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  • Options
    Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826
    FF43 said:

    Sandpit said:

    RobD said:

    Off-topic:

    The NTSB are unhappy with Tesla:
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-43617752

    They shouldn't have called it autopilot....
    The current level 3 autonomous systems are downright dangerous, in that they require the human driver to do nothing for long periods of time yet remain alert enough to take over in a fraction of a second if required. Humans just aren’t wired to work like that.

    The testing needs to be much more strictly controlled, for example having multiple professional people in the car and limiting the driver to something like 30 minutes continuous observation, strict rest periods etc. The ‘safety driver’ in the Uber car that crashed the other week was on $9 an hour and had a string of driving convictions, I suspect the NTSB are going to throw the book at that company.
    Tesla's testing regime is completely misconceived. You don't do live testing on safety critical systems. Ever. The purpose of live testing is to validate your models. Your system is the model. If a necessary condition is not in the model, the model is at fault.

    I suspect automated control is not doing Tesla any good. It is far too expensive for them to do properly and distracts from delivering cool and practical electric vehicles.
    Humans have done "live testing" on the road since vehicles began. That's how humans learn. Why should machines be different?
  • Options
    FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 76,274

    We can all rejoice that the Arab Spring brought democracy to Egypt:

    "Egyptian President Abdul Fattah al-Sisi has been re-elected for a second four-year term, after winning 97% of the vote last week, official results show."

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-43616270

    He is obviously very popular...
  • Options
    NigelbNigelb Posts: 62,378

    I should have added, I don't necessary think Google need to run the Netflix car service themselves, think more Amazon and how AWS makes them just boats loads of money because so much of the internet runs on it.

    Well Amazon are already into transportation logistics in a very big way indeed...
  • Options
    Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826

    Nigelb said:

    Off-topic:

    The NTSB are unhappy with Tesla:
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-43617752

    It's not beyond the bounds of possibility that Tesla will go bust (they are currently borrowing at junk bond rates).
    I wonder who would snap up their assets ?
    Would make sense for one of the deep pocketed tech companies with an interest in getting into transportation, perhaps even more than for one of the big carmakers...
    That's an interesting one (although I hope they don't go bust).

    The question that needs asking is *why* a tech company would want to go into the car business. Google / Alphabet are getting into autonomous car tech via Waymo, and Apple were apparently looking into building cars. I think the answer is not in liking manufacturing, but in gaining, selling and using data (something Waymo have just been forced to deny). As I've said passim, the money in autonomous cars will not be in manufacturing, but data.

    It'd be interesting to see if and how recent events change things.
    I believe there is another thing on top of the data. I can foresee a Netflix style service for self-driving cars, rather than people buying them you pay a monthly fee for the ability to do what Uber does at the moment, but the car drives itself.

    Controlling this space would be incredibly powerful and lucrative.
    Indeed - so much so, that the anger at Elon Musk at drinks thing I attended for lawyers in the "environmental space" was palpable. His cars are too nice to drive and they give people the idea that driving isn't evil, apparently. One person actually said to me "and how do we stop people driving, if we can't tax the fuel and make them feel bad?"
    Why would we want to?
  • Options
    NigelbNigelb Posts: 62,378
    FF43 said:

    Sandpit said:

    RobD said:

    Off-topic:

    The NTSB are unhappy with Tesla:
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-43617752

    They shouldn't have called it autopilot....
    The current level 3 autonomous systems are downright dangerous, in that they require the human driver to do nothing for long periods of time yet remain alert enough to take over in a fraction of a second if required. Humans just aren’t wired to work like that.

    The testing needs to be much more strictly controlled, for example having multiple professional people in the car and limiting the driver to something like 30 minutes continuous observation, strict rest periods etc. The ‘safety driver’ in the Uber car that crashed the other week was on $9 an hour and had a string of driving convictions, I suspect the NTSB are going to throw the book at that company.
    Tesla's testing regime is completely misconceived. You don't do live testing on safety critical systems. Ever. The purpose of live testing is to validate your models. Your system is the model. If a necessary condition is not in the model, the model is at fault.

    I suspect automated control is not doing Tesla any good. It is far too expensive for them to do properly and distracts from delivering cool and practical electric vehicles.
    Musk is a massive risk taker. It worked in rocketry, but the same approach is unlikely to work in automobile manufacturing...
    http://business.financialpost.com/entrepreneur/fp-innovators/elon-musk-is-todays-henry-ford-thats-bad-edward-niedermeyer

    (Though that doesn't really apply to his battery gigafactory joint venture.)

    Waymo's approach to the autonomous vehicle problem seems much more sensibly structured than that of its competitors - and it will be very interesting to watch the launch of their real world service.
  • Options
    SandpitSandpit Posts: 49,847

    Sandpit said:

    Nigelb said:

    /

    .
    I believe there is another thing on top of the data. I can foresee a Netflix style service for self-driving cars, rather than people buying them you pay a monthly fee for the ability to do what Uber does at the moment, but the car drives itself.

    Controlling this space would be incredibly powerful and lucrative.
    Indeed - so much so, that the anger at Elon Musk at drinks thing I attended for lawyers in the "environmental space" was palpable. His cars are too nice to drive and they give people the idea that driving isn't evil, apparently. One person actually said to me "and how do we stop people driving, if we can't tax the fuel and make them feel bad?"
    If we all switched to electric cars and trucks tomorrow, the UK government, while getting the VAT on the sale, would be something like £150bn a year down in VED and fuel taxes. That’s the entire NHS budget and then some.
    True. The fault is with the government - they have lied so many times over the years, with everything relating to petrol and car taxation, that they have no credit.

