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politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » Polling analysis: Corbyn is a liability to Labour while TMay h

SystemSystem Posts: 11,019
edited April 2018 in General

imagepoliticalbetting.com » Blog Archive » Polling analysis: Corbyn is a liability to Labour while TMay has returned to being an asset to the Tories

The YouGov favourability trackers are just about the only polling where we can compare leaders with their parties on the same basis. The same question is asked in exactly the same form to the same sample whether people have a favourable or unfavourable opinion of CON/LAB/TMay/Corbyn.

Read the full story here


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Comments

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    rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 58,209
    First
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    rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 58,209
    But surely, he is the Absolute Boy?
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    MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 50,115
    Quick - call an election!
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    FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 76,285
    What a leader....

    Jonathan Goldstein, of the Jewish Leadership Council, said Mr Corbyn "engages in conversation until you ask him to do something".

    Mr Goldstein told BBC Radio 4's Today programme: "When you ask him to do something he has this habit of staring and just shrugging."
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    rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 58,209

    What a leader....

    Jonathan Goldstein, of the Jewish Leadership Council, said Mr Corbyn "engages in conversation until you ask him to do something".

    Mr Goldstein told BBC Radio 4's Today programme: "When you ask him to do something he has this habit of staring and just shrugging."

    And Labour are asking us to put him in Downing Street???
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    FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 76,285

    twitter.com/LOS_Fisher/status/989070603243188231

    No wonder so many of the Labour Party are into Alex jones style conspiracy theories.
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    rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 58,209

    twitter.com/LOS_Fisher/status/989070603243188231

    No wonder so many of the Labour Party are into Alex jones style conspiracy theories.
    Can you get black tin foil? That hat looks like it might be made of the stuff.
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    rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 58,209
    edited April 2018
    :lol: Do not click while drinking coffee!!

    https://twitter.com/wallaceme/status/989072866128945153
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    FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 76,285
    That requires a warning....do not click link while drinking coffee as it might end up all over your monitor...
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    BannedInParisBannedInParis Posts: 2,191
    Jeremy Corbyn is bad at day to day politics. This should not be a surprise and will continue.

    Probably until the next time he starts promising the moon on a stick again, sadly.
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    rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 58,209

    That requires a warning....do not click link while drinking coffee as it might end up all over your monitor...
    Done!! :lol:
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    FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 76,285

    Local election news:
    twitter.com/GibsonPierceUK/status/988032974854807552

    Just joking he says...honest...
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    FoxyFoxy Posts: 44,605

    What a leader....

    Jonathan Goldstein, of the Jewish Leadership Council, said Mr Corbyn "engages in conversation until you ask him to do something".

    Mr Goldstein told BBC Radio 4's Today programme: "When you ask him to do something he has this habit of staring and just shrugging."

    And Labour are asking us to put him in Downing Street???
    There is a lot to be said for agovernment that does very little!
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    FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 76,285
    Foxy said:

    What a leader....

    Jonathan Goldstein, of the Jewish Leadership Council, said Mr Corbyn "engages in conversation until you ask him to do something".

    Mr Goldstein told BBC Radio 4's Today programme: "When you ask him to do something he has this habit of staring and just shrugging."

    And Labour are asking us to put him in Downing Street???
    There is a lot to be said for agovernment that does very little!
    I don't think most of the cult are backing Jezza so he can do very little...they want revolution.
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    RogerRoger Posts: 18,891

    What a leader....

    Jonathan Goldstein, of the Jewish Leadership Council, said Mr Corbyn "engages in conversation until you ask him to do something".

    Mr Goldstein told BBC Radio 4's Today programme: "When you ask him to do something he has this habit of staring and just shrugging."

    Do you think if I called Jonathan Goldstein of 'the Jewish leadership council' (which no one has ever heard of) a pompous self important mendatious arrogant wanker I could be accused of anti-Semitism?
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    FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 76,285
    Roger said:

    What a leader....

    Jonathan Goldstein, of the Jewish Leadership Council, said Mr Corbyn "engages in conversation until you ask him to do something".

    Mr Goldstein told BBC Radio 4's Today programme: "When you ask him to do something he has this habit of staring and just shrugging."

    Do you think if I called Jonathan Goldstein of 'the Jewish leadership council' (which no one has ever heard of) a pompous self important mendatious arrogant wanker I could be accused of anti-Semitism?
    Takes one to know one.
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    rkrkrkrkrkrk Posts: 7,908
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    Ishmael_ZIshmael_Z Posts: 8,981
    Roger said:

    What a leader....

    Jonathan Goldstein, of the Jewish Leadership Council, said Mr Corbyn "engages in conversation until you ask him to do something".

    Mr Goldstein told BBC Radio 4's Today programme: "When you ask him to do something he has this habit of staring and just shrugging."

    Do you think if I called Jonathan Goldstein of 'the Jewish leadership council' (which no one has ever heard of) a pompous self important mendatious arrogant wanker I could be accused of anti-Semitism?
    Best to call him a liar if you can't spell "mendacious." What lies has he told?
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    FoxyFoxy Posts: 44,605

    Foxy said:

    What a leader....

    Jonathan Goldstein, of the Jewish Leadership Council, said Mr Corbyn "engages in conversation until you ask him to do something".

    Mr Goldstein told BBC Radio 4's Today programme: "When you ask him to do something he has this habit of staring and just shrugging."

    And Labour are asking us to put him in Downing Street???
    There is a lot to be said for agovernment that does very little!
    I don't think most of the cult are backing Jezza so he can do very little...they want revolution.
    I think they want change, revolution implies violence.

