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politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » YouGov’s Brexit tracker – how opinion has moved since the June

SystemSystem Posts: 11,683
edited May 2018 in General

imagepoliticalbetting.com » Blog Archive » YouGov’s Brexit tracker – how opinion has moved since the June 2016 referendum

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  • Options
    CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 59,674
    First! Like LEAVE.....
  • Options
    JonathanJonathan Posts: 20,901
    We need Brexitexit.
  • Options
    williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 48,067
    The degringolade is just beginning.
  • Options
    saddosaddo Posts: 534
    Sajid Javid is going to be a major problem for Labour if he carries on as he has been today. Sticking it to Corbyn big time. Good bet for next pm now.
  • Options
    MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 50,125
    Foxy said:
    First ever lie-free political literature?
  • Options
    kle4kle4 Posts: 91,750
    I am beginning to think if the transition goes on long enough, Labour will transition into a Remain stance somehow, figures like this are one reason why.
  • Options
    kle4kle4 Posts: 91,750
    Foxy said:
    Seems impossible, I mean they got names onto the bottom at least so you'd think they'd notice the rest, but I am so much happier knowing such errors can exist and bring joy.
  • Options
    williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 48,067
    kle4 said:

    I am beginning to think if the transition goes on long enough, Labour will transition into a Remain stance somehow, figures like this are one reason why.

    That's if we even get that far. The path of least resistance could well be a revocation of Article 50, despite all the apparent political obstacles.
  • Options
    Scrapheap_as_wasScrapheap_as_was Posts: 10,059
    8th like Arsenal
  • Options
    rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 53,993

    Foxy said:
    First ever lie-free political literature?
    :):)
  • Options
    CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 59,674
    saddo said:

    Sajid Javid is going to be a major problem for Labour if he carries on as he has been today. Sticking it to Corbyn big time. Good bet for next pm now.

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2018/05/02/sajid-javid-challenges-jeremy-corbyn-condemn-hard-left-activists/
  • Options
    Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 60,983
    That could as well be a reflection of the Government's incompetent execution of the decision. May's endless kicking of the can speaks not of decisiveness.
  • Options
    David_EvershedDavid_Evershed Posts: 6,506
    edited May 2018

    The degringolade is just beginning.


    Is that de - gringo - lade of Sajid Javid?
  • Options
    Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 60,298
    saddo said:

    Sajid Javid is going to be a major problem for Labour if he carries on as he has been today. Sticking it to Corbyn big time. Good bet for next pm now.

    In 2 days his reputation must have rocketed.

    The way he took Corbyn apart over hard left labour members calling him 'coconut' or 'Uncle Tom' was electrifying. He had Corbyn and Abbott on the ropes
  • Options
    not_on_firenot_on_fire Posts: 4,341
    kle4 said:

    I am beginning to think if the transition goes on long enough, Labour will transition into a Remain stance somehow, figures like this are one reason why.

    If it wasn’t for Corbyn this may have already happened. Labour would at least be backing EEA/SM membership
  • Options
    tlg86tlg86 Posts: 25,190

    8th like Arsenal

    Surely that should have been 8 like the consecutive FA Cup Semi Finals your lot have lost.
  • Options
    GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 20,847
    edited May 2018
    Brexit. A policy without logic, without coherence, and without support.

    How long must we pretend this is what we want or need?
  • Options
    Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 60,298

    Brexit. A policy without logic, without coherence, and without support.

    How long must we pretend this is we want or need it?

    Agree but without support is stretching it
  • Options
    brendan16brendan16 Posts: 2,315
    edited May 2018
    kle4 said:

    Foxy said:
    Seems impossible, I mean they got names onto the bottom at least so you'd think they'd notice the rest, but I am so much happier knowing such errors can exist and bring joy.
    The Tories ran Redbridge from 1965 to the mid 1990s and again in the 2000s up to the last elections in 2014. I do wonder the way the borough is changing if they will have any councillors left on Friday bar possibly in leafy Wanstead.

    Even if it is a safe Labour ward this leaflet is poor. But then I am not sure there is much that can be done anyway for Ilford town.
  • Options
    not_on_firenot_on_fire Posts: 4,341

    Brexit. A policy without logic, without coherence, and without support.

    How long must we pretend this is we want or need it?

    Agree but without support is stretching it
    Well on this poll, 53% of people think Brexit was wrong vs 47% who dont. Isn’t that a “clear majority”?
  • Options
    David_EvershedDavid_Evershed Posts: 6,506
    Foxy said:

    Going through the motions?
  • Options
    rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 53,993

    Brexit. A policy without logic, without coherence, and without support.

    How long must we pretend this is we want or need it?

    Agree but without support is stretching it
    Well on this poll, 53% of people think Brexit was wrong vs 47% who dont. Isn’t that a “clear majority”?
    Wake me up when it's 60:40.
  • Options
    The_TaxmanThe_Taxman Posts: 2,979

    Brexit. A policy without logic, without coherence, and without support.

    How long must we pretend this is we want or need it?

    That is "populism" for you! What a mess. Politics in the UK seems to have sunk through the floor. The point being the politicians are offering a worst deal than we have in the EU. As a country we will look stupid either way.
  • Options
    Scrapheap_as_wasScrapheap_as_was Posts: 10,059
    tlg86 said:

    8th like Arsenal

    Surely that should have been 8 like the consecutive FA Cup Semi Finals your lot have lost.
    Nah - I prefer the number of times we've won it.
  • Options
    David_EvershedDavid_Evershed Posts: 6,506

    saddo said:

    Sajid Javid is going to be a major problem for Labour if he carries on as he has been today. Sticking it to Corbyn big time. Good bet for next pm now.

    In 2 days his reputation must have rocketed.

