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politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » The great polling divide: CON wins on big broad themes but

SystemSystem Posts: 11,002
edited September 2013 in General

politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » The great polling divide: CON wins on big broad themes but when it gets personal LAB ahead

Ipsos-MORI find the Tories a best party on economy, crime and immigration. See chart pic.twitter.com/5fdpKbm6xr

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Comments

  • First!
  • welshowlwelshowl Posts: 4,460
    edited September 2013
    How does crime ( for instance ) not affect people directly?
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 59,540
    edited September 2013
    I'm impressed with the public's faith in Labour's housing policy!

    Perhaps they could tell us (and Labour) what it is?
  • richardDoddrichardDodd Posts: 5,472
    edited September 2013
    CV..Perhaps Labour could tell us what it is, and what it was for 13 years..
    Apparently they were all fighting like cats in a sack when they shoud have been running the country, and building houses for all those immigrants they welcomed with open arms.
  • NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 21,262
    welshowl said:

    How does crime ( for instance ) not affect people directly?

    Some people worry about being victims of crime a great deal, but most don't - like falling down the stairs, it's something to watch out against but not an everyday preoccupation like the cost of living. You could say the same about health but I think more people fret about health care, and taking everything into account trust the Conservatives less on the issue, since they believe the Tories would really like to change the system but don't quite dare to say so.

    The abstract vs personal divide is important. Imagine going on a doorstep and saying "Our party has made bold steps in quantitative easing which are resulting in improved M3 money supply, despite a risk to inflation which we discount." Perfectly true, possibly a jolly good thing, but...

  • NPXMP Maybe people fret about their healthcare a little more when they read about hospitals such as the one in Staffs...
  • EasterrossEasterross Posts: 1,915
    Strange that in England people trust the Tories less on healthcare when Labour squandered £billions driving down the standards in the NHS as can be seen from Stafford, Cumbria and all the other pre 2010 scandals which are coming out like puss from a festering wound.

    Was there no YouGov last night?
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758

    welshowl said:

    Imagine going on a doorstep and saying "Our party has made bold steps in quantitative easing which are resulting in improved M3 money supply, despite a risk to inflation which we discount." Perfectly true, possibly a jolly good thing, but...

    Which is why the message is Jeez, Labour screwed things up. It's been a hard slog getting back to where we are today. There's still a lot more to do - are you really going to let them take the helm again?
  • Labour's certainly the best party for unemployment . Each and every Labour administration has left office with unemployment higher than it was when they came in.
  • RogerRoger Posts: 18,891
    @Carlotta

    "I'm impressed with the public's faith in Labour's housing policy!

    Perhaps they could tell us (and Labour) what it is?"

    For someone whose career is/was in marketing I'm surprised you asked that question.

    Guinness would regularly research peoples impressions of Guinness. Everyone had one though invariably less than half had ever tried it. Image always trumps reality
  • Strange that in England people trust the Tories less on healthcare when Labour squandered £billions driving down the standards in the NHS as can be seen from Stafford, Cumbria and all the other pre 2010 scandals which are coming out like puss from a festering wound.

    And who do you blame for this? Lansley? Hunt? Cameron himself?
  • NPXMP Maybe people fret about their healthcare a little more when they read about hospitals such as the one in Staffs...

    Probably most people have recent experience of NHS care, either directly or indirectly via someone they know. One corollary of this is that it is pointless gaming the system or fiddling the figures. The chap next door knows exactly how long his dear old mum had to wait to have her hip done, and it makes precisely no difference to him, her, or any of their acquaintances, that she was only actually on the official, government-approved waiting list for half of that time.

    Or how long is the wait in A&E or outpatients, even if "officially" it was only 30 seconds because the receptionist is actually a nurse.

    A&E waiting times are rising, are they not?
  • RogerRoger Posts: 18,891
    The NHS will always be in Labour's column because everyone knows they saved it from the disintegration it suffered during 18 years of Tory governments.

    Though Labour might have mortgaged the family silver to put it back on track at least everyone knows and can see where the money went. The odd aberration like Stafford is neither here nor there because people know that Labour's rescue mission was genuine and necessary. If anything it just reminds people of the massive task they faced.
  • TGOHFTGOHF Posts: 21,633
    edited September 2013
    Unite backing the motion for the renationalisation of RM.

