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politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » How Labour need to stop worrying and learn to love the bomb

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  • Options
    volcanopetevolcanopete Posts: 2,078
    Be ahead of the game.China will be world leader in 5 years' time,yet no-one,not even Mr Corbyn,can see it,it's China that must be heard and must not be ignored.It is v foolish and against UK's interest not to.
  • Options
    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,992
    edited April 2018
    TOPPING said:

    HYUFD said:

    TOPPING said:

    HYUFD said:

    Foxy said:

    HYUFD said:

    Foxy said:

    HYUFD said:

    malcolmg said:

    HYUFD said:

    FF43 said:

    TOPPING said:

    Good article.

    Couple of issues, tho.

    First, given the amingly obvious to the likes of you and me, we as a nation are not great at accepting cold hard truths in any policy area.

    Ain't that so? In the case of Brexit we actually voted for muddle, when things were more sorted before. Maybe Britain is just

    For those concerned about loss of sovereignty or d is Britain mediocre
    we would struggle to beat a carpet nowadays.
    Arguably the last time we lost a War was the US War of Independence buthout being alongside NATO or the U.N. and/or the USA
    We have lost quite a few since then!

    Pehaps most recently we left Basra and Helmand much as the US leut often it means "Out of their depth".
    No that is not comparable at all.

    In Vietnam the US left with Saigon in the hands of the Communist North Vietnamese. We have left Iraq in the hands of the elected Iraqi government not Saddam and the Baath Party.

    She's we beat Nasser it was just US economic policy forced us to withdraw, Palestine and Aden were just products of decolonisatipn not military defeats. Northern Ireland remains part of the UK and was a series of terrorist atrocities and not a conventional war.
    This is how we left Basra.

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-11419878

    Iraqi government troops with US support had to retake it from the militias after we left with our tail between our legs.
    As that article suggests Basra was initially peaceful with British forces no
    Let me count the ways you are mistaken.

    But better still, listen to The Reunion, recently broadcast. See if your interpretation skills are sufficient to understand what happened in Basra.
    Yes Gordon Brown had no stomach for the fight unlike George W Bush
    So which was it, victory or defeat?
    In the sense that Basra did not fall to the Baathists but remains under the control of the Iraqi Government it was not a defeat but that was down to George W Bush not Labour PM Gordon Brown who did indeed risk a retreat through his reckless recall of British forces from Basra
  • Options
    CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 59,653
    You get one guess which question's response 'Best For Britain' (sic) publicised:

    https://twitter.com/barnespa/status/983281830941077504
  • Options
    TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 41,298

    HYUFD said:

    Foxy said:

    HYUFD said:

    Foxy said:

    HYUFD said:

    malcolmg said:

    HYUFD said:

    FF43 said:

    TOPPING said:

    Good article.

    Couple of issues, tho.

    First,

    Ain't that so? In the case of Brexit we actually voted for muddle, when things were more sorted before. Maybe Britain is just

    For those concerned about loss of sovereignty or had seen their wages undercut and services pressured by free movement without transition controls things were certainly not sorted before.

    Nor compared to most of the 193 nations in the world is Britain mediocre
    we would struggle to beat a carpet nowadays.
    Arguably the last time we lost a War was the US War of Independence but we are unlikely to be fighting anyone outside of Argentina and Spain (and probably not even them now the Falklands and Gibraltar are relatively settled) without being alongside NATO or the U.N. and/or the USA
    We have lost quite a few since then!

    Pehaps most recently we left Basra and Helmand much as the US leut often it means "Out of their depth".
    No that is not comparable at all.

    In Vietnam the US left with Saigon tional war.
    This is how we left Basra.

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-11419878

    Iraqi government troops with US support had to retake it from the militias after we left with our tail between our legs.
    As that article suggests Basra was initially peaceful with British forces present but as it became more violent Gordon Brown decided to withdraw British troops leaving US troops to replace them.

    So the fault for that can be fairly laid at the door of Labour PM Gordon Brown but Basra did not fall back under Baathist control no
    We have the troops for surgical strikes, quick short-term interventions, stabilisation for development and training/education, but not for sustained heavy counter-insurgencies which tend to run for years and require tens of thousands and the cooperation of friendly local forces.