    The way he took Corbyn apart over hard left labour members calling him 'coconut' or 'Uncle Tom' was electrifying. He had Corbyn and Abbott on the ropes

    Sajid is not shy.
  • Options
    SandpitSandpit Posts: 49,897
    Foxy said:

    Second, after Ilford:

    ttps://twitter.com/AdamBienkov/status/991576965072277509?s=19

    Surely no-one actually posted that through someone’s letterbox?
  • Options
    Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 60,298

    Brexit. A policy without logic, without coherence, and without support.

    How long must we pretend this is we want or need it?

    Agree but without support is stretching it
    Well on this poll, 53% of people think Brexit was wrong vs 47% who dont. Isn’t that a “clear majority”?
    'Without support' when 47% in this poll support Brexit is pushing it
  • Options
    AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 30,340
    Before the more intense Leavers tell us that they don't believe polls, can they please explain why consistent polling is showing a significant and reasonably steady swing to Remain (over 3%) over the period since August 2016?

    It's too slow to stop Brexit by itself, of course. But one does detect a collapse of intellectual morale on the Leave side at present. The tweeting is quite forlorn just now.
  • Options
    GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 20,847

    Brexit. A policy without logic, without coherence, and without support.

    How long must we pretend this is we want or need it?

    That is "populism" for you! What a mess. Politics in the UK seems to have sunk through the floor. The point being the politicians are offering a worst deal than we have in the EU. As a country we will look stupid either way.
    We do indeed look stupid.
    Our international reputation has taken a battering, and whatever happens that is damage done.

    Who is your avatar BTW?
  • Options
    The_TaxmanThe_Taxman Posts: 2,979
    rcs1000 said:

    Brexit. A policy without logic, without coherence, and without support.

    How long must we pretend this is we want or need it?

    Agree but without support is stretching it
    Well on this poll, 53% of people think Brexit was wrong vs 47% who dont. Isn’t that a “clear majority”?
    Wake me up when it's 60:40.
    It is like car accidents, nobody ever admits to having been negligent. The same with Brexit, nobody will recant even though the mounting evidence shows it is unwise and not based on sound economics.
  • Options
    David_EvershedDavid_Evershed Posts: 6,506

    Brexit. A policy without logic, without coherence, and without support.

    How long must we pretend this is we want or need it?

    Agree but without support is stretching it
    Well on this poll, 53% of people think Brexit was wrong vs 47% who dont. Isn’t that a “clear majority”?
    What's the margin of error versus an actual vote?
  • Options
    brendan16brendan16 Posts: 2,315
    edited May 2018

    Brexit. A policy without logic, without coherence, and without support.

    How long must we pretend this is we want or need it?

    Agree but without support is stretching it
    Well on this poll, 53% of people think Brexit was wrong vs 47% who dont. Isn’t that a “clear majority”?
    You gov's poll at 10pm on 23 June 2016 had remain ahead by 4 per cent. Who says it isn't equally wrong now!

    Of course who needs to bother actually voting - we can just change tack on the basis of a poll?!

    If some people don't seem to respect actual votes why should others accept polls?
  • Options
    Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 60,983
    Mr. Evershed, just saw a clip of him challenging Corbyn. Morally righteous, and won't hurt his prospects at all if he continues in that vein. The Chairman looked very uncomfortable.
  • Options
    MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 50,125
    kle4 said:

    Foxy said:
    Seems impossible, I mean they got names onto the bottom at least so you'd think they'd notice the rest, but I am so much happier knowing such errors can exist and bring joy.
    Presumably, they were buggered on spending limits if they reprinted it....
  • Options
    GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 20,847
    rcs1000 said:

    Brexit. A policy without logic, without coherence, and without support.

    How long must we pretend this is we want or need it?

    Agree but without support is stretching it
    Well on this poll, 53% of people think Brexit was wrong vs 47% who dont. Isn’t that a “clear majority”?
    Wake me up when it's 60:40.
    Why? Because it’s a round number?
  • Options
    kle4kle4 Posts: 91,750

    Brexit. A policy without logic, without coherence, and without support.

    How long must we pretend this is we want or need it?

    Agree but without support is stretching it
    Well on this poll, 53% of people think Brexit was wrong vs 47% who dont. Isn’t that a “clear majority”?
    Yes and no. The big change will come when 100% of those who think it was wrong also think it is so wrong it needs stopping/reversing, which at the moment is less clear, as a majority currently think it was wrong, but do they think it so wrong it must be stopped?

    Additionally, while there is a clear trend, what if in 1 year the number changes back to more thinking it was right?

    Nevertheless, the trend is not insignificant, even though it is not a signal of inevitability.
  • Options
    Richard_TyndallRichard_Tyndall Posts: 30,945

    Brexit. A policy without logic, without coherence, and without support.

    How long must we pretend this is we want or need it?

    That is "populism" for you! What a mess. Politics in the UK seems to have sunk through the floor. The point being the politicians are offering a worst deal than we have in the EU. As a country we will look stupid either way.
    Populism - the name given to democratic decisions you disagree with.

    I do love these threads as they give false hope to all those who follow the EU line of 'if you get the wrong answer keep asking the question until you get the right one.'

    The more I see people trying to reverse the decision the more I look forward to the day you finally realise you have failed and the pain that will bring.
  • Options
    kle4kle4 Posts: 91,750

    kle4 said:

    Foxy said:
    Seems impossible, I mean they got names onto the bottom at least so you'd think they'd notice the rest, but I am so much happier knowing such errors can exist and bring joy.
    Presumably, they were buggered on spending limits if they reprinted it....
    The cost of mockery for handing them out is surely higher than eating the cost and dumping them though.
  • Options
    GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 20,847

    Brexit. A policy without logic, without coherence, and without support.

    How long must we pretend this is we want or need it?

    Agree but without support is stretching it
    A minority of the public - in poll after poll - do now support Brexit.

