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  • malcolmg said:

    Nigelb said:

    malcolmg said:

    malcolmg said:

    FPT
    justin124 said:

    » show previous quotes
    I don't bet but I do not recall your prediction of 21 SNP losses in 2017.

    LOL, I offer a bet and the snowflake Tory hurls an insult. You cretinous cowardly half-witted dullard , go F**** yourself

    In which universe is Justin a Tory?
    He is an arse at best, needs to learn some social skills....
    I’m looking forward to the opening of malc’s finishing school for young gentlemen....

    Nigel, I will be sure to give you a large discount as you will only need minimal teaching.
    Evening Malc - would I get in free
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 66,729
    edited April 2018

    Oh no Kimi/Ferrari.

    That was more than a bit of a disaster, wasn't it? Who's in charge of those lights?
  • Andy_CookeAndy_Cooke Posts: 4,793
    stodge said:



    Apologies for the snip, Andy, and thanks for an excellent and coherent contribution.

    I think even if we had a proportional system we'd have a recognisable centre-right bloc and a recognisable centre-left bloc of parties. There would be smaller parties outside the blocs - some would join one bloc or another periodically and others would always sit beyond the two blocs.

    The core task for any new party is, as you say, to define what it is, what it stands for. In doing so, it will automatically lose a swathe of the electorate who will simply not agree with it. The lazier commentators will try and pigeon hole it in terms of "left" and "right" but hopefully it will be beyond that and be its own thing. In the same way seeing everything through the prism of A50 and EU withdrawal doesn't help.

    Trying to come up with solutions to the problems of the 2020s and beyond is a real challenge - we've scarcely got to grips with the big issues (housing, demographics) and bigger ones (Artificial Intelligence) are looming. The parties that invest time and effort in thinking now will reap the reward in the longer term.

    Ostensibly, the centre and centre-left has failed to respond intellectually to the events of 2008 when a decade of cheap food, cheap fuel, cheap money and rising asset values came to a violent end on their watch. Was it their fault ? To a point, yes, but the economic battlefield was abandoned to the extremes be it austerity or reckless borrowing. Neither of these work, we all know that, but plotting a clear economic path in the future is and remains a huge series of questions.

    I fully agree - with every paragraph, as it turns out.

    A proportional system would arguably outsource the choice of what values within each bloc are most valued at any given time by the public, which could help matters to a great degree - both for the public and, in the end, for the leaders of those blocs. The ability to start (and abandon) new parties representing other views would be greater as well.

    No party has presented (loudly, at any rate) solutions to the failures of the last decade. One of the big Two is continuing (more or less) with the previous paradigm, despite the disquiet of many; the other is returning to formerly discredited and failed solutions out of ideological preference. This leads anyone who wants a change, but not those reheated failures, to bang their heads on the table.

    The one slightly bright spark on the horizon is that most of the major politicians are finally recognising we need a new solution in the housing area - belatedly realising we need more built and at least flushing out the issues with our current planning system.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 38,517
    ydoethur said:

    Oh no Kimi/Ferrari.

    That was more than a bit of a disaster, wasn't it? Who's in charge of those lights?
    Evidently an AI. ;)
  • YBarddCwscYBarddCwsc Posts: 7,172

    malcolmg said:

    Nigelb said:

    malcolmg said:

    malcolmg said:

    FPT
    justin124 said:

    » show previous quotes
    I don't bet but I do not recall your prediction of 21 SNP losses in 2017.

    LOL, I offer a bet and the snowflake Tory hurls an insult. You cretinous cowardly half-witted dullard , go F**** yourself

    In which universe is Justin a Tory?
    He is an arse at best, needs to learn some social skills....
    I’m looking forward to the opening of malc’s finishing school for young gentlemen....

    Nigel, I will be sure to give you a large discount as you will only need minimal teaching.
    Evening Malc - would I get in free
    Surely Malc's finishing school will follow the principle of Alex Salmond's "rocks will melt in the Sun" before tuition fees are introduced.

    Everyone educated in Scotland and the rest of the EU * will get free tuition.

    (* except England, Wales & NI.)
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 66,729
    Lewis Hamilton came across as a right whinger there.
  • Andy_CookeAndy_Cooke Posts: 4,793
    slade said:

    Sandpit said:

    GIN1138 said:

    DM_Andy said:

    GIN1138 said:

    When's Dr Cable going to hand over the Lib-Dem leadership to Jo Swinson?

    The assumptions been when Jo's back from maternity leave so probably some time in 2019.

    Interesting. I think Lib-Dems will do better with Jo leading them. They need a fresh face.
    They need fresh ideas as well as the fresh face. Their only policy now seems to be opposing Brexit, and that will be redundant a year from now.
    In fact there is quite a lot of new thinking going on in the Lib Dems at the moment. There was a pamphlet published recently by Howarth and Greaves which attempts to set out the agenda.
    Unfortunately, no-one's listening.
    The Lib Dems arguably had the best economic manifesto last time around in terms of addressing the issues, being realistic and funded, and minimising the harm to the poorest/ being most progressive without relying on "squeezing the rich" somehow, but who was listening?

    The media view politics through the Brexit prism right now, and there are those in the Lib Dems who'll pander to that (as at least it gets visibility), which reinforces the "Lib Dems only care about Brexit" meme.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 66,729

    ydoethur said:

    Oh no Kimi/Ferrari.

    That was more than a bit of a disaster, wasn't it? Who's in charge of those lights?
    Evidently an AI. ;)
    Surely you mean an A not very I?
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 61,557
    ydoethur said:

    Lewis Hamilton came across as a right whinger there.

    To be fair, with a gap of over 10seconds, you are entirely dependent on information from the pit wall, and Mercedes aren’t doing a great job - not much hard info, and quite a lot of waffle.
  • At a rally outside Labour HQ's Maureen Lipman accuses Corbyn as being malign and demanding he steps aside.

    Not a good look - this is a real problem for the whole labour party
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 61,557
    OK, he’s a bit of a whinger.
    :smile:
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 66,729
    Nigelb said:

    ydoethur said:

    Lewis Hamilton came across as a right whinger there.

