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  • welshowlwelshowl Posts: 4,460
    edited April 2018
    @FF43

    FPT

    If Single Market with mutually agreed restrictions on FOM - something as you suggest like a job offer, (though the devil’s in the detail - e.g. hurdles of amounts of £X tax and NI to pay verified by HMRC, rather than car washing for five quid cash in Tesco’s car park?) why didn’t they offer it to Cameron?He’d have cantered home.

    To offer that now, breaks their mantra of “the four indivisible freedoms”, and suggests they would offer that concession only because we’d at long last convinced them we really were going. I just don’t see it from all they have said.

    If May caves on FOM to the extent of Single Market FOM ie no change from now, it will surely have all the aerodynamics of half a house brick on the Tory back benches too. She won’t last five minutes.

    That said I think it’s clear that the EU are really rather keen that we stay in the “system” ( eg all the “you can still move your red lines till Dec 2020” talk), because they fear a rival (that might undercut them), the gradual loss of business as we buy more stuff from elsewhere, (especially food products I’d venture), and our acting as an alternative beacon to anyone else who gets discontented in the future. Therein lies our leverage, and I’d expect “concentric carrots” ( if that makes sense!) from their negotiation positions ie the closer we are economically the more amenable they will try and be within their limits.

  • DavidL said:

    Arsenal v Atletico Madrid in Europa league semi final

    POAWWAS
    I think Harry Kane's going to claim he scored the winner in that tie.
    Are you still Salahvating over the golden boot? He looks pretty nailed on now. Pity the Russians are going to poison him.
    So long as Salah scores the winner in the Champions League Final I don't care who wins the golden boot.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 50,762
    Floater said:

    There you go Jezza

    Russian foreign minister has claimed the suspected chemical attack in Douma last weekend was fabricated with the help of an unnamed foreign state actor.

    Speaking to reporters in Moscow, he said that 'intelligence agencies of a state that is now striving to spearhead a Russo-phobic campaign were involved in that fabrication'.

    He confirmed Russian experts had been to the city of Douma and found no proof that chemical weapons had been used.

    Do the scientists in Porton Down get a productivity bonus? We need to know.

    Also finding ways of masking the presence of chlorine to defeat the Russian investigators is an achievement worthy of public recognition.
  • AnazinaAnazina Posts: 3,487
    sarissa said:

    DavidL said:

    FPT

    This is Wales Conservative Policy since October 2017

    (Long before Corbyn came up with his hair brained conditional policy)

    Welsh Conservatives have pledged to give free bus travel to all 16-24 year olds in Wales, and have urged Labour ministers to do the same.

    The Green Card - which the Tories said could cost up to £25m a year - would also give a third off rail tickets.

    Education spokesman Darren Millar said young people suffered high car insurance and the lowest wages.

    The Welsh Government dismissed the plan as "fantasy economics", saying it would consult on a new discount travel pass.

    Mr Millar said the Welsh Conservatives' "exciting offer for young people" would also protect the environment and help save local bus routes from the axe. His colleague Russell George, the Tories' economy spokesman, added that travel costs could be a "huge barrier" to education, training and job opportunities.

    A Welsh Government spokesman said: "These Tory proposals have been made up on the back of a fag packet.

    "To think you can provide 350,000 people with free bus travel and a third off rail fares for £25m is fantasy

    That's £71.42 a head per annum or £1.37 a week. That seems...optimistic.
    How many of the olde rof thoe young people already have cars though? Or live in areas with a near non-existent bus service? I dunno, but I suspect much of the bus travel useage will be focused on a few big towns and cities, where the most profitable routes could still survive with a somewhat reduced revenue.

    And who knows, promoted by images of Corbyn sat on the floor of a bus, they could become a "cool" means of transport....
    The Scottish Government's free bus pass for over 1.3 million 60s, a good number of which are still in employment or active, costs approx £140-150 per person per year. It pays the bus operators 56.9% of the adult single fare for the trip.

    On a pro-rata basis it looks like the cost might be double the figure suggested, but still not much for a measure likely to be very popular.
    Indeed – the bus idea is a clever move simply because the measure is very high profile and popular yet costs peanuts relatively to general public spending. If the Tories were so worried about national revenues versus expenditure, they wouldn't have decided to force down growth by promising to remove the UK from the Single Market. Duh!
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 49,614
    Anazina said:

    sarissa said:

    DavidL said:

    FPT

    This is Wales Conservative Policy since October 2017

    (Long before Corbyn came up with his hair brained conditional policy)

    Welsh Conservatives have pledged to give free bus travel to all 16-24 year olds in Wales, and have urged Labour ministers to do the same.

    The Green Card - which the Tories said could cost up to £25m a year - would also give a third off rail tickets.

    Education spokesman Darren Millar said young people suffered high car insurance and the lowest wages.

    The Welsh Government dismissed the plan as "fantasy economics", saying it would consult on a new discount travel pass.

    Mr Millar said the Welsh Conservatives' "exciting offer for young people" would also protect the environment and help save local bus routes from the axe. His colleague Russell George, the Tories' economy spokesman, added that travel costs could be a "huge barrier" to education, training and job opportunities.

    A Welsh Government spokesman said: "These Tory proposals have been made up on the back of a fag packet.

    "To think you can provide 350,000 people with free bus travel and a third off rail fares for £25m is fantasy

    That's £71.42 a head per annum or £1.37 a week. That seems...optimistic.
    How many of the olde rof thoe young people already have cars though? Or live in areas with a near non-existent bus service? I dunno, but I suspect much of the bus travel useage will be focused on a few big towns and cities, where the most profitable routes could still survive with a somewhat reduced revenue.

    And who knows, promoted by images of Corbyn sat on the floor of a bus, they could become a "cool" means of transport....
    The Scottish Government's free bus pass for over 1.3 million 60s, a good number of which are still in employment or active, costs approx £140-150 per person per year. It pays the bus operators 56.9% of the adult single fare for the trip.

    On a pro-rata basis it looks like the cost might be double the figure suggested, but still not much for a measure likely to be very popular.
    Indeed – the bus idea is a clever move simply because the measure is very high profile and popular yet costs peanuts relatively to general public spending. If the Tories were so worried about national revenues versus expenditure, they wouldn't have decided to force down growth by promising to remove the UK from the Single Market. Duh!
    The figure quoted yesterday was £1.5bn, which given Corbyn’s usual accuracy with numbers is probably an order of magnitude out.

    But hey kids, you still won’t be able to get a mortgage, so have a free bus pass instead and someone else will pay for it.
  • AnazinaAnazina Posts: 3,487
    Sandpit said:

    Anazina said:

    sarissa said:

    DavidL said:

    FPT

    This is Wales Conservative Policy since October 2017

    (Long before Corbyn came up with his hair brained conditional policy)

    Welsh Conservatives have pledged to give free bus travel to all 16-24 year olds in Wales, and have urged Labour ministers to do the same.

    The Green Card - which the Tories said could cost up to £25m a year - would also give a third off rail tickets.

    Education spokesman Darren Millar said young people suffered high car insurance and the lowest wages.

    The Welsh Government dismissed the plan as "fantasy economics", saying it would consult on a new discount travel pass.

    Mr Millar said the Welsh Conservatives' "exciting offer for young people" would also protect the environment and help save local bus routes from the axe. His colleague Russell George, the Tories' economy spokesman, added that travel costs could be a "huge barrier" to education, training and job opportunities.

    A Welsh Government spokesman said: "These Tory proposals have been made up on the back of a fag packet.

    "To think you can provide 350,000 people with free bus travel and a third off rail fares for £25m is fantasy

    That's £71.42 a head per annum or £1.37 a week. That seems...optimistic.
    snip
    The Scottish Government's free bus pass for over 1.3 million 60s, a good number of which are still in employment or active, costs approx £140-150 per person per year. It pays the bus operators 56.9% of the adult single fare for the trip.