    No doubt an even smaller minority support the garbled mess we are going to end up with.
  • Options
    PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 75,929
    brendan16 said:

    Brexit. A policy without logic, without coherence, and without support.

    How long must we pretend this is we want or need it?

    Agree but without support is stretching it
    Well on this poll, 53% of people think Brexit was wrong vs 47% who dont. Isn’t that a “clear majority”?
    You gov's poll at 10pm on 23 June 2016 had remain ahead by 4 per cent. Who says it isn't equally wrong now!

    Of course who needs to bother actually voting - we can just change tack on the basis of a poll?!

    If some people don't seem to respect actual votes why should others accept polls?
    From the unexpected Tory Maj in 1992, through the Brexit ref and Corbyn's outperformance in 2017 you never quite know how a vote will go no matter how many opinion polls are done on the matter :o
  • Options
    Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 60,983
    Mr. Meeks, the execution of the decision by May has been utterly feeble. That's the prime reason, I suspect. Plus, the grass is always greener.
  • Options
    AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 30,340
  • Options
    GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 20,847
    brendan16 said:

    Brexit. A policy without logic, without coherence, and without support.

    How long must we pretend this is we want or need it?

    Agree but without support is stretching it
    Well on this poll, 53% of people think Brexit was wrong vs 47% who dont. Isn’t that a “clear majority”?
    You gov's poll at 10pm on 23 June 2016 had remain ahead by 4 per cent. Who says it isn't equally wrong now!

    Of course who needs to bother actually voting - we can just change tack on the basis of a poll?!

    If some people don't seem to respect actual votes why should others accept polls?
    How about several polls, and a margin higher than the YouGov error?
  • Options
    The_TaxmanThe_Taxman Posts: 2,979
    edited May 2018

    Brexit. A policy without logic, without coherence, and without support.

    How long must we pretend this is we want or need it?

    That is "populism" for you! What a mess. Politics in the UK seems to have sunk through the floor. The point being the politicians are offering a worst deal than we have in the EU. As a country we will look stupid either way.
    We do indeed look stupid.
    Our international reputation has taken a battering, and whatever happens that is damage done.

    Who is your avatar BTW?
    A truly horrible figure in a film called falling down. A racist, homophobic and foul mouthed individual who ends up being shot and mounted in one of his display cases in navy surplus store. Maybe I will change it again!
  • Options
    kle4kle4 Posts: 91,750

    rcs1000 said:

    Brexit. A policy without logic, without coherence, and without support.

    How long must we pretend this is we want or need it?

    Agree but without support is stretching it
    Well on this poll, 53% of people think Brexit was wrong vs 47% who dont. Isn’t that a “clear majority”?
    Wake me up when it's 60:40.
    It is like car accidents, nobody ever admits to having been negligent. The same with Brexit, nobody will recant even though the mounting evidence shows it is unwise and not based on sound economics.
    People will recant. It has gone worse than I had hoped for, and I am not certain how I would vote if we had a second referendum. Just as some remainers have become leave converts, some leavers will change tack given it is not the brexit they hope for. That people don't like to change their minds doesn't mean it doesn't happen.
  • Options
    Richard_TyndallRichard_Tyndall Posts: 30,945

    Brexit. A policy without logic, without coherence, and without support.

    How long must we pretend this is we want or need it?

    Agree but without support is stretching it
    A minority of the public - in poll after poll - do now support Brexit.

    No doubt an even smaller minority support the garbled mess we are going to end up with.
    If we have learnt anything in the last few years it is that time and time again opinion polls are proved to be worthless.
  • Options
    AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 30,340

    Mr. Meeks, the execution of the decision by May has been utterly feeble. That's the prime reason, I suspect. Plus, the grass is always greener.

    Long gone are the days when any Brexit would be better than Remain, it seems.
  • Options
    tlg86tlg86 Posts: 25,190
    edited May 2018

    tlg86 said:

    8th like Arsenal

    Surely that should have been 8 like the consecutive FA Cup Semi Finals your lot have lost.
    Nah - I prefer the number of times we've won it.
    I’m too young to remember your last win
  • Options
    GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 20,847

    Brexit. A policy without logic, without coherence, and without support.

    How long must we pretend this is we want or need it?

    That is "populism" for you! What a mess. Politics in the UK seems to have sunk through the floor. The point being the politicians are offering a worst deal than we have in the EU. As a country we will look stupid either way.
    Populism - the name given to democratic decisions you disagree with.

    I do love these threads as they give false hope to all those who follow the EU line of 'if you get the wrong answer keep asking the question until you get the right one.'

    The more I see people trying to reverse the decision the more I look forward to the day you finally realise you have failed and the pain that will bring.
    Tyndall his usual charming self.
    Did the EU steal your girlfriend or something?
  • Options
    CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 59,674
    Never the EU's.....
  • Options
    GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 20,847

    Brexit. A policy without logic, without coherence, and without support.

    How long must we pretend this is we want or need it?

    That is "populism" for you! What a mess. Politics in the UK seems to have sunk through the floor. The point being the politicians are offering a worst deal than we have in the EU. As a country we will look stupid either way.
    We do indeed look stupid.
    Our international reputation has taken a battering, and whatever happens that is damage done.

    Who is your avatar BTW?
    A truly horrible figure in a film called falling down. A racist, homophobic and foul mouthed individual who ends up being shot and mounted in one of his display cases in navy surplus store. Maybe I will change it again!
    Haha. A film very much of its time, but eerily prescient! Predicted Trumpology and perhaps Brexit too!
  • Options
    GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 20,847

    Brexit. A policy without logic, without coherence, and without support.

    How long must we pretend this is we want or need it?

    Agree but without support is stretching it
    A minority of the public - in poll after poll - do now support Brexit.

