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politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » Why we should focus much more on leader ratings and less on vo

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    TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 41,304

    King Cole, there are some revisionists who think that John being talented at extortion makes up for him being an extortionist. And torturing prisoners (including women/children). And being a bit rapey. And incompetent at war, losing all the continental possessions he inherited. And so hated by his own side they invited the French to invade. And treacherous against his brother, and father (both royal predecessors). And committing nepocide.

    tbf he was the first King of England that spent his reign in, er, England. And hence made a nuisance of himself. Not 100% sure that any other king at that time, if confined to barracks, would not equally have made himself hugely unpopular.

    Violent acts? Which king of the time, and before and since, up until, oh I don't know, the Hanovers, didn't?
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    JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 39,002
    Pulpstar said:

    Off-topic:

    One for the engineering geek. Below is a photo of the mandrel that SpaceX will be using to create the carbon-fibre tanks for their BFS spaceship.

    www.instagram.com/p/BhVk3y3A0yB/

    It's certainly big!

    Is that a Tesla by any chance? Elon doesn't miss the opportunity for some cross promotional PR.
    Well, he wouldn't use another car, would he!

    Though the style of SpaceX cars - aside from the original LotusRoadster, leaves me a little cold. They're not sexy.
    What's wrong with one of these?

    image
    I once saw a little railway permanent way trolley (Wickham) that had been fitted with an engine from one of those. even that puny engine rather overpowered the brakes!

    And as a further aside, here is the inside a Saturn V LOX tank, with people for scale. The BFS will be a metre smaller in diameter:
    https://www.pinterest.co.uk/pin/519743613219175282/
    Although now not dissimiliar to Saturn V/SLS thrust, the true beauty of the BFS 'system' is the in-orbit fuelling and reusability.
    Yep. von Braun had plans for Saturn V reuse as well, and Boeing considered a version with wings that would fly back! But the US were not interested - the mission had been accomplished.

    AIUI (and IANAE) the BFS' Achilles heel is that it is fairly inefficient when it comes to deep space travel: it is a system mainly designed to get things efficiently off Earth and into LEO. To be good in deep space, you need to use liquid hydrogen/oxygen - as the SLS and (as recently announced) the New Glenn second stage.
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    RhubarbRhubarb Posts: 359

    Pulpstar said:

    Off-topic:

    One for the engineering geek. Below is a photo of the mandrel that SpaceX will be using to create the carbon-fibre tanks for their BFS spaceship.

    www.instagram.com/p/BhVk3y3A0yB/

    It's certainly big!

    Is that a Tesla by any chance? Elon doesn't miss the opportunity for some cross promotional PR.
    Well, he wouldn't use another car, would he!

    Though the style of SpaceX cars - aside from the original LotusRoadster, leaves me a little cold. They're not sexy.
    What's wrong with one of these?

    image
    I once saw a little railway permanent way trolley (Wickham) that had been fitted with an engine from one of those. even that puny engine rather overpowered the brakes!

    And as a further aside, here is the inside a Saturn V LOX tank, with people for scale. The BFS will be a metre smaller in diameter:
    https://www.pinterest.co.uk/pin/519743613219175282/
    Although now not dissimiliar to Saturn V/SLS thrust, the true beauty of the BFS 'system' is the in-orbit fuelling and reusability.
    Yep. von Braun had plans for Saturn V reuse as well, and Boeing considered a version with wings that would fly back! But the US were not interested - the mission had been accomplished.

    AIUI (and IANAE) the BFS' Achilles heel is that it is fairly inefficient when it comes to deep space travel: it is a system mainly designed to get things efficiently off Earth and into LEO. To be good in deep space, you need to use liquid hydrogen/oxygen - as the SLS and (as recently announced) the New Glenn second stage.
    There was a plan kicking around to partially fit out the tanks for use as a large (compared to what there was then) LEO space station - with the remainder of the necessary kit sent up later and installed on site. It's probably not worth it now- if you want a big station then the Bigelow Aerospace inflatable station stuff seems like a better idea.
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    ydoethurydoethur Posts: 67,238

    King John was worse. It is hard to find anyone quite so bad. Collectively, the Angeli dynasty might be a good comparison.

    I'm intrigued you put him below Richard III (who was basically similar in most crucial ways but didn't have the throne as long) or Henry VI.
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    Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 60,983
    Mr. Topping, John spent time in England because he'd lost the possessions overseas and found it difficult to persuade others to follow him to reclaim them due to a combination of alienating the nobility and being mediocre (at best) at war. Congratulating him for being in England, as compared to immediate predecessors, is like praising a man for being faithful to his wife, having crashed his boat and marooned the pair of them on a desert island.

    And I didn't chastise him for violent acts, but for torturing prisoners, including women and children by starving them to death, and committing rape. Edward III (despite one scurrilous rumour) did no such thing (certainly for the latter, and I believe for the former also).
  • Options
    ydoethurydoethur Posts: 67,238

    ydoethur said:

    If, as we're all agreed, Jezza is the worst political leader in the history of everything, then Theresa's ratings really are supremely shit.

    No he isn't.

    The Marquis of Granby and the Viscount Goderich were both considerably worse than Jezza.

    Not to be confined to one party, convincing cases could be made for Arthur Henderson, Lord Rosebery and Herbert Asquith as well.
    You're being unfair on Henderson, apart from his unwillingness to stand down after losing his seat. Also, his first two terms as leader were critical in establishing Labour as a permanent, meaningful parliamentary force and in taking Labour into government at a time when to have stood back on pacifist grounds - as MacDonald did - could have destroyed the movement.

    Lansbury was worse.
    I thought he had suffered the greatest net loss of seats by any leader in the history of British politics. On a careful check I am wrong and his disaster was only the greatest in the age of universal suffrage (Balfour having done slightly worse in 1906).

    I appreciate however that wasn't altogether his fault.
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    david_herdsondavid_herdson Posts: 17,419
    Any party can suffer an unfortunate infestation; Labour's problem seems to be its ability to appoint / elect them to party roles.
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    Scrapheap_as_wasScrapheap_as_was Posts: 10,059
    edited April 2018
    Scott_P said:
    Wing-nut in chief as well as Minister for Truth.

    He'll hold on to these titles a lot longer than his shadow cabinet position!
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    TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 41,304

    Mr. Topping, John spent time in England because he'd lost the possessions overseas and found it difficult to persuade others to follow him to reclaim them due to a combination of alienating the nobility and being mediocre (at best) at war. Congratulating him for being in England, as compared to immediate predecessors, is like praising a man for being faithful to his wife, having crashed his boat and marooned the pair of them on a desert island.

    And I didn't chastise him for violent acts, but for torturing prisoners, including women and children by starving them to death, and committing rape. Edward III (despite one scurrilous rumour) did no such thing (certainly for the latter, and I believe for the former also).