    To be fair, with a gap of over 10seconds, you are entirely dependent on information from the pit wall, and Mercedes aren’t doing a great job - not much hard info, and quite a lot of waffle.
    They told him to do 1.34s. What more does he want, a stopwatch?
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 66,729
    I think Bottas has got this, even if Vettel doesn't have a burst tyre or pit.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 61,557
    edited April 2018
    ydoethur said:

    Nigelb said:

    ydoethur said:

    Lewis Hamilton came across as a right whinger there.

    To be fair, with a gap of over 10seconds, you are entirely dependent on information from the pit wall, and Mercedes aren’t doing a great job - not much hard info, and quite a lot of waffle.
    They told him to do 1.34s. What more does he want, a stopwatch?
    As they clearly can’t hear what he’s saying, regular updates (target changes lap to lap).

    In any event, unless Vettel’s tyres die completely, it’s irrelevant at this point.

  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 61,557
    Nigelb said:

    ydoethur said:

    Nigelb said:

    ydoethur said:

    Lewis Hamilton came across as a right whinger there.

    To be fair, with a gap of over 10seconds, you are entirely dependent on information from the pit wall, and Mercedes aren’t doing a great job - not much hard info, and quite a lot of waffle.
    They told him to do 1.34s. What more does he want, a stopwatch?
    As they clearly can’t hear what he’s saying, regular updates (target changes lap to lap).

    In any event, unless Vettel’s tyres die completely, it’s irrelevant at this point.

    Only three laps - it’s far from certain.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 66,729
    Ferrari really got out-thought by Mercedes, didn't they? And that applies even if Vettel can somehow hang on.
  • TheWhiteRabbitTheWhiteRabbit Posts: 12,387
    Hungary, poll from today:

    Fidesz 43%, Jobbik 22% MSZP 13%

    Orban gets 140 of 199 seats.
  • Hungary (for anyone following!)

    https://www.mediaklikk.hu/m1-elo/ (TV)

    http://www.valasztas.hu/dyn/pv18/szavossz/hu/start.html (official results, but no English option visible :(

    https://24.hu/

    https://index.hu/

    https://dailynewshungary.com/

    Thanks & best wishes to all - and Alastair thanks for the recent article on Hungary.

    Cheers

    DC

  • TheWhiteRabbitTheWhiteRabbit Posts: 12,387
    Here is a Dutch poll in case you were wondering what indecision looks like:

    VVD-ALDE: 17% (+1)
    GL-G/EFA: 11%
    FvD-*: 10% (-1)
    CDA-EPP: 10%
    SP-LEFT: 9%
    D66-ALDE: 9%
    PVV-ENF: 8% (+1)
    PvdA-S&D: 7% (-1)
    PvdD-LEFT: 5%
    50+-*: 5%
    CU-ECR: 4%
    DENK-*: 3%
    SGP-ECR: 2%
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 66,729
    Well, that was an interesting finish to make up for what was mostly a procession.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 61,557
    Good effort from Vettel.
    A better overtaker than Bottas would have had him.
  • TheWhiteRabbitTheWhiteRabbit Posts: 12,387

    Hungary, poll from today:

    Fidesz 43%, Jobbik 22% MSZP 13%

    Orban gets 140 of 199 seats.

    The pollster reckons that's just 124 seats. Mine is a UNS, theirs clearly not.
  • TheWhiteRabbitTheWhiteRabbit Posts: 12,387

    Hungary (for anyone following!)

    https://www.mediaklikk.hu/m1-elo/ (TV)

    http://www.valasztas.hu/dyn/pv18/szavossz/hu/start.html (official results, but no English option visible :(

    https://24.hu/

    https://index.hu/

    https://dailynewshungary.com/

    Thanks & best wishes to all - and Alastair thanks for the recent article on Hungary.

    Cheers

    DC

    Thanks DC as always
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 38,517
    Well done to Torro Rosso and Honda. It's a long time since I've congratulated Honda ... :)
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 66,729

    Hungary, poll from today:

    Fidesz 43%, Jobbik 22% MSZP 13%

    Orban gets 140 of 199 seats.

    And people accuse our system of being disproportionate!
  • TheWhiteRabbitTheWhiteRabbit Posts: 12,387
    ydoethur said:

    Hungary, poll from today:

    Fidesz 43%, Jobbik 22% MSZP 13%

    Orban gets 140 of 199 seats.

    And people accuse our system of being disproportionate!
    I think UNS accentuates that, but they'd stil be heading for approx 66% of seats
  • AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 29,395
    edited April 2018
    ydoethur said:

    Hungary, poll from today:

    Fidesz 43%, Jobbik 22% MSZP 13%

    Orban gets 140 of 199 seats.

    And people accuse our system of being disproportionate!
    The LDs have 85% of seats on Sutton council with 36% of the vote. Just an example.

    http://www.andrewteale.me.uk/leap/results/2014/31/
  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 18,230
    edited April 2018
    Sean_F said:


    Why am I getting an advert for "Mature Women Who Always Say Yes" when I log in?

    a) you are a doity perv who has been surfing rudy sites you really shouldn't have

    OR

    b) you spend too long on PB, a site habituated by people who are older and wealthier than average and the algorithm thought you might be in need of a special cuddle by people who are willing to overlook your saggy bits in favor of a bulging wallet.

    OR

    c) your son has been using the laptop and it's really time you had that special talk with him.

    :)

  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 66,729
    edited April 2018
    AndyJS said:

    ydoethur said:

    Hungary, poll from today:

    Fidesz 43%, Jobbik 22% MSZP 13%

    Orban gets 140 of 199 seats.

    And people accuse our system of being disproportionate!
    The LDs have 85% of seats on Sutton council with 36% of the vote. Just an example.

    http://www.andrewteale.me.uk/leap/results/2014/31/
    OK, fair answer.

    We could also mention Manchester - Labour get 60-odd per cent of the vote, near as dammit 100% of the seats.
  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 18,230

    Hungary (for anyone following!)

    https://www.mediaklikk.hu/m1-elo/ (TV)

    http://www.valasztas.hu/dyn/pv18/szavossz/hu/start.html (official results, but no English option visible :(

    https://24.hu/

    https://index.hu/

    https://dailynewshungary.com/

    Thanks & best wishes to all - and Alastair thanks for the recent article on Hungary.