    No doubt an even smaller minority support the garbled mess we are going to end up with.
    If we have learnt anything in the last few years it is that time and time again opinion polls are proved to be worthless.
    We thus see that Brexitism is inherently undemocratic. Having won the referendum it now dispenses with any need of public - or indeed parliamentary, given recent rhetoric - support!
  • Options
    Scrapheap_as_wasScrapheap_as_was Posts: 10,059
    tlg86 said:

    tlg86 said:

    8th like Arsenal

    Surely that should have been 8 like the consecutive FA Cup Semi Finals your lot have lost.
    Nah - I prefer the number of times we've won it.
    I’m too young to remember your last win
    Sadly I remember many of them.... as if yesterday...
  • Options
    Richard_TyndallRichard_Tyndall Posts: 30,945

    Brexit. A policy without logic, without coherence, and without support.

    How long must we pretend this is we want or need it?

    That is "populism" for you! What a mess. Politics in the UK seems to have sunk through the floor. The point being the politicians are offering a worst deal than we have in the EU. As a country we will look stupid either way.
    Populism - the name given to democratic decisions you disagree with.

    I do love these threads as they give false hope to all those who follow the EU line of 'if you get the wrong answer keep asking the question until you get the right one.'

    The more I see people trying to reverse the decision the more I look forward to the day you finally realise you have failed and the pain that will bring.
    Tyndall his usual charming self.
    Did the EU steal your girlfriend or something?
    No but fuckwits like you are trying to steal the vote.

    There are Remainers out there - and plenty on here - who are unhappy about the original result but have accepted it. They deserve empathy and understanding. There are others like you who scorn democracy and deserve nothing but scorn in return.
  • Options
    AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 30,340

    Never the EU's.....
    Well that's not true either. But Vote Leave Avoid Responsibility is in full flight just now.
  • Options
    Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 60,983
    Cheers, Miss Vance. I'll be off to bed at the normal time, but useful info for those planning to stay up.
  • Options
    kle4kle4 Posts: 91,750

    Brexit. A policy without logic, without coherence, and without support.

    How long must we pretend this is we want or need it?

    Agree but without support is stretching it
    A minority of the public - in poll after poll - do now support Brexit.

    No doubt an even smaller minority support the garbled mess we are going to end up with.
    If we have learnt anything in the last few years it is that time and time again opinion polls are proved to be worthless.
    We thus see that Brexitism is inherently undemocratic. Having won the referendum it now dispenses with any need of public - or indeed parliamentary, given recent rhetoric - support!
    There's no need to be silly. Parties supporting implementing the referendum were returned as the big two just last year, the idea poll support dropping matches that is ridiculous, even though waning support is not necessarily insignificant.

    On parliamentary support certainly some people react too strongly to any stumbling blocks, and start advocating silly, major constitutional changes out of anger, but heated rhetoric being angry at parliamentary ping pong is not exactly the same thing as dispensing with parliamentary support, nor even would be defending separate roles of executive and legislature.

    Good evening all.
  • Options
    GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 20,847
    Perhaps Brexit will end like “Twelve Angry Men” with some Everyman like Greg Clark convincing everyone else it is total bullshit, and Fox sobbing violently into his cabinet papers.
  • Options
    Richard_TyndallRichard_Tyndall Posts: 30,945

    Brexit. A policy without logic, without coherence, and without support.

    How long must we pretend this is we want or need it?

    Agree but without support is stretching it
    A minority of the public - in poll after poll - do now support Brexit.

    No doubt an even smaller minority support the garbled mess we are going to end up with.
    If we have learnt anything in the last few years it is that time and time again opinion polls are proved to be worthless.
    We thus see that Brexitism is inherently undemocratic. Having won the referendum it now dispenses with any need of public - or indeed parliamentary, given recent rhetoric - support!
    Nope. Lying again. I have said all along that Parliament should get to vote on these things. I supported the Gina Miller challenge and was pleased with the result. I said yesterday that we should get rid of the Royal Prerogative even if it meant votes going against what I believed in. I believe in democracy. You don't.

    It is only people like you who want to overturn democratic decisions when you don't agree with them. You really are a shameful character.
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    williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 48,067

    Perhaps Brexit will end like “Twelve Angry Men” with some Everyman like Greg Clark convincing everyone else it is total bullshit, and Fox sobbing violently into his cabinet papers.
    Imagine what a bombshell it would be if an up-and-coming Tory wrote a well-argued newspaper article saying it's time to think again and calling for a second referendum.
  • Options
    not_on_firenot_on_fire Posts: 4,341

    Brexit. A policy without logic, without coherence, and without support.

    How long must we pretend this is we want or need it?

    Agree but without support is stretching it
    Well on this poll, 53% of people think Brexit was wrong vs 47% who dont. Isn’t that a “clear majority”?
    'Without support' when 47% in this poll support Brexit is pushing it
    Butbutbut I thought the EU would be desperate to do a deal with us? German Car manufactures, &c
  • Options
    PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 75,929
    Knowing what we do about Amber Rudd's political leanings, and this meeting, the appointment of Javid looks to be setting the Gov'ts radar to a slightly harder Brexit than the presumed 5-6 in favour of a customs partnership counterfactual that would have been the case had Rudd remained in post.
  • Options
    AnazinaAnazina Posts: 3,487

    Brexit. A policy without logic, without coherence, and without support.

    How long must we pretend this is we want or need it?

    Agree but without support is stretching it
    A minority of the public - in poll after poll - do now support Brexit.

    No doubt an even smaller minority support the garbled mess we are going to end up with.
    If we have learnt anything in the last few years it is that time and time again opinion polls are proved to be worthless.

    On that point Richard we can agree! I find the excitement baffling on here when new polls come out. I was like that once. Not any more.
  • Options
    GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 20,847

    Brexit. A policy without logic, without coherence, and without support.

    How long must we pretend this is we want or need it?

    Agree but without support is stretching it
    A minority of the public - in poll after poll - do now support Brexit.

