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politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » More than two decades after leaving Downing Street and in t

SystemSystem Posts: 11,002
edited April 2013 in General

politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » More than two decades after leaving Downing Street and in the week of her demise the country is still totally split over Mrs. Thatcher

According to newspaper reports this morning there’s been a huge row between Number 10 and the speaker, John Bercow, over Mrs. Thatcher. Bercow didn’t the recall of parliament or the changing of the parliamentary time-table for next Wednesday – the day of the funeral.

Read the full story here


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Comments

  • dr_spyndr_spyn Posts: 11,279
    First - like Margaret Thatcher - best Post War PM.

    Ding Dong the witch tops I tunes listing. MGM must be raking it in as they toast MHT.
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 60,933
    She isn't having a funeral like the Queen Mother/Diana. It isn't a state funeral and she isn't lying-in-state.
  • dr_spyndr_spyn Posts: 11,279
    OGH - Glenda Jackson - few would know her as Enver Hodges...
  • PlatoPlato Posts: 15,724
    dr_spyn said:

    OGH - Glenda Jackson - few would know her as Enver Hodges...

    Judging by that speech more like Envy Hodges.
  • AveryLPAveryLP Posts: 7,815
    edited April 2013
    Dave, Sam and their three children will be staying with Frau Merkel and Professor Joachim Sauer this weekend at Schloss Meseburg. Meseburg is a baroque castle in Saxony-Anhalt, restored to its former glory by the Messerschmidt Foundation at a cost of 25 million Euros.

    Following restoration, the foundation persuaded Merkel to lease the property as the official guesthouse of the Germany government with Bush being the first notable guest.

    A touch grander than Chequers, we all hope the young Cams are not overawed by their new surroundings.

    image

    [Creation Commons licence for photo permitting sharing]

    PBers unfortunate enough not to receive an official invitation may sample some of the delights of the castle at cost.

    See: http://www.schlosswirt-meseberg.de/
  • SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 38,879
    AveryLP said:

    Dave, Sam and their three children will be staying with Frau Merkel and Professor Joachim Sauer this weekend at Schloss Meseburg. Meseburg is a baroque castle in Saxony-Anhalt, restored to its former glory by the Messerschmidt Foundation at a cost of 25 million Euros.

    Following restoration, the foundation persuaded Merkel to lease the property as the official guesthouse of the Germany government with Bush being the first notable guest.

    A touch grander than Chequers, we all hope the young Cams are not overawed by their new surroundings.

    image

    [Creation Commons licence for photo permitting sharing]

    What child would not want to spend a weekend with Frau Merkel and Professor Joachim Sauer. It sounds like a barrel of laughs!!

  • anothernickanothernick Posts: 3,547
    Cameron's on a loser here - Thatcher's death reminds those who disliked her why they don't vote Tory and it reminds those who liked her how difficult her successors as Tory leader have found it to fill her shoes. The grandiloquent funeral will only make things worse for him.
  • SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 38,879
    Deserves is not the same as should have.

    But she is certainly a divisive figure.
  • GIN1138GIN1138 Posts: 20,697
    edited April 2013
    Now, you know I'm not Camerons biggest fan at the moment, but I don't really see how Dave can be blamed for Mrs Thatcher having a "ceremonial" funeral given that Blair and Brown made the funeral arrangements years ago.
  • BobajobBobajob Posts: 1,536
    Time to move on. Any decent tips for the Masters guys?
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 59,540
    FPT:

    Cameron has now fatally undermined the nuclear deterrent by not clearly answering that he would be prepared to order their use.

    List the other PMs who said they would definitely use it.

    The whole point of deterence is it creates uncertainty....Cameron gave exactly the same answer as his predecessors.....
  • PlatoPlato Posts: 15,724
    edited April 2013
    It's not a State funeral - its a ceremonial funeral and frankly given that Oborne changes his opinion more often than his underwear - I have no time for him.
  • GIN1138GIN1138 Posts: 20,697
    Also, anybody see the problem with this question:

    "Margaret Thatcher deserves a ceremonial funeral with full military honours like the Queen Mother and Princess Diana"

    It's quite obviously asking the responder to draw a comparisson between Thatcher and Queen Mother/Diana. Even I'd have to think whether Thatcher really deserved a send off like the lovely Queen Ma and the saintly Diana...

    If you asked the question without comparing Fatch to the Queen M and Di I bet you'd get a more neutral answer.