    Road usage tax is a third rail in politics - a complete killer. Everyone believes that it would become Road tax + fuel tax + car tax, not replace one. Even if the proposal was for abolition of fuel duty in the same law. Hell, even if the law made proposing re-introduction of fuel tax High Treason with instant execution - still no-one will go for it.

    The mass use electric car is now inevitable - Tesla is just one vendor. The attempts to push Hydrogen fuel cells are running out of time.

    Trying to invent a reason to block the electric car will be a challenge, to say the least.
    VED and fuel duty are nothggn like £150bn per year
    I got home and looked up,the right numbers.
    Fuel Duty 2017 £28bn https://www.statista.com/statistics/284323/united-kingdom-hmrc-tax-receipts-fuel-duty/
    VED 2016-17 only £6bn (I thought it was 10x that, sorry), but from 2017 they changed the system which massively increases revenues, should get those figures soon.
    https://www.economicshelp.org/blog/4001/economics/tax-revenue-sources-in-uk/
    Also need to add VAT on fuel (inc on the Fuel Duty, tax on tax) and car purchases and servicing (electric cars are a lot cheaper to service).
  • Options
    Yorkcity said:
    Only one of those academics works at a top university, the rest work at dumps, thus we can ignore that letter.
  • Options
    YorkcityYorkcity Posts: 4,382

    Yorkcity said:
    Only one of those academics works at a top university, the rest work at dumps, thus we can ignore that letter.
    Over forty senior acedemics , which one do you approve York ?
  • Options
    FoxyFoxy Posts: 44,531
    edited April 2018

    Momentum has warned its supporters that accusations of antisemitism in Labour are not rightwing smears or conspiracy, saying unconscious anti-Jewish bias is “more widespread in the Labour party than many of us had understood even a few months ago”.

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2018/apr/02/labour-antisemitism-more-widespread-than-thought-momentum-says

    I am not sure tweeting pictures of things like signs saying "Arbeit macht frei" is unconscious...

    Traditionally "arbeit macht frei" meant management were Nazis rather than being anti-semitic (unless it was a Jewish firm, of course) though perhaps the zeitgeist has changed.
    Also if he is giving an Easter message to the Jewish community why does he not address UK christians at this most important weekend in their faith.
    https://twitter.com/jeremycorbyn/status/980331426749980672?s=19
  • Options
    JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 38,916

    FF43 said:

    Sandpit said:

    RobD said:

    Off-topic:

    The NTSB are unhappy with Tesla:
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-43617752

    They shouldn't have called it autopilot....
    The current level 3 autonomous systems are downright dangerous, in that they require the human driver to do nothing for long periods of time yet remain alert enough to take over in a fraction of a second if required. Humans just aren’t wired to work like that.

    The testing needs to be much more strictly controlled, for example having multiple professional people in the car and limiting the driver to something like 30 minutes continuous observation, strict rest periods etc. The ‘safety driver’ in the Uber car that crashed the other week was on $9 an hour and had a string of driving convictions, I suspect the NTSB are going to throw the book at that company.
    Tesla's testing regime is completely misconceived. You don't do live testing on safety critical systems. Ever. The purpose of live testing is to validate your models. Your system is the model. If a necessary condition is not in the model, the model is at fault.

    I suspect automated control is not doing Tesla any good. It is far too expensive for them to do properly and distracts from delivering cool and practical electric vehicles.
    Humans have done "live testing" on the road since vehicles began. That's how humans learn. Why should machines be different?
    An alleged quote from Sikorsky:

    "At that time [1909] the chief engineer was almost always the chief test pilot as well. That had the fortunate result of eliminating poor engineering early in aviation."
  • Options
    SandpitSandpit Posts: 49,847
    Yorkcity said:
    Who was it that said that it’s better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to open your mouth and remove all doubt?
  • Options
    FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 76,274
    edited April 2018

    Yorkcity said:
    Only one of those academics works at a top university, the rest work at dumps, thus we can ignore that letter.
    They are dead impartial that lot. The first one I google in his bio on his personal website states,

    "appeared on national television as a spokesperson for Jeremy Corbyn's leadership of the Labour Party."

    "a member of the founding national committee of Momentum (the controversial organisation established to support Corbyn's leadership of Labour)"
  • Options
    Yorkcity said:

    Yorkcity said:
    Only one of those academics works at a top university, the rest work at dumps, thus we can ignore that letter.
    Over forty senior acedemics , which one do you approve York ?
    The LSE.
  • Options
    YorkcityYorkcity Posts: 4,382
    Sandpit said:

    Yorkcity said:
    Who was it that said that it’s better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to open your mouth and remove all doubt?
    No idea Sandpit direct your response in a reply to the acedemics , if it makes you feel better.
  • Options
    FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 76,274

    Yorkcity said:

    Yorkcity said:
    Only one of those academics works at a top university, the rest work at dumps, thus we can ignore that letter.
    Over forty senior acedemics , which one do you approve York ?
    The LSE.
    What the institution that gave Gaddafi's son a dodgy PhD...
  • Options
    Foxy said:

    Momentum has warned its supporters that accusations of antisemitism in Labour are not rightwing smears or conspiracy, saying unconscious anti-Jewish bias is “more widespread in the Labour party than many of us had understood even a few months ago”.