    No doubt an even smaller minority support the garbled mess we are going to end up with.
    If we have learnt anything in the last few years it is that time and time again opinion polls are proved to be worthless.
    We thus see that Brexitism is inherently undemocratic. Having won the referendum it now dispenses with any need of public - or indeed parliamentary, given recent rhetoric - support!
    Nope. Lying again. I have said all along that Parliament should get to vote on these things. I supported the Gina Miller challenge and was pleased with the result. I said yesterday that we should get rid of the Royal Prerogative even if it meant votes going against what I believed in. I believe in democracy. You don't.

    It is only people like you who want to overturn democratic decisions when you don't agree with them. You really are a shameful character.
    You need to address the fact that Brexit no longer carries public support. What breed of democracy are you espousing?
  • Options
    PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 75,929

    Brexit. A policy without logic, without coherence, and without support.

    How long must we pretend this is we want or need it?

    Agree but without support is stretching it
    Well on this poll, 53% of people think Brexit was wrong vs 47% who dont. Isn’t that a “clear majority”?
    'Without support' when 47% in this poll support Brexit is pushing it
    Butbutbut I thought the EU would be desperate to do a deal with us? German Car manufactures, &c
    I think the German car manufacturers would like as smooth a Brexit as possible actually. Leo Varadkar looks to be the one truly trying to put Brexit on the rocks and due to Ireland's unique position with regards to our history and also as a valued EU member he has leverage to certainly make the Gov'ts position extremely awkward.
    There is a certain amount of truth in Lord Carswell's words.
  • Options
    The_TaxmanThe_Taxman Posts: 2,979
    edited May 2018

    Brexit. A policy without logic, without coherence, and without support.

    How long must we pretend this is we want or need it?

    That is "populism" for you! What a mess. Politics in the UK seems to have sunk through the floor. The point being the politicians are offering a worst deal than we have in the EU. As a country we will look stupid either way.
    Populism - the name given to democratic decisions you disagree with.

    I do love these threads as they give false hope to all those who follow the EU line of 'if you get the wrong answer keep asking the question until you get the right one.'

    The more I see people trying to reverse the decision the more I look forward to the day you finally realise you have failed and the pain that will bring.
    The only thing I am worried about is the economy.

    If I am wrong I will admit it.

    Having studied economics at degree level, I suspect the impact on our economy will be substantial and painful in the event of a no deal. If a deal can be found that encompasses financial services, traded goods and like plus an acceptable compromise on Northern Ireland. Then great, however I worry for the impact on peoples lives if nothing is agreed. I refer to "populism" with disdain because it is easy promise something it is harder to deliver on it as we witness week in and week out with Brexit. The end point will come and the question is will we economically be better staying in or leaving. I don't think it will be the latter.
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    not_on_firenot_on_fire Posts: 4,341

    Perhaps Brexit will end like “Twelve Angry Men” with some Everyman like Greg Clark convincing everyone else it is total bullshit, and Fox sobbing violently into his cabinet papers.
    Right now it feels like the end of the Italian Job
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    AnazinaAnazina Posts: 3,487

    Foxy said:
    First ever lie-free political literature?
    Bravo :)
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    GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 20,847
    kle4 said:

    Brexit. A policy without logic, without coherence, and without support.

    How long must we pretend this is we want or need it?

    Agree but without support is stretching it
    A minority of the public - in poll after poll - do now support Brexit.

    No doubt an even smaller minority support the garbled mess we are going to end up with.
    If we have learnt anything in the last few years it is that time and time again opinion polls are proved to be worthless.
    We thus see that Brexitism is inherently undemocratic. Having won the referendum it now dispenses with any need of public - or indeed parliamentary, given recent rhetoric - support!
    There's no need to be silly. Parties supporting implementing the referendum were returned as the big two just last year, the idea poll support dropping matches that is ridiculous, even though waning support is not necessarily insignificant.

    On parliamentary support certainly some people react too strongly to any stumbling blocks, and start advocating silly, major constitutional changes out of anger, but heated rhetoric being angry at parliamentary ping pong is not exactly the same thing as dispensing with parliamentary support, nor even would be defending separate roles of executive and legislature.

    Good evening all.
    I may be hyperbolic, but not overly.
    I don’t welcome any angry constitutional-wrecking rhetoric, thanks. Not in this age of politics via social media.

    As for the recent elections, no one and nothing won a mandate and it seems a goodly chunk of Labour support voted that way *despite* Brexit.
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    PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 75,929
    Once we leave it will be interesting to see the 'rejoin' vs 'stay out' numbers in opinion polls.
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    GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 20,847

    Perhaps Brexit will end like “Twelve Angry Men” with some Everyman like Greg Clark convincing everyone else it is total bullshit, and Fox sobbing violently into his cabinet papers.
    Imagine what a bombshell it would be if an up-and-coming Tory wrote a well-argued newspaper article saying it's time to think again and calling for a second referendum.
    It would be incredibly brave, but potentially electrifiying.
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    Richard_NabaviRichard_Nabavi Posts: 30,820
    Pulpstar said:

    Knowing what we do about Amber Rudd's political leanings, and this meeting, the appointment of Javid looks to be setting the Gov'ts radar to a slightly harder Brexit than the presumed 5-6 in favour of a customs partnership counterfactual that would have been the case had Rudd remained in post.

    Possibly, but the customs partnership idea is daft, as I posted earlier, so it may simply be that they are ruling it out because they can see that it's not going to work. The choice* is what it has been for some time: a customs union of some kind - anathema to the Brexiteers - or Canada Plus with as streamlined a set of customs procedures as we can possibly get.

    * Subject to the usual caveat that it depends on what our EU friends will agree to.
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    Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 60,298

    Brexit. A policy without logic, without coherence, and without support.

    How long must we pretend this is we want or need it?

    Agree but without support is stretching it
    A minority of the public - in poll after poll - do now support Brexit.

