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  • RecidivistRecidivist Posts: 4,679
    kle4 said:

    Yorkcity said:

    Cyclefree said:

    A few comments on Corbyn:-

    1. When Corbyn first became a candidate for leader, quite a few raised concerns for precisely the reasons which have become evident in recent days - and were roundly poo-poohed. We were told not to be silly and that Corbyn could not be blamed for whom he happened to be standing next to. Well, as we’ve seen (and as some of us said at the time) he did not “happen” to stand by these people. He chose to do so.

    2. The risks for Labour now are two-fold:-

    - that more is uncovered which relates to Corbyn directly: what he may have said or done in the past.
    - that there is some violence or atrocity and that there are not many degrees of separation between the perpetrators and the Labour leadership. I fervently hope this does not happen.

    It is sad, very sad, that Labour should have come to this.

    What is also very worrying that some should be sanguine at the prospect of Holocaust deniers being given a free pass. Quite apart from questions of moral decency, these are people who deny facts - provable facts - and to have such people anywhere near public policy is very worrying.

    Who is denying the Holocaust ? I wish someone would name them, their position , then surely it could be dealt with with If they are members of the party , they should be thrown out.
    The near total absence of evidence for this story is its most remarkable feature.
    The whole story or just parts of it? There must be evidence of parts of it, because no way the leader of a party says there is a problem with anti-semitism in their party unless they are certain it exists.
    Well if there is a local council candidate who is a Holocaust denier, then that is a problem. But it is a fairly minor problem that can be solved by removing him or her. All parties attract oddballs and managing them is one of the costs of doing business as a mass membership party. An hysterical reaction to this kind of story by that party's enemies is most likely partisan posing for advantage, though in some cases might be the result of being in the same tin hat category as the Holocaust denier.

    I remember there were lots of attempts to discredit UKIP by dragging up some of the more exotic fruits from their basket. It didn't do them any harm. This so-called anti-Semitism issue won't hurt either Labour or Corbyn.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 91,392
    RobD said:

    Floater said:

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-5566951/Headache-Corbyn-Labour-picks-candidate-edited-paper-ran-anti-Semitic-stories.html

    He added: 'I have never been anti-Semitic. I was expecting this - it's normal that any pro-Israelis wouldn't want any pro-Palestinians to run in the May election.

    Those pesky zionists

    Why are pro-Israelis interested in local elections in England?
    They are very dedicated. If they let a pro-palestinian gain a foothold in, say, Rutland, who knows where it could lead to?

    Christ, I criticised Israel just the other day re settlements, I had better watch out.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 49,952
    edited April 2018
    Roger said:

    Roger said:

    OT Talking of religion .....though I'm with tyson on this having just been to Mantova and seeing a spectacular display of synchronised walking by huge numbers of nuns looking like a harmless version of Ku Klux Klan I think I'd miss the paraphernalia if it wasn't there.

    "seeing a spectacular display of synchronised walking by huge numbers of nuns" is possibly the most intriguing dozen consecutive words ever written on pb.com!!
    I think I'll take that as a compliment and even if it wasn't intended it's at least a gasp of fresh air from the anti semite obsessives on here.

    (OT. What did you make of 'You Were Never really Here'? I couldn't make head nor tail of it)

    It's a compliment.

    And haven't yet seen YWNRH. But I generally enjoy films I can't make head nor tail of! I still fondly remember seeing Herzog's "Even Dwarfs Started Small" at Uni - and not having a clue what I was watching.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 91,392
    edited April 2018

    kle4 said:

    Yorkcity said:

    Cyclefree said:

    A few comments on Corbyn:-

    1. When Corbyn first became a candidate for leader, quite a few raised concerns for precisely the reasons which have become evident in recent days - and were roundly poo-poohed. We were told not to be silly and that Corbyn could not be blamed for whom he happened to be standing next to. Well, as we’ve seen (and as some of us said at the time) he did not “happen” to stand by these people. He chose to do so.

    2. The risks for Labour now are two-fold:-

    - that more is uncovered which relates to Corbyn directly: what he may have said or done in the past.
    - that there is some violence or atrocity and that there are not many degrees of separation between the perpetrators and the Labour leadership. I fervently hope this does not happen.

    It is sad, very sad, that Labour should have come to this.