    Morris I am not praising him or criticising him for being in England, I am saying just that he was in England (because as you say he managed to lose most of his continental possessions) whereas previous monarchs (well, after William) had not been there for very much of the time at all and hence, the barons got to see more of him and all wealth extraction, and territorial shenanigans, and general kingly activities had to happen domestically and hence the barons got mightily pissed off.
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    FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 76,285
    edited April 2018
    Floater said:
    Obviously not only the anti-JewishZionist stuff, but what is it with the conspiracy theory nutters and Maomentum....
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    david_herdsondavid_herdson Posts: 17,419
    ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    If, as we're all agreed, Jezza is the worst political leader in the history of everything, then Theresa's ratings really are supremely shit.

    No he isn't.

    The Marquis of Granby and the Viscount Goderich were both considerably worse than Jezza.

    Not to be confined to one party, convincing cases could be made for Arthur Henderson, Lord Rosebery and Herbert Asquith as well.
    You're being unfair on Henderson, apart from his unwillingness to stand down after losing his seat. Also, his first two terms as leader were critical in establishing Labour as a permanent, meaningful parliamentary force and in taking Labour into government at a time when to have stood back on pacifist grounds - as MacDonald did - could have destroyed the movement.

    Lansbury was worse.
    I thought he had suffered the greatest net loss of seats by any leader in the history of British politics. On a careful check I am wrong and his disaster was only the greatest in the age of universal suffrage (Balfour having done slightly worse in 1906).

    I appreciate however that wasn't altogether his fault.
    "Hospital pass" doesn't even begin to describe it! (And to be fair, Labour still polled more than 30%).
  • Options

    Any party can suffer an unfortunate infestation; Labour's problem seems to be its ability to appoint / elect them to party roles.
    I refer you to the Chief Wing-nut.
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    williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 48,067

    Anazina said:

    This is very shoddy reporting:

    Public backs fresh referendum to have 'final say' on terms of Brexit deal

    https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/brexit-second-referendum-theresa-may-final-deal-eu-autumn-negotiations-a8294986.html

    The public don't back a 'fresh referendum' - the oppose another 'vote' - but they do support a 'final say'......

    Good gracious the Central Office Brexit Rebuttal Unit is working overtime today!
    https://twitter.com/whatukthinks/status/983268192788369408
    Given that the poll was obviously conducted to help hone the message, I’m glad you are doing your bit to ensure it is always called a “final say”.
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    Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 60,983
    Mr. Doethur, I'm unfamiliar with Richard III/Henry VI. I think the early 15th century is quite modern enough.

    Mr. Topping, neither of John's immediate predecessors were so unpopular as him. His presence appears to have been more a cause of concern than delight.
  • Options
    ydoethurydoethur Posts: 67,238

    ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    If, as we're all agreed, Jezza is the worst political leader in the history of everything, then Theresa's ratings really are supremely shit.

    No he isn't.

    The Marquis of Granby and the Viscount Goderich were both considerably worse than Jezza.

    Not to be confined to one party, convincing cases could be made for Arthur Henderson, Lord Rosebery and Herbert Asquith as well.
    You're being unfair on Henderson, apart from his unwillingness to stand down after losing his seat. Also, his first two terms as leader were critical in establishing Labour as a permanent, meaningful parliamentary force and in taking Labour into government at a time when to have stood back on pacifist grounds - as MacDonald did - could have destroyed the movement.

    Lansbury was worse.
    I thought he had suffered the greatest net loss of seats by any leader in the history of British politics. On a careful check I am wrong and his disaster was only the greatest in the age of universal suffrage (Balfour having done slightly worse in 1906).

    I appreciate however that wasn't altogether his fault.
    "Hospital pass" doesn't even begin to describe it! (And to be fair, Labour still polled more than 30%).
    Are you saying he was 1% better than Gordon Brown? Because that's hardly a high bar...
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    FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 76,285
    edited April 2018

    Mr. 1000, I saw much good coverage, but being an old-fashioned fellow the weird approach to releasing the game put me off.

    Also, surprised to hear (from Mr. Urquhart) there is a second season as I gathered the studio behind it had gone bust/been taken over.

    Square Enix wanted to sell IO Interactive (the studio behind Hitman), couldn't find a buyer, but in the end, IO management bought it out.
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    ydoethurydoethur Posts: 67,238
    edited April 2018

    Mr. Doethur, I'm unfamiliar with Richard III/Henry VI. I think the early 15th century is quite modern enough.

    You certainly are unfamiliar with them. They are both 'late' fifteenth century (albeit Henry was officially King from 1422).
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    TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 41,304

    Mr. Topping, neither of John's immediate predecessors were so unpopular as him. His presence appears to have been more a cause of concern than delight.

    THAT IS MY POINT MORRIS.
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    Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 60,983
    Mr. Urquhart, cheers for that information. Hope they make a success of it.

    Mr. Doethur, well, not read anything on Henry V's reign either (excluding general Hundred Years' War stuff).
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    JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 39,002
    Rhubarb said:

    There was a plan kicking around to partially fit out the tanks for use as a large (compared to what there was then) LEO space station - with the remainder of the necessary kit sent up later and installed on site. It's probably not worth it now- if you want a big station then the Bigelow Aerospace inflatable station stuff seems like a better idea.

    That was the wet-lab Skylab proposal; in the end they went for a dry-lab.

    (A wet-lab is a used rocket stage that is lifted further into orbit and fitted out. A dry-lab is a stage that is kitted out on Earth and sent up 'dry' without fuel - AIUI dry labs are smaller, but require much less work on orbit to get operational. And Skylab was *huge* despite being a dry-lab in a Saturn IV-B stage).

    There were also proposals for the same thing to happen to a Shuttle External Tank, a proposal which failed for a number of reasons. But the tank got almost to orbital speed before it was jettisoned, so would not have required much extra ooomph to get it into orbit. See
    http://ssi.org/wp-content/uploads/2017/03/ssi_externaltanks_gimarc.pdf
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    FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 76,285
    edited April 2018

    Mr. Urquhart, cheers for that information. Hope they make a success of it.

    Mr. Doethur, well, not read anything on Henry V's reign either (excluding general Hundred Years' War stuff).

    The Hitman game is brilliant and I really liked the episodic release, but it seemed to go down like a bucket of cold sick with the gaming community. Also I noticed that none of the big twitch streamers played it on release and these days that drives a huge amount of interest in games.

    I would have thought that Square Enix could have afforded to pay a handful of the big Twitch variety streamers to play it one day a month, as it is the sort of puzzly type game that will easily fill 6-8hrs of time just for one level.
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    TheWhiteRabbitTheWhiteRabbit Posts: 12,388

    Scott_P said:
    Wing-nut in chief as well as Minister for Truth.

    He'll hold on to these titles a lot longer than his shadow cabinet position!
    I would be tempted to put him in the Shad Cab, just so you can sack him again. And again. And again. Like Lord Faulkner's many resignations,
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    TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 41,304
    ydoethur said:

    King John was worse. It is hard to find anyone quite so bad. Collectively, the Angeli dynasty might be a good comparison.