    Puff motion to puff up Eds non poodle status ?
  • MrJonesMrJones Posts: 3,523
    Combined scores out of seven categories
    - Con 181
    - Lab 187
    or c. 27%

    dunno how that compares historically or if the combined share correlates with turn-out.
  • TGOHFTGOHF Posts: 21,633
    Does the Con £27Bn Labour black hole figure include RM buyback ??
  • MrJonesMrJones Posts: 3,523

    Strange that in England people trust the Tories less on healthcare when Labour squandered £billions driving down the standards in the NHS as can be seen from Stafford, Cumbria and all the other pre 2010 scandals which are coming out like puss from a festering wound.

    Was there no YouGov last night?

    They were ahead briefly before Lansley blew it.
  • NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 21,262
    Easterross, RichardDodd - Stafford has had lots of coverage, and I think most people see it as horrible but unusual and not in keeping with their personal experience. But don't let me second-guess you - to what do YOU attribute Labour's persistent large lead on health?
  • richardDoddrichardDodd Posts: 5,472
    edited September 2013
    So Stafford was just an aberration and a direct result of Labours rescue plan.. absolute nonsense..Tell that to the relatives.. It was the result of an inept organisation, and useless Ministers.. please woger, dont treat PB ers as idiots.
  • Tim quoting Frazer Nelson from the speccie..desperate times in Cheshire
  • Labour is doing a good job of maintaining an 'emotive' or 'impression' driven view on many issues. Issues where they seem actually not to have any policies. This is a marketing or brand management skil lwhich they are undoubtedly more skillful lat than the Tories.

    However, as the GE approaches policy and leader ratings will become more relevant than they are now.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 76,274
    edited September 2013
    "A person close to Brown described McBride to me as ‘a wholly owned subsidiary of Ed Balls’. He may not have known all that McBride did, and he has plausibly denied some of the worst offences.

    But in McBride’s intent and manner, he was acting out the wishes of his master, Balls.

    Why are so many intelligent people in the media still taken in by Balls? I’m not sure. But it is clear that Miliband is afraid to get rid of him because of what he knows about the past, and fears the damage he would cause him in the future."

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2428513/The-unstable-ill-suited-PM-Robert-Walpole-1735-says-Anthony-Seldon.html
  • foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548
    I think Stafford particularly flagrant but am aware of similar issues at a number of hospitals not too far from Broxtowe. Labours record on health policy is nothing to boast of. The only reason that Labour lead is that people are sceptical of the Conservatives policy of privatisation. Roger believes that image trumps reality. The privatisation of the NHS under Brown and Blair was more dramatic than under the Conservative govt before or the coalition afterwards, so I think he is probably right on this.

    Easterross, RichardDodd - Stafford has had lots of coverage, and I think most people see it as horrible but unusual and not in keeping with their personal experience. But don't let me second-guess you - to what do YOU attribute Labour's persistent large lead on health?

  • EasterrossEasterross Posts: 1,915

    Easterross, RichardDodd - Stafford has had lots of coverage, and I think most people see it as horrible but unusual and not in keeping with their personal experience. But don't let me second-guess you - to what do YOU attribute Labour's persistent large lead on health?

    Labour always leads on departments which only spend money. Easy to be popular when you are promising to spend. Tories lead on the difficult areas like economy and law and order.

    Just like toffs and millionaires only occupy the Tory front bench. Never mind the 20 on the Labour front bench. The niece of an earl and the son of a baronet attended the same school and had largely similar upbringings but one is seen as ultra posh and the other claims to be "ordinary". Public perception and reality are often miles apart.
  • The only reason that Labour lead is that people are sceptical of the Conservatives policy of privatisation. Roger believes that image trumps reality. The privatisation of the NHS under Brown and Blair was more dramatic than under the Conservative govt before or the coalition afterwards, so I think he is probably right on this.

    The Cameroons are Blairites and the Blairites are Cameroons.
  • Easterross, RichardDodd - Stafford has had lots of coverage, and I think most people see it as horrible but unusual and not in keeping with their personal experience. But don't let me second-guess you - to what do YOU attribute Labour's persistent large lead on health?

    Nick: what's your opinion on the use of gagging clauses in the NHS under Labour, and what effect do you think they had on the media narrative about the NHS at the time?
  • MonikerDiCanioMonikerDiCanio Posts: 5,792
    edited September 2013

    "A person close to Brown described McBride to me as ‘a wholly owned subsidiary of Ed Balls’. He may not have known all that McBride did, and he has plausibly denied some of the worst offences.