    It was clear that HMG expected neither Iraq or Afghanistan to develop that way but couldn’t really cut and run once it did.
    We went into Iraq thinking it would be like NI. We ignored the crucial difference that in NI there was an established order, against which "insurgents" rebelled, and which HMF were seeking to uphold. In Iraq there was no order for us to uphold.
  • Options
    Dura_AceDura_Ace Posts: 12,995
    RoyalBlue said:

    El_Sid said:

    The Treasury confirmed Astute Boat 7 last month: https://www.parliament.uk/business/publications/written-questions-answers-statements/written-statement/Commons/2018-03-06/HCWS516/

    The Red Arrows are living on borrowed time - the recent decision to extend the airframes to 2030 means that the production line will be closed, and there won't be a suitable UK airframe in production to replace them, except perhaps a son-of-Taranis drone. And for an alternative view, from someone who takes a more holistic view of British power, see https://thinpinstripedline.blogspot.co.uk/2017/10/redefining-reds.html

    It's a lovely idea to pretend that we can just ignore the Middle East, but for as long as the world economy remains vulnerable to oil shocks, and we are part of that world economy, then we have an interest in ensuring free passage through Hormuz and Bab-el-Mandeb - it's no coincidence that just about every major recession has been preceded by a spike in the oil price. The fact that traffic has flowed through Hormuz for 26 years despite Iran and Saudi being engaged in low-level war is one bit of evidence that what we're doing there is doing some good.

    And you could view the initial spread of ISIS as a direct result of Miliband's unwillingness to support limited action in Syria, whereas the retreat of ISIS came from Western intervention and support. There's no good answers, and the history is grim but complete withdrawal is not going to make things suddenly better.

    It’s depressing if the RAF and ministers have decided to extend the airframe life rather than order new aircraft.

    It strikes me as penny-wise and pound-foolish, just like the idiotic decision to delete cannon from the Eurofighter to save a trivial sum.
    You want the government to buy RAFAT 10 x new Hawk T2s at 18 million quid each?

    There are only 28 T2s in the whole fleet for LIFT so it’s not going to happen. The airframes haven’t been relifed in the structural sense. They are sustained by taking parts off the large supply of redundant T1s. A supply which is soon to increase when 100 squadron’s activities are privatised. However, some parts are more plentiful than others and for Reds it’s going to be canopies. Once that supply is exhausted no more T1...

    The Typhoon has a 27mm Mauser cannon which has been used, probably to minimal effect, against ISIS on Op Shader.
  • Options
    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,992

    HYUFD said:

    Foxy said:

    HYUFD said:

    Foxy said:

    HYUFD said:

    malcolmg said:

    HYUFD said:

    FF43 said:

    TOPPING said:

    Good article.

    Couple of issues, tho.

    First,

    Ain't that so? In the case of Brexit we actually voted for muddle, when things were more sorted before. Maybe Britain is just

    For those concerned about loss of sovereignty or had seen their wages undercut and services pressured by free movement without transition controls things were certainly not sorted before.

    Nor compared to most of the 193 nations in the world is Britain mediocre
    we would struggle to beat a carpet nowadays.
    Arguably the last time we lost a War was the US War of Independence but we are unlikely to be fighting anyone outside of Argentina and Spain (and probably not even them now the Falklands and Gibraltar are relatively settled) without being alongside NATO or the U.N. and/or the USA
    We have lost quite a few since then!

    Pehaps most recently we left Basra and Helmand much as the US leut often it means "Out of their depth".
    No that is not comparable at all.

    In Vietnam the US left with Saigon in the hands of the Communist North Vietnamese. We have left Iraq in the hands of the elected Iraqi government not Saddam and the Baath Party.

    She's we beat Nasser it was just US economic policy forced us to withdraw, Palestine and Aden were just products of decolonisatipn not military defeats. Northern Ireland remains part of the UK and was a series of terrorist atrocities and not a conventional war.
    This is how we left Basra.

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-11419878

    Iraqi government troops with US support had to retake it from the militias after we left with our tail between our legs.
    As that article suggests Basra was initially peaceful with British forces present but as it became more violent Gordon Brown decided to withdraw British troops leaving US troops to replace them.

    So the fault for that can be fairly laid at the door of Labour PM Gordon Brown but Basra did not fall back under Baathist control no
    We have the troops for surgical strikes, quick short-term interventions, stabilisation for development and training/education, but not for sustained heavy counter-insurgencies which tend to run for years and require tens of thousands and the cooperation of friendly local forces.

    It was clear that HMG expected neither Iraq or Afghanistan to develop that way but couldn’t really cut and run once it did.
    It is the US who have the manpower for the latter
  • Options
    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,992

    Be ahead of the game.China will be world leader in 5 years' time,yet no-one,not even Mr Corbyn,can see it,it's China that must be heard and must not be ignored.It is v foolish and against UK's interest not to.

    China better start intervening a bit more then
  • Options
    TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 41,298
    HYUFD said:

    TOPPING said:

    HYUFD said:

    TOPPING said:

    HYUFD said:

    Foxy said:

    HYUFD said:

    Foxy said:

    HYUFD said:

    malcolmg said:

    HYUFD said:

    FF43 said:

    TOPPING said:

    Good article.

    Couple of issues, tho.

    First, given the amingly obvious to the likes of you and me, we as a nation are not great at accepting cold hard truths in any policy area.