    Cheers

    DC

    As ever @DoubleCarpet, thank you for the focussed information. You are a good person.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 76,274

    At a rally outside Labour HQ's Maureen Lipman accuses Corbyn as being malign and demanding he steps aside.

    Not a good look - this is a real problem for the whole labour party

    Is it because Jezza didn't even get an ology....

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NK5-2fPyCjA
  • sladeslade Posts: 1,920

    slade said:

    Sandpit said:

    GIN1138 said:

    DM_Andy said:

    GIN1138 said:

    When's Dr Cable going to hand over the Lib-Dem leadership to Jo Swinson?

    The assumptions been when Jo's back from maternity leave so probably some time in 2019.

    Interesting. I think Lib-Dems will do better with Jo leading them. They need a fresh face.
    They need fresh ideas as well as the fresh face. Their only policy now seems to be opposing Brexit, and that will be redundant a year from now.
    In fact there is quite a lot of new thinking going on in the Lib Dems at the moment. There was a pamphlet published recently by Howarth and Greaves which attempts to set out the agenda.
    Unfortunately, no-one's listening.
    The Lib Dems arguably had the best economic manifesto last time around in terms of addressing the issues, being realistic and funded, and minimising the harm to the poorest/ being most progressive without relying on "squeezing the rich" somehow, but who was listening?

    The media view politics through the Brexit prism right now, and there are those in the Lib Dems who'll pander to that (as at least it gets visibility), which reinforces the "Lib Dems only care about Brexit" meme.
    Unfortunately that is probably true. The debate is within the party at the moment and will probably be quite bloody. But the key themes are likely to centre around individual rights and freedoms, democratic participation, economic and social justice, internationalism, and institutional reform. The pamphlet can be downloaded at liberatormagazine.org.uk.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 91,392

    Here is a Dutch poll in case you were wondering what indecision looks like:

    VVD-ALDE: 17% (+1)
    GL-G/EFA: 11%
    FvD-*: 10% (-1)
    CDA-EPP: 10%
    SP-LEFT: 9%
    D66-ALDE: 9%
    PVV-ENF: 8% (+1)
    PvdA-S&D: 7% (-1)
    PvdD-LEFT: 5%
    50+-*: 5%
    CU-ECR: 4%
    DENK-*: 3%
    SGP-ECR: 2%

    My god - how does government come from such chaos?
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 91,392
    ydoethur said:

    Lewis Hamilton came across as a right whinger there.

    So out of character for him...
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 76,274
    kle4 said:

    Here is a Dutch poll in case you were wondering what indecision looks like:

    VVD-ALDE: 17% (+1)
    GL-G/EFA: 11%
    FvD-*: 10% (-1)
    CDA-EPP: 10%
    SP-LEFT: 9%
    D66-ALDE: 9%
    PVV-ENF: 8% (+1)
    PvdA-S&D: 7% (-1)
    PvdD-LEFT: 5%
    50+-*: 5%
    CU-ECR: 4%
    DENK-*: 3%
    SGP-ECR: 2%

    My god - how does government come from such chaos?
    I bet the tv debates are fun!
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 49,614

    Well done to Torro Rosso and Honda. It's a long time since I've congratulated Honda ... :)

    Indeed. That was a good race.
  • TheWhiteRabbitTheWhiteRabbit Posts: 12,387
    Turnout up about 8pp since 2014. Not clear who that helps. Turnout still highest in urban (lefty) areas, but up more in rural (righty) areas.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 91,392



    http://www.valasztas.hu/dyn/pv18/szavossz/hu/start.html (official results, but no English option visible :(


    What idiot did not consider that Hungarian parliamentary elections would not be of interest to the english speaking world? Hopefully they sort that out in time for the Hungarian local elections.

  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 49,614
    slade said:

    slade said:

    Sandpit said:

    GIN1138 said:

    DM_Andy said:

    GIN1138 said:

    When's Dr Cable going to hand over the Lib-Dem leadership to Jo Swinson?

    The assumptions been when Jo's back from maternity leave so probably some time in 2019.

    Interesting. I think Lib-Dems will do better with Jo leading them. They need a fresh face.
    They need fresh ideas as well as the fresh face. Their only policy now seems to be opposing Brexit, and that will be redundant a year from now.
    In fact there is quite a lot of new thinking going on in the Lib Dems at the moment. There was a pamphlet published recently by Howarth and Greaves which attempts to set out the agenda.
    Unfortunately, no-one's listening.
    The Lib Dems arguably had the best economic manifesto last time around in terms of addressing the issues, being realistic and funded, and minimising the harm to the poorest/ being most progressive without relying on "squeezing the rich" somehow, but who was listening?

    The media view politics through the Brexit prism right now, and there are those in the Lib Dems who'll pander to that (as at least it gets visibility), which reinforces the "Lib Dems only care about Brexit" meme.
    Unfortunately that is probably true. The debate is within the party at the moment and will probably be quite bloody. But the key themes are likely to centre around individual rights and freedoms, democratic participation, economic and social justice, internationalism, and institutional reform. The pamphlet can be downloaded at liberatormagazine.org.uk.
    Telling people to download a pamphlet isn’t a substitute for getting people all over the media to articulate the party’s vision beyond Brexit.
  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 18,230
    kle4 said:

    Here is a Dutch poll in case you were wondering what indecision looks like:

    VVD-ALDE: 17% (+1)
    GL-G/EFA: 11%
    FvD-*: 10% (-1)
    CDA-EPP: 10%
    SP-LEFT: 9%
    D66-ALDE: 9%
    PVV-ENF: 8% (+1)
    PvdA-S&D: 7% (-1)
    PvdD-LEFT: 5%
    50+-*: 5%
    CU-ECR: 4%
    DENK-*: 3%
    SGP-ECR: 2%

    My god - how does government come from such chaos?
    They argue for a bit, form a coalition, get some stuff done, then have another election. They seem to manage.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 66,729
    kle4 said:

    ydoethur said:

    Lewis Hamilton came across as a right whinger there.