    No doubt an even smaller minority support the garbled mess we are going to end up with.
    If we have learnt anything in the last few years it is that time and time again opinion polls are proved to be worthless.
    We thus see that Brexitism is inherently undemocratic. Having won the referendum it now dispenses with any need of public - or indeed parliamentary, given recent rhetoric - support!
    Nope. Lying again. I have said all along that Parliament should get to vote on these things. I supported the Gina Miller challenge and was pleased with the result. I said yesterday that we should get rid of the Royal Prerogative even if it meant votes going against what I believed in. I believe in democracy. You don't.

    It is only people like you who want to overturn democratic decisions when you don't agree with them. You really are a shameful character.
    You need to address the fact that Brexit no longer carries public support. What breed of democracy are you espousing?
    You cannot be sure of that notwithstanding the polls.

    The one thing Windrush has done is highlight the huge support for a hostile immigration policy as shown in the you gov poll and immigration will continue to a big role in the outcome.

    If the UK cannot control its borders or laws and the EU set our trade policies expect opinion to change again.

    As far as I am concerned staying in a customs union is fine with me as no one, least of all Fox, has demonstrated how the UK would achieve the 100 or so trade deals presently with the EU in anything like the time that would not cause serious economic damage.

    Fox has been an utter disaster
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    Richard_TyndallRichard_Tyndall Posts: 30,945

    Brexit. A policy without logic, without coherence, and without support.

    How long must we pretend this is we want or need it?

    Agree but without support is stretching it
    A minority of the public - in poll after poll - do now support Brexit.

    No doubt an even smaller minority support the garbled mess we are going to end up with.
    If we have learnt anything in the last few years it is that time and time again opinion polls are proved to be worthless.
    We thus see that Brexitism is inherently undemocratic. Having won the referendum it now dispenses with any need of public - or indeed parliamentary, given recent rhetoric - support!
    Nope. Lying again. I have said all along that Parliament should get to vote on these things. I supported the Gina Miller challenge and was pleased with the result. I said yesterday that we should get rid of the Royal Prerogative even if it meant votes going against what I believed in. I believe in democracy. You don't.

    It is only people like you who want to overturn democratic decisions when you don't agree with them. You really are a shameful character.
    You need to address the fact that Brexit no longer carries public support. What breed of democracy are you espousing?
    Polls do not reflect how people will vote. That has been very clear for a long time now. You would disregard real votes that you oppose in favour of opinion polls that support your view. You need to address that as it sure as hell isn't democracy.
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    GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 20,847
    Can anyone point to (or provide) an intelligible summary of MaxFac?
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    Andy_CookeAndy_Cooke Posts: 4,818
    The view of Labour supporters is irrelevant.
    The key metric is the view of Conservative supporters. Only if they turn against Brexit will there be any change, and I believe they're still solid in favour.
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    williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 48,067

    Brexit. A policy without logic, without coherence, and without support.

    How long must we pretend this is we want or need it?

    Agree but without support is stretching it
    A minority of the public - in poll after poll - do now support Brexit.

    No doubt an even smaller minority support the garbled mess we are going to end up with.
    If we have learnt anything in the last few years it is that time and time again opinion polls are proved to be worthless.
    We thus see that Brexitism is inherently undemocratic. Having won the referendum it now dispenses with any need of public - or indeed parliamentary, given recent rhetoric - support!
    Nope. Lying again. I have said all along that Parliament should get to vote on these things. I supported the Gina Miller challenge and was pleased with the result. I said yesterday that we should get rid of the Royal Prerogative even if it meant votes going against what I believed in. I believe in democracy. You don't.

    It is only people like you who want to overturn democratic decisions when you don't agree with them. You really are a shameful character.
    You need to address the fact that Brexit no longer carries public support. What breed of democracy are you espousing?
    Polls do not reflect how people will vote. That has been very clear for a long time now.
    Indeed. Polls today show the public still fairly split, but in the context of a real second referendum the vote could be as much as 70-30 for Remain.
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    MortimerMortimer Posts: 13,942

    Brexit. A policy without logic, without coherence, and without support.

    How long must we pretend this is we want or need it?

    Agree but without support is stretching it
    A minority of the public - in poll after poll - do now support Brexit.

    No doubt an even smaller minority support the garbled mess we are going to end up with.
    If we have learnt anything in the last few years it is that time and time again opinion polls are proved to be worthless.
    We thus see that Brexitism is inherently undemocratic. Having won the referendum it now dispenses with any need of public - or indeed parliamentary, given recent rhetoric - support!
    Nope. Lying again. I have said all along that Parliament should get to vote on these things. I supported the Gina Miller challenge and was pleased with the result. I said yesterday that we should get rid of the Royal Prerogative even if it meant votes going against what I believed in. I believe in democracy. You don't.

    It is only people like you who want to overturn democratic decisions when you don't agree with them. You really are a shameful character.
    You need to address the fact that Brexit no longer carries public support. What breed of democracy are you espousing?
    Polls do not reflect how people will vote. That has been very clear for a long time now.
    Indeed. Polls today show the public still fairly split, but in the context of a real second referendum the vote could be as much as 70-30 for Remain.
    Some thought that last time. They didn't realise how unpopular the EU is in this country.
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    GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 20,847

    Brexit. A policy without logic, without coherence, and without support.

    How long must we pretend this is we want or need it?

    Agree but without support is stretching it
    A minority of the public - in poll after poll - do now support Brexit.

    No doubt an even smaller minority support the garbled mess we are going to end up with.
    If we have learnt anything in the last few years it is that time and time again opinion polls are proved to be worthless.
    We thus see that Brexitism is inherently undemocratic. Having won the referendum it now dispenses with any need of public - or indeed parliamentary, given recent rhetoric - support!
    Nope. Lying again. I have said all along that Parliament should get to vote on these things. I supported the Gina Miller challenge and was pleased with the result. I said yesterday that we should get rid of the Royal Prerogative even if it meant votes going against what I believed in. I believe in democracy. You don't.