    Ain't that so? In the case of Brexit we actually voted for muddle, when things were more sorted before. Maybe Britain is just

    For those concerned about loss of sovereignty or d is Britain mediocre
    we would struggle to beat a carpet nowadays.
    Arguably the last time we lost a War was the US War of Independence buthout being alongside NATO or the U.N. and/or the USA
    We have lost quite a few since then!

    Pehaps most recently we left Basra and Helmand much as the US leut often it means "Out of their depth".
    No that is not comparable at all.

    In Vietnam the US left with Saigon in the hands of the Communist North Vietnamese. We have left Iraq in the hands of the elected Iraqi government not Saddam and the Baath Party.

    She's we beat Nasser it was just US economic policy forced us to withdraw, Palestine and Aden were just products of decolonisatipn not military defeats. Northern Ireland remains part of the UK and was a series of terrorist atrocities and not a conventional war.
    This is how we left Basra.

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-11419878

    Iraqi government troops with US support had to retake it from the militias after we left with our tail between our legs.
    As that article suggests Basra was initially peaceful with British forces no
    Let me count the ways you are mistaken.

    But better still, listen to The Reunion, recently broadcast. See if your interpretation skills are sufficient to understand what happened in Basra.
    Yes Gordon Brown had no stomach for the fight unlike George W Bush
    So which was it, victory or defeat?
    In the sense that Basra did not fall to the Baathists but remains under the control of the Iraqi Government it was not a defeat but that was down to George W Bush not Labour PM Gordon Brown who did indeed risk a retreat through his reckless recall of British forces from Basra
    Come on HYUFD, you can say it, go on, you know you want to.
  • Options
    Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 55,328
    TOPPING said:

    HYUFD said:

    Foxy said:

    HYUFD said:

    Foxy said:

    HYUFD said:

    malcolmg said:

    HYUFD said:

    FF43 said:

    TOPPING said:

    Good article.

    Couple of issues, tho.

    First,

    Ain't that so? In the case of Brexit we actually voted for muddle, when things were more sorted before. Maybe Britain is just

    For those concerned about loss of sovereignty or had seen their wages undercut and services pressured by free movement without transition controls things were certainly not sorted before.

    Nor compared to most of the 193 nations in the world is Britain mediocre
    we would struggle to beat a carpet nowadays.
    Arguably the last time we lost a War was the US War of Independence but we are unlikely to be fighting anyone outside of Argentina and Spain (and probably not even them now the Falklands and Gibraltar are relatively settled) without being alongside NATO or the U.N. and/or the USA
    We have lost quite a few since then!

    Pehaps most recently we left Basra and Helmand much as the US leut often it means "Out of their depth".
    No that is not comparable at all.

    In Vietnam the US left with Saigon tional war.
    This is how we left Basra.

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-11419878

    Iraqi government troops with US support had to retake it from the militias after we left with our tail between our legs.
    As that article suggests Basra was initially peaceful with British forces present but as it became more violent Gordon Brown decided to withdraw British troops leaving US troops to replace them.

    So the fault for that can be fairly laid at the door of Labour PM Gordon Brown but Basra did not fall back under Baathist control no
    We have the troops for surgical strikes, quick short-term interventions, stabilisation for development and training/education, but not for sustained heavy counter-insurgencies which tend to run for years and require tens of thousands and the cooperation of friendly local forces.

    It was clear that HMG expected neither Iraq or Afghanistan to develop that way but couldn’t really cut and run once it did.
    We went into Iraq thinking it would be like NI. We ignored the crucial difference that in NI there was an established order, against which "insurgents" rebelled, and which HMF were seeking to uphold. In Iraq there was no order for us to uphold.
    I think we went into Iraq thinking it would be like Kosovo.
  • Options
    PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 75,926
    Is there a method to give the public a "final say" on the EU referendum without a "vote" on the issue ?
  • Options
    TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 41,298
    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Foxy said:

    HYUFD said:

    Foxy said:

    HYUFD said:

    malcolmg said:

    HYUFD said:

    FF43 said:

    TOPPING said:

    Good article.

    Couple of issues, tho.

    First,

    Ain't that so? In the case of Brexit we actually voted for muddle, when things were more sorted before. Maybe Britain is just

    For those concerned about loss of sovereignty or had seen their wages undercut and services pressured by free movement without transition controls things were certainly not sorted before.

    Nor compared to most of the 193 nations in the world is Britain mediocre
    we would struggle to beat a carpet nowadays.
    Arguably the last time we lost a War was the US War o/or the USA
    We have lost quite a few since then!

    Pehaps most recently we left Basra and Helmand much as the US leut often it means "Out of their depth".
    No that is not comparable at all.

