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  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,719
    ydoethur said:

    JonWC said:


    I'd like to bet that the majority of people in provincial Britain (which is most of it) don't know anyone who is visibly Jewish, wouldn't know an anti-Semitic trope if it came up and bit them on the bum, and are thoroughly bemused by the whole issue which is one they didn't realise existed.

    You would lose your bet. There are plenty of Jewish people outside London and most people would know what anti-Semitism looks like because it is a key plank of the school curriculum and has been for thirty years.

    A more realistic question would be, how much will those who are already committed to Corbyn care? After all, the Tories' supporters in the media went big on Corbyn's past last year, and though so far as I can see they didn't make a single thing up - indeed they downplayed one or two things, presumably fearing costly if futile libel actions - it was dismissed as 'fake news' and 'media smears.'

    My instinct is that those who support his policies - the ones where he promised free nationalisation of utilities, free tuition fees, free new roads and railways and lower taxes - are not going to be bothered about the fact that he doesn't care how racist he and his supporters appear.
    When has Corbyn promised lower taxes? He has said most tax rises will be focused on the rich but that is not the same as promising lower taxes
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 66,769

    ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    JonWC said:


    I'd like to bet that the majority of people in provincial Britain (which is most of it) don't know anyone who is visibly Jewish, wouldn't know an anti-Semitic trope if it came up and bit them on the bum, and are thoroughly bemused by the whole issue which is one they didn't realise existed.

    You would lose your bet. There are plenty of Jewish people outside London and most people would know what anti-Semitism looks like because it is a key plank of the school curriculum and has been for thirty years.

    A more realistic question would be, how much will those who are already committed to Corbyn care? After all, the Tories' supporters in the media went big on Corbyn's past last year, and though so far as I can see they didn't make a single thing up - indeed they downplayed one or two things, presumably fearing costly if futile libel actions - it was dismissed as 'fake news' and 'media smears.'

    My instinct is that those who support his policies - the ones where he promised free nationalisation of utilities, free tuition fees, free new roads and railways and lower taxes - are not going to be bothered about the fact that he doesn't care how racist he and his supporters appear.
    The bigger political issue is how many of Corbyn's Coaliton - the 40% he constructed last June - are looking at this unfolding issue, seeing how badly the Prime Ministerial credibilty of Corbyn has come out of it, catching the whiff of anti-semitism and are thinking to themselves "I didn't sign up for this...." If Labour takes a 2% or more hit in the polls on the back of this, then JCWNBPM.
    To which I must add the caveat - as long as the Tories do not lose an equivalent or greater share of the vote.

    Which given they haven't covered themselves in glory in the last year, recent improvements notwithstanding, seems eminently possible.
    Where are the votes going to go? UKIP is dead, and the Lib dems are nowhere.
    Abstention is a possibility that shouldn't be ruled out, even if Corbyn does provide a modicum of insurance against it.

    But I think you underrate the threat from the Lib Dems. In a sense, invisibility may help if they become again the 'none of the above named pathetic losers party.'

    If people don't want to vote Conservative, they will find an excuse and a means. Complacency is the most fatal of all political diseases.
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 35,776

    Roger said:

    ydoethur said:

    JonWC said:


    I'd like to bet that the majority of people in provincial Britain (which is most of it) don't know anyone who is visibly Jewish, wouldn't know an anti-Semitic trope if it came up and bit them on the bum, and are thoroughly bemused by the whole issue which is one they didn't realise existed.

    You would lose your bet. There are plenty of Jewish people outside London and most people would know what anti-Semitism looks like because it is a key plank of the school curriculum and has been for thirty years.

    A more realistic question would be, how much will those who are already committed to Corbyn care? After all, the Tories' supporters in the media went big on Corbyn's past last year, and though so far as I can see they didn't make a single thing up - indeed they downplayed one or two things, presumably fearing costly if futile libel actions - it was dismissed as 'fake news' and 'media smears.'

    My instinct is that those who support his policies - the ones where he promised free nationalisation of utilities, free tuition fees, free new roads and railways and lower taxes - are not going to be bothered about the fact that he doesn't care how racist he and his supporters appear.
    In my prep school in North Wales there were 100 boys. Of these there were three Jews and one Roman Catholic. On Sundays I used to watch this solitary figure walk down the road to his church alone and think there was something odd and slightly dark about him being a Roman Catholic. Being one of the three Jews we just sat in a classroom and chilled (as they might say now). I can't say I remember anti Semitism being part of the school curriculum but perhaps that was introduced later?
    There's a deeper question here: when do views such as Islamophobia and Antisemitism become ingrained in a person? I look at my three year-old son and he's got no such traits: he seems to accept people as they are. I can say the same for the kids he plays with. Gender and colour appear to be irrelevant at that age.

    So if they are not born with such views, when do people start blaming Jews for the ills of the world, and why?

    (Substitute Muslims, women etc as appropriate).
    Personal experience, peer groups, parental opinion, studying. If you are wronged by a member of a group, or see such a person do wrong, it's easy to conclude that the whole group is like that.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 38,547

    Well, we’ve all seen the effect of ‘social media infiltrators’ on all sorts of activities and organisations. The foolish (IMHO) idea of 'Three-quidders’ was quite likely (again IMHO) quite likely to come back and bite Labour on the bum.

    But how have the Three-Quidders exploited this situation in your mind? There seems to be a disconnect between them and (say) the Labour MPs who have criticised his behaviour on this topic, or the stupid things he has done.
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 60,933
    Mr. Mark, hmm. Presumably that doesn't apply to mammoth ivory? [Not being sarcastic, mammoth ivory is used to create jewellery].
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 66,769
    HYUFD said:

    ydoethur said:

    JonWC said:


    I'd like to bet that the majority of people in provincial Britain (which is most of it) don't know anyone who is visibly Jewish, wouldn't know an anti-Semitic trope if it came up and bit them on the bum, and are thoroughly bemused by the whole issue which is one they didn't realise existed.

    You would lose your bet. There are plenty of Jewish people outside London and most people would know what anti-Semitism looks like because it is a key plank of the school curriculum and has been for thirty years.

    A more realistic question would be, how much will those who are already committed to Corbyn care? After all, the Tories' supporters in the media went big on Corbyn's past last year, and though so far as I can see they didn't make a single thing up - indeed they downplayed one or two things, presumably fearing costly if futile libel actions - it was dismissed as 'fake news' and 'media smears.'

    My instinct is that those who support his policies - the ones where he promised free nationalisation of utilities, free tuition fees, free new roads and railways and lower taxes - are not going to be bothered about the fact that he doesn't care how racist he and his supporters appear.
    When has Corbyn promised lower taxes? He has said most tax rises will be focused on the rich but that is not the same as promising lower taxes
    http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/jun/03/labour-pledges-vat-cut
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 66,769
    edited April 2018

    Well, we’ve all seen the effect of ‘social media infiltrators’ on all sorts of activities and organisations. The foolish (IMHO) idea of 'Three-quidders’ was quite likely (again IMHO) quite likely to come back and bite Labour on the bum.

    But how have the Three-Quidders exploited this situation in your mind? There seems to be a disconnect between them and (say) the Labour MPs who have criticised his behaviour on this topic, or the stupid things he has done.
    It is also worth remembering that in both leadership contests Corbyn would have won without the £3/25 supporters. He would however have had to go to a second ballot in 2015 as he only(!) had 49% of the members' votes on the first ballot.
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 20,901
    Off topic.

    I love the Easter break. And yet it's too short to be genuinely relaxing, but just long enough to get your head out of work so it's jarring to return. Sigh

  • TheJezziahTheJezziah Posts: 3,840
    edited April 2018
    TOPPING said:

    kle4 said:

    JWisemann said:

    Wrong type of jews. OK. Jezza has hung drawn and quartered Guido and his slavering idiot followers on their own petards here. Good one Jez.

    On what alternate plane of reality has it made him look better? Even leaving aside the original issues with Shawcroft, his handling of the issue has been inept. This latest problem - whether you think it is right or wrong - would obviously be used against him, and he willingly went along.
    Non Jewish people accusing Jews of being anti-semites or somehow encouraging anti-semitism is playing pretty badly with people. Saying that Corbyn meeting a Jewish group is somehow further proof of anti-semitism scandal just makes the whole thing seem questionable. If you go OTT in attacking people you discredit attacks on them.
    Nope, yet again you prefer not to see the obvious interpretation.

    Just as previously you accepted that Corbyn's antics would make anti-semites feel more comfortable and emboldened within the Labour Party (please don't make me search for that comment in the archives), so you miss the point here.

    Corbyn meeting playing the some of my best friends are Jews card was quite malevolently clever because his Jewish friends criticise heartily other Jews and hence, non-Jewish members of the Labour Party are yet again emboldened also to criticise Jews. Indeed some of these may even be bona fide anti-semites.

    You know all this, though, so not sure why it needs to be spelled out.
    I did ask you why you wanted that answer, you could have been honest, I would have still have given it to you.

    You will also remember I said that not having Corbyn antics would make anti-semites feel more comfortable and emboldened within the Labour Party (please don't make me search for that comment in the archives), so you miss the point here.

    You forget, perhaps on purpose, that both sides are not white people, if support on a sliding scale emboldens anti-semites then it does so on both sides. If you are saying that Arabs are bad and Jews are good so the morally responsible position is one that might be seen to favour Jewish people more then fair enough. I have to strongly disagree though, I cannot support a position which sees either group as good or bad or above the other.

    Whilst you may not like it Jewish people are free to have left wing views, they are free to have different views on Israel, contrary to the suggestions of racists on both sides Jewish does not equal Israel. The fact people like you dismiss them says more about you than it does them.

  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 31,724

    Well, we’ve all seen the effect of ‘social media infiltrators’ on all sorts of activities and organisations. The foolish (IMHO) idea of 'Three-quidders’ was quite likely (again IMHO) quite likely to come back and bite Labour on the bum.

    But how have the Three-Quidders exploited this situation in your mind? There seems to be a disconnect between them and (say) the Labour MPs who have criticised his behaviour on this topic, or the stupid things he has done.
    Maintaining the argument, and false indignation at what’s being said/done.