    On a pro-rata basis it looks like the cost might be double the figure suggested, but still not much for a measure likely to be very popular.
    Indeed – the bus idea is a clever move simply because the measure is very high profile and popular yet costs peanuts relatively to general public spending. If the Tories were so worried about national revenues versus expenditure, they wouldn't have decided to force down growth by promising to remove the UK from the Single Market. Duh!
    The figure quoted yesterday was £1.5bn, which given Corbyn’s usual accuracy with numbers is probably an order of magnitude out.

    But hey kids, you still won’t be able to get a mortgage, so have a free bus pass instead and someone else will pay for it.
    Compare and contrast to the cost of leaving the Single Market.

    The Tory Party lost any lingering territory on economic competence when it decided to ignore the thoughts of at least half of the country in the pursuit of flag waving jingoism.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 49,614
    Anazina said:

    Sandpit said:

    Anazina said:

    sarissa said:

    DavidL said:

    FPT

    This is Wales Conservative Policy since October 2017

    (Long before Corbyn came up with his hair brained conditional policy)

    Welsh Conservatives have pledged to give free bus travel to all 16-24 year olds in Wales, and have urged Labour ministers to do the same.

    The Green Card - which the Tories said could cost up to £25m a year - would also give a third off rail tickets.
    .

    A Welsh Government spokesman said: "These Tory proposals have been made up on the back of a fag packet.

    "To think you can provide 350,000 people with free bus travel and a third off rail fares for £25m is fantasy

    That's £71.42 a head per annum or £1.37 a week. That seems...optimistic.
    snip
    The Scottish Government's free bus pass for over 1.3 million 60s, a good number of which are still in employment or active, costs approx £140-150 per person per year. It pays the bus operators 56.9% of the adult single fare for the trip.

    On a pro-rata basis it looks like the cost might be double the figure suggested, but still not much for a measure likely to be very popular.
    Indeed – the bus idea is a clever move simply because the measure is very high profile and popular yet costs peanuts relatively to general public spending. If the Tories were so worried about national revenues versus expenditure, they wouldn't have decided to force down growth by promising to remove the UK from the Single Market. Duh!
    The figure quoted yesterday was £1.5bn, which given Corbyn’s usual accuracy with numbers is probably an order of magnitude out.

    But hey kids, you still won’t be able to get a mortgage, so have a free bus pass instead and someone else will pay for it.
    Compare and contrast to the cost of leaving the Single Market.

    The Tory Party lost any lingering territory on economic competence when it decided to ignore the thoughts of at least half of the country in the pursuit of flag waving jingoism.
    Well there’s the £11bn saving in not being members of the EU for a start.

    There’s also the opportunity cost of remaining in the Single Market, restricting our trade agreements to be centred on an ever-shrinking region as a proportion of world trade.
  • AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 30,340
    Anazina said:

    sarissa said:

    DavidL said:

    FPT

    This is Wales Conservative Policy since October 2017

    (Long before Corbyn came up with his hair brained conditional policy)

    Welsh Conservatives have pledged to give free bus travel to all 16-24 year olds in Wales, and have urged Labour ministers to do the same.

    The Green Card - which the Tories said could cost up to £25m a year - would also give a third off rail tickets.

    Education spokesman Darren Millar said young people suffered high car insurance and the lowest wages.

    The Welsh Government dismissed the plan as "fantasy economics", saying it would consult on a new discount travel pass.

    Mr Millar said the Welsh Conservatives' "exciting offer for young people" would also protect the environment and help save local bus routes from the axe. His colleague Russell George, the Tories' economy spokesman, added that travel costs could be a "huge barrier" to education, training and job opportunities.

    A Welsh Government spokesman said: "These Tory proposals have been made up on the back of a fag packet.

    "To think you can provide 350,000 people with free bus travel and a third off rail fares for £25m is fantasy

    That's £71.42 a head per annum or £1.37 a week. That seems...optimistic.
    How many of the olde rof thoe young people already have cars though? Or live in areas with a near non-existent bus service? I dunno, but I suspect much of the bus travel useage will be focused on a few big towns and cities, where the most profitable routes could still survive with a somewhat reduced revenue.

    And who knows, promoted by images of Corbyn sat on the floor of a bus, they could become a "cool" means of transport....
    The Scottish Government's free bus pass for over 1.3 million 60s, a good number of which are still in employment or active, costs approx £140-150 per person per year. It pays the bus operators 56.9% of the adult single fare for the trip.

    On a pro-rata basis it looks like the cost might be double the figure suggested, but still not much for a measure likely to be very popular.
    Indeed – the bus idea is a clever move simply because the measure is very high profile and popular yet costs peanuts relatively to general public spending. If the Tories were so worried about national revenues versus expenditure, they wouldn't have decided to force down growth by promising to remove the UK from the Single Market. Duh!
    And there's certainly an obvious contrast to be drawn between the government's unwillingness to meet younger people's bus fares and its willingness to spend large sums on dropping ordnance in Syria.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,709
    edited April 2018
    Anazina said:

    Sandpit said:

    Anazina said:

    sarissa said:

    DavidL said:

    FPT

    This is Wales Conservative Policy since October 2017

    (Long before Corbyn came up with his hair brained conditional policy)

    Welsh Conservatives have pledged to give free bus travel to all 16-24 year olds in Wales, and have urged Labour ministers to do the same.

    The Green Card - which the Tories said could cost up to £25m a year - would also give a third off rail tickets.

    Education spokesman Darren Millar said young people suffered high car insurance and the lowest wages.

    The Welsh Government dismissed the plan as "fantasy economics", saying it would consult on a new discount travel pass.

    Mr Millar said the Welsh Conservatives' "exciting offer for young people" would also protect the environment and help save local bus routes from the axe. His colleague Russell George, the Tories' economy spokesman, added that travel costs could be a "huge barrier" to education, training and job opportunities.

    A Welsh Government spokesman said: "These Tory proposals have been made up on the back of a fag packet.

    "To think you can provide 350,000 people with free bus travel and a third off rail fares for £25m is fantasy

    That's £71.42 a head per annum or £1.37 a week. That seems...optimistic.
    snip
    The Scottish Government's free bus pass for over 1.3 million 60s, a good number of which are still in employment or active, costs approx £140-150 per person per year. It pays the bus operators 56.9% of the adult single fare for the trip.

    On a pro-rata basis it looks like the cost might be double the figure suggested, but still not much for a measure likely to be very popular.
    Indeed – the bus idea is a clever move simply because the measure is very high pre Market. Duh!
    The figure quoted yesterday was £1.5bn, which given Corbyn’s usual accuracy with numbers is probably an order of magnitude out.

    But hey kids, you still won’t be able to get a mortgage, so have a free bus pass instead and someone else will pay for it.
    Compare and contrast to the cost of leaving the Single Market.

    The Tory Party lost any lingering territory on economic competence when it decided to ignore the thoughts of at least half of the country in the pursuit of flag waving jingoism.
    Actually over half the voters voted Leave and a comfortable majority of Tories and for most Leave voters ending free movement was pivotal to that which precludes staying in the Single Market post Brexit, something even Corbyn agrees with May on even if he wants to stay in a Customs Union
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 113,957
    edited April 2018
    Oooh

    Liverpool/Roma semi - First leg at Anfield
  • AnazinaAnazina Posts: 3,487
    HYUFD said:

    Anazina said:

    Sandpit said:

    Anazina said:

    sarissa said:

    DavidL said:

    FPT

    This is Wales Conservative Policy since October 2017

    (Long before Corbyn came up with his hair brained conditional policy)

    Welsh Conservatives have pledged to give free bus travel to all 16-24 year olds in Wales, and have urged Labour ministers to do the same.

