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politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » The betting edges a notch away from Trump completing his first

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    FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 76,285

    Elliot said:

    Some of us have been highlighting Corbyn's danger for a long time. It's amazing how long it takes for people to wake up to this. And then they forget about it when the crisis passes. In reality, democrats of left, right and centre need to stop this man ever getting in power. Western democracy is too important.
    There's 4 years to get this message across.
    I don't think enough people don't care / want to listen. Bit like Brexit, they want to turn over the apple cart and don't really care about the consequences.
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    Chris Leslie just stabbed Corbyn in the back

    In the front, surely?
    Back and front
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    FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 76,285
    edited April 2018
    Elliot said:

    Elliot said:

    Some of us have been highlighting Corbyn's danger for a long time. It's amazing how long it takes for people to wake up to this. And then they forget about it when the crisis passes. In reality, democrats of left, right and centre need to stop this man ever getting in power. Western democracy is too important.
    There's 4 years to get this message across.
    Part of the problem is many people under 30 get their news from social media and don't watch TV news or read the papers. Social media is utterly dominated by Corbyn supporters. On platforms like reddit they can actually bury the negative stories like this. Though I do wonder how many of those Corbyn supporters are actually Russian accounts.
    Not only bury the news, just spread fake news. Sites like Sqwawkbox have been pushing all the Russian conspiracy stuff, even claiming Jo Johnson was being fed secret info on QT (when it was Siri that went off) and then followed it up with well it must have been because he was in the cabinet meeting discussing the military action (which he wasn't).

    Infowars and Maomentum outrider sites are different cheeks of the same arse.
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    ElliotElliot Posts: 1,516
    murali_s said:

    murali_s said:

    Vote Labour, vote for gas attacks.

    Ridiculous statement. Legality of military action and the role of Parliament are very valid questions.
    Corbyn would hand our security over to a Russian veto.

    This will become the theme and it will result in him never becoming PM
    Maybe but remember that cuts both ways (viz. Israel and the US)).
    He is asking for this restraint to apply to the UK. Russia won't give a damn about ignoring the UNSC.
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    ElliotElliot Posts: 1,516

    Elliot said:

    Elliot said:

    Some of us have been highlighting Corbyn's danger for a long time. It's amazing how long it takes for people to wake up to this. And then they forget about it when the crisis passes. In reality, democrats of left, right and centre need to stop this man ever getting in power. Western democracy is too important.
    There's 4 years to get this message across.
    Part of the problem is many people under 30 get their news from social media and don't watch TV news or read the papers. Social media is utterly dominated by Corbyn supporters. On platforms like reddit they can actually bury the negative stories like this. Though I do wonder how many of those Corbyn supporters are actually Russian accounts.
    Not only bury the news, just spread fake news. Sites like Sqwawkbox have been pushing all the Russian conspiracy stuff, even claiming Jo Johnson was being fed secret info on QT (when it was Siri that went off) and then followed it up with well it must have been because he was in the cabinet meeting discussing the military action (which he wasn't).

    Infowars and Maomentum outrider sites are different cheeks of the same arse.
    Our democracies are under serious attack from these misinformation campaogns, which have a power like never before. We desperately need a government response to stop it, because Trump's US is not going to do anything.
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    FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 76,285
    Wowzers,

    Vauxhall is terminating the contracts of all its 326 dealerships in Britain as the company battles to deal with plunging UK sales.

    The marque is understood to be invoking a special clause in franchisees’ agreements that can only be used if the entire network is reorganised.

    Dealers will be given two years’ notice from April 30 that the Vauxhall is ending its re

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2018/04/16/vauxhall-terminate-entire-dealership-network-sales-plunge/
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    hunchmanhunchman Posts: 2,591
    Loving the bust up between Caroline nokes and amber rudd today! It really couldn't happen to two nicer people.
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    Barry Sherman humilates Corbyn big time.

    Labour cannot go on like this
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    FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 76,285

    Barry Sherman humilates Corbyn big time.

    Labour cannot go on like this

    I am afraid they can and they will.
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    Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 60,983
    Mr. Urquhart, nefarious states also benefit from the UK have free and open media, and from just spraying out endless conspiracy theories, to cater to every taste. It's harder to stick honestly to the truth because genuine mistakes and uncertainty are involved.

    Not to mention the nefarious states have a useful idiot in Corbyn.
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    rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 58,208
    Sherman knocks it out of the park.
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    oxfordsimonoxfordsimon Posts: 5,831
    Barry Sheerman spoke with passion - but he will now be the subject of attack from his own party
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    Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 60,287
    edited April 2018
    hunchman said:

    Loving the bust up between Caroline nokes and amber rudd today! It really couldn't happen to two nicer people.

    Nothing like the bust up of labour and Corbyn
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    rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 58,208

    Barry Sheerman spoke with passion - but he will now be the subject of attack from his own party

    I think he knew that. He's a tough character I suspect.
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    hunchmanhunchman Posts: 2,591

    hunchman said:

    Loving the bust up between Caroline nokes and amber rudd today! It really couldn't happen to two nicer people.

