Of course, the criminalisation of expressions of hate has shifted the balance away from feeedom of speech towards its suppression.
You can hardy boo-hoo about Labour being caught up in a furore about criminal expressions of hate when many of those suppression of hate laws were passed by Labour....
That the suppressors of free speech are now being hoist upon their own petard is hardly a justification for the suppression of free speech.
No, but it does seem our politics has been utterly overtaken by irony.
I think he has been escalating his tome for so many years he was always going to go nuclear eventually. The mam was right about ed m doing badly, but I don't know his level of insight is air tight even not on April 1st.
The outcry about anti-semitism in the Labour Party has worrying implications for freedom of speech.
Reading the Sunday Times this morning, it seems that expression of opinion (Jews control the world economy, the holocaust was exaggerated) are being bracketed with incitement to violence (“hit her with a brick”) without taken care to distinguish the two.
Expressions of opinion should be protected, however abhorrent, and argued against. The silencing of opinion by demanding that it be banned, or threatening prosecution, is always more dangerous than the opinion itself.
Of course, the criminalisation of expressions of hate has shifted the balance away from feeedom of speech towards its suppression.
Totally wrong. For a start there have also been umpteen incitements to violence against Labour MPs, with Jewish ones baring the brunt - Ruth Smeeth received police protection.
Secondly, in relation to Labour, whether or not someone has committed an arrestable offence is immaterial, hence the lack of distinction. It's that it's astonishing that under Corbyn's leadership Labour, a supposedly anti-racist party, has gained a significant core of members who are out and out racists, and a much larger one who are prepared to excuse such behaviour - many of whom specifically use the leader to justify their behaviour. That's terrifying and doesn't relate to free speech - as the David Irving case showed, he was allowed to deny the holocaust, what he wasn't allowed to do was silence those who called him a racist who should have no place in public life for doing so.
I don't know what is more terrifying this morning. The fact that her majesty's opposition is now riddled with out-and-out racists, or the fact that the party won't deal with this because to do so would be seen as an attack on the anointed one.
As someone said yesterday, how are these left wing thugs going to react when Jezza is in No. 10 and is criticised every working day?
Oh wait... we know how they will react. Ask Laura K at the BBC.
I wonder what Theresa and Phillip are talking about as they hike in Snowdonia. Last year's early election was such a whizz-bang idea that it will take a lot to top it.
Not sure the Emma Lewell-Buck vs South Shields CLP is much to do with Momentum - MPs falling out with the CLP is a longstanding tradition. Nor is Political Education Officer a scary new role, like Nick I have been one before Momentum was a twinkle in Jon Lansman's eye.
As for the law vs leaving the EU - people need to let it go. Even if hard evidence came out that Nigel Farage AND Boris (Piccaninnies and Watermelon Smiles no evidence of racism in the Tory Party) Johnson were Russian agents executing Putin's plot to fracture the EU, people would STILL say "we voted leave, shut up"
Had a lively discussion with my Essicksinnit brother in law yesterday, an enthusiastic leaver. Like so many leavers he didn't vote for a specific issue other than "something needs to change". He won't be told that he was lied to by an overspend. Gina Millar needs to find a new hobby
Have you read the Boris article to which you refer? Do you know what it said?
It is maddening ironic when people make the reference but haven’t read the article...
Yes of course I read it - its appalling. Lets widen it out:
"It is said that the Queen has come to love the Commonwealth, partly because it supplies her with regular cheering crowds of flag-waving piccaninnies" and "They say he is shortly off to the Congo. No doubt the AK47s will fall silent, and the pangas will stop their hacking of human flesh, and the tribal warriors will all break out in watermelon smiles to see the big white chief touch down in his big white British taxpayer-funded bird."
He isn't quoting anyone else, he is speaking as himself. Read it in his voice and its authentic Pfeffel.
He is describing the attitudes of a subset of the international aid community
Yes, the international aid community is noted for using terms like piccaninnies and water melon smiles. Famous for it.
I think he has been escalating his tome for so many years he was always going to go nuclear eventually. The mam was right about ed m doing badly, but I don't know his level of insight is air tight even not on April 1st.
Except he is damned right about the current situation.
I wonder what Theresa and Phillip are talking about as they hike in Snowdonia. Last year's early election was such a whizz-bang idea that it will take a lot to top it.
Not implementing the Brexit Referendum?
"Oh Phillip, it's just too difficult. I'm going to call it off...."
Not sure the Emma Lewell-Buck vs South Shields CLP is much to do with Momentum - MPs falling out with the CLP is a longstanding tradition. Nor is Political Education Officer a scary new role, like Nick I have been one before Momentum was a twinkle in Jon Lansman's eye.
As for the law vs leaving the EU - people need to let it go. Even if hard evidence came out that Nigel Farage AND Boris (Piccaninnies and Watermelon Smiles no evidence of racism in the Tory Party) Johnson were Russian agents executing Putin's plot to fracture the EU, people would STILL say "we voted leave, shut up"
Had a lively discussion with my Essicksinnit brother in law yesterday, an enthusiastic leaver. Like so many leavers he didn't vote for a specific issue other than "something needs to change". He won't be told that he was lied to by an overspend. Gina Millar needs to find a new hobby
Her original challenge re A50 was a worthy and useful one, I say that as a leaver.
Indeed. It closed off a number of avenues that could be used to undermine the decision to leave the EU, including what is now trying to be alleged about campaign spending nearly two years later.
Point of order but that's not how it works. If you're a member of such s group then you may see content but Facebook filters the content you see by a combination of what you interact with and what's popular. If you don't interact with someone or something then the posts tend to drop off your newsfeed.
Yes - but there is zero way that they can have looked at the Facebook feeds of those involved to state with any confidence that none of the abusive material had ever made it through the filters. It is just not possible.
And so it would have been far better to have said
"Labour also told the Sunday Times that no-one in Mr Corbyn or Mr McDonnell's offices has posted or endorsed anti-Semitic or abusive messages."
As there is a fair chance that they could have established this - though the endorsement part is far harder to demonstrate beyond reasonable doubt. As you don't have to click 'like' to actually like a post.
Morning all,
You are missing the use of Hard Left Logic. It is a fact that no one in the two leaders officers saw any such material, because if they had seen it, they would have removed themselves from the list/group. QED.
Labour desperately need to hire an external PR company specialising in social media, to go though all these groups, get the dodgy ones shut down and monitor the rest 24/7.
I was astonished after the first dodgy groups he belonged to were raised that his office did not do just that. Apparently it might be trickier to see all the groups ever casually joined than I thought, but it surely could be done, and it shows a bit of effort, if not much.
Absolutely. I work with a load of people who do this sort of thing for a living. It would cost only four figures to go through Corbyn’s Facebook and Twitter accounts with a fine tooth comb.
The problem is that those currently doing that work are Corbyn loyalists rather than PR and marketing professionals. As @SouthamObserver alluded to upthread, a lot of the Corbyn loyalists just don’t understand what antisemitism is and why it’s a problem.
One of the reasons that large companies use external PR agencies, is that in the middle of a crisis they can tell company bosses that they’re being idiots without losing their own jobs over it.
Not sure the Emma Lewell-Buck vs South Shields CLP is much to do with Momentum - MPs falling out with the CLP is a longstanding tradition. Nor is Political Education Officer a scary new role, like Nick I have been one before Momentum was a twinkle in Jon Lansman's eye.
As for the law vs leaving the EU - people need to let it go. Even if hard evidence came out that Nigel Farage AND Boris (Piccaninnies and Watermelon Smiles no evidence of racism in the Tory Party) Johnson were Russian agents executing Putin's plot to fracture the EU, people would STILL say "we voted leave, shut up"
Had a lively discussion with my Essicksinnit brother in law yesterday, an enthusiastic leaver. Like so many leavers he didn't vote for a specific issue other than "something needs to change". He won't be told that he was lied to by an overspend. Gina Millar needs to find a new hobby
Have you read the Boris article to which you refer? Do you know what it said?
It is maddening ironic when people make the reference but haven’t read the article...
Yes of course I read it - its appalling. Lets widen it out:
"It is said that the Queen has come to love the Commonwealth, partly because it supplies her with regular cheering crowds of flag-waving piccaninnies" and "They say he is shortly off to the Congo. No doubt the AK47s will fall silent, and the pangas will stop their hacking of human flesh, and the tribal warriors will all break out in watermelon smiles to see the big white chief touch down in his big white British taxpayer-funded bird."
He isn't quoting anyone else, he is speaking as himself. Read it in his voice and its authentic Pfeffel.
He is describing the attitudes of a subset of the international aid community
Context is all. And the context is that Johnson claimed Obama was anti-British because his Dad was Kenyan, endorsed James Goldsmith’s dogwhistle campaign agaist Sadiq Khan in the London mayoral election, dogwhistled his own way through the EU referendum and gave a voice to open racists while he was editor of the Spectator (see Taki). Like Corbynistas, people on his side of the political divide will always find excuses for him.
Not sure the Emma Lewell-Buck vs South Shields CLP is much to do with Momentum - MPs falling out with the CLP is a longstanding tradition. Nor is Political Education Officer a scary new role, like Nick I have been one before Momentum was a twinkle in Jon Lansman's eye.