    The Green Card - which the Tories said could cost up to £25m a year - would also give a third off rail tickets.

    Education spokesman Darren Millar said young people suffered high car insurance and the lowest wages.

    The Welsh Government dismissed the plan as "fantasy economics", saying it would consult on a new discount travel pass.

    Mr Millar said the Welsh Conservatives' "exciting offer for young people" would also protect the environment and help save local bus routes from the axe. His colleague Russell George, the Tories' economy spokesman, added that travel costs could be a "huge barrier" to education, training and job opportunities.

    A Welsh Government spokesman said: "These Tory proposals have been made up on the back of a fag packet.

    "To think you can provide 350,000 people with free bus travel and a third off rail fares for £25m is fantasy

    That's £71.42 a head per annum or £1.37 a week. That seems...optimistic.
    snip
    The Scottish Government's free bus pass for over 1.3 million 60s, a good number of which are still in employment or active, costs approx £140-150 per person per year. It pays the bus operators 56.9% of the adult single fare for the trip.

    On a pro-rata basis it looks like the cost might be double the figure suggested, but still not much for a measure likely to be very popular.
    Indeed – the bus idea is a clever move simply because the measure is very high pre Market. Duh!
    The figure quoted yesterday was £1.5bn, which given Corbyn’s usual accuracy with numbers is probably an order of magnitude out.

    But hey kids, you still won’t be able to get a mortgage, so have a free bus pass instead and someone else will pay for it.
    Compare and contrast to the cost of leaving the Single Market.

    The Tory Party lost any lingering territory on economic competence when it decided to ignore the thoughts of at least half of the country in the pursuit of flag waving jingoism.
    Actually over half the voters voted Leave and a comfortable majority of Tories and for most Leave voters ending free movement was pivotal to that which precludes staying in the Single Market post Brexit, something even Corbyn agrees with May on even if he wants to stay in a Customs Union
    Cometh the moment, cometh the man.
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 35,765
    Anazina said:

    Sandpit said:

    Anazina said:

    sarissa said:

    DavidL said:

    FPT

    This is Wales Conservative Policy since October 2017

    (Long before Corbyn came up with his hair brained conditional policy)

    Welsh Conservatives have pledged to give free bus travel to all 16-24 year olds in Wales, and have urged Labour ministers to do the same.

    The Green Card - which the Tories said could cost up to £25m a year - would also give a third off rail tickets.

    Education spokesman Darren Millar said young people suffered high car insurance and the lowest wages.

    The Welsh Government dismissed the plan as "fantasy economics", saying it would consult on a new discount travel pass.

    Mr Millar said the Welsh Conservatives' "exciting offer for young people" would also protect the environment and help save local bus routes from the axe. His colleague Russell George, the Tories' economy spokesman, added that travel costs could be a "huge barrier" to education, training and job opportunities.

    A Welsh Government spokesman said: "These Tory proposals have been made up on the back of a fag packet.

    "To think you can provide 350,000 people with free bus travel and a third off rail fares for £25m is fantasy

    That's £71.42 a head per annum or £1.37 a week. That seems...optimistic.
    snip
    The Scottish Government's free bus pass for over 1.3 million 60s, a good number of which are still in employment or active, costs approx £140-150 per person per year. It pays the bus operators 56.9% of the adult single fare for the trip.

    On a pro-rata basis it looks like the cost might be double the figure suggested, but still not much for a measure likely to be very popular.
    .
    Compare and contrast to the cost of leaving the Single Market.

    The Tory Party lost any lingering territory on economic competence when it decided to ignore the thoughts of at least half of the country in the pursuit of flag waving jingoism.
    Though it seems that the Conservatives are far preferred on economic issues by the public in general. Admittedly, that could be a reflection on Corbyn rather than the Conservatives.
  • AnazinaAnazina Posts: 3,487
    Sandpit said:

    Anazina said:

    Sandpit said:

    Anazina said:

    sarissa said:

    DavidL said:

    FPT

    This is Wales Conservative Policy since October 2017

    (Long before Corbyn came up with his hair brained conditional policy)

    Welsh Conservatives have pledged to give free bus travel to all 16-24 year olds in Wales, and have urged Labour ministers to do the same.

    The Green Card - which the Tories said could cost up to £25m a year - would also give a third off rail tickets.
    .

    A Welsh Government spokesman said: "These Tory proposals have been made up on the back of a fag packet.

    "To think you can provide 350,000 people with free bus travel and a third off rail fares for £25m is fantasy

    That's £71.42 a head per annum or £1.37 a week. That seems...optimistic.
    snip
    The Scottish Government's free bus pass for over 1.3 million 60s, a good number of which are still in employment or active, costs approx £140-150 per person per year. It pays the bus operators 56.9% of the adult single fare for the trip.

    On a pro-rata basis it looks like the cost might be double the figure suggested, but still not much for a measure likely to be very popular.
    Indeed – the bus idea is a clever move simply because the measure is very high profile and popular yet costs peanuts relatively to general public spending. If the Tories were so worried about national revenues versus expenditure, they wouldn't have decided to force down growth by promising to remove the UK from the Single Market. Duh!
    The figure quoted yesterday was £1.5bn, which given Corbyn’s usual accuracy with numbers is probably an order of magnitude out.

    But hey kids, you still won’t be able to get a mortgage, so have a free bus pass instead and someone else will pay for it.
    Compare and contrast to the cost of leaving the Single Market.

    The Tory Party lost any lingering territory on economic competence when it decided to ignore the thoughts of at least half of the country in the pursuit of flag waving jingoism.
    Well there’s the £11bn saving in not being members of the EU for a start.

    There’s also the opportunity cost of remaining in the Single Market, restricting our trade agreements to be centred on an ever-shrinking region as a proportion of world trade.
    LOL.
  • AnazinaAnazina Posts: 3,487
    There must be something wrong with the system. I did not write what is attributed below to me. Sean F wrote that.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 49,614

    Oooh

    Liverpool/Roma semi - First leg at Anfield

    Better than Real or Bayern I think.

    Great to see Shevchenko doing the draw - I met him once, didn’t have the balls to ask him to sign my Liverpool shirt with “Istanbul 05” on the back!
  • AnazinaAnazina Posts: 3,487
    Are any of the 'Liverpool' fans on here actually from Liverpool? Or anywhere near it?
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 60,933
    Betting Post

    F1: backed Raikkonen to be top 3 in third practice at 11 (12 with boost, fifth the odds top 3 each way):
    http://enormo-haddock.blogspot.co.uk/2018/04/china-pre-qualifying-2018.html

    He's been 2nd in both sessions so far. It looks like Ferrari and Mercedes are very close. Rain 50/50 but expected to be very light so won't alter things substantially. Not guaranteed but his odds should be half (or less) what they are.

    Also, check the blog for a statistically interesting thingummyjig at the start.
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 60,933
    F1: just saw this on Ladbrokes as a special:
    "Hamilton Pole and win the race, Bottas and Vettel to finish 2nd/3rd in any order and Stroll to finish in the points"

    It's 71. Stroll is 15 for points. Hamilton has a great record in China (if he can't win here then alarm bells will ring in Mercedes HQ), though pole could be tricky. The top three could well be as described.

    Stroll for points is likely the killer, though. Not backing it myself.
  • StereotomyStereotomy Posts: 4,092
    Anazina said:

    There must be something wrong with the system. I did not write what is attributed below to me. Sean F wrote that.

    Vanilla really is utter shit. Are there no better alternatives?
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 50,762
    Anazina said:

    There must be something wrong with the system. I did not write what is attributed below to me. Sean F wrote that.