    So out of character for him...
    Well, after the jet he didn't have much hope of being a left whinger...
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 25,164
    viewcode said:

    kle4 said:

    Here is a Dutch poll in case you were wondering what indecision looks like:

    VVD-ALDE: 17% (+1)
    GL-G/EFA: 11%
    FvD-*: 10% (-1)
    CDA-EPP: 10%
    SP-LEFT: 9%
    D66-ALDE: 9%
    PVV-ENF: 8% (+1)
    PvdA-S&D: 7% (-1)
    PvdD-LEFT: 5%
    50+-*: 5%
    CU-ECR: 4%
    DENK-*: 3%
    SGP-ECR: 2%

    My god - how does government come from such chaos?
    They argue for a bit, form a coalition, get some stuff done, then have another election. They seem to manage.
    Remember, there's no government like no government.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 91,392

    Panic and fury? This is a reach from Hodges.
    It's the same reaction we've seen even from the sensible, in that because sometimes people cover their fear with bravado and and dismissal, if you see that dismissal it must mean panic. I don't think they are. Frankly I don't know for certain Labour would be hardest hit by a successful new party.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 76,274
    ydoethur said:

    kle4 said:

    ydoethur said:

    Lewis Hamilton came across as a right whinger there.

    So out of character for him...
    Well, after the jet he didn't have much hope of being a left whinger...
    Not sure he is much of a fan of higher income tax either.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 91,392



    That's no formula for any party, and it's a misdiagnosis anyway. It's just disliking being given only two choices, (or only one choice if you decide the other is unacceptable). This leads to either reluctant voting for something you don't really want, or weighing up two things you dislike to choose which one you least despise.

    Unsurprisingly, this leads to people believing neither of those two choices actually represent them, and leads to disillusionment with politics and politicians and, occasionally, a call for an alternative. From about 1980 to 2010, the Lib Dems harnessed that discontent, but lost it when they accepted some real power.

    People even go further and diagnose the political system, which promotes only two choices.

    I think it's further than that. There are two views on democratic government: "adversarial" and "consensual", and those who hold either view often find the other completely foreign to their thinking.

    "Adversarial" is majoritarian: run an election, whichever choice gets more votes than any other, "wins", and puts its views into practice untramelled by anyone else. Everyone who loses has to suck it up; they'll get another chance soon enough. As it's rare for any choice to get a proper majority (over 50% of votes), even with the polarisation you see in majoritarian electoral systems, most people feel unrepresented to a significant degree - even many of those who voted for "the winner", as they feel almost coerced into voting for a less-bad choice. Advocates say "what you see is what you get" and feel it's faster to react. And as party members tend to have the strongest ideological support for any party, they'll least like the idea of compromising.

    "Consensual" is proportional: run an election, and build a government from compromise between the views in an attempt to represent the views of as many as possible. Doesn't always work that way, but does tend to end up with people feeling better represented. Advocates point out that people can vote more "honestly" for their own views, and governments represent more of the population and do so better. On the other hand, you acn argue that no-one gets exactly what they voted for (a counter to that is that the Government's supposed to represent everyone, not just those who voted for Party X).

    You can get that wider choice in the latter forms of Government, and I think that wider choice is what's being wanted. It can't be provided by any one party, whether a new one, the Lib Dems, or the existing Big Two.

    Without a different electoral system and the associated view becoming embedded, this will continue to happen, and we'll continue to get resentment and polarisation.

    An interesting post, thank you.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 91,392
    viewcode said:

    kle4 said:

    Here is a Dutch poll in case you were wondering what indecision looks like:

    VVD-ALDE: 17% (+1)
    GL-G/EFA: 11%
    FvD-*: 10% (-1)
    CDA-EPP: 10%
    SP-LEFT: 9%
    D66-ALDE: 9%
    PVV-ENF: 8% (+1)
    PvdA-S&D: 7% (-1)
    PvdD-LEFT: 5%
    50+-*: 5%
    CU-ECR: 4%
    DENK-*: 3%
    SGP-ECR: 2%

    My god - how does government come from such chaos?
    They argue for a bit, form a coalition, get some stuff done, then have another election. They seem to manage.
    Oh I know it works, but it strikes me that I'm in favour of coalitions generally, and I still take a step back in shock when I see the most popular party can only get 17%

    Plus all the acronyms boggle my little brain.
  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 18,230
    edited April 2018

    At a rally outside Labour HQ's Maureen Lipman accuses Corbyn as being malign and demanding he steps aside.

    I read that as "...and demanding he steps outside". Then I had an image of Maureen & Corbyn having a scrap.

    Pause.

    OK, I'd pay to see that.

    :)

  • TheWhiteRabbitTheWhiteRabbit Posts: 12,387
    edited April 2018
    The first electoral test for a party called Momentum*

    *about all they have in common
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 76,274
    A rising star in the Conservative Party has apologised after she admitted she hacked a Labour MP's website and altered its content.

    Kemi Badenoch, the hotly tipped MP for Saffron Walden, made the confession in a video obtained by The Mail On Sunday.

    Asked what is the naughtiest she's ever done, the 38-year-old replied: "About 10 years ago I hacked into a Labour MP's website and I changed all the stuff in there to say nice things about Tories."

    https://news.sky.com/story/tory-vice-chair-kemi-badenoch-admits-hacking-labour-mps-website-11323056
  • GIN1138GIN1138 Posts: 20,695
    edited April 2018
    malcolmg said:

    You cretinous cowardly half-witted dullard , go F**** yourself

    Evening Malc... :D
  • FregglesFreggles Posts: 3,486

    Looks like we need a Fascist Party to represent these poor souls.
    Isn't that where most Labour Leavers are?
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 91,392
    edited April 2018
    malcolmg said:

    malcolmg said:

    FPT
    justin124 said:

    » show previous quotes
    I don't bet but I do not recall your prediction of 21 SNP losses in 2017.

