Indeed. The idea it would be impossible for somebody to screw up and therefore it cannot be them is patently absurd. Even if it really wasn't them!
David Schneider also supports Corbyn, so hopefully him saying this can put some sense into the Corbynista conspiracist theorists on the far left who don’t think Russia did it.
I believe that the Labour Party frontbench position on the Skripals is that they haven't seen any evidence that Russia is guilty and without that they cannot support the government's actions against Russia. The government themselves haven't shared the evidence they say they have with Corbyn or any of the opposition front bench. Remember this is a government that said they had nearly 60 EU impact assessments in excruciating detail which turned out to be imaginary so I think it's reasonable not to automatically take this government at its word.
That isn't a conspiracy theory, Russia certainly has form for this and other governments who have seen the evidence adds weight to the belief that Russia did it. But it's not surprising that Corbyn's refused to just accept May's word about the intelligence. He didn't just accept Blair's word about 45 minutes either.
A tissue of unreal wish fulfilment. The war has already been well won. Waste of time.
Yes, I think this is the case. Moderates biggest issue, is that they don’t seem to have a large constituency for their politics in either the Labour Party nor among the wider electorate either. They need to convince both groups that they have a vision which can solve the big issues of the day. So far, I don’t see any sign that moderates realise that.
The choice is not the hard-left or the moderates. You can be left-wing and be prepared to condemn anti-Semitism publicly and unequivocally in all its guises. I am to the right of the Labour mainstream on economics, but I do not have a problem with that. You cannot sustainably redistribute wealth unless you create the conditions for it to be generated in the first place. I do think that’s a winnable argument - in time!
Indeed. The idea it would be impossible for somebody to screw up and therefore it cannot be them is patently absurd. Even if it really wasn't them!
David Schneider also supports Corbyn, so hopefully him saying this can put some sense into the Corbynista conspiracist theorists on the far left who don’t think Russia did it.
Which is all the more surprising given Corbyn's official position is, I believe, that he accepts that is was highly likely to be Russia, he is just wanting to be more cautious in response (this depends on whether one is criticising the government for being too harsh in response, or arguing the actions taken amount to little). I suppose it is not unheard of elsewhere, but it still surprises me when people can be so vehemently pro-somebody, even as they themselves take a different line to that person.
Yep, I used to think Corbyn’s hardcore supporters followed his line no matter what, now I think they are actually more extreme than him. I think they actually want him to take a more radical line on issues.
I suppose re - nationalising the railways is extreme to a Tory nowadays.But for many countries would be centre ground .
In my father's generation there was a similar battle within the Trades Unions. You are certainly associating with some purveyors of darkness, I'm afraid.
The moral sewer that is Corbyn and his acolytes will not lose control of the Labour Party by people like Joff joining. They will be bolstered, as they see more people rallying to their banner.
Thank you Anne and Royal for calling me and other members of the Labour Party such lovely names as "purveyors of darkness" and "moral sewer". It's heartening that PB is so welcoming to all political views.
Don’t play the victim. Anne used the word “some” and RoyalBlue talked about Corbyn and his acolytes being the “moral sewer”. Neither said that all Labour party members were like that but if you stay in a party with such issues and turn a blind eye or downplay or fail to speak up then, however good you may be, you too bear some responsibility.
Burke’s “ For evil to triumph, all it takes is for good men to do nothing” is apposite.
I voted for Corbyn in 2015 and 2016 and I joined Momentum on the first day, so you can make your own views on my moral compass. I don't feel like I'm on the evil side though.
Welcome back Joff. Plenty of non-Loons in the party still, you will be valued
Cheers.
My aim is not to maim the Labour party, it is to play a role - no matter how small - in making it electable again. The country needs a credible alternative and it doesn’t have one at the moment.
You have written from the heart. But you are on a fool’s errand, I’m afraid. Your money will be used by the current Labour party led by Corbyn et al to try and win power. Your joining will be taken by them as support for everything they are now doing and not doing, even the stuff you dislike. I like your posts and share your wish for a viable liberal social democratic opposition. But much as it may hurt you to hear this you will be treated by the current leadership as a useful idiot.
Still, good luck and let us know how you get on.
That is all possible. But I start from the premise that a Labour party led by the far-left cannot win power. There are four years until the next general election. There are a lot of internal elections berween now and then. I have a vote in all of them. Anyone else who joins Labour does as well.
I wish I shared your confidence in your starting premise. But I don’t. And I will do nothing to give any support to Corbyn and his acolytes. I want them gone with a passion. Only by withholding support can they get that message. (Though since I now live in a safe Labour seat, thanks to Mrs May’s stupidity last year, my protest will have no practical effect.) I hold no candle for the current government and the Lib Dems have - sadly - become both irrelevant and invisible.
In my father's generation there was a similar battle within the Trades Unions. You are certainly associating with some purveyors of darkness, I'm afraid.
The moral sewer that is Corbyn and his acolytes will not lose control of the Labour Party by people like Joff joining. They will be bolstered, as they see more people rallying to their banner.
Thank you Anne and Royal for calling me and other members of the Labour Party such lovely names as "purveyors of darkness" and "moral sewer". It's heartening that PB is so welcoming to all political views.
Don’t play the victim. Anne used the word “some” and RoyalBlue talked about Corbyn and his acolytes being the “moral sewer”. Neither said that all Labour party members were like that but if you stay in a party with such issues and turn a blind eye or downplay or fail to speak up then, however good you may be, you too bear some responsibility.
Burke’s “ For evil to triumph, all it takes is for good men to do nothing” is apposite.
I voted for Corbyn in 2015 and 2016 and I joined Momentum on the first day, so you can make your own views on my moral compass. I don't feel like I'm on the evil side though.
Indeed. The idea it would be impossible for somebody to screw up and therefore it cannot be them is patently absurd. Even if it really wasn't them!
David Schneider also supports Corbyn, so hopefully him saying this can put some sense into the Corbynista conspiracist theorists on the far left who don’t think Russia did it.
Which is all the more surprising given Corbyn's official position is, I believe, that he accepts that is was highly likely to be Russia, he is just wanting to be more cautious in response (this depends on whether one is criticising the government for being too harsh in response, or arguing the actions taken amount to little). I suppose it is not unheard of elsewhere, but it still surprises me when people can be so vehemently pro-somebody, even as they themselves take a different line to that person.
Yep, I used to think Corbyn’s hardcore supporters followed his line no matter what, now I think they are actually more extreme than him. I think they actually want him to take a more radical line on issues.
Sobering thought indeed.
Has it really been 2.5 years with him as Leader? What times we have had.
Yes, I remember being on here when he was elected. I would have never believed then that Corbyn would poll close to 40% at GE. Then again, I never thought Cameron would be resigning as PM a year after after winning in 2015.
Indeed. The idea it would be impossible for somebody to screw up and therefore it cannot be them is patently absurd. Even if it really wasn't them!
David Schneider also supports Corbyn, so hopefully him saying this can put some sense into the Corbynista conspiracist theorists on the far left who don’t think Russia did it.
Which is all the more surprising given Corbyn's official position is, I believe, that he accepts that is was highly likely to be Russia, he is just wanting to be more cautious in response (this depends on whether one is criticising the government for being too harsh in response, or arguing the actions taken amount to little). I suppose it is not unheard of elsewhere, but it still surprises me when people can be so vehemently pro-somebody, even as they themselves take a different line to that person.
Yep, I used to think Corbyn’s hardcore supporters followed his line no matter what, now I think they are actually more extreme than him. I think they actually want him to take a more radical line on issues.
Sobering thought indeed.
Has it really been 2.5 years with him as Leader? What times we have had.
Frankly, it is only a matter of time before Corbyn is accused of trying to undermine Corbyn.
In my father's generation there was a similar battle within the Trades Unions. You are certainly associating with some purveyors of darkness, I'm afraid.
The moral sewer that is Corbyn and his acolytes will not lose control of the Labour Party by people like Joff joining. They will be bolstered, as they see more people rallying to their banner.
