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politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » Some will they stay or will they go in 2018 markets

SystemSystem Posts: 11,007
edited May 2018 in General

imagepoliticalbetting.com » Blog Archive » Some will they stay or will they go in 2018 markets

I like these type of markets where you can bet on whether or not X will be in their current job on a certain date.

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    RobDRobD Posts: 58,961
    First!
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    CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 59,576
    Second! Like Remain, Yes & Corbyn...
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    JackWJackW Posts: 14,787
    A Bercow-Bait thread ....

    Titter ....
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    DecrepitJohnLDecrepitJohnL Posts: 13,300
    Not Jeremy Hunt's fault but it can't be good for his supporters' blood pressure when 1,500 junior doctors have had their job offers withdrawn after a computer error was found.
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-44020235
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    DecrepitJohnLDecrepitJohnL Posts: 13,300
    JackW said:

    A Bercow-Bait thread ....

    Titter ....

    After two days' discussion of whether the more-or-less stalemate local elections are marginally better for the blue or red team, it will be a relief. At least we can bet on it.
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    SquareRootSquareRoot Posts: 7,095
    edited May 2018
    JackW said:

    A Bercow-Bait thread ....

    Titter ....

    The question is the manner of his departure ..will he go or be forced.out as a result of certain complaints against him.. I think he will go..
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    CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 59,576
    And underpinning all of this action is my absolute determination to make a success of Brexit, by leaving the single market and customs union and building a new relationship with the EU partners that takes back control of our borders, our laws and our money.

    https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/6220654/theresa-may-labour-election-failures/
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    NigelbNigelb Posts: 62,378
    You have had some success in calling demises recently; Bercow’s days are numbered.

    Incidentally, it’s loath, not loathe, which is a different word entirely.
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    DecrepitJohnLDecrepitJohnL Posts: 13,300

    And underpinning all of this action is my absolute determination to make a success of Brexit, by leaving the single market and customs union and building a new relationship with the EU partners that takes back control of our borders, our laws and our money.

    https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/6220654/theresa-may-labour-election-failures/

    Mrs May has drawn up a list of four demands that have to be met for a new customs arrangement to work.

    (1) It must give Britain freedom to strike trade deals with non-EU countries, (2) maintain a frictionless Irish border and (3) kick in by the end of 2020.

    (4) Most importantly, she believes it has to be accepted by Parliament and the EU.


    It is that fourth demand that makes us grateful for the incisive thinking of our Oxford-educated Prime Minister.

    https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/politics/6220497/theresa-may-britain-out-eu-customs-union/
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    CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 59,576

    And underpinning all of this action is my absolute determination to make a success of Brexit, by leaving the single market and customs union and building a new relationship with the EU partners that takes back control of our borders, our laws and our money.

    https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/6220654/theresa-may-labour-election-failures/

    Mrs May has drawn up a list of four demands that have to be met for a new customs arrangement to work.

    (1) It must give Britain freedom to strike trade deals with non-EU countries, (2) maintain a frictionless Irish border and (3) kick in by the end of 2020.

    (4) Most importantly, she believes it has to be accepted by Parliament and the EU.


    It is that fourth demand that makes us grateful for the incisive thinking of our Oxford-educated Prime Minister.

    https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/politics/6220497/theresa-may-britain-out-eu-customs-union/
    I’m sure there’s a Venn diagram out there somewhere....
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    ThomasNasheThomasNashe Posts: 4,968

    And underpinning all of this action is my absolute determination to make a success of Brexit, by leaving the single market and customs union and building a new relationship with the EU partners that takes back control of our borders, our laws and our money.

    https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/6220654/theresa-may-labour-election-failures/

    Mrs May has drawn up a list of four demands that have to be met for a new customs arrangement to work.

    (1) It must give Britain freedom to strike trade deals with non-EU countries, (2) maintain a frictionless Irish border and (3) kick in by the end of 2020.