    Nothing like the bust up of labour and Corbyn
    I've repeatedly warned ms nokes as a constituent what amber is like!
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    If this goes to a vote Theresa will walk it
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    Now Mike Gapes does one on Corbyn
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    FregglesFreggles Posts: 3,486
    Make Gapes rages
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    PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 75,926

    Wowzers,

    Vauxhall is terminating the contracts of all its 326 dealerships in Britain as the company battles to deal with plunging UK sales.

    The marque is understood to be invoking a special clause in franchisees’ agreements that can only be used if the entire network is reorganised.

    Dealers will be given two years’ notice from April 30 that the Vauxhall is ending its re

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2018/04/16/vauxhall-terminate-entire-dealership-network-sales-plunge/

    Who on earth is going to buy a new car TODAY ?

    Diesels are killing everyone (And due implied big tax hikes down the line), and the electric infrastructure/offerings are't so mature as to attract anyone but the pioneers !
    Which leaves petrol, but that's apparently killing the planet too.
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    rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 58,208
    Freggles said:

    Make Gapes rages

    The deselection list is becoming very clear today. Perhaps they should resign the Labour whip now and form an independent labour grouping?
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    Has the MP for Barrow & Furness been called as yet?
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    Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 60,983
    Mr. Borough, if they had the courage, they have the numbers to become the outright Opposition overnight.
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    rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 58,208

    Has the MP for Barrow & Furness been called as yet?

    No. I think we can guess what his view will be...
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    PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 75,926
    edited April 2018

    If this goes to a vote Theresa will walk it

    I said this morning Labour (PLP) would be far more divided on the issue.

    The Labour membership will be massively against the air strikes though, as is the country at large. The Tory membership will be in favour - and probably the only group as a whole in favour.

    This event cements BOTH May and Corbyn.
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    Pulpstar said:

    If this goes to a vote Theresa will walk it

    I said this morning Labour (PLP) would be far more divided on the issue.

    The Labour membership will be massively against the air strikes though, as is the country at large. The Tory membership will be in favour - and probably the only group as a whole in favour.

    This event cements BOTH May and Corbyn.
    Country is now 49% in favour according to Skys data poll today
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    oxfordsimonoxfordsimon Posts: 5,831
    Pidcock is just so rude
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    RobDRobD Posts: 58,962

    Pidcock is just so rude

    A general statement, or has she just said something? :p
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    Pidcock is just so rude

    Corbyn diehards are being marginalised
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    steve_garnersteve_garner Posts: 1,019
    Heaven help us if Pidcock ever becomes Labour leader.
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    rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 58,208

    Heaven help us if Pidcock ever becomes Labour leader.

    We've got enough problems with the current one, thank you very much.
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    MikeSmithsonMikeSmithson Posts: 7,382
    Pulpstar said:

    Wowzers,

    Vauxhall is terminating the contracts of all its 326 dealerships in Britain as the company battles to deal with plunging UK sales.

    The marque is understood to be invoking a special clause in franchisees’ agreements that can only be used if the entire network is reorganised.

    Dealers will be given two years’ notice from April 30 that the Vauxhall is ending its re

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2018/04/16/vauxhall-terminate-entire-dealership-network-sales-plunge/

    Who on earth is going to buy a new car TODAY ?

    Diesels are killing everyone (And due implied big tax hikes down the line), and the electric infrastructure/offerings are't so mature as to attract anyone but the pioneers !
    Which leaves petrol, but that's apparently killing the planet too.
    Last month I upgraded my Toyota Hybrid admittedly getting one that was 12 months old
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    kle4kle4 Posts: 91,725

    Pulpstar said:

    If this goes to a vote Theresa will walk it

    I said this morning Labour (PLP) would be far more divided on the issue.

    The Labour membership will be massively against the air strikes though, as is the country at large. The Tory membership will be in favour - and probably the only group as a whole in favour.

    This event cements BOTH May and Corbyn.
    Country is now 49% in favour according to Skys data poll today
    I am very surprised. I'd have figured 40% at most.

    But the outcome of a vote is a waste of time, anyway - I've been out, but any interesting comments about the principle of parliamentary consent for action from anyone but the usual suspects?
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    PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 75,926

    Pulpstar said:

    If this goes to a vote Theresa will walk it

    I said this morning Labour (PLP) would be far more divided on the issue.

    The Labour membership will be massively against the air strikes though, as is the country at large. The Tory membership will be in favour - and probably the only group as a whole in favour.