    Jezzas limiting factor in government would be his organisational incompetence, he simply would not get that much done.
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    Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 60,983
    Dr. Foxy, political extremists are not known for being shy of violence, or threats thereof (as we've heard recently).
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    PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 75,926
    rkrkrk said:
    If it is like the roads near me, this 'pot' seems to be a myth anyway despite the amazingly high council tax.
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    SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 20,608
    The graph in the header is the opposite of what you might expect from government and opposition: Opposition doing well before the election campaign, ultimate winner surges ahead in the run up to polling day, bubble bursts, government becomes unpopular and opposition get a boost.

    Using everything I learnt studying PPE, my informed insight is:

    "WTF is going on?"
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    FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 76,285
    Has Roger and Ken Loach ever been seen in the same room? They appear to have the identical opinion regarding the problem of antisemitism in the Labour Party.
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    sladeslade Posts: 1,932
    rkrkrk said:
    In my experience this is not uncommon. It depends on whether the decisions are made by impartial officers using technical criteria or are made by local councillors at authority level or in devolved areas.
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    RogerRoger Posts: 18,891
    Ishmael_Z said:

    Roger said:

    What a leader....

    Jonathan Goldstein, of the Jewish Leadership Council, said Mr Corbyn "engages in conversation until you ask him to do something".

    Mr Goldstein told BBC Radio 4's Today programme: "When you ask him to do something he has this habit of staring and just shrugging."

    Do you think if I called Jonathan Goldstein of 'the Jewish leadership council' (which no one has ever heard of) a pompous self important mendatious arrogant wanker I could be accused of anti-Semitism?
    Best to call him a liar if you can't spell "mendacious." What lies has he told?
    Claiming to represent people when he doesn't. I would be surprised if 'The Jewish Leadership Council' is known to 1% of British Jews let alone accept him/them as their representative.
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    GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 20,847
    Am I alone in thinking that Labour (and Corbyn) have an anti-Semitism problem *and* that the issue is being exploited by anti-Corbynites to discredit and hopefully despise him?
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    David_EvershedDavid_Evershed Posts: 6,506
    Pulpstar said:

    rkrkrk said:
    If it is like the roads near me, this 'pot' seems to be a myth anyway despite the amazingly high council tax.
    The councils responsible for local roads (ie non trunk roads) are also responsible for adult and child social care which is mandatory. In our area the social care takes over 60% of the council tax take and is projected to rise to 80%.

    Whilst central government is proposing to spend billions on a new Oxford to Cambridge 'Expressway' road (as well as a new Ox/Cam railway line) our local roads are falling apart.

    Our local roads will deteriorate even more once the construction traffic for HS2 and a series of other projects reach their peak. Buckinghamshire is worse than a third world country for local roads.
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    FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 76,285
    Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    What a leader....

    Jonathan Goldstein, of the Jewish Leadership Council, said Mr Corbyn "engages in conversation until you ask him to do something".

    Mr Goldstein told BBC Radio 4's Today programme: "When you ask him to do something he has this habit of staring and just shrugging."

    And Labour are asking us to put him in Downing Street???
    There is a lot to be said for agovernment that does very little!
    I don't think most of the cult are backing Jezza so he can do very little...they want revolution.
    I think they want change, revolution implies violence.

    Jezzas limiting factor in government would be his organisational incompetence, he simply would not get that much done.
    It is why McDonnell is far more dangerous than Jezza. He isn't a moron, he is even more extremist in his views (but willing to say whatever people think he wants them to hear in public) and is very comfortable associating with those willing to use violence to meet their political goals.
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    NigelbNigelb Posts: 62,584
    Roger said:

    Ishmael_Z said:

    Roger said:

    What a leader....

    Jonathan Goldstein, of the Jewish Leadership Council, said Mr Corbyn "engages in conversation until you ask him to do something".

    Mr Goldstein told BBC Radio 4's Today programme: "When you ask him to do something he has this habit of staring and just shrugging."

    Do you think if I called Jonathan Goldstein of 'the Jewish leadership council' (which no one has ever heard of) a pompous self important mendatious arrogant wanker I could be accused of anti-Semitism?
    Best to call him a liar if you can't spell "mendacious." What lies has he told?
    Claiming to represent people when he doesn't. I would be surprised if 'The Jewish Leadership Council' is known to 1% of British Jews let alone accept him/them as their representative.
    I suspect, looking at the list of member organisations, a few more than that.
    https://www.thejlc.org/members

    But would be happy to see the detail of your analysis.
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    OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 31,979
    edited April 2018
    slade said:

    rkrkrk said:
    In my experience this is not uncommon. It depends on whether the decisions are made by impartial officers using technical criteria or are made by local councillors at authority level or in devolved areas.
    At one time I lived next door to a senior Tory member of the local (usually Tory-dominated) council.

    We never had potholes on our road and the verges were mown as necessary.

    Then she moved away and things changed

    Edit. Commas or brackets. Not both!!!!!!
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    David_EvershedDavid_Evershed Posts: 6,506
    slade said:

    rkrkrk said:
    In my experience this is not uncommon. It depends on whether the decisions are made by impartial officers using technical criteria or are made by local councillors at authority level or in devolved areas.
    It is up to councillors to decide priorities but providing minimum levels of adult and child social care is mandated by central government.
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    FoxyFoxy Posts: 44,605

    Dr. Foxy, political extremists are not known for being shy of violence, or threats thereof (as we've heard recently).

    Has Corbyn ever advocated violent revolution in England?

    My understanding is that he is an active extra-parlimentary campaigner, but sees this as a way of advocating democratic change.
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    ElliotElliot Posts: 1,516
    rkrkrk said:
    This is the Corbynite mentality. Everyone opposed to you is an enemy that deserves whatever you can throw at them.
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    FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 76,285
    edited April 2018
    Foxy said:

    Dr. Foxy, political extremists are not known for being shy of violence, or threats thereof (as we've heard recently).