As for the law vs leaving the EU - people need to let it go. Even if hard evidence came out that Nigel Farage AND Boris (Piccaninnies and Watermelon Smiles no evidence of racism in the Tory Party) Johnson were Russian agents executing Putin's plot to fracture the EU, people would STILL say "we voted leave, shut up"
Had a lively discussion with my Essicksinnit brother in law yesterday, an enthusiastic leaver. Like so many leavers he didn't vote for a specific issue other than "something needs to change". He won't be told that he was lied to by an overspend. Gina Millar needs to find a new hobby
Have you read the Boris article to which you refer? Do you know what it said?
It is maddening ironic when people make the reference but haven’t read the article...
Yes of course I read it - its appalling. Lets widen it out:
"It is said that the Queen has come to love the Commonwealth, partly because it supplies her with regular cheering crowds of flag-waving piccaninnies" and "They say he is shortly off to the Congo. No doubt the AK47s will fall silent, and the pangas will stop their hacking of human flesh, and the tribal warriors will all break out in watermelon smiles to see the big white chief touch down in his big white British taxpayer-funded bird."
He isn't quoting anyone else, he is speaking as himself. Read it in his voice and its authentic Pfeffel.
He is describing the attitudes of a subset of the international aid community
Yes, the international aid community is noted for using terms like piccaninnies and water melon smiles. Famous for it.
"Attitudes" =/= "words"
Using offensive words to characterise the attitudes of those who simply wouldn't use them says rather more about Johnson than the international aid community, whatever its faults.
He is a prize pillock (an expression I am sure is not alien to him).
Not sure the Emma Lewell-Buck vs South Shields CLP is much to do with Momentum - MPs falling out with the CLP is a longstanding tradition. Nor is Political Education Officer a scary new role, like Nick I have been one before Momentum was a twinkle in Jon Lansman's eye.
As for the law vs leaving the EU - people need to let it go. Even if hard evidence came out that Nigel Farage AND Boris (Piccaninnies and Watermelon Smiles no evidence of racism in the Tory Party) Johnson were Russian agents executing Putin's plot to fracture the EU, people would STILL say "we voted leave, shut up"
Had a lively discussion with my Essicksinnit brother in law yesterday, an enthusiastic leaver. Like so many leavers he didn't vote for a specific issue other than "something needs to change". He won't be told that he was lied to by an overspend. Gina Millar needs to find a new hobby
Have you read the Boris article to which you refer? Do you know what it said?
It is maddening ironic when people make the reference but haven’t read the article...
Yes of course I read it - its appalling. Lets widen it out:
"It is said that the Queen has come to love the Commonwealth, partly because it supplies her with regular cheering crowds of flag-waving piccaninnies" and "They say he is shortly off to the Congo. No doubt the AK47s will fall silent, and the pangas will stop their hacking of human flesh, and the tribal warriors will all break out in watermelon smiles to see the big white chief touch down in his big white British taxpayer-funded bird."
He isn't quoting anyone else, he is speaking as himself. Read it in his voice and its authentic Pfeffel.
He is describing the attitudes of a subset of the international aid community
Yes, the international aid community is noted for using terms like piccaninnies and water melon smiles. Famous for it.
"Attitudes" =/= "words"
Using offensive words to characterise the attitudes of those who simply wouldn't use them says rather more about Johnson than the international aid community, whatever its faults.
He is a prize pillock (an expression I am sure is not alien to him).
If we are to use terms he has used against him, I'd prefer bloviating homunculus.
I wonder what Theresa and Phillip are talking about as they hike in Snowdonia. Last year's early election was such a whizz-bang idea that it will take a lot to top it.
I thought that the role of Political Education Officer sounded very interesting and well suited to a PPE wonk. Then I discovered that it merely involves arranging some guest speakers and thought again.
Oh, and a happy body-snatching day to the Christian PBers. A happy gorge on chocolate day to everyone else.
Not sure the Emma Lewell-Buck vs South Shields CLP is much to do with Momentum - MPs falling out with the CLP is a longstanding tradition. Nor is Political Education Officer a scary new role, like Nick I have been one before Momentum was a twinkle in Jon Lansman's eye.
As for the law vs leaving the EU - people need to let it go. Even if hard evidence came out that Nigel Farage AND Boris (Piccaninnies and Watermelon Smiles no evidence of racism in the Tory Party) Johnson were Russian agents executing Putin's plot to fracture the EU, people would STILL say "we voted leave, shut up"
Had a lively discussion with my Essicksinnit brother in law yesterday, an enthusiastic leaver. Like so many leavers he didn't vote for a specific issue other than "something needs to change". He won't be told that he was lied to by an overspend. Gina Millar needs to find a new hobby
Have you read the Boris article to which you refer? Do you know what it said?
It is maddening ironic when people make the reference but haven’t read the article...
Yes of course I read it - its appalling. Lets widen it out:
"It is said that the Queen has come to love the Commonwealth, partly because it supplies her with regular cheering crowds of flag-waving piccaninnies" and "They say he is shortly off to the Congo. No doubt the AK47s will fall silent, and the pangas will stop their hacking of human flesh, and the tribal warriors will all break out in watermelon smiles to see the big white chief touch down in his big white British taxpayer-funded bird."
He isn't quoting anyone else, he is speaking as himself. Read it in his voice and its authentic Pfeffel.
He is describing the attitudes of a subset of the international aid community
Context is all. And the context is that Johnson claimed Obama was anti-British because his Dad was Kenyan, endorsed James Goldsmith’s dogwhistle campaign agaist Sadiq Khan in the London mayoral election, dogwhistled his own way through the EU referendum and gave a voice to open racists while he was editor of the Spectator (see Taki). Like Corbynistas, people on his side of the political divide will always find excuses for him.
That must have been a long article!
(and Taki - although I found him tedious - was something of a Spectator institution so harsh to blame Johnson for not sacking him)
Not sure the Emma Lewell-Buck vs South Shields CLP is much to do with Momentum - MPs falling out with the CLP is a longstanding tradition. Nor is Political Education Officer a scary new role, like Nick I have been one before Momentum was a twinkle in Jon Lansman's eye.
As for the law vs leaving the EU - people need to let it go. Even if hard evidence came out that Nigel Farage AND Boris (Piccaninnies and Watermelon Smiles no evidence of racism in the Tory Party) Johnson were Russian agents executing Putin's plot to fracture the EU, people would STILL say "we voted leave, shut up"
Had a lively discussion with my Essicksinnit brother in law yesterday, an enthusiastic leaver. Like so many leavers he didn't vote for a specific issue other than "something needs to change". He won't be told that he was lied to by an overspend. Gina Millar needs to find a new hobby
Have you read the Boris article to which you refer? Do you know what it said?
It is maddening ironic when people make the reference but haven’t read the article...
Yes of course I read it - its appalling. Lets widen it out:
"It is said that the Queen has come to love the Commonwealth, partly because it supplies her with regular cheering crowds of flag-waving piccaninnies" and "They say he is shortly off to the Congo. No doubt the AK47s will fall silent, and the pangas will stop their hacking of human flesh, and the tribal warriors will all break out in watermelon smiles to see the big white chief touch down in his big white British taxpayer-funded bird."
He isn't quoting anyone else, he is speaking as himself. Read it in his voice and its authentic Pfeffel.
He is describing the attitudes of a subset of the international aid community
Yes, the international aid community is noted for using terms like piccaninnies and water melon smiles. Famous for it.
"Attitudes" =/= "words"
Using offensive words to characterise the attitudes of those who simply wouldn't use them says rather more about Johnson than the international aid community, whatever its faults.
He is a prize pillock (an expression I am sure is not alien to him).
I wonder what Theresa and Phillip are talking about as they hike in Snowdonia. Last year's early election was such a whizz-bang idea that it will take a lot to top it.
Not implementing the Brexit Referendum?
"Oh Phillip, it's just too difficult. I'm going to call it off...."
"...dear, maybe it's a good idea if we walked in silence this year, I don't want this one pinned on me as well!"
Not sure the Emma Lewell-Buck vs South Shields CLP is much to do with Momentum - MPs falling out with the CLP is a longstanding tradition. Nor is Political Education Officer a scary new role, like Nick I have been one before Momentum was a twinkle in Jon Lansman's eye.
As for the law vs leaving the EU - people need to let it go. Even if hard evidence came out that Nigel Farage AND Boris (Piccaninnies and Watermelon Smiles no evidence of racism in the Tory Party) Johnson were Russian agents executing Putin's plot to fracture the EU, people would STILL say "we voted leave, shut up"
Had a lively discussion with my Essicksinnit brother in law yesterday, an enthusiastic leaver. Like so many leavers he didn't vote for a specific issue other than "something needs to change". He won't be told that he was lied to by an overspend. Gina Millar needs to find a new hobby
Have you read the Boris article to which you refer? Do you know what it said?
It is maddening ironic when people make the reference but haven’t read the article...
Yes of course I read it - its appalling. Lets widen it out:
"It is said that the Queen has come to love the Commonwealth, partly because it supplies her with regular cheering crowds of flag-waving piccaninnies" and "They say he is shortly off to the Congo. No doubt the AK47s will fall silent, and the pangas will stop their hacking of human flesh, and the tribal warriors will all break out in watermelon smiles to see the big white chief touch down in his big white British taxpayer-funded bird."