    Typically sneaky of The Mirror. ;)
  • BobajobBobajob Posts: 1,536
    Plato said:

    It's not a State funeral - its a ceremonial funeral and frankly given that Oborne changes his opinion more often than his underwear - I have no time for him.
    For all intents and purposes it's a state funeral – that is how it will be interpreted by the public.

    That all said, I agree with Gin that Dave can hardly be blamed for it given that the Labour administration approved the thing.
  • SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 38,879
    Bobajob said:

    Time to move on. Any decent tips for the Masters guys?

    Don't bother travelling to Augusta, the hotels are full and the tickets are all sold. Stay at home and watch it on the telly.

  • BenMBenM Posts: 1,795
    edited April 2013
    38% agree + 17% don't give a toss (my response I think) = 55% fine with it.
  • BobajobBobajob Posts: 1,536
    Vanilla update – I have now had to cancel my password SIX times and can only post on a computer, not on my phone.

    The system sucks and should be binned forthwith – it's killing the site, as the lack of posts show.
  • dr_spyndr_spyn Posts: 11,279
    edited April 2013
    Lord Kinnock - former Labour Leader of the Opposition - will not be present because of a commitment to attend the funeral of a former local councillor in Wales.

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-22109759

    Does Barroso have the decency to find a similar excuse? Will Gordon Brown be cross checking his engagement book and praying at the same time...
  • MBoyMBoy Posts: 104
    edited April 2013
    The Tories are badly overplaying the Thatcher cards and it's going to hurt them unless they rein in their hubris soon.
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 59,540
    More data from Survation:

    Margaret Thatcher changed Britain for the better: Net agree: +4
    Cameron was right to describe MT as greatest British peacetime PM: +5

    http://survation.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/04/April-Mirror-Tables-Thatcher.pdf
  • GIN1138GIN1138 Posts: 20,697
    Plato said:

    It's not a State funeral - its a ceremonial funeral and frankly given that Oborne changes his opinion more often than his underwear - I have no time for him.
    Oborne's an idiot.

    I remember when he wrote that Gordon Brown was going to bring in a new era of honesty and transparency after the Blair years. :^O

  • TykejohnnoTykejohnno Posts: 7,362
    @Mike Smithson,If this polling is right Dave might have misread the public mood

    So will have your new political hero ed miliband mr Smithson,some of your comments about miliband lately = pass me the sick bag.

    ;-)


  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 60,933
    Mr. Bobajob, I'm sorry to hear that. It's most peculiar that some (not sure if anyone else has confirmed this is the case) have such an issue and others don't.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 40,950
    @Bobajob

    in looking in the Mirror this morning (don't ask - ok it was for the funeral route, as you asked), I noticed they had a picture of a state funeral (as evidenced by the sailors) and not a ceremonial funeral (as would have been evidenced by the presence of King's Tp, RHA) to show which one, according to the Mirror, she shouldn't have.

    Confused?
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 59,540
    MBoy said:

    The Tories are badly overplaying the Thatcher cards and it's going to hurt them unless they rein in their hubris soon.

    Like the 'Bedroom Tax' was going to hurt them?

    Ding Dong!

  • philiphphiliph Posts: 4,704
    'If this polling is right Dave might have misread the public mood'

    What a grand statement to remind us that leaders should lead. The concept of rule by opinion poll is abhorrent.

    The constant use of focus groups and the fear of bad opinion polls is killing leadership. Discuss.
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 41,684
    FPT.
    Hurst , sounds reasonable to me. I pay £114 per month ( gas and electricity ) for a 4 bed detached up here in the frozen North. Must say I hardly ever look at the bills so no idea how much it is per quarter but it does cover me over the year which seems a bit of a bargain to me..
  • BobajobBobajob Posts: 1,536

    Mr. Bobajob, I'm sorry to hear that. It's most peculiar that some (not sure if anyone else has confirmed this is the case) have such an issue and others don't.

    Thanks Morris. I effectively cannot participate in debate on the site, and while I am sure many members will see that as a mercy, I do miss it.

    I hope Mike will rid us of this dire system soon. It really is a dreadful piece of software.

  • SlackbladderSlackbladder Posts: 9,704
    I'm going to Cyprus in July... that'll be interesting.
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 59,540
    I thought Frank Field raised some thoughtful points in his comments on Thatcher yesterday:

    "I want to mention three areas where we are still grappling with her legacy, and with which Members on both Front Benches have not managed to come to terms. First, there is the great question of riches. She was not satisfied with the results of her Government, so should we? Secondly, despite all the gains that the market economy has given this country, there are clearly some areas—part of my constituency is one of them—that its powers cannot reach. We have not come up with policies that can move those areas back to full employment. How do we raise demand in those areas specifically, and how do we ensure that the supply side, to which most of us are now committed, can also take effect through our schools?