    Has Corbyn ever advocated violent revolution in England?

    My understanding is that he is an active extra-parlimentary campaigner, but sees this as a way of advocating democratic change.
    Nobody said he did, the comment was about the followers. At the very least they want and expect radical change.
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    RogerRoger Posts: 18,891

    Has Roger and Ken Loach ever been seen in the same room? They appear to have the identical opinion regarding the problem of antisemitism in the Labour Party.

    It's a struggle for right wingers to understand concepts of natural justice and democracy. While aimlessly shouting 'anti-Semite' you lose sight of people's rights.

    I heard an elderly Jewish woman yesterday with an east European accent complain that the labour Party had just suspended a Jewish Israeli professor because he spoke out against Zionism.

    Thanks to the likes of Guido and his disciples this is what we've been reducd to. It's either malevolence or ignorance and I'm not really sure which
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    OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 31,979
    Elliot said:

    rkrkrk said:
    This is the Corbynite mentality. Everyone opposed to you is an enemy that deserves whatever you can throw at them.
    How do you know the Leader of Rochdale Council is a Corbynite?
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    FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 76,285
    edited April 2018
    Roger said:

    Has Roger and Ken Loach ever been seen in the same room? They appear to have the identical opinion regarding the problem of antisemitism in the Labour Party.

    It's a struggle for right wingers to understand concepts of natural justice and democracy. While aimlessly shouting 'anti-Semite' you lose sight of people's rights.

    I heard an elderly Jewish woman yesterday with an east European accent complain that the labour Party had just suspended a Jewish Israeli professor because he spoke out against Zionism.

    Thanks to the likes of Guido and his disciples this is what we've been reducd to. It's either malevolence or ignorance and I'm not really sure which
    Ok Rog...no problem with antisemitism in the Labour Party. All these uppty Jewish community representatives are just talking shite, we get it.

    Now as I remember it, you were quite happy to abuse the mother of a dead solider not that many years ago. That is your moral compass, so be it.
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    FoxyFoxy Posts: 44,605

    Am I alone in thinking that Labour (and Corbyn) have an anti-Semitism problem *and* that the issue is being exploited by anti-Corbynites to discredit and hopefully despise him?

    That is my opinion too.

    I also note that Left wing activists are genuinely suspicious of expulsions and suspensions as a way of maintaining internal party discipline, as they have often been used in the past to force a centrist agenda on the party. Activists are also often skilled barrack room lawyers and adept at spinning out procedures. It is important that the rules and procedures are followed to the letter, if expulsions are not to wind up with M'learned friends.

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    FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 76,285
    edited April 2018
    Foxy said:

    Am I alone in thinking that Labour (and Corbyn) have an anti-Semitism problem *and* that the issue is being exploited by anti-Corbynites to discredit and hopefully despise him?

    That is my opinion too.

    I also note that Left wing activists are genuinely suspicious of expulsions and suspensions as a way of maintaining internal party discipline, as they have often been used in the past to force a centrist agenda on the party. Activists are also often skilled barrack room lawyers and adept at spinning out procedures. It is important that the rules and procedures are followed to the letter, if expulsions are not to wind up with M'learned friends.

    2 years for Red Ken though....2 friggin years....when everything he has said is on record.
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    FoxyFoxy Posts: 44,605

    Foxy said:

    Dr. Foxy, political extremists are not known for being shy of violence, or threats thereof (as we've heard recently).

    Has Corbyn ever advocated violent revolution in England?

    My understanding is that he is an active extra-parlimentary campaigner, but sees this as a way of advocating democratic change.
    Nobody said he did, the comment was about the followers. At the very least they want and expect radical change.
    Of course, but radical DEMOCRATIC change, not violent revolution, and aren't we all in favour of the will of the people nowadays, no matter how stupid and self-defeating that will is?
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    FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 76,285
    edited April 2018
    Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    Dr. Foxy, political extremists are not known for being shy of violence, or threats thereof (as we've heard recently).

    Has Corbyn ever advocated violent revolution in England?

    My understanding is that he is an active extra-parlimentary campaigner, but sees this as a way of advocating democratic change.
    Nobody said he did, the comment was about the followers. At the very least they want and expect radical change.
    Of course, but radical DEMOCRATIC change, not violent revolution, and aren't we all in favour of the will of the people nowadays, no matter how stupid and self-defeating that will is?
    Lots of the cult want radical change one way or another. They come from much more extremist groups and only joined the maomentum cause because the see Jezza as a chance to achieve their goals.
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    RogerRoger Posts: 18,891
    Nigelb said:

    Roger said:

    Ishmael_Z said:

    Roger said:

    What a leader....

    Jonathan Goldstein, of the Jewish Leadership Council, said Mr Corbyn "engages in conversation until you ask him to do something".

    Mr Goldstein told BBC Radio 4's Today programme: "When you ask him to do something he has this habit of staring and just shrugging."

    Do you think if I called Jonathan Goldstein of 'the Jewish leadership council' (which no one has ever heard of) a pompous self important mendatious arrogant wanker I could be accused of anti-Semitism?
    Best to call him a liar if you can't spell "mendacious." What lies has he told?
    Claiming to represent people when he doesn't. I would be surprised if 'The Jewish Leadership Council' is known to 1% of British Jews let alone accept him/them as their representative.
    I suspect, looking at the list of member organisations, a few more than that.
    https://www.thejlc.org/members

    But would be happy to see the detail of your analysis.
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    FoxyFoxy Posts: 44,605

    Foxy said:

    Am I alone in thinking that Labour (and Corbyn) have an anti-Semitism problem *and* that the issue is being exploited by anti-Corbynites to discredit and hopefully despise him?

