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politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » Early voting from the Arizona 8th special election suggests su

SystemSystem Posts: 11,006
edited April 2018 in General

imagepoliticalbetting.com » Blog Archive » Early voting from the Arizona 8th special election suggests suggest this won’t be another Alabama or Pennsylvania

After the sensational Democratic party wins in the recent Alabama and Pennsylvania special elections there’s a lot of focus on Arizona 8th Congressional District where voting takes place next Tuesday. The earlier two elections saw victories for the Democratic Party which were particularly striking because because they were in places Trump had done so well at WH2016.

Read the full story here


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  • Options
    GIN1138GIN1138 Posts: 20,793
    First - NOT like Jezza on 8th June 2018.
  • Options
    JackWJackW Posts: 14,787
    Mike

    Fianl para typo "Alabama ans Pennsylvania" ....
  • Options
    ydoethurydoethur Posts: 67,109
    Curse of the new thread, reposted:
    Hard to find much fault with that list. Depressing in the sheer thinness of the talent on offer. Huw Irranca Davies would be the best in all probability but also the least likely to win.

    Labour need to lose power to a coalition of the opposition

    It should have happened 11 years ago and the failure of the Liberal Democrats to grasp what unfortunately proved a unique opportunity is still causing major problems.

    Labour are exhausted. They have had the longest run of any party with national executive power since 1830 and they are clearly floundering. They have no ideas, no talent and when Alun Davies and Leighton Andrews have been invited back despite their pasts it's clear they have no integrity and appointments go by favour only. When the end comes for them I think it will be sudden and dramatic - possibly crashing from first to third (or worse) in one election a la the Canadian Progressive Conerservatives, and for much the same reasons. They will end up in a situation where even allowing for deeply ingrained tribal instinct nobody is willing to vote for them.

    The catch is that unlike in Scotland no one party has established itself as the clear alternative, and the two parties in joint second place hold each other in deep suspicion. They will not be willing to work together - indeed they're wasting a lot of energy fighting each other rather than focussing fire on Labour. Therefore absent a revival of the Liberal Democrats, it's not easy to see where an alternative government would come from.

    Complicating matters are the regional political complexities. Plaid have a stranglehold on the Welsh-speaking west, Labour lock out the Valleys and the north-East, the Conservatives are strongest around the edges and the Liberal Democrats have lingering redoubts in the middle. It is hard to see how that will change even in a collapse. For example, it's easy enough to see Plaid replacing Labour in the western Valleys around Neath, Merthyr and Llanelli should the Labour hegemony crack, somewhat difficult to see them taking Wrexham or Delyn. Equally it is hard to see the Conservatives make headway in the rural west where their views would be most sympathetically received ordinarily because of the language issue, and damn near impossible to see them taking over the valleys outside maybe a couple of wealthier seats in Cardiff and Swansea.

    So I have to say I can't see any light at the end of the tunnel for Wales, I'm afraid. Ironically, it might be better in the medium term to have an absolute dud as First Minister in the hope it hastens the collapse.
  • Options
    TheWhiteRabbitTheWhiteRabbit Posts: 12,387
    "There’s been a bit of excitement on this latest “special” election because an Emerson poll found both parties neck and neck with the Republican just a point ahead."

    The Emerson poll showed the parties splitting along partisan lines, with the Dems (a) taking more independents and (b) more enthusiastic. It's the same shape as previous victories, though it may not be enough.

    I say maybe 2/1 - 3/1 is a far price for the Dems, happy to have got 7/1 earlier today.
  • Options
    CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,152
    GIN1138 said:

    First - NOT like Jezza on 8th June 2018.

    Talking of which I have just seen Jezza just out side Euston Station. Checking his phone.

    I will praise him for one thing: he is, by all accounts, a very good constituency MP.

    And I quite like David Lammy who can be really very thoughtful and impressive and, also, on occasion, amazingly stupid. But he is not predictable and on those subjects he cares deeply about he can really be very good.

    Similarly, Diane Abbott, for all her faults, gave an astoundingly good speech against the very illiberal 42-day detention without trial proposals that ignorant weasel, Blair, tried to bring in.

    Anyway on ID cards I am with Mr Meeks. NFW will I have one.
  • Options
    ydoethur said:

    Curse of the new thread, reposted:

    Hard to find much fault with that list. Depressing in the sheer thinness of the talent on offer. Huw Irranca Davies would be the best in all probability but also the least likely to win.

    Labour need to lose power to a coalition of the opposition

    It should have happened 11 years ago and the failure of the Liberal Democrats to grasp what unfortunately proved a unique opportunity is still causing major problems.

    Labour are exhausted. They have had the longest run of any party with national executive power since 1830 and they are clearly floundering. They have no ideas, no talent and when Alun Davies and Leighton Andrews have been invited back despite their pasts it's clear they have no integrity and appointments go by favour only. When the end comes for them I think it will be sudden and dramatic - possibly crashing from first to third (or worse) in one election a la the Canadian Progressive Conerservatives, and for much the same reasons. They will end up in a situation where even allowing for deeply ingrained tribal instinct nobody is willing to vote for them.

    The catch is that unlike in Scotland no one party has established itself as the clear alternative, and the two parties in joint second place hold each other in deep suspicion. They will not be willing to work together - indeed they're wasting a lot of energy fighting each other rather than focussing fire on Labour. Therefore absent a revival of the Liberal Democrats, it's not easy to see where an alternative government would come from.

    Complicating matters are the regional political complexities. Plaid have a stranglehold on the Welsh-speaking west, Labour lock out the Valleys and the north-East, the Conservatives are strongest around the edges and the Liberal Democrats have lingering redoubts in the middle. It is hard to see how that will change even in a collapse. For example, it's easy enough to see Plaid replacing Labour in the western Valleys around Neath, Merthyr and Llanelli should the Labour hegemony crack, somewhat difficult to see them taking Wrexham or Delyn. Equally it is hard to see the Conservatives make headway in the rural west where their views would be most sympathetically received ordinarily because of the language issue, and damn near impossible to see them taking over the valleys outside maybe a couple of wealthier seats in Cardiff and Swansea.

    So I have to say I can't see any light at the end of the tunnel for Wales, I'm afraid. Ironically, it might be better in the medium term to have an absolute dud as First Minister in the hope it hastens the collapse.
    Agree and it is depressing
  • Options
    JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 38,888
    Cyclefree said:

    GIN1138 said:

    First - NOT like Jezza on 8th June 2018.

    Talking of which I have just seen Jezza just out side Euston Station. Checking his phone.

    I will praise him for one thing: he is, by all accounts, a very good constituency MP.

    And I quite like David Lammy who can be really very thoughtful and impressive and, also, on occasion, amazingly stupid. But he is not predictable and on those subjects he cares deeply about he can really be very good.

    Similarly, Diane Abbott, for all her faults, gave an astoundingly good speech against the very illiberal 42-day detention without trial proposals that ignorant weasel, Blair, tried to bring in.

    Anyway on ID cards I am with Mr Meeks. NFW will I have one.
    Good evening Ms Free,

    I've just spent a couple of hours in the garden, and feel thoroughly enlivened after a good forking. As our premier horticulturist, do you agree that it is good for both body and soul to go forking a couple of times a week?
  • Options
    nunuonenunuone Posts: 1,138
    dems are not winning this district....there is no history of dems winning here.
    https://twitter.com/Redistrict/status/987398504933920771
  • Options
    Sean_FSean_F Posts: 35,789
    FPT Texas @Surby

    Between 2004 and 2016, there was a big swing to the Democrats. But, the Republican vote was flattered in 2004, by favourite son George W Bush being the candidate. In 2016, the Democratic vote was flattered by Clinton campaigning strongly in the State, in the mistaken belief she could win it, while Trump did relatively little campaigning there, focusing on swing States.

    The State was still 11% more Republican than the US as a whole, in 2016, compared to 17% in 2000, and 13% in 1996. I don't see it becoming truly competitive till 2028, at the earliest.
  • Options
    CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,152

    Cyclefree said:

    GIN1138 said:

    First - NOT like Jezza on 8th June 2018.

    Talking of which I have just seen Jezza just out side Euston Station. Checking his phone.

    I will praise him for one thing: he is, by all accounts, a very good constituency MP.

    And I quite like David Lammy who can be really very thoughtful and impressive and, also, on occasion, amazingly stupid. But he is not predictable and on those subjects he cares deeply about he can really be very good.

    Similarly, Diane Abbott, for all her faults, gave an astoundingly good speech against the very illiberal 42-day detention without trial proposals that ignorant weasel, Blair, tried to bring in.

    Anyway on ID cards I am with Mr Meeks. NFW will I have one.
    Good evening Ms Free,

    I've just spent a couple of hours in the garden, and feel thoroughly enlivened after a good forking. As our premier horticulturist, do you agree that it is good for both body and soul to go forking a couple of times a week?
    You are very naughty Mr Jessop. I am a great fan of forking, of course, in all its forms.

    But a couple of hours only - pah! You are a mere dilettante. Yesterday, for instance, I was at it for four hours and today a similar amount. A new wisteria has been planted, roses pruned and some gaps in the bedding filled. Seven bags of rubbish were taken to the recycling centre and my poor rough chapped hands will need a lot of TLC this evening. And there is still watering to do. Plus the terrace needs work. Tomorrow.

    For now, I am sitting in my comfy seat on the veranda, hidden away from the house, from where I can peak at my eldest two, cooking a lovely roast chicken dinner.
  • Options
    JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 38,888
    Cyclefree said:

    Cyclefree said:

    GIN1138 said:

    First - NOT like Jezza on 8th June 2018.

    Talking of which I have just seen Jezza just out side Euston Station. Checking his phone.

    I will praise him for one thing: he is, by all accounts, a very good constituency MP.

    And I quite like David Lammy who can be really very thoughtful and impressive and, also, on occasion, amazingly stupid. But he is not predictable and on those subjects he cares deeply about he can really be very good.

    Similarly, Diane Abbott, for all her faults, gave an astoundingly good speech against the very illiberal 42-day detention without trial proposals that ignorant weasel, Blair, tried to bring in.

    Anyway on ID cards I am with Mr Meeks. NFW will I have one.
    Good evening Ms Free,

    I've just spent a couple of hours in the garden, and feel thoroughly enlivened after a good forking. As our premier horticulturist, do you agree that it is good for both body and soul to go forking a couple of times a week?
    You are very naughty Mr Jessop. I am a great fan of forking, of course, in all its forms.

    But a couple of hours only - pah! You are a mere dilettante. Yesterday, for instance, I was at it for four hours and today a similar amount. A new wisteria has been planted, roses pruned and some gaps in the bedding filled. Seven bags of rubbish were taken to the recycling centre and my poor rough chapped hands will need a lot of TLC this evening. And there is still watering to do. Plus the terrace needs work. Tomorrow.

    For now, I am sitting in my comfy seat on the veranda, hidden away from the house, from where I can peak at my eldest two, cooking a lovely roast chicken dinner.
    I would love to fork all day, but sadly we have a new-build and therefore a garden that slugs find a little too cramped. Unless I went for the tiniest fork possible, but as a man I have to take pride in my forking, and a small one just won't do.

    Or so Mrs J says ...
  • Options
    QuincelQuincel Posts: 3,949
    nunuone said:

    dems are not winning this district....there is no history of dems winning here.
    https://twitter.com/Redistrict/status/987398504933920771

    Don't think the Dems will win, but this was their district until 2012.
  • Options
    NigelbNigelb Posts: 62,349
    I seem inadvertently to have put the mockers on Lancashire’s stirring chase of an unlikely target.
    Ah, well.

    Meanwhile Yorkshire have just seen Notts five wickets down in the second innings.
    All is well.
  • Options
    CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,152

    Cyclefree said:

    Cyclefree said:

    GIN1138 said:

    First - NOT like Jezza on 8th June 2018.

    Talking of which I have just seen Jezza just out side Euston Station. Checking his phone.

    I will praise him for one thing: he is, by all accounts, a very good constituency MP.

    And I quite like David Lammy who can be really very thoughtful and impressive and, also, on occasion, amazingly stupid. But he is not predictable and on those subjects he cares deeply about he can really be very good.

    Similarly, Diane Abbott, for all her faults, gave an astoundingly good speech against the very illiberal 42-day detention without trial proposals that ignorant weasel, Blair, tried to bring in.

    Anyway on ID cards I am with Mr Meeks. NFW will I have one.
    Good evening Ms Free,

    I've just spent a couple of hours in the garden, and feel thoroughly enlivened after a good forking. As our premier horticulturist, do you agree that it is good for both body and soul to go forking a couple of times a week?
    You are very naughty Mr Jessop. I am a great fan of forking, of course, in all its forms.

    But a couple of hours only - pah! You are a mere dilettante. Yesterday, for instance, I was at it for four hours and today a similar amount. A new wisteria has been planted, roses pruned and some gaps in the bedding filled. Seven bags of rubbish were taken to the recycling centre and my poor rough chapped hands will need a lot of TLC this evening. And there is still watering to do. Plus the terrace needs work. Tomorrow.

    For now, I am sitting in my comfy seat on the veranda, hidden away from the house, from where I can peak at my eldest two, cooking a lovely roast chicken dinner.
    I would love to fork all day, but sadly we have a new-build and therefore a garden that slugs find a little too cramped. Unless I went for the tiniest fork possible, but as a man I have to take pride in my forking, and a small one just won't do.