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2018/apr/02/labour-antisemitism-more-widespread-than-thought-momentum-says

    I am not sure tweeting pictures of things like signs saying "Arbeit macht frei" is unconscious...

    Traditionally "arbeit macht frei" meant management were Nazis rather than being anti-semitic (unless it was a Jewish firm, of course) though perhaps the zeitgeist has changed.
    Also if he is giving an Easter message to the Jewish community why does he not address UK christians at this most important weekend in their faith.
    https://twitter.com/jeremycorbyn/status/980331426749980672?s=19
    So when was that seen on main stream media - if I so I apologies
  • Options
    williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 48,027
    No doubt all the people who attacked Juncker for congratulating Putin will be quick to condemn this tweet.
    https://twitter.com/BorisJohnson/status/980838883150704645
  • Options

    Yorkcity said:
    Only one of those academics works at a top university, the rest work at dumps, thus we can ignore that letter.
    They are dead impartial that lot. The first one I google in his bio on his personal website states,

    "appeared on national television as a spokesperson for Jeremy Corbyn's leadership of the Labour Party."

    "a member of the founding national committee of Momentum (the controversial organisation established to support Corbyn's leadership of Labour)"
    Talking of Momentum.

    Momentum has warned its supporters that accusations of antisemitism in Labour are not rightwing smears or conspiracy, saying unconscious anti-Jewish bias is “more widespread in the Labour party than many of us had understood even a few months ago”.

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2018/apr/02/labour-antisemitism-more-widespread-than-thought-momentum-says
  • Options
    Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826

    No doubt all the people who attacked Juncker for congratulating Putin will be quick to condemn this tweet.
    https://twitter.com/BorisJohnson/status/980838883150704645

    Did Sisi just order the murder of someone on our soil using a prohibited chemical weapon?
  • Options
    SandpitSandpit Posts: 49,847
    Yorkcity said:

    Sandpit said:

    Yorkcity said:
    Who was it that said that it’s better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to open your mouth and remove all doubt?
    No idea Sandpit direct your response in a reply to the acedemics , if it makes you feel better.
    The quote actually goes back to the Bible (Proverbs 17:28) and yes, aimed at the academics rather than your good self.
  • Options

    Yorkcity said:

    Yorkcity said:
    Only one of those academics works at a top university, the rest work at dumps, thus we can ignore that letter.
    Over forty senior acedemics , which one do you approve York ?
    The LSE.
    What the institution that gave Gaddafi's son a dodgy PhD...
    No, the LSE is a very fine institution.

    On a totally unrelated note OGH attended the LSE.
  • Options
    CookieCookie Posts: 11,364

    Nigelb said:

    Off-topic:

    The NTSB are unhappy with Tesla:
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-43617752

    It's not beyond the bounds of possibility that Tesla will go bust (they are currently borrowing at junk bond rates).
    I wonder who would snap up their assets ?
    Would make sense for one of the deep pocketed tech companies with an interest in getting into transportation, perhaps even more than for one of the big carmakers...


    It'd be interesting to see if and how recent events change things.
    I believe there is another thing on top of the data. I can foresee a Netflix style service for self-driving cars, rather than people buying them you pay a monthly fee for the ability to do what Uber does at the moment, but the car drives itself.

    Controlling this space would be incredibly powerful and lucrative.
    Indeed - so much so, that the anger at Elon Musk at drinks thing I attended for lawyers in the "environmental space" was palpable. His cars are too nice to drive and they give people the idea that driving isn't evil, apparently. One person actually said to me "and how do we stop people driving, if we can't tax the fuel and make them feel bad?"
    Why would we want to?
    Because 1) even an electric car still has a much bigger environmental impact than public transport, walking or cycling, and 2) because even if it didn't cars are a hugely space-inefficient- and therefore, due to congestion, time-inefficient - way of getting people around denseley packed urban areas.

    I'm not an eco-nut. I acknowledge that outside the big cities, argument 1 fails the but-I-can't-make-the-journeys-I-want test, and argument 2 is much less of a problem. I'm just answering the question.

    Mobility as a service is a very interesting area of study, and I'm confident that in cities at least it will take off in ten years. I'm also pretty confident car ownership will continue to decline. Having two cars on my drive - one of them massive - because once a week my wife and I both need to drive somewhere at the same time, and once a year we need to drive a whole family and a lot of stuff to Cornwall, is a very inefficient use of assets. Car clubs are growing, and aremuch more cost effective if you drive less frequently, or if you drive a second car only infrequently. As yet, you only get them in the most urban areas. But they are growing.

  • Options
    NigelbNigelb Posts: 62,378
    Sandpit said:

    Sandpit said:

    Nigelb said:

    /

    .
    I believe there is another thing on top of the data. I can foresee a Netflix style service for self-driving cars, rather than people buying them you pay a monthly fee for the ability to do what Uber does at the moment, but the car drives itself.

    Controlling this space would be incredibly powerful and lucrative.
    Indeed - so much so, that the anger at Elon Musk at drinks thing I attended for lawyers in the "environmental space" was palpable. His cars are too nice to drive and they give people the idea that driving isn't evil, apparently. One person actually said to me "and how do we stop people driving, if we can't tax the fuel and make them feel bad?"
    If we all switched to electric cars and trucks tomorrow, the UK government, while getting the VAT on the sale, would be something like £150bn a year down in VED and fuel taxes. That’s the entire NHS budget and then some.
    True. The fault is with the government - they have lied so many times over the years, with everything relating to petrol and car taxation, that they have no credit.