    That is my opinion too.

    I also note that Left wing activists are genuinely suspicious of expulsions and suspensions as a way of maintaining internal party discipline, as they have often been used in the past to force a centrist agenda on the party. Activists are also often skilled barrack room lawyers and adept at spinning out procedures. It is important that the rules and procedures are followed to the letter, if expulsions are not to wind up with M'learned friends.

    2 years for Red Ken though....2 friggin years....when everything he has said is on record.
    Ken is an interesting case in point, having been expelled in the past for running against an imposed New Labour Candidate as Mayor of London, and committing the crime of winning.
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    Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 60,289
    edited April 2018
    All kicking off on Sky outside Marc Wadsworth hearing. This is a cancer in labour - just horrible

    And Chris Williamson along to add his support to Wadsworth
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    FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 76,285
    edited April 2018
    Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    Am I alone in thinking that Labour (and Corbyn) have an anti-Semitism problem *and* that the issue is being exploited by anti-Corbynites to discredit and hopefully despise him?

    That is my opinion too.

    I also note that Left wing activists are genuinely suspicious of expulsions and suspensions as a way of maintaining internal party discipline, as they have often been used in the past to force a centrist agenda on the party. Activists are also often skilled barrack room lawyers and adept at spinning out procedures. It is important that the rules and procedures are followed to the letter, if expulsions are not to wind up with M'learned friends.

    2 years for Red Ken though....2 friggin years....when everything he has said is on record.
    Ken is an interesting case in point, having been expelled in the past for running against an imposed New Labour Candidate as Mayor of London, and committing the crime of winning.
    That is irrelevant to the present. We all know if he wasn't Jezza's mate this wouldn't have been dragged out for 2 years. Lesser minion were chucked under the bus much more quickly and have since been allowed to quietly return.
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    Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 60,983
    Dr. Foxy, I was AFK just now, but Mr. Urquhart's interpretation was correct.
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    FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 76,285

    All kicking off on Sky outside Marc Wadsworth hearing. This is a cancer in labour - just horrible

    What are you talking about, Roger tells us there is no such thing, just uppty Jews that don't represent anybody whinging.
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    David_EvershedDavid_Evershed Posts: 6,506

    Am I alone in thinking that Labour (and Corbyn) have an anti-Semitism problem *and* that the issue is being exploited by anti-Corbynites to discredit and hopefully despise him?


    That Corbyn is being discredited is entirely down to Corbyn.

    If he had taken decisive action against anti-semitism in the Labour Party then he could have turned it to his advantage. He chose not to do so.
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    AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 30,340
    Jeremy Corbyn has failed his Henry V moment. John McDonnell would have had no qualms in saying "I know thee not, person of unassumed gender and age" to former comrades whose anti-Semitism was dragging him and the party down. Jeremy Corbyn doesn't have the guts.
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    All kicking off on Sky outside Marc Wadsworth hearing. This is a cancer in labour - just horrible

    What are you talking about, Roger tells us there is no such thing, just uppty Jews that don't represent anybody whinging.
    It is a mess
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    FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 76,285

    Jeremy Corbyn has failed his Henry V moment. John McDonnell would have had no qualms in saying "I know thee not, person of unassumed gender and age" to former comrades whose anti-Semitism was dragging him and the party down. Jeremy Corbyn doesn't have the guts.

    I am 100% sure McDonnell would have thrown them all under the bus immediately....then when elected PM allowed them back in.
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    RogerRoger Posts: 18,891

    Foxy said:

    Am I alone in thinking that Labour (and Corbyn) have an anti-Semitism problem *and* that the issue is being exploited by anti-Corbynites to discredit and hopefully despise him?

    That is my opinion too.

    I also note that Left wing activists are genuinely suspicious of expulsions and suspensions as a way of maintaining internal party discipline, as they have often been used in the past to force a centrist agenda on the party. Activists are also often skilled barrack room lawyers and adept at spinning out procedures. It is important that the rules and procedures are followed to the letter, if expulsions are not to wind up with M'learned friends.

    2 years for Red Ken though....2 friggin years....when everything he has said is on record.
    Which of his comments did you find the most offensive?
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    Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 60,983
    Mr. Meeks, Corbyn not being as good as Henry V might be a rare moment of PB unanimity :D
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    TheWhiteRabbitTheWhiteRabbit Posts: 12,388

    Jeremy Corbyn has failed his Henry V moment. John McDonnell would have had no qualms in saying "I know thee not, person of unassumed gender and age" to former comrades whose anti-Semitism was dragging him and the party down. Jeremy Corbyn doesn't have the guts.

    I am 100% sure McDonnell would have thrown them all under the bus immediately....then when elected PM allowed them back in.
    On the general point I am surprised Corbyn does not do more of "not in my name".
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    GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 20,847

    Jeremy Corbyn has failed his Henry V moment. John McDonnell would have had no qualms in saying "I know thee not, person of unassumed gender and age" to former comrades whose anti-Semitism was dragging him and the party down. Jeremy Corbyn doesn't have the guts.

    Nice analogy.
    But comparing Falstaff to some anti-Semitic tossbag makes me feel queasy this close to St George’s day.

    PS ‘Twas Henry IV
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    Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 55,328

    Am I alone in thinking that Labour (and Corbyn) have an anti-Semitism problem *and* that the issue is being exploited by anti-Corbynites to discredit and hopefully despise him?