    Or so Mrs J says ...
    :)
  • Options
    ydoethurydoethur Posts: 67,109
    edited April 2018
    Nigelb said:

    I seem inadvertently to have put the mockers on Lancashire’s stirring chase of an unlikely target.
    Ah, well.

    Meanwhile Yorkshire have just seen Notts five wickets down in the second innings.
    All is well.

    We will tactfully not mention Gloucestershire, please.

    Although it could be worse. We could be Durham or Northants.

    And Middlesex is still very funny to watch.
  • Options
    AnneJGPAnneJGP Posts: 2,869

    Cyclefree said:

    Cyclefree said:

    GIN1138 said:

    First - NOT like Jezza on 8th June 2018.

    Talking of which I have just seen Jezza just out side Euston Station. Checking his phone.

    I will praise him for one thing: he is, by all accounts, a very good constituency MP.

    And I quite like David Lammy who can be really very thoughtful and impressive and, also, on occasion, amazingly stupid. But he is not predictable and on those subjects he cares deeply about he can really be very good.

    Similarly, Diane Abbott, for all her faults, gave an astoundingly good speech against the very illiberal 42-day detention without trial proposals that ignorant weasel, Blair, tried to bring in.

    Anyway on ID cards I am with Mr Meeks. NFW will I have one.
    Good evening Ms Free,

    I've just spent a couple of hours in the garden, and feel thoroughly enlivened after a good forking. As our premier horticulturist, do you agree that it is good for both body and soul to go forking a couple of times a week?
    You are very naughty Mr Jessop. I am a great fan of forking, of course, in all its forms.

    But a couple of hours only - pah! You are a mere dilettante. Yesterday, for instance, I was at it for four hours and today a similar amount. A new wisteria has been planted, roses pruned and some gaps in the bedding filled. Seven bags of rubbish were taken to the recycling centre and my poor rough chapped hands will need a lot of TLC this evening. And there is still watering to do. Plus the terrace needs work. Tomorrow.

    For now, I am sitting in my comfy seat on the veranda, hidden away from the house, from where I can peak at my eldest two, cooking a lovely roast chicken dinner.
    I would love to fork all day, but sadly we have a new-build and therefore a garden that slugs find a little too cramped. Unless I went for the tiniest fork possible, but as a man I have to take pride in my forking, and a small one just won't do.

    Or so Mrs J says ...
    I watched a River Cottage episode where they tried using slugs instead of snails. (I've often wondered, if snails are edible, why no-one uses slugs.)

    After giving it their best efforts, the chefs ended up with "If you're trying this at home, just one recommendation - leave out the slugs".

    Good evening, everybody.
  • Options
    Sean_FSean_F Posts: 35,789
    ydoethur said:

    Curse of the new thread, reposted:

    Hard to find much fault with that list. Depressing in the sheer thinness of the talent on offer. Huw Irranca Davies would be the best in all probability but also the least likely to win.

    Labour need to lose power to a coalition of the opposition

    It should have happened 11 years ago and the failure of the Liberal Democrats to grasp what unfortunately proved
    Labour are exhausted. They have had the longest run of any party with national executive power since 1830 and they are clearly floundering. They have no ideas, no talent and when Alun Davies and Leighton Andrews have been invited back despite their pasts it's clear they have no integrity and appointments go by favour only. When the end comes for them I think it will be sudden and dramatic - possibly crashing from first to third (or worse) in one election a la the Canadian Progressive Conerservatives, and for much the same reasons. They will end up in a situation where even allowing for deeply ingrained tribal instinct nobody is willing to vote for them.

    The catch is that unlike in Scotland no one party has established itself as the clear alternative, and the two parties in joint second place hold each other in deep suspicion. They will not be willing to work together - indeed they're wasting a lot of energy fighting each other rather than focussing fire on Labour. Therefore absent a revival of the Liberal Democrats, it's not easy to see where an alternative government would come from.

    Complicating matters are the regional political complexities. Plaid have a stranglehold on the Welsh-speaking west, Labour lock out the Valleys and the north-East, the Conservatives are strongest around the edges and the Liberal Democrats have lingering redoubts in the middle. It is hard to see how that will change even in a collapse. For example, it's easy enough to see Plaid replacing Labour in the western Valleys around Neath, Merthyr and Llanelli should the Labour hegemony crack, somewhat difficult to see them taking Wrexham or Delyn. Equally it is hard to see the Conservatives make headway in the rural west where their views would be most sympathetically received ordinarily because of the language issue, and damn near impossible to see them taking over the valleys outside maybe a couple of wealthier seats in Cardiff and Swansea.

    So I have to say I can't see any light at the end of the tunnel for Wales, I'm afraid. Ironically, it might be better in the medium term to have an absolute dud as First Minister in the hope it hastens the collapse.
    The Conservatives simply can't break into Welsh-speaking Wales or the Valleys. Overall, they have a high floor, but a low ceiling.
  • Options
    rpjsrpjs Posts: 3,787
    Quincel said:

    nunuone said:

    dems are not winning this district....there is no history of dems winning here.
    https://twitter.com/Redistrict/status/987398504933920771

    Don't think the Dems will win, but this was their district until 2012.
    On very different boundaries I understand.
  • Options
    QuincelQuincel Posts: 3,949
    rpjs said:

    Quincel said:

    nunuone said:

    dems are not winning this district....there is no history of dems winning here.
    https://twitter.com/Redistrict/status/987398504933920771

    Don't think the Dems will win, but this was their district until 2012.
    On very different boundaries I understand.
    Ah yes, hadn't noticed that. Cheers.
  • Options
    IanB2IanB2 Posts: 47,216
    Cyclefree said:

    Cyclefree said:

    GIN1138 said:

    First - NOT like Jezza on 8th June 2018.

    Talking of which I have just seen Jezza just out side Euston Station. Checking his phone.

    I will praise him for one thing: he is, by all accounts, a very good constituency MP.

    And I quite like David Lammy who can be really very thoughtful and impressive and, also, on occasion, amazingly stupid. But he is not predictable and on those subjects he cares deeply about he can really be very good.

    Similarly, Diane Abbott, for all her faults, gave an astoundingly good speech against the very illiberal 42-day detention without trial proposals that ignorant weasel, Blair, tried to bring in.

    Anyway on ID cards I am with Mr Meeks. NFW will I have one.
    Good evening Ms Free,

    I've just spent a couple of hours in the garden, and feel thoroughly enlivened after a good forking. As our premier horticulturist, do you agree that it is good for both body and soul to go forking a couple of times a week?
    You are very naughty Mr Jessop. I am a great fan of forking, of course, in all its forms.

    But a couple of hours only - pah! You are a mere dilettante. Yesterday, for instance, I was at it for four hours and today a similar amount. A new wisteria has been planted, roses pruned and some gaps in the bedding filled. Seven bags of rubbish were taken to the recycling centre and my poor rough chapped hands will need a lot of TLC this evening. And there is still watering to do. Plus the terrace needs work. Tomorrow.

    For now, I am sitting in my comfy seat on the veranda, hidden away from the house, from where I can peak at my eldest two, cooking a lovely roast chicken dinner.
    I have been at it for four hours this afternoon without so much as a glimpse of a fork.
  • Options
    FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 76,274
  • Options
    JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 38,888
    IanB2 said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Cyclefree said:

    GIN1138 said:

    First - NOT like Jezza on 8th June 2018.

    Talking of which I have just seen Jezza just out side Euston Station. Checking his phone.

    I will praise him for one thing: he is, by all accounts, a very good constituency MP.

    And I quite like David Lammy who can be really very thoughtful and impressive and, also, on occasion, amazingly stupid. But he is not predictable and on those subjects he cares deeply about he can really be very good.

    Similarly, Diane Abbott, for all her faults, gave an astoundingly good speech against the very illiberal 42-day detention without trial proposals that ignorant weasel, Blair, tried to bring in.

    Anyway on ID cards I am with Mr Meeks. NFW will I have one.
    Good evening Ms Free,

    I've just spent a couple of hours in the garden, and feel thoroughly enlivened after a good forking. As our premier horticulturist, do you agree that it is good for both body and soul to go forking a couple of times a week?
    You are very naughty Mr Jessop. I am a great fan of forking, of course, in all its forms.

    But a couple of hours only - pah! You are a mere dilettante. Yesterday, for instance, I was at it for four hours and today a similar amount. A new wisteria has been planted, roses pruned and some gaps in the bedding filled. Seven bags of rubbish were taken to the recycling centre and my poor rough chapped hands will need a lot of TLC this evening. And there is still watering to do. Plus the terrace needs work. Tomorrow.

    For now, I am sitting in my comfy seat on the veranda, hidden away from the house, from where I can peak at my eldest two, cooking a lovely roast chicken dinner.
    I have been at it for four hours this afternoon without so much as a glimpse of a fork.
    I hear that can make you go blind ...
  • Options
    AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 29,395
    Cyclefree said:

    GIN1138 said:

    First - NOT like Jezza on 8th June 2018.

    Talking of which I have just seen Jezza just out side Euston Station. Checking his phone.

    I will praise him for one thing: he is, by all accounts, a very good constituency MP.

    And I quite like David Lammy who can be really very thoughtful and impressive and, also, on occasion, amazingly stupid. But he is not predictable and on those subjects he cares deeply about he can really be very good.

    Similarly, Diane Abbott, for all her faults, gave an astoundingly good speech against the very illiberal 42-day detention without trial proposals that ignorant weasel, Blair, tried to bring in.

    Anyway on ID cards I am with Mr Meeks. NFW will I have one.
    I spotted Emily Thornberry outside St Pancras station about 3 months ago. Couldn't believe it was actually her to begin with but I had a second look and it was definitely her.
  • Options
    CD13CD13 Posts: 6,351
    Mr Jessop,

    "Anyway on ID cards I am with Mr Meeks. NFW will I have one."

    I could be tempted. I'm also available for being a victim of data harvesting and phone hacking. Prices on application.

    Who was it who received £600k having his phone hacked? Beats working for a living.

  • Options
    SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 20,578
    AndyJS said:

    Cyclefree said:

    GIN1138 said:

    First - NOT like Jezza on 8th June 2018.

    Talking of which I have just seen Jezza just out side Euston Station. Checking his phone.

    I will praise him for one thing: he is, by all accounts, a very good constituency MP.

    And I quite like David Lammy who can be really very thoughtful and impressive and, also, on occasion, amazingly stupid. But he is not predictable and on those subjects he cares deeply about he can really be very good.

    Similarly, Diane Abbott, for all her faults, gave an astoundingly good speech against the very illiberal 42-day detention without trial proposals that ignorant weasel, Blair, tried to bring in.

    Anyway on ID cards I am with Mr Meeks. NFW will I have one.
    I spotted Emily Thornberry outside St Pancras station about 3 months ago. Couldn't believe it was actually her to begin with but I had a second look and it was definitely her.
    I was 90% sure that I'd spotted Norman Tebbit on Thursday. It was the 10% of doubt that prevented me from entering into political discourse.
  • Options
    OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 31,918
    edited April 2018
    Nigelb said:

    I seem inadvertently to have put the mockers on Lancashire’s stirring chase of an unlikely target.
    Ah, well.

    Meanwhile Yorkshire have just seen Notts five wickets down in the second innings.
    All is well.

    Don't be too upset about Lancashire. An absorbing third day, and a great chase.Lancs just came up against superb bowlers on a pitch which was much more batsman friendly today than on days 1 and 2.

    Whst is galling is that Yorkshire, having failed abysmally to produce a pitch fit for any sort of cricket last weekend, look like being able to top the league.
    If it was anyone but Yorkshire, there'd have been a penalty deduction.
  • Options
    ydoethurydoethur Posts: 67,109
    edited April 2018

    AndyJS said:

    Cyclefree said:

    GIN1138 said:

    First - NOT like Jezza on 8th June 2018.

    Talking of which I have just seen Jezza just out side Euston Station. Checking his phone.

    I will praise him for one thing: he is, by all accounts, a very good constituency MP.

    And I quite like David Lammy who can be really very thoughtful and impressive and, also, on occasion, amazingly stupid. But he is not predictable and on those subjects he cares deeply about he can really be very good.

    Similarly, Diane Abbott, for all her faults, gave an astoundingly good speech against the very illiberal 42-day detention without trial proposals that ignorant weasel, Blair, tried to bring in.

    Anyway on ID cards I am with Mr Meeks. NFW will I have one.
    I spotted Emily Thornberry outside St Pancras station about 3 months ago. Couldn't believe it was actually her to begin with but I had a second look and it was definitely her.
    I was 90% sure that I'd spotted Norman Tebbit on Thursday. It was the 10% of doubt that prevented me from entering into political discourse.
    Probably for the best though. However deserved they might have been, even if directed at the right target the remarks I imagine you would have have made would still have been a breach of the peace and we wouldn't want to lose one of our best left-wing commentators.
  • Options
    TomsToms Posts: 2,478
    For this election, things have changed. For the time being Trump is---less reliably than measuring the state of Schroedinger's cat---toggling between "war-monger" and "peace-maker". I think either one usually gains popularity.
  • Options
    FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 76,274
    A few months ago I spotted man of the people Dennis Skinner seating near me in the posh seats at the Royal Albert Hall....I pay good money so I don't have to interact with the plebs!
  • Options
    Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 55,266

    surby said:

    Quincel said:

    ***** Betting Post *****


    But as ever, DYOR!