    And there was me thinking that you were finally coming to the dark side.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 50,762
    Vince finding county bowling rather more to his liking than test match bowling. Currently 62 at a strike rate of 106.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 76,274
    DavidL said:

    Vince finding county bowling rather more to his liking than test match bowling. Currently 62 at a strike rate of 106.

    Vince = modern day ramps
  • TheWhiteRabbitTheWhiteRabbit Posts: 12,387
    I remember arguing passionately with iSam that - regardless of racism per se - Powell was simply wrong. The streets had not become rivers of blood.

    But iSam was insistent Powell was right, just premature about when; within fifteen years from now if not from then we would have mass civil disturbance.
  • YorkcityYorkcity Posts: 4,382


    To be fair all governments can always find the money for war.This war we are about to engage in , should have a vote in parliament as it needs to be planned and what we hope to be achieved outlined.We are not under immediate attack , so there should be a vote.
  • AnazinaAnazina Posts: 3,487

    I remember arguing passionately with iSam that - regardless of racism per se - Powell was simply wrong. The streets had not become rivers of blood.

    But iSam was insistent Powell was right, just premature about when; within fifteen years from now if not from then we would have mass civil disturbance.

    He sounds like a charming character.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 76,274
    edited April 2018

    I remember arguing passionately with iSam that - regardless of racism per se - Powell was simply wrong. The streets had not become rivers of blood.

    But iSam was insistent Powell was right, just premature about when; within fifteen years from now if not from then we would have mass civil disturbance.

    I find it rather alarming that people are seeking for the bbc not to air this speech (with extensive commentary). Should we also never to be allowed to hear a Hitler, Stalin, Mao, etc speech and have them rightly analyzed / criticed in order to learn from history.

    I remember being played Hitler speeches in school and there was discussion of why he came to power, why initially popular etc. Hearing him speak was a key component to understanding his appeal.
  • StereotomyStereotomy Posts: 4,092
    Right now on their front page, the Guardian has a headline: "Extra glass of wine a day 'will shorten your life by 30 minutes'". I don't think they got that quite right.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,709
    edited April 2018
    Yorkcity said:



    To be fair all governments can always find the money for war.This war we are about to engage in , should have a vote in parliament as it needs to be planned and what we hope to be achieved outlined.We are not under immediate attack , so there should be a vote.

    Except it is not a war, all it is is a few missiles being lobbed at Assad in response to his using chemical weapons to kill civilians which will be over within 24 hours
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 50,762

    Right now on their front page, the Guardian has a headline: "Extra glass of wine a day 'will shorten your life by 30 minutes'". I don't think they got that quite right.

    Deal!
  • Beverley_CBeverley_C Posts: 6,256



    And there's certainly an obvious contrast to be drawn between the government's unwillingness to meet younger people's bus fares and its willingness to spend large sums on dropping ordnance in Syria.

    Dropping bombs on foreigners is always popular with the core vote and the Daily Mail.
  • YorkcityYorkcity Posts: 4,382
    HYUFD said:

    Yorkcity said:



    To be fair all governments can always find the money for war.This war we are about to engage in , should have a vote in parliament as it needs to be planned and what we hope to be achieved outlined.We are not under immediate attack , so there should be a vote.

    Except it is not a war, all it is is a few missiles being lobbed at Assad in response to his using chemical weapons to kill civilians which will be over within 24 hours
    It is war if the Russians as stated attack where the missiles come from Either plane , ship or submarine.Attacking a state , then been attacked , is the definition of war.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 50,762
    Anazina said:

    I remember arguing passionately with iSam that - regardless of racism per se - Powell was simply wrong. The streets had not become rivers of blood.

    But iSam was insistent Powell was right, just premature about when; within fifteen years from now if not from then we would have mass civil disturbance.

    He sounds like a charming character.
    He was actually, and really interesting about a wide range of subjects. Its just when Powell came up, which unfortunately happened far more often than was rational, he would become more than a bit obsessive. It seemed more like hero worship than outright racism to me. An odd choice for a hero.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 76,274
    DavidL said:

    Anazina said:

    I remember arguing passionately with iSam that - regardless of racism per se - Powell was simply wrong. The streets had not become rivers of blood.

    But iSam was insistent Powell was right, just premature about when; within fifteen years from now if not from then we would have mass civil disturbance.

    He sounds like a charming character.
    He was actually, and really interesting about a wide range of subjects. Its just when Powell came up, which unfortunately happened far more often than was rational, he would become more than a bit obsessive. It seemed more like hero worship than outright racism to me. An odd choice for a hero.
    A bit like rod in that he knew his onions when it came to betting, but if the topics verged onto this "specialist" subject it all became rather weird.
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 60,933
    Mr. L, not necessarily. Caesar committed genocide, but has his advocates here ;)
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,709
    edited April 2018
    Yorkcity said:

    HYUFD said:

    Yorkcity said:



    To be fair all governments can always find the money for war.This war we are about to engage in , should have a vote in parliament as it needs to be planned and what we hope to be achieved outlined.We are not under immediate attack , so there should be a vote.

    Except it is not a war, all it is is a few missiles being lobbed at Assad in response to his using chemical weapons to kill civilians which will be over within 24 hours
    It is war if the Russians as stated attack where the missiles come from Either plane , ship or submarine.Attacking a state , then been attacked , is the definition of war.
    The Russians will be informed beforehand where the missiles are going, they will not be targeted at Russians and the Russians have only said they will try and intercept the missiles, not that they are going to attack US aircraft carriers, submarines etc
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 50,762

    DavidL said:

    Anazina said:

    I remember arguing passionately with iSam that - regardless of racism per se - Powell was simply wrong. The streets had not become rivers of blood.

    But iSam was insistent Powell was right, just premature about when; within fifteen years from now if not from then we would have mass civil disturbance.

    He sounds like a charming character.
    He was actually, and really interesting about a wide range of subjects. Its just when Powell came up, which unfortunately happened far more often than was rational, he would become more than a bit obsessive. It seemed more like hero worship than outright racism to me. An odd choice for a hero.
    A bit like rod in that he knew his onions when it came to betting, but if the topics verged onto this "specialist" subject it all became rather weird.
    Yep, very similar. Thank god we are all above all that, eh?
  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,074



    And there's certainly an obvious contrast to be drawn between the government's unwillingness to meet younger people's bus fares and its willingness to spend large sums on dropping ordnance in Syria.

    Dropping bombs on foreigners is always popular with the core vote and the Daily Mail.
    I thought polls were showing that bombing Syria was not popular.
  • Beverley_CBeverley_C Posts: 6,256
    Cyclefree said:



    And there's certainly an obvious contrast to be drawn between the government's unwillingness to meet younger people's bus fares and its willingness to spend large sums on dropping ordnance in Syria.

    Dropping bombs on foreigners is always popular with the core vote and the Daily Mail.
    I thought polls were showing that bombing Syria was not popular.
    Even with the tory core vote? Or party members?

    Having said that, although Corbyn is accusing May of doing Trump's bidding, it does seem to me that Labour seems to be doing Putin's bidding.

  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,709
    edited April 2018

    Right now on their front page, the Guardian has a headline: "Extra glass of wine a day 'will shorten your life by 30 minutes'". I don't think they got that quite right.

    It says drinking twice the recommended limit of 5 glasses of wine or pints of beer a week could shorten your lifespan by 6 months and drinking more than 3 times the limit could shorten your lifespan by 5 years or more

    https://www.theguardian.com/science/2018/apr/12/one-extra-glass-of-wine-will-shorten-your-life-by-30-minutes
  • StereotomyStereotomy Posts: 4,092
    What rubbish. A hopeless party can still split the vote, to the disadvantage of one of the existing parties.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,709
    Cyclefree said:



    And there's certainly an obvious contrast to be drawn between the government's unwillingness to meet younger people's bus fares and its willingness to spend large sums on dropping ordnance in Syria.