    No. Of course that’s what is happening. That’s politics.
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    TheWhiteRabbitTheWhiteRabbit Posts: 12,388

    Jeremy Corbyn has failed his Henry V moment. John McDonnell would have had no qualms in saying "I know thee not, person of unassumed gender and age" to former comrades whose anti-Semitism was dragging him and the party down. Jeremy Corbyn doesn't have the guts.

    Nice analogy.
    But comparing Falstaff to some anti-Semitic tossbag makes me feel queasy this close to St George’s day.

    PS ‘Twas Henry IV
    Isn't the speaker Henry V even though it's in Henry IV... perhaps I am misremembering
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    AlistairAlistair Posts: 23,670
    edited April 2018
    rkrkrk said:
    Just copying the Tories in who only fixed the Police Scotland VAT anomaly when a sufficient number of Scottish Tory MPs were elected.
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    jonny83jonny83 Posts: 1,261

    Am I alone in thinking that Labour (and Corbyn) have an anti-Semitism problem *and* that the issue is being exploited by anti-Corbynites to discredit and hopefully despise him?

    They see an opening and it's understandable they are trying to exploit it, Corbyn only has the base, the majority of MP's clearly want him out.

    But where there is smoke there is fire and this issue won't go away because Corbyn hasn't dealt with it. He won't deal with it and it's pretty obvious why, because of the perception that Israel and its actions are intertwined with Judaism as a whole by the hard left. They are clearly anti Israel and anti the Zionism movement (especially the more harder interpretations and beliefs of it) and moderate Jews in this country are bearing the brunt of it even though a lot of them do not support or condone Israel and its actions.
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    Tissue_PriceTissue_Price Posts: 9,039
    I found this YouTube video about how the statue of Millicent Fawcett was made very interesting. Gillian Wearing did a great job; public art's never easy.
    https://twitter.com/MayorofLondon/status/989084432891105281
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    GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 20,847
    edited April 2018

    Am I alone in thinking that Labour (and Corbyn) have an anti-Semitism problem *and* that the issue is being exploited by anti-Corbynites to discredit and hopefully despise him?


    That Corbyn is being discredited is entirely down to Corbyn.

    If he had taken decisive action against anti-semitism in the Labour Party then he could have turned it to his advantage. He chose not to do so.
    Oh I agree.
    But there’s an aspect to this which is more interested in damaging Corbyn than tackling anti-Semitism.

    The nervous nancy in me worries about “anti-Semitic inflation”. That we risk devaluing real anti-Semitism in our haste to damn the Corbynistas for crimes both cardinal and petty.
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    David_EvershedDavid_Evershed Posts: 6,506

    :lol: Do not click while drinking coffee!!

    https://twitter.com/wallaceme/status/989072866128945153

    Who knew the witch issue was so contentious.

    One source says:

    "Many people do still use “witch” to mean “someone who worships the Devil and/or evil and who engages in gratuitous malevolence.” Present-day Witches generally feel that such a definition of “witch” results merely from Christian politics and propaganda. Pagan Witches regard Satanist witches as Christian heretics and not Pagan at all."

    Another source has definitions including both:

    - an ugly or unpleasant woman.
    - a girl or woman who is bewitchingly attractive


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    GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 20,847

    Jeremy Corbyn has failed his Henry V moment. John McDonnell would have had no qualms in saying "I know thee not, person of unassumed gender and age" to former comrades whose anti-Semitism was dragging him and the party down. Jeremy Corbyn doesn't have the guts.

    Nice analogy.
    But comparing Falstaff to some anti-Semitic tossbag makes me feel queasy this close to St George’s day.

    PS ‘Twas Henry IV
    Isn't the speaker Henry V even though it's in Henry IV... perhaps I am misremembering
    Bugger. You are right.
    In which case I need to exit, pursued by a bear!
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    GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 20,847

    :lol: Do not click while drinking coffee!!

    https://twitter.com/wallaceme/status/989072866128945153

    Who knew the witch issue was so contentious.

    One source says:

    "Many people do still use “witch” to mean “someone who worships the Devil and/or evil and who engages in gratuitous malevolence.” Present-day Witches generally feel that such a definition of “witch” results merely from Christian politics and propaganda. Pagan Witches regard Satanist witches as Christian heretics and not Pagan at all."

    Another source has definitions including both:

    - an ugly or unpleasant woman.
    - a girl or woman who is bewitchingly attractive


    Interesting example of a word that has two opposing definitions?

    Like cleave.
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    AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 30,340

    Jeremy Corbyn has failed his Henry V moment. John McDonnell would have had no qualms in saying "I know thee not, person of unassumed gender and age" to former comrades whose anti-Semitism was dragging him and the party down. Jeremy Corbyn doesn't have the guts.

    Nice analogy.
    But comparing Falstaff to some anti-Semitic tossbag makes me feel queasy this close to St George’s day.

    PS ‘Twas Henry IV
    Isn't the speaker Henry V even though it's in Henry IV... perhaps I am misremembering
    Bugger. You are right.
    In which case I need to exit, pursued by a bear!
    I'll have you know I've lost a lot of weight recently.
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    Sean_FSean_F Posts: 35,836

    :lol: Do not click while drinking coffee!!

    https://twitter.com/wallaceme/status/989072866128945153

    Who knew the witch issue was so contentious.

    One source says:

    "Many people do still use “witch” to mean “someone who worships the Devil and/or evil and who engages in gratuitous malevolence.” Present-day Witches generally feel that such a definition of “witch” results merely from Christian politics and propaganda. Pagan Witches regard Satanist witches as Christian heretics and not Pagan at all."

    Another source has definitions including both:

    - an ugly or unpleasant woman.
    - a girl or woman who is bewitchingly attractive


    If she had the courage of her convictions, she'd be a proud Satanist, like JK Rowling.
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    Roger said:

    Has Roger and Ken Loach ever been seen in the same room? They appear to have the identical opinion regarding the problem of antisemitism in the Labour Party.

