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politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » The Tories hold on against an SNP challenge in Scotland but lo

SystemSystem Posts: 11,007
edited April 2018 in General

imagepoliticalbetting.com » Blog Archive » The Tories hold on against an SNP challenge in Scotland but lose 2 seats to the LDs in England

Highland on Perth and Kinross (Con defence) Result: Con 1,907 (47% +2% on last time), Lab 239 (6% no candidate last time), Lib Dem 78 (2% -1% on last time), Green 104 (3% -1% on last time), Ind (Taylor) 280 (7%), Ind (Baykal) 12 (0%), SNP 1,466 (36% +1% on last time) Conservative lead over SNP of 441 (9%) on a swing of 0.5% from SNP to Con Total Independent vote: 292 (7% -4% on last time) No candidate elected on first count, Baykal (Independent) elminated Details of further counts not published save Conservative HOLD

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Comments

  • Options
    Pro_RataPro_Rata Posts: 4,801
    edited April 2018
    First
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    2
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    Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 60,969
    I wonder how long Cable will linger.
  • Options
    SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 20,581
    A terrrrrrrible night for the Conservatives. In England, anyway.

    The Warrington Greens must be wondering why they bothered.
  • Options
    AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 29,395
    "Former Home Secretary Alan Johnson has said the destruction of Windrush landing cards was "an administrative decision" taken while he was Home Secretary in 2009."

    https://www.politicshome.com/news/uk/political-parties/labour-party/news/94529/watch-alan-johnson-says-windrush-landing-cards
  • Options
    Tissue_PriceTissue_Price Posts: 9,039
    Full Perth result here. Terrible software they're using when it can't get rid of the .000000s for an AV election...
  • Options
    DavidLDavidL Posts: 51,130

    A terrrrrrrible night for the Conservatives. In England, anyway.

    The Warrington Greens must be wondering why they bothered.

    Not enough votes for a decent coffee morning.
  • Options
    david_herdsondavid_herdson Posts: 17,419
    Another good night for the Lib Dems. They really are good at district council by-elections. Whether they're big league players we'll see in two weeks.
  • Options
    DavidLDavidL Posts: 51,130
    The report that @Scott_P had for the Highland ward was ultimately a swing from SNP to Tory of 1.9% which might suggest that the Tories are still squeezing those unionist votes. I calculated that this was worth +77 votes on 2017 compared to Pete Wishart's Parliamentary majority of 21.

    Long way to the next election but that seat continues to look very vulnerable.
  • Options
    RobDRobD Posts: 58,961

    Scott_P said:
    On the other hand, here is Theresa May on the subject...

    twitter.com/DavidLammy/status/986977664731942912?t=1&cn=ZmxleGlibGVfcmVjcw%3D%3D&refsrc=email&iid=fa06ea2ee9404cdd854304673094f346&uid=65433010&nid=244+272699400
    Not sure Johnson can resign from a position he has already left.
  • Options
    DavidLDavidL Posts: 51,130
    RobD said:

    Scott_P said:
    On the other hand, here is Theresa May on the subject...

    twitter.com/DavidLammy/status/986977664731942912?t=1&cn=ZmxleGlibGVfcmVjcw%3D%3D&refsrc=email&iid=fa06ea2ee9404cdd854304673094f346&uid=65433010&nid=244+272699400
    Not sure Johnson can resign from a position he has already left.
    Never stopped Lord Falconer.
  • Options
    SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 20,581
    Scott_P said:
    May and Rudd. Two cheeks of the same thing with two cheeks.

    They are making Priti and Esther look moderate.
  • Options
    AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 29,395
    Can someone please inform David Lammy that Alan Johnson has admitted the decision to destroy the landing cards was taken when he was Home Secretary.
  • Options
    rural_voterrural_voter Posts: 2,038
    AndyJS said:

    "Former Home Secretary Alan Johnson has said the destruction of Windrush landing cards was "an administrative decision" taken while he was Home Secretary in 2009."

    https://www.politicshome.com/news/uk/political-parties/labour-party/news/94529/watch-alan-johnson-says-windrush-landing-cards

    It sounds like a repeat of past excuses

    'The previous government made the decision.'
    'I only make policy; they decide operational matters.'

    Lord Carrington resigned from the F.Office as a matter of honour when the Falklands were invaded. That's the way to do it.

    Using the Carrington code of honour, Johnson was arguably responsible for the decision and May was responsible for its execution ... or for reconsidering it, given that destroying the last copy of something is a pretty major matter.

    Income tax records aren't destroyed for 100 years are they? Now they're digital, the Revenue probably has people responsible for transferring the scanned images to new storage media at regular intervals. I fail to see why immigration records aren't as important.

    It's a grand, all-party cockup.
  • Options
    FF43FF43 Posts: 15,692
    edited April 2018
    AndyJS said:

    Can someone please inform David Lammy that Alan Johnson has admitted the decision to destroy the landing cards was taken when he was Home Secretary.

    Commonwealth residents aren't being harassed NOW because of landing cards that were destroyed in 2010.
  • Options
    RobDRobD Posts: 58,961
    FF43 said:

    AndyJS said:

    Can someone please inform David Lammy that Alan Johnson has admitted the decision to destroy the landing cards was taken when he was Home Secretary.

    Commonwealth residents aren't being harassed because of missing landing cards.
    I thought they were UK citizens? In any case, the lack of them certainly didn’t help.
  • Options
    Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 60,251
    edited April 2018
    AndyJS said:

    Can someone please inform David Lammy that Alan Johnson has admitted the decision to destroy the landing cards was taken when he was Home Secretary.

    To assist

    Latest on Windrush: Alan Johnson says landing cards decision was made in 2009

    Alan Johnson: "It was an administrative decision taken by the UK Border Agency"
    The decision to destroy the landing cards for Windrush migrants was taken under Labour, former home secretary Alan Johnson has said.

    Asked if he knew about the 2009 decision, he told the BBC: "No, it was an administrative decision taken by the UK Border Agency."

    The cards were then destroyed in 2010, when Theresa May was home secretary.

    Labour Leader Jeremy Corbyn and Mrs May clashed over the issue at prime minister's questions.

    On Wednesday, Mr Corbyn accused the government of being "callous and incompetent" and asked if Mrs May, then home secretary, had "signed off" on the decision to destroy the landing cards which was now "causing such pain and such stress to a whole generation" of Windrush migrants.

    She replied that the decision had been taken under the previous Labour government in 2009.

    Mr Johnson suggested that Mr Corbyn had been "misled" over the issue: "The previous evening, as I understand it... Number 10 were briefing that this happened in 2010.

    "What she had up her sleeve, whether it was deliberate or whatever - all's fair in love and Prime Minister's Questions - was that the decision was taken under us."


    Politics Hey
  • Options
    DavidLDavidL Posts: 51,130

    AndyJS said:

    "Former Home Secretary Alan Johnson has said the destruction of Windrush landing cards was "an administrative decision" taken while he was Home Secretary in 2009."

    https://www.politicshome.com/news/uk/political-parties/labour-party/news/94529/watch-alan-johnson-says-windrush-landing-cards

    It sounds like a repeat of past excuses

    'The previous government made the decision.'
    'I only make policy; they decide operational matters.'

    Lord Carrington resigned from the F.Office as a matter of honour when the Falklands were invaded. That's the way to do it.

    Using the Carrington code of honour, Johnson was arguably responsible for the decision and May was responsible for its execution ... or for reconsidering it, given that destroying the last copy of something is a pretty major matter.

    Income tax records aren't destroyed for 100 years are they? Now they're digital, the Revenue probably has people responsible for transferring the scanned images to new storage media at regular intervals. I fail to see why immigration records aren't as important.

    It's a grand, all-party cockup.
    Well, except for the fact that if there had not been changes of policy after the destruction of the landing cards which involved pursuing long term but not adequately documented residents none of it would have mattered.

    A counsel of perfection might be that before the Government puts extremely onerous obligations on people to document themselves they might reflect on what documentation they have themselves and what they might have had but for prior decisions (of whatever government). Going even further into my fantasy such a hypothetical minister might reflect whether it is terribly fair to ask people to produce records from a time when the government itself has got rid of them.
  • Options
    FF43FF43 Posts: 15,692
    RobD said:

    FF43 said:

    AndyJS said:

    Can someone please inform David Lammy that Alan Johnson has admitted the decision to destroy the landing cards was taken when he was Home Secretary.

    Commonwealth residents aren't being harassed because of missing landing cards.
    I thought they were UK citizens? In any case, the lack of them certainly didn’t help.
    The purpose of Theresa May's Hostile Immigration Environment was to make them non-residents. You are only a UK citizen if you can prove you are. Upto then they didn't need to prove it.
  • Options
    RobDRobD Posts: 58,961
    edited April 2018
    FF43 said:

    RobD said:

    FF43 said:

    AndyJS said:

    Can someone please inform David Lammy that Alan Johnson has admitted the decision to destroy the landing cards was taken when he was Home Secretary.

    Commonwealth residents aren't being harassed because of missing landing cards.
    I thought they were UK citizens? In any case, the lack of them certainly didn’t help.
    The purpose of Theresa May's Hostile Immigration Environment was to make them non-residents. You are only a UK citizen if you can prove you are. Upto then they didn't need to prove it.
    Wasn’t the purpose to find people who are in the UK illegally? Not sure there’s anything wrong with that in principle. And correct me if I’m wrong, but didn’t this come about because some were applying for passports. I think everyone has to prove they are citizens for that.
  • Options
    FF43FF43 Posts: 15,692
    edited April 2018
    RobD said:

    FF43 said:

    RobD said:

    FF43 said:

    AndyJS said:

    Can someone please inform David Lammy that Alan Johnson has admitted the decision to destroy the landing cards was taken when he was Home Secretary.