    Appreciate a well thought out betting post, but I can't agree. FTPA means that we only have an early election if:

    1. PM wants one and can get it through Parliament;
    2. Vote of no confidence.

    10/1 isn't bad odds, but I think the bookies are basically right that 2019 is the year to watch. If we get past that then 2022 is a real possibility.
    I think the circumstances when an election comes about is when Parliament has voted for customs union.

    So, what does May do then ?

    She cannot pretend it didn't happen because both HoC and HoL will have voted for it.

    If she really wants the UK out of the CU [ I doubt that - as I think she believes in very little ], the only way out for her is to call a GE, and asking the people to elect a new CON government and overturning the HoC decision. All before March 2019.
    I think the EU, HOL and HOC have orchestrated a coup on Brexit this last week and that the numbers for leaving the customs union do not exist.

    In these circumstances I expect TM will move towards the consensus and there is little the Brexiteers can do other than make a lot of noise. They are not going to threaten the government with Corbyn the alternative.

    Personally I am fine with staying in the customs union though if there was a referendum and that was the choice then I would vote to stay in the EU as it seems stupid to part leave and have no say ( as JRM says a vassal state) but the consequences would be unpredictable with an enomous feeling of betrayal by the Brexiteers
    Your final paragraph explains exactly why they're doing it.

    The gameplan is: pointless Brexit, followed by giving the people "the final say", thus reversing Brexit.
  • Options
    Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 55,266
    Sean_F said:

    ydoethur said:
    It should have happened 11 years ago and the failure of the Liberal Democrats to grasp what unfortunately proved
    Labour are exhausted. They have had the longest run of any party with national executive power since 1830 and they are clearly floundering. They have no ideas, no talent and when Alun Davies and Leighton Andrews have been invited back despite their pasts it's clear they have no integrity and appointments go by favour only. When the end comes for them I think it will be sudden and dramatic - possibly crashing from first to third (or worse) in one election a la the Canadian Progressive Conerservatives, and for much the same reasons. They will end up in a situation where even allowing for deeply ingrained tribal instinct nobody is willing to vote for them.

    The catch is that unlike in Scotland no one party has established itself as the clear alternative, and the two parties in joint second place hold each other in deep suspicion. They will not be willing to work together - indeed they're wasting a lot of energy fighting each other rather than focussing fire on Labour. Therefore absent a revival of the Liberal Democrats, it's not easy to see where an alternative government would come from.

    Complicating matters are the regional political complexities. Plaid have a stranglehold on the Welsh-speaking west, Labour lock out the Valleys and the north-East, the Conservatives are strongest around the edges and the Liberal Democrats have lingering redoubts in the middle. It is hard to see how that will change even in a collapse. For example, it's easy enough to see Plaid replacing Labour in the western Valleys around Neath, Merthyr and Llanelli should the Labour hegemony crack, somewhat difficult to see them taking Wrexham or Delyn. Equally it is hard to see the Conservatives make headway in the rural west where their views would be most sympathetically received ordinarily because of the language issue, and damn near impossible to see them taking over the valleys outside maybe a couple of wealthier seats in Cardiff and Swansea.

    So I have to say I can't see any light at the end of the tunnel for Wales, I'm afraid. Ironically, it might be better in the medium term to have an absolute dud as First Minister in the hope it hastens the collapse.
    The Conservatives simply can't break into Welsh-speaking Wales or the Valleys. Overall, they have a high floor, but a low ceiling.

    Coal-mining, and nationalism.
  • Options
    Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 60,247
    edited April 2018

    surby said:

    Quincel said:

    ***** Betting Post *****


    But as ever, DYOR!

    Appreciate a well thought out betting post, but I can't agree. FTPA means that we only have an early election if:

    1. PM wants one and can get it through Parliament;
    2. Vote of no confidence.

    10/1 isn't bad odds, but I think the bookies are basically right that 2019 is the year to watch. If we get past that then 2022 is a real possibility.
    I think the circumstances when an election comes about is when Parliament has voted for customs union.

    So, what does May do then ?

    She cannot pretend it didn't happen because both HoC and HoL will have voted for it.

    If she really wants the UK out of the CU [ I doubt that - as I think she believes in very little ], the only way out for her is to call a GE, and asking the people to elect a new CON government and overturning the HoC decision. All before March 2019.
    I think the EU, HOL and HOC have orchestrated a coup on Brexit this last week and that the numbers for leaving the customs union do not exist.

    In these circumstances I expect TM will move towards the consensus and there is little the Brexiteers can do other than make a lot of noise. They are not going to threaten the government with Corbyn the alternative.

    Personally I am fine with staying in the customs union though if there was a referendum and that was the choice then I would vote to stay in the EU as it seems stupid to part leave and have no say ( as JRM says a vassal state) but the consequences would be unpredictable with an enomous feeling of betrayal by the Brexiteers
    Your final paragraph explains exactly why they're doing it.

    The gameplan is: pointless Brexit, followed by giving the people "the final say", thus reversing Brexit.
    I am sure you are right but the consequences would be as I have said very unpredictable
  • Options
    AnneJGPAnneJGP Posts: 2,869



    Coal-mining, and nationalism.

    As long as the majority of Welsh voters are content with the performance of the Welsh legislature, surely their position in league tables doesn't really matter? We may think it matters, but we aren't Welsh voters.
  • Options
    GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 20,845
    AnneJGP said:



    Coal-mining, and nationalism.

    As long as the majority of Welsh voters are content with the performance of the Welsh legislature, surely their position in league tables doesn't really matter? We may think it matters, but we aren't Welsh voters.
    Some on here are.
  • Options
    Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 55,266
    FPT, I have taken Peter's tip of £10 on a GE this year at 10/1.

    I will certainly struggle to continue to support May if she caves in on the Customs Union. It goes against the basis of the whole Government's negotiating position for the last 16 months. She must ensure the UK is no longer bound by the Common Commercial Policy or the Common External Tariff.

    I can see her parliamentary position unravelling very quickly if she doesn't because Parliament (be it the HoC and/or the HoL) voting against it would amount to a VoNC, in my opinion.
  • Options
    TykejohnnoTykejohnno Posts: 7,362

    Nigelb said:

    I seem inadvertently to have put the mockers on Lancashire’s stirring chase of an unlikely target.
    Ah, well.

    Meanwhile Yorkshire have just seen Notts five wickets down in the second innings.
    All is well.

    Don't be too upset about Lancashire. An absorbing third day, and a great chase.Lancs just came up against superb bowlers on a pitch which was much more batsman friendly today than on days 1 and 2.

    Whst is galling is that Yorkshire, having failed abysmally to produce a pitch fit for any sort of cricket last weekend, look like being able to top the league.
    If it was anyone but Yorkshire, there'd have been a penalty deduction.
    Rubbish,have you seen the weather up here leading up to the game.
  • Options
    AnneJGPAnneJGP Posts: 2,869

    AnneJGP said:



    Coal-mining, and nationalism.

    As long as the majority of Welsh voters are content with the performance of the Welsh legislature, surely their position in league tables doesn't really matter? We may think it matters, but we aren't Welsh voters.
    Some on here are.
    True. However, if they are not content they are presumably in the minority.

    It's legitimate for people to feel that "they may not be very good but better that than an expert performance by people we can't stand".
  • Options
    OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 31,918

    Nigelb said:

    I seem inadvertently to have put the mockers on Lancashire’s stirring chase of an unlikely target.
    Ah, well.

    Meanwhile Yorkshire have just seen Notts five wickets down in the second innings.
    All is well.

    Don't be too upset about Lancashire. An absorbing third day, and a great chase.Lancs just came up against superb bowlers on a pitch which was much more batsman friendly today than on days 1 and 2.

    Whst is galling is that Yorkshire, having failed abysmally to produce a pitch fit for any sort of cricket last weekend, look like being able to top the league.
    If it was anyone but Yorkshire, there'd have been a penalty deduction.
    Rubbish,have you seen the weather up here leading up to the game.
    Whinging Tykes. There was play in Manchester.
  • Options
    tlg86tlg86 Posts: 25,187
    AnneJGP said:



    Coal-mining, and nationalism.

    As long as the majority of Welsh voters are content with the performance of the Welsh legislature, surely their position in league tables doesn't really matter? We may think it matters, but we aren't Welsh voters.
    Very much agree with this. My mum was complaining about (Tory run) Woking Borough Council the other day, and I said "well vote Lib Dem, then." Her reply was predictable: "I'm not voting for that lot."

    The only thing I would say about Wales is that Labour managed to get nearly half the seats for 34.7% of the constituency vote and 31.5% of the regional vote. In Scotland, the SNP got 63 out of 129 seats with 46.5% of the constituency vote and 41.7% of the regional vote. I guess that partly reflects the fact that people aren't voting tactically against Labour in Wales. Perhaps that will change.
  • Options
    AnneJGP said:



    Coal-mining, and nationalism.

    As long as the majority of Welsh voters are content with the performance of the Welsh legislature, surely their position in league tables doesn't really matter? We may think it matters, but we aren't Welsh voters.
    Labour +1 lib dem + 1 independent = 31 against the coalition of opposition of 29

  • Options
    Sean_FSean_F Posts: 35,789
    AnneJGP said:



    Coal-mining, and nationalism.

    As long as the majority of Welsh voters are content with the performance of the Welsh legislature, surely their position in league tables doesn't really matter? We may think it matters, but we aren't Welsh voters.
    True enough. If they're happy with Labour, so be it.
  • Options
    TykejohnnoTykejohnno Posts: 7,362

    Nigelb said:

    I seem inadvertently to have put the mockers on Lancashire’s stirring chase of an unlikely target.
    Ah, well.

    Meanwhile Yorkshire have just seen Notts five wickets down in the second innings.
    All is well.

    Don't be too upset about Lancashire. An absorbing third day, and a great chase.Lancs just came up against superb bowlers on a pitch which was much more batsman friendly today than on days 1 and 2.

    Whst is galling is that Yorkshire, having failed abysmally to produce a pitch fit for any sort of cricket last weekend, look like being able to top the league.
    If it was anyone but Yorkshire, there'd have been a penalty deduction.
    Rubbish,have you seen the weather up here leading up to the game.
    Whinging Tykes. There was play in Manchester.
    The weather probably saved you from a beating anyway.
  • Options
    NigelbNigelb Posts: 62,349

    Nigelb said:

    I seem inadvertently to have put the mockers on Lancashire’s stirring chase of an unlikely target.
    Ah, well.

    Meanwhile Yorkshire have just seen Notts five wickets down in the second innings.
    All is well.

    Don't be too upset about Lancashire. An absorbing third day, and a great chase.Lancs just came up against superb bowlers on a pitch which was much more batsman friendly today than on days 1 and 2.

    Whst is galling is that Yorkshire, having failed abysmally to produce a pitch fit for any sort of cricket last weekend, look like being able to top the league.
    If it was anyone but Yorkshire, there'd have been a penalty deduction.

    Who’s upset ?
    :smile:

    And I’m not sure you can really blame Yorkshire for one of the wettest springs in memory - or indeed how close to the Headingly surface is the water table.
  • Options
    Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 55,266
    AnneJGP said:



    Coal-mining, and nationalism.

    As long as the majority of Welsh voters are content with the performance of the Welsh legislature, surely their position in league tables doesn't really matter? We may think it matters, but we aren't Welsh voters.
    Oh, it's their decision. Absolutely.

    I just think Celtic nationalism and (historic centres of) coal-mining are well correlated with non-Conservative voting.
  • Options
    tlg86tlg86 Posts: 25,187
    By the way, WTF is Tobias Ellwood not in the cabinet?
  • Options
    tlg86 said:

    By the way, WTF is Tobias Ellwood not in the cabinet?

    Because he'd show up the likes of Gavin Williamson, and Mrs May can't have that.
  • Options
    tlg86tlg86 Posts: 25,187

    tlg86 said:

    By the way, WTF is Tobias Ellwood not in the cabinet?

    Because he'd show up the likes of Gavin Williamson, and Mrs May can't have that.
    I'm reading All Out War and got some funny looks on the train back from Devon the other day. I burst out laughing when I read that Gavin Williamson actually offered MPs his own job as Cameron's PPS if they'd back Remain in the referendum.
  • Options

    Nigelb said:

    I seem inadvertently to have put the mockers on Lancashire’s stirring chase of an unlikely target.
    Ah, well.

    Meanwhile Yorkshire have just seen Notts five wickets down in the second innings.
    All is well.

    Don't be too upset about Lancashire. An absorbing third day, and a great chase.Lancs just came up against superb bowlers on a pitch which was much more batsman friendly today than on days 1 and 2.

    Whst is galling is that Yorkshire, having failed abysmally to produce a pitch fit for any sort of cricket last weekend, look like being able to top the league.
    If it was anyone but Yorkshire, there'd have been a penalty deduction.
    Rubbish,have you seen the weather up here leading up to the game.
    Whinging Tykes. There was play in Manchester.
    But there wasn't 3 inches of snow in Manchester in the run up to the match like there was in Leeds.
  • Options
    OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 31,918
    edited April 2018

    Nigelb said:

    I seem inadvertently to have put the mockers on Lancashire’s stirring chase of an unlikely target.
    Ah, well.