Thank you Anne and Royal for calling me and other members of the Labour Party such lovely names as "purveyors of darkness" and "moral sewer". It's heartening that PB is so welcoming to all political views.
Welcoming, not embracing, perhaps.
Don't worry - in the end, everyone is a PB Tory. It might take years, but eventually they all go blue, even if only once.
Indeed. The idea it would be impossible for somebody to screw up and therefore it cannot be them is patently absurd. Even if it really wasn't them!
David Schneider also supports Corbyn, so hopefully him saying this can put some sense into the Corbynista conspiracist theorists on the far left who don’t think Russia did it.
I believe that the Labour Party frontbench position on the Skripals is that they haven't seen any evidence that Russia is guilty
I believe the conspiracy theorist remark relates to people online who are spinning all manner of alternate hypotheses, not to Corbyn, who has merely been lukewarm about what to do about it. Corbyn is on record as accepting it as likely to having been Russia and has done for almost a month now. So I don't quite know how the contention the front bench don't accept it was Russia as they have not seen the evidence stacks up. He makes direct reference to evidence in a statement below, even if he is careful with his words about it 'pointing' to Russia.
Jeremy Corbyn said the "evidence points towards Russia" being responsible for the Salisbury attack but he did not go as far as his shadow defence secretary
Corbyn has hemmed and hawed, he has left open the door to change his position at most, but it would seem incorrect to suggest he does not think it was Russia because he nobly won't just take May's word.
Some Corbyn supporters and opponents however seem to think that Corbyn does not think it was Russia at all.
And that puts them at odd with their own leader, and is also rife with conspiracies.
So in fact with Corbyn and the front bench publicly believing it seems to be Russia, it is demonstrably the case that any of his supporters online who dispute that are spinning conspiracy theories.
Indeed. The idea it would be impossible for somebody to screw up and therefore it cannot be them is patently absurd. Even if it really wasn't them!
David Schneider also supports Corbyn, so hopefully him saying this can put some sense into the Corbynista conspiracist theorists on the far left who don’t think Russia did it.
Which is all the more surprising given Corbyn's official position is, I believe, that he accepts that is was highly likely to be Russia, he is just wanting to be more cautious in response (this depends on whether one is criticising the government for being too harsh in response, or arguing the actions taken amount to little). I suppose it is not unheard of elsewhere, but it still surprises me when people can be so vehemently pro-somebody, even as they themselves take a different line to that person.
Yep, I used to think Corbyn’s hardcore supporters followed his line no matter what, now I think they are actually more extreme than him. I think they actually want him to take a more radical line on issues.
I suppose re - nationalising the railways is extreme to a Tory nowadays.But for many countries would be centre ground .
I don’t think renationalising the railways is extreme, but the conspiracy theories on Russia, and denial of issues concerning anti semitism are. I’m not a Tory, although it seems everyone who doesn’t agree with some of Corbyn’s supporters is these days.
Welcome back Joff. Plenty of non-Loons in the party still, you will be valued
Seconded.....I'm still with the Labour Party through thick and thin.....
On the anti Semite thing Joff, do you not think the right are ramping it ever so slightly for political mileage....?
Of course they are - and rightly so. The far-left’s tolerance of anti-Semitism gives free rein to people who have been dogwhistling to racists, bigots and xenophobes for years to take the moral high ground. Not only is the anti-Semitism inside Labour morally repugnant, it is also politically destructive.
Any antisemite in the Labour Party should be thrown out, simple, and now we've got a General Secretary who isn't pissing inside the tent that is going to happen. I wonder why SO wasn't concerned when Ken Livingstone was allowed to re-join the party despite being an awful anti-semite under Blair? Even Galloway was only finally thrown out (maybe he resigned just before he was pushed) for attacking Blair rather than being antisemitic.
In my father's generation there was a similar battle within the Trades Unions. You are certainly associating with some purveyors of darkness, I'm afraid.
The moral sewer that is Corbyn and his acolytes will not lose control of the Labour Party by people like Joff joining. They will be bolstered, as they see more people rallying to their banner.
Thank you Anne and Royal for calling me and other members of the Labour Party such lovely names as "purveyors of darkness" and "moral sewer". It's heartening that PB is so welcoming to all political views.
Don’t play the victim. Anne used the word “some” and RoyalBlue talked about Corbyn and his acolytes being the “moral sewer”. Neither said that all Labour party members were like that but if you stay in a party with such issues and turn a blind eye or downplay or fail to speak up then, however good you may be, you too bear some responsibility.
Burke’s “ For evil to triumph, all it takes is for good men to do nothing” is apposite.
I voted for Corbyn in 2015 and 2016 and I joined Momentum on the first day, so you can make your own views on my moral compass. I don't feel like I'm on the evil side though.
In my father's generation there was a similar battle within the Trades Unions. You are certainly associating with some purveyors of darkness, I'm afraid.
The moral sewer that is Corbyn and his acolytes will not lose control of the Labour Party by people like Joff joining. They will be bolstered, as they see more people rallying to their banner.
Thank you Anne and Royal for calling me and other members of the Labour Party such lovely names as "purveyors of darkness" and "moral sewer". It's heartening that PB is so welcoming to all political views.
Don’t play the victim. Anne used the word “some” and RoyalBlue talked about Corbyn and his acolytes being the “moral sewer”. Neither said that all Labour party members were like that but if you stay in a party with such issues and turn a blind eye or downplay or fail to speak up then, however good you may be, you too bear some responsibility.
Burke’s “ For evil to triumph, all it takes is for good men to do nothing” is apposite.
I voted for Corbyn in 2015 and 2016 and I joined Momentum on the first day, so you can make your own views on my moral compass. I don't feel like I'm on the evil side though.
Do you believe that there is a problem with antisemitism within the Labour Party?
On-topic: good luck, Mr. Observer. What are you going to do if Corbyn's still in place with six months to go until a General Election, though?
Switch over to the Lib Dems, of course. Still a force to be reckoned with. 100% Lib Dem candidates in many/most districts this year. Watch this space. PB Tories have written the Lib Dems off - all a bit prematurely, I think.
In my father's generation there was a similar battle within the Trades Unions. You are certainly associating with some purveyors of darkness, I'm afraid.
The moral sewer that is Corbyn and his acolytes will not lose control of the Labour Party by people like Joff joining. They will be bolstered, as they see more people rallying to their banner.
Thank you Anne and Royal for calling me and other members of the Labour Party such lovely names as "purveyors of darkness" and "moral sewer". It's heartening that PB is so welcoming to all political views.
Don’t play the victim. Anne used the word “some” and RoyalBlue talked about Corbyn and his acolytes being the “moral sewer”. Neither said that all Labour party members were like that but if you stay in a party with such issues and turn a blind eye or downplay or fail to speak up then, however good you may be, you too bear some responsibility.
Burke’s “ For evil to triumph, all it takes is for good men to do nothing” is apposite.
I voted for Corbyn in 2015 and 2016 and I joined Momentum on the first day, so you can make your own views on my moral compass. I don't feel like I'm on the evil side though.
On-topic: good luck, Mr. Observer. What are you going to do if Corbyn's still in place with six months to go until a General Election, though?
Switch over to the Lib Dems, of course. Still a force to be reckoned with. 100% Lib Dem candidates in many/most districts this year. Watch this space. PB Tories have written the Lib Dems off - all a bit prematurely, I think.
A tissue of unreal wish fulfilment. The war has already been well won. Waste of time.
Yes, I think this is the case. Moderates biggest issue, is that they don’t seem to have a large constituency for their politics in either the Labour Party nor among the wider electorate either. They need to convince both groups that they have a vision which can solve the big issues of the day. So far, I don’t see any sign that moderates realise that.