He isn't quoting anyone else, he is speaking as himself. Read it in his voice and its authentic Pfeffel.
He is describing the attitudes of a subset of the international aid community
Yes, the international aid community is noted for using terms like piccaninnies and water melon smiles. Famous for it.
"Attitudes" =/= "words"
Using offensive words to characterise the attitudes of those who simply wouldn't use them says rather more about Johnson than the international aid community, whatever its faults.
He is a prize pillock (an expression I am sure is not alien to him).
I think he has been escalating his tome for so many years he was always going to go nuclear eventually. The mam was right about ed m doing badly, but I don't know his level of insight is air tight even not on April 1st.
It pains me to say it, I wish he wasn't right, but he will be proved so on Corbyn. It's a story that never really erupted as there was so much going on (Brexit, Trump), and with Corbyn winning the narrative was "Useless moderates", but during the 2016 leadership challenge the level of vitriol that was launched by Corbynites and then either ignored, excused or tacitly endorsed by pretty major figures was astonishing. MPs were inundated with hate messages not from the far right, or the odd crank - but Labour members. Corbyn and his cohort did nothing as it would've been politically embarrassing to do so. The same with this. Of course it's not a majority, but it's a significant enough group to practice intimidation against opponents, put up a rent-a-mob for even something hateful and constant harassment of those whose face or ideas don't quite fit. As the stakes get higher, it'll get worse. I met Jewish people on Monday who've said they're as worried about Corbyn losing as winning because they fear thousands of Labour members (as evidenced by recent 'open letters' on Facebook) will blame the Jews. That's how bad it's got for a supposedly anti-racist party.
Then the nice people, who wouldn't dream of engaging in it, excuse it because admitting Corbyn is the problem and enables racism, conspiracist cranks and abuse would mean examining some home truths about what they were prepared to excuse and sweep under the carpet for a few more left wing policies and a leader who fits their false romantic idea about Labour values.
Who was it made the remark about the British Empire and God not trusting the British. I suspect we, the British, don’t realise how our past imperialism has created a culture of suspicion.
I don't know what is more terrifying this morning. The fact that her majesty's opposition is now riddled with out-and-out racists, or the fact that the party won't deal with this because to do so would be seen as an attack on the anointed one.
As someone said yesterday, how are these left wing thugs going to react when Jezza is in No. 10 and is criticised every working day?
Oh wait... we know how they will react. Ask Laura K at the BBC.
It will be just like Trump.
No questioning The Great Leader. Spokesmen explaining why The Great Leader didn't mean what he said. Staff resigning on a weekly basis. Complete silence on important issues and rants about absolute nonsense. And about 350 odd MPs pretending that none of this is happening and The Great Leader is doing a fine job.
Who was it made the remark about the British Empire and God not trusting the British. I suspect we, the British, don’t realise how our past imperialism has created a culture of suspicion.
Nasser: "the sun never sets on the British Empire because God doesn't trust the British in the dark"
Not sure the Emma Lewell-Buck vs South Shields CLP is much to do with Momentum - MPs falling out with the CLP is a longstanding tradition. Nor is Political Education Officer a scary new role, like Nick I have been one before Momentum was a twinkle in Jon Lansman's eye.
As for the law vs leaving the EU - people need to let it go. Even if hard evidence came out that Nigel Farage AND Boris (Piccaninnies and Watermelon Smiles no evidence of racism in the Tory Party) Johnson were Russian agents executing Putin's plot to fracture the EU, people would STILL say "we voted leave, shut up"
Had a lively discussion with my Essicksinnit brother in law yesterday, an enthusiastic leaver. Like so many leavers he didn't vote for a specific issue other than "something needs to change". He won't be told that he was lied to by an overspend. Gina Millar needs to find a new hobby
Have you read the Boris article to which you refer? Do you know what it said?
It is maddening ironic when people make the reference but haven’t read the article...
Yes of course I read it - its appalling. Lets widen it out:
"It is said that the Queen has come to love the Commonwealth, partly because it supplies her with regular cheering crowds of flag-waving piccaninnies" and "They say he is shortly off to the Congo. No doubt the AK47s will fall silent, and the pangas will stop their hacking of human flesh, and the tribal warriors will all break out in watermelon smiles to see the big white chief touch down in his big white British taxpayer-funded bird."
He isn't quoting anyone else, he is speaking as himself. Read it in his voice and its authentic Pfeffel.
He is describing the attitudes of a subset of the international aid community
Yes, the international aid community is noted for using terms like piccaninnies and water melon smiles. Famous for it.
"Attitudes" =/= "words"
Using offensive words to characterise the attitudes of those who simply wouldn't use them says rather more about Johnson than the international aid community, whatever its faults.
He is a prize pillock (an expression I am sure is not alien to him).
If we are to use terms he has used against him, I'd prefer bloviating homunculus.
Given his girth, and in the interests of accuracy, overinflated pig's bladder would be nearer the mark ?
Not sure the Emma Lewell-Buck vs South Shields CLP is much to do with Momentum - MPs falling out with the CLP is a longstanding tradition. Nor is Political Education Officer a scary new role, like Nick I have been one before Momentum was a twinkle in Jon Lansman's eye.
As for the law vs leaving the EU - people need to let it go. Even if hard evidence came out that Nigel Farage AND Boris (Piccaninnies and Watermelon Smiles no evidence of racism in the Tory Party) Johnson were Russian agents executing Putin's plot to fracture the EU, people would STILL say "we voted leave, shut up"
Had a lively discussion with my Essicksinnit brother in law yesterday, an enthusiastic leaver. Like so many leavers he didn't vote for a specific issue other than "something needs to change". He won't be told that he was lied to by an overspend. Gina Millar needs to find a new hobby
Have you read the Boris article to which you refer? Do you know what it said?
It is maddening ironic when people make the reference but haven’t read the article...
Yes of course I read it - its appalling. Lets widen it out:
"It is said that the Queen has come to love the Commonwealth, partly because it supplies her with regular cheering crowds of flag-waving piccaninnies" and "They say he is shortly off to the Congo. No doubt the AK47s will fall silent, and the pangas will stop their hacking of human flesh, and the tribal warriors will all break out in watermelon smiles to see the big white chief touch down in his big white British taxpayer-funded bird."
He isn't quoting anyone else, he is speaking as himself. Read it in his voice and its authentic Pfeffel.
He is describing the attitudes of a subset of the international aid community
Context is all. And the context is that Johnson claimed Obama was anti-British because his Dad was Kenyan, endorsed James Goldsmith’s dogwhistle campaign agaist Sadiq Khan in the London mayoral election, dogwhistled his own way through the EU referendum and gave a voice to open racists while he was editor of the Spectator (see Taki). Like Corbynistas, people on his side of the political divide will always find excuses for him.
Not everyone. In just the same way that Socialism.is not well served by Corbyn, Brexit and Right of Centre politics in general are not well served by Johnson.
I go back to what I said in 2016, Michael Gove performed a great act of sacrifice for the good of the country when he destroyed Johnson's attempts to become PM.
Not sure the Emma Lewell-Buck vs South Shields CLP is much to do with Momentum - MPs falling out with the CLP is a longstanding tradition. Nor is Political Education Officer a scary new role, like Nick I have been one before Momentum was a twinkle in Jon Lansman's eye.
Had a lively discussion with my Essicksinnit brother in law yesterday, an enthusiastic leaver. Like so many leavers he didn't vote for a specific issue other than "something needs to change". He won't be told that he was lied to by an overspend. Gina Millar needs to find a new hobby
Have you read the Boris article to which you refer? Do you know what it said?
It is maddening ironic when people make the reference but haven’t read the article...
He isn't quoting anyone else, he is speaking as himself. Read it in his voice and its authentic Pfeffel.
He is describing the attitudes of a subset of the international aid community
Context is all. And the context is that Johnson claimed Obama was anti-British because his Dad was Kenyan, endorsed James Goldsmith’s dogwhistle campaign agaist Sadiq Khan in the London mayoral election, dogwhistled his own way through the EU referendum and gave a voice to open racists while he was editor of the Spectator (see Taki). Like Corbynistas, people on his side of the political divide will always find excuses for him.
I thought the Obama comments were disgraceful. A President who went much further than he needed to on he Scottish referendum and was never given any credit for it. Was his Brexit intervention well made? No. But equally I cannot believe that it was done without the endorsement of No.10 who let's not forget were running Project Fear 2. But Boris wasn't going to go after Cameron directly was he? There was a curious old pals act between them. The pernicious thing with Boris is that it isn't really offensive because it'snot meant to be taken seriously, nod and a wink. Except it is meant to be taken seriously by a particular group of people whilst we all assume that Boris is having a laugh.
There was a reasonable point to be made. That the United States jealously guarded its sovereignty and should respect Britain for wanting the same. But Boris couldn't leave it there could he. And he knew Cameron would never unleash the forces of hell on him. For all the desire to win on the pitch, it's only a game after all.
The outcry about anti-semitism in the Labour Party has worrying implications for freedom of speech.