    Having looked at Jewdas on the web it looks like a spin-off from from of the wilder sections of the National Union of Students. How does one have an anarchist organisation?
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 31,724
    ydoethur said:

    Well, we’ve all seen the effect of ‘social media infiltrators’ on all sorts of activities and organisations. The foolish (IMHO) idea of 'Three-quidders’ was quite likely (again IMHO) quite likely to come back and bite Labour on the bum.

    But how have the Three-Quidders exploited this situation in your mind? There seems to be a disconnect between them and (say) the Labour MPs who have criticised his behaviour on this topic, or the stupid things he has done.
    It is also worth remembering that in both leadership contests Corbyn would have won without the £3/25 supporters. He would however have had to go to a second ballot in 2015 as he only(!) had 49% of the members' votes on the first ballot.
    True, but they were (are still?) there.
  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,074
    Metatron said:

    Is it not about time someone defined `anti-Semitism?`
    The handful of times I have walked past an Anti-Israel rally I felt the rally`s stank of Anti-Semitism.To read Jewdas claim that they proudly walked on Pro- Palestinian rallies suggests to me that they have built a myopic anti-capitalist bubble around themselves.

    This is the international definition which has been adopted by the UK government and various other governments - https://antisemitism.uk/definition/
  • PeterCPeterC Posts: 1,274
    edited April 2018
    Roger said:

    JonWC said:

    daodao said:

    Cookie said:

    Ishmael_Z said:

    In addition to the picture Guido has 22:48 minutes of audio from the meeting, so a planned bit of espionage.

    Two possibilities: 1. Corbyn genuinely loathes Israel and is not prepared to disguise the fact because he is entirely uncompromising. 2. Someone has told him there are votes in anti-Zionism. Both terrifying.

    don't. If there's one minority the country as a whole isn't even slightly sniffy about, it's the Jews.
    Jews are not the most disliked minority group in England, but probably second on the list, with Muslims first. Dietary laws, Sabbath restrictions and dislike of intermarriage stops many Jews (and similarly Muslims, who also won't drink alcohol) from fully integrating Groups that keep themselves separate tend to be the most disliked - they are perceived as not "one of us".

    dly by otherwise decent people increases; such views are usually sotto voce in England where expressing controversial views is "not the done thing" and no longer PC.

    I wish such issues were out of the headlines; it is better for Jews to be neither seen nor heard.
    I'd like to bet that the majority of people in provincial Britain (which is most of it) don't know anyone who is visibly Jewish, wouldn't know an anti-Semitic trope if it came up and bit them on the bum, and are thoroughly bemused by the whole issue which is one they didn't realise existed.
    One of the rare insightful posts on this subject. I've come to the conclusion (belatedly) that this is a completely confected issue containing not a germ of truth and I say this as someone who is Jewish and not a fan of Corbyn. For this to have any credence whatsoever you would have to find someone from the Jewish community (a community that is growing by the minute!) who might take offence.

    I have yet to meet such a person other than those who are using it as a surrogate for their support of Israeli or their support of right wing causes (which Israel now is) Orr from the ultra orthodox community a totally segregated community who have no desire to integrate. In fact to do so is forbidden.

    Please could one of our gentile posters who is currently up in arms (cyclefree S.O.) and explain who is being offended and by what?
    I am a gentile poster and have not been especially up in arms, but I would have thought that many ordinary Jews might be offended by at least some of the following:

    https://blogs.spectator.co.uk/2018/03/labours-pockets-of-anti-semitism-the-evidence/
  • RazedabodeRazedabode Posts: 2,973
    JWisemann said:

    Once again Jez has ridden out a smear storm and made it look ridiculous. Will his many enemies, driven demented by corbyn derangement syndrome, never learn?

    To call it a "smear storm", especially when Labour and Momentum have admitted it being an issue, discredits it and you. Blind Corbynism is becoming toxic and dangerous.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 40,950

    I did ask you why you wanted that answer, you could have been honest, I would have still have given it to you.

    You will also remember I said that not having Corbyn antics would make anti-semites feel more comfortable and emboldened within the Labour Party (please don't make me search for that comment in the archives), so you miss the point here.

    You forget, perhaps on purpose, that both sides are not white people, if support on a sliding scale emboldens anti-semites then it does so on both sides. If you are saying that Arabs are bad and Jews are good so the morally responsible position is one that might be seen to favour Jewish people more then fair enough. I have to strongly disagree though, I cannot support a position which sees either group as good or bad or above the other.

    Whilst you may not like it Jewish people are free to have left wing views, they are free to have different views on Israel, contrary to the suggestions of racists on both sides Jewish does not equal Israel. The fact people like you dismiss them says more about you than it does them.

    But you are ignoring context and are not seeing the wood for the trees. People of any race, religion, predilection for music or pizza toppings can like whatever they want.

    There is a very specific situation here: Jeremy Corbyn is at the heart of an anti-semitic furore. Jews have been out on the streets to protest at it and at his behaviour. Jews appear not to feel as comfortable in the Labour Party as hitherto.

    In this context, to go to a meeting of people, yes who happen to be Jews, but who also condemn the Jews who are feeling uncomfortable in the Labour Party, is to embolden (that word again) those who might not be Jews to likewise condemn Jews. Indeed, some of these latter might be anti-semitic. By so doing, therefore, Corbyn has done nothing to make such people feel that they have done anything the Labour Party disapproves of.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 91,408

    kle4 said:

    JWisemann said:

    Wrong type of jews. OK. Jezza has hung drawn and quartered Guido and his slavering idiot followers on their own petards here. Good one Jez.

    You might perhaps actually take note of what most people are saying is the issue rather than what you wish most people were saying. Guido always takes things too far, he's a partisan it's what he does, but that doesn't mean meeting s group which has been dismissive of the current scandal was a sensible move for corbyn. If you think the scandal deserves dismissing Corbyn disagrees, so this will not have helped hin even if it does not end up hurting him
    I have to disagree to be honest, the backlash against this story has in some places once again made Corbyn look better. Much like the communist spy nonsense, although without the Ben Bradley apology payoff, they have overplayed their hand and made themselves look like propagandists who smear rather than actual news.

    One of the things that has always drove Corbyn to an extent is the OTT accusations thrown at him and the negative reaction to that, I can easily see this adding to that list.
    But it is news if he chooses to hang around with people who dismiss the scandal as nonsense. Guido is OTT on everything but it's still noteworthy, if not as much as he thinks it is. an accusation of anti semitism for attending a Seder would be OTT, but an accusation he does not take the overall scandal seriously is not OTT.

    Surely it is reasonable to raise concerns even if others are taking them way too far?
  • RogerRoger Posts: 18,891
    Sean_F said:

    JWisemann said:

    Once again Jez has ridden out a smear storm and made it look ridiculous. Will his many enemies, driven demented by corbyn derangement syndrome, never learn?

    I don't think this has helped Corbyn at all. This issue won't turn millions of people away from Labour, but it helps to reinforce the view that May is the safer option.
    On balance I think it's harmed him. Not because of any anti-Semitism issue which few care about and even less believe but what it tells us about his leadership. No one wants to have a PM so feeble that he's prepared to sell his party and his followers down the river to appease right wingers with an agenda. They are seeing a leader who is prepared to call his own party racists for electoral advantage
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 58,044
    Corbyn really is Trump or maybe Millwall. He just not care what anyone thinks of him. Never has and never will. That is the only conclusion we can draw from last night.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 66,769
    In a sense, those defending or attacking Corbyn with rare exceptions are missing the point.

    The key thing he has done is ensure that the latest cycle of bad headlines has lasted all the way through the bank holiday and into the following week.

    He has also indicated that he believes as Leader of the Opposition he can visit groups in a personal capacity without endorsing them in an official capacity, which shows to put it mildly a shaky grasp of media reality.

    In effect, whether or not he genuinely is an anti-Semite and whether or not he intends to deal with the problem he's identified (or whether he intends to 'deal with it' in the way he dealt with student loans) he has raised all the doubts and concerns about his fitness and ability to lead that were thought to have been put to bed by the general election.
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 31,724
    PeterC said:

    Roger said:

    JonWC said:

    daodao said:

    Cookie said:

    Ishmael_Z said:

    In addition to the picture Guido has 22:48 minutes of audio from the meeting, so a planned bit of espionage.

    Two possibilities: 1. Corbyn genuinely loathes Israel and is not prepared to disguise the fact because he is entirely uncompromising. 2. Someone has told him there are votes in anti-Zionism. Both terrifying.

    don't. If there's one minority the country as a whole isn't even slightly sniffy about, it's the Jews.
    Jews are not the most disliked minority group in England, but probably second on the list, with Muslims first. Dietary laws, Sabbath restrictions and dislike of intermarriage stops many Jews (and similarly Muslims, who also won't drink alcohol) from fully integrating Groups that keep themselves separate tend to be the most disliked - they are perceived as not "one of us".

    dly by otherwise decent people increases; such views are usually sotto voce in England where expressing controversial views is "not the done thing" and no longer PC.

    I wish such issues were out of the headlines; it is better for Jews to be neither seen nor heard.
    I'd like to bet that the majority of people in provincial Britain (which is most of it) don't know anyone who is visibly Jewish, wouldn't know an anti-Semitic trope if it came up and bit them on the bum, and are thoroughly bemused by the whole issue which is one they didn't realise existed.
    One of the rare insightful posts on this subject. I've come to the conclusion (belatedly) that this is a completely confected issue containing not a germ of truth and I say this as someone who is Jewish and not a fan of Corbyn. For this to have any credence whatsoever you would have to find someone from the Jewish community (a community that is growing by the minute!) who might take offence.

    I have yet to meet such a person other than those who are using it as a surrogate for their support of Israeli or their support of right wing causes (which Israel now is) Orr from the ultra orthodox community a totally segregated community who have no desire to integrate. In fact to do so is forbidden.