    The third big area is a problem in our country that she thought she had solved but that now appears in a different guise. We have mentioned, even quite properly on the Opposition Benches, that one of her great struggles was to bring the trade unions within the law decided by this House—not the law that they thought they would abide by. I have been perplexed by some of the recent newspaper coverage of her stewardship, much of which has stated that the country was previously ungovernable. It was governable all right, but not from here and not by the Government elected by the people.

    What would Mrs Thatcher say about a global economy, part of which she was so responsible for creating, in which great world companies can choose whether or not they pay taxes and whether giving a donation to the Treasury might be an adequate performance of their duties instead? I would be very surprised if she did not see that as a challenge to our authority, and one with which we need to grapple. All three areas are part of the current agenda for our politics, and that is part of her legacy. I wonder whether she, if still in power, would not be tackling that in a more resolute way than we are currently."

    http://www.publications.parliament.uk/pa/cm201213/cmhansrd/cm130410/debtext/130410-0001.htm#1304104000318
  • BobajobBobajob Posts: 1,536

    MBoy said:

    The Tories are badly overplaying the Thatcher cards and it's going to hurt them unless they rein in their hubris soon.

    Like the 'Bedroom Tax' was going to hurt them?

    Ding Dong!

    You have seen the latest polls? Ding dong indeed.

  • The question was loaded - the motives of the Mirror are what needs to be questioned. As for Bercow - no surprises there.
  • BobajobBobajob Posts: 1,536
    Don't bother travelling to Augusta, the hotels are full and the tickets are all sold. Stay at home and watch it on the telly.



    Thanks SO :)

  • AveryLPAveryLP Posts: 7,815
    I am afraid that the decision to turn Lady Thatcher’s funeral into a state occasion was a constitutional innovation and, like almost all such innovations, both foolish and wrong.

    Utter twaddle from Peter Oborne.

    The Queen made the decision to grant a ceremonial funeral to Lady Thatcher on the advice of Tony Blair, a Labour Prime Minister supported by the Privy Council. This decision was subsequently supported both by Gordon Brown and David Cameron.

    There are plenty of precedents for the grant of State Funerals to "divisive" leaders. Sir Edward Carson, the very contentious leader of the Ulster Unionists was given a State Funeral in 1936 as was Field Marshal Earl Haig, the very controversial WWI military leader.

    Neither these two were even Prime Ministers. Of the latter, the Duke of Wellington, Lord Palmerston, William Gladstone and Sir Winston Churchill were all given state funerals.

    So Oborne is talking utter nonsense by saying that turning Thatcher's funeral into a "state occasion" is a "constitutional innovation".

    It is the mark of a civilised society that it honours its glorious dead.






  • SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 38,879

    I'm going to Cyprus in July... that'll be interesting.

    I imagine there wil not be many Germans there with you.

    "Less than a month after deal was agreed the bailout bill has risen to €23bn – larger than the size of the Cypriot economy"

  • GIN1138GIN1138 Posts: 20,697
    @boba

    Vanilla's working OK for me.

    I do find myself having to login with annoying frequency and I have noticed of few funny glitches when you edit posts, but otherwise it seems a big improvement on New Disqus which become completely incomprehensible in the end.
  • dr_spyndr_spyn Posts: 11,279
    @CarlottaVance

    Amazon predator or producer? Trendy Left download Tramp Down The Dirt and Ding Dong The Witch is dead pushing up sales, and profits. Are they unethical tax evaders or have they got to go back for re-education. After the death of The Ironic Lady.
  • TykejohnnoTykejohnno Posts: 7,362
    Labour at war: Tony Blair launches strident attack on Ed Miliband's retreat to being a 1980s-style party of protest

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2307404/Labour-war-Tony-Blair-launches-strident-attack-Ed-Milibands-retreat-1980s-style-party-protest.html

    I will admit,the attack by blair is good news for miliband,especially to the left and labours base support.
  • HurstLlamaHurstLlama Posts: 9,098
    "The constant use of focus groups and the fear of bad opinion polls is killing leadership. Discuss."

    Leadership was once defined to me as, "Getting your people to do what their own sense of self-preservation tells them they shouldn't". Which would support your view, finding out what people want to do and then jumping in front shouting, "Follow me", ain't leadership.

    On the other hand, lesson 1 on day 1 of the junior NCOs course is "Never give an order unless you are pretty sure it is going to be obeyed".
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 59,540
    edited April 2013
    Bobajob said:



    You have seen the latest polls? Ding dong indeed.