    In Vietnam the US left with Saigon in the hands of the Communist North Vietnamese. We have left Iraq in the hands of the elected Iraqi government not Saddam and the Baath Party.

    She's we beat Nasser it was just US economic policy forced us to withdraw, Palestine and Aden were just products of decolonisatipn not military defeats. Northern Ireland remains part of the UK and was a series of terrorist atrocities and not a conventional war.
    This is how we left Basra.

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-11419878

    Iraqi government troops with US support had to retake it from the militias after we left with our tail between our legs.
    As that article suggests Basra was initially peaceful with British forces present but as it became more violent Gordon Brown decided to withdraw British troops leaving US troops to replace them.

    So the fault for that can be fairly laid at the door of Labour PM Gordon Brown but Basra did not fall back under Baathist control no
    We have the troops for surgical strikes, quick short-term interventions, stabilisation for development and training/education, but not for sustained heavy counter-insurgencies which tend to run for years and require tens of thousands and the cooperation of friendly local forces.

    It was clear that HMG expected neither Iraq or Afghanistan to develop that way but couldn’t really cut and run once it did.
    It is the US who have the manpower for the latter
    They may have the manpower but were and are as unwilling to use it as we are.
  • Options
    Richard_NabaviRichard_Nabavi Posts: 30,820
    Pulpstar said:

    Is there a method to give the public a "final say" on the EU referendum without a "vote" on the issue ?

    Yes, they can moan about it down at the pub, or on politicalbetting.com.
  • Options
    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,992
    TOPPING said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Foxy said:

    HYUFD said:

    Foxy said:

    HYUFD said:

    malcolmg said:

    HYUFD said:

    FF43 said:

    TOPPING said:

    Good article.

    Couple of issues, tho.

    First,

    Ain't that so? In the case of Brexit we actually voted for muddle, when things were more sorted before. Maybe Britain is just

    For those concerned about loss of sovereignty or had seen their wages undercut and services pressured by free movement without transition controls things were certainly not sorted before.

    Nor compared to most of the 193 nations in the world is Britain mediocre
    we would struggle to beat a carpet nowadays.
    Arguably the last time we lost a War was the US War o/or the USA
    We have lost quite a few since then!

    Pehaps most recently we left Basra and Helmand much as the US leut often it means "Out of their depth".
    No that is not comparable at all.

    In Vietnam the US left with Saigon in the hands of the Communist North Vietnamese. We have left Iraq in the hands of the elected Iraqi government not Saddam and the Baath Party.

    She's we beat Nasser it was just US economic policy forced us to withdraw, Palestine and Aden were just products of decolonisatipn not military defeats. Northern Ireland remains part of the UK and was a series of terrorist atrocities and not a conventional war.
    This is how we left Basra.

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-11419878

    Iraqi government troops with US support had to retake it from the militias after we left with our tail between our legs.
    As that article suggests Basra was initially peaceful with British forces present but as it became more violent Gordon Brown decided to withdraw British troops leaving US troops to replace them.

    So the fault for that can be fairly laid at the door of Labour PM Gordon Brown but Basra did not fall back under Baathist control no
    We have the troops for surgical strikes, quick short-term interventions, stabilisation for development and training/education, but not for sustained heavy counter-insurgencies which tend to run for years and require tens of thousands and the cooperation of friendly local forces.

    It was clear that HMG expected neither Iraq or Afghanistan to develop that way but couldn’t really cut and run once it did.
    It is the US who have the manpower for the latter
    They may have the manpower but were and are as unwilling to use it as we are.
    Yet they still have a presence in Afghanistan 17 years later and stayed in Iraq for years
  • Options
    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,992
    TOPPING said:

    HYUFD said:

    TOPPING said:

    HYUFD said:

    TOPPING said:

    HYUFD said:

    Foxy said:

    HYUFD said:

    Foxy said:

    HYUFD said:

    malcolmg said:

    HYUFD said:

    FF43 said:

    TOPPING said:

    Good article.

    Couple of issues, tho.

    First, given the amingly obvious to the likes of you and me, we as a nation are not great at accepting cold hard truths in any policy area.

    Ain't that so? In the case of Brexit we actually voted for muddle, when things were more sorted before. Maybe Britain is just

    For those concerned about loss of sovereignty or d is Britain mediocre
    we would struggle to beat a carpet nowadays.
    Arguably the last time we lost a War was the US War of Independence buthout being alongside NATO or the U.N. and/or the USA
    We have lost quite a few since then!

    Pehaps most recently we left Basra and Helmand much as the US leut often it means "Out of their depth".
    No that is not comparable at all.

    In Vietnam the US left with Saigon in the hands of the Communist North Vietnamese. We have left Iraq in the hands of the elected Iraqi government not Saddam and the Baath Party.