    Dropping bombs on foreigners is always popular with the core vote and the Daily Mail.
    I thought polls were showing that bombing Syria was not popular.
    Neck and neck with Sky's poll
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826
    DavidL said:

    Vince finding county bowling rather more to his liking than test match bowling. Currently 62 at a strike rate of 106.

    Well better that than attempting to lead a political party.
  • StereotomyStereotomy Posts: 4,092
    HYUFD said:

    Right now on their front page, the Guardian has a headline: "Extra glass of wine a day 'will shorten your life by 30 minutes'". I don't think they got that quite right.

    It says every drinking twice the recommended limit of 5 glasses of wine or pints of beer a week could shorten your lifespan by 6 months and drinking more than 3 times the limit could shorten your lifespan by 5 years or more

    https://www.theguardian.com/science/2018/apr/12/one-extra-glass-of-wine-will-shorten-your-life-by-30-minutes
    Yeah, the actual article is correct, it's the paraphrased headline on the front page that's badly worded.
  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,074
    HYUFD said:

    Yorkcity said:

    HYUFD said:

    Yorkcity said:



    To be fair all governments can always find the money for war.This war we are about to engage in , should have a vote in parliament as it needs to be planned and what we hope to be achieved outlined.We are not under immediate attack , so there should be a vote.

    Except it is not a war, all it is is a few missiles being lobbed at Assad in response to his using chemical weapons to kill civilians which will be over within 24 hours
    It is war if the Russians as stated attack where the missiles come from Either plane , ship or submarine.Attacking a state , then been attacked , is the definition of war.
    The Russians will be informed beforehand where the missiles are going, they will not be targeted at Russians and the Russians have only said they will try and intercept the missiles, not that they are going to attack US aircraft carriers, submarines etc
    It all sounds a bit like a game and therefore a tad pointless, no? And with all this notice won’t any chemical weapons capability have been moved well out of reach?
  • YorkcityYorkcity Posts: 4,382
    Cyclefree said:



    And there's certainly an obvious contrast to be drawn between the government's unwillingness to meet younger people's bus fares and its willingness to spend large sums on dropping ordnance in Syria.

    Dropping bombs on foreigners is always popular with the core vote and the Daily Mail.
    I thought polls were showing that bombing Syria was not popular.
    Cyclefree said:



    And there's certainly an obvious contrast to be drawn between the government's unwillingness to meet younger people's bus fares and its willingness to spend large sums on dropping ordnance in Syria.

    Dropping bombs on foreigners is always popular with the core vote and the Daily Mail.
    I thought polls were showing that bombing Syria was not popular.
    True but a poll of The core vote , Daily Mail readers could differ.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 58,038

    What rubbish. A hopeless party can still split the vote, to the disadvantage of one of the existing parties.
    Full blown twitter exchange on all this on-going between Collins and Owen Jones.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,709
    edited April 2018
    Cyclefree said:

    HYUFD said:

    Yorkcity said:

    HYUFD said:

    Yorkcity said:



    To be fair all governments can always find the money for war.This war we are about to engage in , should have a vote in parliament as it needs to be planned and what we hope to be achieved outlined.We are not under immediate attack , so there should be a vote.

    Except it is not a war, all it is is a few missiles being lobbed at Assad in response to his using chemical weapons to kill civilians which will be over within 24 hours
    It is war if the Russians as stated attack where the missiles come from Either plane , ship or submarine.Attacking a state , then been attacked , is the definition of war.
    The Russians will be informed beforehand where the missiles are going, they will not be targeted at Russians and the Russians have only said they will try and intercept the missiles, not that they are going to attack US aircraft carriers, submarines etc
    It all sounds a bit like a game and therefore a tad pointless, no? And with all this notice won’t any chemical weapons capability have been moved well out of reach?
    Quite possibly, as I said yesterday it is all largely for the benefit of the media who have made a hooh hah about Assad massacring civilians, Trump certainly has no intention of intervening militarily to remove Assad as his tweet yesterday showed he really wants credit for defeating ISIS in Syria
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 50,762
    edited April 2018

    DavidL said:

    Vince finding county bowling rather more to his liking than test match bowling. Currently 62 at a strike rate of 106.

    Well better that than attempting to lead a political party.
    Is that what Cable is doing? He kept that quiet.

    I note that Nelson struck again. 111-1 became 111-2. But Vince still there.
    Spoke too soon.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 76,274

    What rubbish. A hopeless party can still split the vote, to the disadvantage of one of the existing parties.
    Full blown twitter exchange on all this on-going between Collins and Owen Jones.
    Isn't that what owen Jones does every day?
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 75,841
    edited April 2018



    And there's certainly an obvious contrast to be drawn between the government's unwillingness to meet younger people's bus fares and its willingness to spend large sums on dropping ordnance in Syria.

    Dropping bombs on foreigners is always popular with the core vote and the Daily Mail.
    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-5611215/Syria-gas-attack-2018-LIVE-West-braces-military-intervention.html

    Daily Mail comments highly adverse to military action.
  • TheWhiteRabbitTheWhiteRabbit Posts: 12,387

    I remember arguing passionately with iSam that - regardless of racism per se - Powell was simply wrong. The streets had not become rivers of blood.

    But iSam was insistent Powell was right, just premature about when; within fifteen years from now if not from then we would have mass civil disturbance.

    Found it:
    isam said:

    Grandiose said:

    isam said:

    Grandiose said:

    isam said:


    Sean, read "The Road to National Suicide" by Enoch Powell..

    Here it is.. He made the speech 38 years ago, and it could have been written about this election campaign..



    That's the point, though. Powell thought it was the great an unquenchable issue of his own age, now you're suggesting it's the issue of our own. Few looking back would say that Powell was right: few opponents of immigration point towards the immigration of the 60s or 70s. Yet he was content to paint the picture he did of "the dark motives of those who desire the catastrophic outcome which they foresee" (!)

    I could give many examples of how he was extremely accurate, but its an argument I have had too many times.

    Agree to disagree
    Is there no part of that you're prepared to depart from? Consider rhetorical hyperbole, and concentrate on the grain of truth?

    The Britain of 2014 is patently not a "catastrophic outcome" despite 37 years on "The Road to National Suicide". If Britain is now "unable to escape", I fail to see from what horrifying future is now inevitable.

    Nor do I see the "the New Commonwealth immigrant and immigrant-descended population in our cities unable to live and work in harmony with the rest of the population". UKIP draws more on fears of a more recent wave of immigration - I wonder how many would be prepared to defend Powell's claims.
    As I said, agree to disagree.
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 60,933
    Mr. Pulpstar, comments (and polls of the Twitter variety) can easily be hijacked or unrepresentative. In this instance I imagine the commentary does reflect general views, but we should be wary of taking things like that as either representative or sincere.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 76,274
    edited April 2018
    Floater said:

    twitter.com/usosce/status/984726242669879296?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw&ref_url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.dailymail.co.uk%2Fnews%2Farticle-5611215%2FSyria-gas-attack-2018-LIVE-West-braces-military-intervention.html

    Jezza?

    Somebody did it, I didn't say it was or wasn't the russians, we need to sit down with Putin and talk through and ask him if he did it...
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,709
    Pulpstar said:



    And there's certainly an obvious contrast to be drawn between the government's unwillingness to meet younger people's bus fares and its willingness to spend large sums on dropping ordnance in Syria.