    All within MOE of a 10 point Labour lead.......so where's the shift?

  • OblitusSumMeOblitusSumMe Posts: 9,143

    FPT:

    Cameron has now fatally undermined the nuclear deterrent by not clearly answering that he would be prepared to order their use.

    List the other PMs who said they would definitely use it.

    The whole point of deterence is it creates uncertainty....Cameron gave exactly the same answer as his predecessors.....
    Well, his wording surprised me, but it does seem remarkably similar to Blair's in 2006:
    The whole point about the deterrent is not to create the circumstances in which it can be used but on the contrary to try to create circumstances in which it is never used.
    On the other hand, Callaghan is quoted by the BBC as having this to say:
    if we had got to that point where it was, I felt, necessary to do it - then I would have done it
  • RichardNabaviRichardNabavi Posts: 3,413
    edited April 2013
    I think this is all froth. Views won't change; anyone blind enough not to recognise the massive contribution Maggie made to our prosperity, freedom and national unity is responding to myth, not fact, so is imprevious to reason. Such views won't be shifted by pointing out that she didn't close huge chunks of the mining industry, that manufacturing did quite well under her governments, or that, far from being divisive, the biggest change to Britain during her time was that, in a few short years, we moved completely away from confrontational Them vs Us workplaces, riven by wildcat strikes, intimidation, and a rigid division between Managers vs Workers, who saw each other as enemies.

    Like the summer riots, the aftermath of Lady Thatcher's death seems a big political story whilst it is happening, but will rapidly fade from consciousness.
  • Re Vanilla - it saved my password so I never have to log-in. Please can we have a like/dislike button.
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 41,684
    scampi said:

    Re Vanilla - it saved my password so I never have to log-in. Please can we have a like/dislike button.

    It has lost mine once and made me get a new password. Other than that no issues other than having to use one that is impossible to remember to get it strong enough to pass.
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 59,540

    Callaghan is quoted by the BBC

    9 years after he left office.....

  • OblitusSumMeOblitusSumMe Posts: 9,143
    Bobajob said:

    Vanilla update – I have now had to cancel my password SIX times and can only post on a computer, not on my phone.

    The system sucks and should be binned forthwith – it's killing the site, as the lack of posts show.

    Shrug. Any time I can't remember my ridiculously long password I just create a new username. It at least ensures that I mostly only post when I have something I really want to say, and I fear the consequent reduction in my number of posts is greatly appreciated, rather than deplored, as it would be for a number of other posters no doubt.
  • GIN1138GIN1138 Posts: 20,697
    Which PB members will be at The Funeral then?

    JackW is a given. He was at Wellingtons seond off... He can't miss Thatchers.

    Anybody else?
  • Health and Safety Executive launches criminal investigation into the death of diabetic Gillian Astbury at Stafford Hospital in 2007

    https://twitter.com/skynewsbreak/status/322335113587326976
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 38,546

    FPT:

    Cameron has now fatally undermined the nuclear deterrent by not clearly answering that he would be prepared to order their use.

    List the other PMs who said they would definitely use it.

    The whole point of deterence is it creates uncertainty....Cameron gave exactly the same answer as his predecessors.....
    Well, his wording surprised me, but it does seem remarkably similar to Blair's in 2006:
    The whole point about the deterrent is not to create the circumstances in which it can be used but on the contrary to try to create circumstances in which it is never used.
    On the other hand, Callaghan is quoted by the BBC as having this to say:
    if we had got to that point where it was, I felt, necessary to do it - then I would have done it
    As I asked on FPT, how would you expect any PM to answer the question, especially given that North Korea was mentioned in the question? If he replies 'yes', it inflames a tense and unstable situation. Neither can he say 'no', or the deterrence effect gets weakened.

    Instead he goes for a sentence which says neither. I honestly can't see the problem which his reply.
  • HurstLlamaHurstLlama Posts: 9,098
    "... as was Field Marshal Earl Haig, the very controversial WWI military leader."

    Sorry, Mr. Pole, Haig was not a very controversial military leader in 1928 when his funeral took place. Witness the huge numbers of WW1 veterans who turned out to see the man off.

    Haig became controversial later on, starting in the thirties, but the pendulum of opinion has been swinging back over the past twenty years or so as modern historians cut through the crap.
  • @Malcolm

    " Other than that no issues other than having to use one that is impossible to remember to get it strong enough to pass."