    Commonwealth residents aren't being harassed because of missing landing cards.
    I thought they were UK citizens? In any case, the lack of them certainly didn’t help.
    The purpose of Theresa May's Hostile Immigration Environment was to make them non-residents. You are only a UK citizen if you can prove you are. Upto then they didn't need to prove it.
    Wasn’t the purpose to find people who are in the UK illegally? Not sure there’s anything wrong with that in principle. And correct me if I’m wrong, but didn’t this come about because some were applying for passports. I think everyone has to prove they are citizens for that.
    The purpose was to deport as many people as possible or push them out so as to get the net migration figure down to the 100 000 a year figure that Theresa May promised but failed to deliver. The callousness of that policy is not something that bothers her at all.
  • Options
    AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 29,395
    edited April 2018
    FF43 said:

    AndyJS said:

    Can someone please inform David Lammy that Alan Johnson has admitted the decision to destroy the landing cards was taken when he was Home Secretary.

    Commonwealth residents aren't being harassed NOW because of landing cards that were destroyed in 2010.
    Do you think this is institutional racism in action?
  • Options
    RobDRobD Posts: 58,961
    edited April 2018
    FF43 said:

    RobD said:

    FF43 said:

    RobD said:

    FF43 said:

    AndyJS said:

    Can someone please inform David Lammy that Alan Johnson has admitted the decision to destroy the landing cards was taken when he was Home Secretary.

    Commonwealth residents aren't being harassed because of missing landing cards.
    I thought they were UK citizens? In any case, the lack of them certainly didn’t help.
    The purpose of Theresa May's Hostile Immigration Environment was to make them non-residents. You are only a UK citizen if you can prove you are. Upto then they didn't need to prove it.
    Wasn’t the purpose to find people who are in the UK illegally? Not sure there’s anything wrong with that in principle. And correct me if I’m wrong, but didn’t this come about because some were applying for passports. I think everyone has to prove they are citizens for that.
    The purpose was to deport as many people as possible or push them out so as to get the net migration figure down to the 100 000 a year figure that Theresa May but failed to deliver. The callousness of that policy is not something that bothers her at all.
    There’s no way that deportations would have got the migration figure down that low, no way at all, so I cannot believe that was the purpose. I think the purpose was to find people in the UK illegally, and there’s nothing wrong with that in principle.
  • Options
    FF43FF43 Posts: 15,692
    AndyJS said:

    FF43 said:

    AndyJS said:

    Can someone please inform David Lammy that Alan Johnson has admitted the decision to destroy the landing cards was taken when he was Home Secretary.

    Commonwealth residents aren't being harassed NOW because of landing cards that were destroyed in 2010.
    Do you think this is institutional racism in action?
    No. I think it is simply aimed at getting the net migration figure down.
  • Options
    DavidLDavidL Posts: 51,130
    RobD said:

    FF43 said:

    RobD said:

    FF43 said:

    AndyJS said:

    Can someone please inform David Lammy that Alan Johnson has admitted the decision to destroy the landing cards was taken when he was Home Secretary.

    Commonwealth residents aren't being harassed because of missing landing cards.
    I thought they were UK citizens? In any case, the lack of them certainly didn’t help.
    The purpose of Theresa May's Hostile Immigration Environment was to make them non-residents. You are only a UK citizen if you can prove you are. Upto then they didn't need to prove it.
    Wasn’t the purpose to find people who are in the UK illegally? Not sure there’s anything wrong with that in principle. And correct me if I’m wrong, but didn’t this come about because some were applying for passports. I think everyone has to prove they are citizens for that.
    This has arisen because their lack of documentation and the hostile environment introduced or at least significantly extended by the Immigration Act 2016 means that it is much more difficult now for them to rent a house, open a bank account, get a driving licence, get employment, qualify for benefits etc. A landlord, bank or employer who took or kept them on would be taking a considerable risk and in several cases they have (understandably, given the way £10k fines are handed out) chosen not to do so.
  • Options
    FF43FF43 Posts: 15,692
    RobD said:

    FF43 said:

    RobD said:

    FF43 said:

    RobD said:

    FF43 said:

    AndyJS said:

    Can someone please inform David Lammy that Alan Johnson has admitted the decision to destroy the landing cards was taken when he was Home Secretary.

    Commonwealth residents aren't being harassed because of missing landing cards.
    I thought they were UK citizens? In any case, the lack of them certainly didn’t help.
    The purpose of Theresa May's Hostile Immigration Environment was to make them non-residents. You are only a UK citizen if you can prove you are. Upto then they didn't need to prove it.
    Wasn’t the purpose to find people who are in the UK illegally? Not sure there’s anything wrong with that in principle. And correct me if I’m wrong, but didn’t this come about because some were applying for passports. I think everyone has to prove they are citizens for that.
    The purpose was to deport as many people as possible or push them out so as to get the net migration figure down to the 100 000 a year figure that Theresa May but failed to deliver. The callousness of that policy is not something that bothers her at all.
    There’s no way that deportations would have got the migration figure down that low, no way at all, so I cannot believe that was the purpose. I think the purpose was to find people in the UK illegally, and there’s nothing wrong with that in principle.
    The aim is to discourage by making people's lives miserable. Then you don't need to deport.
  • Options
    murali_smurali_s Posts: 3,040
    edited April 2018

    Scott_P said:
    May and Rudd. Two cheeks of the same thing with two cheeks.

    They are making Priti and Esther look moderate.
    Nasty pieces of work!

    Tories, out, out, out!!!!!
  • Options
    FF43 said:

    RobD said:

    FF43 said:

    AndyJS said:

    Can someone please inform David Lammy that Alan Johnson has admitted the decision to destroy the landing cards was taken when he was Home Secretary.

    Commonwealth residents aren't being harassed because of missing landing cards.
    I thought they were UK citizens? In any case, the lack of them certainly didn’t help.
    The purpose of Theresa May's Hostile Immigration Environment was to make them non-residents. You are only a UK citizen if you can prove you are. Upto then they didn't need to prove it.
    Hostile immigration was first quoted by a labour home secretary in Blair years
  • Options
    FF43 said:

    RobD said:

    FF43 said:

    RobD said:

    FF43 said:

    AndyJS said:

    Can someone please inform David Lammy that Alan Johnson has admitted the decision to destroy the landing cards was taken when he was Home Secretary.

    Commonwealth residents aren't being harassed because of missing landing cards.
    I thought they were UK citizens? In any case, the lack of them certainly didn’t help.
    The purpose of Theresa May's Hostile Immigration Environment was to make them non-residents. You are only a UK citizen if you can prove you are. Upto then they didn't need to prove it.
    Wasn’t the purpose to find people who are in the UK illegally? Not sure there’s anything wrong with that in principle. And correct me if I’m wrong, but didn’t this come about because some were applying for passports. I think everyone has to prove they are citizens for that.
    The purpose was to deport as many people as possible or push them out so as to get the net migration figure down to the 100 000 a year figure that Theresa May promised but failed to deliver. The callousness of that policy is not something that bothers her at all.
    It was to deport illegal immigrants.
  • Options
    RobDRobD Posts: 58,961
    FF43 said:

    RobD said:

    FF43 said:

    RobD said:

    FF43 said:

    RobD said:

    FF43 said:

    AndyJS said:

    Can someone please inform David Lammy that Alan Johnson has admitted the decision to destroy the landing cards was taken when he was Home Secretary.

    Commonwealth residents aren't being harassed because of missing landing cards.
    I thought they were UK citizens? In any case, the lack of them certainly didn’t help.
    The purpose of Theresa May's Hostile Immigration Environment was to make them non-residents. You are only a UK citizen if you can prove you are. Upto then they didn't need to prove it.
    Wasn’t the purpose to find people who are in the UK illegally? Not sure there’s anything wrong with that in principle. And correct me if I’m wrong, but didn’t this come about because some were applying for passports. I think everyone has to prove they are citizens for that.
    The purpose was to deport as many people as possible or push them out so as to get the net migration figure down to the 100 000 a year figure that Theresa May but failed to deliver. The callousness of that policy is not something that bothers her at all.
    There’s no way that deportations would have got the migration figure down that low, no way at all, so I cannot believe that was the purpose. I think the purpose was to find people in the UK illegally, and there’s nothing wrong with that in principle.
    The aim is to discourage by making people's lives miserable. Then you don't need to deport.
    So the purpose wasn’t to deport them, but to crush them into exiling themselves? Okay.
  • Options
    YorkcityYorkcity Posts: 4,382
    edited April 2018


    AndyJS said:

    Can someone please inform David Lammy that Alan Johnson has admitted the decision to destroy the landing cards was taken when he was Home Secretary.

    To assist

    Latest on Windrush: Alan Johnson says landing cards decision was made in 2009

    Alan Johnson: "It was an administrative decision taken by the UK Border Agency"
    The decision to destroy the landing cards for Windrush migrants was taken under Labour, former home secretary Alan Johnson has said.

    Asked if he knew about the 2009 decision, he told the BBC: "No, it was an administrative decision taken by the UK Border Agency."

    The cards were then destroyed in 2010, when Theresa May was home secretary.

    Labour Leader Jeremy Corbyn and Mrs May clashed over the issue at prime minister's questions.

    On Wednesday, Mr Corbyn accused the government of being "callous and incompetent" and asked if Mrs May, then home secretary, had "signed off" on the decision to destroy the landing cards which was now "causing such pain and such stress to a whole generation" of Windrush migrants.

    She replied that the decision had been taken under the previous Labour government in 2009.

    Mr Johnson suggested that Mr Corbyn had been "misled" over the issue: "The previous evening, as I understand it... Number 10 were briefing that this happened in 2010.

    "What she had up her sleeve, whether it was deliberate or whatever - all's fair in love and Prime Minister's Questions - was that the decision was taken under us."