Reading the Sunday Times this morning, it seems that expression of opinion (Jews control the world economy, the holocaust was exaggerated) are being bracketed with incitement to violence (“hit her with a brick”) without taken care to distinguish the two.
Expressions of opinion should be protected, however abhorrent, and argued against. The silencing of opinion by demanding that it be banned, or threatening prosecution, is always more dangerous than the opinion itself.
Of course, the criminalisation of expressions of hate has shifted the balance away from feeedom of speech towards its suppression.
Totally wrong. For a start there have also been umpteen incitements to violence against Labour MPs, with Jewish ones baring the brunt - Ruth Smeeth received police protection.
Oh wait... we know how they will react. Ask Laura K at the BBC.
Yeah. This is the big worry - and I say this as someone who has supported Labour all my life, and still would under almost any other leader. The cranks and conspiracists he has encouraged, of which anti-Semitism is a part, are bad enough when the stakes are internal Labour rows on Facebook, who knows what happens when Corbyn fails (as all PMs do - and would be an even bigger problem for him due to Brexit) to achieve promises in government and then, as he has done over the thuggery, entirely refuse to take any personal responsibility. There are Jewish people worried that they'll be targeted by Labour supporters if Labour loses the next election, and will if they win when inevitably Corbyn gets into a mess. An astonishing place for an anti-racist party to end up - and what's almost as bad is that many good people, who aren't frothing loons, have their heads in the sand and still can't admit that Corbyn is personally culpable for taking the party to the dark edges of politics.
Who was it made the remark about the British Empire and God not trusting the British. I suspect we, the British, don’t realise how our past imperialism has created a culture of suspicion.
Nasser: "the sun never sets on the British Empire because God doesn't trust the British in the dark"
And it was Nasser who really ended the Empire by nationalising the Suez Canal.
Who was it made the remark about the British Empire and God not trusting the British. I suspect we, the British, don’t realise how our past imperialism has created a culture of suspicion.
Nasser: "the sun never sets on the British Empire because God doesn't trust the British in the dark"
And it was Nasser who really ended the Empire by nationalising the Suez Canal.
Nah - he was just the little boy who stated the obvious
I think he has been escalating his tome for so many years he was always going to go nuclear eventually. The mam was right about ed m doing badly, but I don't know his level of insight is air tight even not on April 1st.
It pains me to say it, I wish he wasn't right, but he will be proved so on Corbyn. It's a story that never really erupted as there was so much going on (Brexit, Trump), and with Corbyn winning the narrative was "Useless moderates", but during the 2016 leadership challenge the level of vitriol that was launched by Corbynites and then either ignored, excused or tacitly endorsed by pretty major figures was astonishing. MPs were inundated with hate messages not from the far right, or the odd crank - but Labour members. Corbyn and his cohort did nothing as it would've been politically embarrassing to do so. The same with this. Of course it's not a majority, but it's a significant enough group to practice intimidation against opponents, put up a rent-a-mob for even something hateful and constant harassment of those whose face or ideas don't quite fit. As the stakes get higher, it'll get worse. I met Jewish people on Monday who've said they're as worried about Corbyn losing as winning because they fear thousands of Labour members (as evidenced by recent 'open letters' on Facebook) will blame the Jews. That's how bad it's got for a supposedly anti-racist party.
Then the nice people, who wouldn't dream of engaging in it, excuse it because admitting Corbyn is the problem and enables racism, conspiracist cranks and abuse would mean examining some home truths about what they were prepared to excuse and sweep under the carpet for a few more left wing policies and a leader who fits their false romantic idea about Labour values.
Not sure how the Corbyn is the problem narrative plays in with everything that has happened over the last few years. The Scottish and Brexit referendums stirred up some serious emotions, an MP even got killed. Dianne Abbott receives more abuse than almost any other MPs and she is one of Corbyn's most prominent supporters. Corbyn himself receives death threats.
It doesn't fit into the good vs evil narrative I realise but reality rarely does....
The outcry about anti-semitism in the Labour Party has worrying implications for freedom of speech.
Reading the Sunday Times this morning, it seems that expression of opinion (Jews control the world economy, the holocaust was exaggerated) are being bracketed with incitement to violence (“hit her with a brick”) without taken care to distinguish the two.
Expressions of opinion should be protected, however abhorrent, and argued against. The silencing of opinion by demanding that it be banned, or threatening prosecution, is always more dangerous than the opinion itself.
Of course, the criminalisation of expressions of hate has shifted the balance away from feeedom of speech towards its suppression.
Totally wrong. For a start there have also been umpteen incitements to violence against Labour MPs, with Jewish ones baring the brunt - Ruth Smeeth received police protection.
Secondly, in relation to Labour, whether or not someone has committed an arrestable offence is immaterial, hence the lack of distinction. It's that it's astonishing that under Corbyn's leadership Labour, a supposedly anti-racist party, has gained a significant core of members who are out and out racists, and a much larger one who are prepared to excuse such behaviour - many of whom specifically use the leader to justify their behaviour. That's terrifying and doesn't relate to free speech - as the David Irving case showed, he was allowed to deny the holocaust, what he wasn't allowed to do was silence those who called him a racist who should have no place in public life for doing so.
I’m merely suggesting that opinion, however abhorrent, should be allowed and one can choose whether to oppose that opinion through debate and, in a political party, by standings against those with whom you disagree or leaving if the attitudes you find abhorrent are in the majority. Incitements to violence should not be tolerated and should be exposed by party leaders and a free press and dealt with.
Edit: my opinion (there you go) is that the press, well the Sunday Times, is not drawing a distinction and should do so.
Mr. Z, my RS teacher used to tell what he called Jewish jokes (they were just so bad they were... well... bad, but memorable). The Sadducees were sad, you see, because they didn't believe in life after death.
Likewise: a vicar is cycling round his parish visiting his flock, and discovers his bike has been stolen. He is halfway through delivering a sermon, going through the Ten Commandments, and just about to reach the commandment about not stealing when he remembers where he left his bike (the Seventh is not to commit adultery.
But they work. As per when my French teacher told me the French only have one egg for breakfast because one egg is un oeuf.
Who was it made the remark about the British Empire and God not trusting the British. I suspect we, the British, don’t realise how our past imperialism has created a culture of suspicion.
Nasser: "the sun never sets on the British Empire because God doesn't trust the British in the dark"
And it was Nasser who really ended the Empire by nationalising the Suez Canal.
No it wasnt. It was our erstwhile allies the Americans, who made ending the Empire part of the price for their assistance during and after WW2.
The seamless way that PB can go from fudging Bojo's racist terminology to getting all sanctimonious on the ass of a Jewish person recounting a joke is almost..ALMOST..impressive.
....and three days later they're still hunting the anti-semites.
An old Jewish joke (relevant though not very funny)
Two strangers sharing a sleeping carriage on the Vladivostok Express
Abe-I was just about to send a postcard to my daughter but would you believe it...I've forgotten my pen
Victor-Don't worry I've got one you can use
Abe-and in the rush I forgot to buy a postcard...
Victor-Well that's lucky I have three and I only need two
Abe-Thank you so much....
Victor-It's my pleasure...
Abe-I can't believe it but my wife seems to have forgotten to pack my pyjamas....
Victor-Don't worry old boy I've got a spare pair and you're more than welcome to use them...
Abe-That's most generous..
Abe-Would you believe it-she's also forgotten to pack my toothbrush! I wonder if I could use yours?
Victor-I'm really sorry but I must say no.....
A week later Abe arrives home and is greeted by his wife.
"Well Abe how was the trip?".
Abe- It wasn't too bad..... but DID I meet an anti Semite!
If that joke was told in public by someone senior from any political party what do you think the consequences would be?
They would be called on to resign, and rightly so
Well that would be very sad and shows that the old maxim that only a Jew should be allowed to determine what constitutes anti semitism still holds. It is in fact a classic Jewish joke and has the ingredients of self mocking and paranoia that are two of the distinctive features of the 'Jewish joke'
During the last election when Milliband was leader I only read one thing that was unpleasantly anti-semitic (and identified by several people as such) and it was from the pen of Quentin Letts.
Who was it made the remark about the British Empire and God not trusting the British. I suspect we, the British, don’t realise how our past imperialism has created a culture of suspicion.
Nasser: "the sun never sets on the British Empire because God doesn't trust the British in the dark"
And it was Nasser who really ended the Empire by nationalising the Suez Canal.
No it wasnt. It was our erstwhile allies the Americans, who made ending the Empire part of the price for their assistance during and after WW2.
....with the agenda of themselves filling the markets this created.
Not sure the Emma Lewell-Buck vs South Shields CLP is much to do with Momentum - MPs falling out with the CLP is a longstanding tradition. Nor is Political Education Officer a scary new role, like Nick I have been one before Momentum was a twinkle in Jon Lansman's eye.
As for the law vs leaving the EU - people need to let it go. Even if hard evidence came out that Nigel Farage AND Boris (Piccaninnies and Watermelon Smiles no evidence of racism in the Tory Party) Johnson were Russian agents executing Putin's plot to fracture the EU, people would STILL say "we voted leave, shut up"
Had a lively discussion with my Essicksinnit brother in law yesterday, an enthusiastic leaver. Like so many leavers he didn't vote for a specific issue other than "something needs to change". He won't be told that he was lied to by an overspend. Gina Millar needs to find a new hobby
Have you read the Boris article to which you refer? Do you know what it said?