    I changed mine after the initial complex one and it had no problem with a simple one.
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 59,540
    edited April 2013
    Excellent, thoughtful piece from Rafael Behr:

    http://www.newstatesman.com/politics/2013/04/thatchers-victories-are-too-old-and-complete-help-cameron

    "The problem that poses for the Conservatives is made all the greater by the confluence at the very top of party – incarnate in David Cameron - of the post-Thatcher economic consensus and a pre-Thatcher cultural and social class hierarchy. Cameron, a second-generation Thatcherite with patrician Shire Tory sensibilities and royal relations is about the least plausible candidate you might find to lead a transformative economic, social or political revolution."

    And, I might add, Ed Miliband, scion of the North London Marxist elite and Brownian mastermind seems a similarly unlikely transformative leader....
  • AveryLPAveryLP Posts: 7,815
    edited April 2013
    The full list:

    Sir Philip Sidney (1586)
    Admiral Robert Blake (1657)
    Sir Isaac Newton (1727)
    The Viscount Nelson (1806)
    The Duke of Wellington (1852)
    The Viscount Palmerston (1865)
    Lord Napier of Magdala (1890)
    The Rt Hon William Gladstone (1898)
    The Earl Roberts of Kandahar (1914)
    The Earl Haig (1928)
    The Lord Carson (1935)
    The Rt Hon Sir Winston Churchill (1965)
    The Rt Hon Baroness Thatcher (2013)*

    *Royal Ceremonial Funeral. All others full State Funerals.
  • OblitusSumMeOblitusSumMe Posts: 9,143

    "The constant use of focus groups and the fear of bad opinion polls is killing leadership. Discuss."

    Leadership was once defined to me as, "Getting your people to do what their own sense of self-preservation tells them they shouldn't". Which would support your view, finding out what people want to do and then jumping in front shouting, "Follow me", ain't leadership.

    On the other hand, lesson 1 on day 1 of the junior NCOs course is "Never give an order unless you are pretty sure it is going to be obeyed".

    I have found that both of these apply to parenting.
  • MBoyMBoy Posts: 104
    @RichardNabavi - You're right, I'm sure everyone will have forgotten all this divisive nonsense in 3 weeks time ready for the elections. The current record low polls will have recovered plenty by then.

    Silly, silly Tories. You just couldn't help it could you - you couldn't let Thatcher's death and funeral be a quiet and dignified affair... you had to pump it up and milk it and use it for one last go at stamping Maggie onto everyone who didn't like her.

    I started the week with a fairly positive view of Thatcher's legacy. But the hubris we've seen since has reminded me that the people who built and promoted Thatcherism are a generally unpleasant bunch with utter contempt for people who think differently.

    Ultimately, as well as hurting your own polling, you're hurting her final memory, by consigning it to be yet another divisive circus.
  • MBoyMBoy Posts: 104
    @CarlottaVance - record low opinion polls not your definition of being hurt then? LOL.
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 59,540
    MBoy said:

    @CarlottaVance - record low opinion polls not your definition of being hurt then? LOL.

    Which part of 'Margin of Error' is unclear?

  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 59,540
    Tony is welcomed back into the Labour fold.

    Owen Jones tweets: "I see Tony Blair offering Ed Miliband advice. Maybe stick to giving Kazakhstan's dictator advice for the princely sum of $13m a year, Tony?"
  • HurstLlamaHurstLlama Posts: 9,098

    "The constant use of focus groups and the fear of bad opinion polls is killing leadership. Discuss."

    Leadership was once defined to me as, "Getting your people to do what their own sense of self-preservation tells them they shouldn't". Which would support your view, finding out what people want to do and then jumping in front shouting, "Follow me", ain't leadership.

    On the other hand, lesson 1 on day 1 of the junior NCOs course is "Never give an order unless you are pretty sure it is going to be obeyed".

    I have found that both of these apply to parenting.

    Quite right, and so they should. So too does the motto of the army's leadership school (Sandhurst), "Serve to lead".
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 59,540
    Tony welcomed back by the right:

    "Tony Blair can’t escape blame for the debt"

    http://blogs.spectator.co.uk/coffeehouse/2013/04/tony-blair-cant-escape-blame-for-the-debt/
  • FluffyThoughtsFluffyThoughts Posts: 2,420
    There is a protocol for a RN nuclear missile-launch (apparently). It does not involve any direct political impetus....
  • AveryLPAveryLP Posts: 7,815

    "... as was Field Marshal Earl Haig, the very controversial WWI military leader."

    Sorry, Mr. Pole, Haig was not a very controversial military leader in 1928 when his funeral took place. Witness the huge numbers of WW1 veterans who turned out to see the man off.