    She's we beat Nasser it was just US economic policy forced us to withdraw, Palestine and Aden were just products of decolonisatipn not military defeats. Northern Ireland remains part of the UK and was a series of terrorist atrocities and not a conventional war.
    This is how we left Basra.

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-11419878

    Iraqi government troops with US support had to retake it from the militias after we left with our tail between our legs.
    As that article suggests Basra was initially peaceful with British forces no
    Let me count the ways you are mistaken.

    But better still, listen to The Reunion, recently broadcast. See if your interpretation skills are sufficient to understand what happened in Basra.
    Yes Gordon Brown had no stomach for the fight unlike George W Bush
    So which was it, victory or defeat?
    In the sense that Basra did not fall to the Baathists but remains under the control of the Iraqi Government it was not a defeat but that was down to George W Bush not Labour PM Gordon Brown who did indeed risk a retreat through his reckless recall of British forces from Basra
    Come on HYUFD, you can say it, go on, you know you want to.
    Yes it was a defeat for Gordon Brown not the British military
  • Options
    TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 41,298

    TOPPING said:

    HYUFD said:

    Foxy said:

    HYUFD said:

    Foxy said:

    HYUFD said:

    malcolmg said:

    HYUFD said:

    FF43 said:

    TOPPING said:

    Good article.

    Couple of issues, tho.

    First,

    Ain't that so? In the case of Brexit we actually voted for muddle, when things were more sorted before. Maybe Britain is just

    For those concerned about loss of sovereignty or had seen their wages undercut and services pressured by free movement without transition controls things were certainly not sorted before.

    Nor compared to most of the 193 nations in the world is Britain mediocre
    we would struggle to beat a carpet nowadays.
    Arguably the last time we lost a War was the US War of Independence but we are unlikely to be fighting anyone outside of Argentina and Spain (and probably not even them now the Falklands and Gibraltar are relatively settled) without being alongside NATO or the U.N. and/or the USA
    We have lost quite a few since then!

    Pehaps most recently we left Basra and Helmand much as the US leut often it means "Out of their depth".
    No that is not comparable at all.

    In Vietnam the US left with Saigon tional war.
    This is how we left Basra.

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-11419878

    Iraqi government troops with US support had to retake it from the militias after we left with our tail between our legs.
    As that article suggests Basra was initially peaceful with British forces present but as it became more violent Gordon Brown decided to withdraw British troops leaving US troops to replace them.

    So the fault for that can be fairly laid at the door of Labour PM Gordon Brown but Basra did not fall back under Baathist control no
    We h

    It was clear that HMG expected neither Iraq or Afghanistan to develop that way but couldn’t really cut and run once it did.
    We went into Iraq thinking it would be like NI. We ignored the crucial difference that in NI there was an established order, against which "insurgents" rebelled, and which HMF were seeking to uphold. In Iraq there was no order for us to uphold.
    I think we went into Iraq thinking it would be like Kosovo.
    Many a US serviceman was reported to have said that if they heard one more Brit tell them how the Brits were the COIN Ops experts on account of our NI experience, they would lamp them.
  • Options
    CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 59,653
    Pulpstar said:

    Is there a method to give the public a "final say" on the EU referendum without a "vote" on the issue ?

    Odd that that's the one Better for Britain (and their useful idiots) chose to publicise.....perhaps it had something to do with the answer it got....
  • Options
    PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 75,926

    Pulpstar said:

    Is there a method to give the public a "final say" on the EU referendum without a "vote" on the issue ?

    Yes, they can moan about it down at the pub, or on politicalbetting.com.
    Daily Mail + BBC (To ensure a full balance of opinion) Have Your say 'Net arrows' for pro-Brexit, anti-Brexit upvoted comments it is then.
  • Options
    FF43FF43 Posts: 15,710
    edited April 2018
    On extending airframe life. The perennial discussion about re-engining the US Airforce's B52 bombers continues and it looks like there's a plan in place to put new engines on, which should extend the life of the planes past 2050, when they will be 100 years old.

    https://www.defensenews.com/air/2017/12/22/air-force-solidifies-options-for-b-52-engine-replacement/
  • Options

    NEW THREAD

  • Options
    Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 55,328
    HYUFD said:

    Be ahead of the game.China will be world leader in 5 years' time,yet no-one,not even Mr Corbyn,can see it,it's China that must be heard and must not be ignored.It is v foolish and against UK's interest not to.

    China better start intervening a bit more then
    And it will. And there will plenty about that we don’t like at all.
  • Options
    TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 41,298
    HYUFD said:

    TOPPING said:

    HYUFD said:

    TOPPING said:

    HYUFD said:

    TOPPING said:

    HYUFD said:

    Foxy said:

    HYUFD said:

    Foxy said:

    HYUFD said:

    malcolmg said:

    HYUFD said:

    FF43 said:

    TOPPING said:

    Good article.