    LOL, I offer a bet and the snowflake Tory hurls an insult. You cretinous cowardly half-witted dullard , go F**** yourself

    In which universe is Justin a Tory?
    PS: I could not think of a bigger insult than Tory
    Well the word did famously start out as an insult after all.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 43,592
    kle4 said:

    Panic and fury? This is a reach from Hodges.
    It's the same reaction we've seen even from the sensible, in that because sometimes people cover their fear with bravado and and dismissal, if you see that dismissal it must mean panic. I don't think they are. Frankly I don't know for certain Labour would be hardest hit by a successful new party.
    In Labour mythology the SDP was a body blow to the party, that let Thatcher rule FOREVER!!!!! - if only that hadn't happened etc etc....
  • GIN1138GIN1138 Posts: 20,695
    edited April 2018
    Is it me it does it seem like certain State's have been much more confident in using chemical weapons over the past few years? :(
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 38,517

    I hate Ed Miliband so much.

    http s://twitter.com/alextomo/status/983003810808385536

    Although I differ from him politically, ed Miliabnd came across as a generally decent guy (as do many politicians outside of politics). His conscience must be really squirming over the way he mucked things up.
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 37,603
    Sandpit said:

    Well done to Torro Rosso and Honda. It's a long time since I've congratulated Honda ... :)

    Indeed. That was a good race.
    I think Gasly deserves a lot of the credit. Hartley was down in 14th in the same car.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 43,592
    kle4 said:

    Here is a Dutch poll in case you were wondering what indecision looks like:

    VVD-ALDE: 17% (+1)
    GL-G/EFA: 11%
    FvD-*: 10% (-1)
    CDA-EPP: 10%
    SP-LEFT: 9%
    D66-ALDE: 9%
    PVV-ENF: 8% (+1)
    PvdA-S&D: 7% (-1)
    PvdD-LEFT: 5%
    50+-*: 5%
    CU-ECR: 4%
    DENK-*: 3%
    SGP-ECR: 2%

    My god - how does government come from such chaos?
    Remember that 90% of politicians are actually good mates when the cameras are not around. Then factor in, that what you are seeing is the parts that make up big parties in other countries - think externalising the party coalition building.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 49,614
    GIN1138 said:

    Is it me it does it seem like certain State's have been much more confident in using chemical weapons over the past few years? :(
    Sadly so, time for a co-ordinated international action in Syria now.

    I can’t imagine Trump’s new security advisor John Bolton being too shy about what’s required.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 43,592
    GIN1138 said:

    Is it me it does it seem like certain State's have been much more confident in using chemical weapons over the past few years? :(
    No prizes for guessing why.

    Bit like how Russia started murdering dissidents/exiles abroad in the 1920s and carried on till the present day.... never suffered a reaction beyond a few diplomats getting kicked out and some bad press - why would they think they shouldn't do it now?
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 49,614

    I hate Ed Miliband so much.

    http s://twitter.com/alextomo/status/983003810808385536

    Although I differ from him politically, ed Miliabnd came across as a generally decent guy (as do many politicians outside of politics). His conscience must be really squirming over the way he mucked things up.
    He’s still an MP, he has a chance to redeem himself by speaking out now.
  • Sandpit said:

    GIN1138 said:

    Is it me it does it seem like certain State's have been much more confident in using chemical weapons over the past few years? :(
    Sadly so, time for a co-ordinated international action in Syria now.

    I can’t imagine Trump’s new security advisor John Bolton being too shy about what’s required.
    I think Bolton has a lot to do with backing the UK v Russia and all the expulsions together with the action against Putin's cronies
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 38,517
    Sandpit said:

    GIN1138 said:

    Is it me it does it seem like certain State's have been much more confident in using chemical weapons over the past few years? :(
    Sadly so, time for a co-ordinated international action in Syria now.

    (Snip)
    It's too late. The Russians, Iran and Assad have won (in that order). The people, and especially the Kurds, have lost. The UN cannot do anything to bring Assad to book, and he's free to settle a lot of scores.

    (That's not to say that the fighting is over; it isn't. Just that it's hard to see a way that evil triumvirate can lose. The question then becomes how much of his country Assad wants to regain full control of, both from his enemies and his helpers.)

    There was a time for proper action, and that was long ago.
  • dyingswandyingswan Posts: 189
    Did Maureen Lipman suggest at the demo today that Corbyn had an ology? In his case it would be - toxic-ology.
  • stodgestodge Posts: 12,741

    I hate Ed Miliband so much.

    30 Conservative MPs voted against the Government (as did nine LDs). If there's "hate" to go round, start there.

    Then you can explain why Cameron misread the public mood and the mood in his own party so badly.

  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 38,517

    GIN1138 said:

    Is it me it does it seem like certain State's have been much more confident in using chemical weapons over the past few years? :(
    No prizes for guessing why.

    (Snip)
    If I may be as bold: I warned you, you Assad-backing f**kers. I warned you that if we let Assad get away with using these weapons, that the conventions were not worth the paper they were written on, and we were all at risk. And so, sadly, it has come to pass.
  • TheWhiteRabbitTheWhiteRabbit Posts: 12,387
    4m
    Hungary: Biggest private television, RTL KLUB discloses voice recording about vote buying and transport of voters by Orban's government party Fidesz (EPP) in the city of Pécs, South West Hungary. #Valasztas2018 #HungaryElection2018

    Results not expected yet as many voters are still in queues...
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 66,729

    4m
    Hungary: Biggest private television, RTL KLUB discloses voice recording about vote buying and transport of voters by Orban's government party Fidesz (EPP) in the city of Pécs, South West Hungary. #Valasztas2018 #HungaryElection2018

    Results not expected yet as many voters are still in queues...

    If that story is true, they'll not only be in queues, some at least will be seeking answers.
  • stodge said:

    I hate Ed Miliband so much.

    30 Conservative MPs voted against the Government (as did nine LDs). If there's "hate" to go round, start there.

    Then you can explain why Cameron misread the public mood and the mood in his own party so badly.

    Jim Murphy explained why.

    Ed Miliband told Dave he'd back the motion.

    Then pretty much at the last moment he stabbed Cameron in the back like he did his brother.

    Dave wasn't expecting to have to work his rebels.

    Ed played student politics, as the aforementioned Mr Murphy put it

    'Labour voted against the Government while not expecting to win.'

    In terms of shits, Ed Miliband is up there with Mark Reckless.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 66,729
    stodge said:

    I hate Ed Miliband so much.

    30 Conservative MPs voted against the Government (as did nine LDs). If there's "hate" to go round, start there.

    Then you can explain why Cameron misread the public mood and the mood in his own party so badly.

    I could be wrong, but it wasn't it a free vote (or at least, not heavily whipped) for Coalition MPs, while Labour were whipped to oppose it?