    Politics Hey
    Pathetic really , action only seems to happen , when the Daily Mail gets upset.The same happened over Stephen Lawrence , when the Daily Mail to its credit had the headline MURDERERS.

    With Windrush where was the Home Offices moral compass?
  • Options
    FF43FF43 Posts: 15,692

    FF43 said:

    RobD said:

    FF43 said:

    AndyJS said:

    Can someone please inform David Lammy that Alan Johnson has admitted the decision to destroy the landing cards was taken when he was Home Secretary.

    Commonwealth residents aren't being harassed because of missing landing cards.
    I thought they were UK citizens? In any case, the lack of them certainly didn’t help.
    The purpose of Theresa May's Hostile Immigration Environment was to make them non-residents. You are only a UK citizen if you can prove you are. Upto then they didn't need to prove it.
    Hostile immigration was first quoted by a labour home secretary in Blair years
    Indeed, but Theresa May took the policy to a much higher level. The Windrush scandal happened as a result of her policy, not Blair's.
  • Options
    RobDRobD Posts: 58,961
    DavidL said:

    RobD said:

    FF43 said:

    RobD said:

    FF43 said:

    AndyJS said:

    Can someone please inform David Lammy that Alan Johnson has admitted the decision to destroy the landing cards was taken when he was Home Secretary.

    Commonwealth residents aren't being harassed because of missing landing cards.
    I thought they were UK citizens? In any case, the lack of them certainly didn’t help.
    The purpose of Theresa May's Hostile Immigration Environment was to make them non-residents. You are only a UK citizen if you can prove you are. Upto then they didn't need to prove it.
    Wasn’t the purpose to find people who are in the UK illegally? Not sure there’s anything wrong with that in principle. And correct me if I’m wrong, but didn’t this come about because some were applying for passports. I think everyone has to prove they are citizens for that.
    This has arisen because their lack of documentation and the hostile environment introduced or at least significantly extended by the Immigration Act 2016 means that it is much more difficult now for them to rent a house, open a bank account, get a driving licence, get employment, qualify for benefits etc. A landlord, bank or employer who took or kept them on would be taking a considerable risk and in several cases they have (understandably, given the way £10k fines are handed out) chosen not to do so.
    I generally don't have sympathy for people that can't maintain good records. I've been careful to ensure I was able to prove residency/rights in the various countries I have lived in. It isn't all that difficult, and I remember there being some skepticism about this story when it was first posted here because of how incredible the idea was of being in a country for 30+ years without being able to demonstrate that convincingly.
  • Options
    DavidLDavidL Posts: 51,130
    edited April 2018
    RobD said:

    FF43 said:

    RobD said:

    FF43 said:

    RobD said:

    FF43 said:

    AndyJS said:

    Can someone please inform David Lammy that Alan Johnson has admitted the decision to destroy the landing cards was taken when he was Home Secretary.

    Commonwealth residents aren't being harassed because of missing landing cards.
    I thought they were UK citizens? In any case, the lack of them certainly didn’t help.
    The purpose of Theresa May's Hostile Immigration Environment was to make them non-residents. You are only a UK citizen if you can prove you are. Upto then they didn't need to prove it.
    Wasn’t the purpose to find people who are in the UK illegally? Not sure there’s anything wrong with that in principle. And correct me if I’m wrong, but didn’t this come about because some were applying for passports. I think everyone has to prove they are citizens for that.
    The purpose was to deport as many people as possible or push them out so as to get the net migration figure down to the 100 000 a year figure that Theresa May but failed to deliver. The callousness of that policy is not something that bothers her at all.
    There’s no way that deportations would have got the migration figure down that low, no way at all, so I cannot believe that was the purpose. I think the purpose was to find people in the UK illegally, and there’s nothing wrong with that in principle.
    Except any Home Secretary really ought to be aware that they do not approach this with a blank sheet of paper. We have had a whole series of different immigration regimes over the last 50 years. This has produced a series of categories of residents with different levels of documentation and paperwork. Any policy that is going to massively restrict the ability of residents to live anything like normal lives really has to think this through. The obvious solution, IMO, was to grant amnesties to anyone who applied and could show that they had been here for 20 years or more, whatever their status when they initially came here.

    I have a separate concern about whether a civilised society thinks it is a good idea to have hundreds of thousands of residents outside the law and vulnerable to exploitation by preventing them from carrying out normal activities but, even in respect of your point of principle, the first stage was really essential and it was political cowardice not to do it.
  • Options
    RobDRobD Posts: 58,961
    FF43 said:

    FF43 said:

    RobD said:

    FF43 said:

    AndyJS said:

    Can someone please inform David Lammy that Alan Johnson has admitted the decision to destroy the landing cards was taken when he was Home Secretary.

    Commonwealth residents aren't being harassed because of missing landing cards.
    I thought they were UK citizens? In any case, the lack of them certainly didn’t help.
    The purpose of Theresa May's Hostile Immigration Environment was to make them non-residents. You are only a UK citizen if you can prove you are. Upto then they didn't need to prove it.
    Hostile immigration was first quoted by a labour home secretary in Blair years
    Indeed, but Theresa May took the policy to a much higher level. The Windrush scandal happened as a result of her policy, not Blair's.
    Probably wouldn't have happened if certain documentary evidence still existed.
  • Options
    TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 41,245
    Scott_P said:
    That makes no sense - if No.10 didn't like any particular cabinet minister surely they would, er, sack them.
  • Options
    YorkcityYorkcity Posts: 4,382

    FF43 said:

    RobD said:

    FF43 said:

    AndyJS said:

    Can someone please inform David Lammy that Alan Johnson has admitted the decision to destroy the landing cards was taken when he was Home Secretary.

    Commonwealth residents aren't being harassed because of missing landing cards.
    I thought they were UK citizens? In any case, the lack of them certainly didn’t help.
    The purpose of Theresa May's Hostile Immigration Environment was to make them non-residents. You are only a UK citizen if you can prove you are. Upto then they didn't need to prove it.
    Hostile immigration was first quoted by a labour home secretary in Blair years
    Yes but for god's sake , when a party has been in power 8 years , get a grip, sort it out,and take some responsibility.
  • Options
    FF43FF43 Posts: 15,692
    RobD said:

    DavidL said:

    RobD said:

    FF43 said:

    RobD said:

    FF43 said:

    AndyJS said:

    Can someone please inform David Lammy that Alan Johnson has admitted the decision to destroy the landing cards was taken when he was Home Secretary.

    Commonwealth residents aren't being harassed because of missing landing cards.
    I thought they were UK citizens? In any case, the lack of them certainly didn’t help.
    The purpose of Theresa May's Hostile Immigration Environment was to make them non-residents. You are only a UK citizen if you can prove you are. Upto then they didn't need to prove it.
    Wasn’t the purpose to find people who are in the UK illegally? Not sure there’s anything wrong with that in principle. And correct me if I’m wrong, but didn’t this come about because some were applying for passports. I think everyone has to prove they are citizens for that.
    This has arisen because their lack of documentation and the hostile environment introduced or at least significantly extended by the Immigration Act 2016 means that it is much more difficult now for them to rent a house, open a bank account, get a driving licence, get employment, qualify for benefits etc. A landlord, bank or employer who took or kept them on would be taking a considerable risk and in several cases they have (understandably, given the way £10k fines are handed out) chosen not to do so.
    I generally don't have sympathy for people that can't maintain good records. I've been careful to ensure I was able to prove residency/rights in the various countries I have lived in. It isn't all that difficult, and I remember there being some skepticism about this story when it was first posted here because of how incredible the idea was of being in a country for 30+ years without being able to demonstrate that convincingly.
    No doubt Theresa May thinks the same. Nevertheless that lack of sympathy has led directly to people not receiving critical cancer treatment and older people who have made their entire lives in this country being threatened with exile to countries they don't know. Someone with more empathy would say, there's something wrong with that.

    It's not even a difficult problem to deal with - you could allow anyone who has lived in this country for a decade or so to stay. In fact that used to be the case before it too was abolished by Theresa May
  • Options
    RobDRobD Posts: 58,961
    Yorkcity said:

    FF43 said:

    RobD said:

    FF43 said:

    AndyJS said:

    Can someone please inform David Lammy that Alan Johnson has admitted the decision to destroy the landing cards was taken when he was Home Secretary.

    Commonwealth residents aren't being harassed because of missing landing cards.
    I thought they were UK citizens? In any case, the lack of them certainly didn’t help.
    The purpose of Theresa May's Hostile Immigration Environment was to make them non-residents. You are only a UK citizen if you can prove you are. Upto then they didn't need to prove it.
    Hostile immigration was first quoted by a labour home secretary in Blair years
    Yes but for god's sake , when a party has been in power 8 years , get a grip, sort it out,and take some responsibility.
    Do remind me how long Labour were doing the same re Thatcher?
  • Options
    DavidLDavidL Posts: 51,130
    RobD said:

    DavidL said:

    RobD said:

    FF43 said:

    RobD said:

    FF43 said:

    AndyJS said:

    Can someone please inform David Lammy that Alan Johnson has admitted the decision to destroy the landing cards was taken when he was Home Secretary.