The choice is not the hard-left or the moderates. You can be left-wing and be prepared to condemn anti-Semitism publicly and unequivocally in all its guises. I am to the right of the Labour mainstream on economics, but I do not have a problem with that. You cannot sustainably redistribute wealth unless you create the conditions for it to be generated in the first place. I do think that’s a winnable argument - in time!
I agree that there are plenty of options for Labour other than hard left and moderates. Trouble is, many of those who oppose Corbyn don’t seem to see it that way. Their idea of an ‘effective’ Labour Party is a moderate one, and there isn’t a recognition of spectrum of views that exists between moderates and the hard left.
At least you’re trying to make the case for an alternative to Corbyn. Many of Corbyn’s opponents in Labour can only be anti-Corbyn but are out of ideas.
Thank you @SouthamObserver, an interesting piece. I fear, however, that you are deluded to think that Corbyn can't become PM. I think it's still unlikely, but it is possible.
Presumably you'd prefer the current government to one led by Corbyn? So if the Corbyn is still leading Labour at the next election, presumably you won't be able to vote for your local MP - am I right in thinking your in Warwick and Leamington? Did you vote Labour last year?
Welcome back Joff. Plenty of non-Loons in the party still, you will be valued
Seconded.....I'm still with the Labour Party through thick and thin.....
On the anti Semite thing Joff, do you not think the right are ramping it ever so slightly for political mileage....?
Of course they are - and rightly so. The far-left’s tolerance of anti-Semitism gives free rein to people who have been dogwhistling to racists, bigots and xenophobes for years to take the moral high ground. Not only is the anti-Semitism inside Labour morally repugnant, it is also politically destructive.
Any antisemite in the Labour Party should be thrown out, simple, and now we've got a General Secretary who isn't pissing inside the tent that is going to happen. I wonder why SO wasn't concerned when Ken Livingstone was allowed to re-join the party despite being an awful anti-semite under Blair? Even Galloway was only finally thrown out (maybe he resigned just before he was pushed) for attacking Blair rather than being antisemitic.
Not sure Jennie Formby is the implcable, relentless fighter against anti-Semitism you think she is:
On-topic: good luck, Mr. Observer. What are you going to do if Corbyn's still in place with six months to go until a General Election, though?
Switch over to the Lib Dems, of course. Still a force to be reckoned with. 100% Lib Dem candidates in many/most districts this year. Watch this space. PB Tories have written the Lib Dems off - all a bit prematurely, I think.
We are all PB Tories now, comrade!
But to be serious, it may be premature to write the Lib Dems off. But they're in a terrible state at the moment under Cable. Do you really think he will attract many new voters, and if so, why?
Welcome back Joff. Plenty of non-Loons in the party still, you will be valued
Seconded.....I'm still with the Labour Party through thick and thin.....
On the anti Semite thing Joff, do you not think the right are ramping it ever so slightly for political mileage....?
Of course they are - and rightly so. The far-left’s tolerance of anti-Semitism gives free rein to people who have been dogwhistling to racists, bigots and xenophobes for years to take the moral high ground. Not only is the anti-Semitism inside Labour morally repugnant, it is also politically destructive.
We had our own time in the Tories when we had to reflect on how we were perceived by the voters. "The Nasty Party". We had somebody prepared to point that out.
On-topic: good luck, Mr. Observer. What are you going to do if Corbyn's still in place with six months to go until a General Election, though?
Switch over to the Lib Dems, of course. Still a force to be reckoned with. 100% Lib Dem candidates in many/most districts this year. Watch this space. PB Tories have written the Lib Dems off - all a bit prematurely, I think.
Good luck, it seems like a long hard road for your lot. I voted LD three GEs in a row and many other elections, but right now I don't really know what the party wants to do (I can easily look past a key policy of rejoin/remain). Take a distinct path from the big two? Be Labour-lite as many seem like they always wanted?
In other matters, City should be about 8-0 up by now.
A tissue of unreal wish fulfilment. The war has already been well won. Waste of time.
Yes, I think this is the case. Moderates biggest issue, is that they don’t seem to have a large constituency for their politics in either the Labour Party nor among the wider electorate either. They need to convince both groups that they have a vision which can solve the big issues of the day. So far, I don’t see any sign that moderates realise that.
The choice is not the hard-left or the moderates. You can be left-wing and be prepared to condemn anti-Semitism publicly and unequivocally in all its guises. I am to the right of the Labour mainstream on economics, but I do not have a problem with that. You cannot sustainably redistribute wealth unless you create the conditions for it to be generated in the first place. I do think that’s a winnable argument - in time!
I agree that there are plenty of options for Labour other than hard left and moderates. Trouble is, many of those who oppose Corbyn don’t seem to see it that way. Their idea of an ‘effective’ Labour Party is a moderate one, and there isn’t a recognition of spectrum of views that exists between moderates and the hard left.
At least you’re trying to make the case for an alternative to Corbyn. Many of Corbyn’s opponents in Labour can only be anti-Corbyn but are out of ideas.
I have plenty of ideas. Most Labour members will instinctively hate them! But that’s fine. I like a good argument ;-)
A tissue of unreal wish fulfilment. The war has already been well won. Waste of time.
Yes, I think this is the case. Moderates biggest issue, is that they don’t seem to have a large constituency for their politics in either the Labour Party nor among the wider electorate either. They need to convince both groups that they have a vision which can solve the big issues of the day. So far, I don’t see any sign that moderates realise that.
The choice is not the hard-left or the moderates. You can be left-wing and be prepared to condemn anti-Semitism publicly and unequivocally in all its guises. I am to the right of the Labour mainstream on economics, but I do not have a problem with that. You cannot sustainably redistribute wealth unless you create the conditions for it to be generated in the first place. I do think that’s a winnable argument - in time!
I agree that there are plenty of options for Labour other than hard left and moderates. Trouble is, many of those who oppose Corbyn don’t seem to see it that way. Their idea of an ‘effective’ Labour Party is a moderate one, and there isn’t a recognition of spectrum of views that exists between moderates and the hard left.
At least you’re trying to make the case for an alternative to Corbyn. Many of Corbyn’s opponents in Labour can only be anti-Corbyn but are out of ideas.
I have plenty of ideas. Most Labour members will instinctively hate them! But that’s fine. I like a good argument ;-)
Those amateurs won't have weathered the PB storms you will have, they don't stand a chance.
Indeed. The idea it would be impossible for somebody to screw up and therefore it cannot be them is patently absurd. Even if it really wasn't them!
David Schneider also supports Corbyn, so hopefully him saying this can put some sense into the Corbynista conspiracist theorists on the far left who don’t think Russia did it.
I believe that the Labour Party frontbench position on the Skripals is that they haven't seen any evidence that Russia is guilty and without that they cannot support the government's actions against Russia. The government themselves haven't shared the evidence they say they have with Corbyn or any of the opposition front bench. Remember this is a government that said they had nearly 60 EU impact assessments in excruciating detail which turned out to be imaginary so I think it's reasonable not to automatically take this government at its word.
That isn't a conspiracy theory, Russia certainly has form for this and other governments who have seen the evidence adds weight to the belief that Russia did it. But it's not surprising that Corbyn's refused to just accept May's word about the intelligence. He didn't just accept Blair's word about 45 minutes either.
My understanding of Labour’s position on this is similar to that if kle4 - that Corbyn conceded that it is likely Russia did it but being cautious about being definitive on the matter. McDonnell has struck a more tougher on Russia line than Corbyn, but I think even Corbyn has spoken of tackling the issue of Russian money. Although I take a more tougher line on Russia than Corbyn it’s not him nor the Labour front bench who I think are conspiracy theorists. It’s some of his hardcore supporters, who are taking a more radical stance on this than Corbyn!
Thank you @SouthamObserver, an interesting piece. I fear, however, that you are deluded to think that Corbyn can't become PM. I think it's still unlikely, but it is possible.
Presumably you'd prefer the current government to one led by Corbyn? So if the Corbyn is still leading Labour at the next election, presumably you won't be able to vote for your local MP - am I right in thinking your in Warwick and Leamington? Did you vote Labour last year?