    Meanwhile Yorkshire have just seen Notts five wickets down in the second innings.
    All is well.

    Don't be too upset about Lancashire. An absorbing third day, and a great chase.Lancs just came up against superb bowlers on a pitch which was much more batsman friendly today than on days 1 and 2.

    Whst is galling is that Yorkshire, having failed abysmally to produce a pitch fit for any sort of cricket last weekend, look like being able to top the league.
    If it was anyone but Yorkshire, there'd have been a penalty deduction.
    Rubbish,have you seen the weather up here leading up to the game.
    Whinging Tykes. There was play in Manchester.
    The weather probably saved you from a beating anyway.
    I could ask whether you are going to Scarboough Fair. Because Yorkshire vs Essex at Scarborough was very 'Fair' for Essex last season.
  • Options
    YBarddCwscYBarddCwsc Posts: 7,172
    edited April 2018
    AnneJGP said:



    Coal-mining, and nationalism.

    As long as the majority of Welsh voters are content with the performance of the Welsh legislature, surely their position in league tables doesn't really matter? We may think it matters, but we aren't Welsh voters.
    (i) A majority of voters are NOT content with the performance of the Welsh government. In 2016, Labour got 34.6 per cent of the constituency vote. and 31,5 % of the regional vote. Very far from a majority.

    (ii) Labour only lost one seat, so they ended up with 29 out of 60 seats -- just under half the seats. The method chosen for Welsh Assembly elections was decided by Blair's government. They pulled the same trick that they did in Scotland, and they set up a system that perennially favoured Labour.

    (iii) Whenever a party is endlessly in power (as Labour is in Wales), it is bad for the party and bad for the country. The party never renews itself in opposition, and the stench of corruption simply grows. E.g., whatever happened with Carl Sergeant, whether he was villain or hero, bully or bullied against, Labour can & have suppressed the report. That is not in the interest of open & good government.
  • Options
    tlg86 said:

    By the way, WTF is Tobias Ellwood not in the cabinet?

    And Johnny Mercer - talks sense and dwarfs the immature Williamson
  • Options
    tlg86 said:

    tlg86 said:

    By the way, WTF is Tobias Ellwood not in the cabinet?

    Because he'd show up the likes of Gavin Williamson, and Mrs May can't have that.
    I'm reading All Out War and got some funny looks on the train back from Devon the other day. I burst out laughing when I read that Gavin Williamson actually offered MPs his own job as Cameron's PPS if they'd back Remain in the referendum.
    Can I just say I was dissing Gavin Williamson before it was in fashion.

    I know someone compared Gavin Williamson to an incontinent puppy, really loyal and wants to be loved, but boy does he shit all over the bed and elsewhere.
  • Options

    AnneJGP said:



    Coal-mining, and nationalism.

    As long as the majority of Welsh voters are content with the performance of the Welsh legislature, surely their position in league tables doesn't really matter? We may think it matters, but we aren't Welsh voters.
    (i) A majority of voters are NOT content with the performance of the Welsh government. In 2016, Labour got 34.6 per cent of the constituency vote. and 31,5 % of the regional vote. Very far from a majority.

    (ii) Labour only lost one seat, so they ended up with 29 out of 60 seats -- just under half the seats. The method chosen for Welsh Assembly elections was decided by Blair's government. They pulled the same trick that they did in Scotland, and they set up a system that perennially favoured Labour.

    (iii) Whenever a party is endlessly in power (as Labour is in Wales), it is bad for the party and bad for the country. The party never renews itself in opposition, and the stench of corruption simply grows. E.g., whatever happened with Carl Sergeant, whether he was villain or hero, bully or bullied against, Labour can & have suppressed the report. That is not in the interests of open government.
    Absolutely agree
  • Options
    TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 114,284
    edited April 2018

    FPT, I have taken Peter's tip of £10 on a GE this year at 10/1.

    I will certainly struggle to continue to support May if she caves in on the Customs Union. It goes against the basis of the whole Government's negotiating position for the last 16 months. She must ensure the UK is no longer bound by the Common Commercial Policy or the Common External Tariff.

    I can see her parliamentary position unravelling very quickly if she doesn't because Parliament (be it the HoC and/or the HoL) voting against it would amount to a VoNC, in my opinion.

    I called that earlier on this year*

    If Theresa May keeps us in the customs union I'll do regularly threads saying she's the greatest Tory of her generation, even better than Dave and George.

    The logical end game will be not to offer a referendum on a customs union, but to say in a few years time, well since we're in the customs union we might as well rejoin the single market.

    Rejoining the single market and its restraint on state intervention will look brilliant after 5 years of PM Corbyn.

    *In this thread. http://www2.politicalbetting.com/index.php/archives/2018/02/25/why-i-wont-be-surprised-to-see-a-general-election-or-corbyn-become-prime-minister-this-year/
  • Options
    tlg86tlg86 Posts: 25,187

    Nigelb said:

    I seem inadvertently to have put the mockers on Lancashire’s stirring chase of an unlikely target.
    Ah, well.

    Meanwhile Yorkshire have just seen Notts five wickets down in the second innings.
    All is well.

    Don't be too upset about Lancashire. An absorbing third day, and a great chase.Lancs just came up against superb bowlers on a pitch which was much more batsman friendly today than on days 1 and 2.

    Whst is galling is that Yorkshire, having failed abysmally to produce a pitch fit for any sort of cricket last weekend, look like being able to top the league.
    If it was anyone but Yorkshire, there'd have been a penalty deduction.
    Rubbish,have you seen the weather up here leading up to the game.
    Whinging Tykes. There was play in Manchester.
    The weather probably saved you from a beating anyway.
    I could ask whether you are going to Scarboough Fair. Because Yorkshire vs Essex at Scarborough was very 'Fair' for Essex last season.
    Fun fact, my great great uncle played a big part in making the Scarborough Festival what it is:

    http://www.espncricinfo.com/cricketer/content/story/247620.html
  • Options
    TykejohnnoTykejohnno Posts: 7,362

    Nigelb said:

    I seem inadvertently to have put the mockers on Lancashire’s stirring chase of an unlikely target.
    Ah, well.

    Meanwhile Yorkshire have just seen Notts five wickets down in the second innings.
    All is well.

    Don't be too upset about Lancashire. An absorbing third day, and a great chase.Lancs just came up against superb bowlers on a pitch which was much more batsman friendly today than on days 1 and 2.

    Whst is galling is that Yorkshire, having failed abysmally to produce a pitch fit for any sort of cricket last weekend, look like being able to top the league.
    If it was anyone but Yorkshire, there'd have been a penalty deduction.
    Rubbish,have you seen the weather up here leading up to the game.
    Whinging Tykes. There was play in Manchester.
    The weather probably saved you from a beating anyway.
    I could ask whether you are to Scarboough Fair. Because Yorkshire vs Essex at Scarborough was very 'Fair' for Essex last season.
    I know Yorkshire were well up for the Essex meeting this season for the two hammerings Essex gave the Tykes.

    The beating Essex gave Yorkshire at chelmsford last season nearly cost Andrew Gale his job and it was one of the lowest points so far for him and you could see in the interviews leading up to the game,he wanted revenge ;-)
  • Options
    TheWhiteRabbitTheWhiteRabbit Posts: 12,387
    nunuone said:
    elsewhere Dems have managed to reverse such gaps
  • Options
    notmenotme Posts: 3,293

    FPT, I have taken Peter's tip of £10 on a GE this year at 10/1.

    I will certainly struggle to continue to support May if she caves in on the Customs Union. It goes against the basis of the whole Government's negotiating position for the last 16 months. She must ensure the UK is no longer bound by the Common Commercial Policy or the Common External Tariff.

    I can see her parliamentary position unravelling very quickly if she doesn't because Parliament (be it the HoC and/or the HoL) voting against it would amount to a VoNC, in my opinion.

    I called that earlier on this year*

    If Theresa May keeps us in the customs union I'll do regularly threads saying she's the greatest Tory of her generation, even better than Dave and George.

    The logical end game will be not to offer a referendum on a customs union, but to say in a few years time, well since we're in the customs union we might as well rejoin the single market.

    Rejoining the single market and its restraint on state intervention will look brilliant after 5 years of PM Corbyn.

    *In this thread. http://www2.politicalbetting.com/index.php/archives/2018/02/25/why-i-wont-be-surprised-to-see-a-general-election-or-corbyn-become-prime-minister-this-year/
    My only regret over voting leave. Corbyn outside of the single market could really mess things up with the economy.
  • Options

    FPT, I have taken Peter's tip of £10 on a GE this year at 10/1.

    I will certainly struggle to continue to support May if she caves in on the Customs Union. It goes against the basis of the whole Government's negotiating position for the last 16 months. She must ensure the UK is no longer bound by the Common Commercial Policy or the Common External Tariff.

    I can see her parliamentary position unravelling very quickly if she doesn't because Parliament (be it the HoC and/or the HoL) voting against it would amount to a VoNC, in my opinion.

    I called that earlier on this year*

    If Theresa May keeps us in the customs union I'll do regularly threads saying she's the greatest Tory of her generation, even better than Dave and George.

    The logical end game will be not to offer a referendum on a customs union, but to say in a few years time, well since we're in the customs union we might as well rejoin the single market.

    Rejoining the single market and its restraint on state intervention will look brilliant after 5 years of PM Corbyn.

    *In this thread. http://www2.politicalbetting.com/index.php/archives/2018/02/25/why-i-wont-be-surprised-to-see-a-general-election-or-corbyn-become-prime-minister-this-year/
    She must see the numbers and know there is no other way but would suggest her strategy will be to let the HOC do the dirty deed and then confirm she has no choice to wrap up a deal on those lines and recommend it to the HOC.

    I seem to recall that being suggested by someone earlier today.

    Then you can extol her magnificence
  • Options
    TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 39,956

    AnneJGP said:



    Coal-mining, and nationalism.

    As long as the majority of Welsh voters are content with the performance of the Welsh legislature, surely their position in league tables doesn't really matter? We may think it matters, but we aren't Welsh voters.
    (i) A majority of voters are NOT content with the performance of the Welsh government. In 2016, Labour got 34.6 per cent of the constituency vote. and 31,5 % of the regional vote. Very far from a majority.

    (ii) Labour only lost one seat, so they ended up with 29 out of 60 seats -- just under half the seats. The method chosen for Welsh Assembly elections was decided by Blair's government. They pulled the same trick that they did in Scotland, and they set up a system that perennially favoured Labour.

    (iii) Whenever a party is endlessly in power (as Labour is in Wales), it is bad for the party and bad for the country. The party never renews itself in opposition, and the stench of corruption simply grows. E.g., whatever happened with Carl Sergeant, whether he was villain or hero, bully or bullied against, Labour can & have suppressed the report. That is not in the interest of open & good government.
    Can't say I've seen much evidence of renewal in SLab, but I may not be entirely clear eyed about it.
  • Options
    surbysurby Posts: 1,227

    surby said:

    Quincel said:

    ***** Betting Post *****


    But as ever, DYOR!

    Appreciate a well thought out betting post, but I can't agree. FTPA means that we only have an early election if:

    1. PM wants one and can get it through Parliament;
    2. Vote of no confidence.

    10/1 isn't bad odds, but I think the bookies are basically right that 2019 is the year to watch. If we get past that then 2022 is a real possibility.
    I think the circumstances when an election comes about is when Parliament has voted for customs union.

    So, what does May do then ?

    She cannot pretend it didn't happen because both HoC and HoL will have voted for it.

    If she really wants the UK out of the CU [ I doubt that - as I think she believes in very little ], the only way out for her is to call a GE, and asking the people to elect a new CON government and overturning the HoC decision. All before March 2019.
    I think the EU, HOL and HOC have orchestrated a coup on Brexit this last week and that the numbers for leaving the customs union do not exist.

    In these circumstances I expect TM will move towards the consensus and there is little the Brexiteers can do other than make a lot of noise. They are not going to threaten the government with Corbyn the alternative.

    Personally I am fine with staying in the customs union though if there was a referendum and that was the choice then I would vote to stay in the EU as it seems stupid to part leave and have no say ( as JRM says a vassal state) but the consequences would be unpredictable with an enomous feeling of betrayal by the Brexiteers
    Your final paragraph explains exactly why they're doing it.

    The gameplan is: pointless Brexit, followed by giving the people "the final say", thus reversing Brexit.
    I sincerely hope that is what comes about.
  • Options
    FF43FF43 Posts: 15,692
    edited April 2018

    FPT, I have taken Peter's tip of £10 on a GE this year at 10/1.

    I will certainly struggle to continue to support May if she caves in on the Customs Union. It goes against the basis of the whole Government's negotiating position for the last 16 months. She must ensure the UK is no longer bound by the Common Commercial Policy or the Common External Tariff.

    I can see her parliamentary position unravelling very quickly if she doesn't because Parliament (be it the HoC and/or the HoL) voting against it would amount to a VoNC, in my opinion.

    There's no negotiation. Surely you have realised that by now? It's take it or leave it. We could leave it, we do have a choice, but there are problems with that approach. Firstly the government decided to take it in December, so reversing that decision, which didn't do them any harm, would be disturbing. Not taking it will be very chaotic. In any case leaving it would probably just be taking it, delayed.