It is maddening ironic when people make the reference but haven’t read the article...
Yes of course I read it - its appalling. Lets widen it out:
"It is said that the Queen has come to love the Commonwealth, partly because it supplies her with regular cheering crowds of flag-waving piccaninnies" and "They say he is shortly off to the Congo. No doubt the AK47s will fall silent, and the pangas will stop their hacking of human flesh, and the tribal warriors will all break out in watermelon smiles to see the big white chief touch down in his big white British taxpayer-funded bird."
He isn't quoting anyone else, he is speaking as himself. Read it in his voice and its authentic Pfeffel.
He is describing the attitudes of a subset of the international aid community
Context is all. And the context is that Johnson claimed Obama was anti-British because his Dad was Kenyan, endorsed James Goldsmith’s dogwhistle campaign agaist Sadiq Khan in the London mayoral election, dogwhistled his own way through the EU referendum and gave a voice to open racists while he was editor of the Spectator (see Taki). Like Corbynistas, people on his side of the political divide will always find excuses for him.
Not everyone. In just the same way that Socialism.is not well served by Corbyn, Brexit and Right of Centre politics in general are not well served by Johnson.
I go back to what I said in 2016, Michael Gove performed a great act of sacrifice for the good of the country when he destroyed Johnson's attempts to become PM.
Not sure the Emma Lewell-Buck vs South Shields CLP is much to do with Momentum - MPs falling out with the CLP is a longstanding tradition. Nor is Political Education Officer a scary new role, like Nick I have been one before Momentum was a twinkle in Jon Lansman's eye.
As for the law vs leaving the EU - people need to let it go. Even if hard evidence came out that Nigel Farage AND Boris (Piccaninnies and Watermelon Smiles no evidence of racism in the Tory Party) Johnson were Russian agents executing Putin's plot to fracture the EU, people would STILL say "we voted leave, shut up"
Had a lively discussion with my Essicksinnit brother in law yesterday, an enthusiastic leaver. Like so many leavers he didn't vote for a specific issue other than "something needs to change". He won't be told that he was lied to by an overspend. Gina Millar needs to find a new hobby
Have you read the Boris article to which you refer? Do you know what it said?
It is maddening ironic when people make the reference but haven’t read the article...
Yes of course I read it - its appalling. Lets widen it out:
"It is said that the Queen has come to love the Commonwealth, partly because it supplies her with regular cheering crowds of flag-waving piccaninnies" and "They say he is shortly off to the Congo. No doubt the AK47s will fall silent, and the pangas will stop their hacking of human flesh, and the tribal warriors will all break out in watermelon smiles to see the big white chief touch down in his big white British taxpayer-funded bird."
He isn't quoting anyone else, he is speaking as himself. Read it in his voice and its authentic Pfeffel.
He is describing the attitudes of a subset of the international aid community
Not everyone. In just the same way that Socialism.is not well served by Corbyn, Brexit and Right of Centre politics in general are not well served by Johnson.
I go back to what I said in 2016, Michael Gove performed a great act of sacrifice for the good of the country when he destroyed Johnson's attempts to become PM.
Fair point, Richard.
However it does not distract from the fact that Gove is a useless balloon. PS: he has more faces than the town knock
The seamless way that PB can go from fudging Bojo's racist terminology to getting all sanctimonious on the ass of a Jewish person recounting a joke is almost..ALMOST..impressive.
It's that very special lack of self-awareness that's just so notme.
That Dan Hodges article is 100% correct. Unfortunately, it’s a Dan Hodges article. Right message, wrong messenger. The Tony Blair curse.
But there is no right messenger. There is no-one who is going to make Labour's anti-semites sit up and go "Fair point". They are too swept up by Corbynism to listen to anybody but Corbyn. And even if he asked them himself, they would just ask "Who nobbled him? It must be the...."
I don't know what is more terrifying this morning. The fact that her majesty's opposition is now riddled with out-and-out racists, or the fact that the party won't deal with this because to do so would be seen as an attack on the anointed one.
As someone said yesterday, how are these left wing thugs going to react when Jezza is in No. 10 and is criticised every working day?
Oh wait... we know how they will react. Ask Laura K at the BBC.
It will be just like Trump.
No questioning The Great Leader. Spokesmen explaining why The Great Leader didn't mean what he said. Staff resigning on a weekly basis. Complete silence on important issues and rants about absolute nonsense. And about 350 odd MPs pretending that none of this is happening and The Great Leader is doing a fine job.
The seamless way that PB can go from fudging Bojo's racist terminology to getting all sanctimonious on the ass of a Jewish person recounting a joke is almost..ALMOST..impressive.
Cracking point, except that I said nothing about the loathsome Bojo , I don't believe roger is Jewish, and I really am genuinely against antisemitism and death camps and stuff, if you can believe such a thing.
That Dan Hodges article is 100% correct. Unfortunately, it’s a Dan Hodges article. Right message, wrong messenger. The Tony Blair curse.
But there is no right messenger. There is no-one who is going to make Labour's anti-semites sit up and go "Fair point". They are too swept up by Corbynism to listen to anybody but Corbyn. And even if he asked them himself, they would just ask "Who nobbled him? It must be the...."
Yep - I know. But because it’s Hodges it makes it easier for those who have chosen to stay silent about what they know is wrong to stay silent.
I wonder what Theresa and Phillip are talking about as they hike in Snowdonia. Last year's early election was such a whizz-bang idea that it will take a lot to top it.
They're probably giving a heartfelt thanks that JC is comfortably ensconced as LOTO.
Not sure the Emma Lewell-Buck vs South Shields CLP is much to do with Momentum - MPs falling out with the CLP is a longstanding tradition. Nor is Political Education Officer a scary new role, like Nick I have been one before Momentum was a twinkle in Jon Lansman's eye.
As for the law vs leaving the EU - people need to let it go. Even if hard evidence came out that Nigel Farage AND Boris (Piccaninnies and Watermelon Smiles no evidence of racism in the Tory Party) Johnson were Russian agents executing Putin's plot to fracture the EU, people would STILL say "we voted leave, shut up"
Had a lively discussion with my Essicksinnit brother in law yesterday, an enthusiastic leaver. Like so many leavers he didn't vote for a specific issue other than "something needs to change". He won't be told that he was lied to by an overspend. Gina Millar needs to find a new hobby
Have you read the Boris article to which you refer? Do you know what it said?
It is maddening ironic when people make the reference but haven’t read the article...
Yes of course I read it - its appalling. Lets widen it out:
"It is said that the Queen has come to love the Commonwealth, partly because it supplies her with regular cheering crowds of flag-waving piccaninnies" and "They say he is shortly off to the Congo. No doubt the AK47s will fall silent, and the pangas will stop their hacking of human flesh, and the tribal warriors will all break out in watermelon smiles to see the big white chief touch down in his big white British taxpayer-funded bird."
He isn't quoting anyone else, he is speaking as himself. Read it in his voice and its authentic Pfeffel.
He is describing the attitudes of a subset of the international aid community
Not everyone. In just the same way that Socialism.is not well served by Corbyn, Brexit and Right of Centre politics in general are not well served by Johnson.
I go back to what I said in 2016, Michael Gove performed a great act of sacrifice for the good of the country when he destroyed Johnson's attempts to become PM.
Fair point, Richard.
I don't think the Obama one is fair. His article simply referenced what others had been saying as one end of a spectrum, without endorsing the belief.
The picanninnies and water melon smiles was grossly crass, however. The problem with Boris is that he is too in love with his own thought process at any time and has an inability to seriously consider other perspectives. He would make a terrible PM as a result.
Not sure the Emma Lewell-Buck vs South Shields CLP is much to do with Momentum - MPs falling out with the CLP is a longstanding tradition. Nor is Political Education Officer a scary new role, like Nick I have been one before Momentum was a twinkle in Jon Lansman's eye.
As for the law vs leaving the EU - people need to let it go. Even if hard evidence came out that Nigel Farage AND Boris (Piccaninnies and Watermelon Smiles no evidence of racism in the Tory Party) Johnson were Russian agents executing Putin's plot to fracture the EU, people would STILL say "we voted leave, shut up"
Had a lively discussion with my Essicksinnit brother in law yesterday, an enthusiastic leaver. Like so many leavers he didn't vote for a specific issue other than "something needs to change". He won't be told that he was lied to by an overspend. Gina Millar needs to find a new hobby
Have you read the Boris article to which you refer? Do you know what it said?
It is maddening ironic when people make the reference but haven’t read the article...
Yes of course I read it - its appalling. Lets widen it out:
"It is said that the Queen has come to love the aking as himself. Read it in his voice and its authentic Pfeffel.
He is describing the attitudes of a subset of the international aid community
Context is all. And the context is that Johnson claimed Obama was anti-British because his Dad was Kenyan, endorsed James Goldsmith’s dogwhistle campaign agaist Sadiq Khan in the London mayoral election, dogwhistled his own way through the EU referendum and gave a voice to open racists while he was editor of the Spectator (see Taki). Like Corbynistas, people on his side of the political divide will always find excuses for him.