    Road usage tax is a third rail in politics - a complete killer. Everyone believes that it would become Road tax + fuel tax + car tax, not replace one. Even if the proposal was for abolition of fuel duty in the same law. Hell, even if the law made proposing re-introduction of fuel tax High Treason with instant execution - still no-one will go for it.

    The mass use electric car is now inevitable - Tesla is just one vendor. The attempts to push Hydrogen fuel cells are running out of time.

    Trying to invent a reason to block the electric car will be a challenge, to say the least.
    VED and fuel duty are nothggn like £150bn per year
    I got home and looked up,the right numbers.
    Fuel Duty 2017 £28bn https://www.statista.com/statistics/284323/united-kingdom-hmrc-tax-receipts-fuel-duty/
    VED 2016-17 only £6bn (I thought it was 10x that, sorry), but from 2017 they changed the system which massively increases revenues, should get those figures soon.
    https://www.economicshelp.org/blog/4001/economics/tax-revenue-sources-in-uk/
    Also need to add VAT on fuel (inc on the Fuel Duty, tax on tax) and car purchases and servicing (electric cars are a lot cheaper to service).
    Electric vehicles ought also to last considerably longer.
  • Options
    rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 53,924

    Yorkcity said:

    Yorkcity said:
    Only one of those academics works at a top university, the rest work at dumps, thus we can ignore that letter.
    Over forty senior acedemics , which one do you approve York ?
    The LSE.
    What the institution that gave Gaddafi's son a dodgy PhD...
    Implausible as this sounds, apparently his thesis was pretty good. Of course, it's entirely possible that it was not entirely his own work.
  • Options
    FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 76,274
    rcs1000 said:

    Yorkcity said:

    Yorkcity said:
    Only one of those academics works at a top university, the rest work at dumps, thus we can ignore that letter.
    Over forty senior acedemics , which one do you approve York ?
    The LSE.
    What the institution that gave Gaddafi's son a dodgy PhD...
    Implausible as this sounds, apparently his thesis was pretty good. Of course, it's entirely possible that it was not entirely his own work.
    Bit like Prince Harry's A-Level artwork....
  • Options
    NigelbNigelb Posts: 62,378

    No doubt all the people who attacked Juncker for congratulating Putin will be quick to condemn this tweet.
    https://twitter.com/BorisJohnson/status/980838883150704645

    Did Sisi just order the murder of someone on our soil using a prohibited chemical weapon?
    No, he tends to confine mass killings to those on his own soil who protest against his sham democracy / dictatorship.
  • Options
    YorkcityYorkcity Posts: 4,382
    Sandpit said:

    Yorkcity said:

    Sandpit said:

    Yorkcity said:
    Who was it that said that it’s better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to open your mouth and remove all doubt?
    No idea Sandpit direct your response in a reply to the acedemics , if it makes you feel better.
    The quote actually goes back to the Bible (Proverbs 17:28) and yes, aimed at the academics rather than your good self.
    My apologies .
  • Options
    SandpitSandpit Posts: 49,847
    edited April 2018
    Nigelb said:

    Sandpit said:

    Sandpit said:

    Nigelb said:

    /

    .
    .
    .
    True. The fault is with the government - they have lied so many times over the years, with everything relating to petrol and car taxation, that they have no credit.

    Road usage tax is a third rail in politics - a complete killer. Everyone believes that it would become Road tax + fuel tax + car tax, not replace one. Even if the proposal was for abolition of fuel duty in the same law. Hell, even if the law made proposing re-introduction of fuel tax High Treason with instant execution - still no-one will go for it.

    The mass use electric car is now inevitable - Tesla is just one vendor. The attempts to push Hydrogen fuel cells are running out of time.

    Trying to invent a reason to block the electric car will be a challenge, to say the least.
    VED and fuel duty are nothggn like £150bn per year
    I got home and looked up,the right numbers.
    Fuel Duty 2017 £28bn https://www.statista.com/statistics/284323/united-kingdom-hmrc-tax-receipts-fuel-duty/
    VED 2016-17 only £6bn (I thought it was 10x that, sorry), but from 2017 they changed the system which massively increases revenues, should get those figures soon.
    https://www.economicshelp.org/blog/4001/economics/tax-revenue-sources-in-uk/
    Also need to add VAT on fuel (inc on the Fuel Duty, tax on tax) and car purchases and servicing (electric cars are a lot cheaper to service).
    Electric vehicles ought also to last considerably longer.
    Another revenue issue when we are all going around in what are effectively taxis, is that there will be considerably reduced demand for parking in city centres - which is a major income source for many urban local authorities.
  • Options
    stodgestodge Posts: 12,828
    Nigelb said:

    No doubt all the people who attacked Juncker for congratulating Putin will be quick to condemn this tweet.
    https://twitter.com/BorisJohnson/status/980838883150704645

    Did Sisi just order the murder of someone on our soil using a prohibited chemical weapon?
    No, he tends to confine mass killings to those on his own soil who protest against his sham democracy / dictatorship.
    Actually the only thing that matters that while Sisi is a b*stard, he's OUR b*stard.
  • Options
    viewcodeviewcode Posts: 18,631
    edited April 2018

    No doubt all the people who attacked Juncker for congratulating Putin will be quick to condemn this tweet.
    https://twitter.com/BorisJohnson/status/980838883150704645

    Did Sisi just order the murder of someone on our soil using a prohibited chemical weapon?
    That's a very good point.