    It's a struggle for right wingers to understand concepts of natural justice and democracy. While aimlessly shouting 'anti-Semite' you lose sight of people's rights.

    I heard an elderly Jewish woman yesterday with an east European accent complain that the labour Party had just suspended a Jewish Israeli professor because he spoke out against Zionism.

    Thanks to the likes of Guido and his disciples this is what we've been reducd to. It's either malevolence or ignorance and I'm not really sure which
    Casually accusing people of racism, xenophobia and anti semitism is ok if it's Labour/Lefties doing the accusing, but not if it's the Tories/Righties?
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    SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 20,608
    Sean_F said:

    :lol: Do not click while drinking coffee!!

    https://twitter.com/wallaceme/status/989072866128945153

    Who knew the witch issue was so contentious.

    One source says:

    "Many people do still use “witch” to mean “someone who worships the Devil and/or evil and who engages in gratuitous malevolence.” Present-day Witches generally feel that such a definition of “witch” results merely from Christian politics and propaganda. Pagan Witches regard Satanist witches as Christian heretics and not Pagan at all."

    Another source has definitions including both:

    - an ugly or unpleasant woman.
    - a girl or woman who is bewitchingly attractive


    If she had the courage of her convictions, she'd be a proud Satanist, like JK Rowling.
    Is that an auto-correct of Stalinist?
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    PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 75,926

    Jeremy Corbyn has failed his Henry V moment. John McDonnell would have had no qualms in saying "I know thee not, person of unassumed gender and age" to former comrades whose anti-Semitism was dragging him and the party down. Jeremy Corbyn doesn't have the guts.

    Nice analogy.
    But comparing Falstaff to some anti-Semitic tossbag makes me feel queasy this close to St George’s day.

    PS ‘Twas Henry IV
    Isn't the speaker Henry V even though it's in Henry IV... perhaps I am misremembering
    Bugger. You are right.
    In which case I need to exit, pursued by a bear!
    I'll have you know I've lost a lot of weight recently.
    Yes, I could see it in your face when someone else decided to adopt an old picture of you recently for their profile.
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    GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 20,847

    Jeremy Corbyn has failed his Henry V moment. John McDonnell would have had no qualms in saying "I know thee not, person of unassumed gender and age" to former comrades whose anti-Semitism was dragging him and the party down. Jeremy Corbyn doesn't have the guts.

    Nice analogy.
    But comparing Falstaff to some anti-Semitic tossbag makes me feel queasy this close to St George’s day.

    PS ‘Twas Henry IV
    Isn't the speaker Henry V even though it's in Henry IV... perhaps I am misremembering
    Bugger. You are right.
    In which case I need to exit, pursued by a bear!
    I'll have you know I've lost a lot of weight recently.
    Hehe. Had to read that again.
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    CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,203
    jonny83 said:

    Am I alone in thinking that Labour (and Corbyn) have an anti-Semitism problem *and* that the issue is being exploited by anti-Corbynites to discredit and hopefully despise him?



    But where there is smoke there is fire and this issue won't go away because Corbyn hasn't dealt with it.
    It's not just Israel or even exclusively that.

    It's the view that the unfairnesses of the capitalist system are down to the actions of rich individuals who oppress others (rather than any more systematic analysis of economies and how they operate and their interaction with power relations etc). This very easily elides into a very old form of anti-semitic discourse that it is those with money or those good with money who are the oppressive individuals and such people were and are often seen as Jews. This, in summary, is the view of the particular strand of the hard left in which Corbyn has spent all his political life. And it creates a very fertile context in which well-worn anti-semitic memes revive - see, for instance, the infamous mural.

    Couple that with an anti-colonial stance and a view that Israel is a colonial implant of the West (ahistorical and totally ignorant of the need for self-determination and self-governance for a people, a cause usually embraced by the left when it applies to others) plus a view that because Jews are white and Western they are somehow not victims and you have all the factors necessary to allow and permit and support the sort of anti-semitic statements we have seen.

    Oh - and add in a dollop of moral superiority coupled with the belief that anti-semitism is only a fault of the far right plus a refusal to understand why centuries of persecution and an event as traumatic and evil as the Holocaust would affect how Jews see the world - and it is very easy to see how someone like Corbyn, even if he personally is not anti-semitic, cannot see how his world view is giving succour to anti-semites, ex-Nazis, BNP types and all sorts of people who hate or dislike Jews for all sorts of reasons. He literally cannot or won't see it. And since he cannot - in his heart - really see this, he cannot really see the need for him to do anything effective about it beyond general words and his aides talking about processes.

    It is I think a step too far for him to understand that it is his own world view which is part of the problem.

    But it is something which some of his supporters do understand, one reason why some of them are so hysterically making it an issue about Jeremy - if you're for the Jews you're against Jeremy - because if this world view is wrong because it leads to anti-semitism, well, what else is it wrong about and, indeed, is it worth anything at all?

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    David_EvershedDavid_Evershed Posts: 6,506

    :lol: Do not click while drinking coffee!!

    https://twitter.com/wallaceme/status/989072866128945153

    Who knew the witch issue was so contentious.

    One source says:

    "Many people do still use “witch” to mean “someone who worships the Devil and/or evil and who engages in gratuitous malevolence.” Present-day Witches generally feel that such a definition of “witch” results merely from Christian politics and propaganda. Pagan Witches regard Satanist witches as Christian heretics and not Pagan at all."

    Another source has definitions including both:

    - an ugly or unpleasant woman.
    - a girl or woman who is bewitchingly attractive


    Interesting example of a word that has two opposing definitions?