    Haig became controversial later on, starting in the thirties, but the pendulum of opinion has been swinging back over the past twenty years or so as modern historians cut through the crap.

    I accept your general conclusion but Haig was not without his critics during his lifetime. Sir Winston Churchill was a notable example.
  • AveryLPAveryLP Posts: 7,815
    edited April 2013
    tim said:

    ... she'll still be dead on Monday...

    Oh you of little faith, tim.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 40,950
    @CarlottaVance

    interesting though - why now to come back with what he knew would be an inflammatory interview? Does he really believe that he is doing the best thing for Labour? Does he want to re-get involved in party politics? Is he somehow a bit miffed at all this "greatest PM ever not T Blair" thing?

    Genuinely perplexed....
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 59,540
    TOPPING said:

    @CarlottaVance

    interesting though - why now to come back with what he knew would be an inflammatory interview? Does he really believe that he is doing the best thing for Labour? Does he want to re-get involved in party politics? Is he somehow a bit miffed at all this "greatest PM ever not T Blair" thing?

    Genuinely perplexed....

    There is a danger of over analysing these things - its a Centenary edition, so I guess he had been asked to write 'something' - and he's trying to be as helpful as possible without perjuring himself.....

  • GIN1138GIN1138 Posts: 20,697
    MBoy said:



    Silly, silly Tories. You just couldn't help it could you - you couldn't let Thatcher's death and funeral be a quiet and dignified affair... you had to pump it up and milk it and use it for one last go at stamping Maggie onto everyone who didn't like her.

    Eh? What on earth are you on about?

  • AveryLPAveryLP Posts: 7,815
    @MBoy

    I started the week with a fairly positive view of Thatcher's legacy.

    You could always try Roger's solution.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 40,950
    @Carlotta

    I don't think TBlair has an uncalculating breath in his body....
  • AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 30,340
    It's a little rich to expect the Thatcher estate to pay for a state-provided ceremonial funeral. I can understand the view that Margaret Thatcher should not have been provided with a ceremonial funeral (I'm pretty ambivalent on the subject). But if she is to be given one, the state has to pay.

    If you throw a party for a guest of honour, you don't send them an invoice afterwards for the cost.
  • MBoyMBoy Posts: 104
    Agreed - Richard Nabavi's post yesterday was spot on.
  • hughphughp Posts: 11
    Avery LP - List of State Funerals etc. What an interesting list ! The decision to have a state funeral for Lord Carson seems really strange, and the decision to have one for Lord Napier of Magdala (whose only claim to fame was a very easy military victory over the Emperor of Ethiopia) must have been questionable even at the time, but otherwise the choice of who to have state funerals for seems to have been remarkably sound, and reflects unexpected credit on those who took the necessary decisions.
  • AndreaParma_82AndreaParma_82 Posts: 4,714
    edited April 2013
    Kinnock won't go to Thatcher's funeral because it's taking place on the same day of the funeral of former Islwyn Cllr Olga Griffiths.
  • anothernickanothernick Posts: 3,547
    TOPPING said:

    @CarlottaVance

    interesting though - why now to come back with what he knew would be an inflammatory interview? Does he really believe that he is doing the best thing for Labour? Does he want to re-get involved in party politics? Is he somehow a bit miffed at all this "greatest PM ever not T Blair" thing?

    Genuinely perplexed....

    Unfortunately he's suffering from ex-pmitis, a disease which involves constantly reminding everyone how he got everything right when he was in office and that his successors are sadly diminishing his legacy. Another suffer of the same disease died earlier this week from unrelated causes.
  • HurstLlamaHurstLlama Posts: 9,098
    AveryLP said:

    "... as was Field Marshal Earl Haig, the very controversial WWI military leader."

    Sorry, Mr. Pole, Haig was not a very controversial military leader in 1928 when his funeral took place. Witness the huge numbers of WW1 veterans who turned out to see the man off.

    Haig became controversial later on, starting in the thirties, but the pendulum of opinion has been swinging back over the past twenty years or so as modern historians cut through the crap.

    I accept your general conclusion but Haig was not without his critics during his lifetime. Sir Winston Churchill was a notable example.
    True, Mr. Pole. Churchill was I think a critic on paper in 1926, and of course Lloyd-George hated Haig from the get-go, but never found the courage to say so publicly until 1936 when the first revisionism movement was in full swing (what were we saying about leadership and politicians).