    Commonwealth residents aren't being harassed because of missing landing cards.
    I thought they were UK citizens? In any case, the lack of them certainly didn’t help.
    The purpose of Theresa May's Hostile Immigration Environment was to make them non-residents. You are only a UK citizen if you can prove you are. Upto then they didn't need to prove it.
    Wasn’t the purpose to find people who are in the UK illegally? Not sure there’s anything wrong with that in principle. And correct me if I’m wrong, but didn’t this come about because some were applying for passports. I think everyone has to prove they are citizens for that.
    This has arisen because their lack of documentation and the hostile environment introduced or at least significantly extended by the Immigration Act 2016 means that it is much more difficult now for them to rent a house, open a bank account, get a driving licence, get employment, qualify for benefits etc. A landlord, bank or employer who took or kept them on would be taking a considerable risk and in several cases they have (understandably, given the way £10k fines are handed out) chosen not to do so.
    I generally don't have sympathy for people that can't maintain good records. I've been careful to ensure I was able to prove residency/rights in the various countries I have lived in. It isn't all that difficult, and I remember there being some skepticism about this story when it was first posted here because of how incredible the idea was of being in a country for 30+ years without being able to demonstrate that convincingly.
    I think that is completely unfair. When these particular people came their parents had UK passports and they were entitled to come. What, exactly, did you expect the children who were on those passports to do? More generally, you sound very organised. My experience is that many people are not and it is frankly cruel to punish them for that. We really should be better than this.
  • Options
    YorkcityYorkcity Posts: 4,382
    RobD said:

    Yorkcity said:

    FF43 said:

    RobD said:

    FF43 said:

    AndyJS said:

    Can someone please inform David Lammy that Alan Johnson has admitted the decision to destroy the landing cards was taken when he was Home Secretary.

    Commonwealth residents aren't being harassed because of missing landing cards.
    I thought they were UK citizens? In any case, the lack of them certainly didn’t help.
    The purpose of Theresa May's Hostile Immigration Environment was to make them non-residents. You are only a UK citizen if you can prove you are. Upto then they didn't need to prove it.
    Hostile immigration was first quoted by a labour home secretary in Blair years
    Yes but for god's sake , when a party has been in power 8 years , get a grip, sort it out,and take some responsibility.
    Do remind me how long Labour were doing the same re Thatcher?
    FFS get a life.
  • Options
    RobDRobD Posts: 58,961
    DavidL said:

    RobD said:

    DavidL said:

    RobD said:

    FF43 said:

    RobD said:

    FF43 said:

    AndyJS said:

    Can someone please inform David Lammy that Alan Johnson has admitted the decision to destroy the landing cards was taken when he was Home Secretary.

    Commonwealth residents aren't being harassed because of missing landing cards.
    I thought they were UK citizens? In any case, the lack of them certainly didn’t help.
    The purpose of Theresa May's Hostile Immigration Environment was to make them non-residents. You are only a UK citizen if you can prove you are. Upto then they didn't need to prove it.
    Wasn’t the purpose to find people who are in the UK illegally? Not sure there’s anything wrong with that in principle. And correct me if I’m wrong, but didn’t this come about because some were applying for passports. I think everyone has to prove they are citizens for that.
    This has arisen because their lack of documentation and the hostile environment introduced or at least significantly extended by the Immigration Act 2016 means that it is much more difficult now for them to rent a house, open a bank account, get a driving licence, get employment, qualify for benefits etc. A landlord, bank or employer who took or kept them on would be taking a considerable risk and in several cases they have (understandably, given the way £10k fines are handed out) chosen not to do so.
    I generally don't have sympathy for people that can't maintain good records. I've been careful to ensure I was able to prove residency/rights in the various countries I have lived in. It isn't all that difficult, and I remember there being some skepticism about this story when it was first posted here because of how incredible the idea was of being in a country for 30+ years without being able to demonstrate that convincingly.
    I think that is completely unfair. When these particular people came their parents had UK passports and they were entitled to come. What, exactly, did you expect the children who were on those passports to do? More generally, you sound very organised. My experience is that many people are not and it is frankly cruel to punish them for that. We really should be better than this.
    Yeah, in this instance I do have sympathy, especially after the destruction of their records came to light! The balance has definitely gone a bit too far in one direction, but after expending all the effort I have to ensure I've maintained my legal status in the various places I have lived, I get a bit annoyed when people get a free ride after having entered illegally.
  • Options
    RobDRobD Posts: 58,961
    Yorkcity said:

    RobD said:

    Yorkcity said:

    FF43 said:

    RobD said:

    FF43 said:

    AndyJS said:

    Can someone please inform David Lammy that Alan Johnson has admitted the decision to destroy the landing cards was taken when he was Home Secretary.

    Commonwealth residents aren't being harassed because of missing landing cards.
    I thought they were UK citizens? In any case, the lack of them certainly didn’t help.
    The purpose of Theresa May's Hostile Immigration Environment was to make them non-residents. You are only a UK citizen if you can prove you are. Upto then they didn't need to prove it.
    Hostile immigration was first quoted by a labour home secretary in Blair years
    Yes but for god's sake , when a party has been in power 8 years , get a grip, sort it out,and take some responsibility.
    Do remind me how long Labour were doing the same re Thatcher?
    FFS get a life.
    I'm on PB. You know full well that is not possible. :p
  • Options
    Yorkcity said:


    AndyJS said:

    Can someone please inform David Lammy that Alan Johnson has admitted the decision to destroy the landing cards was taken when he was Home Secretary.

    To assist

    Latest on Windrush: Alan Johnson says landing cards decision was made in 2009

    Alan Johnson: "It was an administrative decision taken by the UK Border Agency"
    The decision to destroy the landing cards for Windrush migrants was taken under Labour, former home secretary Alan Johnson has said.

    Asked if he knew about the 2009 decision, he told the BBC: "No, it was an administrative decision taken by the UK Border Agency."

    The cards were then destroyed in 2010, when Theresa May was home secretary.

    Labour Leader Jeremy Corbyn and Mrs May clashed over the issue at prime minister's questions.

    On Wednesday, Mr Corbyn accused the government of being "callous and incompetent" and asked if Mrs May, then home secretary, had "signed off" on the decision to destroy the landing cards which was now "causing such pain and such stress to a whole generation" of Windrush migrants.

    She replied that the decision had been taken under the previous Labour government in 2009.

    Mr Johnson suggested that Mr Corbyn had been "misled" over the issue: "The previous evening, as I understand it... Number 10 were briefing that this happened in 2010.

    "What she had up her sleeve, whether it was deliberate or whatever - all's fair in love and Prime Minister's Questions - was that the decision was taken under us."


    Politics Hey
    Pathetic really , action only seems to happen , when the Daily Mail gets upset.The same happened over Stephen Lawrence , when the Daily Mail to its credit had the headline MURDERERS.

    With Windrush where was the Home Offices moral compass?
    Windrush was to put it crudely a cock up and should not have happened. However Sky have reported that those on the help line have already expressed delight that they have now had their status confirmed, one from 10 years ago, the other from 1998.

    This has been going on under successive governments and speaks more about the hopelessness of the Home Office as a bureaucratic institution.

    If there is good to come out of this the Windrush scandal will be resolved and with compensation but lessons must be learned.

    It is noticeable that the BBC, Sky and the Guardian have all appealing for victims to tell them their stories but there seems to be a reduction in reporting which again indicates the issue is being addressed. I would think Amber Rudd is on this 24/7 as her career depends on it. Amazing that Corbyn's incompetence likely saved Rudd her job
  • Options
    TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 41,245
    DavidL said:

    RobD said:

    DavidL said:

    RobD said:

    FF43 said:

    RobD said:

    FF43 said:

    AndyJS said:

    Can someone please inform David Lammy that Alan Johnson has admitted the decision to destroy the landing cards was taken when he was Home Secretary.

    Commonwealth residents aren't being harassed because of missing landing cards.
    I thought they were UK citizens? In any case, the lack of them certainly didn’t help.
    The purpose of Theresa May's Hostile Immigration Environment was to make them non-residents. You are only a UK citizen if you can prove you are. Upto then they didn't need to prove it.
    Wasn’t the purpose to find people who are in the UK illegally? Not sure there’s anything wrong with that in principle. And correct me if I’m wrong, but didn’t this come about because some were applying for passports. I think everyone has to prove they are citizens for that.
    This has arisen because their lack of documentation and the hostile environment introduced or at least significantly extended by the Immigration Act 2016 means that it is much more difficult now for them to rent a house, open a bank account, get a driving licence, get employment, qualify for benefits etc. A landlord, bank or employer who took or kept them on would be taking a considerable risk and in several cases they have (understandably, given the way £10k fines are handed out) chosen not to do so.
    I generally don't have sympathy for people that can't maintain good records. I've been careful to ensure I was able to prove residency/rights in the various countries I have lived in. It isn't all that difficult, and I remember there being some skepticism about this story when it was first posted here because of how incredible the idea was of being in a country for 30+ years without being able to demonstrate that convincingly.
    I think that is completely unfair. When these particular people came their parents had UK passports and they were entitled to come. What, exactly, did you expect the children who were on those passports to do? More generally, you sound very organised. My experience is that many people are not and it is frankly cruel to punish them for that. We really should be better than this.
    As Mr Meeks and Mr Nelson have pointed out, the govt can be forgiven for drawing a conclusion from the electorate in June 2016 that a hostile environment, which is necessarily messy around the edges, is precisely what the country wanted.
  • Options
    DavidLDavidL Posts: 51,130
    Yorkcity said:


    AndyJS said:

    Can someone please inform David Lammy that Alan Johnson has admitted the decision to destroy the landing cards was taken when he was Home Secretary.

    To assist

    Latest on Windrush: Alan Johnson says landing cards decision was made in 2009

    Alan Johnson: "It was an administrative decision taken by the UK Border Agency"
    The decision to destroy the landing cards for Windrush migrants was taken under Labour, former home secretary Alan Johnson has said.

    Asked if he knew about the 2009 decision, he told the BBC: "No, it was an administrative decision taken by the UK Border Agency."

    The cards were then destroyed in 2010, when Theresa May was home secretary.

    Labour Leader Jeremy Corbyn and Mrs May clashed over the issue at prime minister's questions.

    On Wednesday, Mr Corbyn accused the government of being "callous and incompetent" and asked if Mrs May, then home secretary, had "signed off" on the decision to destroy the landing cards which was now "causing such pain and such stress to a whole generation" of Windrush migrants.