Not everyone. In just the same way that Socialism.is not well served by Corbyn, Brexit and Right of Centre politics in general are not well served by Johnson.
I go back to what I said in 2016, Michael Gove performed a great act of sacrifice for the good of the country when he destroyed Johnson's attempts to become PM.
Love him or loathe him Boris Johnson is the only senior Tory with sufficient charisma to win an overall majority against Corbyn in my view. Gove might well back him next time with the promise of being Chancellor as his reward
The seamless way that PB can go from fudging Bojo's racist terminology to getting all sanctimonious on the ass of a Jewish person recounting a joke is almost..ALMOST..impressive.
Cracking point, except that I said nothing about the loathsome Bojo , I don't believe roger is Jewish, and I really am genuinely against antisemitism and death camps and stuff, if you can believe such a thing.
You'll have to get over this thing that posts are all about YOU.
I wonder what Theresa and Phillip are talking about as they hike in Snowdonia. Last year's early election was such a whizz-bang idea that it will take a lot to top it.
They're probably giving a heartfelt thanks that JC is comfortably ensconced as LOTO.
The early election was a good idea. The execution was awful.
I think you've got a general coarsening of debate, encouraged by populists of all types - each of which is responsible for their own "pocket" to use a favoured phrase. As for Diane Abbott - I think it's a separate issue - she received crate loads of abuse for years, mainly because she's an outspoken, black, woman MP. She did so when, publicly at least, she supported Tony Blair. I think all very prominent politicians will attract the odd threat from a crank, something that is possibly worse now thanks to social media.
What's different? There are Facebook groups with thousands of members, under the name of the Labour Party, where the vilest abuse, including racism, is chucked at anyone, MP or member who doesn't share their exact political conviction in the leader. It's endemic within a section of Corbyn's support and that is pretty unprecedented in British political life, furthermore, it's actually been politically beneficial in creating a siege mentality where everyone else is a conspirator rather than having moral agency.
So why is Corbyn the problem? Firstly, because of his long associations with the conspiracist hard left, which has a high incidence of thuggery, anti-Semitism and whether he likes it or not (pre-2015 he seemed perfectly happy), is a figurehead for the jet fuel don't melt steel beams brigade. When he's pulled up on associations like Raed Salah or Paul Eisen, he explains them away as momentary 'regrets' and reasserts his moral credentials. The result? Firstly it' provides legitimacy to those who do think like that - by not being explicit in why he was morally wrong in the past, it's seen as not that bad a sin now - or that any denunciation is a PR exercise. Just as white supremacists think Trump is on their side, the anti-Semitic crazies on the left understandably look at Corbyn's past palling around with them and are satisfied that he's really ok by them. Secondly, by continually asserting his own blamelessness rather than admitting profound personal error and treating this as a scourge that's somehow incidental, he fuels the idea that this is all a conspiracy against him. If Jeremy didn't do anything wrong, if it's just a few 'pockets', why do people keep attacking him over it? That in turn further fuels the problem. Thirdly, there's a problem with any movement that believes in its own absolute moral unimpeachability, in that the fanatics have to find a scapegoat when things are imperfect, and it's those whose faces or views don't fit with the narrative they believe about themselves. See Saint-Just in the French Revolution.
I think he has been escalating his tome for so many years he was always going to go nuclear eventually. The mam was right about ed m doing badly, but I don't know his level of insight is air tight even not on April 1st.
It pains me to say it, I wish he wasn't right, but he will be proved so on Corbyn. It's a story that never really erupted as there was so much going on (Brexit, Trump), and with Corbyn winning the narrative was "Useless moderates", but during the 2016 leadership challenge the level of vitriol that was launched by Corbynites and then either ignored, excused or tacitly endorsed by pretty major figures was astonishing. MPs were inundated with hate messages not from the far right, or the odd crank - but Labour members. Corbyn and his cohort did nothing as it would've been politically embarrassing to do so. The same with this. Of course it's not a majority, but it's a significant enough group to practice intimidation against opponents, put up a rent-a-mob for even something hateful and constant harassment of those whose face or ideas don't quite fit. As the stakes get higher, it'll get worse. I met Jewish people on Monday who've said they're as worried about Corbyn losing as winning because they fear thousands of Labour members (as evidenced by recent 'open letters' on Facebook) will blame the Jews. That's how bad it's got for a supposedly anti-racist party.
Then the nice people, who wouldn't dream of engaging in it, excuse it because admitting Corbyn is the problem and enables racism, conspiracist cranks and abuse would mean examining some home truths about what they were prepared to excuse and sweep under the carpet for a few more left wing policies and a leader who fits their false romantic idea about Labour values.
+1 Too many in the party and in some of the media continue with the pretence that he himself is innocent and even those who know he isn't put party survival ahead of decency.
....and three days later they're still hunting the anti-semites.
An old Jewish joke (relevant though not very funny)
Two strangers sharing a sleeping carriage on the Vladivostok Express
Abe-I was just about to send a postcard to my daughter but would you believe it...I've forgotten my pen
Victor-Don't worry I've got one you can use
Abe-and in the rush I forgot to buy a postcard...
Victor-Well that's lucky I have three and I only need two
Abe-Thank you so much....
Victor-It's my pleasure...
Abe-I can't believe it but my wife seems to have forgotten to pack my pyjamas....
Victor-Don't worry old boy I've got a spare pair and you're more than welcome to use them...
Abe-That's most generous..
Abe-Would you believe it-she's also forgotten to pack my toothbrush! I wonder if I could use yours?
Victor-I'm really sorry but I must say no.....
A week later Abe arrives home and is greeted by his wife.
"Well Abe how was the trip?".
Abe- It wasn't too bad..... but DID I meet an anti Semite!
If that joke was told in public by someone senior from any political party what do you think the consequences would be?
They would be called on to resign, and rightly so
Well that would be very sad and shows that the old maxim that only a Jew should be allowed to determine what constitutes anti semitism still holds. It is in fact a classic Jewish joke and has the ingredients of self mocking and paranoia that are two of the distinctive features of the 'Jewish joke'
During the last election when Milliband was leader I only read one thing that was unpleasantly anti-semitic (and identified by several people as such) and it was from the pen of Quentin Letts.
I presume you take the same view of old jokes about other ethnic groups....we await your offerings.
Incidentally, if any fantasy readers have been considering getting Mark Lawrence's Red Sister, it's just 99p in the UK Amazon Kindle store now. Not sure what the price usually is (sequel, out next month, is £9.99) but I liked the Broken Empire trilogy a lot, so it's worth considering.
Given if the Tories gain no seats and don't lose any they will still be in power but Labour if it gains 50 seats from the Tories will still have 6 fewer MPs than the Tories have now and current polls have the Tories and Labour neck and neck that is not at all surprising
Incidentally, if any fantasy readers have been considering getting Mark Lawrence's Red Sister, it's just 99p in the UK Amazon Kindle store now. Not sure what the price usually is (sequel, out next month, is £9.99) but I liked the Broken Empire trilogy a lot, so it's worth considering.
Much as I like the feel of a real book, now that I have a Kindle it is hard to say no to deal like that.
Given if the Tories gain no seats and don't lose any they will still be in power but Labour if it gains 50 seats from the Tories will still have 6 fewer MPs than the Tories have now and current polls have the Tories and Labour neck and neck that is not at all surprising
If Labour have 6 MPs fewer than the Tories then the SNP will guarantee that its a Labour MP in Downing Street.
general coarsening of debate, encouraged by populists of all types - each of which is responsible for their own "pocket" to use a favoured phrase. As for Diane Abbott - I think it's a separate issue - she received crate loads of abuse for years, mainly because she's an outspoken, black, woman MP. She did so when, publicly at least, she supported Tony Blair. I think all very prominent politicians will attract the odd threat from a crank, something that is possibly worse now thanks to social media.
What's different? There are Facebook groups with thousands of members, under the name of the Labour Party, where the vilest abuse, including racism, is chucked at anyone, MP or member who doesn't share their exact political conviction in the leader. It's endemic within a section of Corbyn's support and that is pretty unprecedented in British political life, furthermore, it's actually been politically beneficial in creating a siege mentality where everyone else is a conspirator rather than having moral agency.
You can't just separate out Dianne Abbot, the abuse for her has got a lot worse in recent years. It isn't just the odd crank either, quite frankly if we can make that dismissive argument against those abusing Abbott we can do it with the much lower numbers abusing other figures.
We can either accept, as she asserts herself, that the internet has made it easier to abuse well known people so as a result everyone gets more abuse, or we can start looking for other reasons. Both could be true, but that still wouldn't alone explain the threats towards Corbyn and others supportive of Corbyn if Corbyn is at fault.
There are cases of Corbyn supporters also documenting the abuse they have suffered if you really think that everything has been one way then you have missed a lot. If you read right wing newspapers I can understand you might get that impression but there has been plenty of back and fore, with many giving as good as they got on both sides.
There has been very strong support and opposition for the leader within the party with both sides making their case, I assume this again is the fault of Corbyn, for instance when he plotted the resignation of a minister during his victory speech back in 2015 and other measures he took to pit the factions in the party against each other?