    I'm intrigued you put him below Richard III (who was basically similar in most crucial ways but didn't have the throne as long) or Henry VI.
    How very dare you I follow Josephine Tey in my assessment of Richard III

    :wink:
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    DavidLDavidL Posts: 51,306

    Chuka Umunna has accepted Amber Rudd's invitation to join her task force on knife crime.

    Good move by Amber and maybe Chuka is signalling a move away from Corbyn

    A new centre party anyone

    Does that put pressure on Khan to join or is he already aboard?
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    DavidLDavidL Posts: 51,306

    Those leadership ratings may be about to take another hit:

    twitter.com/LOS_Fisher/status/983341751569211392

    All that is missing is....there are good people on all sides....
    I'm sure Mrs Assad is charming.
    Well Jezza should know,

    image
    I think that's Baroness Tongue rather than his wife to be honest.
    I didn't say / think that was his wife in the photo.
    Mrs Assad is by all accounts a very impressive lady. Highly educated and was very successful in her own right, investment banking I believe. Then she married Mr Assad, gave it all up and now props up the vicious murdering dictator.
    The things we do for love, eh?

    Presumably gassing women and children were left out of the song because they didn't scan so well.
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    ydoethurydoethur Posts: 67,238
    TOPPING said:

    ydoethur said:

    King John was worse. It is hard to find anyone quite so bad. Collectively, the Angeli dynasty might be a good comparison.

    I'm intrigued you put him below Richard III (who was basically similar in most crucial ways but didn't have the throne as long) or Henry VI.
    How very dare you I follow Josephine Tey in my assessment of Richard III

    :wink:
    I thought these days it was Philippa Langley, gazing dreamily into the eyes of his reconstructed skull and saying 'that's not the face of a tyrant, I'm sorry but it's not' as she patently falls in love with it/him live on air...
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    FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 76,285
    edited April 2018
    Speaking to LBC’s Political Editor Theo Ushwerood, the Labour leader said:

    “I think she’s (Maureen Lipman) a great actress, a great comic and I hope she reflects on what she said.”

    https://order-order.com/2018/04/09/corbyn-tells-maureen-lipman/

    Interesting response.

    Maureen you have been very naughty and I think you should go away and think very carefully about what you have said and what you have done wrong...
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    TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 41,304
    ydoethur said:

    TOPPING said:

    ydoethur said:

    King John was worse. It is hard to find anyone quite so bad. Collectively, the Angeli dynasty might be a good comparison.

    I'm intrigued you put him below Richard III (who was basically similar in most crucial ways but didn't have the throne as long) or Henry VI.
    How very dare you I follow Josephine Tey in my assessment of Richard III

    :wink:
    I thought these days it was Philippa Langley, gazing dreamily into the eyes of his reconstructed skull and saying 'that's not the face of a tyrant, I'm sorry but it's not' as she patently falls in love with it/him live on air...
    Has she done anything else apart from her “project”?
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    MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 50,125

    Any party can suffer an unfortunate infestation; Labour's problem seems to be its ability to appoint / elect them to party roles.
    Labour seem to have developed a very humane trap to cope with their infestations, such that the thing doesn't actually trap anything at all....
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    MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 50,125

    Speaking to LBC’s Political Editor Theo Ushwerood, the Labour leader said:

    “I think she’s (Maureen Lipman) a great actress, a great comic and I hope she reflects on what she said.”

    https://order-order.com/2018/04/09/corbyn-tells-maureen-lipman/

    Interesting response.

    Maureen you have been very naughty and I think you should go away and think very carefully about what you have said and what you have done wrong...

    Here are some new lines for you to go away and learn.....
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    DavidL said:

    Chuka Umunna has accepted Amber Rudd's invitation to join her task force on knife crime.

    Good move by Amber and maybe Chuka is signalling a move away from Corbyn

    A new centre party anyone

    Does that put pressure on Khan to join or is he already aboard?
    He should join but I do not know if he has been invited
  • Options
    ydoethurydoethur Posts: 67,238
    TOPPING said:

    ydoethur said:

    TOPPING said:

    ydoethur said:

    King John was worse. It is hard to find anyone quite so bad. Collectively, the Angeli dynasty might be a good comparison.

    I'm intrigued you put him below Richard III (who was basically similar in most crucial ways but didn't have the throne as long) or Henry VI.
    How very dare you I follow Josephine Tey in my assessment of Richard III

    :wink:
    I thought these days it was Philippa Langley, gazing dreamily into the eyes of his reconstructed skull and saying 'that's not the face of a tyrant, I'm sorry but it's not' as she patently falls in love with it/him live on air...
    Has she done anything else apart from her “project”?
    She wrote a book on it, although I haven't read it.

    In private life I believe she's a TV producer for BBC Scotland, although I could be wrong.
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    CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 59,674

    Anazina said:

    This is very shoddy reporting:

    Public backs fresh referendum to have 'final say' on terms of Brexit deal

    https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/brexit-second-referendum-theresa-may-final-deal-eu-autumn-negotiations-a8294986.html

    The public don't back a 'fresh referendum' - the oppose another 'vote' - but they do support a 'final say'......

    Good gracious the Central Office Brexit Rebuttal Unit is working overtime today!
    https://twitter.com/whatukthinks/status/983268192788369408
    Given that the poll was obviously conducted to help hone the message, I’m glad you are doing your bit to ensure it is always called a “final say”.
    And how do you propose to do that without having 'a vote' (which people don't want....)

    Bit difficult painting your opponents as mendacious scumbags when you yourself only publicise one half of your poll.....
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    williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 48,067

    Anazina said:

    This is very shoddy reporting:

    Public backs fresh referendum to have 'final say' on terms of Brexit deal

    https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/brexit-second-referendum-theresa-may-final-deal-eu-autumn-negotiations-a8294986.html

    The public don't back a 'fresh referendum' - the oppose another 'vote' - but they do support a 'final say'......

    Good gracious the Central Office Brexit Rebuttal Unit is working overtime today!
    https://twitter.com/whatukthinks/status/983268192788369408
    Given that the poll was obviously conducted to help hone the message, I’m glad you are doing your bit to ensure it is always called a “final say”.
    And how do you propose to do that without having 'a vote' (which people don't want....)

    Bit difficult painting your opponents as mendacious scumbags when you yourself only publicise one half of your poll.....
    They didn't ask both questions to the same people. It was a test to see which question wording got more support.
  • Options
    CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 59,674

    Anazina said:

    This is very shoddy reporting:

    Public backs fresh referendum to have 'final say' on terms of Brexit deal

    https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/brexit-second-referendum-theresa-may-final-deal-eu-autumn-negotiations-a8294986.html

    The public don't back a 'fresh referendum' - the oppose another 'vote' - but they do support a 'final say'......

    Good gracious the Central Office Brexit Rebuttal Unit is working overtime today!
    https://twitter.com/whatukthinks/status/983268192788369408
    Given that the poll was obviously conducted to help hone the message, I’m glad you are doing your bit to ensure it is always called a “final say”.
    And how do you propose to do that without having 'a vote' (which people don't want....)