    We'll take it.
  • Options
    DavidLDavidL Posts: 51,125
    notme said:

    FPT, I have taken Peter's tip of £10 on a GE this year at 10/1.

    I will certainly struggle to continue to support May if she caves in on the Customs Union. It goes against the basis of the whole Government's negotiating position for the last 16 months. She must ensure the UK is no longer bound by the Common Commercial Policy or the Common External Tariff.

    I can see her parliamentary position unravelling very quickly if she doesn't because Parliament (be it the HoC and/or the HoL) voting against it would amount to a VoNC, in my opinion.

    I called that earlier on this year*

    If Theresa May keeps us in the customs union I'll do regularly threads saying she's the greatest Tory of her generation, even better than Dave and George.

    The logical end game will be not to offer a referendum on a customs union, but to say in a few years time, well since we're in the customs union we might as well rejoin the single market.

    Rejoining the single market and its restraint on state intervention will look brilliant after 5 years of PM Corbyn.

    *In this thread. http://www2.politicalbetting.com/index.php/archives/2018/02/25/why-i-wont-be-surprised-to-see-a-general-election-or-corbyn-become-prime-minister-this-year/
    My only regret over voting leave. Corbyn outside of the single market could really mess things up with the economy.
    If Corbyn becomes PM whether we are in or out of the Single Market will be the least of our problems.
  • Options
    BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 31,560
    notme said:

    FPT, I have taken Peter's tip of £10 on a GE this year at 10/1.

    I will certainly struggle to continue to support May if she caves in on the Customs Union. It goes against the basis of the whole Government's negotiating position for the last 16 months. She must ensure the UK is no longer bound by the Common Commercial Policy or the Common External Tariff.

    I can see her parliamentary position unravelling very quickly if she doesn't because Parliament (be it the HoC and/or the HoL) voting against it would amount to a VoNC, in my opinion.

    I called that earlier on this year*

    If Theresa May keeps us in the customs union I'll do regularly threads saying she's the greatest Tory of her generation, even better than Dave and George.

    The logical end game will be not to offer a referendum on a customs union, but to say in a few years time, well since we're in the customs union we might as well rejoin the single market.

    Rejoining the single market and its restraint on state intervention will look brilliant after 5 years of PM Corbyn.

    *In this thread. http://www2.politicalbetting.com/index.php/archives/2018/02/25/why-i-wont-be-surprised-to-see-a-general-election-or-corbyn-become-prime-minister-this-year/
    My only regret over voting leave. Corbyn outside of the single market could really mess things up with the economy.
    Remove the word 'Corbyn' from that last sentence and it still holds true.
  • Options
    OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 31,918

    Nigelb said:

    I seem inadvertently to have put the mockers on Lancashire’s stirring chase of an unlikely target.
    Ah, well.

    Meanwhile Yorkshire have just seen Notts five wickets down in the second innings.
    All is well.

    Don't be too upset about Lancashire. An absorbing third day, and a great chase.Lancs just came up against superb bowlers on a pitch which was much more batsman friendly today than on days 1 and 2.

    Whst is galling is that Yorkshire, having failed abysmally to produce a pitch fit for any sort of cricket last weekend, look like being able to top the league.
    If it was anyone but Yorkshire, there'd have been a penalty deduction.
    Rubbish,have you seen the weather up here leading up to the game.
    Whinging Tykes. There was play in Manchester.
    The weather probably saved you from a beating anyway.
    I could ask whether you are to Scarboough Fair. Because Yorkshire vs Essex at Scarborough was very 'Fair' for Essex last season.
    I know Yorkshire were well up for the Essex meeting this season for the two hammerings Essex gave the Tykes.

    The beating Essex gave Yorkshire at chelmsford last season nearly cost Andrew Gale his job and it was one of the lowest points so far for him and you could see in the interviews leading up to the game,he wanted revenge ;-)
    I was just getting over Radiotherapy for prostate cancer when I watched the game at Chelmsford last year. Had to keep nipping off to the Gents, but it the euphoria helped quite a lot. This year my family have booked a hospitality box during the game at Chelmsford...... one day only ..... for my 80th birthday party.
    So TBH I'm hoping for similar.
  • Options
    YBarddCwscYBarddCwsc Posts: 7,172

    AnneJGP said:



    Coal-mining, and nationalism.

    As long as the majority of Welsh voters are content with the performance of the Welsh legislature, surely their position in league tables doesn't really matter? We may think it matters, but we aren't Welsh voters.
    (i) A majority of voters are NOT content with the performance of the Welsh government. In 2016, Labour got 34.6 per cent of the constituency vote. and 31,5 % of the regional vote. Very far from a majority.

    (ii) Labour only lost one seat, so they ended up with 29 out of 60 seats -- just under half the seats. The method chosen for Welsh Assembly elections was decided by Blair's government. They pulled the same trick that they did in Scotland, and they set up a system that perennially favoured Labour.

    (iii) Whenever a party is endlessly in power (as Labour is in Wales), it is bad for the party and bad for the country. The party never renews itself in opposition, and the stench of corruption simply grows. E.g., whatever happened with Carl Sergeant, whether he was villain or hero, bully or bullied against, Labour can & have suppressed the report. That is not in the interest of open & good government.
    Can't say I've seen much evidence of renewal in SLab, but I may not be entirely clear eyed about it.
    I imagine the green shoots of recovery take a while when the ground has been so thoroughly poisoned. I believe that Slab will eventually recover, but it is surely a decade's work.

    Still, the future of Scotland is much brighter than the future of Wales.

    Until a country can change its government, until politicians realise there is a price to be paid for failure or incompetence or corruption, then there is no real hope.
  • Options
    FF43FF43 Posts: 15,692

    FPT, I have taken Peter's tip of £10 on a GE this year at 10/1.

    I will certainly struggle to continue to support May if she caves in on the Customs Union. It goes against the basis of the whole Government's negotiating position for the last 16 months. She must ensure the UK is no longer bound by the Common Commercial Policy or the Common External Tariff.

    I can see her parliamentary position unravelling very quickly if she doesn't because Parliament (be it the HoC and/or the HoL) voting against it would amount to a VoNC, in my opinion.

    I called that earlier on this year*

    If Theresa May keeps us in the customs union I'll do regularly threads saying she's the greatest Tory of her generation, even better than Dave and George.

    The logical end game will be not to offer a referendum on a customs union, but to say in a few years time, well since we're in the customs union we might as well rejoin the single market.

    Rejoining the single market and its restraint on state intervention will look brilliant after 5 years of PM Corbyn.

    *In this thread. http://www2.politicalbetting.com/index.php/archives/2018/02/25/why-i-wont-be-surprised-to-see-a-general-election-or-corbyn-become-prime-minister-this-year/
    The Single Market crunch will come next year, not in a few years time. We need something in place for when the transition runs out, assuming the transition actually happens, because we did agree to the Customs Union.
  • Options
    DavidLDavidL Posts: 51,125

    Nigelb said:

    I seem inadvertently to have put the mockers on Lancashire’s stirring chase of an unlikely target.
    Ah, well.

    Meanwhile Yorkshire have just seen Notts five wickets down in the second innings.
    All is well.

    Don't be too upset about Lancashire. An absorbing third day, and a great chase.Lancs just came up against superb bowlers on a pitch which was much more batsman friendly today than on days 1 and 2.

    Whst is galling is that Yorkshire, having failed abysmally to produce a pitch fit for any sort of cricket last weekend, look like being able to top the league.
    If it was anyone but Yorkshire, there'd have been a penalty deduction.
    Rubbish,have you seen the weather up here leading up to the game.
    Whinging Tykes. There was play in Manchester.
    The weather probably saved you from a beating anyway.
    I could ask whether you are to Scarboough Fair. Because Yorkshire vs Essex at Scarborough was very 'Fair' for Essex last season.
    I know Yorkshire were well up for the Essex meeting this season for the two hammerings Essex gave the Tykes.

    The beating Essex gave Yorkshire at chelmsford last season nearly cost Andrew Gale his job and it was one of the lowest points so far for him and you could see in the interviews leading up to the game,he wanted revenge ;-)
    I was just getting over Radiotherapy for prostate cancer when I watched the game at Chelmsford last year. Had to keep nipping off to the Gents, but it the euphoria helped quite a lot. This year my family have booked a hospitality box during the game at Chelmsford...... one day only ..... for my 80th birthday party.
    So TBH I'm hoping for similar.
    Sounds fantastic. Hope the weather is kind.

    In true traditional Scottish style we had our BBQ this afternoon, eating in the conservatory. But BBQs survive drizzle better than cricket.
  • Options
    ydoethurydoethur Posts: 67,109

    AnneJGP said:



    Coal-mining, and nationalism.

    As long as the majority of Welsh voters are content with the performance of the Welsh legislature, surely their position in league tables doesn't really matter? We may think it matters, but we aren't Welsh voters.
    (i) A majority of voters are NOT content with the performance of the Welsh government. In 2016, Labour got 34.6 per cent of the constituency vote. and 31,5 % of the regional vote. Very far from a majority.
    They sank even lower in 2007 - 32% and 29% - but still won 27 seats. That's how tough getting them out of office is. (As the rainbow alternative failed, and Plaid propped them up for four years by which time the Coalition were in government and a target for Morgan to aim at, in 2011 they regained their majority.)

    It's also however why the collapse if they go below that might be cliff-edge rather than the gradual decline we've seen in Scotland.
  • Options

    notme said:

    FPT, I have taken Peter's tip of £10 on a GE this year at 10/1.

    I will certainly struggle to continue to support May if she caves in on the Customs Union. It goes against the basis of the whole Government's negotiating position for the last 16 months. She must ensure the UK is no longer bound by the Common Commercial Policy or the Common External Tariff.

    I can see her parliamentary position unravelling very quickly if she doesn't because Parliament (be it the HoC and/or the HoL) voting against it would amount to a VoNC, in my opinion.

    I called that earlier on this year*

    If Theresa May keeps us in the customs union I'll do regularly threads saying she's the greatest Tory of her generation, even better than Dave and George.

    The logical end game will be not to offer a referendum on a customs union, but to say in a few years time, well since we're in the customs union we might as well rejoin the single market.

    Rejoining the single market and its restraint on state intervention will look brilliant after 5 years of PM Corbyn.

    *In this thread. http://www2.politicalbetting.com/index.php/archives/2018/02/25/why-i-wont-be-surprised-to-see-a-general-election-or-corbyn-become-prime-minister-this-year/
    My only regret over voting leave. Corbyn outside of the single market could really mess things up with the economy.
    Remove the word 'Corbyn' from that last sentence and it still holds true.
    Maybe just 'remove Corbyn '
  • Options
    TykejohnnoTykejohnno Posts: 7,362

    Nigelb said:

    I seem inadvertently to have put the mockers on Lancashire’s stirring chase of an unlikely target.
    Ah, well.

    Meanwhile Yorkshire have just seen Notts five wickets down in the second innings.
    All is well.

    Don't be too upset about Lancashire. An absorbing third day, and a great chase.Lancs just came up against superb bowlers on a pitch which was much more batsman friendly today than on days 1 and 2.

    Whst is galling is that Yorkshire, having failed abysmally to produce a pitch fit for any sort of cricket last weekend, look like being able to top the league.
    If it was anyone but Yorkshire, there'd have been a penalty deduction.
    Rubbish,have you seen the weather up here leading up to the game.
    Whinging Tykes. There was play in Manchester.
    The weather probably saved you from a beating anyway.
    I could ask whether you are to Scarboough Fair. Because Yorkshire vs Essex at Scarborough was very 'Fair' for Essex last season.
    I know Yorkshire were well up for the Essex meeting this season for the two hammerings Essex gave the Tykes.

    The beating Essex gave Yorkshire at chelmsford last season nearly cost Andrew Gale his job and it was one of the lowest points so far for him and you could see in the interviews leading up to the game,he wanted revenge ;-)
    I was just getting over Radiotherapy for prostate cancer when I watched the game at Chelmsford last year. Had to keep nipping off to the Gents, but it the euphoria helped quite a lot. This year my family have booked a hospitality box during the game at Chelmsford...... one day only ..... for my 80th birthday party.
    So TBH I'm hoping for similar.
    Hope everything going well healthwise Mr Cole and yes,the game at chelmsford was a shocker for Yorkshire and it's fans

    I just hope your family has booked the first day after yorkshires batting last season ;-) we don't want you celebrating too hard ;-)

  • Options
    OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 31,918

    Nigelb said:

    I seem inadvertently to have put the mockers on Lancashire’s stirring chase of an unlikely target.
    Ah, well.

    Meanwhile Yorkshire have just seen Notts five wickets down in the second innings.
    All is well.

    Don't be too upset about Lancashire. An absorbing third day, and a great chase.Lancs just came up against superb bowlers on a pitch which was much more batsman friendly today than on days 1 and 2.

    Whst is galling is that Yorkshire, having failed abysmally to produce a pitch fit for any sort of cricket last weekend, look like being able to top the league.
    If it was anyone but Yorkshire, there'd have been a penalty deduction.
    Rubbish,have you seen the weather up here leading up to the game.
    Whinging Tykes. There was play in Manchester.
    The weather probably saved you from a beating anyway.
    I could ask whether you are to Scarboough Fair. Because Yorkshire vs Essex at Scarborough was very 'Fair' for Essex last season.
    I know Yorkshire were well up for the Essex meeting this season for the two hammerings Essex gave the Tykes.