    This event cements BOTH May and Corbyn.
    Country is now 49% in favour according to Skys data poll today
    Interesting, if that is indeed the case then May has basically swung the undecideds behind her.
    I still believe Labour voters will generally be against the move, the membership definitely will (Not just the diehard Corbynites), and with the structure of Labour's constitution that is what counts for Corbyn.
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    AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 30,340

    Freggles said:

    Make Gapes rages

    The deselection list is becoming very clear today. Perhaps they should resign the Labour whip now and form an independent labour grouping?
    Threats of deselection gave the founding of the SDP huge momentum. Quite a few Labour MPs felt they had nothing to lose and so jumped ship. If the Labour hierarchy have any sense they will be damping down talk of deselections (except for perhaps one or two bellwethers).
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    PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 75,926

    Freggles said:

    Make Gapes rages

    The deselection list is becoming very clear today. Perhaps they should resign the Labour whip now and form an independent labour grouping?
    Threats of deselection gave the founding of the SDP huge momentum. Quite a few Labour MPs felt they had nothing to lose and so jumped ship. If the Labour hierarchy have any sense they will be damping down talk of deselections (except for perhaps one or two bellwethers).
    The Labour brand is remarkably strong and resilient though. I can't see Gapes being deselected myself, and when push comes to shove he'll support a Queen's speech for Corbyn if Corbyn has the essential 'left block' numbers.
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    Has the MP for Barrow & Furness been called as yet?

    No. I think we can guess what his view will be...
    I have spotted him as the chambers thins out ... can't be too long until he's up. Mike Gapes has been the most impressive so far on his side.
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    kle4kle4 Posts: 91,725

    Freggles said:

    Make Gapes rages

    The deselection list is becoming very clear today. Perhaps they should resign the Labour whip now and form an independent labour grouping?
    If they are smart the leadership will rein in their supporters - it is very clear that unless they are pushed, the MPs won't go anywhere, so potential deselection forces their hands.
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    Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 60,287
    edited April 2018
    kle4 said:

    Pulpstar said:

    If this goes to a vote Theresa will walk it

    I said this morning Labour (PLP) would be far more divided on the issue.

    The Labour membership will be massively against the air strikes though, as is the country at large. The Tory membership will be in favour - and probably the only group as a whole in favour.

    This event cements BOTH May and Corbyn.
    Country is now 49% in favour according to Skys data poll today
    I am very surprised. I'd have figured 40% at most.

    But the outcome of a vote is a waste of time, anyway - I've been out, but any interesting comments about the principle of parliamentary consent for action from anyone but the usual suspects?
    There are a number of expressions for parliamentary consent but TM presentation today seems to have won the day with Corbyn utterly humilated
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    rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 58,208
    So far we have barely had a single Labour MP backing Jezza's position.
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    kle4kle4 Posts: 91,725

    kle4 said:

    Pulpstar said:

    If this goes to a vote Theresa will walk it

    I said this morning Labour (PLP) would be far more divided on the issue.

    The Labour membership will be massively against the air strikes though, as is the country at large. The Tory membership will be in favour - and probably the only group as a whole in favour.

    This event cements BOTH May and Corbyn.
    Country is now 49% in favour according to Skys data poll today
    I am very surprised. I'd have figured 40% at most.

    But the outcome of a vote is a waste of time, anyway - I've been out, but any interesting comments about the principle of parliamentary consent for action from anyone but the usual suspects?
    There is a number of expressions for parliamentary consent but TM presentation today seems to bave won the day with Corbyn utterly humilated
    He has been before, supposedly, on the issue, so I imagine he'll be fine, but interesting to know.
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    oxfordsimonoxfordsimon Posts: 5,831
    edited April 2018
    If we are to put economic sanctions in place against supporters of the Russian and Syrian regimes, how will Jezza cope when we freeze all his assets?!
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    MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 37,607
    In the real world and outside of the Westminster bubble, no one is watching this debate and no one cares what Corbyn says about it.

    Like it or not, his drubbing changes nothing.
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    FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 76,285
    Scott_P said:

    twitter.com/DPJHodges/status/985906490803449856

    Taking his lead from InfoWars or the Morning Star's coverage of these events...hard to tell them apart these days.
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    kle4kle4 Posts: 91,725
    MaxPB said:

    In the real world and outside of the Westminster bubble, no one is watching this debate and no one cares what Corbyn says about it.

    Like it or not, his drubbing changes nothing.

    If anything, the 'bubble' talking about him having bad days just makes his base more defensive. And in fairness his position, merited or not, will be more popular outside it than within.
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    he could tell the Wing-nut in chief he's going to the wrong place.

    https://twitter.com/DPJHodges/status/985925261815439362
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    Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 60,983
    Mr. Max, it may alter the views of some Labour MPs, though. *This* is the creature that leads them, and for whom a Labour victory means becoming Prime Minister.

    Anyway, I must be off. Play nicely, children.
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    rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 58,208
    MaxPB said:

    In the real world and outside of the Westminster bubble, no one is watching this debate and no one cares what Corbyn says about it.

    Like it or not, his drubbing changes nothing.

    We'll see what the sound bites on tonight's TV news show.
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    kle4kle4 Posts: 91,725

    Barry Sherman humilates Corbyn big time.

    Labour cannot go on like this

    Is that 2016 I hear? :)

    They absolutely can.
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    FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 76,285
    MaxPB said:

    In the real world and outside of the Westminster bubble, no one is watching this debate and no one cares what Corbyn says about it.