    Pause.

    I'll just leave this here, shall I? (innocent face)

    https://twitter.com/realdonaldtrump/status/976532956557737984?lang=en
  • Options
    FF43FF43 Posts: 15,692
    edited April 2018

    FF43 said:



    Tesla's testing regime is completely misconceived. You don't do live testing on safety critical systems. Ever. The purpose of live testing is to validate your models. Your system is the model. If a necessary condition is not in the model, the model is at fault.

    I suspect automated control is not doing Tesla any good. It is far too expensive for them to do properly and distracts from delivering cool and practical electric vehicles.

    Humans have done "live testing" on the road since vehicles began. That's how humans learn. Why should machines be different?
    If as an independent driver I hit a road barrier, that's my problem. If I am outsourcing that task to Tesla, it's Tesla's problem. Although autonomous driving systems have a potentially large safety benefit, in practice they will need to come with at least an order of magnitude fewer fatalities

    I haven't read Tesla's claim but it seems to be that the system can't cope fully with concrete barriers lacking markings, perhaps similar to this one:

    Concrete barrier no markings.

    Taking a safety critical approach, how the car deals with concrete barriers is fully specified. Still at the specification stage you set out all the conditions the car has to deal with and how it does so, you drill down into the software and hardware components and specify things like contrast sensitivity in the cameras and software signals that deliver the correct behaviour for each condition specified in the requirements. You test edge conditions on different physical barriers. Finally you test in the field to validate your model's assumptions. If you find something that doesn't work correctly you add into the model and incorporate the adjustment. You can only do that if you take a very rigorous approach to model development.

    I make two points from the aircraft business, which has this safety critical approach to certification. Firstly, it is very expensive. It costs an aircraft manufacturer in the order of $10 billion to develop a new aircraft. Secondly it is easy to lose control of your model so you no longer know what you are testing for certification. This happened to COMAC with its ARJ21 aircraft and Boeing with its 787 aircraft. Boeing was lucky to get its aircraft certified - the US Federal Aviation Authority cut them some slack. Even so the delays and rework came to billions of dollars of extra expense.
  • Options
    AnneJGPAnneJGP Posts: 2,869
    Cookie said:

    Nigelb said:

    Off-topic:

    The NTSB are unhappy with Tesla:
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-43617752

    It's not beyond the bounds of possibility that Tesla will go bust (they are currently borrowing at junk bond rates).
    I wonder who would snap up their assets ?
    Would make sense for one of the deep pocketed tech companies with an interest in getting into transportation, perhaps even more than for one of the big carmakers...


    It'd be interesting to see if and how recent events change things.
    I believe there is another thing on top of the data. I can foresee a Netflix style service for self-driving cars, rather than people buying them you pay a monthly fee for the ability to do what Uber does at the moment, but the car drives itself.

    Controlling this space would be incredibly powerful and lucrative.
    Indeed - so much so, that the anger at Elon Musk at drinks thing I attended for lawyers in the "environmental space" was palpable. His cars are too nice to drive and they give people the idea that driving isn't evil, apparently. One person actually said to me "and how do we stop people driving, if we can't tax the fuel and make them feel bad?"
    Why would we want to?
    Because 1) even an electric car still has a much bigger environmental impact than public transport, walking or cycling, and 2) because even if it didn't cars are a hugely space-inefficient- and therefore, due to congestion, time-inefficient - way of getting people around denseley packed urban areas.

    I'm not an eco-nut. I acknowledge that outside the big cities, argument 1 fails the but-I-can't-make-the-journeys-I-want test, and argument 2 is much less of a problem. I'm just answering the question.

    Mobility as a service is a very interesting area of study, and I'm confident that in cities at least it will take off in ten years. I'm also pretty confident car ownership will continue to decline. Having two cars on my drive - one of them massive - because once a week my wife and I both need to drive somewhere at the same time, and once a year we need to drive a whole family and a lot of stuff to Cornwall, is a very inefficient use of assets. Car clubs are growing, and are much more cost effective if you drive less frequently, or if you drive a second car only infrequently. As yet, you only get them in the most urban areas. But they are growing.

    I've started thinking about getting a mobility scooter simply as a means of local transport. Don't suppose I will, but it started to look a good option recently during lengthy roadworks.

    Good evening, everybody.
  • Options
    SandpitSandpit Posts: 49,847
    Yorkcity said:

    Sandpit said:

    Yorkcity said:

    Sandpit said:

    Yorkcity said:
    Who was it that said that it’s better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to open your mouth and remove all doubt?
    No idea Sandpit direct your response in a reply to the acedemics , if it makes you feel better.
    The quote actually goes back to the Bible (Proverbs 17:28) and yes, aimed at the academics rather than your good self.
    My apologies .
    Not required, but nonetheless accepted graciously.
  • Options
    FF43FF43 Posts: 15,692

    No doubt all the people who attacked Juncker for congratulating Putin will be quick to condemn this tweet.
    https://twitter.com/BorisJohnson/status/980838883150704645

    Did Sisi just order the murder of someone on our soil using a prohibited chemical weapon?
    He did presumably murder and torture an Italian national and Cambridge University student on Egyptian soil. So not the same deviation from the norms as Putin, but definitely not a respectable person. Also I suggest not good for either Egypt or us ultimately.

    https://www.nytimes.com/2017/08/15/magazine/giulio-regeni-italian-graduate-student-tortured-murdered-egypt.html
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    daodaodaodao Posts: 821

    Momentum has warned its supporters that accusations of antisemitism in Labour are not rightwing smears or conspiracy, saying unconscious anti-Jewish bias is “more widespread in the Labour party than many of us had understood even a few months ago”.