    But in McBride’s intent and manner, he was acting out the wishes of his master, Balls.

    Why are so many intelligent people in the media still taken in by Balls? I’m not sure. But it is clear that Miliband is afraid to get rid of him because of what he knows about the past, and fears the damage he would cause him in the future."

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2428513/The-unstable-ill-suited-PM-Robert-Walpole-1735-says-Anthony-Seldon.html

    The EdM/Balls relationship repeats the Blair/Brown relationship , except the sequel is farcical rather than tragic.

  • SchardsSchards Posts: 210
    Miliband refusing to answer the first question on unions "the question people should be asking is,,,,,,," yeah, whatever
  • @Easterross

    How do you define a toff?

    Member of Bullingdon club like Boris, Dave, George and David Dimbleby?

    Elite public school like Eton/Harrow/Westminster?

    Oxbridge?

  • MikeKMikeK Posts: 9,053

    @TimMontgomerie
    Will Alternative for Deutschland get 5%? Forget what's happening in Brighton. That's the political question of the day.

    That'a exactly what i wrote last night, only to be ignored by all.

    My forcast for AfD: 5.6% - 6.1%
  • Roger said:

    The NHS will always be in Labour's column because everyone knows they saved it from the disintegration it suffered during 18 years of Tory governments.

    Not everyone. Some people think they made things worse.

    http://youtu.be/5m1jJ6gmo2Y
  • SchardsSchards Posts: 210
    People are strange, how on earth would anyone put Labour ahead on unemployment? Labour have a 100% record of raising unemployment whilst in office and added 800,000 to the figures in the last 3 years of their last period in office.
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758
    Roger said:

    Though Labour might have mortgaged the family silver to put it back on track at least everyone knows and can see where the money went. The odd aberration like Stafford is neither here nor there because people know that Labour's rescue mission was genuine and necessary. If anything it just reminds people of the massive task they faced.

    Really, Roger? Really?

    Stafford provided clear evidence of the consequences of a cultural shift in the NHS away from the basic care for patients. You can argue about the causes of this shift (in my view it partly mirrors an atomisation of society as a whole; partly the increased reliance on contract nurses; partly the academisation of nursing; and partly the trend towards management by target rather than delegating authority to autonomous professionals), but it happened on Labour;s watch.

    I'm not one of those people who claims X people died at Stafford (because it is an abuse of statistics to come up with those numbers). However, it clearly indicates that something is very wrong in the NHS and shouldn't be blithely dismissed like you have.
  • MikeK said:


    @TimMontgomerie
    Will Alternative for Deutschland get 5%? Forget what's happening in Brighton. That's the political question of the day.

    That'a exactly what i wrote last night, only to be ignored by all.

    My forcast for AfD: 5.6% - 6.1%

    When do the results come out?

  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758
    edited September 2013

    @Easterross

    How do you define a toff?

    Member of Bullingdon club like Boris, Dave, George and David Dimbleby?

    Elite public school like Eton/Harrow/Westminster?

    Oxbridge?

    There's no definition - it's a meaningless term of abuse. It's a bit like calling someone a "peasant" or a "wanker". The former is anachronistic, the latter most likely true.
  • CarolaCarola Posts: 1,805
    Politicians are fond of saying they want to do this or that in the 'right way'. I reckon that's in my 'annoying political-speak' top ten of meaning feck all. That and 'What I believe is', which means one of; 'I don't think I can achieve this but it sounds good', 'I don't believe it at all but it's what the stupid voters want to hear', 'I've no idea if I believe it but I think it makes me sound sincere', 'I haven't a clue so I'm playing for time'.
  • Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    @jameskirkup: Labour colleagues who worry that Ed M is more of a commentator than a PM-in-waiting will not have minds changed by #marr interview.
  • Good morning, everyone.

    Trying to find a bet I like. Not easy. I think Vettel's likely to scamper off, but Singapore is easy to make a mistake on and end the race *and* it frequently causes many reliability failures. Everything I like the look of has very short odds.

    Perversely, I might back Grosjean at 3 for a podium. Mr. Putney very cleverly backed him at 11/1 or suchlike pre-qualifying.