    I thought that was the key difference.
  • YorkcityYorkcity Posts: 4,382

    stodge said:

    I hate Ed Miliband so much.

    30 Conservative MPs voted against the Government (as did nine LDs). If there's "hate" to go round, start there.

    Then you can explain why Cameron misread the public mood and the mood in his own party so badly.

    Jim Murphy explained why.

    Ed Miliband told Dave he'd back the motion.

    Then pretty much at the last moment he stabbed Cameron in the back like he did his brother.

    Dave wasn't expecting to have to work his rebels.

    Ed played student politics, as the aforementioned Mr Murphy put it

    'Labour voted against the Government while not expecting to win.'

    In terms of shits, Ed Miliband is up there with Mark Reckless.
    Obama needed the Loto in the U K ?
  • Yorkcity said:

    stodge said:

    I hate Ed Miliband so much.

    30 Conservative MPs voted against the Government (as did nine LDs). If there's "hate" to go round, start there.

    Then you can explain why Cameron misread the public mood and the mood in his own party so badly.

    Jim Murphy explained why.

    Ed Miliband told Dave he'd back the motion.

    Then pretty much at the last moment he stabbed Cameron in the back like he did his brother.

    Dave wasn't expecting to have to work his rebels.

    Ed played student politics, as the aforementioned Mr Murphy put it

    'Labour voted against the Government while not expecting to win.'

    In terms of shits, Ed Miliband is up there with Mark Reckless.
    Obama needed the Loto in the U K ?
    Yes, because of the way Congress works when it comes to war.

    David Petraeus said the vote changed the dynamic in America.
  • YorkcityYorkcity Posts: 4,382
    dyingswan said:

    Did Maureen Lipman suggest at the demo today that Corbyn had an ology? In his case it would be - toxic-ology.

    She said she was a Blairite and Jez was lying about his seat on the train .
  • TheWhiteRabbitTheWhiteRabbit Posts: 12,387
    Did I miss the part where Soros became some sort of divine being? It is a very strange form of antisemticism to focus so much on one guy
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 38,517
    stodge said:

    I hate Ed Miliband so much.

    30 Conservative MPs voted against the Government (as did nine LDs). If there's "hate" to go round, start there.

    Then you can explain why Cameron misread the public mood and the mood in his own party so badly.
    Don't divert blame. Ask yourself how your party - a party with a long and distinguished history - ended up backing a mass-murdering tyrant and endorsing the use of chemical weapons. for that is exactly what Labour did in that vote.

    You f**kers.

    I can understand not wanting blood on your hands, especially after Iraq. But what we saw over Syria, and since with MH17 and now Salisbury, are attempts to turn a blind eye to wrongdoing, to blame everyone else - including ourselves - rather than the real culprits.

    In the process, you have blood on your hands. Look at the pictures and weep over what you've done, you fools.

    You shi**ing tragicomic fools.
  • TheWhiteRabbitTheWhiteRabbit Posts: 12,387
    ydoethur said:

    4m
    Hungary: Biggest private television, RTL KLUB discloses voice recording about vote buying and transport of voters by Orban's government party Fidesz (EPP) in the city of Pécs, South West Hungary. #Valasztas2018 #HungaryElection2018

    Results not expected yet as many voters are still in queues...

    If that story is true, they'll not only be in queues, some at least will be seeking answers.
    Other dirty tricks are obviously Fidesz' doing. For example some of the propoganda put out in the name of the state.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 66,729
    Yorkcity said:

    dyingswan said:

    Did Maureen Lipman suggest at the demo today that Corbyn had an ology? In his case it would be - toxic-ology.

    She said she was a Blairite and Jez was lying about his seat on the train .
    Both of which are simple statements of fact. Why would they be in any way controversial?
  • YorkcityYorkcity Posts: 4,382

    Yorkcity said:

    stodge said:

    I hate Ed Miliband so much.

    30 Conservative MPs voted against the Government (as did nine LDs). If there's "hate" to go round, start there.

    Then you can explain why Cameron misread the public mood and the mood in his own party so badly.

    Jim Murphy explained why.

    Ed Miliband told Dave he'd back the motion.

    Then pretty much at the last moment he stabbed Cameron in the back like he did his brother.

    Dave wasn't expecting to have to work his rebels.

    Ed played student politics, as the aforementioned Mr Murphy put it

    'Labour voted against the Government while not expecting to win.'

    In terms of shits, Ed Miliband is up there with Mark Reckless.
    Obama needed the Loto in the U K ?
    Yes, because of the way Congress works when it comes to war.

    David Petraeus said the vote changed the dynamic in America.
    To be honest TSe , Obama if he wanted could have acted.The current president has , without the need of UK agreement.
  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 18,230
    Sandpit said:

    Sadly so, time for a co-ordinated international action in Syria now. (Snip)

    There is a co-ordinated international action in Syria now. The nations in question are Russia, Syria, Iran & Iraq. We had an opportunity to join in but we had a debate, bottled it, and thought spending decades navel-gazing on Brexit was better than exerting power on the international stage.
  • YorkcityYorkcity Posts: 4,382
    ydoethur said:

    Yorkcity said:

    dyingswan said:

    Did Maureen Lipman suggest at the demo today that Corbyn had an ology? In his case it would be - toxic-ology.

    She said she was a Blairite and Jez was lying about his seat on the train .
    Both of which are simple statements of fact. Why would they be in any way controversial?
    Did I say they was ? The train issue was disputed .
  • stodgestodge Posts: 12,741


    Don't divert blame. Ask yourself how your party - a party with a long and distinguished history - ended up backing a mass-murdering tyrant and endorsing the use of chemical weapons. for that is exactly what Labour did in that vote.

    You f**kers.

    I can understand not wanting blood on your hands, especially after Iraq. But what we saw over Syria, and since with MH17 and now Salisbury, are attempts to turn a blind eye to wrongdoing, to blame everyone else - including ourselves - rather than the real culprits.

    In the process, you have blood on your hands. Look at the pictures and weep over what you've done, you fools.

    You shi**ing tragicomic fools.

    I wasn't aware I was a member of the Labour Party but then accuracy and common sense aren't high on your list of priorities either.

    To re-iterate 30 Conservatives and LD MPs joined Labour in the No lobby - my point is TSE's criticism of Ed M on this was unfair - there's much more blame to throw around.