    Like cleave.
    Or wicked.

    How about wicked witch?
  • Options
    notmenotme Posts: 3,293

    Jeremy Corbyn has failed his Henry V moment. John McDonnell would have had no qualms in saying "I know thee not, person of unassumed gender and age" to former comrades whose anti-Semitism was dragging him and the party down. Jeremy Corbyn doesn't have the guts.

    I am 100% sure McDonnell would have thrown them all under the bus immediately....then when elected PM allowed them back in.
    Anyone or anything that stands in the way of the cause gets thrown under the bus when it comes Mcdonell.

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    Ishmael_ZIshmael_Z Posts: 8,981

    Am I alone in thinking that Labour (and Corbyn) have an anti-Semitism problem *and* that the issue is being exploited by anti-Corbynites to discredit and hopefully despise him?


    That Corbyn is being discredited is entirely down to Corbyn.

    If he had taken decisive action against anti-semitism in the Labour Party then he could have turned it to his advantage. He chose not to do so.
    Oh I agree.
    But there’s an aspect to this which is more interested in damaging Corbyn than tackling anti-Semitism.

    The nervous nancy in me worries about “anti-Semitic inflation”. That we risk devaluing real anti-Semitism in our haste to damn the Corbynistas for crimes both cardinal and petty.
    We don't recognise any lower bound with any other type of "hate crime" below which it's just banter or too trivial to waste court time over - consider e.g. gay wedding cakes. If there is such a thing as "petty" antisemitism, it's what that ghastly man Aidan Burley was guilty of. It rightly ended his career.

    And nobody is "hasting" to do anything, this has moved at a snail pace because of Corbyn's failure to act.
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    David_EvershedDavid_Evershed Posts: 6,506
    Can someone clarify please.

    If you think that Jews should not occupy Israel that seems to make you anti Zionist.

    And being anti Zionist seems to make you anti semitic.

    Is this right?
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    Tissue_PriceTissue_Price Posts: 9,039

    Jeremy Corbyn has failed his Henry V moment. John McDonnell would have had no qualms in saying "I know thee not, person of unassumed gender and age" to former comrades whose anti-Semitism was dragging him and the party down. Jeremy Corbyn doesn't have the guts.

    Nice analogy.
    But comparing Falstaff to some anti-Semitic tossbag makes me feel queasy this close to St George’s day.

    PS ‘Twas Henry IV
    Isn't the speaker Henry V even though it's in Henry IV... perhaps I am misremembering
    Bugger. You are right.
    In which case I need to exit, pursued by a bear!
    I'll have you know I've lost a lot of weight recently.
    I think I may have found it. Would you like it back?
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    rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 58,209

    Can someone clarify please.

    If you think that Jews should not occupy Israel that seems to make you anti Zionist.

    And being anti Zionist seems to make you anti semitic.

    Is this right?

    At least according to Wikipedia, this is a source of on-going dispute.
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    Sean_FSean_F Posts: 35,836

    Can someone clarify please.

    If you think that Jews should not occupy Israel that seems to make you anti Zionist.

    And being anti Zionist seems to make you anti semitic.

    Is this right?

    It's hard to see how one could bring the existence of Israel to an end without expelling or killing its Jewish inhabitants.
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    Sean_F said:

    Can someone clarify please.

    If you think that Jews should not occupy Israel that seems to make you anti Zionist.

    And being anti Zionist seems to make you anti semitic.

    Is this right?

    It's hard to see how one could bring the existence of Israel to an end without expelling or killing its Jewish inhabitants.
    Just follow the example of 1948 in reverse?
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    rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 58,209
    Sean_F said:

    Can someone clarify please.

    If you think that Jews should not occupy Israel that seems to make you anti Zionist.

    And being anti Zionist seems to make you anti semitic.

    Is this right?

    It's hard to see how one could bring the existence of Israel to an end without expelling or killing its Jewish inhabitants.
    And presumably go against the UN.
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    So in the last year Corbyn's favorability has improved by 20% and Mrs May's has fallen by 25%?

    Am I reading the graph right?
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    Another slap down for Corbyn - he misses the open goal every time
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    TGOHFTGOHF Posts: 21,633

    Another slap down for Corbyn - he misses the open goal every time

    Hoisted by his limited choice of front benchers.
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    Told you that the DUP could make Corbyn PM.

    A senior DUP MP today warned Theresa May that his party is prepared to bring down the Government rather than see Northern Ireland fracture away from Britain.

    Nigel Dodds, leader of the Democratic Unionist Party at Westminster, said his party would enforce its “red line” that Brexit must not lead to a rift between Northern Ireland and the rest of the UK.

    EU leaders are pushing for the province to effectively remain in the customs union and single market if the Government fails to come up with a solution to avoid a hard border between Northern Ireland and the Republic.

    Mr Dodds said: “If, as a result of the Brexit negotiations for instance, there was to be any suggestion that Northern Ireland would be treated differently in a way, for instance that we were part of a customs union and a single market and the rest of the UK wasn’t ... for us that would be a red line, which we would vote against the Government.”


    https://www.standard.co.uk/news/politics/brexit-latest-dup-leader-vows-to-bring-down-theresa-may-if-she-breaks-red-line-on-border-a3823321.html
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    Tissue_PriceTissue_Price Posts: 9,039

    So in the last year Corbyn's favorability has improved by 20% and Mrs May's has fallen by 25%?

    Am I reading the graph right?

    In a strict statistical sense, yes. Just looking at the endpoints misses a big chunk of the story, though.
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    David_EvershedDavid_Evershed Posts: 6,506

    So in the last year Corbyn's favorability has improved by 20% and Mrs May's has fallen by 25%?