    (4) Most importantly, she believes it has to be accepted by Parliament and the EU.


    It is that fourth demand that makes us grateful for the incisive thinking of our Oxford-educated Prime Minister.

    https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/politics/6220497/theresa-may-britain-out-eu-customs-union/
    Incisive thinking, or wishful thinking?
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    Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 60,969
    Good morning, everyone.

    If the poison dwarf does bugger off, I hope Hoyle gets the gig.
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    DecrepitJohnLDecrepitJohnL Posts: 13,300
    Tin-foil hat wearers want to know if the renewed pressure for Bercow to go is due to old rumours that chief Brexit pita Jacob Rees-Mogg wanted to get his bottom on the Speaker's chair.
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    malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 41,811

    And underpinning all of this action is my absolute determination to make a success of Brexit, by leaving the single market and customs union and building a new relationship with the EU partners that takes back control of our borders, our laws and our money.

    https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/6220654/theresa-may-labour-election-failures/

    Mrs May has drawn up a list of four demands that have to be met for a new customs arrangement to work.

    (1) It must give Britain freedom to strike trade deals with non-EU countries, (2) maintain a frictionless Irish border and (3) kick in by the end of 2020.

    (4) Most importantly, she believes it has to be accepted by Parliament and the EU.


    It is that fourth demand that makes us grateful for the incisive thinking of our Oxford-educated Prime Minister.

    https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/politics/6220497/theresa-may-britain-out-eu-customs-union/
    A Hard Brexit's gonna fall
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    FoxyFoxy Posts: 44,531

    Not Jeremy Hunt's fault but it can't be good for his supporters' blood pressure when 1,500 junior doctors have had their job offers withdrawn after a computer error was found.
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-44020235

    Now that is quite a cock up. It sounded on the radio that the the allocation round will be re-run. These are the ST3 jobs for Specialist Training in various disciplines, the last step before a Consultant job. The jobs start in August, so not a lot of time to get it sorted, the RCP reckons redone by June.

    Not sure if it was the College or the Deanery (an arm of the DoH) that is at fault, but human error apparently, glad I wasn't involved this year!

    http://www.st3recruitment.org.uk/news/major-issue-with-st3-2018-r1-process-offers-to-be-re-run

    At the recruitment assessment centre candidates are scored acros a number of domains, and put in rank order. The higher the rank candidates then get first pick of speciality training both in terms of speciality, but also region. these places then become more sparse until the lower ranked candidates pick over the leftovers.




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    CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 59,576
    malcolmg said:

    And underpinning all of this action is my absolute determination to make a success of Brexit, by leaving the single market and customs union and building a new relationship with the EU partners that takes back control of our borders, our laws and our money.

    https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/6220654/theresa-may-labour-election-failures/

    Mrs May has drawn up a list of four demands that have to be met for a new customs arrangement to work.

    (1) It must give Britain freedom to strike trade deals with non-EU countries, (2) maintain a frictionless Irish border and (3) kick in by the end of 2020.

    (4) Most importantly, she believes it has to be accepted by Parliament and the EU.


    It is that fourth demand that makes us grateful for the incisive thinking of our Oxford-educated Prime Minister.

    https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/politics/6220497/theresa-may-britain-out-eu-customs-union/
    A Hard Brexit's gonna fall
    https://twitter.com/hendopolis/status/993002979350450176?s=20
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    RogerRoger Posts: 18,891
    edited May 2018

    Good morning, everyone.

    If the poison dwarf does bugger off, I hope Hoyle gets the gig.

    Following your uncharacteristically politically incorrect not to say unpleasant comment it's reasonable to ask if you hold some personal animosity towards him unknown to the rest of us?
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    FoxyFoxy Posts: 44,531

    And underpinning all of this action is my absolute determination to make a success of Brexit, by leaving the single market and customs union and building a new relationship with the EU partners that takes back control of our borders, our laws and our money.

    https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/6220654/theresa-may-labour-election-failures/

    Mrs May has drawn up a list of four demands that have to be met for a new customs arrangement to work.