    Dropping bombs on foreigners is always popular with the core vote and the Daily Mail.
    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-5611215/Syria-gas-attack-2018-LIVE-West-braces-military-intervention.html

    Daily Mail comments highly adverse to military action.
    I expect Daily Mail comments would rather bomb Brussels than Damascus
  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,074

    Cyclefree said:



    And there's certainly an obvious contrast to be drawn between the government's unwillingness to meet younger people's bus fares and its willingness to spend large sums on dropping ordnance in Syria.

    Dropping bombs on foreigners is always popular with the core vote and the Daily Mail.
    I thought polls were showing that bombing Syria was not popular.
    Even with the tory core vote? Or party members?

    Having said that, although Corbyn is accusing May of doing Trump's bidding, it does seem to me that Labour seems to be doing Putin's bidding.

    Indeed. And that is not surprising given Corbyn’s own hard left views, which he has held all his life.

    The attached is quite interesting on this point - http://hurryupharry.org/2018/04/13/labours-problem-is-not-antisemitism/#comments#disqus_thread.
  • Ishmael_ZIshmael_Z Posts: 8,981



    And there's certainly an obvious contrast to be drawn between the government's unwillingness to meet younger people's bus fares and its willingness to spend large sums on dropping ordnance in Syria.

    Dropping bombs on foreigners is always popular with the core vote and the Daily Mail.
    I know, let's take the £350m it would cost us to bomb the shit out of Assad and spend it on the NHS bus fares. Always an intelligent line of argument, that, but one of the ground rules is that we abide by the terms of treaties into which we have entered. You may think signing up to the CWC was a mistake, in which case campaign for a Brexit from it, but so long as we belong to it we cannot take advantage of the "we don't have to do anything if it turns out to be onerous, expensive and morally difficult" clause, because there isn't one.

    I am for the Peking Summer Palace solution of giving Assad 24 hours to vacate his favourite palace before we reduce it to a smoking crater.
  • TGOHFTGOHF Posts: 21,633
    DavidL said:

    Vince finding county bowling rather more to his liking than test match bowling. Currently 62 at a strike rate of 106.

    David - you should try http://www.cricket247.org - full of excellent cricket conversation.
  • sarissasarissa Posts: 1,749
    Cyclefree said:



    And there's certainly an obvious contrast to be drawn between the government's unwillingness to meet younger people's bus fares and its willingness to spend large sums on dropping ordnance in Syria.

    Dropping bombs on foreigners is always popular with the core vote and the Daily Mail.
    I thought polls were showing that bombing Syria was not popular.
    60% support a no-fly zone policy.

    As Libya showed, it’s not just enforcing air patrols ensuring that no Syrian (or other) combat aircraft are able to fly.
    it requires the systematic destruction of all the infrastructure that might allow them to do so.
    This means bombing runways, hangars, fuel stores, air traffic control, radar and communication facilities, whether military or civilian, leaving nothing available for the eventual aid relief and re-construction effort, and will require the diversion of scarce state funding and manpower into rebuilding them.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 75,841
    Ishmael_Z said:

    Always an intelligent line of argument, that, but one of the ground rules is that we abide by the terms of treaties into which we have entered. You may think signing up to the CWC was a mistake

    Have only ourselves, the US and France signed up to this ?
    Why do we have to play "global policeman" at every opportunity ?
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 49,614

    Betting Post

    F1: backed Raikkonen to be top 3 in third practice at 11 (12 with boost, fifth the odds top 3 each way):
    http://enormo-haddock.blogspot.co.uk/2018/04/china-pre-qualifying-2018.html

    He's been 2nd in both sessions so far. It looks like Ferrari and Mercedes are very close. Rain 50/50 but expected to be very light so won't alter things substantially. Not guaranteed but his odds should be half (or less) what they are.

    Also, check the blog for a statistically interesting thingummyjig at the start.

    That’s 11 to win P3, backed each way I assume, as opposed to being 11 to finish 3rd or higher?
  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,074
    The article quoted above is relevant to Philip Collins’ point. Owen Jones may not like it but the far left strand of thought which Corbyn represents provides a very fertile ground for anti-semitism to flourish. It is the Jew as blood-sucking capitalist oppressor strand which flourishes and is intimately linked to this far left view.
  • TGOHFTGOHF Posts: 21,633
    https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2018/apr/13/russia-tested-nerve-agent-on-door-handles-before-skripal-attack-uk-dossier-claims

    "The UK released intelligence linking Russia to the attack on the Russian double-agent, including claims that Moscow had tested the use of door handles as a way of delivering nerve agents and that Russian military intelligence had targeted the email accounts of both victims since at least 2013."

  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 60,933
    Miss Sarissa, would that extend to Turkish planes? Russian planes? Israeli planes?

    A no-fly zone would've been difficult to enforce from the start. Now, I suspect it's impossible.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,709
    edited April 2018
    Pulpstar said:

    Ishmael_Z said:

    Always an intelligent line of argument, that, but one of the ground rules is that we abide by the terms of treaties into which we have entered. You may think signing up to the CWC was a mistake

    Have only ourselves, the US and France signed up to this ?
    Why do we have to play "global policeman" at every opportunity ?
    As ourselves, the US and France are the permanent Western representatives on the UN Security Council
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 58,038
    Cyclefree said:

    The article quoted above is relevant to Philip Collins’ point. Owen Jones may not like it but the far left strand of thought which Corbyn represents provides a very fertile ground for anti-semitism to flourish. It is the Jew as blood-sucking capitalist oppressor strand which flourishes and is intimately linked to this far left view.
    I do wonder whether voters will really understand what they are voting for when the time comes and their pencils hover over the Labour box.
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 60,933
    Mr. Sandpit, you're correct. 12 to be in the top 3 of third practice would be fantastic odds (I still think the odds are good, mind).
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 49,614
    Just watched Question Time, which unusually was a good debate. Two points of particular note, one was Jonathan Freedland’s very articulate description of antisemitism and why it is especially as issue for those of certain left-wing beliefs; the other being the only boos of the night from the audience when the same contributor suggested we have a second referendum on EU membership.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 49,614

    Mr. Sandpit, you're correct. 12 to be in the top 3 of third practice would be fantastic odds (I still think the odds are good, mind).

    I thought as much, but it was maybe a little ambiguous as it was written. I’m following you in on that, but sadly only in the virtual world as I still haven’t got a working Laddies account.
  • FloaterFloater Posts: 14,195
    That Russian ambassador... jeez

    Apparently we are pursuing a policy of destroying all the evidence............

    Riiiight


    Still, good little obedient puppy Corbyn will lap it up no doubt
  • AnazinaAnazina Posts: 3,487
    Cyclefree said:

    HYUFD said:

    Yorkcity said:

    HYUFD said:

    Yorkcity said:



    To be fair all governments can always find the money for war.This war we are about to engage in , should have a vote in parliament as it needs to be planned and what we hope to be achieved outlined.We are not under immediate attack , so there should be a vote.

    Except it is not a war, all it is is a few missiles being lobbed at Assad in response to his using chemical weapons to kill civilians which will be over within 24 hours
    It is war if the Russians as stated attack where the missiles come from Either plane , ship or submarine.Attacking a state , then been attacked , is the definition of war.
    The Russians will be informed beforehand where the missiles are going, they will not be targeted at Russians and the Russians have only said they will try and intercept the missiles, not that they are going to attack US aircraft carriers, submarines etc
    It all sounds a bit like a game and therefore a tad pointless, no? And with all this notice won’t any chemical weapons capability have been moved well out of reach?
    Indeed. Boys with toys playing soldiers. Utterly risible and futile.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 75,841
    HYUFD said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Ishmael_Z said:

    Always an intelligent line of argument, that, but one of the ground rules is that we abide by the terms of treaties into which we have entered. You may think signing up to the CWC was a mistake

    Have only ourselves, the US and France signed up to this ?
    Why do we have to play "global policeman" at every opportunity ?
    As ourselves, the US and France are the permanent Western representatives on the UN Security Council
    Ah Good, can you pass me to the passed security council vote/resolution on the matter ?
  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,074
    edited April 2018
    In response to @rottenborough

    They will be voting for a party which is led by the Far Left, which is anti-West and anti-capitalist. To sell their votes for a free bus ride, well, words fail me.