    Am I reading the graph right?

    You must have your colours reversed.
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    CD13CD13 Posts: 6,351
    For what it's worth (not much, I know), I don't think Jezza is racist.

    But in his mind, there are Semites and Semites. There are Palestinians who are good, because he believes they re oppressed, anti-American and powerless, all the good things.. And there are Jewish people ... who are not.

    So when push comes to shove, and even before, he'll have a preference. He may not be actively against Jewish people, but he may not be so bothered about them. They're the wrong sort of Semites really.
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    David_EvershedDavid_Evershed Posts: 6,506

    Sean_F said:

    Can someone clarify please.

    If you think that Jews should not occupy Israel that seems to make you anti Zionist.

    And being anti Zionist seems to make you anti semitic.

    Is this right?

    It's hard to see how one could bring the existence of Israel to an end without expelling or killing its Jewish inhabitants.
    Just follow the example of 1948 in reverse?

    To which country would those born in Israel be returned?
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    NigelbNigelb Posts: 62,584
    Foxy said:

    Am I alone in thinking that Labour (and Corbyn) have an anti-Semitism problem *and* that the issue is being exploited by anti-Corbynites to discredit and hopefully despise him?

    That is my opinion too.

    I also note that Left wing activists are genuinely suspicious of expulsions and suspensions as a way of maintaining internal party discipline, as they have often been used in the past to force a centrist agenda on the party. Activists are also often skilled barrack room lawyers and adept at spinning out procedures. It is important that the rules and procedures are followed to the letter, if expulsions are not to wind up with M'learned friends.

    This is a fair point, but Corbyn appears to be similarly inhibited in publicly calling out individuals’ antisemitic comments/posts etc - which I do not believe the ‘rule book’ prevents him doing at all.
    His fallback mode is a generalised ‘I condemn it’, which seems to me either a cop out, or a failure of leadership.
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    So in the last year Corbyn's favorability has improved by 20% and Mrs May's has fallen by 25%?

    Am I reading the graph right?

    In a strict statistical sense, yes. Just looking at the endpoints misses a big chunk of the story, though.
    You mean looking at (the movements) between two data points isn't a good approach?
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    MJWMJW Posts: 1,349

    Am I alone in thinking that Labour (and Corbyn) have an anti-Semitism problem *and* that the issue is being exploited by anti-Corbynites to discredit and hopefully despise him?

    Such an approach confuses cause with effect. Personally I don't mind Labour being a lot more left-wing economically - I might quibble with the maths or strategy, but I don't have any objection in principle, and wouldn't get angry over it or be too peeved with the leader. Lots of people on the Labour right really hated Ed Miliband but for the most part bit their tongue.

    With Corbyn lots of us have been banging on about Corbyn's anti-Semitism problem since summer 2015 - it was a major reason I and others despise him and think he's always been discredited - because he hung around with and attracts these really awful people whom he never rebuked and often offered encouragement. It, well to put it more broadly, his attachment to the conspiracist far left where this stuff has long festered, is the reason we find him unconscionable in a way that even other leaders on the left of the party wouldn't be. We warned stuff like this would happen in 2015 and of course it has, because people with these views feel endorsed by him and he has continued to do nothing concrete to dissuade them from believing that.
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    mwadamsmwadams Posts: 3,140

    So in the last year Corbyn's favorability has improved by 20% and Mrs May's has fallen by 25%?

    Am I reading the graph right?

    Yup. They've both fallen about 23% from their peak (with May's peak apparently at the start, Corbyn's around the time of the election). Both improved about 20% from their trough.

    I would suggest it is all quite volatile and the best guidance for elections is that "events" will have a huge impact - neither is in control of their own narrative.
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    MortimerMortimer Posts: 13,942

    Told you that the DUP could make Corbyn PM.

    A senior DUP MP today warned Theresa May that his party is prepared to bring down the Government rather than see Northern Ireland fracture away from Britain.

    Nigel Dodds, leader of the Democratic Unionist Party at Westminster, said his party would enforce its “red line” that Brexit must not lead to a rift between Northern Ireland and the rest of the UK.

    EU leaders are pushing for the province to effectively remain in the customs union and single market if the Government fails to come up with a solution to avoid a hard border between Northern Ireland and the Republic.

    Mr Dodds said: “If, as a result of the Brexit negotiations for instance, there was to be any suggestion that Northern Ireland would be treated differently in a way, for instance that we were part of a customs union and a single market and the rest of the UK wasn’t ... for us that would be a red line, which we would vote against the Government.”


    https://www.standard.co.uk/news/politics/brexit-latest-dup-leader-vows-to-bring-down-theresa-may-if-she-breaks-red-line-on-border-a3823321.html

    The only people I've seen suggesting that such a fracture might happen are Remainers...
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    rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 58,209
    Corbyn making another total hash of PMQs
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    SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 20,608

    So in the last year Corbyn's favorability has improved by 20% and Mrs May's has fallen by 25%?

    Am I reading the graph right?

    In a strict statistical sense, yes. Just looking at the endpoints misses a big chunk of the story, though.
    Just looking at the end points also loses the many opportunities to shout "CROSSOVER!"

    However, it is good to see that TSE has been on a LibDem graph-making course.
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    Tissue_PriceTissue_Price Posts: 9,039

    So in the last year Corbyn's favorability has improved by 20% and Mrs May's has fallen by 25%?

    Am I reading the graph right?

    In a strict statistical sense, yes. Just looking at the endpoints misses a big chunk of the story, though.
    You mean looking at (the movements) between two data points isn't a good approach?
    Why implicitly interpolate when you actually have more data points?

    Anyway we can both stop winding each other up now :p
This discussion has been closed.