    It is only people like you who want to overturn democratic decisions when you don't agree with them. You really are a shameful character.
    You need to address the fact that Brexit no longer carries public support. What breed of democracy are you espousing?
    Polls do not reflect how people will vote. That has been very clear for a long time now. You would disregard real votes that you oppose in favour of opinion polls that support your view. You need to address that as it sure as hell isn't democracy.
    Actually, no.

    The only way out of this shitshow is to reverse course via another referendum, I accept that.

    I also accept that a policy that determines the geopolitical and economic future of the country needs to rest on more than a narrow vote now two years in the past. A vote not carried in several constituent nations of this United Kingdom. A vote which disenfranchised long term expatriates. A vote of which there is good evidence of interference by a hostile power. And a vote which no longer - according to poll after poll - carries the support of the public.
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    TheWhiteRabbitTheWhiteRabbit Posts: 12,388
    This is Friday presumably

    I assume Shadsy will take his markets down before?
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    Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 60,298

    Can anyone point to (or provide) an intelligible summary of MaxFac?

    Not into face cream to be honest
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    volcanopetevolcanopete Posts: 2,078

    Can anyone point to (or provide) an intelligible summary of MaxFac?

    Not into face cream to be honest
    I normally use Boots own make for suncream.
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    AndrewAndrew Posts: 2,900
    edited May 2018

    And a vote which no longer - according to poll after poll - carries the support of the public.

    The polls look exactly as they did just before the referendum. Of course, that's why you actually vote .....
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    williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 48,067
    Andrew said:

    And a vote which no longer - according to poll after poll - carries the support of the public.

    The polls look exactly as they did just before the referendum.
    That's not true at all.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opinion_polling_for_the_United_Kingdom_European_Union_membership_referendum
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    StuartinromfordStuartinromford Posts: 14,442
    rcs1000 said:

    Brexit. A policy without logic, without coherence, and without support.

    How long must we pretend this is we want or need it?

    Agree but without support is stretching it
    Well on this poll, 53% of people think Brexit was wrong vs 47% who dont. Isn’t that a “clear majority”?
    Wake me up when it's 60:40.
    On current trends (which look pretty solid), that's just over a year away.

    Too late to stop Brexit, but... awkward for whoever is in charge then.
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    Richard_TyndallRichard_Tyndall Posts: 30,945

    Brexit. A policy without logic, without coherence, and without support.

    How long must we pretend this is we want or need it?

    Agree but without support is stretching it
    A minority of the public - in poll after poll - do now support Brexit.

    No doubt an even smaller minority support the garbled mess we are going to end up with.
    If we have learnt anything in the last few years it is that time and time again opinion polls are proved to be worthless.
    We thus see that Brexitism is inherently undemocratic. Having won the referendum it now dispenses with any need of public - or indeed parliamentary, given recent rhetoric - support!
    Nope. Lying again. I have said all along that Parliament should get to vote on these things. I supported the Gina Miller challenge and was pleased with the result. I said yesterday that we should get rid of the Royal Prerogative even if it meant votes going against what I believed in. I believe in democracy. You don't.

    It is only people like you who want to overturn democratic decisions when you don't agree with them. You really are a shameful character.
    You need to address the fact that Brexit no longer carries public support. What breed of democracy are you espousing?
    Polls do not reflect how people will vote. That has been very clear for a long time now.
    Indeed. Polls today show the public still fairly split, but in the context of a real second referendum the vote could be as much as 70-30 for Remain.
    It could easily be the same for Leave. People tend to get annoyed when politicians start asking the same question over and over again and don't accept the result.
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    RobDRobD Posts: 58,967
    edited May 2018
    Not sure if we’ll have a (somewhat) live results spreadsheet tomorrow night. Haven’t had the time this year to populate all the necessary information. Sad times.
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    williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 48,067

    Brexit. A policy without logic, without coherence, and without support.

    How long must we pretend this is we want or need it?

    Agree but without support is stretching it
    A minority of the public - in poll after poll - do now support Brexit.

    No doubt an even smaller minority support the garbled mess we are going to end up with.
    If we have learnt anything in the last few years it is that time and time again opinion polls are proved to be worthless.
    We thus see that Brexitism is inherently undemocratic. Having won the referendum it now dispenses with any need of public - or indeed parliamentary, given recent rhetoric - support!
    Nope. Lying again. I have said all along that Parliament should get to vote on these things. I supported the Gina Miller challenge and was pleased with the result. I said yesterday that we should get rid of the Royal Prerogative even if it meant votes going against what I believed in. I believe in democracy. You don't.

    It is only people like you who want to overturn democratic decisions when you don't agree with them. You really are a shameful character.
    You need to address the fact that Brexit no longer carries public support. What breed of democracy are you espousing?
    Polls do not reflect how people will vote. That has been very clear for a long time now.
    Indeed. Polls today show the public still fairly split, but in the context of a real second referendum the vote could be as much as 70-30 for Remain.
    It could easily be the same for Leave. People tend to get annoyed when politicians start asking the same question over and over again and don't accept the result.
    How do you picture the Vote Leave campaign next time? You won't have any sunny optimism to run on, and no politician with any ambition will want to go near it.
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    Richard_TyndallRichard_Tyndall Posts: 30,945


    Actually, no.

    The only way out of this shitshow is to reverse course via another referendum, I accept that.

    I also accept that a policy that determines the geopolitical and economic future of the country needs to rest on more than a narrow vote now two years in the past. A vote not carried in several constituent nations of this United Kingdom. A vote which disenfranchised long term expatriates. A vote of which there is good evidence of interference by a hostile power. And a vote which no longer - according to poll after poll - carries the support of the public.