    We chose not to intervene in Syria because we chose to intervene in Iraq and in 2013, at that time, the mood was against intervening in what seemed like other people's internal conflicts.

    Arguably it was the biggest foreign policy surrender since Munich but that's not how it was seen at the time by many.
  • TheWhiteRabbitTheWhiteRabbit Posts: 12,387

    Europe Elects @EuropeElects
    1m
    Hungary: Taktikaiszavazas seat estimation (no exit poll):

    Fidesz/KDNP-EPP: 103
    Jobbik-NI: 42
    MSZP/P-S&D/G/EFA: 27
    DK-S&D: 15
    LMP-G/EFA: 8
    Independent: 2
    Együtt-*: 2

    would imply a sub 40% share for Fidesz... maybe that's why the dirty tricks
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 55,007

    stodge said:

    I hate Ed Miliband so much.

    30 Conservative MPs voted against the Government (as did nine LDs). If there's "hate" to go round, start there.

    Then you can explain why Cameron misread the public mood and the mood in his own party so badly.
    Don't divert blame. Ask yourself how your party - a party with a long and distinguished history - ended up backing a mass-murdering tyrant and endorsing the use of chemical weapons. for that is exactly what Labour did in that vote.

    You f**kers.

    I can understand not wanting blood on your hands, especially after Iraq. But what we saw over Syria, and since with MH17 and now Salisbury, are attempts to turn a blind eye to wrongdoing, to blame everyone else - including ourselves - rather than the real culprits.

    In the process, you have blood on your hands. Look at the pictures and weep over what you've done, you fools.

    You shi**ing tragicomic fools.
    To be fair, Stodge is a Lib Dem.

    I agree the equivocation in both the UK and US back in 2013 effectively re-legitimised the use of chemical weapons by calculating despots. It will now be far harder to contain than it would have been had we been decisive back then.

    Non-intervention eventually carries an even heavier price tag than intervention.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 53,766
    AndyJS said:

    "Immigration has put up house prices by 20% over the past 25 years and Britain’s post-Brexit border rules must take account of demand for affordable homes, the new housing minister has declared."

    "Housing Minister Dominic Raab told The Sunday Times that: “Based on the ONS data, the advice to me from the department is that in the last 25 years we have seen immigration put house prices up by something like 20%.”


    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/news/tory-housing-minister-dominic-raab-warns-that-immigration-has-pushed-up-house-prices-n27b7lq8j

    I'd love to see his workings, because my investigations show this is a *very* complex area.

    There's also an incredibly difficult path that any government must tread. If they succeed in making homes 20% more affordable, then they put the last seven years of house purchasers into negative equity, and reduce the wealth effect for all home owners. (A lower wealth effect almost certainly results in a higher savings rate as householders compensate for having smaller savings embedded in their house. But a higher savings rate also means that consumer spending falls, potentially triggering a recession.)
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 66,729
    Yorkcity said:

    ydoethur said:

    Yorkcity said:

    dyingswan said:

    Did Maureen Lipman suggest at the demo today that Corbyn had an ology? In his case it would be - toxic-ology.

    She said she was a Blairite and Jez was lying about his seat on the train .
    Both of which are simple statements of fact. Why would they be in any way controversial?
    Did I say they was [sic]? The train issue was disputed .
    There are some people who will dispute anything. If you will find people who say Richard III didn't murder his nephews, you are going to find people who claim Corbyn was telling the truth even when we have clear video evidence that he wasn't.

    I was curious therefore that you mentioned it.
  • RhubarbRhubarb Posts: 359

    Did I miss the part where Soros became some sort of divine being? It is a very strange form of antisemticism to focus so much on one guy

    Apparently Orban used to work for Soros' foundation and then took some funding for a H.E. project. You do have to wonder what went on between them and how it came to be so personal.
  • YorkcityYorkcity Posts: 4,382

    stodge said:

    I hate Ed Miliband so much.

    30 Conservative MPs voted against the Government (as did nine LDs). If there's "hate" to go round, start there.

    Then you can explain why Cameron misread the public mood and the mood in his own party so badly.
    Don't divert blame. Ask yourself how your party - a party with a long and distinguished history - ended up backing a mass-murdering tyrant and endorsing the use of chemical weapons. for that is exactly what Labour did in that vote.

    You f**kers.

    I can understand not wanting blood on your hands, especially after Iraq. But what we saw over Syria, and since with MH17 and now Salisbury, are attempts to turn a blind eye to wrongdoing, to blame everyone else - including ourselves - rather than the real culprits.

    In the process, you have blood on your hands. Look at the pictures and weep over what you've done, you fools.

    You shi**ing tragicomic fools.
    To be fair, Stodge is a Lib Dem.

    I agree the equivocation in both the UK and US back in 2013 effectively re-legitimised the use of chemical weapons by calculating despots. It will now be far harder to contain than it would have been had we been decisive back then.

    Non-intervention eventually carries an even heavier price tag than intervention.
    To be honest , no one knew how we could intervene successfully .The free Syrian moderates people did not believe in.
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 25,164
    rcs1000 said:

    AndyJS said:

    "Immigration has put up house prices by 20% over the past 25 years and Britain’s post-Brexit border rules must take account of demand for affordable homes, the new housing minister has declared."

    "Housing Minister Dominic Raab told The Sunday Times that: “Based on the ONS data, the advice to me from the department is that in the last 25 years we have seen immigration put house prices up by something like 20%.”


    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/news/tory-housing-minister-dominic-raab-warns-that-immigration-has-pushed-up-house-prices-n27b7lq8j

    I'd love to see his workings, because my investigations show this is a *very* complex area.

    There's also an incredibly difficult path that any government must tread. If they succeed in making homes 20% more affordable, then they put the last seven years of house purchasers into negative equity, and reduce the wealth effect for all home owners. (A lower wealth effect almost certainly results in a higher savings rate as householders compensate for having smaller savings embedded in their house. But a higher savings rate also means that consumer spending falls, potentially triggering a recession.)
    I really wish a journo would ask our leading politicians, "would you welcome a 20% fall in house prices?"
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826
    SeanT said:

    Assad is a murdering bastard, and Putin an autocratig thug, etc etc but in what way would bombing Assad's Syrian forces, and thus enabling jihadists like ISIS to win that war, have benefited us? Or indeed Syrians?