    Couple of issues, tho.

    First, given the amingly obvious to the likes of you and me, we as a nation are not great at accepting cold hard truths in any policy area.

    Ain't that so? In the case of Brexit we actually voted for muddle, when things were more sorted before. Maybe Britain is just

    For those concerned about loss of sovereignty or d is Britain mediocre
    we would struggle to beat a carpet nowadays.
    Arguably the last time we lost a War was the US War of Independence buthout being alongside NATO or the U.N. and/or the USA
    We have lost quite a few since then!

    Pehaps most recently we left Basra and Helmand much as the US leut often it means "Out of their depth".
    No that is not comparable at all.

    In Vietnam the US left with Saigon in the hands of the Communist North Vietnamese. We have left Iraq in the hands of the elected Iraqi government not Saddam and the Baath Party.

    She's we beat Nasser it was juonventional war.
    This is how we left Basra.

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-11419878

    Iraqi government troops with US support had to retake it from the militias after we left with our tail between our legs.
    As that article suggests Basra was initially peaceful with British forces no
    Let me count the ways you are mistaken.

    But better still, listen to The Reunion, recently broadcast. See if your interpretation skills are sufficient to understand what happened in Basra.
    Yes Gordon Brown had no stomach for the fight unlike George W Bush
    So which was it, victory or defeat?
    In the sense that Basra did not fall to the Baathists but remains under the control of the Iraqi Government it was not a defeat but that was down to George W Bush not Labour PM Gordon Brown who did indeed risk a retreat through his reckless recall of British forces from Basra
    Come on HYUFD, you can say it, go on, you know you want to.
    Yes it was a defeat for Gordon Brown not the British military
    Yes it was a defeat for the British Government = "us".

    Finally!
  • Options
    CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 59,653
    Peter Kellner's take on the chances for a new party:

    http://www.deltapoll.co.uk/breaking-the-grip
  • Options
    FloaterFloater Posts: 14,195
    glw said:

    Floater said:

    At the same time they are reporting the Russians as saying there was no use of chemicals in Syria - even Jezbollah not going that far.

    I'd wait and see, believing Russian lies is SOP.
    To be fair they reported the Russian claim and then basically said "but everyone knows there was a chemical attack"
  • Options
    Dura_AceDura_Ace Posts: 12,995
    HYUFD said:



    Yes it was a defeat for Gordon Brown not the British military

    I was there and we were militarily defeated.
  • Options
    RoyalBlueRoyalBlue Posts: 3,223
    @Anazina - it’s nice to have backing from Sir John Curtice for my earlier post.

    Perhaps next time you’ll engage with my argument, rather than just making an ad hominem attack.
  • Options
    El_SidEl_Sid Posts: 145
    RoyalBlue said:

    It’s depressing if the RAF and ministers have decided to extend the airframe life rather than order new aircraft.

    It strikes me as penny-wise and pound-foolish, just like the idiotic decision to delete cannon from the Eurofighter to save a trivial sum.

    They didn't really have much choice at a time when the budget is generally tight and there's particular pressure on the plane budget as we're in the middle of trying to ramp up F-35 procurement to get them onto the shiny new carriers. That's the kind of thing that is so high profile and involves so many other moving parts, they can't really back down on.

    I imagine the thinking is that by 2030 they may be able to scrounge a few T2's from training as by then training for our few remaining manned aircraft will be done entirely on PlayStation 6's.

    I've not seen figures from Syria, but in Afghan around 10% of sorties resulted in "action", and those "actions" were split pretty much 1:1:1 between fly-pasts, strafing with a gun, and dropping something that went bang.

    As for what 1.26% of GDP buys Germany, see http://www.dw.com/en/german-military-short-on-tanks-for-nato-mission/a-42603112
    Their entire submarine fleet is currently out of service - Dönitz must be spinning in his grave - and availability of their tanks and aircraft is not much better.
  • Options
    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,992
    TOPPING said:

    HYUFD said:

    TOPPING said:

    HYUFD said:

    TOPPING said:

    HYUFD said:

    TOPPING said:

    HYUFD said:

    Foxy said:

    HYUFD said:

    Foxy said:

    HYUFD said:

    malcolmg said:

    HYUFD said:

    FF43 said:

    TOPPING said:

    Good article.

    Couple of issues, tho.

    First, given the amingly obvious to the likes of you and me, we as a nation are not great at accepting cold hard truths in any policy area.

    Ain't that so? In the case of Brexit we actually voted for muddle, when things were more sorted before. Maybe Britain is just

    For those concerned about loss of sovereignty or d is Britain mediocre
    we would struggle to beat a carpet nowadays.
    Arguably the last time we lost a War was the US War of Independence buthout being alongside NATO or the U.N. and/or the USA
    We have lost quite a few since then!