    She replied that the decision had been taken under the previous Labour government in 2009.

    Mr Johnson suggested that Mr Corbyn had been "misled" over the issue: "The previous evening, as I understand it... Number 10 were briefing that this happened in 2010.

    "What she had up her sleeve, whether it was deliberate or whatever - all's fair in love and Prime Minister's Questions - was that the decision was taken under us."


    Politics Hey
    Pathetic really , action only seems to happen , when the Daily Mail gets upset.The same happened over Stephen Lawrence , when the Daily Mail to its credit had the headline MURDERERS.

    With Windrush where was the Home Offices moral compass?
    WIndrush is really just an emotive example and the destruction of these landing cards is a distraction. The issue is much, much broader than that. I am concerned that we might be presented with a specific exemption dealing with one small subgroup without addressing the bigger picture.
  • Options
    FF43 said:

    FF43 said:

    RobD said:

    FF43 said:

    AndyJS said:

    Can someone please inform David Lammy that Alan Johnson has admitted the decision to destroy the landing cards was taken when he was Home Secretary.

    Commonwealth residents aren't being harassed because of missing landing cards.
    I thought they were UK citizens? In any case, the lack of them certainly didn’t help.
    The purpose of Theresa May's Hostile Immigration Environment was to make them non-residents. You are only a UK citizen if you can prove you are. Upto then they didn't need to prove it.
    Hostile immigration was first quoted by a labour home secretary in Blair years
    Indeed, but Theresa May took the policy to a much higher level. The Windrush scandal happened as a result of her policy, not Blair's.
    So tell me how you would expel illegal immigrants
  • Options
    rural_voterrural_voter Posts: 2,038
    DavidL said:

    AndyJS said:

    "Former Home Secretary Alan Johnson has said the destruction of Windrush landing cards was "an administrative decision" taken while he was Home Secretary in 2009."

    https://www.politicshome.com/news/uk/political-parties/labour-party/news/94529/watch-alan-johnson-says-windrush-landing-cards

    It sounds like a repeat of past excuses

    'The previous government made the decision.'
    'I only make policy; they decide operational matters.'

    Lord Carrington resigned from the F.Office as a matter of honour when the Falklands were invaded. That's the way to do it.

    Using the Carrington code of honour, Johnson was arguably responsible for the decision and May was responsible for its execution ... or for reconsidering it, given that destroying the last copy of something is a pretty major matter.

    Income tax records aren't destroyed for 100 years are they? Now they're digital, the Revenue probably has people responsible for transferring the scanned images to new storage media at regular intervals. I fail to see why immigration records aren't as important.

    It's a grand, all-party cockup.
    Well, except for the fact that if there had not been changes of policy after the destruction of the landing cards which involved pursuing long term but not adequately documented residents none of it would have mattered.

    A counsel of perfection might be that before the Government puts extremely onerous obligations on people to document themselves they might reflect on what documentation they have themselves and what they might have had but for prior decisions (of whatever government). Going even further into my fantasy such a hypothetical minister might reflect whether it is terribly fair to ask people to produce records from a time when the government itself has got rid of them.
    Me being too even-handed? OK, happy to bash the Tories a bit ...

    But can a lawyer tell us why most civil offences have a 6 year time limit but one can be pursued for a breach of immigration law after 60? People who've lived here without objection for 6 years or so should be allowed to stay indefinitely, although they might have to prove it to a tribunal.
  • Options
    FF43 said:

    RobD said:

    DavidL said:

    RobD said:

    FF43 said:

    RobD said:

    FF43 said:

    AndyJS said:

    Can someone please inform David Lammy that Alan Johnson has admitted the decision to destroy the landing cards was taken when he was Home Secretary.

    Commonwealth residents aren't being harassed because of missing landing cards.
    I thought they were UK citizens? In any case, the lack of them certainly didn’t help.
    The purpose of Theresa May's Hostile Immigration Environment was to make them non-residents. You are only a UK citizen if you can prove you are. Upto then they didn't need to prove it.
    Wasn’t the purpose to find people who are in the UK illegally? Not sure there’s anything wrong with that in principle. And correct me if I’m wrong, but didn’t this come about because some were applying for passports. I think everyone has to prove they are citizens for that.
    This has arisen because their lack of documentation and the hostile environment introduced or at least significantly extended by the Immigration Act 2016 means that it is much more difficult now for them to rent a house, open a bank account, get a driving licence, get employment, qualify for benefits etc. A landlord, bank or employer who took or kept them on would be taking a considerable risk and in several cases they have (understandably, given the way £10k fines are handed out) chosen not to do so.
    I generally don't have sympathy for people that can't maintain good records. I've been careful to ensure I was able to prove residency/rights in the various countries I have lived in. It isn't all that difficult, and I remember there being some skepticism about this story when it was first posted here because of how incredible the idea was of being in a country for 30+ years without being able to demonstrate that convincingly.
    No doubt Theresa May thinks the same. Nevertheless that lack of sympathy has led directly to people not receiving critical cancer treatment and older people who have made their entire lives in this country being threatened with exile to countries they don't know. Someone with more empathy would say, there's something wrong with that.

    It's not even a difficult problem to deal with - you could allow anyone who has lived in this country for a decade or so to stay. In fact that used to be the case before it too was abolished by Theresa May
    That with respect is idiotic. So anyone can slip illegally into the Country and after 10 years thats fine
  • Options
    DavidLDavidL Posts: 51,130
    TOPPING said:

    DavidL said:

    RobD said:

    DavidL said:

    RobD said:

    FF43 said:

    RobD said:

    FF43 said:

    AndyJS said:

    This has arisen because their lack of documentation and the hostile environment introduced or at least significantly extended by the Immigration Act 2016 means that it is much more difficult now for them to rent a house, open a bank account, get a driving licence, get employment, qualify for benefits etc. A landlord, bank or employer who took or kept them on would be taking a considerable risk and in several cases they have (understandably, given the way £10k fines are handed out) chosen not to do so.
    I generally don't have sympathy for people that can't maintain good records. I've been careful to ensure I was able to prove residency/rights in the various countries I have lived in. It isn't all that difficult, and I remember there being some skepticism about this story when it was first posted here because of how incredible the idea was of being in a country for 30+ years without being able to demonstrate that convincingly.
    I think that is completely unfair. When these particular people came their parents had UK passports and they were entitled to come. What, exactly, did you expect the children who were on those passports to do? More generally, you sound very organised. My experience is that many people are not and it is frankly cruel to punish them for that. We really should be better than this.
    As Mr Meeks and Mr Nelson have pointed out, the govt can be forgiven for drawing a conclusion from the electorate in June 2016 that a hostile environment, which is necessarily messy around the edges, is precisely what the country wanted.
    I have no problem with a rigorous and enforced immigration policy. My concern is that the legacy we have in this area makes that impossible and cruelty towards soft targets and indifference to the consequences for many are not acceptable alternatives to a viable policy. Sort out the legacy, get rid of the backlog and then get a grip, that's what I would do.
  • Options
    Stark_DawningStark_Dawning Posts: 9,291

    FF43 said:

    RobD said:

    DavidL said:

    RobD said:

    FF43 said:

    RobD said:

    FF43 said:

    AndyJS said:

    Can someone please inform David Lammy that Alan Johnson has admitted the decision to destroy the landing cards was taken when he was Home Secretary.

    Commonwealth residents aren't being harassed because of missing landing cards.
    I thought they were UK citizens? In any case, the lack of them certainly didn’t help.
    The purpose of Theresa May's Hostile Immigration Environment was to make them non-residents. You are only a UK citizen if you can prove you are. Upto then they didn't need to prove it.
    Wasn’t the purpose to find people who are in the UK illegally? Not sure there’s anything wrong with that in principle. And correct me if I’m wrong, but didn’t this come about because some were applying for passports. I think everyone has to prove they are citizens for that.
    This has arisen because their lack of documentation and the hostile environment introduced or at least significantly extended by the Immigration Act 2016 means that it is much more difficult now for them to rent a house, open a bank account, get a driving licence, get employment, qualify for benefits etc. A landlord, bank or employer who took or kept them on would be taking a considerable risk and in several cases they have (understandably, given the way £10k fines are handed out) chosen not to do so.
    I generally don't have sympathy for people that can't maintain good records. I've been careful to ensure I was able to prove residency/rights in the various countries I have lived in. It isn't all that difficult, and I remember there being some skepticism about this story when it was first posted here because of how incredible the idea was of being in a country for 30+ years without being able to demonstrate that convincingly.
    No doubt Theresa May thinks the same. Nevertheless that lack of sympathy has led directly to people not receiving critical cancer treatment and older people who have made their entire lives in this country being threatened with exile to countries they don't know. Someone with more empathy would say, there's something wrong with that.

    It's not even a difficult problem to deal with - you could allow anyone who has lived in this country for a decade or so to stay. In fact that used to be the case before it too was abolished by Theresa May
    That with respect is idiotic. So anyone can slip illegally into the Country and after 10 years thats fine
    Boris proposed an illegal-immigrant amnesty when he was Major of London.
  • Options
    Scott_P said:
    Well that will be a lifetime of litigation.

    The Democrats need to accept Clinton was hopeless and get someone who can beat Trump
  • Options
    TheWhiteRabbitTheWhiteRabbit Posts: 12,387

    DavidL said:

    AndyJS said:

    "Former Home Secretary Alan Johnson has said the destruction of Windrush landing cards was "an administrative decision" taken while he was Home Secretary in 2009."

    https://www.politicshome.com/news/uk/political-parties/labour-party/news/94529/watch-alan-johnson-says-windrush-landing-cards

    It sounds like a repeat of past excuses

    'The previous government made the decision.'
    'I only make policy; they decide operational matters.'