    Of course, the safety could be backed, but it's for a short return and whilst one is very likely it's not a certainty.
  • Mr. P, to be fair Labour MPs didn't back him in the first place. Not their fault he ended up leader.
  • Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    Ed Miliband says he told Gordon Brown to get rid of Damian McBride.

    Really?
  • " Today, the Marriage Foundation reports 240,000 couples claiming to be apart to get lone parent tax credits worth £7,100.00 (rising to £9,985. 00 where there are two children).

    No wonder working class people have concluded marriage is not a realistic option for them, with no tax or ‘welfare’ advantages to a marriage certificate."

    http://conservativehome.blogs.com/platform/2013/09/kathy-gyngell.html
  • Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    @benedictbrogan: Again, @Ed_Miliband stoking this curious disconnect that the problem was @DPMcBride not Gordon Brown #Marr
  • Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    @catherine_mayer: Can't help but feel this interview answers Marr's question on Ed's failure to connect more eloquently than Ed will. #ditchthesoundbites
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758
    tim said:

    Charles said:

    @Easterross

    How do you define a toff?

    Member of Bullingdon club like Boris, Dave, George and David Dimbleby?

    Elite public school like Eton/Harrow/Westminster?

    Oxbridge?

    There's no definition - it's a meaningless term of abuse. It's a bit like calling someone a "peasant" or a "wanker". The former is anachronistic, the latter most likely true.


    "How do you define a toff?"

    The public and the Tory backbenches see it as

    Someone David Cameron is comfortable with and promotes beyond their ability due to a shared backgroud.,
    Eg.
    George Osborne
    Jeremy Hunt.
    Francis Maude
    Ollie Letwin


    That may be an overlapping group but it isn't a definition.
  • MikeKMikeK Posts: 9,053

    MikeK said:


    @TimMontgomerie
    Will Alternative for Deutschland get 5%? Forget what's happening in Brighton. That's the political question of the day.

    That'a exactly what i wrote last night, only to be ignored by all.

    My forcast for AfD: 5.6% - 6.1%

    When do the results come out?

    Elections today. Results? Who knows :)
  • MikeKMikeK Posts: 9,053
    Weird, Weird, Weird, thats how Ed Millipede comes across on Marr this morning. That rictus smile: Weird, Weird, Weird!
  • Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    @PCollinsTimes: By not acting to recover economic credibility Labour is not yet ready to talk about living standards even though it desperately wants to
  • Sounds like Ed's playing another blinder on Marr and McBride has just torn a new one for Ali.
  • Should we start the Rabbit count now or wait until after lunch when the briefing notes have gone out .
  • Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    @nicholaswatt: . @Ed_Miliband: I was 'never engaged in factionalism'...apart from time when he told @tonyblairoffice to his face to resign #marr
  • Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    @GuidoFawkes: So we heard it clearly, in Ed Miliband's Labour Party there will be NO anonymous briefing from Baldwin, Wood, Dugher, Roberts or Hennessy.
  • MikeKMikeK Posts: 9,053
    BBC 1 Now promoting the Niqab. Can this organization go any lower?
  • Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    Don't you just hate it when Eton toffs try and pretend to be men of the people...

    @jameschappers: @adamboultonSKY accuses new Lab spinner @PatJHennessy of compensating for 'poshness with gratingly blokeish fanaticism for "footie"'. Blimey
  • MK..The BBC is on a suicide mission.. and not before time
  • MikeKMikeK Posts: 9,053
    Niarobi dead count now up to 59.
  • What the coalition should have done immediately was to cap public sector, including the BBC, earnings at ten times minimum wage.

    The resulting howling from various council executives, hospital bosses, BBC managers and quangocrats would have highlighted how much the public sector had fallen victim to 'producer capture' under the Labour government.

    It would also have put Labour in a difficult spot politically - either having to explain why these public sector fat cats deserved such earnings or explain why they had allowed their earnings to reach such excessive levels while they were in government.

    The problem is though that the Cameroons see nothing wrong with said groups being paid six figures sums as to them a six figure sum is merely average earnings.