I did not vote Labour last year. I went to the polling station, but did a none of the above.
Welcome back Joff. Plenty of non-Loons in the party still, you will be valued
Seconded.....I'm still with the Labour Party through thick and thin.....
On the anti Semite thing Joff, do you not think the right are ramping it ever so slightly for political mileage....?
Of course they are - and rightly so. The far-left’s tolerance of anti-Semitism gives free rein to people who have been dogwhistling to racists, bigots and xenophobes for years to take the moral high ground. Not only is the anti-Semitism inside Labour morally repugnant, it is also politically destructive.
Any antisemite in the Labour Party should be thrown out, simple, and now we've got a General Secretary who isn't pissing inside the tent that is going to happen. I wonder why SO wasn't concerned when Ken Livingstone was allowed to re-join the party despite being an awful anti-semite under Blair? Even Galloway was only finally thrown out (maybe he resigned just before he was pushed) for attacking Blair rather than being antisemitic.
Not sure Jennie Formby is the implcable, relentless fighter against anti-Semitism you think she is:
Today’s Guardian makes clear just how serious Momentum’s leaders are about anti-Semitism inside Labour.
I think that Jennie would be good at being General Secretary. The Indy article is a bit guilt by association, I've line managed people that I haven't directly recruited before. But we'll see, I don't think the issue is going away and it's something we in the Labour Party need to address. I've been trying to get some awareness training arranged for activists already this week for example.
Mr. Clipp, even if that's so, Mr. Observer will have spent years helping Corbyn-Labour in electoral terms.
I don't envy him the choice. But unless he (and those like him) can oust Corbyn, they're going to end up campaigning for him.
Up to a point, Mr Dancer. But if all Mr Observer is going to do is hand over five opunds a yatr to the Labour coffers (and vote in their internal elections, of course), then his contribution is but a drop in the ocean alongside the millions poured in by the trade union leaders.
Thank you @SouthamObserver, an interesting piece. I fear, however, that you are deluded to think that Corbyn can't become PM. I think it's still unlikely, but it is possible.
Presumably you'd prefer the current government to one led by Corbyn? So if the Corbyn is still leading Labour at the next election, presumably you won't be able to vote for your local MP - am I right in thinking your in Warwick and Leamington? Did you vote Labour last year?
Of course Corbyn can become PM. He is leader of the opposition and isn't going anywhere in next few years. Roughly 40% of the voters want him as PM according to recent polling.
I agree it seems highly unlikely given the history of UK voting patterns, marginals etc etc but I'm not sure we can rely on that any more.
Welcome back Joff. Plenty of non-Loons in the party still, you will be valued
Seconded.....I'm still with the Labour Party through thick and thin.....
On the anti Semite thing Joff, do you not think the right are ramping it ever so slightly for political mileage....?
Of course they are - and rightly so. The far-left’s tolerance of anti-Semitism gives free rein to people who have been dogwhistling to racists, bigots and xenophobes for years to take the moral high ground. Not only is the anti-Semitism inside Labour morally repugnant, it is also politically destructive.
We had our own time in the Tories when we had to reflect on how we were perceived by the voters. "The Nasty Party". We had somebody prepared to point that out.
Thank you @SouthamObserver, an interesting piece. I fear, however, that you are deluded to think that Corbyn can't become PM. I think it's still unlikely, but it is possible.
Presumably you'd prefer the current government to one led by Corbyn? So if the Corbyn is still leading Labour at the next election, presumably you won't be able to vote for your local MP - am I right in thinking your in Warwick and Leamington? Did you vote Labour last year?
I did not vote Labour last year. I went to the polling station, but did a none of the above.
Do you know your MP? Will you tell him that you won't be voting for him?
A tissue of unreal wish fulfilment. The war has already been well won. Waste of time.
Yes, I think this is the case. Moderates biggest issue, is that they don’t seem to have a large constituency for their politics in either the Labour Party nor among the wider electorate either. They need to convince both groups that they have a vision which can solve the big issues of the day. So far, I don’t see any sign that moderates realise that.
The choice is not the hard-left or the moderates. You can be left-wing and be prepared to condemn anti-Semitism publicly and unequivocally in all its guises. I am to the right of the Labour mainstream on economics, but I do not have a problem with that. You cannot sustainably redistribute wealth unless you create the conditions for it to be generated in the first place. I do think that’s a winnable argument - in time!
I agree that there are plenty of options for Labour other than hard left and moderates. Trouble is, many of those who oppose Corbyn don’t seem to see it that way. Their idea of an ‘effective’ Labour Party is a moderate one, and there isn’t a recognition of spectrum of views that exists between moderates and the hard left.
At least you’re trying to make the case for an alternative to Corbyn. Many of Corbyn’s opponents in Labour can only be anti-Corbyn but are out of ideas.
I have plenty of ideas. Most Labour members will instinctively hate them! But that’s fine. I like a good argument ;-)
A tissue of unreal wish fulfilment. The war has already been well won. Waste of time.
Yes, I think this is the case. Moderates biggest issue, is that they don’t seem to have a large constituency for their politics in either the Labour Party nor among the wider electorate either. They need to convince both groups that they have a vision which can solve the big issues of the day. So far, I don’t see any sign that moderates realise that.
The choice is not the hard-left or the moderates. You can be left-wing and be prepared to condemn anti-Semitism publicly and unequivocally in all its guises. I am to the right of the Labour mainstream on economics, but I do not have a problem with that. You cannot sustainably redistribute wealth unless you create the conditions for it to be generated in the first place. I do think that’s a winnable argument - in time!
I agree that there are plenty of options for Labour other than hard left and moderates. Trouble is, many of those who oppose Corbyn don’t seem to see it that way. Their idea of an ‘effective’ Labour Party is a moderate one, and there isn’t a recognition of spectrum of views that exists between moderates and the hard left.
At least you’re trying to make the case for an alternative to Corbyn. Many of Corbyn’s opponents in Labour can only be anti-Corbyn but are out of ideas.
I have plenty of ideas. Most Labour members will instinctively hate them! But that’s fine. I like a good argument ;-)
Good luck!
Will you be kind enough to let us know the first time you are told to 'Just F-off and join the f-ing Tories'?
Welcome back Joff. Plenty of non-Loons in the party still, you will be valued
Seconded.....I'm still with the Labour Party through thick and thin.....
On the anti Semite thing Joff, do you not think the right are ramping it ever so slightly for political mileage....?
Of course they are - and rightly so. The far-left’s tolerance of anti-Semitism gives free rein to people who have been dogwhistling to racists, bigots and xenophobes for years to take the moral high ground. Not only is the anti-Semitism inside Labour morally repugnant, it is also politically destructive.
Any antisemite in the Labour Party should be thrown out, simple, and now we've got a General Secretary who isn't pissing inside the tent that is going to happen. I wonder why SO wasn't concerned when Ken Livingstone was allowed to re-join the party despite being an awful anti-semite under Blair? Even Galloway was only finally thrown out (maybe he resigned just before he was pushed) for attacking Blair rather than being antisemitic.
Not sure Jennie Formby is the implcable, relentless fighter against anti-Semitism you think she is:
Today’s Guardian makes clear just how serious Momentum’s leaders are about anti-Semitism inside Labour.
I think that Jennie would be good at being General Secretary. The Indy article is a bit guilt by association, I've line managed people that I haven't directly recruited before. But we'll see, I don't think the issue is going away and it's something we in the Labour Party need to address. I've been trying to get some awareness training arranged for activists already this week for example.
Anti-semitism is not like other forms of racism, which are usually based on theories of backwardness and ethnic inferiority. Anti-Semitism is all about conspiracies, disloyalty, suppression and so on. That does mean that in certain instances training about what it is, how it manifests itself and how it makes Jews feel can be helpful. Labour’s problem is that in too many instances anti-Semitism has been called out and then dismissed as either non-existent or as a plot designed to undermine the leadership. I don’t see how you train that out of people. Corbyn shared platforms with avowed anti-Semites for decades and for decades people said it was wrong. He did nothing.