    What is also very worrying that some should be sanguine at the prospect of Holocaust deniers being given a free pass. Quite apart from questions of moral decency, these are people who deny facts - provable facts - and to have such people anywhere near public policy is very worrying.

    Who is denying the Holocaust ? I wish someone would name them, their position , then surely it could be dealt with with If they are members of the party , they should be thrown out.
    The near total absence of evidence for this story is its most remarkable feature.
    The whole story or just parts of it? There must be evidence of parts of it, because no way the leader of a party says there is a problem with anti-semitism in their party unless they are certain it exists.
    This so-called anti-Semitism issue won't hurt either Labour or Corbyn.
    I don't think it will either, not appreciably, but when the leader himself says it is a problem, it is not a 'so-called' anti-semitism issue, it is an anti-semitism issue.

    Or are you seriously suggesting a national party leader decided it would be a good idea to admit, falsely, to having a problem with anti-semitism in his party?

    That is simply not credible. Why would he say there was an issue when it was not there?

    Is it as bad as some say, is Corbyn himself the problem, will it affect them long term and other questions, those might have different answers, but one question that has been answered, by Corbyn himself, is that there is a problem, so it is not 'so-called'.
  • YorkcityYorkcity Posts: 4,382
    kle4 said:

    Yorkcity said:

    Yorkcity said:

    Cyclefree said:

    A few comments on Corbyn:-

    1. When Corbyn first became a candidate for leader, quite a few raised concerns for precisely the reasons which have become evident in recent days - and were roundly poo-poohed. We were told not to be silly and that Corbyn could not be blamed for whom he happened to be standing next to. Well, as we’ve seen (and as some of us said at the time) he did not “happen” to stand by these people. He chose to do so.

    2. The risks for Labour now are two-fold:-

    - that more is uncovered which relates to Corbyn directly: what he may have said or done in the past.
    - that there is some violence or atrocity and that there are not many degrees of separation between the perpetrators and the Labour leadership. I fervently hope this does not happen.

    It is sad, very sad, that Labour should have come to this.

    What is also very worrying that some should be sanguine at the prospect of Holocaust deniers being given a free pass. Quite apart from questions of moral decency, these are people who deny facts - provable facts - and to have such people anywhere near public policy is very worrying.

    Who is denying the Holocaust ? I wish someone would name them, their position , then surely it could be dealt with with If they are members of the party , they should be thrown out.
    The near total absence of evidence for this story is its most remarkable feature.
    I find it hard to fathom .Never met anyone ever denying the Holocaust.The only mention I remember was years ago , when a poster on here ,was said to be one.However never read his posts on the subject.So maybe they were deleted by the moderators on this site.
    Not everyone who is anti-semitic is going to go so far as to be a holocaust denier. At least 1 such person has been found. But there is a self admitted problem with anti-semitism generally, whether or not all those anti-semites go so far as to be holocaust deniers.

    So I don't really know what you are finding so hard to fathom - is it better that the self admitted problem of anti-semitism is not going to take the form of all those found being holocaust deniers? I guess, but that's still not great. I wish the party well in tossing out all its anti-semites, and hope other parties are performing their own checks right now too.
    Yes I agree.Hard to fathom in that never come across such people.My apologies.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 91,392
    Yorkcity said:

    kle4 said:

    Yorkcity said:

    Yorkcity said:

    Cyclefree said:

    A few comments on Corbyn:-

    1. When Corbyn first became a candidate for leader, quite a few raised concerns for precisely the reasons which have become evident in recent days - and were roundly poo-poohed. We were told not to be silly and that Corbyn could not be blamed for whom he happened to be standing next to. Well, as we’ve seen (and as some of us said at the time) he did not “happen” to stand by these people. He chose to do so.

    2. The risks for Labour now are two-fold:-

    - that more is uncovered which relates to Corbyn directly: what he may have said or done in the past.
    - that there is some violence or atrocity and that there are not many degrees of separation between the perpetrators and the Labour leadership. I fervently hope this does not happen.

    It is sad, very sad, that Labour should have come to this.

    What is also very worrying that some should be sanguine at the prospect of Holocaust deniers being given a free pass. Quite apart from questions of moral decency, these are people who deny facts - provable facts - and to have such people anywhere near public policy is very worrying.