    Please could one of our gentile posters who is currently up in arms (cyclefree S.O.) and explain who is being offended and by what?
    I am a gentile poster and have not been especially up in arms, but I would have thought that many ordinary Jews might be offended by at least some of the following:

    https://blogs.spectator.co.uk/2018/03/labours-pockets-of-anti-semitism-the-evidence/
    There are, anen’t there, some ill-educated people about. As a gentile I found some of those comments offensive.
  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,074

    I may be excessively cynical, but I suspect that Seamus Milne has made the calculation that there are more votes to be won by attracting muslims than repelling jews. Corbyn may not be anti-semite, but is just following his master's voice.

    That would be cynical. More importantly, it is repulsive and insulting both to Jews and Muslims, the former because it dismisses their very real fears and the latter because it asssumes that they are all anti-Jewish and that it is fine to appeal to their baser instincts rather than to challenge those instincts.

    I do find it odd and worrying that people feel the need to use such intemperate language when criticising Israel. “sewage” - really? It does suggest something darker and hateful that may be animated by something more than distaste at the policies of its government.
  • kle4 said:

    kle4 said:

    JWisemann said:

    Wrong type of jews. OK. Jezza has hung drawn and quartered Guido and his slavering idiot followers on their own petards here. Good one Jez.

    You might perhaps actually take note of what most people are saying is the issue rather than what you wish most people were saying. Guido always takes things too far, he's a partisan it's what he does, but that doesn't mean meeting s group which has been dismissive of the current scandal was a sensible move for corbyn. If you think the scandal deserves dismissing Corbyn disagrees, so this will not have helped hin even if it does not end up hurting him
    I have to disagree to be honest, the backlash against this story has in some places once again made Corbyn look better. Much like the communist spy nonsense, although without the Ben Bradley apology payoff, they have overplayed their hand and made themselves look like propagandists who smear rather than actual news.

    One of the things that has always drove Corbyn to an extent is the OTT accusations thrown at him and the negative reaction to that, I can easily see this adding to that list.
    But it is news if he chooses to hang around with people who dismiss the scandal as nonsense. Guido is OTT on everything but it's still noteworthy, if not as much as he thinks it is. an accusation of anti semitism for attending a Seder would be OTT, but an accusation he does not take the overall scandal seriously is not OTT.

    Surely it is reasonable to raise concerns even if others are taking them way too far?
    As in the thread header the interesting thing in this story is just who leaked the video and the audio to Guido
  • ydoethur said:

    In a sense, those defending or attacking Corbyn with rare exceptions are missing the point.

    The key thing he has done is ensure that the latest cycle of bad headlines has lasted all the way through the bank holiday and into the following week.

    He has also indicated that he believes as Leader of the Opposition he can visit groups in a personal capacity without endorsing them in an official capacity, which shows to put it mildly a shaky grasp of media reality.

    In effect, whether or not he genuinely is an anti-Semite and whether or not he intends to deal with the problem he's identified (or whether he intends to 'deal with it' in the way he dealt with student loans) he has raised all the doubts and concerns about his fitness and ability to lead that were thought to have been put to bed by the general election.

    It is continuing in the news cycle and it is just giving the impression to voters of a labour civil war over anti semitism. I doubt most understand the detail but it is a constant drip of negative news for labour
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 66,769
    edited April 2018
    Meanwhile, Australia are being given a more brutal thrashing than a client who is paying a dominatrix by the lash. If only England had bowled like Big Vern...
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 31,724

    kle4 said:

    kle4 said:

    JWisemann said:

    Wrong type of jews. OK. Jezza has hung drawn and quartered Guido and his slavering idiot followers on their own petards here. Good one Jez.

    You might perhaps actually take note of what most people are saying is the issue rather than what you wish most people were saying. Guido always takes things too far, he's a partisan it's what he does, but that doesn't mean meeting s group which has been dismissive of the current scandal was a sensible move for corbyn. If you think the scandal deserves dismissing Corbyn disagrees, so this will not have helped hin even if it does not end up hurting him
    I have to disagree to be honest, the backlash against this story has in some places once again made Corbyn look better. Much like the communist spy nonsense, although without the Ben Bradley apology payoff, they have overplayed their hand and made themselves look like propagandists who smear rather than actual news.

    One of the things that has always drove Corbyn to an extent is the OTT accusations thrown at him and the negative reaction to that, I can easily see this adding to that list.
    But it is news if he chooses to hang around with people who dismiss the scandal as nonsense. Guido is OTT on everything but it's still noteworthy, if not as much as he thinks it is. an accusation of anti semitism for attending a Seder would be OTT, but an accusation he does not take the overall scandal seriously is not OTT.

    Surely it is reasonable to raise concerns even if others are taking them way too far?
    As in the thread header the interesting thing in this story is just who leaked the video and the audio to Guido
    See my post earlier, which was rubbished by Mr JJ,
  • TheJezziahTheJezziah Posts: 3,840
    edited April 2018
    TOPPING said:

    I did ask you why you wanted that answer, you could have been honest, I would have still have given it to you.

    You will also remember I said that not having Corbyn antics would make anti-semites feel more comfortable and emboldened within the Labour Party (please don't make me search for that comment in the archives), so you miss the point here.

    You forget, perhaps on purpose, that both sides are not white people, if support on a sliding scale emboldens anti-semites then it does so on both sides. If you are saying that Arabs are bad and Jews are good so the morally responsible position is one that might be seen to favour Jewish people more then fair enough. I have to strongly disagree though, I cannot support a position which sees either group as good or bad or above the other.

    Whilst you may not like it Jewish people are free to have left wing views, they are free to have different views on Israel, contrary to the suggestions of racists on both sides Jewish does not equal Israel. The fact people like you dismiss them says more about you than it does them.

    But you are ignoring context and are not seeing the wood for the trees. People of any race, religion, predilection for music or pizza toppings can like whatever they want.

    There is a very specific situation here: Jeremy Corbyn is at the heart of an anti-semitic furore. Jews have been out on the streets to protest at it and at his behaviour. Jews appear not to feel as comfortable in the Labour Party as hitherto.

    In this context, to go to a meeting of people, yes who happen to be Jews, but who also condemn the Jews who are feeling uncomfortable in the Labour Party, is to embolden (that word again) those who might not be Jews to likewise condemn Jews. Indeed, some of these latter might be anti-semitic. By so doing, therefore, Corbyn has done nothing to make such people feel that they have done anything the Labour Party disapproves of.
    If people think going to a group that is left wing and disapproves of Israel makes them feel uncomfortable then I'm sorry that is tough, people do not get to decide Labour's Israel-Palestine policy on what makes them feel uncomfortable.

    I'm sure the pro Israeli's policies of many makes many others feel uncomfortable, also tough.

    Democracy doesn't work by you stating you are uncomfortable with something and then it goes away.

    Edit: I think many have stated they are uncomfortable with some of the changes to benefits.

    Also as previously pointed out the emboldening is a sliding scale so we are emboldening whatever we do, just which way the emboldening goes. Which is why ultimately you should always just make the right decision rather than try to think which group of racists will like which decision however minutely.

  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 58,044

    ydoethur said:

    In a sense, those defending or attacking Corbyn with rare exceptions are missing the point.

    The key thing he has done is ensure that the latest cycle of bad headlines has lasted all the way through the bank holiday and into the following week.

    He has also indicated that he believes as Leader of the Opposition he can visit groups in a personal capacity without endorsing them in an official capacity, which shows to put it mildly a shaky grasp of media reality.

    In effect, whether or not he genuinely is an anti-Semite and whether or not he intends to deal with the problem he's identified (or whether he intends to 'deal with it' in the way he dealt with student loans) he has raised all the doubts and concerns about his fitness and ability to lead that were thought to have been put to bed by the general election.

    It is continuing in the news cycle and it is just giving the impression to voters of a labour civil war over anti semitism. I doubt most understand the detail but it is a constant drip of negative news for labour
    :+1:

    And the Cult get to blame Blairites and the media. So they are happy.
  • NorthofStokeNorthofStoke Posts: 1,758
    I think the problem for Corbyn is that to some voters this meeting and the current controversies will make him look an extremist and a somewhat obsessive crackpot rather than someone who had a an ill-judged past that he has put behind him.
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 31,724

    I think the problem for Corbyn is that to some voters this meeting and the current controversies will make him look an extremist and a somewhat obsessive crackpot rather than someone who had a an ill-judged past that he has put behind him.

    Good post.
  • bigjohnowlsbigjohnowls Posts: 21,725
    On Topic.

    So its now Anti Semitic to meet with Jewish Socialists to celebrate Passover.

    Jews who criticise Israel are Anti Semitic now are they.

    Just proves Socialism rather than Anti Semitism is the problem.

    As if we didn't already know that.
  • oxfordsimonoxfordsimon Posts: 5,831
    Typical of Williamson to be so blinkered as to ignore the reality of the situation.

    It is not Guido who created this, it was Corbyn - who chose to attend this event.

    If Corbyn had not made this choice, no-one could have taken photos of him there or recorded the audio. He made the choice and has to live with the consequences.

    Any media outlet would have run with this story - because it IS a story.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 66,769

    Just proves Socialism rather than Anti Semitism is the problem.

    Must be too early in the morning. I misread that as 'Satanism' and I was startled to learn Corbyn had been accused of that...
  • ElliotElliot Posts: 1,516

    On Topic.

    So its now Anti Semitic to meet with Jewish Socialists to celebrate Passover.

    Jews who criticise Israel are Anti Semitic now are they.

    Just proves Socialism rather than Anti Semitism is the problem.

    As if we didn't already know that.

    This is the fourth time a Corbynista in this thread has pushed this stupid strawman argument. Is it being sent out in Momentum talking points?

    No, no-one says it is anti-Semitic to meet with Jewdas. It is, however, a clear signal that he's not serious about addressing the concerns of those worried about anti-Semitism.
  • TheWhiteRabbitTheWhiteRabbit Posts: 12,387
    Elliot said:

    On Topic.

    So its now Anti Semitic to meet with Jewish Socialists to celebrate Passover.

    Jews who criticise Israel are Anti Semitic now are they.

    Just proves Socialism rather than Anti Semitism is the problem.

    As if we didn't already know that.

    This is the fourth time a Corbynista in this thread has pushed this stupid strawman argument. Is it being sent out in Momentum talking points?