Joff Wild certainly makes an interesting argument, to sum it up : The Labour Party are Racist hypocrites - join The Labour Party. Why not join UKIP on that basis ? All those £5s contribute to putting The Far Left in Number 10. The FPTP argument has some validity but the thing that stopped The SDP/Liberal Alliance was the Argentine invasion of The Falklands, without that they would probably have got more votes than Labour in 1983 & that would have cracked Labour right open. Labour Moderates who think they can get their Party back are kidding themselves, right now Labour Membership is falling by 70,000 a Year (according to their own figures) & its the Moderates who are leaving. Corbyns position is getting stronger.
Hopefully we can put your financial contributions to good use getting a Corbyn led Labour party to victory in the next election
I don't want to dismiss your idea and over the longer term you could bring things back around to your way but I think the whole saving Labour idea during the 2016 coup showed how difficult a road that will be.
Getting people to join a party when they don't like the leader is pretty tricky.
Joff Wild certainly makes an interesting argument, to sum it up : The Labour Party are Racist hypocrites - join The Labour Party. Why not join UKIP on that basis ? .
I think the argument is a bit more nuanced than that, but even if it wasn't, the answer 'Why not ukip?' would be that ukip are not going to be forming a governmental alternative to the Tories, whether one likes that Labour are the only alternative or not.
Joff Wild certainly makes an interesting argument, to sum it up : The Labour Party are Racist hypocrites - join The Labour Party. Why not join UKIP on that basis ? .
I think the argument is a bit more nuanced than that, but even if it wasn't, the answer 'Why not ukip?' would be that ukip are not going to be forming a governmental alternative to the Tories, whether one likes that Labour are the only alternative or not.
I actually think the likes of Joff would have more chance taking control of the Conservatives.
We all know how the average age of home owenership has been rising and rising in the UK, with 30 year olds today much less likely to own their own home than 20 years ago.
What is curious is threefold:
1. This trend seems almost as pronounced in areas of the UK where house prices have barely budged (the North West and East Anglia), as where they have soared (London).
2. This trend has also been seen in the US, Japan and Canada. In Canada, the average age of first home purchase is now 36, up from 30 in the mid 2000s!
3. The only place in the world where average age of first home ownership seems to be falling is Germany. Which is odd, because Germany has had one of the hottest property markets in the world.
Rising prices should mean lower affordability, should mean later home ownership. But it seems that required deposit levels, and confidence about the direction of future house prices are at least as important to first time buyers.
Joff Wild certainly makes an interesting argument, to sum it up : The Labour Party are Racist hypocrites - join The Labour Party. Why not join UKIP on that basis ? .
I think the argument is a bit more nuanced than that, but even if it wasn't, the answer 'Why not ukip?' would be that ukip are not going to be forming a governmental alternative to the Tories, whether one likes that Labour are the only alternative or not.
I actually think the likes of Joff would have more chance taking control of the Conservatives.
Well, if the Corbynistas are right and the centre ground has moved more to the left, then the Tories will have moved more left too, even as they remain, by comparison, on the centre right.
I've wrestled with this and my insurmountable obstacle to rejoining Labour to change it is that I cannot collaborate with getting Corbyn and McDonell into power and I also cannot lie about supporting Labour regardless of leadership and platform. I'm also not too keen on the identity politics promoted by much of the non-Corbyn left.
We all have a combination of beliefs but I'm confident that I'm broadly in line with a lot of people who are dismayed at the current situation. Basicly Liberal, wants decent public services and some wealth re-distribution, fiscally conservative and don't like hysterical fads and too much identity politics.
Anti-semitism is not like other forms of racism, which are usually based on theories of backwardness and ethnic inferiority. Anti-Semitism is all about conspiracies, disloyalty, suppression and so on. That does mean that in certain instances training about what it is, how it manifests itself and how it makes Jews feel can be helpful. Labour’s problem is that in too many instances anti-Semitism has been called out and then dismissed as either non-existent or as a plot designed to undermine the leadership. I don’t see how you train that out of people. Corbyn shared platforms with avowed anti-Semites for decades and for decades people said it was wrong. He did nothing.
This is what I perceive to be the problem. Antisemitism is a problem and needs to be addressed. But when it's perceived as being just a stick for people who are already opposed to Corbyn rather than a problem in it's own right then there's a natural tendency for the Corbynite Left to want to close ranks. It's not the right thing to do but it is natural. Joff, if you really do want to help the Labour Party, talk to your local Corbynistas and understand where they are coming from.
We all know how the average age of home owenership has been rising and rising in the UK, with 30 year olds today much less likely to own their own home than 20 years ago.
What is curious is threefold:
1. This trend seems almost as pronounced in areas of the UK where house prices have barely budged (the North West and East Anglia), as where they have soared (London).
2. This trend has also been seen in the US, Japan and Canada. In Canada, the average age of first home purchase is now 36, up from 30 in the mid 2000s!
3. The only place in the world where average age of first home ownership seems to be falling is Germany. Which is odd, because Germany has had one of the hottest property markets in the world.
Rising prices should mean lower affordability, should mean later home ownership. But it seems that required deposit levels, and confidence about the direction of future house prices are at least as important to first time buyers.
A tissue of unreal wish fulfilment. The war has already been well won. Waste of time.
Yes, I think this is the case. Moderates biggest issue, is that they don’t seem to have a large constituency for their politics in either the Labour Party nor among the wider electorate either. They need to convince both groups that they have a vision which can solve the big issues of the day. So far, I don’t see any sign that moderates realise that.
The choice is not the hard-left or the moderates. You can be left-wing and be prepared to condemn anti-Semitism publicly and unequivocally in all its guises. I am to the right of the Labour mainstream on economics, but I do not have a problem with that. You cannot sustainably redistribute wealth unless you create the conditions for it to be generated in the first place. I do think that’s a winnable argument - in time!
I agree that there are plenty of options for Labour other than hard left and moderates. Trouble is, many of those who oppose Corbyn don’t seem to see it that way. Their idea of an ‘effective’ Labour Party is a moderate one, and there isn’t a recognition of spectrum of views that exists between moderates and the hard left.
At least you’re trying to make the case for an alternative to Corbyn. Many of Corbyn’s opponents in Labour can only be anti-Corbyn but are out of ideas.
I have plenty of ideas. Most Labour members will instinctively hate them! But that’s fine. I like a good argument ;-)
We all know how the average age of home owenership has been rising and rising in the UK, with 30 year olds today much less likely to own their own home than 20 years ago.
What is curious is threefold:
1. This trend seems almost as pronounced in areas of the UK where house prices have barely budged (the North West and East Anglia), as where they have soared (London).
2. This trend has also been seen in the US, Japan and Canada. In Canada, the average age of first home purchase is now 36, up from 30 in the mid 2000s!
3. The only place in the world where average age of first home ownership seems to be falling is Germany. Which is odd, because Germany has had one of the hottest property markets in the world.
Rising prices should mean lower affordability, should mean later home ownership. But it seems that required deposit levels, and confidence about the direction of future house prices are at least as important to first time buyers.
Anyway, my investigations continue.
Makes sense, my parents bought their first house without a deposit in 1980 and that seems to have been common in the 80s. It's the saving a deposit while having to pay more than a monthly mortgage payment to rent that means would be first time buyers can't.
We all know how the average age of home owenership has been rising and rising in the UK, with 30 year olds today much less likely to own their own home than 20 years ago.
What is curious is threefold:
1. This trend seems almost as pronounced in areas of the UK where house prices have barely budged (the North West and East Anglia), as where they have soared (London).
2. This trend has also been seen in the US, Japan and Canada. In Canada, the average age of first home purchase is now 36, up from 30 in the mid 2000s!
3. The only place in the world where average age of first home ownership seems to be falling is Germany. Which is odd, because Germany has had one of the hottest property markets in the world.