    Pehaps most recently we left Basra and Helmand much as the US leut often it means "Out of their depth".
    No that is not comparable at allntional war.
    This is how we left Basra.

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-11419878

    Iraqi government troops with US support had to retake it from the militias after we left with our tail between our legs.
    As that article suggests Basra was initially peaceful with British forces no
    Let me count the ways you are mistaken.

    But better still, listen to The Reunion, recently broadcast. See if your interpretation skills are sufficient to understand what happened in Basra.
    Yes Gordon Brown had no stomach for the fight unlike George W Bush
    So which was it, victory or defeat?
    In the sense that Basra did not fall to the Baathists but remains under the control of the Iraqi Government it was not a defeat but that was down to George W Bush not Labour PM Gordon Brown who did indeed risk a retreat through his reckless recall of British forces from Basra
    Come on HYUFD, you can say it, go on, you know you want to.
    Yes it was a defeat for Gordon Brown not the British military
    Yes it was a defeat for the British Government = "us".

    Finally!
    I never voted for Gordon Brown so it was not a military defeat it was an inept decision of Brown to withdraw troops far too early leaving the US to finish the job
  • Options
    TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 41,298
    HYUFD said:

    TOPPING said:

    HYUFD said:

    TOPPING said:

    HYUFD said:

    TOPPING said:

    HYUFD said:

    TOPPING said:

    HYUFD said:

    Foxy said:

    HYUFD said:

    Foxy said:

    HYUFD said:

    malcolmg said:

    HYUFD said:

    FF43 said:

    TOPPING said:

    Good article.

    Couple of issues, tho.

    First, given the amingly obvious to the likes of you and me, we as a nation are not great at accepting cold hard truths in any policy area.

    Ain't that so? In the case of Brexit we actually voted for muddle, when things were more sorted before. Maybe Britain is just

    For those concerned about loss of sovereignty or d is Britain mediocre
    we would struggle to beat a carpet nowadays.
    Arguably the last time we lost a War was the US War of Independence buthout being alongside NATO or the U.N. and/or the USA
    We have lost quite a few since then!

    Pehaps most recently we left Basra and Helmand much as the US leut often it means "Out of their depth".
    No that is not comparable at allntional war.
    This is how we left Basra.

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-11419878

    Iraqi government troops with US support had to retake it from the militias after we left with our tail between our legs.
    As that article suggests Basra was initially peaceful with British forces no
    Let me count the ways you are mistaken.

    But better still, listen to The Reunion, recently broadcast. See if your interpretation skills are sufficient to understand what happened in Basra.
    Yes Gordon Brown had no stomach for the fight unlike George W Bush
    So which was it, victory or defeat?
    In the sense that Basra did not fall to the Baathists but remains under the control of the Iraqi Government it was not a defeat but that was down to George W Bush not Labour PM Gordon Brown who did indeed risk a retreat through his reckless recall of British forces from Basra
    Come on HYUFD, you can say it, go on, you know you want to.
    Yes it was a defeat for Gordon Brown not the British military
    Yes it was a defeat for the British Government = "us".

    Finally!
    I never voted for Gordon Brown so it was not a military defeat it was an inept decision of Brown to withdraw troops far too early leaving the US to finish the job
    It...was...a...military...defeat...

  • Options
    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,992
    TOPPING said:

    HYUFD said:

    TOPPING said:

    HYUFD said:

    TOPPING said:

    HYUFD said:

    TOPPING said:

    HYUFD said:

    TOPPING said:

    HYUFD said:

    Foxy said:

    HYUFD said:

    Foxy said:

    HYUFD said:

    malcolmg said:

    HYUFD said:

    FF43 said:

    TOPPING said:

    Good article.

    Couple of issues, tho.

    First, given the amingly obvious to the likes of you and me, we as a nation are not great at accepting cold hard truths in any policy area.

    Ain't that so? In the case of Brexit we actually voted for muddle, when things were more sorted before. Maybe Britain is just

    For those concerned about loss of sovereignty or d is Britain mediocre
    we would struggle to beat a carpet nowadays.
    Arguably the last time we lost a War was the US War of Independence buthout being alongside NATO or the U.N. and/or the USA
    We have lost quite a few since then!

    Pehaps most recently we left Basra and Helmand much as the US leut often it means "Out of their depth".
    No that is not comparable at allntional war.
    This is how we left Basra.

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-11419878

    Iraqi government troops with US support had to retake it from the militias after we left with our tail between our legs.
    As that article suggests Basra was initially peaceful with British forces no
    Let me count the ways you are mistaken.