    No, no-one says it is anti-Semitic to meet with Jewdas. It is, however, a clear signal that he's not serious about addressing the concerns of those worried about anti-Semitism.
    Maybe this is the argument Jeremy wanted to have?
  • oxfordsimonoxfordsimon Posts: 5,831

    On Topic.

    So its now Anti Semitic to meet with Jewish Socialists to celebrate Passover.

    Jews who criticise Israel are Anti Semitic now are they.

    Just proves Socialism rather than Anti Semitism is the problem.

    As if we didn't already know that.

    FFS

    No one, I repeat NO ONE, has said that the decision to attend this particular event is evidence of antisemitism. No one is making that claim AT ALL.

    This is all about Corbyn's lack of judgement by attending an event which would only serve to keep this issue in the news cycle.
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 60,004
    edited April 2018

    On Topic.

    So its now Anti Semitic to meet with Jewish Socialists to celebrate Passover.

    Jews who criticise Israel are Anti Semitic now are they.

    Just proves Socialism rather than Anti Semitism is the problem.

    As if we didn't already know that.

    The audio of that meeting is just horrible for any fair minded person.

    The media are not playing it as far as I can see

    Guido helpfully being quoted by Adam Boulton on Sky following a tweet by Jewdas

    'Israel is a steaming pile of sewage which needs to be properly disposed of'
  • ElliotElliot Posts: 1,516
    You have to be a particular type of idiot to blame the media source when the raw footage is available for all to see.
  • ElliotElliot Posts: 1,516

    Elliot said:

    On Topic.

    So its now Anti Semitic to meet with Jewish Socialists to celebrate Passover.

    Jews who criticise Israel are Anti Semitic now are they.

    Just proves Socialism rather than Anti Semitism is the problem.

    As if we didn't already know that.

    This is the fourth time a Corbynista in this thread has pushed this stupid strawman argument. Is it being sent out in Momentum talking points?

    No, no-one says it is anti-Semitic to meet with Jewdas. It is, however, a clear signal that he's not serious about addressing the concerns of those worried about anti-Semitism.
    Maybe this is the argument Jeremy wanted to have?
    Every time I think I'm getting over it, the far left do something new to make me despair about how much these bastards have hijacked the great British Labour Party for the ends of their ugly cult.
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 59,540

    On Topic.

    So its now Anti Semitic to meet with Jewish Socialists to celebrate Passover.

    Jews who criticise Israel are Anti Semitic now are they.

    Just proves Socialism rather than Anti Semitism is the problem.

    As if we didn't already know that.

    No. Jews who claim allegations of anti-semitism in Labour are all a Tory plot designed to stop a socialist government are not, themselves, above criticism. Or do you think they are?
  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,074
    PeterC said:

    Roger said:

    JonWC said:

    daodao said:

    Cookie said:

    Ishmael_Z said:

    One of the rare insightful posts on this subject. I've come to the conclusion (belatedly) that this is a completely confected issue containing not a germ of truth and I say this as someone who is Jewish and not a fan of Corbyn. For this to have any credence whatsoever you would have to find someone from the Jewish community (a community that is growing by the minute!) who might take offence.

    I have yet to meet such a person other than those who are using it as a surrogate for their support of Israeli or their support of right wing causes (which Israel now is) Orr from the ultra orthodox community a totally segregated community who have no desire to integrate. In fact to do so is forbidden.

    Please could one of our gentile posters who is currently up in arms (cyclefree S.O.) and explain who is being offended and by what?
    I am a gentile poster and have not been especially up in arms, but I would have thought that many ordinary Jews might be offended by at least some of the following:

    https://blogs.spectator.co.uk/2018/03/labours-pockets-of-anti-semitism-the-evidence/
    My Jewish friends and friends of my daughter, one of whom works for a Labour MP, find this offensive and are deeply embarrassed by it. They thought Labour was their natural political home and now find themselves unwelcome. They worry about the prospect of a Corbyn government and feel that they may have to move to Israel to be safe even though pretty much all of them loathe the current Israeli government and some of them don’t much like Israel itself, while nonetheless wanting it to exist. Pretty much all are descended from Jews who had to flee another civilised European country where the small Jewish community was highly integrated. They are very sensitive to changes in mood. They have seen what is happening in France.

    I consider this an issue which shows someone’s moral character and judgment. Hanging out for decades with people who express one of the world’s oldest and most murderous hatreds without ever challenging this or fighting against it tells me something important about what sort of person you are. I could not in all conscience vote for such a person or a party led by such a person. I have voted Labour in the past when I was younger. My father was a Labour voter all his life. I grew up with an idea of Labour which was a world away from what it has become under Corbyn. It will not have me as a voter again until it turns its back on the Corbyn/Far Left viewpoint which is about as far away from decent old Labour as it’s possible to be.
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 37,603
    This rubbish is still going. When are the press and the Tories going to realise that Corbyn is Teflon. We won't defeat him this way.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 55,038
    Sean_F said:

    JWisemann said:

    Once again Jez has ridden out a smear storm and made it look ridiculous. Will his many enemies, driven demented by corbyn derangement syndrome, never learn?

    I don't think this has helped Corbyn at all. This issue won't turn millions of people away from Labour, but it helps to reinforce the view that May is the safer option.
    Particularly if Brexit is sorted by the time of the next election, and doesn't look that bad to millions of voters, with a few quick wins banked.

    May then looks very safe, and Corbyn very risky.
  • oxfordsimonoxfordsimon Posts: 5,831
    edited April 2018
    MaxPB said:

    This rubbish is still going. When are the press and the Tories going to realise that Corbyn is Teflon. We won't defeat him this way.

    I have seen very little official comment from Conservative Party sources on this. It is members of the Labour movement who are attacking Corbyn for this - over and over.

    I agree that this won't prove fatal for Corbyn - which is a damning indictment of the current Labour Party. It would have done for any other leader of any other party.

    This is not because Corbyn is right on this issue - it is because of the toxic thinking that surrounds him.

    Also it isn't rubbish. It is a serious issue that should have been dealt with a long time ago.
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 39,756
    TGOHF said:

    I may be excessively cynical, but I suspect that Seamus Milne has wmade the calculation that there are more votes to be won by attracting muslims than repelling jews. Corbyn may not be anti-semite, but is just following his master's voice.

    The real tragedy is this awful politics of identity - groups of voters being wooed as herds and voting as herds. Everyone should vote how they feel - not how their silly gang leader tells them to vote.
    Aye, down with that sort of thing.

    'Scotland's Orange Order Wants You to Vote No to Independence'

    https://tinyurl.com/y7lzcubx
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 39,756
    I see folk who hadn't heard of Jewdas 24hrs ago are now experts on them.
    Quick studies as the Yanks would say.
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 41,684
    JonWC said:

    daodao said:

    Cookie said:

    Ishmael_Z said:

    In addition to the picture Guido has 22:48 minutes of audio from the meeting, so a planned bit of espionage.

    Two possibilities: 1. Corbyn genuinely loathes Israel and is not prepared to disguise the fact because he is entirely uncompromising. 2. Someone has told him there are votes in anti-Zionism. Both terrifying.

    Many of the far left seem to be under the impression that the rest of the country hates the Jews as much as they do. Honestly, guys, we really don't. If there's one minority the country as a whole isn't even slightly sniffy about, it's the Jews.
    I challenge this perception. Jews are not the most disliked minority group in England, but probably second on the list, with Muslims first. Dietary laws, Sabbath restrictions and dislike of intermarriage stops many Jews (and similarly Muslims, who also won't drink alcohol) from fully integrating in the host community. Groups that keep themselves separate tend to be the most disliked - they are perceived as not "one of us".

    However, whenever Jews are in the news, whether it's the time of the year (e.g. Easter, Holocaust memorial day), less-than-decent behaviour by Israel, the misdemeanour of a Jewish entrepreneur, or bleating on about antisemitism, the level of dislike for Jews increases. At the moment, unfortunately, most of these issues are dominating the headlines. When they do, the number of antisemitic comments made unexpectedly by otherwise decent people increases; such views are usually sotto voce in England where expressing controversial views is "not the done thing" and no longer PC.

    I wish such issues were out of the headlines; it is better for Jews to be neither seen nor heard.
    I'd like to bet that the majority of people in provincial Britain (which is most of it) don't know anyone who is visibly Jewish, wouldn't know an anti-Semitic trope if it came up and bit them on the bum, and are thoroughly bemused by the whole issue which is one they didn't realise existed.
    I am one for sure, just seems like more of the "I want to be offended " garbage that seems to apply to every topic in the south east. Personally I have never had any opinion based on whether a person is Jewish , seems bizarre and whilst I am sure some Jews get abused , everybody does and I fail to see why they are special cases, ditto colour , etc. Abuse is abuse regardless of your colour or religion. This country is full of jessies and it is no wonder we are seen as third rate , just above banana republic status. Time to drop the "Great" and rename Little sad weak Britain.
  • MaxPB said:

    This rubbish is still going. When are the press and the Tories going to realise that Corbyn is Teflon. We won't defeat him this way.

    The press and broadcast media sense blood and are going on the story as one would expect

    No need for the conservatives to be involved, this is a civil war inside labour.

    It would be interesting to know how labour candidates are being received on the doorsteps for the local elections
  • TheWhiteRabbitTheWhiteRabbit Posts: 12,387

    TGOHF said:

    I may be excessively cynical, but I suspect that Seamus Milne has wmade the calculation that there are more votes to be won by attracting muslims than repelling jews. Corbyn may not be anti-semite, but is just following his master's voice.

    The real tragedy is this awful politics of identity - groups of voters being wooed as herds and voting as herds. Everyone should vote how they feel - not how their silly gang leader tells them to vote.
    Aye, down with that sort of thing.

    'Scotland's Orange Order Wants You to Vote No to Independence'

    https://tinyurl.com/y7lzcubx
    I'm not sure the Orange Order has too many fans on PB to be honest TUD
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 40,950

    MaxPB said:

    This rubbish is still going. When are the press and the Tories going to realise that Corbyn is Teflon. We won't defeat him this way.

    I have seen very little official comment from Conservative Party sources on this. It is members of the Labour movement who are attacking Corbyn for this - over and over.

    I agree that this won't prove fatal for Corbyn - which is a damning indictment of the current Labour Party. It would have done for any other leader of any other party.