    Churchill was always going to criticise Haig though. Haig maintained that the only way WW1 could be won was on the Western Front. Churchill was always in WW1, and WW2 come to that, looking for an indirect route that would incur fewer casualties. The tragedy is both men were correct.
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 59,540
    "Nothing like a former PM poking their nose into your business, eh? John Major experienced what Daniel Finkelstein this week delicately described as ‘sub-optimal’ behaviour from Margaret Thatcher when he was in office, and today Ed Miliband has his own helpful little missive from his own former leader, telling him that if only he were just like Tony Blair, then everything would be OK."

    http://blogs.spectator.co.uk/coffeehouse/2013/04/blairs-warning-to-miliband-about-the-policy-abattoir/
  • GIN1138GIN1138 Posts: 20,697
    edited April 2013
    Why did Gladstone get a state funeral but not his great rival Disraeli?
  • Mick_PorkMick_Pork Posts: 6,530
    The tea party tories really need to bang on about welfare and Thatcher more.

    After all, banging on about EU and immigration worked so well for them.
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 59,540
    As Paul Waugh tweets:

    Cam on Thatcher: "Times change and diff approaches are needed".

    EdM on Blair: "Pol parties hv to move forwards not backwards"

    Though in fairness, one left office 23 years ago, the other 6.....
  • MBoyMBoy Posts: 104
    I believe Disraeli rejected the idea when offered.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 38,546
    A criminal investigation has been launched to the death of a woman who died in Stafford hospital in 2010.

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-22112198

    As well as the excellent article in Private Eye a few weeks ago into Stafford, the LRB have devled deeper into the figures. Well worth a read.

    http://www.lrb.co.uk/v35/n07/paul-taylor/rigging-the-death-rate

  • GIN1138GIN1138 Posts: 20,697
    MBoy said:

    I believe Disraeli rejected the idea when offered.

    Oh right. Thanks. :)

  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 31,724
    Both list and the actual attenders look a bit of an odd collection. Mandela's representative invited, but FW de Klerk's coming!
  • HurstLlamaHurstLlama Posts: 9,098
    hughp said:

    Avery LP - List of State Funerals etc. What an interesting list ! The decision to have a state funeral for Lord Carson seems really strange, and the decision to have one for Lord Napier of Magdala (whose only claim to fame was a very easy military victory over the Emperor of Ethiopia) must have been questionable even at the time, but otherwise the choice of who to have state funerals for seems to have been remarkably sound, and reflects unexpected credit on those who took the necessary decisions.

    I dunno about Carson, but I think you are underestimating the scale of Napier's victory in the Ethiopian Campaign both in the practicalities of what he did and, more importantly, on the public psyche. He was a genuine Victorian hero and I can't imagine there was any controversy about his funeral at the time.

  • AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 30,340
    @CarlottaVance It's a fair point for both Ed Miliband and David Cameron to make. I'm not convinced, however, that either has found the appropriate different approach or moved forward. Both look like creatures of their times rather than leaders of their times.
  • AveryLPAveryLP Posts: 7,815
    hughp said:

    Avery LP - List of State Funerals etc. What an interesting list ! The decision to have a state funeral for Lord Carson seems really strange, and the decision to have one for Lord Napier of Magdala (whose only claim to fame was a very easy military victory over the Emperor of Ethiopia) must have been questionable even at the time, but otherwise the choice of who to have state funerals for seems to have been remarkably sound, and reflects unexpected credit on those who took the necessary decisions.

    The State funeral of Lord Carson was held in Belfast which did somewhat narrow or focus the field of mourning.

    He was however a Kent boy.

  • hughphughp Posts: 11
    As regards Disraeli v Gladstone, the relevant factor is probably that Disraeli's ministerial career was substantially briefer - a few months in 1852, a year and a bit in 1858-9, two years in 1866-8 (latterly as PM), and the one long period as PM in 1874-80. Whereas Gladstone's ministerial career began in 1834 and ended in 1894 !
  • PlatoPlato Posts: 15,724
    edited April 2013
    I must say that the headline I never expected was possible would contain the words

    - Hitler
    - Thatcher
    - Boob Job
    - NHS
    - Teacher
    - Romany

    And yet, its happened. Monkeys writing Hamlet seemed more likely...
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 31,724
    AveryLP said:

    hughp said:

    Avery LP - List of State Funerals etc. What an interesting list ! The decision to have a state funeral for Lord Carson seems really strange, and the decision to have one for Lord Napier of Magdala (whose only claim to fame was a very easy military victory over the Emperor of Ethiopia) must have been questionable even at the time, but otherwise the choice of who to have state funerals for seems to have been remarkably sound, and reflects unexpected credit on those who took the necessary decisions.