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2018/apr/02/labour-antisemitism-more-widespread-than-thought-momentum-says

    I am not sure tweeting pictures of things like signs saying "Arbeit macht frei" is unconscious...

    Traditionally "arbeit macht frei" meant management were Nazis rather than being anti-semitic (unless it was a Jewish firm, of course) though perhaps the zeitgeist has changed.
    But why use it in this climate. This weekend we have had trouble on the Israel Palestine border and Winnie Mandela's death but complete silence from Corbyn.

    Last weeks debate in the HOC Corbyn prevented question from conservative MP's though he accepted them from his side.He has not conducted one interview with any journalist recently. ...
    My local paper (the Altrincham & Sale Messenger) published a full length interview with Corbyn in its latest edition (29/3/18) after he came to Trafford to launch Labour's local election campaign. He talked sense. The Tory-run local council likes to outsource provision of services and some of them are a disgrace; local roads are appallingly maintained.
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    MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 50,095
    Anazina said:

    viewcode said:

    viewcode said:

    Anazina said:

    There are exceptions of course (I have never seen Misaeng) but the simple truth is that very few modern series are worth their run time. The vast majority are flabby from the start, or else extended to breaking point.

    Indeed. If there had never been a "True Detective" series 2, we would have extremely fond memories of "True Detective" series 1. I think "Westworld" series 2 might also be such a mistake.

    True Detective Season 2...dear oh dear oh dear...unwatchable.
    Indeed.
    I couldn’t bear series 1! An undoubtably excellent performance by McConaughey but with a plot and environment so bleak I found it unwatchable.
    But the best dialogue writing of any series in recent years (IMHO).
  • Options
    SandpitSandpit Posts: 49,847
    FF43 said:

    FF43 said:



    ?
    If as an independent driver I hit a road barrier, that's my problem. If I am outsourcing that task to Tesla, it's Tesla's problem. Although autonomous driving systems have a potentially large safety benefit, in practice they will need to come with at least an order of magnitude fewer fatalities

    I haven't read Tesla's claim but it seems to be that the system can't cope fully with concrete barriers lacking markings, perhaps similar to this one:

    Concrete barrier no markings.

    Taking a safety critical approach, how the car deals with concrete barriers is fully specified. Still at the specification stage you set out all the conditions the car has to deal with and how it does so, you drill down into the software and hardware components and specify things like contrast sensitivity in the cameras and software signals that deliver the correct behaviour for each condition specified in the requirements. You test edge conditions on different physical barriers. Finally you test in the field to validate your model's assumptions. If you find something that doesn't work correctly you add into the model and incorporate the adjustment. You can only do that if you take a very rigorous approach to model development.

    I make two points from the aircraft business, which has this safety critical approach to certification. Firstly, it is very expensive. It costs an aircraft manufacturer in the order of $10 billion to develop a new aircraft. Secondly it is easy to lose control of your model so you no longer know what you are testing for certification. This happened to COMAC with its ARJ21 aircraft and Boeing with its 787 aircraft. Boeing was lucky to get its aircraft certified - the US Federal Aviation Authority cut them some slack. Even so the delays and rework came to billions of dollars of extra expense.
    Agree completely. The design and certification of autonomous cars needs to be to public transport standards, same as for planes and trains. As you say this is very expensive indeed and the process with modern technology will almost certainly result in a number of major setbacks along the way.

    My view has always been that the acceptance of driverless cars is more of an issue of regulation and insurance, than it is with the actual technology itself. How many deaths and serious injuries will the public accept for this technology? In the USA in particular, the current levels are shockingly high - but the mind thinks differently when it’s something completely out of your own control - as you say it probably needs to be an order of magnitude safer, so only 10 deaths per *day*. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Motor_vehicle_fatality_rate_in_U.S._by_year
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    CookieCookie Posts: 11,364
    daodao said:

    Momentum has warned its supporters that accusations of antisemitism in Labour are not rightwing smears or conspiracy, saying unconscious anti-Jewish bias is “more widespread in the Labour party than many of us had understood even a few months ago”.

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2018/apr/02/labour-antisemitism-more-widespread-than-thought-momentum-says

    I am not sure tweeting pictures of things like signs saying "Arbeit macht frei" is unconscious...

    Traditionally "arbeit macht frei" meant management were Nazis rather than being anti-semitic (unless it was a Jewish firm, of course) though perhaps the zeitgeist has changed.
    But why use it in this climate. This weekend we have had trouble on the Israel Palestine border and Winnie Mandela's death but complete silence from Corbyn.