  • richardDoddrichardDodd Posts: 5,472
    edited September 2013
    AR A ten x times cap.. good idea .. Perhaps Labour should adopt it..it would last ten minutes and then the phones would melt.
  • Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    Is it any wonder that mainstream politics is now so discredited and hated when this is how some people carried on in the Treasury and in 10 Downing Street? It is impossible to avoid concluding that if the main protagonists had invested half as much energy in running the country as they did in trying to do each other in, then Britain might not be in quite as much of a mess as it is now.
    http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/iainmartin1/100237207/labour-cant-shake-the-toxic-legacy-of-gordon-browns-poisonous-campaign-to-usurp-tony-blair/
  • Charles said:

    Roger said:

    Though Labour might have mortgaged the family silver to put it back on track at least everyone knows and can see where the money went. The odd aberration like Stafford is neither here nor there because people know that Labour's rescue mission was genuine and necessary. If anything it just reminds people of the massive task they faced.

    Really, Roger? Really?

    Stafford provided clear evidence of the consequences of a cultural shift in the NHS away from the basic care for patients. You can argue about the causes of this shift (in my view it partly mirrors an atomisation of society as a whole; partly the increased reliance on contract nurses; partly the academisation of nursing; and partly the trend towards management by target rather than delegating authority to autonomous professionals), but it happened on Labour;s watch.

    I'm not one of those people who claims X people died at Stafford (because it is an abuse of statistics to come up with those numbers). However, it clearly indicates that something is very wrong in the NHS and shouldn't be blithely dismissed like you have.
    Surely your causes began under the previous Conservative government? And at risk of relying too much on anecdote, I recall a couple of nurse acquaintances predicting in the 1980s that loss of a shared "nursing culture" would result from selling off the nurses' homes (where student and recently qualified nurses would live together on hospital premises).
  • surbitonsurbiton Posts: 13,549
    Mike says:

    "The great polling divide: CON wins on big broad themes but when it gets personal LAB ahead"

    Translation: Tories are radioactive !
  • F1: pre-race piece now up, with just the single tip:
    http://enormo-haddock.blogspot.co.uk/2013/09/singapore-pre-race.html
  • TGOHFTGOHF Posts: 21,633
    Labour definition of toff is a white successful person.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 53,766
    By the way, it is worth remembering that if AfD makes 5% and the FDP does not, that will result in a significantly more pro-European set of policies out of Berlin, almost certainly including A German backed debt reduction fund for the periphery.

    Personally, I suspect we will see AfD just below 4% today, as the FDP has been very effective at saying to potential AfD voters "Psst, we are eurosceptic too... Don't risk wasting your vote and leaving us both below 5%."
  • surbitonsurbiton Posts: 13,549
    MikeK said:

    Niarobi dead count now up to 59.

    As Dr. Prasannan wrote yesterday: Killed by friends of our friends in Syria.
  • TGOHF.. Do you mean like SO and woger?
  • Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    @PickardJE: An unnamed Labour source says there will be no more shadowy briefings in future.

    @tnewtondunn: @PickardJE apart from the one to the MoS for their splash this morning?
  • Mr. Flashman (deceased), not so. Harman doesn't count as a toff, after all.
  • surbitonsurbiton Posts: 13,549
    Scott_P said:

    @nicholaswatt: . @Ed_Miliband: I was 'never engaged in factionalism'...apart from time when he told @tonyblairoffice to his face to resign #marr

    Was Ken Clarke doing the same when he told Thatcher straight at her face, "Resign" ?

  • OllyTOllyT Posts: 4,911
    Interesting that given all the reasons the PB Tories have trotted out in the thread for why Labour ought to be behind on the NHS, Unemployment and Housing that voters in general seem to completely disagree. Damn those pesky voters.
  • Surbiton.. No one has claimed to have friends in Syria.
  • surbitonsurbiton Posts: 13,549
    MikeK said:

    MikeK said:


    @TimMontgomerie
    Will Alternative for Deutschland get 5%? Forget what's happening in Brighton. That's the political question of the day.

    That'a exactly what i wrote last night, only to be ignored by all.

    My forcast for AfD: 5.6% - 6.1%

    When do the results come out?



    Elections today. Results? Who knows :)

    5pm our time.


  • Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    surbiton said:


    Was Ken Clarke doing the same when he told Thatcher straight at her face, "Resign" ?

    Did Ken Clarke then go on national TV and claim he never engaged in factionalism?
  • RodCrosbyRodCrosby Posts: 7,737
    Alan Sked monstering Farage on Sky, trying to link him to Nazis...
  • SimonStClareSimonStClare Posts: 7,976
    edited September 2013
    “Alastair Campbell has described the actions of Damian McBride in allowing his book to damage Labour on the eve of conference as "sickening".”