    Lord Carrington resigned from the F.Office as a matter of honour when the Falklands were invaded. That's the way to do it.

    Using the Carrington code of honour, Johnson was arguably responsible for the decision and May was responsible for its execution ... or for reconsidering it, given that destroying the last copy of something is a pretty major matter.

    Income tax records aren't destroyed for 100 years are they? Now they're digital, the Revenue probably has people responsible for transferring the scanned images to new storage media at regular intervals. I fail to see why immigration records aren't as important.

    It's a grand, all-party cockup.
    Well, except for the fact that if there had not been changes of policy after the destruction of the landing cards which involved pursuing long term but not adequately documented residents none of it would have mattered.

    A counsel of perfection might be that before the Government puts extremely onerous obligations on people to document themselves they might reflect on what documentation they have themselves and what they might have had but for prior decisions (of whatever government). Going even further into my fantasy such a hypothetical minister might reflect whether it is terribly fair to ask people to produce records from a time when the government itself has got rid of them.
    Me being too even-handed? OK, happy to bash the Tories a bit ...

    But can a lawyer tell us why most civil offences have a 6 year time limit but one can be pursued for a breach of immigration law after 60? People who've lived here without objection for 6 years or so should be allowed to stay indefinitely, although they might have to prove it to a tribunal.
    In short because your continuing status as an illegal immigrant, well, continues. It is not the fact or your coming to the country illegally, it is the fact of your being here. Such status offences are quite a new thing
  • Options
    rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 53,921
    Scott_P said:
    I think this is a very foolish move. Fortunately for the Democrats, I suspect that it will be thrown out by the first judge who sees it.
  • Options
    TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 41,245
    DavidL said:

    TOPPING said:

    DavidL said:

    RobD said:

    DavidL said:

    RobD said:

    FF43 said:

    RobD said:

    FF43 said:

    AndyJS said:

    This has arisen because their lack of documentation and the hostile environment introduced or at least significantly extended by the Immigration Act 2016 means that it is much more difficult now for them to rent a house, open a bank account, get a driving licence, get employment, qualify for benefits etc. A landlord, bank or employer who took or kept them on would be taking a considerable risk and in several cases they have (understandably, given the way £10k fines are handed out) chosen not to do so.
    I generally don't have sympathy for people that can't maintain good records. I've been careful to ensure I was able to prove residency/rights in the various countries I have lived in. It isn't all that difficult, and I remember there being some skepticism about this story when it was first posted here because of how incredible the idea was of being in a country for 30+ years without being able to demonstrate that convincingly.
    I think that is completely unfair. When these particular people came their parents had UK passports and they were entitled to come. What, exactly, did you expect the children who were on those passports to do? More generally, you sound very organised. My experience is that many people are not and it is frankly cruel to punish them for that. We really should be better than this.
    As Mr Meeks and Mr Nelson have pointed out, the govt can be forgiven for drawing a conclusion from the electorate in June 2016 that a hostile environment, which is necessarily messy around the edges, is precisely what the country wanted.
    I have no problem with a rigorous and enforced immigration policy. My concern is that the legacy we have in this area makes that impossible and cruelty towards soft targets and indifference to the consequences for many are not acceptable alternatives to a viable policy. Sort out the legacy, get rid of the backlog and then get a grip, that's what I would do.
    If the country goes down the omelette path then I don't think it makes sense to complain about the eggs getting broken. A rigorous and enforced immigration policy is designed precisely to make it difficult to prove settled status (amongst other things, I imagine). Like Emily Thornberry on AQ last night, you seem to want a harsh immigration policy but somehow to execute it in a warm, fuzzy way. I don't see how this can happen.
  • Options
    DavidLDavidL Posts: 51,130

    DavidL said:

    AndyJS said:

    "Former Home Secretary Alan Johnson has said the destruction of Windrush landing cards was "an administrative decision" taken while he was Home Secretary in 2009."

    https://www.politicshome.com/news/uk/political-parties/labour-party/news/94529/watch-alan-johnson-says-windrush-landing-cards

    It sounds like a repeat of past excuses

    'The previous government made the decision.'
    'I only make policy; they decide operational matters.'

    Lord Carrington resigned from the F.Office as a matter of honour when the Falklands were invaded. That's the way to do it.

    Using the Carrington code of honour, Johnson was arguably responsible for the decision and May was responsible for its execution ... or for reconsidering it, given that destroying the last copy of something is a pretty major matter.

    Income tax records aren't destroyed for 100 years are they? Now they're digital, the Revenue probably has people responsible for transferring the scanned images to new storage media at regular intervals. I fail to see why immigration records aren't as important.

    It's a grand, all-party cockup.
    Well, except for the fact that if there had not been changes of policy after the destruction of the landing cards which involved pursuing long term but not adequately documented residents none of it would have mattered.

    A counsel of perfection might be that before the Government puts extremely onerous obligations on people to document themselves they might reflect on what documentation they have themselves and what they might have had but for prior decisions (of whatever government). Going even further into my fantasy such a hypothetical minister might reflect whether it is terribly fair to ask people to produce records from a time when the government itself has got rid of them.
    Me being too even-handed? OK, happy to bash the Tories a bit ...

    But can a lawyer tell us why most civil offences have a 6 year time limit but one can be pursued for a breach of immigration law after 60? People who've lived here without objection for 6 years or so should be allowed to stay indefinitely, although they might have to prove it to a tribunal.
    Its a question of status. If you are married, you stay married until death or divorce. Time does not come into it. If you are an illegal immigrant you remain so until your status is regularised. It is still possible to apply for indefinite leave to remain after 10 years: https://www.gov.uk/long-residence
    And it is then possible to apply for citizenship.

    But it has got much more difficult. Any gaps of documentation are seized upon and there is an aggressive attitude of disbelief. Making the application is hazardous. You risk expulsion. Some prefer to stay under the radar.
  • Options
    FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 76,274
    I thought the french under macron we’re trying to cut pointless regulations and red tape...


    Vegetable-based products such as soya steaks or vegetarian sausages marketed as meat substitutes are to be banned in France for "misleading" consumers.

    Food producers will no longer be able to use "steak", "sausage" or any other meat term to describe products that are not partly or wholly made up of meat.

    The measure will also apply to vegetarian or vegan products marketed as dairy alternatives.
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    rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 53,921

    That with respect is idiotic. So anyone can slip illegally into the Country and after 10 years thats fine

    Illegal immigration amnesties encourage illegal immigration. But there is a balance to be struck. If you've been an otherwise law abiding citizen for two decades, perhaps with children who've gone through the UK education system, then there should be some latitude. I just don't know exactly where.

    In Geneva in Switzerland, when they changed the law to be more focused on the enablers of illegal immigration (employers and landlords), they combined it with an amnesty programme. If you'd been in the country for a decade, without having run afoul of the law, then you could get a work permit, renewable annually (so long as you also abided by the rules on health insurance, etc.)
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    YorkcityYorkcity Posts: 4,382
    DavidL said:

    Yorkcity said:


    AndyJS said:

    Can someone please inform David Lammy that Alan Johnson has admitted the decision to destroy the landing cards was taken when he was Home Secretary.

    To assist

    Latest on Windrush: Alan Johnson says landing cards decision was made in 2009

    Alan Johnson: "It was an administrative decision taken by the UK Border Agency"
    The decision to destroy the landing cards for Windrush migrants was taken under Labour, former home secretary Alan Johnson has said.

    Asked if he knew about the 2009 decision, he told the BBC: "No, it was an administrative decision taken by the UK Border Agency."

    The cards were then destroyed in 2010, when Theresa May was home secretary.

    Labour Leader Jeremy Corbyn and Mrs May clashed over the issue at prime minister's questions.

    On Wednesday, Mr Corbyn accused the government of being "callous and incompetent" and asked if Mrs May, then home secretary, had "signed off" on the decision to destroy the landing cards which was now "causing such pain and such stress to a whole generation" of Windrush migrants.

    She replied that the decision had been taken under the previous Labour government in 2009.

    Mr Johnson suggested that Mr Corbyn had been "misled" over the issue: "The previous evening, as I understand it... Number 10 were briefing that this happened in 2010.

    "What she had up her sleeve, whether it was deliberate or whatever - all's fair in love and Prime Minister's Questions - was that the decision was taken under us."


    Politics Hey
    Pathetic really , action only seems to happen , when the Daily Mail gets upset.The same happened over Stephen Lawrence , when the Daily Mail to its credit had the headline MURDERERS.

    With Windrush where was the Home Offices moral compass?
    WIndrush is really just an emotive example and the destruction of these landing cards is a distraction. The issue is much, much broader than that. I am concerned that we might be presented with a specific exemption dealing with one small subgroup without addressing the bigger picture.
    Very possibly David , when I worked for the Police , all foreign students , apart from the Commenwealth, the EU , Japan and USA , had to register in person with the Police.

    At a managementt meeting with the Home Office and Border Staff, I asked why the Police were doing all this administration.As the list of countries having to register , and those that did not made no sense.

    For example , Pakistan did not have to register , Brazil did.

    I was told it was to political to change it.

    So in these times of police cuts , we were wasting our resources on a pointless exercise.As we never had the time to check addresses etc of the foreign students.