    Bit difficult painting your opponents as mendacious scumbags when you yourself only publicise one half of your poll.....
    They didn't ask both questions to the same people. It was a test to see which question wording got more support.
    So why didn't the publicise both, instead of looking like knaves when YouGov published it (and made much of Fleet Street look foolish...)?
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    volcanopetevolcanopete Posts: 2,078
    For those of us who confront anti-semitism it is important that the Tory Foreign Secretary has just licked the arse of an anti-semite in Hungary and has received so little criticism,as he did not when he spoke of "water melon smiles".The UK has a racist and anti-semite as Foreign Secretary.Not in my name.
    May must sack him for this.
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    williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 48,067

    Anazina said:

    This is very shoddy reporting:

    Public backs fresh referendum to have 'final say' on terms of Brexit deal

    https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/brexit-second-referendum-theresa-may-final-deal-eu-autumn-negotiations-a8294986.html

    The public don't back a 'fresh referendum' - the oppose another 'vote' - but they do support a 'final say'......

    Good gracious the Central Office Brexit Rebuttal Unit is working overtime today!
    https://twitter.com/whatukthinks/status/983268192788369408
    Given that the poll was obviously conducted to help hone the message, I’m glad you are doing your bit to ensure it is always called a “final say”.
    And how do you propose to do that without having 'a vote' (which people don't want....)

    Bit difficult painting your opponents as mendacious scumbags when you yourself only publicise one half of your poll.....
    They didn't ask both questions to the same people. It was a test to see which question wording got more support.
    So why didn't the publicise both, instead of looking like knaves when YouGov published it (and made much of Fleet Street look foolish...)?
    People support giving the public a "final say". Theresa May should give the people what they want.
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    CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 59,674

    For those of us who confront anti-semitism it is important that the Tory Foreign Secretary has just licked the arse of an anti-semite in Hungary and has received so little criticism,as he did not when he spoke of "water melon smiles".The UK has a racist and anti-semite as Foreign Secretary.Not in my name.
    May must sack him for this.

    Tusk too?

    https://twitter.com/eucopresident/status/983382898454777857
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    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 117,005

    Anazina said:

    This is very shoddy reporting:

    Public backs fresh referendum to have 'final say' on terms of Brexit deal

    https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/brexit-second-referendum-theresa-may-final-deal-eu-autumn-negotiations-a8294986.html

    The public don't back a 'fresh referendum' - the oppose another 'vote' - but they do support a 'final say'......

    Good gracious the Central Office Brexit Rebuttal Unit is working overtime today!
    https://twitter.com/whatukthinks/status/983268192788369408
    Given that the poll was obviously conducted to help hone the message, I’m glad you are doing your bit to ensure it is always called a “final say”.
    And how do you propose to do that without having 'a vote' (which people don't want....)

    Bit difficult painting your opponents as mendacious scumbags when you yourself only publicise one half of your poll.....
    They didn't ask both questions to the same people. It was a test to see which question wording got more support.
    So why didn't the publicise both, instead of looking like knaves when YouGov published it (and made much of Fleet Street look foolish...)?
    People support giving the public a "final say". Theresa May should give the people what they want.
    She is, it was the people who voted for Brexit against the advice of the then PM.

    52% of voters voted Leave, less than 50% want a second referendum on this poll
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    CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 59,674
    The headline:

    Britons seeking EU citizenship more than doubles

    The lead: There were 6,555 Britons who acquired citizenship in another EU country in 2016, compared to 2,478 in 2015 — an increase of 165 per cent.

    And at the bottom of the article: the number of individuals from all countries seeking a British passport also rose by 27 per cent year-on-year to 149,372 in 2016

    https://www.ft.com/content/6e0dd592-3c05-11e8-b7e0-52972418fec4
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    Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 60,983
    Mr. Glenn, does the second vote count?

    People voted to Leave, not to Maybe Leave. Not only that, we wouldn't be having these calls* for another vote a few years after having had one, if Remain had won. The barrier for Leave being higher than Remain is one reason why people are so sceptical, and voted to leave (because they feared they'd never have another opportunity). If we'd been granted the referendum on Lisbon every party promised we could have put the brakes on the eurobus. Instead our options were to jump out or career over the cliff.

    *Ok, the odd hardliner, but they wouldn't be so widespread.
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    CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 59,674

    Anazina said:

    This is very shoddy reporting:

    Public backs fresh referendum to have 'final say' on terms of Brexit deal

    https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/brexit-second-referendum-theresa-may-final-deal-eu-autumn-negotiations-a8294986.html

    The public don't back a 'fresh referendum' - the oppose another 'vote' - but they do support a 'final say'......

    Good gracious the Central Office Brexit Rebuttal Unit is working overtime today!
    https://twitter.com/whatukthinks/status/983268192788369408
    Given that the poll was obviously conducted to help hone the message, I’m glad you are doing your bit to ensure it is always called a “final say”.
    And how do you propose to do that without having 'a vote' (which people don't want....)

    Bit difficult painting your opponents as mendacious scumbags when you yourself only publicise one half of your poll.....
    They didn't ask both questions to the same people. It was a test to see which question wording got more support.
    So why didn't the publicise both, instead of looking like knaves when YouGov published it (and made much of Fleet Street look foolish...)?
    Theresa May should give the people what they want.
    She is. Brexit.
  • Options
    williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 48,067

    Anazina said:

    This is very shoddy reporting:

    Public backs fresh referendum to have 'final say' on terms of Brexit deal

    https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/brexit-second-referendum-theresa-may-final-deal-eu-autumn-negotiations-a8294986.html

    The public don't back a 'fresh referendum' - the oppose another 'vote' - but they do support a 'final say'......

    Good gracious the Central Office Brexit Rebuttal Unit is working overtime today!
    https://twitter.com/whatukthinks/status/983268192788369408
    Given that the poll was obviously conducted to help hone the message, I’m glad you are doing your bit to ensure it is always called a “final say”.
    And how do you propose to do that without having 'a vote' (which people don't want....)

    Bit difficult painting your opponents as mendacious scumbags when you yourself only publicise one half of your poll.....
    They didn't ask both questions to the same people. It was a test to see which question wording got more support.
    So why didn't the publicise both, instead of looking like knaves when YouGov published it (and made much of Fleet Street look foolish...)?
    Theresa May should give the people what they want.
    She is. Brexit.
    Brexit was the will of the people. Is it still? There's only one way to find out...
    https://twitter.com/PippaCrerar/status/983333322955911168
  • Options
    CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 59,674

    Anazina said:

    This is very shoddy reporting:

    Public backs fresh referendum to have 'final say' on terms of Brexit deal

    https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/brexit-second-referendum-theresa-may-final-deal-eu-autumn-negotiations-a8294986.html

    The public don't back a 'fresh referendum' - the oppose another 'vote' - but they do support a 'final say'......

    Good gracious the Central Office Brexit Rebuttal Unit is working overtime today!
    https://twitter.com/whatukthinks/status/983268192788369408
    Given that the poll was obviously conducted to help hone the message, I’m glad you are doing your bit to ensure it is always called a “final say”.
    And how do you propose to do that without having 'a vote' (which people don't want....)