    This is not because Corbyn is right on this issue - it is because of the toxic thinking that surrounds him.

    Also it isn't rubbish. It is a serious issue that should have been dealt with a long time ago.
    It is surely only a matter of time before Tom Watson points out to Labour what some people call them.
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 39,756
    SeanT said:

    Elliot said:

    Elliot said:

    On Topic.

    So its now Anti Semitic to meet with Jewish Socialists to celebrate Passover.

    Jews who criticise Israel are Anti Semitic now are they.

    Just proves Socialism rather than Anti Semitism is the problem.

    As if we didn't already know that.

    This is the fourth time a Corbynista in this thread has pushed this stupid strawman argument. Is it being sent out in Momentum talking points?

    No, no-one says it is anti-Semitic to meet with Jewdas. It is, however, a clear signal that he's not serious about addressing the concerns of those worried about anti-Semitism.
    Maybe this is the argument Jeremy wanted to have?
    Every time I think I'm getting over it, the far left do something new to make me despair about how much these bastards have hijacked the great British Labour Party for the ends of their ugly cult.
    Yes, that's the problem. I agree (amazingly) with Roger that perceived mild anti-Semitism per se won't swing many votes. A lot of Brits on left and right - if they care at all - find Israel's behaviour quite repugnant. They have yet to notice that outright anti-Semitism. i.e. hatred of Jews not just dislike of Netanyahu's government (cf the appalling recent murders in France) IS becoming a serious problem.

    Eventually the Brits will maybe notice and then this could be a very damaging issue for Labour. Especially if Labour are consequently seen as siding with radical Islam which is VERY unpopular in the UK.

    For now, the more pressing problem is the idea that Labour has been taken over by cranks, weirdos, obsessives and demented old fools (not least, one Jeremy Corbyn). It's the image of chaos, freakishness and eccentricity which is more damaging to the party. They all look a bit mad. Not least cause thousands of them are. Sure, the party has a huge membership, but half of them are borderline schizo and announce it loudly on Twitter. Not great.

    By contrast the boring, autistic Theresa May looks, at least, semi competent and moderately sane, likewise her party. Hence perhaps the recent boost in Tory polling, and the fall in support for Corbyn.

    Labour with a decent leader should and would be 10-20 points ahead. JCWNBPM.
    Just as the Cons with a decent leader should and would be 10-20 points ahead. We're stuck in shitty aspic for the foreseeable future.
  • bigjohnowlsbigjohnowls Posts: 21,725
    Roger said:

    Sean_F said:

    JWisemann said:

    Once again Jez has ridden out a smear storm and made it look ridiculous. Will his many enemies, driven demented by corbyn derangement syndrome, never learn?

    On balance I think it's harmed him. Not because of any anti-Semitism issue which few care about and even less believe but what it tells us about his leadership. No one wants to have a PM so feeble that he's prepared to sell his party and his followers down the river to appease right wingers with an agenda. They are seeing a leader who is prepared to call his own party racists for electoral advantage
    I can tell you from early canvassing the impact is only marginal IMO Nevertheless it is far from helpful if you are wanting to talk about the Council or other policies with those you are contacting.

    Most of the views proffered my way on the doorstep are "what do you expect of the Right Wing Papers" but it is also being brought up frequently as a concern about "internal party bickering rather than attacking the Tories".

    Of course I have also heard other more distasteful Antisemitic views where people claim they are "more likely to vote Labour because (insert Anti Semitic comment here)" Fortunately very rare

    I think it will have some (marginal) negative impact on Labour Council Seat gains unless the narrative moves on quick.

    Its not exactly Granny Tax but at the margins it is damaging.
  • TheWhiteRabbitTheWhiteRabbit Posts: 12,387
    MaxPB said:

    This rubbish is still going. When are the press and the Tories going to realise that Corbyn is Teflon. We won't defeat him this way.

    But it can be bogged down for a while.

    We need another year of Labour in trouble, the withdrawal bill in place, and then the Tories can think of their next elections strategy (and their leader)
  • I have run out of popcorn. I have overdosed on popcorn. Can the surrealistic madness of this last week keep going for another week?

    Jezbollah should understand that although Jewdas are his friends, and that they are absolutely authentically Jewish, they are not exactly representative of the wider Jewish community who amazingly enough think this is another piss take.

    Jeremy had two options yesterday. Put out a tasteful well crafted Passover statement and go to bed, or think "shits and giggs baby" and give the story another few days of legs.

    I blame Milne. Shit amateur hour media management? That'll be the Milne.

    Sweet and Salted popcorn please. Quickly...
  • AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 29,395
    OxfordSimon is right, 90% of the criticism of Corbyn right now is coming from Labour moderates. The Tories haven't said much about it; they've probably decided it's best not to interfere.
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 59,540
    Rightwing scum:

    The Jewdas Seder shows Corbyn’s relationship with Jewish leaders is fractured beyond repair
    By spending Passover with leftwing anti-Zionists, Jeremy Corbyn is staying in his comfort zone – and that’s the problem.


    ....Many Jewish organisations and Jewish Labour members feel that Corbyn's decision to attend the Seder is a sign he doesn't take their complaints seriously. And members of Jewdas understandably feel offended at suggestions in the press that they are not “proper” Jews.


    https://www.newstatesman.com/politics/staggers/2018/04/jewdas-seder-shows-corbyn-s-relationship-jewish-leaders-fractured-beyond
  • currystarcurrystar Posts: 1,171
    What is happening in Khan's London with all these murders? He seems to get away with being challanged on this.
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 41,684
    Jonathan said:

    Off topic.

    I love the Easter break. And yet it's too short to be genuinely relaxing, but just long enough to get your head out of work so it's jarring to return. Sigh

    take extra days, it is great.
  • AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 29,395
    edited April 2018
    currystar said:

    What is happening in Khan's London with all these murders? He seems to get away with being challanged on this.

    In the first three months of last year there were 21 homicides in London, this year there have been 43.
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 39,756

    TGOHF said:

    I may be excessively cynical, but I suspect that Seamus Milne has wmade the calculation that there are more votes to be won by attracting muslims than repelling jews. Corbyn may not be anti-semite, but is just following his master's voice.

    The real tragedy is this awful politics of identity - groups of voters being wooed as herds and voting as herds. Everyone should vote how they feel - not how their silly gang leader tells them to vote.
    Aye, down with that sort of thing.

    'Scotland's Orange Order Wants You to Vote No to Independence'

    https://tinyurl.com/y7lzcubx
    I'm not sure the Orange Order has too many fans on PB to be honest TUD
    Which was why I responded to one of them when he started bleating about identity politics.
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 41,684

    TGOHF said:

    I may be excessively cynical, but I suspect that Seamus Milne has wmade the calculation that there are more votes to be won by attracting muslims than repelling jews. Corbyn may not be anti-semite, but is just following his master's voice.

    The real tragedy is this awful politics of identity - groups of voters being wooed as herds and voting as herds. Everyone should vote how they feel - not how their silly gang leader tells them to vote.
    Aye, down with that sort of thing.

    'Scotland's Orange Order Wants You to Vote No to Independence'

    https://tinyurl.com/y7lzcubx
    I'm not sure the Orange Order has too many fans on PB to be honest TUD
    Tory MP's and MSP's in Scotland love them.
  • Roger said:

    Sean_F said:

    JWisemann said:

    Once again Jez has ridden out a smear storm and made it look ridiculous. Will his many enemies, driven demented by corbyn derangement syndrome, never learn?

    On balance I think it's harmed him. Not because of any anti-Semitism issue which few care about and even less believe but what it tells us about his leadership. No one wants to have a PM so feeble that he's prepared to sell his party and his followers down the river to appease right wingers with an agenda. They are seeing a leader who is prepared to call his own party racists for electoral advantage
    I can tell you from early canvassing the impact is only marginal IMO Nevertheless it is far from helpful if you are wanting to talk about the Council or other policies with those you are contacting.

    Most of the views proffered my way on the doorstep are "what do you expect of the Right Wing Papers" but it is also being brought up frequently as a concern about "internal party bickering rather than attacking the Tories".

    Of course I have also heard other more distasteful Antisemitic views where people claim they are "more likely to vote Labour because (insert Anti Semitic comment here)" Fortunately very rare

    I think it will have some (marginal) negative impact on Labour Council Seat gains unless the narrative moves on quick.

    Its not exactly Granny Tax but at the margins it is damaging.
    Fair comment BJO
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 66,769
    South Africa comprehensively bury Australia at the Wanderers.

    In typical Morkel fashion, he bowled the last ball but the wicket was a run out.
  • AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 30,340
    SeanT said:

    SeanT said:



    Yes, that's the problem. I agree (amazingly) with Roger that perceived mild anti-Semitism per se won't swing many votes. A lot of Brits on left and right - if they care at all - find Israel's behaviour quite repugnant. They have yet to notice that outright anti-Semitism. i.e. hatred of Jews not just dislike of Netanyahu's government (cf the appalling recent murders in France) IS becoming a serious problem.

    Eventually the Brits will maybe notice and then this could be a very damaging issue for Labour. Especially if Labour are consequently seen as siding with radical Islam which is VERY unpopular in the UK.

    For now, the more pressing problem is the idea that Labour has been taken over by cranks, weirdos, obsessives and demented old fools (not least, one Jeremy Corbyn). It's the image of chaos, freakishness and eccentricity which is more damaging to the party. They all look a bit mad. Not least cause thousands of them are. Sure, the party has a huge membership, but half of them are borderline schizo and announce it loudly on Twitter. Not great.

    By contrast the boring, autistic Theresa May looks, at least, semi competent and moderately sane, likewise her party. Hence perhaps the recent boost in Tory polling, and the fall in support for Corbyn.

    Labour with a decent leader should and would be 10-20 points ahead. JCWNBPM.

    Just as the Cons with a decent leader should and would be 10-20 points ahead. We're stuck in shitty aspic for the foreseeable future.
    A fair point. Nonetheless if an election were held now I think the Tories would win a slim OVERALL majority, and unless Corbyn goes I don't see that changing, indeed I think the prospective Tory majority gets a little bigger as the months pass, and he stays.
    What is the Conservative offer to the country going to be at the next election? 2017 showed that Brexit isn't going to be enough and so far that's all the current government has been able to articulate.