    Like it or not, his drubbing changes nothing.

    One can only hope that the left leaning media who initially piled in on him when he was elected leader, and have more recently been giving him the benefit of the doubt, will have come to their senses that he is a dangerous individual with dangerous ideas and is happy to push the likes of Putin's propaganda.
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    RobDRobD Posts: 58,962
    Scott_P said:
    He did indeed say that footage showed people near the rubble without protective gear.
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    jonny83jonny83 Posts: 1,261
    It won't do any damage to Corbyn, nothing ever does.
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    FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 76,285
    RobD said:

    Scott_P said:
    He did indeed say that footage showed people near the rubble without protective gear.
    That will be another sqwawkbox "talking point".
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    JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 38,990

    God knows I've taken the piss out of Lammy plenty of times on here, but he was excellent asking about Windrush: https://order-order.com/2018/04/16/rudd-attacks-home-office/

    I'm very conflicted about Lammy. He can speak very eloquently and intelligently about certain topics, and obviously cares deeply about others. And then he says stuff that makes me thing "whaaaaat the f****k?"
    Here's another point in favour of Lammy.

    Lammy went to the trouble of finding out about the huge Oxbridge bias against, amongst other things, Welsh students.

    In 2016, Cambridge accepted just 57 Welsh students. There are schools in London that -- alone -- sent more to Oxbridge than this.

    The only reason data like this -- the overwhelming Oxbridge bias to London, the South and the East -- is more widely known is because of David Lammy.

    Labour have tonnes of vacuous, space-wasting Welsh MPs.

    None of them have ever managed to raise this issue, which has persisted for decades. It was left to David Lammy to make the running.

    I've got a lot of time for David Lammy.
    Thanks for that info - I hadn't heard of it.
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    JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 38,990
    Nigelb said:

    God knows I've taken the piss out of Lammy plenty of times on here, but he was excellent asking about Windrush: https://order-order.com/2018/04/16/rudd-attacks-home-office/

    I'm very conflicted about Lammy. He can speak very eloquently and intelligently about certain topics, and obviously cares deeply about others. And then he says stuff that makes me thing "whaaaaat the f****k?"
    Well that goes for many of us on here, too...
    Yep.
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    TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 41,296
    MaxPB said:

    In the real world and outside of the Westminster bubble, no one is watching this debate and no one cares what Corbyn says about it.

    Like it or not, his drubbing changes nothing.

    I think committing the country's armed forces to action is perhaps one of the few things that people in general are actually interested in.
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    TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 41,296
    jonny83 said:

    It won't do any damage to Corbyn, nothing ever does.

    That is also true.
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    oxfordsimonoxfordsimon Posts: 5,831
    TOPPING said:

    jonny83 said:

    It won't do any damage to Corbyn, nothing ever does.

    That is also true.
    Something will do eventually - every political career ends in failure.
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    kle4kle4 Posts: 91,725

    TOPPING said:

    jonny83 said:

    It won't do any damage to Corbyn, nothing ever does.

    That is also true.
    Something will do eventually - every political career ends in failure.
    Sure - the realities of government will dent his popularity.
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    MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 37,607
    TOPPING said:

    MaxPB said:

    In the real world and outside of the Westminster bubble, no one is watching this debate and no one cares what Corbyn says about it.

    Like it or not, his drubbing changes nothing.

    I think committing the country's armed forces to action is perhaps one of the few things that people in general are actually interested in.
    I have much less faith than you. Especially considering I the limited nature of the strikes and the fact that it isn't an ongoing engagement.
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    steve_garnersteve_garner Posts: 1,019
    Judging by the tone of the debate the PM would comfortably win a retrospective vote on the military action with consequent political advantage. Is it the case that she genuinely thinks that would be the wrong thing to do?
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    rural_voterrural_voter Posts: 2,038

    God knows I've taken the piss out of Lammy plenty of times on here, but he was excellent asking about Windrush: https://order-order.com/2018/04/16/rudd-attacks-home-office/

    I'm very conflicted about Lammy. He can speak very eloquently and intelligently about certain topics, and obviously cares deeply about others. And then he says stuff that makes me thing "whaaaaat the f****k?"
    Here's another point in favour of Lammy.

    Lammy went to the trouble of finding out about the huge Oxbridge bias against, amongst other things, Welsh students.

    In 2016, Cambridge accepted just 57 Welsh students. There are schools in London that -- alone -- sent more to Oxbridge than this.

    The only reason data like this -- the overwhelming Oxbridge bias to London, the South and the East -- is more widely known is because of David Lammy.

    Labour have tonnes of vacuous, space-wasting Welsh MPs.

    None of them have ever managed to raise this issue, which has persisted for decades. It was left to David Lammy to make the running.

    I've got a lot of time for David Lammy.
    Thanks for that info - I hadn't heard of it.
    Thanks also. What an extraordinary fact. I wasn't aware of it either.