    Bit difficult painting your opponents as mendacious scumbags when you yourself only publicise one half of your poll.....
    They didn't ask both questions to the same people. It was a test to see which question wording got more support.
    So why didn't the publicise both, instead of looking like knaves when YouGov published it (and made much of Fleet Street look foolish...)?
    Theresa May should give the people what they want.
    She is. Brexit.
    Brexit was the will of the people. Is it still? There's only one way to find out...
    https://twitter.com/PippaCrerar/status/983333322955911168
    Yep.

    In the 2022 GE Campaign to rejoin. Should be a slam dunk, surely?
  • Options
    ReggieCideReggieCide Posts: 4,312
    not so huge if you start buying again tomorrow?
  • Options
    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 117,005

    Anazina said:

    This is very shoddy reporting:

    Public backs fresh referendum to have 'final say' on terms of Brexit deal

    https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/brexit-second-referendum-theresa-may-final-deal-eu-autumn-negotiations-a8294986.html

    The public don't back a 'fresh referendum' - the oppose another 'vote' - but they do support a 'final say'......

    Good gracious the Central Office Brexit Rebuttal Unit is working overtime today!
    https://twitter.com/whatukthinks/status/983268192788369408
    Given that the poll was obviously conducted to help hone the message, I’m glad you are doing your bit to ensure it is always called a “final say”.
    And how do you propose to do that without having 'a vote' (which people don't want....)

    Bit difficult painting your opponents as mendacious scumbags when you yourself only publicise one half of your poll.....
    They didn't ask both questions to the same people. It was a test to see which question wording got more support.
    So why didn't the publicise both, instead of looking like knaves when YouGov published it (and made much of Fleet Street look foolish...)?
    Theresa May should give the people what they want.
    She is. Brexit.
    Brexit was the will of the people. Is it still? There's only one way to find out...
    https://twitter.com/PippaCrerar/status/983333322955911168
    Both May and Corbyn agree that it is, so with the exception of the unlikely event of Corbyn being replaced as Labour leader by 2022 or the Tories picking a diehard Remainer to succeed May regardless of who wins the next general election Brexit means Brexit
  • Options
    malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 41,974
    ydoethur said:

    TOPPING said:

    ydoethur said:

    TOPPING said:

    ydoethur said:

    King John was worse. It is hard to find anyone quite so bad. Collectively, the Angeli dynasty might be a good comparison.

    I'm intrigued you put him below Richard III (who was basically similar in most crucial ways but didn't have the throne as long) or Henry VI.
    How very dare you I follow Josephine Tey in my assessment of Richard III

    :wink:
    I thought these days it was Philippa Langley, gazing dreamily into the eyes of his reconstructed skull and saying 'that's not the face of a tyrant, I'm sorry but it's not' as she patently falls in love with it/him live on air...
    Has she done anything else apart from her “project”?
    She wrote a book on it, although I haven't read it.

    In private life I believe she's a TV producer for BBC Scotland, although I could be wrong.
    She will have plenty of time for writing then , given how little they produce.
  • Options
    bigjohnowlsbigjohnowls Posts: 21,860

    Speaking to LBC’s Political Editor Theo Ushwerood, the Labour leader said:

    “I think she’s (Maureen Lipman) a great actress, a great comic and I hope she reflects on what she said.”

    https://order-order.com/2018/04/09/corbyn-tells-maureen-lipman/

    Interesting response.

    Maureen you have been very naughty and I think you should go away and think very carefully about what you have said and what you have done wrong...

    October 2014

    Maureen Lipman drops long-standing support for Labour party
    The prominent actor said she could not vote for ‘Chuka Harman Burnham Hunt Balls brigade’
  • Options
    CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 59,674

    Anazina said:

    This is very shoddy reporting:

    Public backs fresh referendum to have 'final say' on terms of Brexit deal

    https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/brexit-second-referendum-theresa-may-final-deal-eu-autumn-negotiations-a8294986.html

    The public don't back a 'fresh referendum' - the oppose another 'vote' - but they do support a 'final say'......

    Good gracious the Central Office Brexit Rebuttal Unit is working overtime today!
    https://twitter.com/whatukthinks/status/983268192788369408
    Given that the poll was obviously conducted to help hone the message, I’m glad you are doing your bit to ensure it is always called a “final say”.
    And how do you propose to do that without having 'a vote' (which people don't want....)

    Bit difficult painting your opponents as mendacious scumbags when you yourself only publicise one half of your poll.....
    They didn't ask both questions to the same people. It was a test to see which question wording got more support.
    So why didn't the publicise both, instead of looking like knaves when YouGov published it (and made much of Fleet Street look foolish...)?
    Theresa May should give the people what they want.
    She is. Brexit.
    https://twitter.com/PippaCrerar/status/983333322955911168
    Behr summed it up perfectly:

    Given how much is at stake, it is reasonable to expect Theresa May to sound confident that Brexit is the best available path for the country, but she cannot. She says instead that it is the only path, of which the best must be made. In an interview last week, she declined to say it would be “worth it”. She has never repudiated her vote for remain and refuses to say how she would vote in a hypothetical rerun.

    A more devious politician would simply pretend to be more enthusiastic. But May is no actor. She is a devout Christian, a clergyman’s daughter, which helps explain, I think, her ability to sustain total devotion to a plan, regardless of its material impact on the country. She finds comfort in submission to duty on a plane above the grubby temporal realm of economics and trade.


    https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2018/apr/03/i-see-no-sign-that-this-politics-of-devotion-is-doing-us-any-good

    In this case, May's 'higher plane' and 'duty' is to 'democracy'

  • Options
    ydoethurydoethur Posts: 67,238
    malcolmg said:

    ydoethur said:

    TOPPING said:

    ydoethur said:

    TOPPING said:

    ydoethur said:

    King John was worse. It is hard to find anyone quite so bad. Collectively, the Angeli dynasty might be a good comparison.

    I'm intrigued you put him below Richard III (who was basically similar in most crucial ways but didn't have the throne as long) or Henry VI.
    How very dare you I follow Josephine Tey in my assessment of Richard III

    :wink:
    I thought these days it was Philippa Langley, gazing dreamily into the eyes of his reconstructed skull and saying 'that's not the face of a tyrant, I'm sorry but it's not' as she patently falls in love with it/him live on air...
    Has she done anything else apart from her “project”?
    She wrote a book on it, although I haven't read it.

    In private life I believe she's a TV producer for BBC Scotland, although I could be wrong.
    She will have plenty of time for writing then , given how little they produce.
    If she never produces another thing, her performance in The King in the Car Park was one of the great comic turns of all time, although Johanna Haminga upstaged her in a brief cameo which gave new meaning to the word 'insane'.
  • Options
    RobDRobD Posts: 58,967

    Speaking to LBC’s Political Editor Theo Ushwerood, the Labour leader said:

    “I think she’s (Maureen Lipman) a great actress, a great comic and I hope she reflects on what she said.”

    https://order-order.com/2018/04/09/corbyn-tells-maureen-lipman/

    Interesting response.