    (1) It must give Britain freedom to strike trade deals with non-EU countries, (2) maintain a frictionless Irish border and (3) kick in by the end of 2020.

    (4) Most importantly, she believes it has to be accepted by Parliament and the EU.


    It is that fourth demand that makes us grateful for the incisive thinking of our Oxford-educated Prime Minister.

    https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/politics/6220497/theresa-may-britain-out-eu-customs-union/
    I’m sure there’s a Venn diagram out there somewhere....
    There is this...

    https://twitter.com/SanremoAncheNoi/status/987678267179192321?s=19
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    AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 30,340
    John Bercow originally promised to serve for no more than nine years when he took office in 2009. It would be distinctly dangerous to bet on him staying in office to the end of the year, regardless of what you think of his current troubles. He might simply keep his promise.
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    malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 41,811

    malcolmg said:

    And underpinning all of this action is my absolute determination to make a success of Brexit, by leaving the single market and customs union and building a new relationship with the EU partners that takes back control of our borders, our laws and our money.

    https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/6220654/theresa-may-labour-election-failures/

    Mrs May has drawn up a list of four demands that have to be met for a new customs arrangement to work.

    (1) It must give Britain freedom to strike trade deals with non-EU countries, (2) maintain a frictionless Irish border and (3) kick in by the end of 2020.

    (4) Most importantly, she believes it has to be accepted by Parliament and the EU.


    It is that fourth demand that makes us grateful for the incisive thinking of our Oxford-educated Prime Minister.

    https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/politics/6220497/theresa-may-britain-out-eu-customs-union/
    A Hard Brexit's gonna fall
    https://twitter.com/hendopolis/status/993002979350450176?s=20
    Is it any wonder the Herald is almost bankrupt. 40K people peacefully marching whilst about 15 unionist goons giving Nazi salutes protest and they come up with that crap. We even had Buffalo Ruth complaining she was held up for 5 minutes.
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    JackWJackW Posts: 14,787
    Bercow to many is the Marmite Speaker but he is far from toast. We've been here before with some malcontent Conservative MP's using any opportunity to undermine him aided by some in the Tory press. The latest attempt in the Daily Mail yesterday was an expenses hatchet job of such ineptitude that one was tempted to think they'd run out of barrels to scrape.

    The government should also be wary of applying its dabs to any Bercow exit process as its' last attempt fronted by Hague was spectacularly ill-judged and rightly failed miserably. That said Bercow's own sunset clause may be his biggest weakness but only if a viable candidate is at hand and his support drifts away. Presently the Speaker remains popular in the Commons and his opponents will have a hard job in prizing him away from the Chair.
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    FF43FF43 Posts: 15,692

    And underpinning all of this action is my absolute determination to make a success of Brexit, by leaving the single market and customs union and building a new relationship with the EU partners that takes back control of our borders, our laws and our money.

    https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/6220654/theresa-may-labour-election-failures/

    Mrs May has drawn up a list of four demands that have to be met for a new customs arrangement to work.

    (1) It must give Britain freedom to strike trade deals with non-EU countries, (2) maintain a frictionless Irish border and (3) kick in by the end of 2020.

    (4) Most importantly, she believes it has to be accepted by Parliament and the EU.


    It is that fourth demand that makes us grateful for the incisive thinking of our Oxford-educated Prime Minister.

    https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/politics/6220497/theresa-may-britain-out-eu-customs-union/
    Customs Union + single market is the only option that fulfills those four demands. The UK can, and indeed, has to strike its own third country deals under CU+SM, just as under any scenario. The deals are likely to be more favourable to us than under any other scenario, except membership of the EU.
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    Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 60,969
    Mr. Roger, his character rubs me up the wrong way. He thinks he is the show rather than the umpire. A bit like Boris in that regard.
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    CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 59,576
    An Irish take on Brexit customs:

    https://www.rte.ie/amp/960472/
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    Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453

    John Bercow originally promised to serve for no more than nine years when he took office in 2009. It would be distinctly dangerous to bet on him staying in office to the end of the year, regardless of what you think of his current troubles. He might simply keep his promise.