Rising prices should mean lower affordability, should mean later home ownership. But it seems that required deposit levels, and confidence about the direction of future house prices are at least as important to first time buyers.
Anyway, my investigations continue.
Makes sense, my parents bought their first house without a deposit in 1980 and that seems to have been common in the 80s. It's the saving a deposit while having to pay more than a monthly mortgage payment to rent that means would be first time buyers can't.
It’s not just the deposit. You need a good £5k to cover all the legal and moving fees, as well as generally setting yourselves up with basic furniture and white goods. Stamp duty is now less of a problem, as are the mortgage fees which can usually be added onto the mortgage, but they still exist. I’d guess a minimum deposit of 5% on a £180k entry level property requires about £12-14k minimum in cash.
It is hard to even save £12-14k in your 20s - when you are paying high rents and student loans -unless you are extremely disciplined at squirrelling away £150-200 a month, or live with your folks.
If you managed the former you’d be looking at about 5-7 years of frugal living to do it, so that’d probably take you to age 26-28 and a not particularly exciting 20s outside of work.
More likely a reversion to the mean, the last YouGov seemed a bit of an outlier. I don't think there's been anything much that would cause the general public to switch between camps at this point.
We all know how the average age of home owenership has been rising and rising in the UK, with 30 year olds today much less likely to own their own home than 20 years ago.
What is curious is threefold:
1. This trend seems almost as pronounced in areas of the UK where house prices have barely budged (the North West and East Anglia), as where they have soared (London).
2. This trend has also been seen in the US, Japan and Canada. In Canada, the average age of first home purchase is now 36, up from 30 in the mid 2000s!
3. The only place in the world where average age of first home ownership seems to be falling is Germany. Which is odd, because Germany has had one of the hottest property markets in the world.
Rising prices should mean lower affordability, should mean later home ownership. But it seems that required deposit levels, and confidence about the direction of future house prices are at least as important to first time buyers.
Anyway, my investigations continue.
I think on point 1 you need to differentiate to a more local level - Manchester is differnt to Pendle which is different to Westmoreland.
Though its inevitable everywhere that the age of first house purchase will have risen if only because the age at which start full time employment will also have risen during the last 20 years.
We all know how the average age of home owenership has been rising and rising in the UK, with 30 year olds today much less likely to own their own home than 20 years ago.
What is curious is threefold:
1. This trend seems almost as pronounced in areas of the UK where house prices have barely budged (the North West and East Anglia), as where they have soared (London).
2. This trend has also been seen in the US, Japan and Canada. In Canada, the average age of first home purchase is now 36, up from 30 in the mid 2000s!
3. The only place in the world where average age of first home ownership seems to be falling is Germany. Which is odd, because Germany has had one of the hottest property markets in the world.
Rising prices should mean lower affordability, should mean later home ownership. But it seems that required deposit levels, and confidence about the direction of future house prices are at least as important to first time buyers.
Anyway, my investigations continue.
Makes sense, my parents bought their first house without a deposit in 1980 and that seems to have been common in the 80s. It's the saving a deposit while having to pay more than a monthly mortgage payment to rent that means would be first time buyers can't.
What drove me to buy my first home in 1982 was: 1. An increase in my income (associated with working overseas) 2. An increase in the allowable multiple from 2.5 x income to 3.5 3. Rapid house inflation meaning I was determined not to be left ever further away from being able to get on the home ownership ladder. 4. High rents, meaning I could subside my mortgage payments 5. A windfall inheritance meaning I could (just) scrape the 20% (in those days) deposit together. The houses I looked at were directly related to the size of my deposit, seeking the maximum I could get a mortgage for.
So for me, the future direction of house prices in a very hot market was the key driver.
We all know how the average age of home owenership has been rising and rising in the UK, with 30 year olds today much less likely to own their own home than 20 years ago.
What is curious is threefold:
1. This trend seems almost as pronounced in areas of the UK where house prices have barely budged (the North West and East Anglia), as where they have soared (London).
2. This trend has also been seen in the US, Japan and Canada. In Canada, the average age of first home purchase is now 36, up from 30 in the mid 2000s!
3. The only place in the world where average age of first home ownership seems to be falling is Germany. Which is odd, because Germany has had one of the hottest property markets in the world.
Rising prices should mean lower affordability, should mean later home ownership. But it seems that required deposit levels, and confidence about the direction of future house prices are at least as important to first time buyers.
Anyway, my investigations continue.
I think on point 1 you need to differentiate to a more local level - Manchester is differnt to Pendle which is different to Westmoreland.
Though its inevitable everywhere that the age of first house purchase will have risen if only because the age at which start full time employment will also have risen during the last 20 years.
As has the age at which we get married, with many people still enjoying single life well into their thirties. These trends are similar around the Western world.
We all know how the average age of home owenership has been rising and rising in the UK, with 30 year olds today much less likely to own their own home than 20 years ago.
What is curious is threefold:
1. This trend seems almost as pronounced in areas of the UK where house prices have barely budged (the North West and East Anglia), as where they have soared (London).
2. This trend has also been seen in the US, Japan and Canada. In Canada, the average age of first home purchase is now 36, up from 30 in the mid 2000s!
3. The only place in the world where average age of first home ownership seems to be falling is Germany. Which is odd, because Germany has had one of the hottest property markets in the world.
Rising prices should mean lower affordability, should mean later home ownership. But it seems that required deposit levels, and confidence about the direction of future house prices are at least as important to first time buyers.
Anyway, my investigations continue.
Maybe it's something to do with people remaining single later in life. It's probably much easier to make a big decision like buying a house when two people are able to rely on each other for support in getting through it all.
His comments come as polling shows that Mr Corbyn’s personal ratings have dropped sharply. A YouGov poll of 1,662 people for The Times reveals that the proportion of those who say he is doing “badly” has jumped by 19 points since December 19-20 to 56 per cent, with the proportion who say he is doing “well” down 14 to 31 per cent.
We all know how the average age of home owenership has been rising and rising in the UK, with 30 year olds today much less likely to own their own home than 20 years ago.
What is curious is threefold:
1. This trend seems almost as pronounced in areas of the UK where house prices have barely budged (the North West and East Anglia), as where they have soared (London).
2. This trend has also been seen in the US, Japan and Canada. In Canada, the average age of first home purchase is now 36, up from 30 in the mid 2000s!
3. The only place in the world where average age of first home ownership seems to be falling is Germany. Which is odd, because Germany has had one of the hottest property markets in the world.
Rising prices should mean lower affordability, should mean later home ownership. But it seems that required deposit levels, and confidence about the direction of future house prices are at least as important to first time buyers.
Anyway, my investigations continue.
I think on point 1 you need to differentiate to a more local level - Manchester is differnt to Pendle which is different to Westmoreland.
Though its inevitable everywhere that the age of first house purchase will have risen if only because the age at which start full time employment will also have risen during the last 20 years.
Unfortunately, the data is only available at a broad regional level, so it's hard for me to get the degree of granularity.
Your second point is an excellent one: people are starting work later as they spend more time at school and university. (I also wonder if the policies of Brown and Osborne to suppress savings rates played a role: they mean that mum and dad are much less likely to have cash in the bank to lend to junior so they can afford a deposit.)
"As far as I can see, though, the alternative is to do nothing except to howl into the void on Twitter. " Wouldn't that be better than help Labour get elected? Do you really think getting Labour elected will help the poor?
Actually, the electoral maths is wrong. If 50 or so Labour MPs defected, it's not implausible that Lib Dems could get 20-25%, like they did a few years ago. Labour were down to 25% about a year ago, and the only reason they bounced back was because they could pretend to be a Social Democratic party. If moderate Labour people stopped with that pretence, they would be down there, or lower again.
Staying with a party you oppose because of electoral inevitability seems a bit odd, given the inability of anyone to predict elections.
What a week for Man City. I now don’t think they’ll come back from that defeat to Liverpool this week.