    Wales is now a very poor region, on a par with Cornwall and also with parts of eastern Europe. Probably students and schools both have low expectations too. If students don't apply to the top institutions, I don't blame Oxbridge, UCL, Imperial or Kings College (five of the best) for being unable to consider their application.
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    FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 76,285
    kle4 said:

    TOPPING said:

    jonny83 said:

    It won't do any damage to Corbyn, nothing ever does.

    That is also true.
    Something will do eventually - every political career ends in failure.
    Sure - the realities of government will dent his popularity.
    Until there is a bog roll shortage people will find other people to blame, Thatcher, the Tories, Brexit, the bankers , the Illuminati, the Jews...
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    kle4kle4 Posts: 91,725

    Judging by the tone of the debate the PM would comfortably win a retrospective vote on the military action with consequent political advantage. Is it the case that she genuinely thinks that would be the wrong thing to do?

    I think she genuinely thinks it would have delayed matters, and/or been much closer, if they had been asked first. But that's just a blind guess.
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    jonny83jonny83 Posts: 1,261

    TOPPING said:

    jonny83 said:

    It won't do any damage to Corbyn, nothing ever does.

    That is also true.
    Something will do eventually - every political career ends in failure.
    It will be something nobody expects most likely, something fairly tame compared to past crises that ends his career.

    It certainly won't be this.
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    FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 76,285

    God knows I've taken the piss out of Lammy plenty of times on here, but he was excellent asking about Windrush: https://order-order.com/2018/04/16/rudd-attacks-home-office/

    I'm very conflicted about Lammy. He can speak very eloquently and intelligently about certain topics, and obviously cares deeply about others. And then he says stuff that makes me thing "whaaaaat the f****k?"
    Here's another point in favour of Lammy.

    Lammy went to the trouble of finding out about the huge Oxbridge bias against, amongst other things, Welsh students.

    In 2016, Cambridge accepted just 57 Welsh students. There are schools in London that -- alone -- sent more to Oxbridge than this.

    The only reason data like this -- the overwhelming Oxbridge bias to London, the South and the East -- is more widely known is because of David Lammy.

    Labour have tonnes of vacuous, space-wasting Welsh MPs.

    None of them have ever managed to raise this issue, which has persisted for decades. It was left to David Lammy to make the running.

    I've got a lot of time for David Lammy.
    Thanks for that info - I hadn't heard of it.
    Thanks also. What an extraordinary fact. I wasn't aware of it either.

    Wales is now a very poor region, on a par with Cornwall and also with parts of eastern Europe. Probably students and schools both have low expectations too. If students don't apply to the top institutions, I don't blame Oxbridge, UCL, Imperial or Kings College (five of the best) for being unable to consider their application.
    Are you saying that the Labour run administration perhaps isn't doing a great job in terms of education, health, business investment...
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    kle4kle4 Posts: 91,725

    kle4 said:

    TOPPING said:

    jonny83 said:

    It won't do any damage to Corbyn, nothing ever does.

    That is also true.
    Something will do eventually - every political career ends in failure.
    Sure - the realities of government will dent his popularity.
    Until there is a bog roll shortage people will find other people to blame, Thatcher, the Tories, Brexit, the bankers , the Illuminati, the Jews...
    Oh, government's get by on 'the last government' excuse for a long time - Brown was still occasionally using it 13 years in, and this government is definitely still using it - but it won't be 100% effective, and he will lose ground.
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    MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 37,607

    Judging by the tone of the debate the PM would comfortably win a retrospective vote on the military action with consequent political advantage. Is it the case that she genuinely thinks that would be the wrong thing to do?

    It's possible that she wants to return to the convention of royal prerogative for military action. Which is fair IMO. Parliamentary debates remove all element of decisive action, which is necessary for many military operations.
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    TOPPING said:

    jonny83 said:

    It won't do any damage to Corbyn, nothing ever does.

    That is also true.
    His poll ratings are plummeting even though the headline rates are near enough tied
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    steve_garnersteve_garner Posts: 1,019
    MaxPB said:

    Judging by the tone of the debate the PM would comfortably win a retrospective vote on the military action with consequent political advantage. Is it the case that she genuinely thinks that would be the wrong thing to do?

    It's possible that she wants to return to the convention of royal prerogative for military action. Which is fair IMO. Parliamentary debates remove all element of decisive action, which is necessary for many military operations.
    Yes I agree. It's her not going for a retrospective vote that I'm curious about.
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    FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 76,285
    State-sponsored Russian hackers are actively seeking to hijack essential internet hardware, US and UK intelligence agencies say.

    http://www.bbc.com/news/technology-43788338
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    MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 37,607

    State-sponsored Russian hackers are actively seeking to hijack essential internet hardware, US and UK intelligence agencies say.

    http://www.bbc.com/news/technology-43788338

    I'm sure their Chinese friends at Huawei and other state sponsored Chinese companies will be more than happy to lend a hand. At least the US understands this and have blocked these dodgy Chinese companies from their infrastructure. The UK and Europe needs to do the same.
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    Ishmael_ZIshmael_Z Posts: 8,981

    MaxPB said:

    Judging by the tone of the debate the PM would comfortably win a retrospective vote on the military action with consequent political advantage. Is it the case that she genuinely thinks that would be the wrong thing to do?