    I understand Corbyn’s attraction to the young but it is they more than anyone who will suffer in a country run by the Far Left.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 50,762
    Interesting. From a legal news service I receive:

    "The UK government is to launch a legal challenge against Scotland’s Brexit legislation next week at the Supreme Court.

    The Attorney General, Jeremy Wright QC MP and the Advocate General for Scotland, Lord Keen of Elie QC are expected to lodge a formal application contesting the legality of the Continuity Bill at the court.

    The legislation is intended to ensure repatriated powers vest in Holyrood and not Westminster upon Brexit.

    It was passed by MSPs last month as negotiations between the governments reached an impasse.

    Contrary to the advice of Presiding Officer Ken Macintosh, who thought the bill was ultra vires, ministers pushed ahead with the legislation, with the Lord Advocate, James Wolffe QC, making an unprecedented defence of it in the Parliament.

    Scottish Secretary David Mundell said it was “almost inevitable” the legality of the bill would require to be tested by the Supreme Court.

    He said: “When you have that degree of uncertainty, then you know inevitably it needs to be clarified. I don’t regard it as a big deal as such. That’s where the process takes you.”

    A Scottish government spokesman said: “The Continuity Bill was passed overwhelmingly by the Scottish Parliament. Scottish ministers are satisfied the bill is within legislative competence.”

    Interesting that they have found a way to go directly to the Supreme Court rather than trudging through the Court of Session.
  • FloaterFloater Posts: 14,195
    The muppet also claims there was no chemical attack - but if there was it was staged.......

  • FloaterFloater Posts: 14,195
    Cyclefree said:

    In response to @rottenborough

    They will be voting for a party which is led by the Far Left, which is anti-West and anti-capitalist. To sell their votes for a free bus ride, well, words fail me.

    I understand Corbyn’s attraction to the young but it is they more than anyone who will suffer in a country run by the Far Left.

    We will all suffer - and god help those who disagree with them
  • david_herdsondavid_herdson Posts: 17,401
    Pulpstar said:

    Ishmael_Z said:

    Always an intelligent line of argument, that, but one of the ground rules is that we abide by the terms of treaties into which we have entered. You may think signing up to the CWC was a mistake

    Have only ourselves, the US and France signed up to this ?
    Why do we have to play "global policeman" at every opportunity ?
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Four_Policemen

    It's effectively one of the duties of a UNSCPM. (Of course, Russia would say that that's what it's doing too. The weakness of the scheme is that it doesn't work well when the permanent members' interests clash - which given the nature of the countries involved, is almost inevitable much of the time).
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,709
    Pulpstar said:

    HYUFD said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Ishmael_Z said:

    Always an intelligent line of argument, that, but one of the ground rules is that we abide by the terms of treaties into which we have entered. You may think signing up to the CWC was a mistake

    Have only ourselves, the US and France signed up to this ?
    Why do we have to play "global policeman" at every opportunity ?
    As ourselves, the US and France are the permanent Western representatives on the UN Security Council
    Ah Good, can you pass me to the passed security council vote/resolution on the matter ?
    Well as Russia will obviously veto it there won't be one.

    That does not change the fact the US, France and Iraq are the 3 largest western military powers and the 3 western powers with nuclear weapons and thus will lead any western military action in most cases
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 39,748
    edited April 2018

    Miss Sarissa, would that extend to Turkish planes? Russian planes? Israeli planes?

    A no-fly zone would've been difficult to enforce from the start. Now, I suspect it's impossible.

    There weren't any Russian, Turkish or Israeli planes there (officially) at the start, but yes, almost impossible to enforce now. I can't remember it being realistically proposed at the beginning of the war, but with hindsight it seems practicable. It would have stopped barrel bombing and some/most of the chemical attacks if nothing else.

    Of course that might have meant we'd now be facing a victorious Salafist campaign rooting out the last Baathist enclaves..
  • david_herdsondavid_herdson Posts: 17,401
    Cyclefree said:

    The article quoted above is relevant to Philip Collins’ point. Owen Jones may not like it but the far left strand of thought which Corbyn represents provides a very fertile ground for anti-semitism to flourish. It is the Jew as blood-sucking capitalist oppressor strand which flourishes and is intimately linked to this far left view.
    It's a measure of Labour's problem with antisemitism and knee-jerk anti-UK/US attitudes that when Dianne Abbott gives WW2 as an example of a conflict where it was legitimate to use force, people feel able to joke "on which side?".
  • DavidL said:

    Interesting. From a legal news service I receive:

    "The UK government is to launch a legal challenge against Scotland’s Brexit legislation next week at the Supreme Court.

    The Attorney General, Jeremy Wright QC MP and the Advocate General for Scotland, Lord Keen of Elie QC are expected to lodge a formal application contesting the legality of the Continuity Bill at the court.

    The legislation is intended to ensure repatriated powers vest in Holyrood and not Westminster upon Brexit.

    It was passed by MSPs last month as negotiations between the governments reached an impasse.

    Contrary to the advice of Presiding Officer Ken Macintosh, who thought the bill was ultra vires, ministers pushed ahead with the legislation, with the Lord Advocate, James Wolffe QC, making an unprecedented defence of it in the Parliament.

    Scottish Secretary David Mundell said it was “almost inevitable” the legality of the bill would require to be tested by the Supreme Court.

    He said: “When you have that degree of uncertainty, then you know inevitably it needs to be clarified. I don’t regard it as a big deal as such. That’s where the process takes you.”

    A Scottish government spokesman said: “The Continuity Bill was passed overwhelmingly by the Scottish Parliament. Scottish ministers are satisfied the bill is within legislative competence.”

    Interesting that they have found a way to go directly to the Supreme Court rather than trudging through the Court of Session.

    Do you think this might be a test case for if the Scottish Government try and pass legislation for another Indyref without a Section 30 order?
  • AnazinaAnazina Posts: 3,487
    edited April 2018
    HYUFD said:

    Pulpstar said:

    HYUFD said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Ishmael_Z said:

    Always an intelligent line of argument, that, but one of the ground rules is that we abide by the terms of treaties into which we have entered. You may think signing up to the CWC was a mistake

    Have only ourselves, the US and France signed up to this ?
    Why do we have to play "global policeman" at every opportunity ?
    As ourselves, the US and France are the permanent Western representatives on the UN Security Council
    Ah Good, can you pass me to the passed security council vote/resolution on the matter ?
    Well as Russia will obviously veto it there won't be one.

    That does not change the fact the US, France and Iraq are the 3 largest western military powers and the 3 western powers with nuclear weapons and thus will lead any western military action in most cases
    Iraq? The fake news from you gets ever more audacious.
  • MarkHopkinsMarkHopkins Posts: 5,584

    Miss Sarissa, would that extend to Turkish planes? Russian planes? Israeli planes?

    A no-fly zone would've been difficult to enforce from the start. Now, I suspect it's impossible.


    A no-fly zone feels like a 'safe' option. Hey let's do something that isn't too nasty.

  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,709
    edited April 2018
    Anazina said:

    HYUFD said:

    Pulpstar said:

    HYUFD said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Ishmael_Z said:

    Always an intelligent line of argument, that, but one of the ground rules is that we abide by the terms of treaties into which we have entered. You may think signing up to the CWC was a mistake

    Have only ourselves, the US and France signed up to this ?
    Why do we have to play "global policeman" at every opportunity ?
    As ourselves, the US and France are the permanent Western representatives on the UN Security Council
    Ah Good, can you pass me to the passed security council vote/resolution on the matter ?
    Well as Russia will obviously veto it there won't be one.