    Last weeks debate in the HOC Corbyn prevented question from conservative MP's though he accepted them from his side.He has not conducted one interview with any journalist recently. ...
    My local paper (the Altrincham & Sale Messenger) published a full length interview with Corbyn in its latest edition (29/3/18) after he came to Trafford to launch Labour's local election campaign. He talked sense. The Tory-run local council likes to outsource provision of services and some of them are a disgrace; local roads are appallingly maintained.
    Trafford are also my local council - can't say I've noticed the local services (or the quality of the local roads) is any different to anywhere else. I don't know what Manchester next door do, but I'd say TRafford's roads are better than Manchester's.
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    daodao said:

    Momentum has warned its supporters that accusations of antisemitism in Labour are not rightwing smears or conspiracy, saying unconscious anti-Jewish bias is “more widespread in the Labour party than many of us had understood even a few months ago”.

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2018/apr/02/labour-antisemitism-more-widespread-than-thought-momentum-says

    I am not sure tweeting pictures of things like signs saying "Arbeit macht frei" is unconscious...

    Traditionally "arbeit macht frei" meant management were Nazis rather than being anti-semitic (unless it was a Jewish firm, of course) though perhaps the zeitgeist has changed.
    But why use it in this climate. This weekend we have had trouble on the Israel Palestine border and Winnie Mandela's death but complete silence from Corbyn.

    Last weeks debate in the HOC Corbyn prevented question from conservative MP's though he accepted them from his side.He has not conducted one interview with any journalist recently. ...
    My local paper (the Altrincham & Sale Messenger) published a full length interview with Corbyn in its latest edition (29/3/18) after he came to Trafford to launch Labour's local election campaign. He talked sense. The Tory-run local council likes to outsource provision of services and some of them are a disgrace; local roads are appallingly maintained.
    I was referring to the national media and Corbyn would makes matters far worse for local communities. I remember the strikes, rubbish left rotting in the streets and the dead left unburied under the last socialist government
  • Options
    kle4kle4 Posts: 91,645

    No doubt all the people who attacked Juncker for congratulating Putin will be quick to condemn this tweet.
    https://twitter.com/BorisJohnson/status/980838883150704645

    I didn't condemn Juncker for his congratulations, and I'll just sigh at that tweet. Foreign affairs does not lead to any heroes of morality. It doesn't mean we must never do anything, but everyone works with bastards, so while some are dirtier and more horrid than others, no one is entirely clean.
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    CookieCookie Posts: 11,364
    AnneJGP said:

    Cookie said:

    Nigelb said:

    Off-topic:



    .


    Controlling this space would be incredibly powerful and lucrative.
    ?"
    Why would we want to?
    Because 1) even an electric car still has a much bigger environmental impact than public transport, walking or cycling, and 2) because even if it didn't cars are a hugely space-inefficient- and therefore, due to congestion, time-inefficient - way of getting people around denseley packed urban areas.

    I'm not an eco-nut. I acknowledge that outside the big cities, argument 1 fails the but-I-can't-make-the-journeys-I-want test, and argument 2 is much less of a problem. I'm just answering the question.

    Mobility as a service is a very interesting area of study, and I'm confident that in cities at least it will take off in ten years. I'm also pretty confident car ownership will continue to decline. Having two cars on my drive - one of them massive - because once a week my wife and I both need to drive somewhere at the same time, and once a year we need to drive a whole family and a lot of stuff to Cornwall, is a very inefficient use of assets. Car clubs are growing, and are much more cost effective if you drive less frequently, or if you drive a second car only infrequently. As yet, you only get them in the most urban areas. But they are growing.

    I've started thinking about getting a mobility scooter simply as a means of local transport. Don't suppose I will, but it started to look a good option recently during lengthy roadworks.

    Good evening, everybody.
    The problem you are attempting to get around is that moving peopleby car takes up a lot of roadspace, and thus almost inevitably in urban areas leads to congestion as everyone tries to use the limited roadspace that there is at once. I don't know how able-bodied you are - I'm inferring you're being flippant about the mobility scooter. I'd encourage you to try a bike - most journeys in urbanm areas under 4-5 miles are quicker by bike at peak times. If you're not confident your level of fitness would be up to it, I'd urge you to have a go with an electric bike. All the benefits of going by bike (i.e. no traffic delays) but with a fraction of the physical effort. Of course, they don't work for all journeys - I wouldn't want to pilot one from Manchester to Liverpool, or use one when I had a lot of stuff or children to transport - but for 60-70% of the journeys most people make they are perfect.
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    kle4kle4 Posts: 91,645

    We can all rejoice that the Arab Spring brought democracy to Egypt:

    "Egyptian President Abdul Fattah al-Sisi has been re-elected for a second four-year term, after winning 97% of the vote last week, official results show."

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-43616270

    97%, why that is what Bashar Al_Assad got as well in 2007, what a coincidence.

    Actually, a British Syrian of my acquaintance definitely takes the 'lesser of many evils' stance when it comes to Assad.
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    Anazina said:

    viewcode said:

    viewcode said:

    Anazina said:

    There are exceptions of course (I have never seen Misaeng) but the simple truth is that very few modern series are worth their run time. The vast majority are flabby from the start, or else extended to breaking point.

    Indeed. If there had never been a "True Detective" series 2, we would have extremely fond memories of "True Detective" series 1. I think "Westworld" series 2 might also be such a mistake.