    I expect I could sketch out Labour's 2022 manifesto now in broad terms and it will be popular.
  • JWisemannJWisemann Posts: 1,082
    SeanT said:

    Elliot said:

    Elliot said:

    On Topic.

    So its now Anti Semitic to meet with Jewish Socialists to celebrate Passover.

    Jews who criticise Israel are Anti Semitic now are they.

    Just proves Socialism rather than Anti Semitism is the problem.

    As if we didn't already know that.

    This is the fourth time a Corbynista in this thread has pushed this stupid strawman argument. Is it being sent out in Momentum talking points?

    No, no-one says it is anti-Semitic to meet with Jewdas. It is, however, a clear signal that he's not serious about addressing the concerns of those worried about anti-Semitism.
    Maybe this is the argument Jeremy wanted to have?
    Every time I think I'm getting over it, the far left do something new to make me despair about how much these bastards have hijacked the great British Labour Party for the ends of their ugly cult.
    Yes, that's the problem. I agree (amazingly) with Roger that perceived mild anti-Semitism per se won't swing many votes. A lot of Brits on left and right - if they care at all - find Israel's behaviour quite repugnant. They have yet to notice that outright anti-Semitism. i.e. hatred of Jews not just dislike of Netanyahu's government (cf the appalling recent murders in France) IS becoming a serious problem.

    Eventually the Brits will maybe notice and then this could be a very damaging issue for Labour. Especially if Labour are consequently seen as siding with radical Islam which is VERY unpopular in the UK.

    For now, the more pressing problem is the idea that Labour has been taken over by cranks, weirdos, obsessives and demented old fools (not least, one Jeremy Corbyn). It's the image of chaos, freakishness and eccentricity which is more damaging to the party. They all look a bit mad. Not least cause thousands of them are. Sure, the party has a huge membership, but half of them are borderline schizo and announce it loudly on Twitter. Not great.

    By contrast the boring, autistic Theresa May looks, at least, semi competent and moderately sane, likewise her party. Hence perhaps the recent boost in Tory polling, and the fall in support for Corbyn.

    Labour with a decent leader should and would be 10-20 points ahead. JCWNBPM.
    Only party in hock to radical Islam is the Tories, historical sponsors of jihadis across Eurasia and Africa and perpetually in hock to the source of 99% of global fundamentalist Islam and terrorism, the headchopping totalitarians in Riyadh. The only party with an officially anti-global-Wahabi-jihad policy is Labour.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 66,769
    SeanT said:

    A fair point. Nonetheless if an election were held now I think the Tories would win a slim OVERALL majority, and unless Corbyn goes I don't see that changing, indeed I think the prospective Tory majority gets a little bigger as the months pass, and he stays.

    Please don't tell May that! Without getting all Brenda from Bristol about politics, I don't think I could stand it five years running...
  • bigjohnowlsbigjohnowls Posts: 21,725

    On Topic.

    So its now Anti Semitic to meet with Jewish Socialists to celebrate Passover.

    Jews who criticise Israel are Anti Semitic now are they.

    Just proves Socialism rather than Anti Semitism is the problem.

    As if we didn't already know that.

    No. Jews who claim allegations of anti-semitism in Labour are all a Tory plot designed to stop a socialist government are not, themselves, above criticism. Or do you think they are?
    I think Jewish people are allowed to criticise Israeli Governments.

    I think a claim that Jezza celebrating Passover with a Socialist Jewish group is proof of a continuing Anti Semitism problem is revealing of some of his critics motives

    I think Israel would not welcome a Jezza PM as he will speak out against the excesses of Israeli policy unlike any PM before.

    More than that ie Tory plot would seem a bit far fetched
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 49,963

    I have run out of popcorn. I have overdosed on popcorn. Can the surrealistic madness of this last week keep going for another week?

    Jezbollah should understand that although Jewdas are his friends, and that they are absolutely authentically Jewish, they are not exactly representative of the wider Jewish community who amazingly enough think this is another piss take.

    Jeremy had two options yesterday. Put out a tasteful well crafted Passover statement and go to bed, or think "shits and giggs baby" and give the story another few days of legs.

    I blame Milne. Shit amateur hour media management? That'll be the Milne.

    Sweet and Salted popcorn please. Quickly...

    Question: as someone on the inside of Labour, could this

    a) hurt Corbyn to the point where his exit is hastened without a say in his successor or

    b) hurt Corbyn to the point where his exit is hastened so long as he can annoint his successor or

    c) the guy is even more Teflon than Teflon Tony - nothing will change?
  • ElliotElliot Posts: 1,516
    JWisemann said:

    SeanT said:

    Elliot said:

    Elliot said:

    On Topic.

    So its now Anti Semitic to meet with Jewish Socialists to celebrate Passover.

    Jews who criticise Israel are Anti Semitic now are they.

    Just proves Socialism rather than Anti Semitism is the problem.

    As if we didn't already know that.

    This is the fourth time a Corbynista in this thread has pushed this stupid strawman argument. Is it being sent out in Momentum talking points?

    No, no-one says it is anti-Semitic to meet with Jewdas. It is, however, a clear signal that he's not serious about addressing the concerns of those worried about anti-Semitism.
    Maybe this is the argument Jeremy wanted to have?
    Every time I think I'm getting over it, the far left do something new to make me despair about how much these bastards have hijacked the great British Labour Party for the ends of their ugly cult.
    Yes, that's the problem. I agree (amazingly) with Roger that perceived mild anti-Semitism per se won't swing many votes. A lot of Brits on left and right - if they care at all - find Israel's behaviour quite repugnant. They have yet to notice that outright anti-Semitism. i.e. hatred of Jews not just dislike of Netanyahu's government (cf the appalling recent murders in France) IS becoming a serious problem.

    Eventually the Brits will maybe notice and then this could be a very damaging issue for Labour. Especially if Labour are consequently seen as siding with radical Islam which is VERY unpopular in the UK.

    For now, the more pressing problem is the idea that Labour has been taken over by cranks, weirdos, obsessives and demented old fools (not least, one Jeremy Corbyn). It's the image of chaos, freakishness and eccentricity which is more damaging to the party. They all look a bit mad. Not least cause thousands of them are. Sure, the party has a huge membership, but half of them are borderline schizo and announce it loudly on Twitter. Not great.

    By contrast the boring, autistic Theresa May looks, at least, semi competent and moderately sane, likewise her party. Hence perhaps the recent boost in Tory polling, and the fall in support for Corbyn.

    Labour with a decent leader should and would be 10-20 points ahead. JCWNBPM.
    Only party in hock to radical Islam is the Tories, historical sponsors of jihadis across Eurasia and Africa and perpetually in hock to the source of 99% of global fundamentalist Islam and terrorism, the headchopping totalitarians in Riyadh. The only party with an officially anti-global-Wahabi-jihad policy is Labour.
    Tell that to Corbyn's friends in Hamas and Hezbollah. Or his allies like Raed Salah.
  • Y0kelY0kel Posts: 2,307
    I kind of get why some would back a party leader because they are a winner but whats the deal with Corbyn? He lost the election last year, and wasn't realistically going to ever form up a government. Despite the attempt to rewrite failure as victory by those who cannot count, thats fact, he lost.

    Has it ever occurred that one of the reasons for this is that he as an individual is just too divisive and is therefore unlikely to be able to command enough votes in the country to get a majority?

  • oxfordsimonoxfordsimon Posts: 5,831

    On Topic.

    So its now Anti Semitic to meet with Jewish Socialists to celebrate Passover.

    Jews who criticise Israel are Anti Semitic now are they.

    Just proves Socialism rather than Anti Semitism is the problem.

    As if we didn't already know that.

    No. Jews who claim allegations of anti-semitism in Labour are all a Tory plot designed to stop a socialist government are not, themselves, above criticism. Or do you think they are?
    I think Jewish people are allowed to criticise Israeli Governments.

    I think a claim that Jezza celebrating Passover with a Socialist Jewish group is proof of a continuing Anti Semitism problem is revealing of some of his critics motives

    I think Israel would not welcome a Jezza PM as he will speak out against the excesses of Israeli policy unlike any PM before.

    More than that ie Tory plot would seem a bit far fetched
    His decision to attend that event is not proof of antisemitism per se. However by attending, he has ensured that the media are able to carry on with the story for more news cycles.

    The issue has always been about the handling of antisemitism, about political leadership, about setting a tone.

    By attending that particular event, Corbyn has sent a very clear message that has rightly been read by many as not helpful until the current circumstances.
  • ElliotElliot Posts: 1,516

    On Topic.

    So its now Anti Semitic to meet with Jewish Socialists to celebrate Passover.

    Jews who criticise Israel are Anti Semitic now are they.

    Just proves Socialism rather than Anti Semitism is the problem.

    As if we didn't already know that.

    No. Jews who claim allegations of anti-semitism in Labour are all a Tory plot designed to stop a socialist government are not, themselves, above criticism. Or do you think they are?
    I think Jewish people are allowed to criticise Israeli Governments.

    I think a claim that Jezza celebrating Passover with a Socialist Jewish group is proof of a continuing Anti Semitism problem is revealing of some of his critics motives
    The fact you continue to push the same line even after three people responded to what a strawman it is in the last hour shows how unable you are to engage. This is what we would have with a Corbyn government. Braindead talking points, no engagement with critics and rampant whataboutism.

    As others have said, this is left wing Trumpist cultism.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 50,780
    edited April 2018
    SeanT said:

    Elliot said:

    Elliot said:

    On Topic.

    So its now Anti Semitic to meet with Jewish Socialists to celebrate Passover.

    Jews who criticise Israel are Anti Semitic now are they.

    Just proves Socialism rather than Anti Semitism is the problem.

    As if we didn't already know that.

    This is the fourth time a Corbynista in this thread has pushed this stupid strawman argument. Is it being sent out in Momentum talking points?