    I even wrote to the Home Office many years ago, never got a reply.
  • Options
    rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 53,921
    By the way, has anyone mentioned the Quinnepac Texas poll, with the Democrat running just 3% behind Ted Cruz. (A consequence, I suspect, of Ted Cruz having terrible favourability numbers in Texas.)
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    DavidLDavidL Posts: 51,130
    TOPPING said:

    DavidL said:

    TOPPING said:

    DavidL said:

    RobD said:

    DavidL said:

    RobD said:

    FF43 said:

    RobD said:

    FF43 said:

    AndyJS said:

    .
    .
    I think that is completely unfair. When these particular people came their parents had UK passports and they were entitled to come. What, exactly, did you expect the children who were on those passports to do? More generally, you sound very organised. My experience is that many people are not and it is frankly cruel to punish them for that. We really should be better than this.
    As Mr Meeks and Mr Nelson have pointed out, the govt can be forgiven for drawing a conclusion from the electorate in June 2016 that a hostile environment, which is necessarily messy around the edges, is precisely what the country wanted.
    I have no problem with a rigorous and enforced immigration policy. My concern is that the legacy we have in this area makes that impossible and cruelty towards soft targets and indifference to the consequences for many are not acceptable alternatives to a viable policy. Sort out the legacy, get rid of the backlog and then get a grip, that's what I would do.
    If the country goes down the omelette path then I don't think it makes sense to complain about the eggs getting broken. A rigorous and enforced immigration policy is designed precisely to make it difficult to prove settled status (amongst other things, I imagine). Like Emily Thornberry on AQ last night, you seem to want a harsh immigration policy but somehow to execute it in a warm, fuzzy way. I don't see how this can happen.
    At the moment the whole system is clogged up with appeals, historic cases, frankly barmy decisions by both the HO and some First Tier immigration judges and the sheer numbers of those involved. People being threatened with expulsion disappear and make fresh applications once they have kids etc. The resources available simply mean that the system is reactive, slow and incompetent.

    My solution, which is hardly original, is to take at least half a million people out of the system by allowing them to apply for and get an amnesty on much easier terms and with a less critical look at the documentation than we have now. The resources can then be focussed on the newer cases so they can be processed and acted upon before life gets too complicated. I don't see anything warm or fuzzy about that. I see practicality.
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    Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 60,969
    Mr. Dawning, Boris saying something damned stupid is not news (I do remember him saying that. Man's a jester).
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    NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 21,321
    DavidL said:

    RobD said:



    I generally don't have sympathy for people that can't maintain good records. I've been careful to ensure I was able to prove residency/rights in the various countries I have lived in. It isn't all that difficult, and I remember there being some skepticism about this story when it was first posted here because of how incredible the idea was of being in a country for 30+ years without being able to demonstrate that convincingly.

    I think that is completely unfair. When these particular people came their parents had UK passports and they were entitled to come. What, exactly, did you expect the children who were on those passports to do? More generally, you sound very organised. My experience is that many people are not and it is frankly cruel to punish them for that. We really should be better than this.
    Yes, it's ridiculous to punish people selectively according to whether as children they kept records or not. It's nice for RobD that he's well-organised, but entirely unreasonable to make Britain only secure for people who are equally disciplined.
  • Options
    FF43FF43 Posts: 15,692

    FF43 said:


    No doubt Theresa May thinks the same. Nevertheless that lack of sympathy has led directly to people not receiving critical cancer treatment and older people who have made their entire lives in this country being threatened with exile to countries they don't know. Someone with more empathy would say, there's something wrong with that.

    It's not even a difficult problem to deal with - you could allow anyone who has lived in this country for a decade or so to stay. In fact that used to be the case before it too was abolished by Theresa May

    That with respect is idiotic. So anyone can slip illegally into the Country and after 10 years thats fine
    You could set the cutoff at 25 years. It's arbitrary. My point is that it should be irrelevant whether Commonwealth origin citizens came here legally or not. After a time they ARE citizens in the real if not necessarily legal sense. In this case the previous assumption was that they were here legally and Mrs May turned that assumption around.
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    RecidivistRecidivist Posts: 4,679

    A terrrrrrrible night for the Conservatives. In England, anyway.

    The Warrington Greens must be wondering why they bothered.

    Remind me, don't you need 12 nominees to stand for a local council?
  • Options
    rcs1000 said:

    That with respect is idiotic. So anyone can slip illegally into the Country and after 10 years thats fine

    Illegal immigration amnesties encourage illegal immigration. But there is a balance to be struck. If you've been an otherwise law abiding citizen for two decades, perhaps with children who've gone through the UK education system, then there should be some latitude. I just don't know exactly where.

    In Geneva in Switzerland, when they changed the law to be more focused on the enablers of illegal immigration (employers and landlords), they combined it with an amnesty programme. If you'd been in the country for a decade, without having run afoul of the law, then you could get a work permit, renewable annually (so long as you also abided by the rules on health insurance, etc.)
    Seems sensible
  • Options
    TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 41,245
    DavidL said:

    TOPPING said:

    DavidL said:

    TOPPING said:

    DavidL said:

    RobD said:

    DavidL said:

    RobD said:

    FF43 said:

    RobD said:

    FF43 said:

    AndyJS said:

    .
    .
    I think that is completely unfair. When these particular people came their parents had UK passports and they were entitled to come. What experience is that many people are not and it is frankly cruel to punish them for that. We really should be better than this.
    As Mr Meeks and Mr Nelson have pointed out, the govt can be forgiven for drawing a conclusion from the electorate in June 2016 that a hostile environment, which is necessarily messy around the edges, is precisely what the country wanted.
    I have no problem with a rigorous and enforced immigration policy. My concern is that the legacy we have in this area makes that impossible and cruelty towards soft targets and indifference to the consequences for many are not acceptable alternatives to a viable policy. Sort out the legacy, get rid of the backlog and then get a grip, that's what I would do.
    If the country goes down the omelette path then I don't think it makes sense to complain about the eggs getting broken. A rigorous and enforced immigration policy is designed precisely to make it difficult to prove settled status (amongst other things, I imagine). Like Emily Thornberry on AQ last night, you seem to want a harsh immigration policy but somehow to execute it in a warm, fuzzy way. I don't see how this can happen.
    At the moment the whole system is clogged up with appeals, historic cases, frankly barmy decisions by both the HO and some First Tier immigration judges and the sheer numbers of those involved. People being threatened with expulsion disappear and make fresh applications once they have kids etc. The resources available simply mean that the system is reactive, slow and incompetent.

    My solution, which is hardly original, is to take at least half a million people out of the system by allowing them to apply for and get an amnesty on much easier terms and with a less critical look at the documentation than we have now. The resources can then be focussed on the newer cases so they can be processed and acted upon before life gets too complicated. I don't see anything warm or fuzzy about that. I see practicality.
    IANAHMRCL so I have no idea whether that is doable or not. It doesn’t immediately strike me as harsh and effective (presumably at keeping illegal immigrants out). When will the next amnesty be?
  • Options
    Ishmael_ZIshmael_Z Posts: 8,981



    That with respect is idiotic. So anyone can slip illegally into the Country and after 10 years thats fine

    It's not a million miles from gaining title to land by 12 years of adverse possession - "squatter's rights" - nor from getting away with planning law breaches more than 4 years old.
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    Strange since all the media reporting it as a done deal
  • Options
    FF43FF43 Posts: 15,692
    DavidL said:

    Its a question of status. If you are married, you stay married until death or divorce. Time does not come into it. If you are an illegal immigrant you remain so until your status is regularised. It is still possible to apply for indefinite leave to remain after 10 years: https://www.gov.uk/long-residence
    And it is then possible to apply for citizenship.

    But it has got much more difficult. Any gaps of documentation are seized upon and there is an aggressive attitude of disbelief. Making the application is hazardous. You risk expulsion. Some prefer to stay under the radar.

    To be clear the ten year qualification is for people who have been on the visa regime continuously for ten years. There used to be a way of applying for ILR (after fifteen years?) for anyone who hasn't been to prison, but that was recently abolished.
  • Options
    Pro_RataPro_Rata Posts: 4,801
    RobD said:

    DavidL said:

    RobD said:

    FF43 said:

    RobD said:

    FF43 said:

    AndyJS said:

    Alan Johnson has admitted the decision to destroy the landing cards was taken when he was Home Secretary.

    Commonwealth residents aren't being harassed because of missing landing cards.
    I thought they were UK citizens? In any case, the lack of them certainly didn’t help.
    The purpose of Theresa May's Hostile Immigration Environment was to make them non-residents
    Wasn’t the purpose to find people who are in the UK illegally? And correct me if I’m wrong, but didn’t this come about because some were applying for passports. I think everyone has to prove they are citizens for that.
    This has arisen because their lack of documentation and the hostile environment introduced or at least significantly extended by the Immigration Act 2016 means that it is much more difficult now for them to rent a house, open a bank account, get a driving licence, get employment, qualify for benefits etc.
    I generally don't have sympathy for people that can't maintain good records. I've been careful to ensure I was able to prove residency/rights in the various countries I have lived in. It isn't all that difficult, and I remember there being some skepticism about this story when it was first posted here because of how incredible the idea was of being in a country for 30+ years without being able to demonstrate that convincingly.
    I too would cannot imagine not maintaining the proper residency rights for myself and family when going to a new country in this day and age.

    But this was a different era, they were waved in the door as children with the requirements of the time, and perhaps did not think any more of it until it was too late to get the documents from older family members. I don't see it as just being applicable to Windrush afro-carribeans either, this surely could also apply to South Asians and perhaps even colonial born abroad returnees from the same era. (not that my thinking would ever be 'it's just foreigners' but to consider that people who consider themselves white British and nothing else might be affected is food for thought).

    Mum Rata was born abroad of British parents, had a fairly complicated upbringing of remarriages, adoptions, name changes, country changes and a trail of poor certificate copies, and only regularised herself with passports in the early 2000s, a process that took well on for 2 years for her to complete.

    If she had not seen it through then, had one of my father's episodes been worse, I cannot be sure at all that my white British parent would not have been in the cross hairs of the home office.

  • Options
    FF43FF43 Posts: 15,692

    FF43 said:

    FF43 said:

    RobD said:

    FF43 said:

    AndyJS said:

    Can someone please inform David Lammy that Alan Johnson has admitted the decision to destroy the landing cards was taken when he was Home Secretary.