    True Detective Season 2...dear oh dear oh dear...unwatchable.
    Indeed.
    I couldn’t bear series 1! An undoubtably excellent performance by McConaughey but with a plot and environment so bleak I found it unwatchable.
    But the best dialogue writing of any series in recent years (IMHO).
    I reckon Deadwood had some of the best dialoque of any series I have seen.
  • Options
    MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 50,095

    Anazina said:

    viewcode said:

    viewcode said:

    Anazina said:

    There are exceptions of course (I have never seen Misaeng) but the simple truth is that very few modern series are worth their run time. The vast majority are flabby from the start, or else extended to breaking point.

    Indeed. If there had never been a "True Detective" series 2, we would have extremely fond memories of "True Detective" series 1. I think "Westworld" series 2 might also be such a mistake.

    True Detective Season 2...dear oh dear oh dear...unwatchable.
    Indeed.
    I couldn’t bear series 1! An undoubtably excellent performance by McConaughey but with a plot and environment so bleak I found it unwatchable.
    But the best dialogue writing of any series in recent years (IMHO).
    I reckon Deadwood had some of the best dialoque of any series I have seen.
    Not seen it yet. Will stick it on the list with that recommendation!
  • Options
    RecidivistRecidivist Posts: 4,679

    daodao said:

    Momentum has warned its supporters that accusations of antisemitism in Labour are not rightwing smears or conspiracy, saying unconscious anti-Jewish bias is “more widespread in the Labour party than many of us had understood even a few months ago”.

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2018/apr/02/labour-antisemitism-more-widespread-than-thought-momentum-says

    I am not sure tweeting pictures of things like signs saying "Arbeit macht frei" is unconscious...

    Traditionally "arbeit macht frei" meant management were Nazis rather than being anti-semitic (unless it was a Jewish firm, of course) though perhaps the zeitgeist has changed.
    But why use it in this climate. This weekend we have had trouble on the Israel Palestine border and Winnie Mandela's death but complete silence from Corbyn.

    Last weeks debate in the HOC Corbyn prevented question from conservative MP's though he accepted them from his side.He has not conducted one interview with any journalist recently. ...
    My local paper (the Altrincham & Sale Messenger) published a full length interview with Corbyn in its latest edition (29/3/18) after he came to Trafford to launch Labour's local election campaign. He talked sense. The Tory-run local council likes to outsource provision of services and some of them are a disgrace; local roads are appallingly maintained.
    I was referring to the national media and Corbyn would makes matters far worse for local communities. I remember the strikes, rubbish left rotting in the streets and the dead left unburied under the last socialist government
    There weren't that many dead left unburied. It was unofficial action, i.e., not sanctioned by the unions themselves, in two cemeteries for a couple of weeks. I remember the rubbish in the streets too, and also how quickly and efficiently it was cleared away when the dispute was over. I think our local council must have got some Wombles in on a special contract. I was very so young so found the whole episode rather exciting, but even allowing for that that era wasn't the nightmare it is often portrayed as.
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    AnneJGPAnneJGP Posts: 2,869
    Cookie said:



    The problem you are attempting to get around is that moving car takes up a lot of roadspace, and thus almost inevitably in urban areas leads to congestion as everyone tries to use the limited roadspace that there is at once. I don't know how able-bodied you are - I'm inferring you're being flippant about the mobility scooter. I'd encourage you to try a bike - most journeys in urban areas under 4-5 miles are quicker by bike at peak times. If you're not confident your level of fitness would be up to it, I'd urge you to have a go with an electric bike. All the benefits of going by bike (i.e. no traffic delays) but with a fraction of the physical effort. Of course, they don't work for all journeys - I wouldn't want to pilot one from Manchester to Liverpool, or use one when I had a lot of stuff or children to transport - but for 60-70% of the journeys most people make they are perfect.

    I have thought about an electric bike.

    An ordinary bike is out of the question for me. A further difficulty is that my physical control of a bike is very poor, partly because my balance is not good & partly because I'm just clumsy.

    I'm not altogether being flippant about the scooter for local transport.
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    another_richardanother_richard Posts: 25,046

    Anazina said:

    viewcode said:

    viewcode said:

    Anazina said:

    There are exceptions of course (I have never seen Misaeng) but the simple truth is that very few modern series are worth their run time. The vast majority are flabby from the start, or else extended to breaking point.

    Indeed. If there had never been a "True Detective" series 2, we would have extremely fond memories of "True Detective" series 1. I think "Westworld" series 2 might also be such a mistake.

    True Detective Season 2...dear oh dear oh dear...unwatchable.
    Indeed.
    I couldn’t bear series 1! An undoubtably excellent performance by McConaughey but with a plot and environment so bleak I found it unwatchable.
    But the best dialogue writing of any series in recent years (IMHO).
    I reckon Deadwood had some of the best dialoque of any series I have seen.
    Not seen it yet. Will stick it on the list with that recommendation!
    Its good.

    But don't watch it if the word 'cocksucker' offends you.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u4D3UdxM3OU
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    JohnLilburneJohnLilburne Posts: 6,006
    Sandpit said:



    My view has always been that the acceptance of driverless cars is more of an issue of regulation and insurance, than it is with the actual technology itself. How many deaths and serious injuries will the public accept for this technology? In the USA in particular, the current levels are shockingly high - but the mind thinks differently when it’s something completely out of your own control - as you say it probably needs to be an order of magnitude safer, so only 10 deaths per *day*. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Motor_vehicle_fatality_rate_in_U.S._by_year

    Surely you need to have both radar and visual systems on autonomous cars
This discussion has been closed.