    There is no good outcome in Syria. The least worst is Assad winning, at least that means a chance of stability, under a ruthless dictatorship. That is the tragic truth of the matter.
    ISIS were an almost unheard of fringe group at the time we chose to turn a blind eye to Assad's usage of chemical weapons. He was also at the brink of losing the war to the more mainstream rebels which is why he resorted to using them. With our backing the more mainstream rebels would have won.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 53,766
    @Andy_Cooke: an excellent analysis on the difference between consensual and adversarial political systems.

    I wish there were a perfect electoral/political system, but really, one is choosing which problems one is happy with. I think the adversarial, typically FPTP, system results in substantial minorities (such as Eurosceptics in the UK) being almost completely ignored for decades. On the other hand, the consensual system results in no government or party being able to be held to manifesto promises.
  • murali_smurali_s Posts: 3,037
    edited April 2018
    SeanT said:

    This would seem to support my Plymouth minicab anecdote. Swing voters are coming round to the idea of Theresa May - "doing her best", "she's alright", "compared to the others she seems OK".

    Corbyn is reviled.

    Unless Brexit is a nuclear explosion, then she now has a very good chance of lasting until 2022. By which time, one hopes, she will have improved her campaigning skills, and she will - one hopes - still be facing a 70-something Jezbollah Corbyn Esq.

    The conservatives are a broken flush. Robbing from the poor and giving to the rich is no longer cool. Wealth and income inequality in the UK has reached ridiculous levels. This fact alone will almost certainly mean that Corbyn or equivalent will be our next PM.

    Next month we go to the polls here in London. The Tories will be skewered in our sophisticated progressive city.
  • YorkcityYorkcity Posts: 4,382
    Yes she made that clear.
  • Ishmael_ZIshmael_Z Posts: 8,981

    Did I miss the part where Soros became some sort of divine being? It is a very strange form of antisemticism to focus so much on one guy

    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/jun/22/hungary-viktor-orban-george-soros

    In addition (though I have no reason to think Orban thinks this) if you want evidence that the fate of nations is decided by rootless cosmopolitan billionaire jews, the claim that Soros personally forced the UK out of the ERM is about as good as it gets.
  • Stark_DawningStark_Dawning Posts: 9,232
    SeanT said:

    This would seem to support my Plymouth minicab anecdote. Swing voters are coming round to the idea of Theresa May - "doing her best", "she's alright", "compared to the others she seems OK".

    Corbyn is reviled.

    Unless Brexit is a nuclear explosion, then she now has a very good chance of lasting until 2022. By which time, one hopes, she will have improved her campaigning skills, and she will - one hopes - still be facing a 70-something Jezbollah Corbyn Esq.

    Absolutely! Theresa isn't going anywhere; so much has been clear for a while. In fact, I can't see anything in her past or present to make believe that she's the type of politician to shuffle off the stage with good grace. She makes Thatcher look positively indifferent about holding on to high office. They'll have to prise her out, but there's no one remotely capable of doing so.
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826
    tlg86 said:

    rcs1000 said:

    AndyJS said:

    "Immigration has put up house prices by 20% over the past 25 years and Britain’s post-Brexit border rules must take account of demand for affordable homes, the new housing minister has declared."

    "Housing Minister Dominic Raab told The Sunday Times that: “Based on the ONS data, the advice to me from the department is that in the last 25 years we have seen immigration put house prices up by something like 20%.”


    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/news/tory-housing-minister-dominic-raab-warns-that-immigration-has-pushed-up-house-prices-n27b7lq8j

    I'd love to see his workings, because my investigations show this is a *very* complex area.

    There's also an incredibly difficult path that any government must tread. If they succeed in making homes 20% more affordable, then they put the last seven years of house purchasers into negative equity, and reduce the wealth effect for all home owners. (A lower wealth effect almost certainly results in a higher savings rate as householders compensate for having smaller savings embedded in their house. But a higher savings rate also means that consumer spending falls, potentially triggering a recession.)
    I really wish a journo would ask our leading politicians, "would you welcome a 20% fall in house prices?"
    That's not the alternative. I'm a fan of migration and think we need to tear up the green belt regulations and liberate house building as a solution. However if you're against that and start restricting migration from here that won't drop house prices by 20% as those who have arrived and required a home are still going to be here.

    In order for prices to drop we'd need net emigration. The alternatives are that prices roughly stabilise where they are or continue to escalate.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 49,614
    murali_s said:

    SeanT said:

    This would seem to support my Plymouth minicab anecdote. Swing voters are coming round to the idea of Theresa May - "doing her best", "she's alright", "compared to the others she seems OK".

    Corbyn is reviled.

    Unless Brexit is a nuclear explosion, then she now has a very good chance of lasting until 2022. By which time, one hopes, she will have improved her campaigning skills, and she will - one hopes - still be facing a 70-something Jezbollah Corbyn Esq.

    The conservatives are a broken flush. Robbing from the poor and giving to the rich is no longer cool. Wealth and income inequality in the UK has reached ridiculous levels. This fact alone will almost certainly mean that Corbyn or equivalent will be our next PM.
    Given that the minimum wage, living wage and personal allowance have all just risen, those on the lower incomes are considerably better off than they were. The top 10% and top 1% are paying more income taxes than ever before.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 38,517
    SeanT said:

    Assad is a murdering bastard, and Putin an autocratig thug, etc etc but in what way would bombing Assad's Syrian forces, and thus enabling jihadists like ISIS to win that war, have benefited us? Or indeed Syrians?

    There is no good outcome in Syria. The least worst is Assad winning, at least that means a chance of stability, under a ruthless dictatorship. That is the tragic truth of the matter.
    It would have sent a message that if you use chemical or biological weapons, you would gain no advantage, and in fact it would cost you. Bloody his nose to the extent that he dare not use them again.

    Instead, we just gave the green light for nasty regimes all over the world to work on such weapons, knowing after many events (e.g. Halubja et al) that they would not get punished for their use. And they're much easier to develop - and in most case weaponise - than nukes.

    And hence we see Salisbury.
This discussion has been closed.