    Maureen you have been very naughty and I think you should go away and think very carefully about what you have said and what you have done wrong...

    October 2014

    Maureen Lipman drops long-standing support for Labour party
    The prominent actor said she could not vote for ‘Chuka Harman Burnham Hunt Balls brigade’
    I think this is the story you meant to link to go with your quote:

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2014/oct/29/maureen-lipman-support-labour
  • Options
    CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,205

    Any party can suffer an unfortunate infestation; Labour's problem seems to be its ability to appoint / elect them to party roles.
    Labour seem to have developed a very humane trap to cope with their infestations, such that the thing doesn't actually trap anything at all....
    Why is anyone surprised? They've got a fruitloop as leader. Little wonder lots of mini-me fruitloops are joining the party.
  • Options
    williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 48,067

    In this case, May's 'higher plane' and 'duty' is to 'democracy'

    If she's operating on a higher plane, she will understand the democratic imperative to ensure the people have the final say on the deal.
  • Options
    Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 55,332

    Mr. Glenn, does the second vote count?

    People voted to Leave, not to Maybe Leave. Not only that, we wouldn't be having these calls* for another vote a few years after having had one, if Remain had won. The barrier for Leave being higher than Remain is one reason why people are so sceptical, and voted to leave (because they feared they'd never have another opportunity). If we'd been granted the referendum on Lisbon every party promised we could have put the brakes on the eurobus. Instead our options were to jump out or career over the cliff.

    *Ok, the odd hardliner, but they wouldn't be so widespread.

    I think it’s a storm in a teacup.

    In the medium-long term the U.K. will develop a voice, either formal or informal, to have a say in the development of any future EU regulations it may become party to due to our economic and political weight. In other words, the looser associate membership most Britons were really interested in.

    I don’t see that as hugely different to the existing set-up, where we are one of 28, albeit we won’t have a formal weighted voting number that’s tallied and declared at the end.
  • Options
    Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 55,332

    Mr. Doethur, I'm unfamiliar with Richard III/Henry VI. I think the early 15th century is quite modern enough.

    Mr. Topping, neither of John's immediate predecessors were so unpopular as him. His presence appears to have been more a cause of concern than delight.

    I think Prince Charles will do to the Commonwealth Realms what King John did for his territories in France.
  • Options
    tlg86tlg86 Posts: 25,190
    Given that a shrine to Lee Rigby was removed (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-42894783) why the **** has a shrine to that burgler in Hither Green not been removed (https://tinyurl.com/ybl5aaax)?
  • Options
    DavidLDavidL Posts: 51,306
    I

    The headline:

    Britons seeking EU citizenship more than doubles

    The lead: There were 6,555 Britons who acquired citizenship in another EU country in 2016, compared to 2,478 in 2015 — an increase of 165 per cent.

    And at the bottom of the article: the number of individuals from all countries seeking a British passport also rose by 27 per cent year-on-year to 149,372 in 2016

    https://www.ft.com/content/6e0dd592-3c05-11e8-b7e0-52972418fec4

    It really is hilarious.
  • Options
    CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 59,674

    In this case, May's 'higher plane' and 'duty' is to 'democracy'

    If she's operating on a higher plane, she will understand the democratic imperative to ensure the people have the final say on the deal.
    The people have already had two says - the referendum and GE17 - and are clear they don’t want another “vote”.

    If you were hoping for “two out of three” you’ve already lost two....
  • Options
    williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 48,067

    In the medium-long term the U.K. will develop a voice, either formal or informal, to have a say in the development of any future EU regulations it may become party to due to our economic and political weight. In other words, the looser associate membership most Britons were really interested in.

    I don’t see that as hugely different to the existing set-up, where we are one of 28, albeit we won’t have a formal weighted voting number that’s tallied and declared at the end.

    How much say did we have in the much smaller EEC's policies during the 60s?
  • Options
    FloaterFloater Posts: 14,195
    It is Zero Hedge.... perhaps a message being sent
  • Options
    DecrepitJohnLDecrepitJohnL Posts: 13,300

    Behr summed it up perfectly:

    Given how much is at stake, it is reasonable to expect Theresa May to sound confident that Brexit is the best available path for the country, but she cannot. She says instead that it is the only path, of which the best must be made. In an interview last week, she declined to say it would be “worth it”. She has never repudiated her vote for remain and refuses to say how she would vote in a hypothetical rerun.

    A more devious politician would simply pretend to be more enthusiastic. But May is no actor. She is a devout Christian, a clergyman’s daughter, which helps explain, I think, her ability to sustain total devotion to a plan, regardless of its material impact on the country. She finds comfort in submission to duty on a plane above the grubby temporal realm of economics and trade.


    https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2018/apr/03/i-see-no-sign-that-this-politics-of-devotion-is-doing-us-any-good

    In this case, May's 'higher plane' and 'duty' is to 'democracy'

    Mentioning that sent me to Wikipedia to look for other offspring of the manse in Number 10. Recently both May and Brown, of course, and Mrs Thatcher was as good as. Otherwise we need to go back to Bonar Law. Lloyd George's father was a Sunday school teacher which might count.
  • Options
    You do wonder just how much longer it will be before there is a widespread boycott of the World Cup.

    Hope you can get a refund Dr Fox
  • Options
    FloaterFloater Posts: 14,195
    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2018/04/09/donald-trump-says-major-decision-coming-syria-next-24-48-hours/

    There may be trouble ahead.....

    Did Russia say they would retaliate if USA took action against Syria again?
  • Options
    DecrepitJohnLDecrepitJohnL Posts: 13,300
    edited April 2018
    Is it huge? Where is rcs when we need him? Since Trump is already budgeting for a trillion dollar deficit, will anyone even notice?
  • Options
    Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 55,332

    In the medium-long term the U.K. will develop a voice, either formal or informal, to have a say in the development of any future EU regulations it may become party to due to our economic and political weight. In other words, the looser associate membership most Britons were really interested in.

    I don’t see that as hugely different to the existing set-up, where we are one of 28, albeit we won’t have a formal weighted voting number that’s tallied and declared at the end.

    How much say did we have in the much smaller EEC's policies during the 60s?
    That was then, when we were still operating aspects of imperial preference.

    The world has moved on.
  • Options
    RobDRobD Posts: 58,967

    Is it huge? Where is rcs when we need him? Since Trump is already budgeting for a trillion dollar deficit, will anyone even notice?
    Someone has to buy that debt.
  • Options
    Ishmael_ZIshmael_Z Posts: 8,981

    Is it huge? Where is rcs when we need him? Since Trump is already budgeting for a trillion dollar deficit, will anyone even notice?
    It has been on the cards since January, and is not necessarily the beginning of the End Times

    https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2018-01-10/china-officials-are-said-to-view-treasuries-as-less-attractive
  • Options
    williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 48,067
    edited April 2018

    In the medium-long term the U.K. will develop a voice, either formal or informal, to have a say in the development of any future EU regulations it may become party to due to our economic and political weight. In other words, the looser associate membership most Britons were really interested in.