    No, no-one says it is anti-Semitic to meet with Jewdas. It is, however, a clear signal that he's not serious about addressing the concerns of those worried about anti-Semitism.
    Maybe this is the argument Jeremy wanted to have?
    Every time I think I'm getting over it, the far left do something new to make me despair about how much these bastards have hijacked the great British Labour Party for the ends of their ugly cult.
    Yes, that's the problem. I agree (amazingly) with Roger that perceived mild anti-Semitism per se won't swing many votes. A lot of Brits on left and right - if they care at all - find Israel's behaviour quite repugnant. They have yet to notice that outright anti-Semitism. i.e. hatred of Jews not just dislike of Netanyahu's government (cf the appalling recent murders in France) IS becoming a serious problem.

    Eventually the Brits will maybe notice and then this could be a very damaging issue for Labour. Especially if Labour are consequently seen as siding with radical Islam which is VERY unpopular in the UK.

    For now, the more pressing problem is the idea that Labour has been taken over by cranks, weirdos, obsessives and demented old fools (not least, one Jeremy Corbyn). It's the image of chaos, freakishness and eccentricity which is more damaging to the party. They all look a bit mad. Not least cause thousands of them are. Sure, the party has a huge membership, but half of them are borderline schizo and announce it loudly on Twitter. Not great.

    By contrast the boring, autistic Theresa May looks, at least, semi competent and moderately sane, likewise her party. Hence perhaps the recent boost in Tory polling, and the fall in support for Corbyn.

    Labour with a decent leader should and would be 10-20 points ahead. JCWNBPM.
    I think this highlights the real political issue here. Labour, like the Dems in the US, is already widely perceived as the party of minorities looking for special favours. Their willingness to indulge and turn a blind eye to some practices in the sub-continent community in particular is becoming a weak spot and their willingness to indulge anti-Semitism feeds that trope. What would Corbyn not do for his Hamas friends? Where does he draw the line?
  • AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 29,395
    edited April 2018
    I think we're heading for the formation of a new centrist party because there are enough people who despise both the Tories and Labour but who don't seem to find the LDs an attractive option for whatever reasons.
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 41,684
    AndyJS said:

    I think we're heading for the formation of a new centrist party because there are enough people who despise both the Tories and Labour but who don't seem to find the LDs an attractive option for whatever reasons.

    How could anyone find the perfidious LD's an attractive option.
  • DecrepitJohnLDecrepitJohnL Posts: 13,300
    SeanT said:

    AndyJS said:

    currystar said:

    What is happening in Khan's London with all these murders? He seems to get away with being challanged on this.

    In the first three months of last year there were 21 homicides in London, this year there have been 43.
    Khan's continued popularity, in the face of this horrible surge in violence (and it's not just the murders, it's the acid attacks, burglaries etc) is astonishing. I think, electorally, he's a cartoon character who has run off a cliff. If this surge doesn't cease, eventually he will look down and whoooooosh.
    Maybe, maybe not. We will know Khan is in trouble if he tries to blame Tory police cuts: remember Corbyn silencing the PM (and former axe-wielding Home Secretary) over that. In fact, I'd not be surprised to see a joint mayor/government initiative simply because there is so much blame to go round.
  • The_ApocalypseThe_Apocalypse Posts: 7,830

    David Baddiel has also come out against Guido’s line - he recently wrote a great pieces in the Times about the issue of antisemitism:
    https://twitter.com/baddiel/status/980942124362366977
    This kind of stuff simply feeds into the beliefs many Corbyn supporters have that this about ‘attacking’ Corbyn, it actually makes it harder to deal with antisemitism.

    No, it really doesn't. Dealing with antisemitism is easy: if someone expresses antisemitic views, suspend them or throw them out, depending on the level of the offence.

    It's quite simple. You have a fair process in place, and apply that process fairly. You do not prejudge or ignore.

    That's what Labour's got wrong under Corbyn, and that's why they're getting pasted.

    (BTW, the same goes for other things such as Islamophobia or general racism as well, and applies to all parties and, for that matter, organisations).
    In the case of Labour it does make it harder to deal with the issue at hand. The more Corbyn supporters think that this about an attack on Corbyn, the less likely the issue is going to be taken seriously and dealt with. In order for Labour to kick their antisemities out, the issue needs to be taken seriously in the first place.
    But that's exactly the point! It wasn't being taken seriously.

    Or worse, it was being judged through a political prism: if a Conservative or moderate Labour figure said it, it would be wrong. If a hard leftist says it, it's obviously fine and just a plot by other members against him.

    Corbyn is being attacked because he, and his followers in the party, are doing wrong.
    snip
    That many of his supporters are either racist or quite happy to put up with racists so long as they agree with him is the issue.

    Its 2018, we shouldn't need to convince people to take antisemitism or any other form of racism seriously.
    Well the reality is we do need to convince people to take racism seriously. As FF43 said yesterday:
    FF43 said:

    For their part a lot of critics of Corbyn and Labour, including many on this board focus on anti-Semitism as an evil while being perfectly comfortable with other forms of casual racism.

    http://politicalbetting.vanillaforums.com/discussion/comment/1885664#Comment_1885664

    So it’s not only the craziest Corbynistas who we have to convince to take racism seriously. It’s a wider issue than that.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 40,950
    edited April 2018

    I have run out of popcorn. I have overdosed on popcorn. Can the surrealistic madness of this last week keep going for another week?

    Jezbollah should understand that although Jewdas are his friends, and that they are absolutely authentically Jewish, they are not exactly representative of the wider Jewish community who amazingly enough think this is another piss take.

    Jeremy had two options yesterday. Put out a tasteful well crafted Passover statement and go to bed, or think "shits and giggs baby" and give the story another few days of legs.

    I blame Milne. Shit amateur hour media management? That'll be the Milne.

    Sweet and Salted popcorn please. Quickly...

    As ever, summed up to perfection.

    But can it really be that hard for the others (talking to you @TheJezziah) to see what seems to be so transparently obvious?

    Edit: where I do disagree, however, is that this is an error by Milne - he knows exactly what he is doing.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 40,950
    By the way, have the clocks gone forward 12 hours?

    Why is @SeanT posting comments at this hour?
  • ElliotElliot Posts: 1,516
    edited April 2018
    SeanT said:

    SeanT said:

    SeanT said:



    Yes, that's the problem. I agree (amazingly) with Roger that perceived mild anti-Semitism per se won't swing many votes. A lot of Brits on left and right - if they care at all - find Israel's behaviour quite repugnant. They have yet to notice that outright anti-Semitism. i.e. hatred of Jews not just dislike of Netanyahu's government (cf the appalling recent murders in France) IS becoming a serious problem.

    For now, the more pressing problem is the idea that Labour has been taken over by cranks, weirdos, obsessives and demented old fools (not least, one Jeremy Corbyn). It's the image of chaos, freakishness and eccentricity which is more damaging to the party. They all look a bit mad. Not least cause thousands of them are. Sure, the party has a huge membership, but half of them are borderline schizo and announce it loudly on Twitter. Not great.

    By contrast the boring, autistic Theresa May looks, at least, semi competent and moderately sane, likewise her party. Hence perhaps the recent boost in Tory polling, and the fall in support for Corbyn.

    Labour with a decent leader should and would be 10-20 points ahead. JCWNBPM.

    Just as the Cons with a decent leader should and would be 10-20 points ahead. We're stuck in shitty aspic for the foreseeable future.
    A fair point. Nonetheless if an election were held now I think the Tories would win a slim OVERALL majority, and unless Corbyn goes I don't see that changing, indeed I think the prospective Tory majority gets a little bigger as the months pass, and he stays.
    What is the Conservative offer to the country going to be at the next election? 2017 showed that Brexit isn't going to be enough and so far that's all the current government has been able to articulate.

    I expect I could sketch out Labour's 2022 manifesto now in broad terms and it will be popular.
    2022 will be long after official Brexit. By then the Tories will have adopted some policies, one presumes. My guess is it will be watery centrism, wrapped in patriotism. It will be enough to win, IF Labour are still led by Corbyn (or someone as sinister or worse, like McDonnell).

    If Labour sensibly depose Corbyn and get a decent leader, and rid themselves of the loons, then all bets are off. The Tories could easily lose.
    The Tories need a Blue Labour manifesto. Support for the aspiring working class, economic stability, controlled immigration. Corbyn is particularly exposed on the last two.

    If the leader was a regular-seeming professional or ex-soldier, that would help.
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 59,540

    On Topic.

    So its now Anti Semitic to meet with Jewish Socialists to celebrate Passover.

    Jews who criticise Israel are Anti Semitic now are they.

    Just proves Socialism rather than Anti Semitism is the problem.

    As if we didn't already know that.

    No. Jews who claim allegations of anti-semitism in Labour are all a Tory plot designed to stop a socialist government are not, themselves, above criticism. Or do you think they are?
    More than that ie Tory plot would seem a bit far fetched
    So you can see how dining with people who have claimed that it is a Tory plot might raise questions in some people's minds over his sincerity in saying Labour has a problem?
  • AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 30,340
    SeanT said:

    SeanT said:



    Just as the Cons with a decent leader should and would be 10-20 points ahead. We're stuck in shitty aspic for the foreseeable future.

    A fair point. Nonetheless if an election were held now I think the Tories would win a slim OVERALL majority, and unless Corbyn goes I don't see that changing, indeed I think the prospective Tory majority gets a little bigger as the months pass, and he stays.
    What is the Conservative offer to the country going to be at the next election? 2017 showed that Brexit isn't going to be enough and so far that's all the current government has been able to articulate.

    I expect I could sketch out Labour's 2022 manifesto now in broad terms and it will be popular.
    2022 will be long after official Brexit. By then the Tories will have adopted some policies, one presumes. My guess is it will be watery centrism, wrapped in patriotism. It will be enough to win, IF Labour are still led by Corbyn (or someone as sinister or worse, like McDonnell).

    If Labour sensibly depose Corbyn and get a decent leader, and rid themselves of the loons, then all bets are off. The Tories could easily lose.
    Brexit will still be very live at the next election. I'm not sure the Conservatives are capable of adopting policies. They've trashed all their principles in pursuit of Brexit and don't look able to rebuild anything from the rubble in the time available.
  • currystarcurrystar Posts: 1,171
    AndyJS said:
    It staggers me that Khan isn't even asked for a comment yet alone asked what he is doing about this dramatic rise in violence. If Boris was still Mayor he would be getting loads of stick
  • I have run out of popcorn. I have overdosed on popcorn. Can the surrealistic madness of this last week keep going for another week?