    An odd choice of word – best suited to describe McBride’s behaviour one would have thought. However, when it comes to smears against enemies and colleagues alike, Mr Campbell, appears somewhat reluctant to comment. - I wonder why.

    http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2013/sep/21/damian-mcbride-labour-alastair-campbell-miliband
  • TGOHF said:

    Labour definition of toff is a white successful person.

    If the shadowy briefings are to be believed, those complaining most about toffs in government are Conservative backbenchers.
  • tim said:

    2010 Lib Dems

    Best on issues


    Education Lab +21

    (all voters Lab +6)


    Took ages on here for the penny to drop among the PB Tories regarding Goves toxicity among 2010 Lib Dems.
    That centralising religious fervour is a great recruiter for Labour in the marginal seats.

    Why would Labour be criticising centralisation? That's their main policy.
  • FinancierFinancier Posts: 3,916
    The Marr - Miliband interview showed the paucity of Labour's thought process as it was all about rearranging tax and benefits and nothing about cost reduction and increasing the wealth-creation ability of the UK.

    He did not wish to comment on tax reduction but wanted to raise the minimum wage but did not say how that would increase the competitiveness of the UK. He prevaricated on the EU.

    Nothing was said on reducing the cost of Council Tax and Business Rates, nothing on controlling energy costs and eliminating the Green Energy Tax (now ~10% of energy bills but rising to >20%), nothing on reducing food costs, nothing on controlling housing costs.

    His acknowledgement of lack of skills in the UK by allowing the immigration of skilled workers was marred by the obligation to create one UK based apprentice. He is so far removed from reality that he does not realise that many UK children are so ill-educated compared to those who might immigrate that they are not suitable for apprenticeships. Of course he does not want the control of education to be taken away from failing Labour councils.

    There was nothing on increasing the competitiveness of the UK and raising exports - so where will the jobs come from?
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 50,753

    What the coalition should have done immediately was to cap public sector, including the BBC, earnings at ten times minimum wage.

    The resulting howling from various council executives, hospital bosses, BBC managers and quangocrats would have highlighted how much the public sector had fallen victim to 'producer capture' under the Labour government.

    It would also have put Labour in a difficult spot politically - either having to explain why these public sector fat cats deserved such earnings or explain why they had allowed their earnings to reach such excessive levels while they were in government.

    The problem is though that the Cameroons see nothing wrong with said groups being paid six figures sums as to them a six figure sum is merely average earnings.

    Maybe the Cameroons have a better grasp of the law of contract. Did you not think Labour had got the deficit big enough?
  • DavidL said:

    What the coalition should have done immediately was to cap public sector, including the BBC, earnings at ten times minimum wage.

    The resulting howling from various council executives, hospital bosses, BBC managers and quangocrats would have highlighted how much the public sector had fallen victim to 'producer capture' under the Labour government.

    It would also have put Labour in a difficult spot politically - either having to explain why these public sector fat cats deserved such earnings or explain why they had allowed their earnings to reach such excessive levels while they were in government.

    The problem is though that the Cameroons see nothing wrong with said groups being paid six figures sums as to them a six figure sum is merely average earnings.

    Maybe the Cameroons have a better grasp of the law of contract. Did you not think Labour had got the deficit big enough?
    The government creates the laws. If the public sector has given itself more money than the country can afford then salaries need to be cut..
  • GrandioseGrandiose Posts: 2,323
    "LAB wins on areas that directly affect people"

    They all affect people.

    Perhaps we could call the economy question indirect, but not crime and not immigration. Certainly when you consider unemployment and housing directly affect onyl a certain percentage of people.
  • YorkcityYorkcity Posts: 4,382



    By Matthew d’Ancona" I congratulate my colleague Patrick Hennessy, Political Editor of this newspaper for nine years, on his appointment as Miliband’s deputy director of communications. If actions speak louder than words, the Labour leader has indicated that he values integrity and intellect above plots and arm-twisting by recruiting this brilliant journalist.) "

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/ed-miliband/10324721/Its-Ed-Ryanair-Miliband-v-David-Business-Class-Cameron.html.

    I would imagine Michael O`leary does not see it this way.
  • How can Labour be ahead on housing? Their housing bubble priced a whole generation out of ever owning.
  • TGOHFTGOHF Posts: 21,633
    Sorry I shall improve - Labour definition of toff is a successful white person that doesn't vote Labour.