    Who is denying the Holocaust ? I wish someone would name them, their position , then surely it could be dealt with with If they are members of the party , they should be thrown out.
    The near total absence of evidence for this story is its most remarkable feature.
    I find it hard to fathom .Never met anyone ever denying the Holocaust.The only mention I remember was years ago , when a poster on here ,was said to be one.However never read his posts on the subject.So maybe they were deleted by the moderators on this site.
    Not everyone who is anti-semitic is going to go so far as to be a holocaust denier. At least 1 such person has been found. But there is a self admitted problem with anti-semitism generally, whether or not all those anti-semites go so far as to be holocaust deniers.

    So I don't really know what you are finding so hard to fathom - is it better that the self admitted problem of anti-semitism is not going to take the form of all those found being holocaust deniers? I guess, but that's still not great. I wish the party well in tossing out all its anti-semites, and hope other parties are performing their own checks right now too.
    Yes I agree.Hard to fathom in that never come across such people.My apologies.
    Inelegance of language issue, I am sure, no biggie.

    Pleasant evening all.
  • oxfordsimonoxfordsimon Posts: 5,831
    Mike Sivier certainly looks like someone to whom the term Holocaust denier can be applied.

    There is some dispute over whether he has had his suspension from Labour lifted. The Sunday Times believes he has, Metro begs to differ.

    His case was heard by none other than Christine Shawcroft...
  • FloaterFloater Posts: 14,195

    Yorkcity said:

    Cyclefree said:

    A few comments on Corbyn:-

    1. When Corbyn first became a candidate for leader, quite a few raised concerns for precisely the reasons which have become evident in recent days - and were roundly poo-poohed. We were told not to be silly and that Corbyn could not be blamed for whom he happened to be standing next to. Well, as we’ve seen (and as some of us said at the time) he did not “happen” to stand by these people. He chose to do so.

    2. The risks for Labour now are two-fold:-

    - that more is uncovered which relates to Corbyn directly: what he may have said or done in the past.
    - that there is some violence or atrocity and that there are not many degrees of separation between the perpetrators and the Labour leadership. I fervently hope this does not happen.

    It is sad, very sad, that Labour should have come to this.

    What is also very worrying that some should be sanguine at the prospect of Holocaust deniers being given a free pass. Quite apart from questions of moral decency, these are people who deny facts - provable facts - and to have such people anywhere near public policy is very worrying.

    Who is denying the Holocaust ? I wish someone would name them, their position , then surely it could be dealt with with If they are members of the party , they should be thrown out.
    Alan Bull for starters, prospective Labour councillor.

    http://jewishnews.timesofisrael.com/labour-alan-bull-council-holocaust-hoax/

    It is because of this Christine Shawcroft had to resign.
    Roy Smart, for two. Hasn't quite made the headlines yet, newspapers probably waiting until the blood libeller from Hillingdon has had a full news cycle.

    https://www.reddit.com/r/LabourUK/comments/88rmso/some_facebook_posts_of_roy_smart_labour_council/

    No evidence though, no sireee
  • TheJezziahTheJezziah Posts: 3,840
    kle4 said:

    kle4 said:

    Yorkcity said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Who is denying the Holocaust ? I wish someone would name them, their position , then surely it could be dealt with with If they are members of the party , they should be thrown out.
    The near total absence of evidence for this story is its most remarkable feature.
    The whole story or just parts of it? There must be evidence of parts of it, because no way the leader of a party says there is a problem with anti-semitism in their party unless they are certain it exists.
    This so-called anti-Semitism issue won't hurt either Labour or Corbyn.
    I don't think it will either, not appreciably, but when the leader himself says it is a problem, it is not a 'so-called' anti-semitism issue, it is an anti-semitism issue.

    Or are you seriously suggesting a national party leader decided it would be a good idea to admit, falsely, to having a problem with anti-semitism in his party?

    That is simply not credible. Why would he say there was an issue when it was not there?

    Is it as bad as some say, is Corbyn himself the problem, will it affect them long term and other questions, those might have different answers, but one question that has been answered, by Corbyn himself, is that there is a problem, so it is not 'so-called'.
    I did try to go through this before, it depends on what you call a problem really, as a ratio it would be pretty small... but I would happily take the view that any racism is a problem. Though in that case Labour has always had and probably will always have a problem,

    There were lots of cases of anti-semitism within Labour still going through when Corbyn took over as leader. On most measures the problem as it is now isn't far off what the problem was before, although you wouldn't see many talking about how it was a problem before...