    It's possible that she wants to return to the convention of royal prerogative for military action. Which is fair IMO. Parliamentary debates remove all element of decisive action, which is necessary for many military operations.
    Yes I agree. It's her not going for a retrospective vote that I'm curious about.
    Is there such a thing, and if so is it seriously an option to have one now? It would be a rubbish idea both as a precedent, and because of the asymmetry of the outcome - winning would be meaningless, losing would be tantamount to a no confidence vote.
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    FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 76,285
    A British delegation including Anglican vicars Andrew Ashdown and Giles Fraser and peers Baroness Cox and Lord Dykes have been holding meetings with the Assad regime.

    And they have been tweeting pictures praising how pretty the city is and condemning the airstrikes launched by Britain, the US and France.

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-5620467/British-church-leaders-slammed-visiting-Syria-talks-Assad-regime.html
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    AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 30,340

    State-sponsored Russian hackers are actively seeking to hijack essential internet hardware, US and UK intelligence agencies say.

    http://www.bbc.com/news/technology-43788338

    It's a pretty safe bet that the Pentagon and GCHQ are also building capability in this area (they'd be negligent not to). That in turn leads to the questions what that capability in practice is, and how do they practise in the wild? And, indeed, what are they doing now?
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    steve_garnersteve_garner Posts: 1,019
    Mary Creagh delivering a strong statement of support for the PM. No contribution from Woodcock yet.
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    FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 76,285
    edited April 2018
    MaxPB said:

    State-sponsored Russian hackers are actively seeking to hijack essential internet hardware, US and UK intelligence agencies say.

    http://www.bbc.com/news/technology-43788338

    I'm sure their Chinese friends at Huawei and other state sponsored Chinese companies will be more than happy to lend a hand. At least the US understands this and have blocked these dodgy Chinese companies from their infrastructure. The UK and Europe needs to do the same.
    It is bonkers that BT has partnered with one of the named Chinese companies, ZTE, whose equipment the spooks say 'poses risk to UK security'.
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    steve_garnersteve_garner Posts: 1,019
    Ishmael_Z said:

    MaxPB said:

    Judging by the tone of the debate the PM would comfortably win a retrospective vote on the military action with consequent political advantage. Is it the case that she genuinely thinks that would be the wrong thing to do?

    It's possible that she wants to return to the convention of royal prerogative for military action. Which is fair IMO. Parliamentary debates remove all element of decisive action, which is necessary for many military operations.
    Yes I agree. It's her not going for a retrospective vote that I'm curious about.
    Is there such a thing, and if so is it seriously an option to have one now? It would be a rubbish idea both as a precedent, and because of the asymmetry of the outcome - winning would be meaningless, losing would be tantamount to a no confidence vote.
    Cameron held a retrospective vote on Libya, did he not?
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    FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 76,285
    Should also add, this weeks Silicon Valley was very funny, as the Jian Yang is caught copying the new new internet idea.
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    jonny83jonny83 Posts: 1,261
    May has come out of this well. Those opposed will stay opposed those in favor will stay in favor but those on the fence or unsure I can see backing the PM on this.

    Will be interesting to see how the public mood is/or changes if we intervene again.
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    DecrepitJohnLDecrepitJohnL Posts: 13,300
    MaxPB said:

    State-sponsored Russian hackers are actively seeking to hijack essential internet hardware, US and UK intelligence agencies say.

    http://www.bbc.com/news/technology-43788338

    I'm sure their Chinese friends at Huawei and other state sponsored Chinese companies will be more than happy to lend a hand. At least the US understands this and have blocked these dodgy Chinese companies from their infrastructure. The UK and Europe needs to do the same.
    Agreed. Nuclear power stations as well.
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    Ishmael_ZIshmael_Z Posts: 8,981

    Ishmael_Z said:

    MaxPB said:

    Judging by the tone of the debate the PM would comfortably win a retrospective vote on the military action with consequent political advantage. Is it the case that she genuinely thinks that would be the wrong thing to do?