    Hence why rich luvvies are ok.
  • What the coalition should have done immediately was to cap public sector, including the BBC, earnings at ten times minimum wage.

    If you believe in a market economy for talent, then such a cap would mean public sector organisations would be unable to compete. If the BBC wants to hire Wayne Rooney to present weather forecasts, it must pay more than Manchester United pays him to play football. If you do not favour such a market, then why not apply the limit to the private sector as well? Surely the real scandal is the gulf between top floor and shop floor.
  • PlatoPlato Posts: 15,724
    edited September 2013
    TV 30 Years Ago @tv30yearsago
    ITV 6.35 Crossroads 7.00 Emmerdale Farm 7.30 Film: The Pink Panther Strikes Again 9.30 TV Eye 10.00 News At Ten 10.30 The Sweeney

    Reminiscent of Labour right now
  • YorkcityYorkcity Posts: 4,382
    Scott_P said:

    surbiton said:


    Was Ken Clarke doing the same when he told Thatcher straight at her face, "Resign" ?

    Did Ken Clarke then go on national TV and claim he never engaged in factionalism?
    You will be telling us next Bernard Ingham never briefed against his own cabinet ministers.
  • PlatoPlato Posts: 15,724
    TGOHF said:

    Labour definition of toff is a white successful person.

    Quite.
  • PlatoPlato Posts: 15,724
    Scott_P said:

    @PickardJE: An unnamed Labour source says there will be no more shadowy briefings in future.

    @tnewtondunn: @PickardJE apart from the one to the MoS for their splash this morning?

    LOL LOL LOL
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 50,753
    Labour are undoubtedly thought by the majority of the public to have their hearts in the right place on the NHS. These perceptions are very deep rooted and countless examples of Blair inspired privatisation (on a scale the tories would not have dared), managerial incompetence and wasted money on IT systems is just not going to shift it.

    Cameron tried really hard to say "me too". I think quite a lot of people believe him but they are a lot less sure about his party. The tory outriders and columnists make it clear they have reservations about "socialised medicine" and the viability of the funding given to the NHS, especially after Brown's largesse. This creates a mood music which makes people wonder if the NHS is safe in tory hands, whatever Cameron says or his government actually does.

    The current debates with new stories almost every day about the incompetence and sometimes callous disregard for patient care in the NHS should make people think more carefully about this but the polling is clear. They are not going to. The tories really need to talk about something else.

    The obvious line to me is that the NHS can only be funded by a successful economy. If you want a strong NHS you need a strong economy. And we all know Labour can't provide that. Focus on the strength and explain why it allows them to protect the NHS in a way that Labour ultimately would not be able to.
  • PlatoPlato Posts: 15,724
    Guido Fawkes @GuidoFawkes
    Morning @labourpress, remember, no more unattributable briefings or Ed says he is going to fire you.
  • DavidL said:

    What the coalition should have done immediately was to cap public sector, including the BBC, earnings at ten times minimum wage.

    The resulting howling from various council executives, hospital bosses, BBC managers and quangocrats would have highlighted how much the public sector had fallen victim to 'producer capture' under the Labour government.

    It would also have put Labour in a difficult spot politically - either having to explain why these public sector fat cats deserved such earnings or explain why they had allowed their earnings to reach such excessive levels while they were in government.

    The problem is though that the Cameroons see nothing wrong with said groups being paid six figures sums as to them a six figure sum is merely average earnings.

    Maybe the Cameroons have a better grasp of the law of contract. Did you not think Labour had got the deficit big enough?
    This is exactly what I mean by 'producer capture' or more specifically executive capture.

    The fatcats control the organisation and ensure that they are the ones to gain from it.

    Clearly neither the Cameroons or you think there's anything wrong with tha but I'm sure action could be taken if you wanted to - 100% income tax rates above a certain level of earnings for example.
  • Plato.. does that apply to paid trolls on blogsites too
  • SimonStClareSimonStClare Posts: 7,976
    edited September 2013

    How can Labour be ahead on housing? Their housing bubble priced a whole generation out of ever owning.

    Yes, it does appear a little counter intuitive – especially when considering their record on house building when in power which never quite matched the rhetoric to say the least.

    Their repeated promise of 3 million new homes before each election failed by a factor of 10. if memory recalls.
  • JonnyJimmyJonnyJimmy Posts: 2,548
    Yorkcity said:

    Scott_P said:

    surbiton said:


    Was Ken Clarke doing the same when he told Thatcher straight at her face, "Resign" ?