    That does not change the fact the US, France and Iraq are the 3 largest western military powers and the 3 western powers with nuclear weapons and thus will lead any western military action in most cases
    Iraq? The fake news from you gets ever more audacious.
    I said most of the time.

    Apart from Iraq 2003, the US, UK and France were all involved in the Gulf War, the Afghanistan War, air strikes in Kosovo, air strikes on Libya and air strikes on ISIS as well as strikes on Assad to come
  • AndrewAndrew Posts: 2,900
    Pulpstar said:


    Daily Mail comments highly adverse to military action.

    Daily Mail comments are like twitter, easily gamed by bot-farms. You'll find the top voted comments pretty much follow whatever the Russian talking points of the day are.
  • Beverley_CBeverley_C Posts: 6,256
    HYUFD said:

    Pulpstar said:



    And there's certainly an obvious contrast to be drawn between the government's unwillingness to meet younger people's bus fares and its willingness to spend large sums on dropping ordnance in Syria.

    Dropping bombs on foreigners is always popular with the core vote and the Daily Mail.
    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-5611215/Syria-gas-attack-2018-LIVE-West-braces-military-intervention.html

    Daily Mail comments highly adverse to military action.
    I expect Daily Mail comments would rather bomb Brussels than Damascus
    Probably true ...
  • RoyalBlueRoyalBlue Posts: 3,223
    DavidL said:

    Interesting. From a legal news service I receive:

    "The UK government is to launch a legal challenge against Scotland’s Brexit legislation next week at the Supreme Court.

    The Attorney General, Jeremy Wright QC MP and the Advocate General for Scotland, Lord Keen of Elie QC are expected to lodge a formal application contesting the legality of the Continuity Bill at the court.

    The legislation is intended to ensure repatriated powers vest in Holyrood and not Westminster upon Brexit.

    It was passed by MSPs last month as negotiations between the governments reached an impasse.

    Contrary to the advice of Presiding Officer Ken Macintosh, who thought the bill was ultra vires, ministers pushed ahead with the legislation, with the Lord Advocate, James Wolffe QC, making an unprecedented defence of it in the Parliament.

    Scottish Secretary David Mundell said it was “almost inevitable” the legality of the bill would require to be tested by the Supreme Court.

    He said: “When you have that degree of uncertainty, then you know inevitably it needs to be clarified. I don’t regard it as a big deal as such. That’s where the process takes you.”

    A Scottish government spokesman said: “The Continuity Bill was passed overwhelmingly by the Scottish Parliament. Scottish ministers are satisfied the bill is within legislative competence.”

    Interesting that they have found a way to go directly to the Supreme Court rather than trudging through the Court of Session.

    Thank goodness. The government should be much more assertive in countermanding the extraconstitutional actions of the SNP.

    Let’s hope the Supreme Court finds for the Government quickly and unanimously.
  • RecidivistRecidivist Posts: 4,679

    Cyclefree said:

    The article quoted above is relevant to Philip Collins’ point. Owen Jones may not like it but the far left strand of thought which Corbyn represents provides a very fertile ground for anti-semitism to flourish. It is the Jew as blood-sucking capitalist oppressor strand which flourishes and is intimately linked to this far left view.
    I do wonder whether voters will really understand what they are voting for when the time comes and their pencils hover over the Labour box.
    I do wonder whether voters will really understand what they are voting for when the time comes and their pencils hover over the Conservative box.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 47,080

    Cyclefree said:

    The article quoted above is relevant to Philip Collins’ point. Owen Jones may not like it but the far left strand of thought which Corbyn represents provides a very fertile ground for anti-semitism to flourish. It is the Jew as blood-sucking capitalist oppressor strand which flourishes and is intimately linked to this far left view.
    I do wonder whether voters will really understand what they are voting for when the time comes and their pencils hover over the Labour box.
    I do wonder whether voters will really understand what they are voting for when the time comes and their pencils hover over the Conservative box.
    LibDem surge nailed on? ;)
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 49,614
    Nor the Russian trolls who are straight into the comments section saying MI5 did it, Porton Down did it and why should we trust anything the British government say after Bliar and the dodgy dossier.

    For the rest of us, and everyone except Russia, it’s clear proof of what happened. There’s a lot of things that have been declassified by Britain to write that letter, a decision that won’t have been taken lightly.
  • AnazinaAnazina Posts: 3,487
    HYUFD said:

    Anazina said:

    HYUFD said:

    Pulpstar said:

    HYUFD said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Ishmael_Z said:

    Always an intelligent line of argument, that, but one of the ground rules is that we abide by the terms of treaties into which we have entered. You may think signing up to the CWC was a mistake

    Have only ourselves, the US and France signed up to this ?
    Why do we have to play "global policeman" at every opportunity ?
    As ourselves, the US and France are the permanent Western representatives on the UN Security Council
    Ah Good, can you pass me to the passed security council vote/resolution on the matter ?
    Well as Russia will obviously veto it there won't be one.

    That does not change the fact the US, France and Iraq are the 3 largest western military powers and the 3 western powers with nuclear weapons and thus will lead any western military action in most cases
    Iraq? The fake news from you gets ever more audacious.
    I said most of the time.

    Apart from Iraq 2003, the US, UK and France were all involved in the Gulf War, the Afghanistan War, air strikes in Kosovo, air strikes on Libya and air strikes on ISIS as well as strikes on Assad to come
    "That does not change the fact the US, France and Iraq are the 3 largest western military powers"

    Iraq?
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 76,274
    Sandpit said:

    Nor the Russian trolls who are straight into the comments section saying MI5 did it, Porton Down did it and why should we trust anything the British government say after Bliar and the dodgy dossier.

    For the rest of us, and everyone except Russia, it’s clear proof of what happened. There’s a lot of things that have been declassified by Britain to write that letter, a decision that won’t have been taken lightly.
    When boris stated unequivocally that Putin did it and there was no "clarification" from the PMs office, it was crystal clear they had a whole load of evidence (I would guess even more concrete stuff than has released with this letter).
  • FloaterFloater Posts: 14,195

    Sandpit said:

    Nor the Russian trolls who are straight into the comments section saying MI5 did it, Porton Down did it and why should we trust anything the British government say after Bliar and the dodgy dossier.

    For the rest of us, and everyone except Russia, it’s clear proof of what happened. There’s a lot of things that have been declassified by Britain to write that letter, a decision that won’t have been taken lightly.
    When boris stated unequivocally that Putin did it and there was no "clarification" from the PMs office, it was crystal clear they had a whole load of evidence (I would guess even more concrete stuff than has released with this letter).
    Still Jezza and his useful idiots on here will continue to parrot the Moscow line.
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 60,933
    Mr. Divvie, I recall it being proposed at the time. It was deemed unlike Libya because Syria actually has/had reasonable air defences so it was not the almost risk-free (for the pilots) option that it was in Libya.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 76,274

    Cyclefree said:

    The article quoted above is relevant to Philip Collins’ point. Owen Jones may not like it but the far left strand of thought which Corbyn represents provides a very fertile ground for anti-semitism to flourish. It is the Jew as blood-sucking capitalist oppressor strand which flourishes and is intimately linked to this far left view.
    I do wonder whether voters will really understand what they are voting for when the time comes and their pencils hover over the Labour box.
    I do wonder whether voters will really understand what they are voting for when the time comes and their pencils hover over the Conservative box.
    Well given we have had governments since 1979 that believe in the pro-west, pro-business, pro-capitalism, liberal democracy system I would say so. What jezza is offering hasn't been seen since early 70s.
This discussion has been closed.