If the Blairites in the party hadn't taken a war footing from the moment Corbyn became leader there would probably be far less stronger feelings on both sides. They decided the members were wrong and Corbyn shouldn't be leader and both sides got very passionate about the subject when they tried to take him out a year later.
As for the siege mentality it exists on all sides, do you really think the 'moderates' have been clear thinking in their actions the last couple of years? They've been acting on pure emotion and desire just as they accuse Corbynites and Brexiteers of doing.
Given if the Tories gain no seats and don't lose any they will still be in power but Labour if it gains 50 seats from the Tories will still have 6 fewer MPs than the Tories have now and current polls have the Tories and Labour neck and neck that is not at all surprising
If Labour have 6 MPs fewer than the Tories then the SNP will guarantee that its a Labour MP in Downing Street.
Yes but the key focus for the Tories is to hold all their current MPs, providers they do that they will stay in power with the DUP, it is Labour who have to gain Tory seats to get a Labour PM.
The Tories only need 8 gains from Labour and the SNP too for an overall majority, Labour need 64 gains from the Tories and the SNP and Plaid for an overall majority
That Dan Hodges article is 100% correct. Unfortunately, it’s a Dan Hodges article. Right message, wrong messenger. The Tony Blair curse.
Yes but that has always been the case , when ex Labour or against the current leadership write in right wing papers.Many see an ulterior motive .When Blair was in charge many were happy to read Ken Livingstone critisms for example in the sun.
The seamless way that PB can go from fudging Bojo's racist terminology to getting all sanctimonious on the ass of a Jewish person recounting a joke is almost..ALMOST..impressive.
Cracking point, except that I said nothing about the loathsome Bojo , I don't believe roger is Jewish, and I really am genuinely against antisemitism and death camps and stuff, if you can believe such a thing.
You'll have to get over this thing that posts are all about YOU.
I did check, and thought I was the most likely candidate. Happy Easter.
Given if the Tories gain no seats and don't lose any they will still be in power but Labour if it gains 50 seats from the Tories will still have 6 fewer MPs than the Tories have now and current polls have the Tories and Labour neck and neck that is not at all surprising
If Labour have 6 MPs fewer than the Tories then the SNP will guarantee that its a Labour MP in Downing Street.
Yes but the key focus for the Tories is to hold all their current MPs, providers they do that they will stay in power with the DUP, it is Labour who have to gain Tory seats to get a Labour PM.
The Tories only need 8 gains from Labour and the SNP too for an overall majority, Labour need 64 gains from the Tories and the SNP and Plaid for an overall majority
That is the dumbest advice I've ever heard. How often have any government gone into an election and held "all their current MPs".
If that was easily done no government would ever lose office.
The seamless way that PB can go from fudging Bojo's racist terminology to getting all sanctimonious on the ass of a Jewish person recounting a joke is almost..ALMOST..impressive.
Cracking point, except that I said nothing about the loathsome Bojo , I don't believe roger is Jewish, and I really am genuinely against antisemitism and death camps and stuff, if you can believe such a thing.
You'll have to get over this thing that posts are all about YOU.
I did check, and thought I was the most likely candidate. Happy Easter.
Same to you.
By the bye, on the basis of several thing Roger has mentioned in the past, I'd assumed Roger was Jewish. Since I tend to think of that as mostly a positive, I hadn't really thought much more about it. If it's not the case apologies to him, no one likes an identity thrust upon them.
I didn't mean to minimise the abuse Diane Abbott has received. It will obviously have got worse now she's regularly in the public firing line as a frontbencher - but long predates that and the current political issues. My point was, she's always got abuse because she's an outspoken black woman, and that is abhorrent, but has little to do with the current situation within Labour - as far as I'm aware, she's primarily targeted by the far right.
But here you make the mistake I was talking about, and neatly, if unintentionally articulate the problem by assuming Corbyn supporters have moral agency while 'Blairites' have ulterior motives and read 'right-wing papers'. Until Corbyn stood, I thought of myself as on the left of Labour, but unlike many people I knew who he was, who he'd supported and been friends with over the years, that they'd promoted conspiracy theories (anti-Semitic or otherwise) and generally were pretty abhorrent individuals, from the likes of Weyman Bennett, to Galloway and Lindsay German. This isn't, or shouldn't be about 'moderates', etc, but basic common decency. I knew this in 2015, which is why I thought he was, and still is morally unfit to be leader because I feared exactly this would happen. While a student I had met some of these people, and been pretty horrified by some of them. That's why I've long opposed Corbyn. For exactly this reason - there is a conspiracist core to his support that really is toxic, and which he refuses to address because he himself has long been implicated in encouraging and enabling it by those and the views he chooses to endorse.
Of course people have a pop from both sides, but you saying that smacks of exactly the kind of whataboutery that's the problem. There aren't moderate Facebook groups with thousands of members signing letters calling an ethnic group's understandable concerns as 'smears' amd conspiracy. We've reached a stage a significant section of the Labour membership think it's perfectly ok to view their own MPs as traitors deserving of threats and abuse for speaking out on a moral issue - and try and get CLPs to pass motions attacking those who speak out. That's unprecedented and terrifying, and should be a source of shame even to those who broadly support Corbyn's agenda.
If only this were about moderate tactics, and failures, which I'll agree have been utterly flawed from the start. But this is something darker and far worse - and will only deteriorate as people who back Corbyn for what you might call, the right reasons - frustration with the status quo, desire for more radical spending plans, refuse to address it by engaging in whataboutery and blaming others for it.
I didn't mean to make it sound like you dismissed the abuse she got but she is getting abused for much the same reason the other figures are getting abused, she is probably a more common target but it is still probably increased proportionally to what her other colleagues have suffered. Some of her abuse is from far right groups, though this is also the case with moderates. The person who got jailed for abusing Luciana Berger for example was UKIP (which isn't far right to clarify)
If we are specifically referring to within Labour then there will probably be more abusive pro Corbyn people out there than anti Corbyn, although the reason for that is somewhat similar to the reason there are more English murderers than Welsh murderers, it isn't because of murderous English rage. If we go outside of Labour though, or just include everyone, then there does more abuse to the Pro Corbyn than the anti Corbyn.
As for the met and worked with over the years it isn't one that I get personally excised about, it depends how you feel about his work with Palestine solidarity and such, if part of the line he was working for endorsed the 'jet fuel steel beam' stuff that would be different. Considering the size of his support base and the yougov polls from the other day, suggesting say, Russia was not a force for good in the world (5% said they were a force for good I think) which doesn't really chime with the idea of conspiracy not when up against the ratings for say Germany and Sweden. Generally Merkel is more likely to be one of the bad guys in conspiracy ideas than Putin, although both are quite possible depending on the conspiracy.
As for the letter as far as the creators and signers were concerned they were talking about the right wing in general, that is how I read it as well. Also it would seem a bit silly for a letter that promotes anti-semitism to then talk about doing the right thing in terms of anti-semitism, racism and any hate mongering unless they actually mean the right thing is supporting all those things?
There are plenty of idiots online, years ago, pre Corbyn I would find it funny hearing the shocked statements that would come out about how much abuse is online. Not because it is a good thing or funny in itself, but I could have told everyone the internet has lots of horrible abuse on it about 21 years ago back when I first started using it. The fact that mass communication tools (in the form of social media like twitter) added to this and the huge increase in internet usage from all walks of life have meant that people, especially famous people get a lot of abuse online has not come as a shock to me. This is why everyone who gets almost any attention/fame gets abuse even those with seemingly no enemies and little or no reason to get abuse other than to be really nasty.
If it could have been turned into an investment opportunity and I had money to invest I would have put it all on that years ago.
Comments
As someone said yesterday, how are these left wing thugs going to react when Jezza is in No. 10 and is criticised every working day?
Oh wait... we know how they will react. Ask Laura K at the BBC.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/stories-43560523
I'm not sure I get where you're coming from with that.
"Oh Phillip, it's just too difficult. I'm going to call it off...."
The problem is that those currently doing that work are Corbyn loyalists rather than PR and marketing professionals. As @SouthamObserver alluded to upthread, a lot of the Corbyn loyalists just don’t understand what antisemitism is and why it’s a problem.
One of the reasons that large companies use external PR agencies, is that in the middle of a crisis they can tell company bosses that they’re being idiots without losing their own jobs over it.
He is a prize pillock (an expression I am sure is not alien to him).
Oh, and a happy body-snatching day to the Christian PBers. A happy gorge on chocolate day to everyone else.
(and Taki - although I found him tedious - was something of a Spectator institution so harsh to blame Johnson for not sacking him)
Then the nice people, who wouldn't dream of engaging in it, excuse it because admitting Corbyn is the problem and enables racism, conspiracist cranks and abuse would mean examining some home truths about what they were prepared to excuse and sweep under the carpet for a few more left wing policies and a leader who fits their false romantic idea about Labour values.
No questioning The Great Leader. Spokesmen explaining why The Great Leader didn't mean what he said. Staff resigning on a weekly basis. Complete silence on important issues and rants about absolute nonsense. And about 350 odd MPs pretending that none of this is happening and The Great Leader is doing a fine job.
I go back to what I said in 2016, Michael Gove performed a great act of sacrifice for the good of the country when he destroyed Johnson's attempts to become PM.