    The State funeral of Lord Carson was held in Belfast which did somewhat narrow or focus the field of mourning.

    He was however a Kent boy.

    A Man of Kent or a Kentish Man?

  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 38,546
    I know there are fans on here, so I just thought I'd mention that tickets for Depeche Mode's new tour go on sale tomorrow.
  • AveryLPAveryLP Posts: 7,815
    I believe Clement Attlee was offered an NHS funeral.

    Catch him before his last breath, bung him on a hospital trolley, leave him in place for three days in front of assorted onlookers, then get a bunch of porters to drag him to St Paul's Cathedral in the hope that he dies before the service.

    Wisely, I understand Lord Attlee declined the offer.
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 20,901
    tim said:

    @MickPork

    Tory percentages in the last poll from each organisation

    Welfare,Europe immigration, all on a Lynton Crosby tape loop and fronted by a pair of incompetent fops.

    Hows that plan going?


    Been thinking about this. I have a theory about why the Tories are not polling so well despite polling support for the dog-whistle issues.

    Cameron spent most of his time in opposition tacking to the left. He presented and established himself as a centrist.

    Moving to the right now looks fake.

    Personally I think they're better off in the centre. But if the Tories are serious about moving to the right and think the election can be won there, they'll need a new leader to do it.
  • PlatoPlato Posts: 15,724
    LOL

    RT @eldahshan: Loving this. "#Qatar wins rights to host Margaret Thatcher funeral" http://www.panarabiaenquirer.com/wordpress/qatar-wins-rights-to-host-margaret-thatcher-funeral/ via @KarlreMarks
  • Mick_PorkMick_Pork Posts: 6,530
    edited April 2013
    @tim

    You might have expected it to sink in by now for Cammie and Osbrowne that all they and Crosby are doing is retoxifying while helping UKIP. But no, incompetence is still what they are all about.

    Just when all those tory councillors are at stake they double down on the stupidity instead of finally letting Crosby off the leash to go after Farage and UKIP. It'll dawn on them eventually. Most likely after the May local elections.
  • PlatoPlato Posts: 15,724
    Makes a change from 'I'm on the train'

    Cheeky cable thief sent text to his mum saying 'WTF I'll see yous in a few days - in a police chase in a van', courtnewsuk.co.uk
  • AndreaParma_82AndreaParma_82 Posts: 4,714
    Has Bercow been invited to the funeral? Will he take Sally with him? Can she tweet from St Paul?

  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 23,559
    Jonathan said:

    tim said:

    @MickPork

    Tory percentages in the last poll from each organisation

    Welfare,Europe immigration, all on a Lynton Crosby tape loop and fronted by a pair of incompetent fops.

    Hows that plan going?


    Been thinking about this. I have a theory about why the Tories are not polling so well despite polling support for the dog-whistle issues.

    Cameron spent most of his time in opposition tacking to the left. He presented and established himself as a centrist.

    Moving to the right now looks fake.

    Personally I think they're better off in the centre. But if the Tories are serious about moving to the right and think the election can be won there, they'll need a new leader to do it.
    That's a fair comment, Cameron's problem unlike Blairs is that the wing of his party that he's pissing off has found somewhere else to go.
  • taffystaffys Posts: 9,753
    HL

    One of the best books I've ever read on WW1 is Gordon Corrgan's 'mud, blood and poppycock'. It explodes all sorts of blackaddering myths about the British army in WW1 and Haig in particular.

    One of the cleverest point Corrigan makes is that Haig had no precedent whatsoever. He commanded an army many times bigger than anything any Briton had ever commanded before.

    Another brilliant point is executions of British servicemen. There were 300 or so, even though there were 3,000 sentences of death by court martial in the field that came across Hague's desk (he had the final say).

    He commuted 9 in 10.
  • AveryLPAveryLP Posts: 7,815

    AveryLP said:

    hughp said:

    Avery LP - List of State Funerals etc. What an interesting list ! The decision to have a state funeral for Lord Carson seems really strange, and the decision to have one for Lord Napier of Magdala (whose only claim to fame was a very easy military victory over the Emperor of Ethiopia) must have been questionable even at the time, but otherwise the choice of who to have state funerals for seems to have been remarkably sound, and reflects unexpected credit on those who took the necessary decisions.

    The State funeral of Lord Carson was held in Belfast which did somewhat narrow or focus the field of mourning.

    He was however a Kent boy.

    A Man of Kent or a Kentish Man?

    Born Dublin, died Minster.

    So an adopted son of Kent.
This discussion has been closed.