    The beating Essex gave Yorkshire at chelmsford last season nearly cost Andrew Gale his job and it was one of the lowest points so far for him and you could see in the interviews leading up to the game,he wanted revenge ;-)
    I was just getting over Radiotherapy for prostate cancer when I watched the game at Chelmsford last year. Had to keep nipping off to the Gents, but it the euphoria helped quite a lot. This year my family have booked a hospitality box during the game at Chelmsford...... one day only ..... for my 80th birthday party.
    So TBH I'm hoping for similar.
    Hope everything going well healthwise Mr Cole and yes,the game at chelmsford was a shocker for Yorkshire and it's fans

    I just hope your family has booked the first day after yorkshires batting last season ;-) we don't want you celebrating too hard ;-)

    Thanks. And thanks Mr L. The party's on the third day.
  • Options
    YBarddCwscYBarddCwsc Posts: 7,172
    ydoethur said:

    AnneJGP said:



    Coal-mining, and nationalism.

    As long as the majority of Welsh voters are content with the performance of the Welsh legislature, surely their position in league tables doesn't really matter? We may think it matters, but we aren't Welsh voters.
    (i) A majority of voters are NOT content with the performance of the Welsh government. In 2016, Labour got 34.6 per cent of the constituency vote. and 31,5 % of the regional vote. Very far from a majority.
    They sank even lower in 2007 - 32% and 29% - but still won 27 seats. That's how tough getting them out of office is. (As the rainbow alternative failed, and Plaid propped them up for four years by which time the Coalition were in government and a target for Morgan to aim at, in 2011 they regained their majority.)

    It's also however why the collapse if they go below that might be cliff-edge rather than the gradual decline we've seen in Scotland.
    The cliff-edge is waiting for them, but it is probably a couple more elections away.

    I agree with you that the LibDems are partly responsible for the parlous state of Welsh politics, as they backed out of the Rainbow Coalition.
  • Options
    surbysurby Posts: 1,227

    FPT, I have taken Peter's tip of £10 on a GE this year at 10/1.

    I will certainly struggle to continue to support May if she caves in on the Customs Union. It goes against the basis of the whole Government's negotiating position for the last 16 months. She must ensure the UK is no longer bound by the Common Commercial Policy or the Common External Tariff.

    I can see her parliamentary position unravelling very quickly if she doesn't because Parliament (be it the HoC and/or the HoL) voting against it would amount to a VoNC, in my opinion.

    I called that earlier on this year*

    If Theresa May keeps us in the customs union I'll do regularly threads saying she's the greatest Tory of her generation, even better than Dave and George.

    The logical end game will be not to offer a referendum on a customs union, but to say in a few years time, well since we're in the customs union we might as well rejoin the single market.

    Rejoining the single market and its restraint on state intervention will look brilliant after 5 years of PM Corbyn.

    *In this thread. http://www2.politicalbetting.com/index.php/archives/2018/02/25/why-i-wont-be-surprised-to-see-a-general-election-or-corbyn-become-prime-minister-this-year/
    She must see the numbers and know there is no other way but would suggest her strategy will be to let the HOC do the dirty deed and then confirm she has no choice to wrap up a deal on those lines and recommend it to the HOC.

    I seem to recall that being suggested by someone earlier today.

    Then you can extol her magnificence
    4:37 pm today in the previous thread.
  • Options
    Sean_FSean_F Posts: 35,789
    ydoethur said:

    AnneJGP said:



    Coal-mining, and nationalism.

    As long as the majority of Welsh voters are content with the performance of the Welsh legislature, surely their position in league tables doesn't really matter? We may think it matters, but we aren't Welsh voters.
    (i) A majority of voters are NOT content with the performance of the Welsh government. In 2016, Labour got 34.6 per cent of the constituency vote. and 31,5 % of the regional vote. Very far from a majority.
    They sank even lower in 2007 - 32% and 29% - but still won 27 seats. That's how tough getting them out of office is. (As the rainbow alternative failed, and Plaid propped them up for four years by which time the Coalition were in government and a target for Morgan to aim at, in 2011 they regained their majority.)

    It's also however why the collapse if they go below that might be cliff-edge rather than the gradual decline we've seen in Scotland.
    But, you've got 15-20% voting for Plaid, whose only objection to Labour is that they are not left wing enough.
  • Options
    surby said:

    FPT, I have taken Peter's tip of £10 on a GE this year at 10/1.

    I will certainly struggle to continue to support May if she caves in on the Customs Union. It goes against the basis of the whole Government's negotiating position for the last 16 months. She must ensure the UK is no longer bound by the Common Commercial Policy or the Common External Tariff.

    I can see her parliamentary position unravelling very quickly if she doesn't because Parliament (be it the HoC and/or the HoL) voting against it would amount to a VoNC, in my opinion.

    I called that earlier on this year*

    If Theresa May keeps us in the customs union I'll do regularly threads saying she's the greatest Tory of her generation, even better than Dave and George.

    The logical end game will be not to offer a referendum on a customs union, but to say in a few years time, well since we're in the customs union we might as well rejoin the single market.

    Rejoining the single market and its restraint on state intervention will look brilliant after 5 years of PM Corbyn.

    *In this thread. http://www2.politicalbetting.com/index.php/archives/2018/02/25/why-i-wont-be-surprised-to-see-a-general-election-or-corbyn-become-prime-minister-this-year/
    She must see the numbers and know there is no other way but would suggest her strategy will be to let the HOC do the dirty deed and then confirm she has no choice to wrap up a deal on those lines and recommend it to the HOC.

    I seem to recall that being suggested by someone earlier today.

    Then you can extol her magnificence
    4:37 pm today in the previous thread.
    Thank you - was cooking my dear wife a chicken roast plus trimmings and apple crumble at the time
  • Options
    DavidLDavidL Posts: 51,125
    Sean_F said:

    ydoethur said:

    AnneJGP said:



    Coal-mining, and nationalism.

    As long as the majority of Welsh voters are content with the performance of the Welsh legislature, surely their position in league tables doesn't really matter? We may think it matters, but we aren't Welsh voters.
    (i) A majority of voters are NOT content with the performance of the Welsh government. In 2016, Labour got 34.6 per cent of the constituency vote. and 31,5 % of the regional vote. Very far from a majority.
    They sank even lower in 2007 - 32% and 29% - but still won 27 seats. That's how tough getting them out of office is. (As the rainbow alternative failed, and Plaid propped them up for four years by which time the Coalition were in government and a target for Morgan to aim at, in 2011 they regained their majority.)

    It's also however why the collapse if they go below that might be cliff-edge rather than the gradual decline we've seen in Scotland.
    But, you've got 15-20% voting for Plaid, whose only objection to Labour is that they are not left wing enough.
    Quite. I expect the next government of Wales to be a Labour/PC coalition. PC will never back the Tories and I don't think it is possible for the Tories to outvote both of them. I therefore don't see how Labour ever get put out of government in Wales no matter how badly they perform.
  • Options
    OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 31,918
    DavidL said:

    Sean_F said:

    ydoethur said:

    AnneJGP said:



    Coal-mining, and nationalism.

    As long as the majority of Welsh voters are content with the performance of the Welsh legislature, surely their position in league tables doesn't really matter? We may think it matters, but we aren't Welsh voters.
    (i) A majority of voters are NOT content with the performance of the Welsh government. In 2016, Labour got 34.6 per cent of the constituency vote. and 31,5 % of the regional vote. Very far from a majority.
    They sank even lower in 2007 - 32% and 29% - but still won 27 seats. That's how tough getting them out of office is. (As the rainbow alternative failed, and Plaid propped them up for four years by which time the Coalition were in government and a target for Morgan to aim at, in 2011 they regained their majority.)

    It's also however why the collapse if they go below that might be cliff-edge rather than the gradual decline we've seen in Scotland.
    But, you've got 15-20% voting for Plaid, whose only objection to Labour is that they are not left wing enough.
    Quite. I expect the next government of Wales to be a Labour/PC coalition. PC will never back the Tories and I don't think it is possible for the Tories to outvote both of them. I therefore don't see how Labour ever get put out of government in Wales no matter how badly they perform.
    Which way are the UKIP voters going to go? Back into the woodwork?
  • Options
    SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 20,578
    DavidL said:

    Sean_F said:

    ydoethur said:

    AnneJGP said:



    Coal-mining, and nationalism.

    As long as the majority of Welsh voters are content with the performance of the Welsh legislature, surely their position in league tables doesn't really matter? We may think it matters, but we aren't Welsh voters.
    (i) A majority of voters are NOT content with the performance of the Welsh government. In 2016, Labour got 34.6 per cent of the constituency vote. and 31,5 % of the regional vote. Very far from a majority.
    They sank even lower in 2007 - 32% and 29% - but still won 27 seats. That's how tough getting them out of office is. (As the rainbow alternative failed, and Plaid propped them up for four years by which time the Coalition were in government and a target for Morgan to aim at, in 2011 they regained their majority.)

    It's also however why the collapse if they go below that might be cliff-edge rather than the gradual decline we've seen in Scotland.
    But, you've got 15-20% voting for Plaid, whose only objection to Labour is that they are not left wing enough.
    Quite. I expect the next government of Wales to be a Labour/PC coalition. PC will never back the Tories and I don't think it is possible for the Tories to outvote both of them. I therefore don't see how Labour ever get put out of government in Wales no matter how badly they perform.
    'Vote Labour, Get Wood'?
  • Options
    YBarddCwscYBarddCwsc Posts: 7,172
    Sean_F said:

    ydoethur said:

    AnneJGP said:



    Coal-mining, and nationalism.

    As long as the majority of Welsh voters are content with the performance of the Welsh legislature, surely their position in league tables doesn't really matter? We may think it matters, but we aren't Welsh voters.
    (i) A majority of voters are NOT content with the performance of the Welsh government. In 2016, Labour got 34.6 per cent of the constituency vote. and 31,5 % of the regional vote. Very far from a majority.
    They sank even lower in 2007 - 32% and 29% - but still won 27 seats. That's how tough getting them out of office is. (As the rainbow alternative failed, and Plaid propped them up for four years by which time the Coalition were in government and a target for Morgan to aim at, in 2011 they regained their majority.)

    It's also however why the collapse if they go below that might be cliff-edge rather than the gradual decline we've seen in Scotland.
    But, you've got 15-20% voting for Plaid, whose only objection to Labour is that they are not left wing enough.
    Plaid Cymru are part of the problem.

    Plaid did best (30.5 % of the vote) in 1999 when they had as their leader a moderate social democrat (Dafydd Wigley). At that point, they were actually stronger than the SNP (who got 28 per cent of the vote in 1999 Scottish Parliamentary elections).

    Plaid Cymru reacted by removing Wigley as leader. They then moved further left, which in terms of an electoral strategy was a huge mistake.

    Plaid Cymru have unfortunately never missed an opportunity to miss an opportunity (as Abba Eban said of the Palestinians).
  • Options

    DavidL said:

    Sean_F said:

    ydoethur said:

    AnneJGP said:



    Coal-mining, and nationalism.

    As long as the majority of Welsh voters are content with the performance of the Welsh legislature, surely their position in league tables doesn't really matter? We may think it matters, but we aren't Welsh voters.
    (i) A majority of voters are NOT content with the performance of the Welsh government. In 2016, Labour got 34.6 per cent of the constituency vote. and 31,5 % of the regional vote. Very far from a majority.
    They sank even lower in 2007 - 32% and 29% - but still won 27 seats. That's how tough getting them out of office is. (As the rainbow alternative failed, and Plaid propped them up for four years by which time the Coalition were in government and a target for Morgan to aim at, in 2011 they regained their majority.)

    It's also however why the collapse if they go below that might be cliff-edge rather than the gradual decline we've seen in Scotland.
    But, you've got 15-20% voting for Plaid, whose only objection to Labour is that they are not left wing enough.
    Quite. I expect the next government of Wales to be a Labour/PC coalition. PC will never back the Tories and I don't think it is possible for the Tories to outvote both of them. I therefore don't see how Labour ever get put out of government in Wales no matter how badly they perform.
    'Vote Labour, Get Wood'?
    You can't see the Wood for the trees
  • Options
    DavidLDavidL Posts: 51,125

    DavidL said:

    Sean_F said:

    ydoethur said:

    AnneJGP said:



    Coal-mining, and nationalism.

    As long as the majority of Welsh voters are content with the performance of the Welsh legislature, surely their position in league tables doesn't really matter? We may think it matters, but we aren't Welsh voters.
    (i) A majority of voters are NOT content with the performance of the Welsh government. In 2016, Labour got 34.6 per cent of the constituency vote. and 31,5 % of the regional vote. Very far from a majority.
    They sank even lower in 2007 - 32% and 29% - but still won 27 seats. That's how tough getting them out of office is. (As the rainbow alternative failed, and Plaid propped them up for four years by which time the Coalition were in government and a target for Morgan to aim at, in 2011 they regained their majority.)