    Did Ken Clarke then go on national TV and claim he never engaged in factionalism?
    You will be telling us next Bernard Ingham never briefed against his own cabinet ministers.
    An excellent example of a non sequitur, though I can't imagine that's what you intended.
  • DavidL said:

    Labour are undoubtedly thought by the majority of the public to have their hearts in the right place on the NHS. These perceptions are very deep rooted and countless examples of Blair inspired privatisation (on a scale the tories would not have dared), managerial incompetence and wasted money on IT systems is just not going to shift it.

    Cameron tried really hard to say "me too". I think quite a lot of people believe him but they are a lot less sure about his party. The tory outriders and columnists make it clear they have reservations about "socialised medicine" and the viability of the funding given to the NHS, especially after Brown's largesse. This creates a mood music which makes people wonder if the NHS is safe in tory hands, whatever Cameron says or his government actually does.

    The current debates with new stories almost every day about the incompetence and sometimes callous disregard for patient care in the NHS should make people think more carefully about this but the polling is clear. They are not going to. The tories really need to talk about something else.

    The obvious line to me is that the NHS can only be funded by a successful economy. If you want a strong NHS you need a strong economy. And we all know Labour can't provide that. Focus on the strength and explain why it allows them to protect the NHS in a way that Labour ultimately would not be able to.

    Yep. You can only lose votes over the NHS and no matter what the Tories do they are going to lose them. They should just remove the running of the NHS out of central government and have separate mayor type elections for people to run it. Cut out one of Labours main appeals to voters (which I could never understand anyway as they have proven themselves terrible at it time and again).
  • NormNorm Posts: 1,251
    MikeK said:

    Weird, Weird, Weird, thats how Ed Millipede comes across on Marr this morning. That rictus smile: Weird, Weird, Weird!

    In fact I thought he wasn't so much weird (in some respects he's a perfectly amiable bloke) as rather weak and unfocused. Unfortunately I looked at him and thought this is not a man who'd I want to be Prime Minister. That is not to say he won't make it by default and the vagaries of the current electoral system.

  • How can Labour be ahead on housing? Their housing bubble priced a whole generation out of ever owning.

    Yes, it does appear a little counter intuitive – especially when considering their record on house building when in power which never quite matched the rhetoric to say the least.

    Their repeated promise of 3 million new homes before each election failed by a factor of 10. if memory recalls.
    I think Labour have just managed to retain that nice image that they're on your side and will help you and your family out. I've no idea how, since it is obvious that it isn't the case but there we go.

    It is slowly eroding away though every time they get into government and they make a complete pigs ear of it. Best thing for the Tories long term would be for Labour to get in again next time when there really isn't any money left.
  • Labour Uncut Yougov poll: Over 1 in 4 2010 Lab voters have been lost.
    http://labour-uncut.co.uk/2013/09/21/exclusive-uncut-poll-over-1-in-4-2010-lab-voters-have-been-lost-here’s-what-can-be-done-to-win-them-back/

    Does this mean Labour's current polling is built on more fickle voters or has more potential upside?
  • What the coalition should have done immediately was to cap public sector, including the BBC, earnings at ten times minimum wage.

    If you believe in a market economy for talent, then such a cap would mean public sector organisations would be unable to compete. If the BBC wants to hire Wayne Rooney to present weather forecasts, it must pay more than Manchester United pays him to play football. If you do not favour such a market, then why not apply the limit to the private sector as well? Surely the real scandal is the gulf between top floor and shop floor.
    Because the public sector aren't in a market economy they receive their income from the taxpayers.

    And who makes the decisions at the BBC ? The ordinary employees ? The licensepayers ? No, a self perpetuating and self rewarding oligarchy of executives and middle managers. Fatcats whose principle concern is the wellbeing of fatcats.

    So looking at it as 'how much would the BBC have to pay to get Wayne Rooney' is the wrong way round. The correct question is 'how much would the BBC executives and middle managers get paid in the private sector'.

    What the private sector does with its money is its business, if organisations within it are mismanaged then they go out of business.

    Though to be fair much of the private sector has also fallen victim to 'producer capture'. A comparison between changes in share prices, executive earnings and employee earnings since 2000 shows that the executive class has effectively stolen both the fruits of the shareholders investment and the fruits of the employees labour.
This discussion has been closed.