There have been a number of similarities with the Arsenal Invincibles. Kompany should have been sent off at Leicester (Pires dived against Pompey). Palace missed a last minute penalty a bit like RVN.
This week feels a bit like Arsenal losing to Man Utd and Chelsea in the Cup and Champions League. I was fortunate enough to be at Highbury for the Liverpool game on Good Friday 2004. I reckon City will turn it around.
Good article Joff/Southam, and hey, things aren't that bad. There are many "moderates" still in the Labour Party. The deeply uninspiring Owen Smith polled 41% of party members in 2016. The 2017 manifesto wasn't too crazily left-wing.
What a week for Man City. I now don’t think they’ll come back from that defeat to Liverpool this week.
Liverpool must be hot favourites to go through - City humbled twice in 3 days
The game last week (well, the first half) was great. Looking forward to Tuesday, I think Liverpool could go all the way in the CL. Although they’ll have to get past two of RM, Bayern and Barca first.
What a week for Man City. I now don’t think they’ll come back from that defeat to Liverpool this week in the CL.
We've got a huge injury crisis.
We will definitely be without Can, Henderson, Lallana, and Gomez.
Salah, Robertson, and Moreno could be all missing with injuries.
So we could be without a recognised left back and for our last two matches our reserve centre back is a 19 year old who hasn't played a first team match.
Plus I'm going to the Etihad on Tuesday.
I know what's coming.
Plus we're owed the mother of all European comebacks.
What a week for Man City. I now don’t think they’ll come back from that defeat to Liverpool this week.
There have been a number of similarities with the Arsenal Invincibles. Kompany should have been sent off at Leicester (Pires dived against Pompey). Palace missed a last minute penalty a bit like RVN.
This week feels a bit like Arsenal losing to Man Utd and Chelsea in the Cup and Champions League. I was fortunate enough to be at Highbury for the Liverpool game on Good Friday 2004. I reckon City will turn it around.
Sadly Arsenal are far from their Invincible days. I used to be Wenger in for the longest time but even I now think he needs to go. I don’t see us winning the Europa League.
From previous topic . ThomasNashe - I live in Brazil. Depending on the concept you have of democracy, democracy t`s not at risk here, it simply does not exist. To pretend otherwise because we have elections, it`s to fool ourselves.
This story seems to confirm the world view of many Corbynistas.
The president of the World Jewish Congress was one of the biggest backers of a secretive group that spent millions of dollars on targeted campaign ads predicting a Muslim takeover of the United States.
Ronald Lauder gave $1.1 million to the group Secure America Now, the watchdog group Open Secrets revealed Thursday, citing IRS forms it had acquired. Secure America Now is not required to disclose its donors.
The organization’s biggest individual backer, at $2 million, was Robert Mercer, the hedge fund investor whose family has bankrolled Breitbart News and the data company Cambridge Analytica, which has been accused of improperly using Facebook data to sway prospective voters.
Secure America Now’s ads featured mock promotional travel ads portraying countries that had been taken over by the Islamic State. In one ad, the Statue of Liberty wears a burka and the Hollywood sign is changed to “Allahu Akbar.”
What a week for Man City. I now don’t think they’ll come back from that defeat to Liverpool this week in the CL.
We've got a huge injury crisis.
We will definitely be without Can, Henderson, Lallana, and Gomez.
Salah, Robertson, and Moreno could be all missing with injuries.
So we could be without a recognised left back and for our last two matches our reserve centre back is a 19 year old who hasn't played a first team match.
Plus I'm going to the Etihad on Tuesday.
I know what's coming.
Plus we're owed the mother of all European comebacks.
I didn’t know it was that bad for Liverpool. I knew Lallana was injured, but Salah and Can? Yeah, now I’m less sure about them pulling it off at the Etihad....
What a week for Man City. I now don’t think they’ll come back from that defeat to Liverpool this week in the CL.
We've got a huge injury crisis.
We will definitely be without Can, Henderson, Lallana, and Gomez.
Salah, Robertson, and Moreno could be all missing with injuries.
So we could be without a recognised left back and for our last two matches our reserve centre back is a 19 year old who hasn't played a first team match.
Plus I'm going to the Etihad on Tuesday.
I know what's coming.
Plus we're owed the mother of all European comebacks.
I didn’t know it was that bad for Liverpool. I knew Lallana was injured, but Salah and Can? Yeah, now I’m less sure about them pulling it off at the Etihad....
Salah picked up a groin injury on Wednesday and came off early in the second half, he missed the Merseyside derby today.
Can's been injured for a few weeks.
Robertson missed the derby as well due to injury, and Moreno got injured in the warm up.
Is there any need for a centrist party ? The current Con axis of May - Hammond is very wet but competent on the economy.
If you want to vote selfishly for a short termist raid on the treasury while car crashing the economy to hike the pay of vested interests like the public sector then you have Corbyn and his band of Communists. The Lib Dem’s are no longer as liberal as the Cons hence they have died a death.
The reason there is going to be a new centrists party is because the Conservatives are already there in govt.
If anything there is space now on the right for something more radical.
I'd tend to agree with that, for all the media noise about a new centrist party the opening on the right probably makes more sense. The problem is that isn't what a lot of the media wants to call out for!
On topic, I am pleased that Joff has decided to rejoin us. He is politically to the right of me, just as Momentum are to the left, but we are all part of one movement, one Party, one desire - to get rid of the Tory government and put something better in place.
At a local level, comrades from Blairites to Bennites work together with common purpose - in the next month that is to get councillors elected.
I'm not pretending there isn't conflict within the party, but we have more to unite us than to divide us.
I for one would rather see Jezza as next PM than BoJo or the Moggster.
What a week for Man City. I now don’t think they’ll come back from that defeat to Liverpool this week in the CL.
We've got a huge injury crisis.
We will definitely be without Can, Henderson, Lallana, and Gomez.
Salah, Robertson, and Moreno could be all missing with injuries.
So we could be without a recognised left back and for our last two matches our reserve centre back is a 19 year old who hasn't played a first team match.
Plus I'm going to the Etihad on Tuesday.
I know what's coming.
Plus we're owed the mother of all European comebacks.
I didn’t know it was that bad for Liverpool. I knew Lallana was injured, but Salah and Can? Yeah, now I’m less sure about them pulling it off at the Etihad....
Salah picked up a groin injury on Wednesday and came off early in the second half, he missed the Merseyside derby today.
Can's been injured for a few weeks.
Robertson missed the derby as well due to injury, and Moreno got injured in the warm up.
You're most important player, in my opinion, is James Milner. I would like to think Gareth Southgate is trying to get him to come out of international retirement.
I'd tend to agree with that, for all the media noise about a new centrist party the opening on the right probably makes more sense. The problem is that isn't what a lot of the media wants to call out for!
IIRC Stephen Bush has said similar. A lot of this new centre party talk really comes down to wishful thinking among liberal centrists.
I'd tend to agree with that, for all the media noise about a new centrist party the opening on the right probably makes more sense. The problem is that isn't what a lot of the media wants to call out for!
I'd tend to agree with that, for all the media noise about a new centrist party the opening on the right probably makes more sense. The problem is that isn't what a lot of the media wants to call out for!
Agreed too. In fact I'd take it a stage further. If it weren't for the Corbyn leadership there would probably be an opening for a pro-Brexit left party as well. Those 20% of anti-EU Labour supporters aren't Tories or centrists. If the party's leadership wasn't basically giving them the party they've always wanted they might well be tempted to split.
Comments
That isn't a conspiracy theory, Russia certainly has form for this and other governments who have seen the evidence adds weight to the belief that Russia did it. But it's not surprising that Corbyn's refused to just accept May's word about the intelligence. He didn't just accept Blair's word about 45 minutes either.
Jeremy Corbyn said the "evidence points towards Russia" being responsible for the Salisbury attack but he did not go as far as his shadow defence secretary
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-43414185
Corbyn has hemmed and hawed, he has left open the door to change his position at most, but it would seem incorrect to suggest he does not think it was Russia because he nobly won't just take May's word.