    So maybe the confusion is people sticking to the previous definition of a problem?
  • Ishmael_ZIshmael_Z Posts: 8,981
    new thread
  • NEW THREAD

  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758

    Not sure I could be happier right now.

    ‪Fun fact: the day after Spurs last beat Chelsea at Stamford Bridge Nelson Mandela was released from prison.‬

    Harold won at Stamford too...
  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,074
    Yorkcity said:

    kle4 said:

    Yorkcity said:

    Cyclefree said:

    A few comments on Corbyn:-

    1. When Corbyn first became a candidate for leader, quite a few raised concerns for precisely the reasons which have become evident in recent days - and were roundly poo-poohed. We were told not to be silly and that Corbyn could not be blamed for whom he happened to be standing next to. Well, as we’ve seen (and as some of us said at the time) he did not “happen” to stand by these people. He chose to do so.

    2. The risks for Labour now are two-fold:-

    - that more is uncovered which relates to Corbyn directly: what he may have said or done in the past.
    - that there is some violence or atrocity and that there are not many degrees of separation between the perpetrators and the Labour leadership. I fervently hope this does not happen.

    It is sad, very sad, that Labour should have come to this.

    What is also very worrying that some should be sanguine at the prospect of Holocaust deniers being given a free pass. Quite apart from questions of moral decency, these are people who deny facts - provable facts - and to have such people anywhere near public policy is very worrying.

    Who is denying the Holocaust ? I wish someone would name them, their position , then surely it could be dealt with with If they are members of the party , they should be thrown out.
    The near total absence of evidence for this story is its most remarkable feature.
    The whole story or just parts of it? There must be evidence of parts of it, because no way the leader of a party says there is a problem with anti-semitism in their party unless they are certain it exists.
    I appreciate that , but Holocaust deniers , I asked Cyclefree to name them.As I was not aware that was a major problem anywhere to be honest , just a few cranks and an historian , I ever remember.
    This was answered below by me and a number of other posters. Google Christine Shawcroft, Alan Bull and the Peterborough Labour party, for instance.
  • TheJezziahTheJezziah Posts: 3,840
    Cyclefree said:

    Yorkcity said:

    kle4 said:

    Yorkcity said:

    Cyclefree said:

    A few comments on Corbyn:-

    1. When Corbyn first became a candidate for leader, quite a few raised concerns for precisely the reasons which have become evident in recent days - and were roundly poo-poohed. We were told not to be silly and that Corbyn could not be blamed for whom he happened to be standing next to. Well, as we’ve seen (and as some of us said at the time) he did not “happen” to stand by these people. He chose to do so.

    2. The risks for Labour now are two-fold:-

    - that more is uncovered which relates to Corbyn directly: what he may have said or done in the past.
    - that there is some violence or atrocity and that there are not many degrees of separation between the perpetrators and the Labour leadership. I fervently hope this does not happen.

    It is sad, very sad, that Labour should have come to this.

    What is also very worrying that some should be sanguine at the prospect of Holocaust deniers being given a free pass. Quite apart from questions of moral decency, these are people who deny facts - provable facts - and to have such people anywhere near public policy is very worrying.

    Who is denying the Holocaust ? I wish someone would name them, their position , then surely it could be dealt with with If they are members of the party , they should be thrown out.
    The near total absence of evidence for this story is its most remarkable feature.
    The whole story or just parts of it? There must be evidence of parts of it, because no way the leader of a party says there is a problem with anti-semitism in their party unless they are certain it exists.
    I appreciate that , but Holocaust deniers , I asked Cyclefree to name them.As I was not aware that was a major problem anywhere to be honest , just a few cranks and an historian , I ever remember.
    This was answered below by me and a number of other posters. Google Christine Shawcroft, Alan Bull and the Peterborough Labour party, for instance.
    Not sure why Guido aren't making more of Christine's holocaust denial or the Peterborough Labour party... not that you can't make an argument about defending Bull but it seems a bit weak if they are actually guilty of the crime themselves!
This discussion has been closed.