    Commonwealth residents aren't being harassed because of missing landing cards.
    I thought they were UK citizens? In any case, the lack of them certainly didn’t help.
    The purpose of Theresa May's Hostile Immigration Environment was to make them non-residents. You are only a UK citizen if you can prove you are. Upto then they didn't need to prove it.
    Hostile immigration was first quoted by a labour home secretary in Blair years
    Indeed, but Theresa May took the policy to a much higher level. The Windrush scandal happened as a result of her policy, not Blair's.
    So tell me how you would expel illegal immigrants
    This is not primarily about expelling illegal immigrants. It's about making it difficult, expensive and unpleasant to prove that you have a right to be here.
  • Options
    OmniumOmnium Posts: 9,748

    Strange since all the media reporting it as a done deal
    It is odd.

    When Charles becomes King though I suspect he'll be sufficiently worried about keeping the UK onside. I hope his advisors are suggesting that he basically does nothing in a sustained way. Somehow he's got into a position where he'll be the unwanted King - I've never met anyone who claims to be a fan of his. I'm pretty sure this is dreadfully unfair on him. He may well be better at the Kinging lark than his mother for example. She though has the benefit of simply shaping our expectations to simply be what she does.
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    rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 53,921
    The Singaporean Prime Minister has been reading my posts on the causes of trade deficits:

    Furthermore, the cause of a country’s trade deficit lies at home. A trade deficit is the result of a country consuming more than it produces, and it is neither caused nor cured by trade restrictions.

    https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/singapores-prime-minister-nobody-wants-a-trade-war/2018/04/18/64d9fa30-431e-11e8-ad8f-27a8c409298b_story.html?utm_term=.1fcde6c3c365
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    Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 60,969
    Mr. Omnium, tricky for a long term heir as the monarch can perform the duties and keep her views in reserve. Royal duties do exist for the heir, of course, but to keep your views private whilst you're waiting the main duty is difficult.

    That said, I don't disagree with you.
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    sladeslade Posts: 1,929

    A terrrrrrrible night for the Conservatives. In England, anyway.

    The Warrington Greens must be wondering why they bothered.

    Remind me, don't you need 12 nominees to stand for a local council?
    A proposer, a seconder and 8 assentors. Only 2 needed for town/parish elections.
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    JackWJackW Posts: 14,787

    Strange since all the media reporting it as a done deal
    I'd venture to suggest that :

    55. When Liz Windsor pops her clogs that Chuck gets the gig.

    might have been considered a tad insensitive.
  • Options
    Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 55,267

    Strange since all the media reporting it as a done deal
    As soon as I read that I was suspicious of it.

    The media really are poor.
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    RogerRoger Posts: 18,891
    "Do you approve/disapprove of Corbyn's performance"

    The more you delve into Mrs May's past at the Home Office the murkier it gets. The problem with Corbyn's performance is that he's given her a free ride. All this sackcloth and ashes stuff over Labour's anti-Semitism-which was never going to fly because people didn't buy it-was a monumental mistake. Mrs May who should now be on the verge of committing hara-kiri looks like she could get away with it
  • Options
    Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 55,267

    Strange since all the media reporting it as a done deal
    As soon as I read that I was suspicious of it.

    The media really are poor.
    Although, Sky news announced several hours they confirmed Charles.

    And I see the BBC are now saying the same.
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    OmniumOmnium Posts: 9,748

    Mr. Omnium, tricky for a long term heir as the monarch can perform the duties and keep her views in reserve. Royal duties do exist for the heir, of course, but to keep your views private whilst you're waiting the main duty is difficult.

    That said, I don't disagree with you.

    The great thing he has going for him is that we'll all wish him well when he begins his Reign.

    I'd like it if we could find something pretty substantial to recognise the Queen's achievements. I'd suggest we immediately develop a space colony and call it Elizabeth (Underground lines aren't quite up to it).

    I'm very far from being a monarchist though.
  • Options
    Ishmael_ZIshmael_Z Posts: 8,981

    Strange since all the media reporting it as a done deal
    As soon as I read that I was suspicious of it.

    The media really are poor.
    if I were a Commonwealth Head of State I'd be mightily pissed off with Her Maj trying to bulldoze the result by making a public plea about it. Then again I don't really understand the Commonwealth mindset; I also wouldn't come on a jaunt to London to thank the She Elephant Whose Milk Nourishes The World for stealing my country and enslaving my ancestors.
  • Options
    Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 55,267
    Ishmael_Z said:

    Strange since all the media reporting it as a done deal
    As soon as I read that I was suspicious of it.

    The media really are poor.
    if I were a Commonwealth Head of State I'd be mightily pissed off with Her Maj trying to bulldoze the result by making a public plea about it. Then again I don't really understand the Commonwealth mindset; I also wouldn't come on a jaunt to London to thank the She Elephant Whose Milk Nourishes The World for stealing my country and enslaving my ancestors.
    Wot?
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    Strong speech by TM at Commonwealth with another pledge to do everything to resolve the Windrush issues with compensation and apologises publicaly to the Commonwealth leaders

    She has announced Charles succeeds the Queen - so that is confirmed
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    rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 53,921
    For those backing Trump to survive, this is an interesting article.

    https://www.newyorker.com/news/news-desk/michael-cohen-and-the-end-stage-of-the-trump-presidency

    (I've laid lots of 2018 Trump exit, and a very small amount of 2019. I think laying at 10-1 on 2018 remains close to free money, but am increasingly nervous about 2019.)
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    53 Commonwealth Countries of 1.5 billion peoples puts the EU half billion as much less importance in the context of going global
  • Options
    rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 53,921

    53 Commonwealth Countries of 1.5 billion peoples puts the EU half billion as much less importance in the context of going global

    Although the two largest Commonwealth countries are nuclear armed adversaries, so I wouldn't overdo the Commonwealth as a cohesive block.
  • Options
    rcs1000 said:

    53 Commonwealth Countries of 1.5 billion peoples puts the EU half billion as much less importance in the context of going global

    Although the two largest Commonwealth countries are nuclear armed adversaries, so I wouldn't overdo the Commonwealth as a cohesive block.
    Agree but I would hardly concur the EU are a cohesive block either
  • Options
    rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 53,921

    rcs1000 said:

    53 Commonwealth Countries of 1.5 billion peoples puts the EU half billion as much less importance in the context of going global

    Although the two largest Commonwealth countries are nuclear armed adversaries, so I wouldn't overdo the Commonwealth as a cohesive block.
    Agree but I would hardly concur the EU are a cohesive block either
    Sure. But India and Pakistan actually hate each other in a way that - say - Germany and Greece do not.
  • Options
    JackWJackW Posts: 14,787

    Strong speech by TM at Commonwealth with another pledge to do everything to resolve the Windrush issues with compensation and apologises publicaly to the Commonwealth leaders

    She has announced Charles succeeds the Queen - so that is confirmed

    Huzzah for the hereditary principle .. :smile:
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    TheWhiteRabbitTheWhiteRabbit Posts: 12,387
    JackW said:

    Strong speech by TM at Commonwealth with another pledge to do everything to resolve the Windrush issues with compensation and apologises publicaly to the Commonwealth leaders

    She has announced Charles succeeds the Queen - so that is confirmed

    Huzzah for the hereditary principle .. :smile:
    Indeed also the hereditary principal
  • Options
    Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 55,267

    rcs1000 said:

    53 Commonwealth Countries of 1.5 billion peoples puts the EU half billion as much less importance in the context of going global

    Although the two largest Commonwealth countries are nuclear armed adversaries, so I wouldn't overdo the Commonwealth as a cohesive block.
    Agree but I would hardly concur the EU are a cohesive block either
    If the Commonwealth wants to be more serious it needs to meet as regularly as the European Council.

    I’d suggest twice yearly, not biannually.
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    TheWhiteRabbitTheWhiteRabbit Posts: 12,387

    rcs1000 said:

    53 Commonwealth Countries of 1.5 billion peoples puts the EU half billion as much less importance in the context of going global

    Although the two largest Commonwealth countries are nuclear armed adversaries, so I wouldn't overdo the Commonwealth as a cohesive block.
    Agree but I would hardly concur the EU are a cohesive block either
    If the Commonwealth wants to be more serious it needs to meet as regularly as the European Council.

    I’d suggest twice yearly, not biannually.
    Serious about doing what?

  • Options
    SquareRootSquareRoot Posts: 7,095

    DavidL said:

    RobD said:



    I generally don't have sympathy for people that can't maintain good records. I've been careful to ensure I was able to prove residency/rights in the various countries I have lived in. It isn't all that difficult, and I remember there being some skepticism about this story when it was first posted here because of how incredible the idea was of being in a country for 30+ years without being able to demonstrate that convincingly.

    I think that is completely unfair. When these particular people came their parents had UK passports and they were entitled to come. What, exactly, did you expect the children who were on those passports to do? More generally, you sound very organised. My experience is that many people are not and it is frankly cruel to punish them for that. We really should be better than this.
    Yes, it's ridiculous to punish people selectively according to whether as children they kept records or not. It's nice for RobD that he's well-organised, but entirely unreasonable to make Britain only secure for people who are equally disciplined.
    .. but your mate Gordon wanted "British jobs for British workers" That's very fair innit ;)
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    SandpitSandpit Posts: 49,845

    rcs1000 said:

    53 Commonwealth Countries of 1.5 billion peoples puts the EU half billion as much less importance in the context of going global

    Although the two largest Commonwealth countries are nuclear armed adversaries, so I wouldn't overdo the Commonwealth as a cohesive block.
    Agree but I would hardly concur the EU are a cohesive block either
    If the Commonwealth wants to be more serious it needs to meet as regularly as the European Council.

    I’d suggest twice yearly, not biannually.
    Forgive my pedantry, but if it’s twice a year it is biannually.
This discussion has been closed.