    I don’t see that as hugely different to the existing set-up, where we are one of 28, albeit we won’t have a formal weighted voting number that’s tallied and declared at the end.

    How much say did we have in the much smaller EEC's policies during the 60s?
    That was then, when we were still operating aspects of imperial preference.

    The world has moved on.
    By implication you think we will remain aligned with the EU anyway, so why would they want to cede any sovereignty to us without the obligations of membership?
  • Options
    JackWJackW Posts: 14,787
    Whilst it must be said that King John spent a deal of time within his English realm and watching his treasury sink in the Wash, it should also be noted that the English Kingdom existed prior to King Harold taking one in the eye at Hastings.
  • Options
    ydoethurydoethur Posts: 67,238
    JackW said:

    Whilst it must be said that King John spent a deal of time within his English realm and watching his treasury sink in the Wash, it should also be noted that the English Kingdom existed prior to King Harold taking one in the eye at Hastings.

    And of course the only Stuart who spent all her time in England was Anne...
  • Options
    Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 55,332

    In the medium-long term the U.K. will develop a voice, either formal or informal, to have a say in the development of any future EU regulations it may become party to due to our economic and political weight. In other words, the looser associate membership most Britons were really interested in.

    I don’t see that as hugely different to the existing set-up, where we are one of 28, albeit we won’t have a formal weighted voting number that’s tallied and declared at the end.

    How much say did we have in the much smaller EEC's policies during the 60s?
    That was then, when we were still operating aspects of imperial preference.

    The world has moved on.
    By implication you think we will remain aligned with the EU anyway, so why would they want to cede any sovereignty to us without the obligations of membership?
    That’s no secret. I’ve said on here since Day Onethat I think we will remain aligned with them in some areas; it’s clear on intercontinental transport, energy and on most goods standards that equivalence will be maintained.

    It will be fudged. They will say you have no formal votes, and we won’t. Meanwhile, representatives of our Government and our technocrats will continue to be consulted and involved behind closed doors, and influencing accordingly.

    The transition agreement is a canary in the coal mine with respect to this.
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    kle4kle4 Posts: 91,750
    I don't see how she would get the votes for it if they were asked.

    On leader ratings, it's another reason why Corbyn and his supporters won't care if they drop from the highs of the last year. They were a lot worse before and recovered in a campaign. It's not guaranteed it would happen again, but they have good reason to believe it might.
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    JackWJackW Posts: 14,787
    ydoethur said:

    JackW said:

    Whilst it must be said that King John spent a deal of time within his English realm and watching his treasury sink in the Wash, it should also be noted that the English Kingdom existed prior to King Harold taking one in the eye at Hastings.

    And of course the only Stuart who spent all her time in England was Anne...
    Not so.

    As Lady Anne she spent time in the Netherlands and almost a year in Scotland.
  • Options
    YorkcityYorkcity Posts: 4,382

    Speaking to LBC’s Political Editor Theo Ushwerood, the Labour leader said:

    “I think she’s (Maureen Lipman) a great actress, a great comic and I hope she reflects on what she said.”

    https://order-order.com/2018/04/09/corbyn-tells-maureen-lipman/

    Interesting response.

    Maureen you have been very naughty and I think you should go away and think very carefully about what you have said and what you have done wrong...

    October 2014

    Maureen Lipman drops long-standing support for Labour party
    The prominent actor said she could not vote for ‘Chuka Harman Burnham Hunt Balls brigade’
    She did not Support Milliband .
  • Options
    DavidLDavidL Posts: 51,306

    Is it huge? Where is rcs when we need him? Since Trump is already budgeting for a trillion dollar deficit, will anyone even notice?
    Well yes, Trump is hoping that the Chinese would as usual buy a fairly large proportion of the $1trn of loan notes he intends to issue. If they don't it will cost the US a significant sum because the interest rate price to sell that debt will go up.

    In the long run of course this is exactly what the US needs. The way in which China's huge surplus is converted into more treasury debt to fund more consumption and another year of China surplus has probably done more to damage US power than any other event since WW2. It has been truly disastrous for the US.
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    AnazinaAnazina Posts: 3,487
    Yorkcity said:

    Speaking to LBC’s Political Editor Theo Ushwerood, the Labour leader said:

    “I think she’s (Maureen Lipman) a great actress, a great comic and I hope she reflects on what she said.”

    https://order-order.com/2018/04/09/corbyn-tells-maureen-lipman/

    Interesting response.

    Maureen you have been very naughty and I think you should go away and think very carefully about what you have said and what you have done wrong...

    October 2014

    Maureen Lipman drops long-standing support for Labour party
    The prominent actor said she could not vote for ‘Chuka Harman Burnham Hunt Balls brigade’
    She did not Support Milliband .
    Yes, Lipman has resigned her Labour affiliation several times in the past few years. Only Lord Falconer has a more prolific record.
  • Options
    ydoethurydoethur Posts: 67,238
    JackW said:

    ydoethur said:

    JackW said:

    Whilst it must be said that King John spent a deal of time within his English realm and watching his treasury sink in the Wash, it should also be noted that the English Kingdom existed prior to King Harold taking one in the eye at Hastings.

    And of course the only Stuart who spent all her time in England was Anne...
    Not so.

    As Lady Anne she spent time in the Netherlands and almost a year in Scotland.
    Didn't realise she left England while she was queen. That does surprise me.
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    YorkcityYorkcity Posts: 4,382

    You do wonder just how much longer it will be before there is a widespread boycott of the World Cup.

    Hope you can get a refund Dr Fox

    The world cup should be held in England , the stadiums are fantastic .
  • Options
    ydoethurydoethur Posts: 67,238
    edited April 2018
    Anazina said:

    Yorkcity said:

    Speaking to LBC’s Political Editor Theo Ushwerood, the Labour leader said:

    “I think she’s (Maureen Lipman) a great actress, a great comic and I hope she reflects on what she said.”

    https://order-order.com/2018/04/09/corbyn-tells-maureen-lipman/

    Interesting response.

    Maureen you have been very naughty and I think you should go away and think very carefully about what you have said and what you have done wrong...

    October 2014

    Maureen Lipman drops long-standing support for Labour party
    The prominent actor said she could not vote for ‘Chuka Harman Burnham Hunt Balls brigade’
    She did not Support Milliband .
    Yes, Lipman has resigned her Labour affiliation several times in the past few years. Only Lord Falconer has a more prolific record.
    Has she resigned as often as Cresson's commission yet?
  • Options
    DavidLDavidL Posts: 51,306
    Anazina said:

    Yorkcity said:

    Speaking to LBC’s Political Editor Theo Ushwerood, the Labour leader said:

    “I think she’s (Maureen Lipman) a great actress, a great comic and I hope she reflects on what she said.”

    https://order-order.com/2018/04/09/corbyn-tells-maureen-lipman/

    Interesting response.

    Maureen you have been very naughty and I think you should go away and think very carefully about what you have said and what you have done wrong...