    It's also however why the collapse if they go below that might be cliff-edge rather than the gradual decline we've seen in Scotland.
    But, you've got 15-20% voting for Plaid, whose only objection to Labour is that they are not left wing enough.
    Quite. I expect the next government of Wales to be a Labour/PC coalition. PC will never back the Tories and I don't think it is possible for the Tories to outvote both of them. I therefore don't see how Labour ever get put out of government in Wales no matter how badly they perform.
    Which way are the UKIP voters going to go? Back into the woodwork?
    I don't pretend to know much about the detail of Welsh politics but what we are seeing elsewhere is the UKIP vote splitting into so many sections that it is not having the impact that you might expect. It will be interesting to see how their 160 odd seats go in May. My expectation is that the Tories, Labour and even the Lib Dems will all take some of these seats with no one winning an exceptionally large share.
  • Options
    DavidLDavidL Posts: 51,125

    DavidL said:

    Sean_F said:

    ydoethur said:

    AnneJGP said:



    Coal-mining, and nationalism.

    As long as the majority of Welsh voters are content with the performance of the Welsh legislature, surely their position in league tables doesn't really matter? We may think it matters, but we aren't Welsh voters.
    (i) A majority of voters are NOT content with the performance of the Welsh government. In 2016, Labour got 34.6 per cent of the constituency vote. and 31,5 % of the regional vote. Very far from a majority.
    They sank even lower in 2007 - 32% and 29% - but still won 27 seats. That's how tough getting them out of office is. (As the rainbow alternative failed, and Plaid propped them up for four years by which time the Coalition were in government and a target for Morgan to aim at, in 2011 they regained their majority.)

    It's also however why the collapse if they go below that might be cliff-edge rather than the gradual decline we've seen in Scotland.
    But, you've got 15-20% voting for Plaid, whose only objection to Labour is that they are not left wing enough.
    Quite. I expect the next government of Wales to be a Labour/PC coalition. PC will never back the Tories and I don't think it is possible for the Tories to outvote both of them. I therefore don't see how Labour ever get put out of government in Wales no matter how badly they perform.
    'Vote Labour, Get Wood'?
    They should be so lucky.
  • Options
    OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 31,918

    Sean_F said:

    ydoethur said:

    AnneJGP said:



    Coal-mining, and nationalism.

    As long as the majority of Welsh voters are content with the performance of the Welsh legislature, surely their position in league tables doesn't really matter? We may think it matters, but we aren't Welsh voters.
    (i) A majority of voters are NOT content with the performance of the Welsh government. In 2016, Labour got 34.6 per cent of the constituency vote. and 31,5 % of the regional vote. Very far from a majority.
    They sank even lower in 2007 - 32% and 29% - but still won 27 seats. That's how tough getting them out of office is. (As the rainbow alternative failed, and Plaid propped them up for four years by which time the Coalition were in government and a target for Morgan to aim at, in 2011 they regained their majority.)

    It's also however why the collapse if they go below that might be cliff-edge rather than the gradual decline we've seen in Scotland.
    But, you've got 15-20% voting for Plaid, whose only objection to Labour is that they are not left wing enough.
    Plaid Cymru are part of the problem.

    Plaid did best (30.5 % of the vote) in 1999 when they had as their leader a moderate social democrat (Dafydd Wigley). At that point, they were actually stronger than the SNP (who got 28 per cent of the vote in 1999 Scottish Parliamentary elections).

    Plaid Cymru reacted by removing Wigley as leader. They then moved further left, which in terms of an electoral strategy was a huge mistake.

    Plaid Cymru have unfortunately never missed an opportunity to miss an opportunity (as Abba Eban said of the Palestinians).
    Didn't Wigley resign dur to family problems?
  • Options
    Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 55,266

    FPT, I have taken Peter's tip of £10 on a GE this year at 10/1.

    I will certainly struggle to continue to support May if she caves in on the Customs Union. It goes against the basis of the whole Government's negotiating position for the last 16 months. She must ensure the UK is no longer bound by the Common Commercial Policy or the Common External Tariff.

    I can see her parliamentary position unravelling very quickly if she doesn't because Parliament (be it the HoC and/or the HoL) voting against it would amount to a VoNC, in my opinion.

    I called that earlier on this year*

    If Theresa May keeps us in the customs union I'll do regularly threads saying she's the greatest Tory of her generation, even better than Dave and George.

    The logical end game will be not to offer a referendum on a customs union, but to say in a few years time, well since we're in the customs union we might as well rejoin the single market.

    Rejoining the single market and its restraint on state intervention will look brilliant after 5 years of PM Corbyn.

    *In this thread. http://www2.politicalbetting.com/index.php/archives/2018/02/25/why-i-wont-be-surprised-to-see-a-general-election-or-corbyn-become-prime-minister-this-year/
    That won't be the end game. The end game will be to apply to rejoin the EU.

    The ultras know that if we do leave both the single market and customs union the UK will move on, and there will never be any going back.
  • Options
    YBarddCwscYBarddCwsc Posts: 7,172
    edited April 2018

    Sean_F said:

    ydoethur said:

    AnneJGP said:



    Coal-mining, and nationalism.

    As long as the majority of Welsh voters are content with the performance of the Welsh legislature, surely their position in league tables doesn't really matter? We may think it matters, but we aren't Welsh voters.
    (i) A majority of voters are NOT content with the performance of the Welsh government. In 2016, Labour got 34.6 per cent of the constituency vote. and 31,5 % of the regional vote. Very far from a majority.
    They sank even lower in 2007 - 32% and 29% - but still won 27 seats. That's how tough getting them out of office is. (As the rainbow alternative failed, and Plaid propped them up for four years by which time the Coalition were in government and a target for Morgan to aim at, in 2011 they regained their majority.)

    It's also however why the collapse if they go below that might be cliff-edge rather than the gradual decline we've seen in Scotland.
    But, you've got 15-20% voting for Plaid, whose only objection to Labour is that they are not left wing enough.
    Plaid Cymru are part of the problem.

    Plaid did best (30.5 % of the vote) in 1999 when they had as their leader a moderate social democrat (Dafydd Wigley). At that point, they were actually stronger than the SNP (who got 28 per cent of the vote in 1999 Scottish Parliamentary elections).

    Plaid Cymru reacted by removing Wigley as leader. They then moved further left, which in terms of an electoral strategy was a huge mistake.

    Plaid Cymru have unfortunately never missed an opportunity to miss an opportunity (as Abba Eban said of the Palestinians).
    Didn't Wigley resign dur to family problems?
    Exactly like Carwyn Jones yesterday !

    Wigley was forced out. Just like Carwyn yesterday !
  • Options
    ydoethurydoethur Posts: 67,109
    edited April 2018
    Sean_F said:

    But, you've got 15-20% voting for Plaid, whose only objection to Labour is that they are not left wing enough.

    You are entirely wrong to equate 'Plaid' with 'left wing'. Elin Jones is well to the right of me on many issues, for example. Dafydd Elis Thomas, before his expulsion, was no socialist. Nor were Wigley and Wyn Jones. Leanne Wood is, as is Simon Thomas (a former Green) but they are not representative of the whole.

    The truth is Plaid is a very broad and complex coalition held together by a devotion to the Welsh language, a firm and not unjustified belief that Wales never gets a fair deal within the UK due to its small size and remoteness from London, a feeling that the English patronise and despise them and in some cases simple anti-English xenophobia. Some of these views are contradictory and lead to a lot of infighting.

    There are undoubtedly radicals in Plaid, but also many who consider Theresa May dangerously left-wing on economic matters. One of them once said, quite seriously, that he was in favour of independence because he believed that was the only way Wales could break its poverty cycle by dramatic economic liberalisation. Singapore was his model. Others want full nationalisation of everything. Venezuela was much mentioned by them.

    It's one reason why they are unable to establish themselves as an alternative opposition. It's very hard to put together a programme that will appeal to all the membership - never mind the voters in Blaenau Gwent and the sheep farmers of Meirionnydd. As a result, there is a ceiling to their growth.

    Wood's aim seems to be to replace Labour in the valleys with a radical left wing programme and hope she doesn't lose too many votes in the West to another party. With the Liberal Democrats emasculated and the Conservatives still held in suspicion, she might succeed, but it is a delicate balancing act.

    It is complicated because it is very difficult to imagine an independent Wales as economically viable and that leaves one potential bullet - independence - effectively off the table. The SNP have the huge advantage that for them independence clearly would be possible, so although they also have a disparate membership they can rally round that single standard.
  • Options
    Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 55,266
    FF43 said:

    FPT, I have taken Peter's tip of £10 on a GE this year at 10/1.

    I will certainly struggle to continue to support May if she caves in on the Customs Union. It goes against the basis of the whole Government's negotiating position for the last 16 months. She must ensure the UK is no longer bound by the Common Commercial Policy or the Common External Tariff.

    I can see her parliamentary position unravelling very quickly if she doesn't because Parliament (be it the HoC and/or the HoL) voting against it would amount to a VoNC, in my opinion.

    There's no negotiation. Surely you have realised that by now? It's take it or leave it. We could leave it, we do have a choice, but there are problems with that approach. Firstly the government decided to take it in December, so reversing that decision, which didn't do them any harm, would be disturbing. Not taking it will be very chaotic. In any case leaving it would probably just be taking it, delayed.

    We'll take it.
    No, I don't share your remarkable propensity for sophistry and confirmation bias. Your post is as ridiculously as it is inaccurate.

    There is a negotiation, but May needlessly weakened her own parliamentary position through the election last year.
  • Options
    TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 39,956
    ydoethur said:

    AnneJGP said:



    Coal-mining, and nationalism.

    As long as the majority of Welsh voters are content with the performance of the Welsh legislature, surely their position in league tables doesn't really matter? We may think it matters, but we aren't Welsh voters.
    (i) A majority of voters are NOT content with the performance of the Welsh government. In 2016, Labour got 34.6 per cent of the constituency vote. and 31,5 % of the regional vote. Very far from a majority.
    They sank even lower in 2007 - 32% and 29% - but still won 27 seats. That's how tough getting them out of office is. (As the rainbow alternative failed, and Plaid propped them up for four years by which time the Coalition were in government and a target for Morgan to aim at, in 2011 they regained their majority.)

    It's also however why the collapse if they go below that might be cliff-edge rather than the gradual decline we've seen in Scotland.
    Dunno if going from forty mps to one could be described as a gradual decline.
  • Options
    RoyalBlueRoyalBlue Posts: 3,223

    FPT, I have taken Peter's tip of £10 on a GE this year at 10/1.

    I will certainly struggle to continue to support May if she caves in on the Customs Union. It goes against the basis of the whole Government's negotiating position for the last 16 months. She must ensure the UK is no longer bound by the Common Commercial Policy or the Common External Tariff.

    I can see her parliamentary position unravelling very quickly if she doesn't because Parliament (be it the HoC and/or the HoL) voting against it would amount to a VoNC, in my opinion.

    I called that earlier on this year*

    If Theresa May keeps us in the customs union I'll do regularly threads saying she's the greatest Tory of her generation, even better than Dave and George.

    The logical end game will be not to offer a referendum on a customs union, but to say in a few years time, well since we're in the customs union we might as well rejoin the single market.

    Rejoining the single market and its restraint on state intervention will look brilliant after 5 years of PM Corbyn.

    *In this thread. http://www2.politicalbetting.com/index.php/archives/2018/02/25/why-i-wont-be-surprised-to-see-a-general-election-or-corbyn-become-prime-minister-this-year/
    That won't be the end game. The end game will be to apply to rejoin the EU.

    The ultras know that if we do leave both the single market and customs union the UK will move on, and there will never be any going back.
    The revolution was doomed when the revolutionaries left the ancien regime in power, its functionaries in work, and its institutions unreformed.

    I fear that Brexiteers won the war but will lose the peace, and consequently the war will have been for nothing.
  • Options
    Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 55,266
    RoyalBlue said:

    FPT, I have taken Peter's tip of £10 on a GE this year at 10/1.

    I will certainly struggle to continue to support May if she caves in on the Customs Union. It goes against the basis of the whole Government's negotiating position for the last 16 months. She must ensure the UK is no longer bound by the Common Commercial Policy or the Common External Tariff.

    I can see her parliamentary position unravelling very quickly if she doesn't because Parliament (be it the HoC and/or the HoL) voting against it would amount to a VoNC, in my opinion.

    I called that earlier on this year*

    If Theresa May keeps us in the customs union I'll do regularly threads saying she's the greatest Tory of her generation, even better than Dave and George.

    The logical end game will be not to offer a referendum on a customs union, but to say in a few years time, well since we're in the customs union we might as well rejoin the single market.

    Rejoining the single market and its restraint on state intervention will look brilliant after 5 years of PM Corbyn.

    *In this thread. http://www2.politicalbetting.com/index.php/archives/2018/02/25/why-i-wont-be-surprised-to-see-a-general-election-or-corbyn-become-prime-minister-this-year/
    That won't be the end game. The end game will be to apply to rejoin the EU.

    The ultras know that if we do leave both the single market and customs union the UK will move on, and there will never be any going back.
    The revolution was doomed when the revolutionaries left the ancien regime in power, its functionaries in work, and its institutions unreformed.

    I fear that Brexiteers won the war but will lose the peace, and consequently the war will have been for nothing.
    Who knows?

    A lot of twists and turns to come yet. But, I have been anticipating serious trouble in the Lords for months.
  • Options
    DavidLDavidL Posts: 51,125
    ydoethur said:

    Sean_F said:

    But, you've got 15-20% voting for Plaid, whose only objection to Labour is that they are not left wing enough.