Some Corbyn supporters and opponents however seem to think that Corbyn does not think it was Russia at all.
And that puts them at odd with their own leader, and is also rife with conspiracies.
So in fact with Corbyn and the front bench publicly believing it seems to be Russia, it is demonstrably the case that any of his supporters online who dispute that are spinning conspiracy theories.
I don't envy him the choice. But unless he (and those like him) can oust Corbyn, they're going to end up campaigning for him.
At least you’re trying to make the case for an alternative to Corbyn. Many of Corbyn’s opponents in Labour can only be anti-Corbyn but are out of ideas.
Presumably you'd prefer the current government to one led by Corbyn? So if the Corbyn is still leading Labour at the next election, presumably you won't be able to vote for your local MP - am I right in thinking your in Warwick and Leamington? Did you vote Labour last year?
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/labour-general-secretary-jennie-formby-frontrunner-suspended-party-member-antisemitism-vicki-kirby-a8257736.html
Today’s Guardian makes clear just how serious Momentum’s leaders are about anti-Semitism inside Labour.
But to be serious, it may be premature to write the Lib Dems off. But they're in a terrible state at the moment under Cable. Do you really think he will attract many new voters, and if so, why?
That person is now PM.
Just saying, ambitious Labour MPs.
In other matters, City should be about 8-0 up by now.
I agree it seems highly unlikely given the history of UK voting patterns, marginals etc etc but I'm not sure we can rely on that any more.
Sorry, it was too easy to not go there.
Edit: What do the LDs charge?
Why not join UKIP on that basis ?
All those £5s contribute to putting The Far Left in Number 10.
The FPTP argument has some validity but the thing that stopped The SDP/Liberal Alliance was the Argentine invasion of The Falklands, without that they would probably have got more votes than Labour in 1983 & that would have cracked Labour right open.
Labour Moderates who think they can get their Party back are kidding themselves, right now Labour Membership is falling by 70,000 a Year (according to their own figures) & its the Moderates who are leaving. Corbyns position is getting stronger.
Hopefully we can put your financial contributions to good use getting a Corbyn led Labour party to victory in the next election
I don't want to dismiss your idea and over the longer term you could bring things back around to your way but I think the whole saving Labour idea during the 2016 coup showed how difficult a road that will be.
Getting people to join a party when they don't like the leader is pretty tricky.
What is curious is threefold:
1. This trend seems almost as pronounced in areas of the UK where house prices have barely budged (the North West and East Anglia), as where they have soared (London).
2. This trend has also been seen in the US, Japan and Canada. In Canada, the average age of first home purchase is now 36, up from 30 in the mid 2000s!
3. The only place in the world where average age of first home ownership seems to be falling is Germany. Which is odd, because Germany has had one of the hottest property markets in the world.
Rising prices should mean lower affordability, should mean later home ownership. But it seems that required deposit levels, and confidence about the direction of future house prices are at least as important to first time buyers.
Anyway, my investigations continue.
Evening all.
We all have a combination of beliefs but I'm confident that I'm broadly in line with a lot of people who are dismayed at the current situation. Basicly Liberal, wants decent public services and some wealth re-distribution, fiscally conservative and don't like hysterical fads and too much identity politics.
Unearthing the real facts on this are important.
It is hard to even save £12-14k in your 20s - when you are paying high rents and student loans -unless you are extremely disciplined at squirrelling away £150-200 a month, or live with your folks.
If you managed the former you’d be looking at about 5-7 years of frugal living to do it, so that’d probably take you to age 26-28 and a not particularly exciting 20s outside of work.
In front of 1 Billion Households
CON: 42% (-1)
LAB: 41% (+2)
LDEM: 7% (-1)
via @YouGov, 04 - 05 Apr
Though its inevitable everywhere that the age of first house purchase will have risen if only because the age at which start full time employment will also have risen during the last 20 years.
That has to be the worst decision I've seen in a long time.
Well since those two dodgy penalties were awarded to cheating Spurs at Anfield earlier on this season.
1. An increase in my income (associated with working overseas)
2. An increase in the allowable multiple from 2.5 x income to 3.5
3. Rapid house inflation meaning I was determined not to be left ever further away from being able to get on the home ownership ladder.
4. High rents, meaning I could subside my mortgage payments
5. A windfall inheritance meaning I could (just) scrape the 20% (in those days) deposit together. The houses I looked at were directly related to the size of my deposit, seeking the maximum I could get a mortgage for.
So for me, the future direction of house prices in a very hot market was the key driver.
His comments come as polling shows that Mr Corbyn’s personal ratings have dropped sharply. A YouGov poll of 1,662 people for The Times reveals that the proportion of those who say he is doing “badly” has jumped by 19 points since December 19-20 to 56 per cent, with the proportion who say he is doing “well” down 14 to 31 per cent.
Your second point is an excellent one: people are starting work later as they spend more time at school and university. (I also wonder if the policies of Brown and Osborne to suppress savings rates played a role: they mean that mum and dad are much less likely to have cash in the bank to lend to junior so they can afford a deposit.)
Actually, the electoral maths is wrong. If 50 or so Labour MPs defected, it's not implausible that Lib Dems could get 20-25%, like they did a few years ago. Labour were down to 25% about a year ago, and the only reason they bounced back was because they could pretend to be a Social Democratic party. If moderate Labour people stopped with that pretence, they would be down there, or lower again.
Staying with a party you oppose because of electoral inevitability seems a bit odd, given the inability of anyone to predict elections.
This week feels a bit like Arsenal losing to Man Utd and Chelsea in the Cup and Champions League. I was fortunate enough to be at Highbury for the Liverpool game on Good Friday 2004. I reckon City will turn it around.
We will definitely be without Can, Henderson, Lallana, and Gomez.
Salah, Robertson, and Moreno could be all missing with injuries.
So we could be without a recognised left back and for our last two matches our reserve centre back is a 19 year old who hasn't played a first team match.
Plus I'm going to the Etihad on Tuesday.
I know what's coming.
Plus we're owed the mother of all European comebacks.
The president of the World Jewish Congress was one of the biggest backers of a secretive group that spent millions of dollars on targeted campaign ads predicting a Muslim takeover of the United States.
Ronald Lauder gave $1.1 million to the group Secure America Now, the watchdog group Open Secrets revealed Thursday, citing IRS forms it had acquired. Secure America Now is not required to disclose its donors.
The organization’s biggest individual backer, at $2 million, was Robert Mercer, the hedge fund investor whose family has bankrolled Breitbart News and the data company Cambridge Analytica, which has been accused of improperly using Facebook data to sway prospective voters.
Secure America Now’s ads featured mock promotional travel ads portraying countries that had been taken over by the Islamic State. In one ad, the Statue of Liberty wears a burka and the Hollywood sign is changed to “Allahu Akbar.”
https://www.haaretz.com/us-news/ronald-lauder-gave-1-1-million-to-group-pushing-anti-muslim-campaign-1.5977658
Can's been injured for a few weeks.
Robertson missed the derby as well due to injury, and Moreno got injured in the warm up.
If you want to vote selfishly for a short termist raid on the treasury while car crashing the economy to hike the pay of vested interests like the public sector then you have Corbyn and his band of Communists. The Lib Dem’s are no longer as liberal as the Cons hence they have died a death.
The reason there is going to be a new centrists party is because the Conservatives are already there in govt.
If anything there is space now on the right for something more radical.
Good luck!
@TGOHF
I'd tend to agree with that, for all the media noise about a new centrist party the opening on the right probably makes more sense. The problem is that isn't what a lot of the media wants to call out for!
At a local level, comrades from Blairites to Bennites work together with common purpose - in the next month that is to get councillors elected.
I'm not pretending there isn't conflict within the party, but we have more to unite us than to divide us.
I for one would rather see Jezza as next PM than BoJo or the Moggster.