    October 2014

    Maureen Lipman drops long-standing support for Labour party
    The prominent actor said she could not vote for ‘Chuka Harman Burnham Hunt Balls brigade’
    She did not Support Milliband .
    Yes, Lipman has resigned her Labour affiliation several times in the past few years. Only Lord Falconer has a more prolific record.
    There is a difference between resigning from Labour and voting Tory. I think the latter is new.
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    FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 76,285
    Scott_P said:
    Jezza, the dicatators useful idiot....
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    The_ApocalypseThe_Apocalypse Posts: 7,830
    Re David Herdson’s earlier post on leaders’ ratings: I think William_H has a point. That Corbyn went into that GE with such a low rating, initially indicated that the impression of him was fixed. That the ratings of not only Corbyn but also May changed over campaign, and also since the campaign indicates that the political wisdom that the public makes up its mind about leaders early on does hold this time.

    Basing what will happen in 2022 on ratings now is therefore a bit misguided IMO, given we don’t know how (or if) Corbyn’s or May’s (and indeed whoever succeeds her) ratings will change throughout the years. That Corbyn managed to survive all the chaos and turmoil of the 2015-17 period which included a leadership contest, shadow cabinet resignations, scandals on all of his controversial views/associations e.g. Livingstone antisemitism scandal means that we cannot assume that the latest issues with Salisbury and Russia will make a permenant dent in his ratings.

    On the issue of a centrist party: I don’t know why people believe that just because it’s a Corbynista dismissing/criticising it, it must be out of fear. Even those such as Jane Merrick (who is pretty much a liberal centrist from what I’ve seen of her views on twitter) don’t buy into this idea that we need a new centrist party. There are two good pieces of analysis here which explain the issues with a new centrist party:

    Thread here: https://twitter.com/sundersays/status/982720849408155648?s=20
    (Which points out, as Stephen Bush did yesterday that there are many more voters of an authoritarian nature who feel underrepresented than there are centrists).

    And analysis by Anthony Wells: http://ukpollingreport.co.uk/blog/archives/9987
    Wells notes here the problem of how the commentariat appear to define centrism versus how the public might define it. I was talking to my dad today who reminded me that he sees himself as a centrist, he votes UKIP (or did, anyway - even the incident with Jo Marney was too much for him). He previously voted Labour, is a Brexiteer, cares the most about immigration, hates the Tories, doesn’t think Corbyn is that left and thinks that the recent stories about antisemitism in Labour are a Blairite plot. That certainly isn’t what many see as centrist.
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    Yorkcity said:

    You do wonder just how much longer it will be before there is a widespread boycott of the World Cup.

    Hope you can get a refund Dr Fox

    The world cup should be held in England , the stadiums are fantastic .
    Absolutely

    I went to see Brazil v Portugal at Goodison last time - Pele v Eusebio.
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    JackWJackW Posts: 14,787
    ydoethur said:

    JackW said:

    ydoethur said:

    JackW said:

    Whilst it must be said that King John spent a deal of time within his English realm and watching his treasury sink in the Wash, it should also be noted that the English Kingdom existed prior to King Harold taking one in the eye at Hastings.

    And of course the only Stuart who spent all her time in England was Anne...
    Not so.

    As Lady Anne she spent time in the Netherlands and almost a year in Scotland.
    Didn't realise she left England while she was queen. That does surprise me.
    Not as Queen, which is why I noted Anne's style as "Lady Anne".
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    AnazinaAnazina Posts: 3,487

    Yorkcity said:

    You do wonder just how much longer it will be before there is a widespread boycott of the World Cup.

    Hope you can get a refund Dr Fox

    The world cup should be held in England , the stadiums are fantastic .
    Absolutely

    I went to see Brazil v Portugal at Goodison last time - Pele v Eusebio.
    In 66 I believe it was one city, one stadium and Goodison got the nod over Anfield. Would never happen today. At Euro 96 Anfield, Old Trafford, the City Ground and St James’ Park featured, among several others.
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    YorkcityYorkcity Posts: 4,382

    Yorkcity said:

    You do wonder just how much longer it will be before there is a widespread boycott of the World Cup.

    Hope you can get a refund Dr Fox

    The world cup should be held in England , the stadiums are fantastic .
    Absolutely

    I went to see Brazil v Portugal at Goodison last time - Pele v Eusebio.
    Big g , what a great memory .Two of the all time greats.Did you ever see George Best play ?
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    FloaterFloater Posts: 14,195

    Scott_P said:
    Jezza, the dicatators useful idiot....
    Russia and Syria anti US and West - hence his friends
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    DM_AndyDM_Andy Posts: 332
    imageThe dictator's useful idiot?
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    FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 76,285
    edited April 2018
    DM_Andy said:

    imageThe dictator's useful idiot?

    A bit harsh to call Assad a useful idiot....
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    Anazina said:

    Yorkcity said:

    You do wonder just how much longer it will be before there is a widespread boycott of the World Cup.

    Hope you can get a refund Dr Fox

    The world cup should be held in England , the stadiums are fantastic .
    Absolutely

    I went to see Brazil v Portugal at Goodison last time - Pele v Eusebio.
    In 66 I believe it was one city, one stadium and Goodison got the nod over Anfield. Would never happen today. At Euro 96 Anfield, Old Trafford, the City Ground and St James’ Park featured, among several others.
    Yes I am sure you are right. But Yorkcity is right - lots of great venues in England to stage a World Cup
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    tlg86tlg86 Posts: 25,190
    DM_Andy said:

    imageThe dictator's useful idiot?

    Was that today, this year, this decade?
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    DavidLDavidL Posts: 51,306

    Scott_P said:
    Jezza, the dicatators useful idiot....
    Really just an idiot. We are way, way past the time of asking for cease fires. Assad has won. It is over. The longer the opposition have any delusions about the west actually helping them the more people will die. Corbyn is completely wrong to say that this will be resolved by everyone getting around the table. It will be resolved by boots, bayonets and bombs on the ground and fairly soon at that. Ultimately, humiliating though it is for the west, any kind of result is probably better than prolonged warfare.

    This has been inevitable since the west backed out of backing the opposition and the Russians and Iranians tipped the scales so heavily in Assad's favour. Whether the opposition were people we would really want to win is another very complicated question but it is academic. We made our choice years ago and we have to live with it. Having someone guilty of war crimes win is just salt in the wounds.
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    Yorkcity said:

    Yorkcity said:

    You do wonder just how much longer it will be before there is a widespread boycott of the World Cup.

    Hope you can get a refund Dr Fox

    The world cup should be held in England , the stadiums are fantastic .
    Absolutely

    I went to see Brazil v Portugal at Goodison last time - Pele v Eusebio.
    Big g , what a great memory .Two of the all time greats.Did you ever see George Best play ?
    Yes - throughout all his career. Was a season ticket holder for many years but surrendered it a few years ago but still had the pleasure of several meetings with Fergie and two with my hero, Sir Bobby Charlton.

    Shame in the World Cup tie Portugal took out Pele fairly early. He was the most famous footballer in the World at the time
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