    Jezbollah should understand that although Jewdas are his friends, and that they are absolutely authentically Jewish, they are not exactly representative of the wider Jewish community who amazingly enough think this is another piss take.

    Jeremy had two options yesterday. Put out a tasteful well crafted Passover statement and go to bed, or think "shits and giggs baby" and give the story another few days of legs.

    I blame Milne. Shit amateur hour media management? That'll be the Milne.

    Sweet and Salted popcorn please. Quickly...

    Question: as someone on the inside of Labour, could this

    a) hurt Corbyn to the point where his exit is hastened without a say in his successor or

    b) hurt Corbyn to the point where his exit is hastened so long as he can annoint his successor or

    c) the guy is even more Teflon than Teflon Tony - nothing will change?
    Won't be a) as the leader is elected and the membership are cult worshippers
    Could be b) with McDonnell the obvious person to whisper the "we need to preserve all the good you have done" speech that has him step down
    Probably be c) where when we lose it'll be the fault of Moderates Blairites Chicken Coupers Labour MPs Councillors officials and the pre-2015 membership the biased BBC Murdoch and the Lame Stream Media the Jewish Labour Movement Progress Portland Communications voters and the Fabians
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 40,950

    SeanT said:

    SeanT said:



    Just as the Cons with a decent leader should and would be 10-20 points ahead. We're stuck in shitty aspic for the foreseeable future.

    A fair point. Nonetheless if an election were held now I think the Tories would win a slim OVERALL majority, and unless Corbyn goes I don't see that changing, indeed I think the prospective Tory majority gets a little bigger as the months pass, and he stays.
    What is the Conservative offer to the country going to be at the next election? 2017 showed that Brexit isn't going to be enough and so far that's all the current government has been able to articulate.

    I expect I could sketch out Labour's 2022 manifesto now in broad terms and it will be popular.
    2022 will be long after official Brexit. By then the Tories will have adopted some policies, one presumes. My guess is it will be watery centrism, wrapped in patriotism. It will be enough to win, IF Labour are still led by Corbyn (or someone as sinister or worse, like McDonnell).

    If Labour sensibly depose Corbyn and get a decent leader, and rid themselves of the loons, then all bets are off. The Tories could easily lose.
    Brexit will still be very live at the next election. I'm not sure the Conservatives are capable of adopting policies. They've trashed all their principles in pursuit of Brexit and don't look able to rebuild anything from the rubble in the time available.
    I don't think the public will have been following that closely. Cons will try to regain the mantle of guardians of the economy and may very well succeed in so doing.

    Corbyn? Well he wants to remain in the press by hook (nose) or by crook. And in this he is succeeding - nothing worse for his legion of social media-savvy fans than not being all over social media.
  • AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 29,395
    edited April 2018
    Cressida Dick has blamed social media for the crime spike in London. Don't people use social media in New York? Not the best of explanations IMO.
  • David_EvershedDavid_Evershed Posts: 6,506
    malcolmg said:

    AndyJS said:

    I think we're heading for the formation of a new centrist party because there are enough people who despise both the Tories and Labour but who don't seem to find the LDs an attractive option for whatever reasons.

    How could anyone find the perfidious LD's an attractive option.
    What are the LDs unfaithful to?
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 50,780
    AndyJS said:

    Cressida Dick has blamed social media for the crime spike in London. Don't people use social media in New York? Not the best of explanations IMO.

    She is starting to seem particularly well named.
  • ElliotElliot Posts: 1,516

    SeanT said:

    AndyJS said:

    currystar said:

    What is happening in Khan's London with all these murders? He seems to get away with being challanged on this.

    In the first three months of last year there were 21 homicides in London, this year there have been 43.
    Khan's continued popularity, in the face of this horrible surge in violence (and it's not just the murders, it's the acid attacks, burglaries etc) is astonishing. I think, electorally, he's a cartoon character who has run off a cliff. If this surge doesn't cease, eventually he will look down and whoooooosh.
    Maybe, maybe not. We will know Khan is in trouble if he tries to blame Tory police cuts: remember Corbyn silencing the PM (and former axe-wielding Home Secretary) over that. In fact, I'd not be surprised to see a joint mayor/government initiative simply because there is so much blame to go round.
    I like Sadiq but he needs to be careful to focus on policing, given some of his reforms. Banning recruits from the home counties, reducing stop and search, allowing people with criminal records to apply etc. He would do better to focus on the social causes of crime and argue for a cooperative, bipartisan approach to solving the problem.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 49,963

    I have run out of popcorn. I have overdosed on popcorn. Can the surrealistic madness of this last week keep going for another week?

    Jezbollah should understand that although Jewdas are his friends, and that they are absolutely authentically Jewish, they are not exactly representative of the wider Jewish community who amazingly enough think this is another piss take.

    Jeremy had two options yesterday. Put out a tasteful well crafted Passover statement and go to bed, or think "shits and giggs baby" and give the story another few days of legs.

    I blame Milne. Shit amateur hour media management? That'll be the Milne.

    Sweet and Salted popcorn please. Quickly...

    Question: as someone on the inside of Labour, could this

    a) hurt Corbyn to the point where his exit is hastened without a say in his successor or

    b) hurt Corbyn to the point where his exit is hastened so long as he can annoint his successor or

    c) the guy is even more Teflon than Teflon Tony - nothing will change?
    Won't be a) as the leader is elected and the membership are cult worshippers
    Could be b) with McDonnell the obvious person to whisper the "we need to preserve all the good you have done" speech that has him step down
    Probably be c) where when we lose it'll be the fault of Moderates Blairites Chicken Coupers Labour MPs Councillors officials and the pre-2015 membership the biased BBC Murdoch and the Lame Stream Media the Jewish Labour Movement Progress Portland Communications voters and the Fabians
    Ta. Kinda assumed that looking in from the outside, but it is good to have the take of someone with the inside track. What a f*cking mess.

    Careful you don't get popcorn poisoning.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 40,950
    SeanT said:

    TOPPING said:

    By the way, have the clocks gone forward 12 hours?

    Why is @SeanT posting comments at this hour?

    It's Easter hols and I am taking my eldest daughter down to Devon to see her best friend. We're staying at Boringdon Hall which I thoroughly recommend. Nice restaurant, amazing spa, beautiful echt Elizabethan interior, ghosts.

    https://www.boringdonhall.co.uk/
    Looks very nice. Just you, your daughter, and PB.
  • ElliotElliot Posts: 1,516
    AndyJS said:

    Cressida Dick has blamed social media for the crime spike in London. Don't people use social media in New York? Not the best of explanations IMO.

    New York also has immigration.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 75,842
    Scott_P said:
    Barnsley Central where Labour are priced 1-20 and should probably be 1-200 was never going to be a thriller though.
  • 148grss148grss Posts: 3,630
    https://antisemitism.uk/wp-content/uploads/2017/08/Antisemitism-Barometer-2017.pdf

    This suggests that antisemitism is an issue for all Britons, but is more prevalent in right wing parties (Con and UKIP), and amongst Leavers, the old and men. The young, women, remainers and centre / left parties (Lib Dems / Labour) are much less likely to say or believe anti semitic things.

    It does also state that many Jews do point the blame at Labour, though. The paper claims "Labour Party supporters are less likely to be antisemitic than other voters, so the cause of British Jews’ discontentment with the Labour Party must be the way that it has very publicly failed to robustly deal with the antisemites in its ranks. This means that the Labour Party has fallen out of step with its core supporters, who are generally less likely to hold antisemitic beliefs"

    They do not go on to prove this hypothesis; that Jewish feelings that Labour is more antisemitic is due to their not dealing with Labour antisemites as well as other parties. Jewdas' hypothesis, as mentioned below in the thread, is that the Jewish community has many high profile Conservative (both party affiliates and ideological) who conflate antisemitism with anti Israel sentiment and that Labour are the most openly anti Israel party.

    From other Jewish people I know it splits down partisanship; conservative Jews agree that Labour is more problematic than other parties, left wing Jews see it differently. I feel this is political football aimed at a few things (floating cosmopolitan voters who use antisemitism as a proxy for socially liberal, and an attempt to hold back losses in Barnet and other London areas), but not at actually tackling antisemitism.

    I will mention that the culturally Jewish previous leader of the Labour party had his father maligned as a wandering Jew who didn't "love his country" and wanted to cause chaos, and was ridiculed for not eating a bacon sandwich in a normal (read gentile) way.
  • David_EvershedDavid_Evershed Posts: 6,506
    AndyJS said:

    I think we're heading for the formation of a new centrist party because there are enough people who despise both the Tories and Labour but who don't seem to find the LDs an attractive option for whatever reasons.

    The new centrist party would then have to merge with the LDs because of lack of infrastructure. Why not go straight to the LDs?
  • NorthofStokeNorthofStoke Posts: 1,758
    AndyJS said:

    I think we're heading for the formation of a new centrist party because there are enough people who despise both the Tories and Labour but who don't seem to find the LDs an attractive option for whatever reasons.

    I think that is possible but who will "seize the moment"? When JC took over I was absolutely certain that Labour would split but after the election I started to doubt my sanity.

    There are at least two possibilities: a pre-Brexit abandon Brexit party launch if the negotiations hit the rocks and a more likely post-Brexit party launch that accepts the Brexit agreeement. Perhaps Labour moderates are waiting to see the Brexit outcome as the political dynamics will be very different depending on what happens. It is possible that they may have to split earlier. Although a Tory split looks less likely short term that could change rapidly depending on both Brexit and who succeeds May.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 50,780

    malcolmg said:

    AndyJS said:

    I think we're heading for the formation of a new centrist party because there are enough people who despise both the Tories and Labour but who don't seem to find the LDs an attractive option for whatever reasons.

    How could anyone find the perfidious LD's an attractive option.
    What are the LDs unfaithful to?
    Pretty much depends who's offering.
This discussion has been closed.