    It's possible that she wants to return to the convention of royal prerogative for military action. Which is fair IMO. Parliamentary debates remove all element of decisive action, which is necessary for many military operations.
    Yes I agree. It's her not going for a retrospective vote that I'm curious about.
    Is there such a thing, and if so is it seriously an option to have one now? It would be a rubbish idea both as a precedent, and because of the asymmetry of the outcome - winning would be meaningless, losing would be tantamount to a no confidence vote.
    Cameron held a retrospective vote on Libya, did he not?
    Not that google knows about. The 21/3/11 vote was 2 days after we went in, but it was about continuing with the operation, not retrospectively oking what had already happened. Of course it implies being ok with what has been done to date, but it isn't meaningless the way a vote which was expressly and only about the past would be.
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    MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 37,607

    MaxPB said:

    State-sponsored Russian hackers are actively seeking to hijack essential internet hardware, US and UK intelligence agencies say.

    http://www.bbc.com/news/technology-43788338

    I'm sure their Chinese friends at Huawei and other state sponsored Chinese companies will be more than happy to lend a hand. At least the US understands this and have blocked these dodgy Chinese companies from their infrastructure. The UK and Europe needs to do the same.
    Agreed. Nuclear power stations as well.
    There's an even better solution to nuclear power stations, don't bother.
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    NorthofStokeNorthofStoke Posts: 1,758
    TOPPING said:

    jonny83 said:

    It won't do any damage to Corbyn, nothing ever does.

    That is also true.
    Chip, chip, chip. Crack. Collapse.
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    DavidLDavidL Posts: 51,268
    So Corbyn is once again an embarrassment to his party and his MPs who line up to condemn him. First Salisbury then this. you’d like to think that Her Majesty’s Loyal opposition could not go on like this but the evidence is that it can and it will.

    It is really sad what has happened to Labour but the members have no one to blame but themselves.
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    kle4kle4 Posts: 91,725
    DavidL said:

    So Corbyn is once again an embarrassment to his party and his MPs who line up to condemn him. First Salisbury then this. you’d like to think that Her Majesty’s Loyal opposition could not go on like this but the evidence is that it can and it will.

    It is really sad what has happened to Labour but the members have no one to blame but themselves.

    The public are, so far, rewarding it, so we can be blamed too.
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    jonny83 said:

    May has come out of this well. Those opposed will stay opposed those in favor will stay in favor but those on the fence or unsure I can see backing the PM on this.

    Will be interesting to see how the public mood is/or changes if we intervene again.

    If we need to intervene again, then the current intervention will have been a failure.
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    AnneJGPAnneJGP Posts: 2,869
    DavidL said:

    So Corbyn is once again an embarrassment to his party and his MPs who line up to condemn him. First Salisbury then this. you’d like to think that Her Majesty’s Loyal opposition could not go on like this but the evidence is that it can and it will.

    It is really sad what has happened to Labour but the members have no one to blame but themselves.

    AIUI, they're excited about what's happened to Labour and are extremely pleased with themselves,as well as with Mr Corbyn.

    Good evening, everybody.
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    DavidLDavidL Posts: 51,268
    kle4 said:

    DavidL said:

    So Corbyn is once again an embarrassment to his party and his MPs who line up to condemn him. First Salisbury then this. you’d like to think that Her Majesty’s Loyal opposition could not go on like this but the evidence is that it can and it will.

    It is really sad what has happened to Labour but the members have no one to blame but themselves.

    The public are, so far, rewarding it, so we can be blamed too.
    True. There is a desperate need to prioritise. First the safety of the nation and its citizens, then our national interest, then...., then free bus passes for under 25s. Maybe 20th on the list?
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    justin124justin124 Posts: 11,527
    Whilst I share the revulsion at the Syrian atrocities and the apparent complicity of Putin's despotic Russian regime, I do have difficulty in accepting that the effective impotence of the UN bestows an a priori authority on the US, UK and France to act as self-appointed international policemen when it suits them.These states had no more authority to intervene in this way than any of the Scandinavian countries or Spain, Portugal & Turkey.There is the potential for a dangerous precedent being set here - to be used in the future by other states with more malign intent.
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    kle4kle4 Posts: 91,725
    justin124 said:

    Whilst I share the revulsion at the Syrian atrocities and the apparent complicity of Putin's despotic Russian regime, I do have difficulty in accepting that the effective impotence of the UN bestows an a priori authority on the US, UK and France to act as self-appointed international policemen when it suits them.These states had no more authority to intervene in this way than any of the Scandinavian countries or Spain, Portugal & Turkey.There is the potential for a dangerous precedent being set here - to be used in the future by other states with more malign intent.

    I'm not in favour of strikes as I don't see what it will achieve (though I hope to be proven wrong in that), but I hardly think what is going on here is so unique as to be setting a precedent. Nations act as it suits them all the time, if they can get away with it, I cannot see that we are setting something here.
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    ElliotElliot Posts: 1,516
    justin124 said:

    Whilst I share the revulsion at the Syrian atrocities and the apparent complicity of Putin's despotic Russian regime, I do have difficulty in accepting that the effective impotence of the UN bestows an a priori authority on the US, UK and France to act as self-appointed international policemen when it suits them.These states had no more authority to intervene in this way than any of the Scandinavian countries or Spain, Portugal & Turkey.There is the potential for a dangerous precedent being set here - to be used in the future by other states with more malign intent.