    You do not have another vote until you have actually implemented the result of the first one. There is no evidence of interference by a hostile power - unless you count the EU as a hostile power and I am pretty sure you don't.

    Of course you will look for reasons to undermine the legitimacy of the vote. As I say, you only seem to like the concept of democracy when your side wins.
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    GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 20,847

    Brexit. A policy without logic, without coherence, and without support.

    How long must we pretend this is we want or need it?

    Agree but without support is stretching it
    A minority of the public - in poll after poll - do now support Brexit.

    No doubt an even smaller minority support the garbled mess we are going to end up with.
    If we have learnt anything in the last few years it is that time and time again opinion polls are proved to be worthless.
    We thus see that Brexitism is inherently undemocratic. Having won the referendum it now dispenses with any need of public - or indeed parliamentary, given recent rhetoric - support!
    Nope. Lying again. I have said all along that Parliament should get to vote on these things. I supported the Gina Miller challenge and was pleased with the result. I said yesterday that we should get rid of the Royal Prerogative even if it meant votes going against what I believed in. I believe in democracy. You don't.

    It is only people like you who want to overturn democratic decisions when you don't agree with them. You really are a shameful character.
    You need to address the fact that Brexit no longer carries public support. What breed of democracy are you espousing?
    Polls do not reflect how people will vote. That has been very clear for a long time now.
    Indeed. Polls today show the public still fairly split, but in the context of a real second referendum the vote could be as much as 70-30 for Remain.
    It could easily be the same for Leave. People tend to get annoyed when politicians start asking the same question over and over again and don't accept the result.
    How do you picture the Vote Leave campaign next time? You won't have any sunny optimism to run on, and no politician with any ambition will want to go near it.
    Can almost imagine a vote on the deal, tho.

    https://twitter.com/mrjamesob/status/991582291997745152?s=21
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    MortimerMortimer Posts: 13,942
    edited May 2018

    Brexit. A policy without logic, without coherence, and without support.

    How long must we pretend this is we want or need it?

    Agree but without support is stretching it
    A minority of the public - in poll after poll - do now support Brexit.

    No doubt an even smaller minority support the garbled mess we are going to end up with.
    If we have learnt anything in the last few years it is that time and time again opinion polls are proved to be worthless.
    We thus see that Brexitism is inherently undemocratic. Having won the referendum it now dispenses with any need of public - or indeed parliamentary, given recent rhetoric - support!
    Nope. Lying again. I have said all along that Parliament should get to vote on these things. I supported the Gina Miller challenge and was pleased with the result. I said yesterday that we should get rid of the Royal Prerogative even if it meant votes going against what I believed in. I believe in democracy. You don't.

    It is only people like you who want to overturn democratic decisions when you don't agree with them. You really are a shameful character.
    You need to address the fact that Brexit no longer carries public support. What breed of democracy are you espousing?
    Polls do not reflect how people will vote. That has been very clear for a long time now.
    Indeed. Polls today show the public still fairly split, but in the context of a real second referendum the vote could be as much as 70-30 for Remain.
    It could easily be the same for Leave. People tend to get annoyed when politicians start asking the same question over and over again and don't accept the result.
    How do you picture the Vote Leave campaign next time? You won't have any sunny optimism to run on, and no politician with any ambition will want to go near it.
    Can almost imagine a vote on the deal, tho.

    https://twitter.com/mrjamesob/status/991582291997745152?s=21
    People aren't allowed to change their minds over 6 years, when it becomes clear that the views and policies of the UK and the EU are diverging...?
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    AndrewAndrew Posts: 2,900

    Last Yougov had a remain lead of +4, Pop +10, Ipsos +3, Opinium -1, Comres +8, TNS -2, Survation +1, Orb +7. Average of +3.75

    Today's Yougov: wrong to leave is +3.

    It's not the same question of course, but it's the closest we'll get.

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    Torby_FennelTorby_Fennel Posts: 438
    It's been another fun day of delivering leaflets - mostly in the pouring rain. My fingers actually turned orange from the ink... :D
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    JonathanJonathan Posts: 20,901
    Mortimer said:

    Brexit. A policy without logic, without coherence, and without support.

    How long must we pretend this is we want or need it?

    Agree but without support is stretching it
    A minority of the public - in poll after poll - do now support Brexit.

    No doubt an even smaller minority support the garbled mess we are going to end up with.
    If we have learnt anything in the last few years it is that time and time again opinion polls are proved to be worthless.
    We thus see that Brexitism is inherently undemocratic. Having won the referendum it now dispenses with any need of public - or indeed parliamentary, given recent rhetoric - support!
    Nope. Lying again. I have said all along that Parliament should get to vote on these things. I supported the Gina Miller challenge and was pleased with the result. I said yesterday that we should get rid of the Royal Prerogative even if it meant votes going against what I believed in. I believe in democracy. You don't.

    It is only people like you who want to overturn democratic decisions when you don't agree with them. You really are a shameful character.
    You need to address the fact that Brexit no longer carries public support. What breed of democracy are you espousing?
    Polls do not reflect how people will vote. That has been very clear for a long time now.
    Indeed. Polls today show the public still fairly split, but in the context of a real second referendum the vote could be as much as 70-30 for Remain.
    It could easily be the same for Leave. People tend to get annoyed when politicians start asking the same question over and over again and don't accept the result.
    How do you picture the Vote Leave campaign next time? You won't have any sunny optimism to run on, and no politician with any ambition will want to go near it.
    Can almost imagine a vote on the deal, tho.

    https://twitter.com/mrjamesob/status/991582291997745152?s=21
    People aren't allowed to change their minds over 6 years, when it becomes clear that the views and policies of the UK and the EU are diverging...?
    Hmmmm. So if you are Liam Fox you can change your mind, but the British people are not allowed to even when new information comes to light.
This discussion has been closed.