    You are entirely wrong to equate 'Plaid' with 'left wing'. Elin Jones is well to the right of me on many issues, for example. Dafydd Elis Thomas, before his expulsion, was no socialist. Nor were Wigley and Wyn Jones. Leanne Wood is, as is Simon Thomas (a former Green) but they are not representative of the whole.

    The truth is Plaid is a very broad and complex coalition held together by a devotion to the Welsh language, a firm and not unjustified belief that Wales never gets a fair deal within the UK due to its small size and remoteness from London, a feeling that the English patronise and despise them and in some cases simple anti-English xenophobia. Some of these views are contradictory and lead to a lot of infighting.

    There are undoubtedly radicals in Plaid, but also many who consider Theresa May dangerously left-wing on economic matters. One of them once said, quite seriously, that he was in favour of independence because he believed that was the only way Wales could break its poverty cycle by dramatic economic liberalisation. Singapore was his model. Others want full nationalisation of everything. Venezuela was much mentioned by them.

    It's one reason why they are unable to establish themselves as an alternative opposition. It's very hard to put together a programme that will appeal to all the membership - never mind the voters in Blaenau Gwent and the sheep farmers of Meirionnydd. As a result, there is a ceiling to their growth.

    Wood's aim seems to be to replace Labour in the valleys with a radical left wing programme and hope she doesn't lose too many votes in the West to another party. With the Liberal Democrats emasculated and the Conservatives still held in suspicion, she might succeed, but it is a delicate balancing act.

    It is complicated because it is very difficult to imagine an independent Wales as economically viable and that leaves one potential bullet - independence - effectively off the table. The SNP have the huge advantage that for them independence clearly would be possible, so although they also have a disparate membership they can rally round that single standard.
    Interesting. As an outsider I thought that they were more homogeneous and left wing than that. Would you agree that they will always be inclined to favour Labour over the Tories as coalition partners?
  • Options
    RoyalBlueRoyalBlue Posts: 3,223

    RoyalBlue said:

    FPT, I have taken Peter's tip of £10 on a GE this year at 10/1.

    I will certainly struggle to continue to support May if she caves in on the Customs Union. It goes against the basis of the whole Government's negotiating position for the last 16 months. She must ensure the UK is no longer bound by the Common Commercial Policy or the Common External Tariff.

    I can see her parliamentary position unravelling very quickly if she doesn't because Parliament (be it the HoC and/or the HoL) voting against it would amount to a VoNC, in my opinion.

    I called that earlier on this year*

    If Theresa May keeps us in the customs union I'll do regularly threads saying she's the greatest Tory of her generation, even better than Dave and George.

    The logical end game will be not to offer a referendum on a customs union, but to say in a few years time, well since we're in the customs union we might as well rejoin the single market.

    Rejoining the single market and its restraint on state intervention will look brilliant after 5 years of PM Corbyn.

    *In this thread. http://www2.politicalbetting.com/index.php/archives/2018/02/25/why-i-wont-be-surprised-to-see-a-general-election-or-corbyn-become-prime-minister-this-year/
    That won't be the end game. The end game will be to apply to rejoin the EU.

    The ultras know that if we do leave both the single market and customs union the UK will move on, and there will never be any going back.
    The revolution was doomed when the revolutionaries left the ancien regime in power, its functionaries in work, and its institutions unreformed.

    I fear that Brexiteers won the war but will lose the peace, and consequently the war will have been for nothing.
    Who knows?

    A lot of twists and turns to come yet. But, I have been anticipating serious trouble in the Lords for months.
    I don’t think the Lords matters much when there is no Commons majority for the Government’s negotiating stance.

    Are you still 100% in favour of Brexit if the government concedes a customs union that means someone else decides our trade policy?

    I ask because I’m no longer sure myself.
  • Options
    notmenotme Posts: 3,293
    DavidL said:

    notme said:

    FPT, I have taken Peter's tip of £10 on a GE this year at 10/1.

    I will certainly struggle to continue to support May if she caves in on the Customs Union. It goes against the basis of the whole Government's negotiating position for the last 16 months. She must ensure the UK is no longer bound by the Common Commercial Policy or the Common External Tariff.

    I can see her parliamentary position unravelling very quickly if she doesn't because Parliament (be it the HoC and/or the HoL) voting against it would amount to a VoNC, in my opinion.

    I called that earlier on this year*

    If Theresa May keeps us in the customs union I'll do regularly threads saying she's the greatest Tory of her generation, even better than Dave and George.

    The logical end game will be not to offer a referendum on a customs union, but to say in a few years time, well since we're in the customs union we might as well rejoin the single market.

    Rejoining the single market and its restraint on state intervention will look brilliant after 5 years of PM Corbyn.

    *In this thread. http://www2.politicalbetting.com/index.php/archives/2018/02/25/why-i-wont-be-surprised-to-see-a-general-election-or-corbyn-become-prime-minister-this-year/
    My only regret over voting leave. Corbyn outside of the single market could really mess things up with the economy.
    If Corbyn becomes PM whether we are in or out of the Single Market will be the least of our problems.
    Mass nationalisation is just not possible within the single market. If a government wants to run a public service/utility etc that’s fine. But the public body has to bid for the rights/franchise/license like anyone else. It has to wash it’s own face. Government subsidy won’t exist to keep an inefficient public company in business, the subsidy will be separate to the franchise agreement and will be open to all competitors.

    Corbyn can plan to renationalise the railways of he wants to, but he better make sure that the government backed companies bidding for the franchises put in a better offer than any other company from across the EU. Or it’s off to the Court of Justice for you.
  • Options
    Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 55,266
    ydoethur said:

    Sean_F said:

    But, you've got 15-20% voting for Plaid, whose only objection to Labour is that they are not left wing enough.

    You are entirely wrong to equate 'Plaid' with 'left wing'. Elin Jones is well to the right of me on many issues, for example. Dafydd Elis Thomas, before his expulsion, was no socialist. Nor were Wigley and Wyn Jones. Leanne Wood is, as is Simon Thomas (a former Green) but they are not representative of the whole.

    The truth is Plaid is a very broad and complex coalition held together by a devotion to the Welsh language, a firm and not unjustified belief that Wales never gets a fair deal within the UK due to its small size and remoteness from London, a feeling that the English patronise and despise them and in some cases simple anti-English xenophobia. Some of these views are contradictory and lead to a lot of infighting.

    There are undoubtedly radicals in Plaid, but also many who consider Theresa May dangerously left-wing on economic matters. One of them once said, quite seriously, that he was in favour of independence because he believed that was the only way Wales could break its poverty cycle by dramatic economic liberalisation. Singapore was his model. Others want full nationalisation of everything. Venezuela was much mentioned by them.

    It's one reason why they are unable to establish themselves as an alternative opposition. It's very hard to put together a programme that will appeal to all the membership - never mind the voters in Blaenau Gwent and the sheep farmers of Meirionnydd. As a result, there is a ceiling to their growth.

    Wood's aim seems to be to replace Labour in the valleys with a radical left wing programme and hope she doesn't lose too many votes in the West to another party. With the Liberal Democrats emasculated and the Conservatives still held in suspicion, she might succeed, but it is a delicate balancing act.

    It is complicated because it is very difficult to imagine an independent Wales as economically viable and that leaves one potential bullet - independence - effectively off the table. The SNP have the huge advantage that for them independence clearly would be possible, so although they also have a disparate membership they can rally round that single standard.
    Wales could theoretically be independent in the Isle of Man sense, i'm sure, but I don't think that's a proposition that would command much support.
  • Options
    RoyalBlueRoyalBlue Posts: 3,223
    DavidL said:

    ydoethur said:

    Sean_F said:

    But, you've got 15-20% voting for Plaid, whose only objection to Labour is that they are not left wing enough.

    You are entirely wrong to equate 'Plaid' with 'left wing'. Elin Jones is well to the right of me on many issues, for example. Dafydd Elis Thomas, before his expulsion, was no socialist. Nor were Wigley and Wyn Jones. Leanne Wood is, as is Simon Thomas (a former Green) but they are not representative of the whole.

    The truth is Plaid is a very broad and complex coalition held together by a devotion to the Welsh language, a firm and not unjustified belief that Wales never gets a fair deal within the UK due to its small size and remoteness from London, a feeling that the English patronise and despise them and in some cases simple anti-English xenophobia. Some of these views are contradictory and lead to a lot of infighting.

    There are undoubtedly radicals in Plaid, but also many who consider Theresa May dangerously left-wing on economic matters. One of them once said, quite seriously, that he was in favour of independence because he believed that was the only way Wales could break its poverty cycle by dramatic economic liberalisation. Singapore was his model. Others want full nationalisation of everything. Venezuela was much mentioned by them.

    It's one reason why they are unable to establish themselves as an alternative opposition. It's very hard to put together a programme that will appeal to all the membership - never mind the voters in Blaenau Gwent and the sheep farmers of Meirionnydd. As a result, there is a ceiling to their growth.

    Wood's aim seems to be to replace Labour in the valleys with a radical left wing programme and hope she doesn't lose too many votes in the West to another party. With the Liberal Democrats emasculated and the Conservatives still held in suspicion, she might succeed, but it is a delicate balancing act.

    It is complicated because it is very difficult to imagine an independent Wales as economically viable and that leaves one potential bullet - independence - effectively off the table. The SNP have the huge advantage that for them independence clearly would be possible, so although they also have a disparate membership they can rally round that single standard.
    Interesting. As an outsider I thought that they were more homogeneous and left wing than that. Would you agree that they will always be inclined to favour Labour over the Tories as coalition partners?
    Leanne Wood is leading Plaid nowhere. I am baffled why the PC membership selected someone as leader who can’t even speak the language properly.

    Then again, that’s hardly uncommon in the south (ducks for cover)...
  • Options
    Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 55,266
    DavidL said:

    Sean_F said:

    ydoethur said:

    AnneJGP said:



    Coal-mining, and nationalism.

    As long as the majority of Welsh voters are content with the performance of the Welsh legislature, surely their position in league tables doesn't really matter? We may think it matters, but we aren't Welsh voters.
    (i) A majority of voters are NOT content with the performance of the Welsh government. In 2016, Labour got 34.6 per cent of the constituency vote. and 31,5 % of the regional vote. Very far from a majority.
    They sank even lower in 2007 - 32% and 29% - but still won 27 seats. That's how tough getting them out of office is. (As the rainbow alternative failed, and Plaid propped them up for four years by which time the Coalition were in government and a target for Morgan to aim at, in 2011 they regained their majority.)

    It's also however why the collapse if they go below that might be cliff-edge rather than the gradual decline we've seen in Scotland.
    But, you've got 15-20% voting for Plaid, whose only objection to Labour is that they are not left wing enough.
    Quite. I expect the next government of Wales to be a Labour/PC coalition. PC will never back the Tories and I don't think it is possible for the Tories to outvote both of them. I therefore don't see how Labour ever get put out of government in Wales no matter how badly they perform.
    It's crazy but, if the Welsh hated it that much, they would vote accordingly.
  • Options
    ydoethurydoethur Posts: 67,109
    DavidL said:

    Interesting. As an outsider I thought that they were more homogeneous and left wing than that. Would you agree that they will always be inclined to favour Labour over the Tories as coalition partners?

    In a sense, that's the wrong question. For Wood, yes. If her Valleys strategy comes off, yes. If the west gain the ascendancy, they might be willing to consider a C+S for the Tories if there was no alternative government available although I doubt if it would go further than that.

    That is why it seems more likely that any new party in power is presaged on either a Liberal Democrat revival or the growth of another meaningful fourth party.

    @Theuniondivvie yes, I agree 2015 may have been considered a trifle precipitous for Labour. I was however thinking of their sustained long-term decline at Holyrood.
  • Options
    tysontyson Posts: 6,049
    RoyalBlue said:

    FPT, I have taken Peter's tip of £10 on a GE this year at 10/1.

    I will certainly struggle to continue to support May if she caves in on the Customs Union. It goes against the basis of the whole Government's negotiating position for the last 16 months. She must ensure the UK is no longer bound by the Common Commercial Policy or the Common External Tariff.

    I can see her parliamentary position unravelling very quickly if she doesn't because Parliament (be it the HoC and/or the HoL) voting against it would amount to a VoNC, in my opinion.

    I called that earlier on this year*

    If Theresa May keeps us in the customs union I'll do regularly threads saying she's the greatest Tory of her generation, even better than Dave and George.

    The logical end game will be not to offer a referendum on a customs union, but to say in a few years time, well since we're in the customs union we might as well rejoin the single market.

    Rejoining the single market and its restraint on state intervention will look brilliant after 5 years of PM Corbyn.

    *In this thread. http://www2.politicalbetting.com/index.php/archives/2018/02/25/why-i-wont-be-surprised-to-see-a-general-election-or-corbyn-become-prime-minister-this-year/
    That won't be the end game. The end game will be to apply to rejoin the EU.

    The ultras know that if we do leave both the single market and customs union the UK will move on, and there will never be any going back.
    The revolution was doomed when the revolutionaries left the ancien regime in power, its functionaries in work, and its institutions unreformed.

    I fear that Brexiteers won the war but will lose the peace, and consequently the war will have been for nothing.

    What was the point of it all if there is a blocking majority in both houses? It shouldn't come as a great surprise to those Brexiters with some knowledge of how our Parliamentary democracy works.
This discussion has been closed.