    With power comes responsibility.
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    ydoethurydoethur Posts: 67,204
    edited April 2018
    justin124 said:

    Whilst I share the revulsion at the Syrian atrocities and the apparent complicity of Putin's despotic Russian regime, I do have difficulty in accepting that the effective impotence of the UN bestows an a priori authority on the US, UK and France to act as self-appointed international policemen when it suits them.These states had no more authority to intervene in this way than any of the Scandinavian countries or Spain, Portugal & Turkey.There is the potential for a dangerous precedent being set here - to be used in the future by other states with more malign intent.

    Rowan Williams made much the same point over Iraq, which is where the precedent dates from.

    The real story surrounding your point however is that the UN Security Council isn't fit for purpose. It would be far, far more effective as an organisation if there were a mechanism for overriding a permanent member's veto - say a two thirds majority of the full assembly.
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    DavidLDavidL Posts: 51,268
    justin124 said:

    Whilst I share the revulsion at the Syrian atrocities and the apparent complicity of Putin's despotic Russian regime, I do have difficulty in accepting that the effective impotence of the UN bestows an a priori authority on the US, UK and France to act as self-appointed international policemen when it suits them.These states had no more authority to intervene in this way than any of the Scandinavian countries or Spain, Portugal & Turkey.There is the potential for a dangerous precedent being set here - to be used in the future by other states with more malign intent.

    I’m afraid that just recognises the reality, that international law is a chocolate fire guard which protects no one. Major powers will act in their interests as they perceive them. Pretending otherwise is childish and leaves others in control of the field.

    The idea that these other countries need a precedent is naive.
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    kle4kle4 Posts: 91,725
    ydoethur said:

    justin124 said:

    Whilst I share the revulsion at the Syrian atrocities and the apparent complicity of Putin's despotic Russian regime, I do have difficulty in accepting that the effective impotence of the UN bestows an a priori authority on the US, UK and France to act as self-appointed international policemen when it suits them.These states had no more authority to intervene in this way than any of the Scandinavian countries or Spain, Portugal & Turkey.There is the potential for a dangerous precedent being set here - to be used in the future by other states with more malign intent.

    Rowan Williams made much the same point over Iraq, which is where the precedent dates from.

    The real story surrounding your point however is that the UN Security Council isn't fit for purpose. It would be far, far more effective as an organisation if there were a mechanism for overriding a permanent member's veto - say a two thirds majority of the full assembly.
    I thought there was such a mechanism? Although clearly it is a high barrier.

    And of course removing the veto altogether would require us to give up ours, so we aren't going to be the ones to propose that.
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    FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 76,285
    Facebook has banned the American white nationalist who popularised the term "alternative right".

    Richard Spencer's page on the social network was removed on Friday along with two other pages he controlled: that of his National Policy Institute think tank, and one promoting his AltRight.com news analysis website.

    http://www.bbc.com/news/technology-43784982
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    justin124justin124 Posts: 11,527
    kle4 said:

    justin124 said:

    Whilst I share the revulsion at the Syrian atrocities and the apparent complicity of Putin's despotic Russian regime, I do have difficulty in accepting that the effective impotence of the UN bestows an a priori authority on the US, UK and France to act as self-appointed international policemen when it suits them.These states had no more authority to intervene in this way than any of the Scandinavian countries or Spain, Portugal & Turkey.There is the potential for a dangerous precedent being set here - to be used in the future by other states with more malign intent.

    I'm not in favour of strikes as I don't see what it will achieve (though I hope to be proven wrong in that), but I hardly think what is going on here is so unique as to be setting a precedent. Nations act as it suits them all the time, if they can get away with it, I cannot see that we are setting something here.
    But the hypocrisy of it all is so striking - and deprives those states which embark on such action of moral authority. Whilst International Lawyers hold different opinions on these issues, it is not unreasonable for some to argue that Assad's breach of an international agreement has been followed by the US, Britain and France doing likewise by breaking the UN Charter.Many will seize on that to say such states are little better than Russia et al in that they ignore the rule of law when it suits them.
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    TheWhiteRabbitTheWhiteRabbit Posts: 12,388

    State-sponsored Russian hackers are actively seeking to hijack essential internet hardware, US and UK intelligence agencies say.

    http://www.bbc.com/news/technology-43788338

    It's a pretty safe bet that the Pentagon and GCHQ are also building capability in this area (they'd be negligent not to). That in turn leads to the questions what that capability in practice is, and how do they practise in the wild? And, indeed, what are they doing now?
    They've targeted Iran and North Korea before.

    Otherwise I assume it is wargamed.
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    TheWhiteRabbitTheWhiteRabbit Posts: 12,388

    MaxPB said:

    Judging by the tone of the debate the PM would comfortably win a retrospective vote on the military action with consequent political advantage. Is it the case that she genuinely thinks that would be the wrong thing to do?

    It's possible that she wants to return to the convention of royal prerogative for military action. Which is fair IMO. Parliamentary debates remove all element of decisive action, which is necessary for many military operations.
    Yes I agree. It's her not going for a retrospective vote that I'm curious about.
    What happens if they vote no? May required to report herself to the Hague?

    That sounds flippant, but my question is serious.
This discussion has been closed.