    But better still, listen to The Reunion, recently broadcast. See if your interpretation skills are sufficient to understand what happened in Basra.
    Yes Gordon Brown had no stomach for the fight unlike George W Bush
    So which was it, victory or defeat?
    In the sense that Basra did not fall to the Baathists but remains under the control of ces from Basra
    Come on HYUFD, you can say it, go on, you know you want to.
    Yes it was a defeat for Gordon Brown not the British military
    Yes it was a defeat for the British Government = "us".

    Finally!
    I never voted for Gordon Brown so it was not a military defeat it was an inept decision of Brown to withdraw troops far too early leaving the US to finish the job
    It...was...a...military...defeat...

    No it was a Gordon Brown withdrawal the blame for which lies with him
  • Options
    TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 41,298
    HYUFD said:

    TOPPING said:

    HYUFD said:

    TOPPING said:

    HYUFD said:

    TOPPING said:

    HYUFD said:

    TOPPING said:

    HYUFD said:

    TOPPING said:

    HYUFD said:

    Foxy said:

    HYUFD said:

    Foxy said:

    HYUFD said:

    malcolmg said:

    HYUFD said:

    FF43 said:

    TOPPING said:

    Good article.

    Couple of issues, tho.

    First, given the amingly obvious to the likes of you and me, we as a nation are not great at accepting cold hard truths in any policy area.

    Ain't that so? In the case of Brexit we actually voted for muddle, when things were more sorted before. Maybe Britain is just

    For those concerned about loss of sovereignty or d is Britain mediocre
    we would struggle to beat a carpet nowadays.
    Arguably the last time we lost a War was the US War of Independence buthout being alongside NATO or the U.N. and/or the USA
    We have lost quite a few since then!

    Pehaps most recently we left Basra and Helmand much as the US leut often it means "Out of their depth".
    No that is not comparable at allntional war.
    This is how we left Basra.

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-11419878

    Iraqi government troops with US support had to retake it from the militias after we left with our tail between our legs.
    As that article suggests Basra was initially peaceful with British forces no
    Let me count the ways you are mistaken.

    But better still, listen to The Reunion, recently broadcast. See if your interpretation skills are sufficient to understand what happened in Basra.
    Yes Gordon Brown had no stomach for the fight unlike George W Bush
    So which was it, victory or defeat?
    In the sense that Basra did not fall to the Baathists but remains under the control of ces from Basra
    Come on HYUFD, you can say it, go on, you know you want to.
    Yes it was a defeat for Gordon Brown not the British military
    Yes it was a defeat for the British Government = "us".

    Finally!
    I never voted for Gordon Brown so it was not a military defeat it was an inept decision of Brown to withdraw troops far too early leaving the US to finish the job
    It...was...a...military...defeat...

    No it was a Gordon Brown withdrawal the blame for which lies with him
    Military defeat. Look it up.
  • Options
    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,992
    TOPPING said:

    HYUFD said:

    TOPPING said:

    HYUFD said:

    TOPPING said:

    HYUFD said:

    TOPPING said:

    HYUFD said:

    TOPPING said:

    HYUFD said:

    TOPPING said:

    HYUFD said:

    Foxy said:

    HYUFD said:

    Foxy said:

    HYUFD said:

    malcolmg said:

    HYUFD said:

    FF43 said:

    TOPPING said:

    Good article.

    Couple of issueolicy area.

    Ain't that so? In the case of Brexit we actually voted for muddle, when things were more sorted before. Maybe Britain is just

    For those concerned about loss of sovereignty or d is Britain mediocre
    we would struggle to beat a carpet nowadays.
    Arguably the last time we lost a War was the US War of Independence buthout being alongside NATO or the U.N. and/or the USA
    We have lost quite a few since then!

    Pehaps most recently we left Basra and Helmand much as the US leut often it means "Out of their depth".
    No that is not comparable at allntional war.
    This is how we left Basra.

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-11419878

    Iraqi government troops with US support had to retake it from the militias after we left with our tail between our legs.
    As that article suggests Basra was initially peaceful with British forces no
    Let me count the ways you are mistaken.

    But better still, listen to The Reunion, recently broadcast. See if your interpretation skills are sufficient to understand what happened in Basra.
    Yes Gordon Brown had no stomach for the fight unlike George W Bush
    So which was it, victory or defeat?
    In the sense that Basra did not fall to the Baathists but remains under the control of ces from Basra
    Come on HYUFD, you can say it, go on, you know you want to.
    Yes it was a defeat for Gordon Brown not the British military
    Yes it was a defeat for the British Government = "us".

    Finally!
    I never voted for Gordon Brown so it was not a military defeat it was an inept decision of Brown to withdraw troops far too early leaving the US to finish the job
    It...was...a...military...defeat...

    No it was a Gordon Brown withdrawal the blame for which lies with him
    Military defeat. Look it up.
    Yes a defeat on the battlefield, not a withdrawal of troops by a hapless PM leaving your allies to fill in the gap!
This discussion has been closed.