There was a reasonable point to be made. That the United States jealously guarded its sovereignty and should respect Britain for wanting the same. But Boris couldn't leave it there could he. And he knew Cameron would never unleash the forces of hell on him. For all the desire to win on the pitch, it's only a game after all.
....And what's more it is a classic Jewish joke.
It doesn't fit into the good vs evil narrative I realise but reality rarely does....
Edit: my opinion (there you go) is that the press, well the Sunday Times, is not drawing a distinction and should do so.
Likewise:
a vicar is cycling round his parish visiting his flock, and discovers his bike has been stolen. He is halfway through delivering a sermon, going through the Ten Commandments, and just about to reach the commandment about not stealing when he remembers where he left his bike (the Seventh is not to commit adultery.
But they work. As per when my French teacher told me the French only have one egg for breakfast because one egg is un oeuf.
During the last election when Milliband was leader I only read one thing that was unpleasantly anti-semitic (and identified by several people as such) and it was from the pen of Quentin Letts.
PS: he has more faces than the town knock
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2018/03/31/anti-semitic-activist-selected-labour-candidate/
The picanninnies and water melon smiles was grossly crass, however. The problem with Boris is that he is too in love with his own thought process at any time and has an inability to seriously consider other perspectives. He would make a terrible PM as a result.
I think you've got a general coarsening of debate, encouraged by populists of all types - each of which is responsible for their own "pocket" to use a favoured phrase. As for Diane Abbott - I think it's a separate issue - she received crate loads of abuse for years, mainly because she's an outspoken, black, woman MP. She did so when, publicly at least, she supported Tony Blair. I think all very prominent politicians will attract the odd threat from a crank, something that is possibly worse now thanks to social media.
What's different? There are Facebook groups with thousands of members, under the name of the Labour Party, where the vilest abuse, including racism, is chucked at anyone, MP or member who doesn't share their exact political conviction in the leader. It's endemic within a section of Corbyn's support and that is pretty unprecedented in British political life, furthermore, it's actually been politically beneficial in creating a siege mentality where everyone else is a conspirator rather than having moral agency.
So why is Corbyn the problem? Firstly, because of his long associations with the conspiracist hard left, which has a high incidence of thuggery, anti-Semitism and whether he likes it or not (pre-2015 he seemed perfectly happy), is a figurehead for the jet fuel don't melt steel beams brigade. When he's pulled up on associations like Raed Salah or Paul Eisen, he explains them away as momentary 'regrets' and reasserts his moral credentials. The result? Firstly it' provides legitimacy to those who do think like that - by not being explicit in why he was morally wrong in the past, it's seen as not that bad a sin now - or that any denunciation is a PR exercise. Just as white supremacists think Trump is on their side, the anti-Semitic crazies on the left understandably look at Corbyn's past palling around with them and are satisfied that he's really ok by them. Secondly, by continually asserting his own blamelessness rather than admitting profound personal error and treating this as a scourge that's somehow incidental, he fuels the idea that this is all a conspiracy against him. If Jeremy didn't do anything wrong, if it's just a few 'pockets', why do people keep attacking him over it? That in turn further fuels the problem. Thirdly, there's a problem with any movement that believes in its own absolute moral unimpeachability, in that the fanatics have to find a scapegoat when things are imperfect, and it's those whose faces or views don't fit with the narrative they believe about themselves. See Saint-Just in the French Revolution.
Too many in the party and in some of the media continue with the pretence that he himself is innocent and even those who know he isn't put party survival ahead of decency.
https://mobile.twitter.com/PolitiStatsUK/status/980362481360146432
We can either accept, as she asserts herself, that the internet has made it easier to abuse well known people so as a result everyone gets more abuse, or we can start looking for other reasons. Both could be true, but that still wouldn't alone explain the threats towards Corbyn and others supportive of Corbyn if Corbyn is at fault.
There are cases of Corbyn supporters also documenting the abuse they have suffered if you really think that everything has been one way then you have missed a lot. If you read right wing newspapers I can understand you might get that impression but there has been plenty of back and fore, with many giving as good as they got on both sides.
There has been very strong support and opposition for the leader within the party with both sides making their case, I assume this again is the fault of Corbyn, for instance when he plotted the resignation of a minister during his victory speech back in 2015 and other measures he took to pit the factions in the party against each other?
If the Blairites in the party hadn't taken a war footing from the moment Corbyn became leader there would probably be far less stronger feelings on both sides. They decided the members were wrong and Corbyn shouldn't be leader and both sides got very passionate about the subject when they tried to take him out a year later.
As for the siege mentality it exists on all sides, do you really think the 'moderates' have been clear thinking in their actions the last couple of years? They've been acting on pure emotion and desire just as they accuse Corbynites and Brexiteers of doing.
The Tories only need 8 gains from Labour and the SNP too for an overall majority, Labour need 64 gains from the Tories and the SNP and Plaid for an overall majority
If that was easily done no government would ever lose office.
By the bye, on the basis of several thing Roger has mentioned in the past, I'd assumed Roger was Jewish. Since I tend to think of that as mostly a positive, I hadn't really thought much more about it. If it's not the case apologies to him, no one likes an identity thrust upon them.
There is no way he would have let it drag out into a second weekend of stories.
I didn't mean to minimise the abuse Diane Abbott has received. It will obviously have got worse now she's regularly in the public firing line as a frontbencher - but long predates that and the current political issues. My point was, she's always got abuse because she's an outspoken black woman, and that is abhorrent, but has little to do with the current situation within Labour - as far as I'm aware, she's primarily targeted by the far right.
But here you make the mistake I was talking about, and neatly, if unintentionally articulate the problem by assuming Corbyn supporters have moral agency while 'Blairites' have ulterior motives and read 'right-wing papers'. Until Corbyn stood, I thought of myself as on the left of Labour, but unlike many people I knew who he was, who he'd supported and been friends with over the years, that they'd promoted conspiracy theories (anti-Semitic or otherwise) and generally were pretty abhorrent individuals, from the likes of Weyman Bennett, to Galloway and Lindsay German. This isn't, or shouldn't be about 'moderates', etc, but basic common decency. I knew this in 2015, which is why I thought he was, and still is morally unfit to be leader because I feared exactly this would happen. While a student I had met some of these people, and been pretty horrified by some of them. That's why I've long opposed Corbyn. For exactly this reason - there is a conspiracist core to his support that really is toxic, and which he refuses to address because he himself has long been implicated in encouraging and enabling it by those and the views he chooses to endorse.
Of course people have a pop from both sides, but you saying that smacks of exactly the kind of whataboutery that's the problem. There aren't moderate Facebook groups with thousands of members signing letters calling an ethnic group's understandable concerns as 'smears' amd conspiracy. We've reached a stage a significant section of the Labour membership think it's perfectly ok to view their own MPs as traitors deserving of threats and abuse for speaking out on a moral issue - and try and get CLPs to pass motions attacking those who speak out. That's unprecedented and terrifying, and should be a source of shame even to those who broadly support Corbyn's agenda.
If only this were about moderate tactics, and failures, which I'll agree have been utterly flawed from the start. But this is something darker and far worse - and will only deteriorate as people who back Corbyn for what you might call, the right reasons - frustration with the status quo, desire for more radical spending plans, refuse to address it by engaging in whataboutery and blaming others for it.
If we are specifically referring to within Labour then there will probably be more abusive pro Corbyn people out there than anti Corbyn, although the reason for that is somewhat similar to the reason there are more English murderers than Welsh murderers, it isn't because of murderous English rage. If we go outside of Labour though, or just include everyone, then there does more abuse to the Pro Corbyn than the anti Corbyn.
As for the met and worked with over the years it isn't one that I get personally excised about, it depends how you feel about his work with Palestine solidarity and such, if part of the line he was working for endorsed the 'jet fuel steel beam' stuff that would be different. Considering the size of his support base and the yougov polls from the other day, suggesting say, Russia was not a force for good in the world (5% said they were a force for good I think) which doesn't really chime with the idea of conspiracy not when up against the ratings for say Germany and Sweden. Generally Merkel is more likely to be one of the bad guys in conspiracy ideas than Putin, although both are quite possible depending on the conspiracy.
As for the letter as far as the creators and signers were concerned they were talking about the right wing in general, that is how I read it as well. Also it would seem a bit silly for a letter that promotes anti-semitism to then talk about doing the right thing in terms of anti-semitism, racism and any hate mongering unless they actually mean the right thing is supporting all those things?
There are plenty of idiots online, years ago, pre Corbyn I would find it funny hearing the shocked statements that would come out about how much abuse is online. Not because it is a good thing or funny in itself, but I could have told everyone the internet has lots of horrible abuse on it about 21 years ago back when I first started using it. The fact that mass communication tools (in the form of social media like twitter) added to this and the huge increase in internet usage from all walks of life have meant that people, especially famous people get a lot of abuse online has not come as a shock to me. This is why everyone who gets almost any attention/fame gets abuse even those with seemingly no enemies and little or no reason to get abuse other than to be really nasty.
If it could have been turned into an investment opportunity and I had money to invest I would have put it all on that years ago.
big thanksfull for this article.
i like this article for me.
http://www.stations128.com