    According to The Sun, the Speaker has told friends that he wants to do 10 years in the job before stepping down.

    Mr Bercow became Speaker in 2009, and at the time said he would remain in post for nine years.

    But in a move which is likely to infuriate his critics on the Tory benches, it is claimed he will stay in the role until mid-2019.


    https://www.politicshome.com/news/uk/politics/news/94930/john-bercow-planning-10-years-speaker-despite-bullying-allegations
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    malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 41,811

    An Irish take on Brexit customs:

    https://www.rte.ie/amp/960472/

    My expectation is that the Tories will try to do a dodgy deal behind closed doors and hope they get away with it till after the next election. The public will pay big time for their mendacity.
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    JackWJackW Posts: 14,787

    Mr. Roger, his character rubs me up the wrong way. He thinks he is the show rather than the umpire. A bit like Boris in that regard.

    The Speaker is part of the show and first among equals as an MP in the Commons, let alone his constitutional position in precedence, where he ranks above all members of the Cabinet except the Lord High Chancellor, the Prime Minister and Lord President of the Council.
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    edmundintokyoedmundintokyo Posts: 17,141
    I haven't crunched the numbers with the other related odds but the female president looks interesting. Dems have to be favourites running against either Trump or a Republican Party that either ditched Trump or had their POTUS pushed out under a cloud. Among the Dems, there are women with a good claim to basically all the different slots:

    * Plodding careerist who ticks the right boxes: Kamala Harris
    * Feisty base-pleaser: Elizabeth Warren
    * Audacious opportunist: Kirsten Gillibrand
    * Old-generation establishment politician with a grip on the machine that the hapless party can't seem to shake off: Hillary Clinton
    * Fuck everything, they beat us with a TV star, let's give that a try: Oprah Winfrey
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    JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 38,916

    Mr. Roger, his character rubs me up the wrong way. He thinks he is the show rather than the umpire. A bit like Boris in that regard.

    I'm not a fan of Bercow, but I think it's more nuanced than that. There certainly seem to have been two different Bercows as speaker: his first few years were more than a little troubled, and his (ex?) wife gratuitous publicity-seeking did not do him or his image much good. But over the last few years he seems to have settled into the job - or I'm more used to his little idiosyncrasies.

    I certainly have little trouble with him allowing the opposition to hold the government to account more frequently.

    IMO he will not be seen as a 'good' speaker, but not as a bad one either. Hoyle, on the other hand, has been outstanding as a deputy.
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    Dura_AceDura_Ace Posts: 12,982


    * Old-generation establishment politician with a grip on the machine that the hapless party can't seem to shake off: Hillary Clinton

    Having just finished her book (What Happened) I think she will run again in 2022. She will be comparatively old but her unbounded bitterness about the 2016 campaign will cause her to spontaneously rejuvenate. Clinton - Warren would be an interesting ticket.
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    RoyalBlueRoyalBlue Posts: 3,223
    edited May 2018

    And underpinning all of this action is my absolute determination to make a success of Brexit, by leaving the single market and customs union and building a new relationship with the EU partners that takes back control of our borders, our laws and our money.

    https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/6220654/theresa-may-labour-election-failures/

    Mrs May has drawn up a list of four demands that have to be met for a new customs arrangement to work.

    (1) It must give Britain freedom to strike trade deals with non-EU countries, (2) maintain a frictionless Irish border and (3) kick in by the end of 2020.

    (4) Most importantly, she believes it has to be accepted by Parliament and the EU.


    It is that fourth demand that makes us grateful for the incisive thinking of our Oxford-educated Prime Minister.

    https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/politics/6220497/theresa-may-britain-out-eu-customs-union/
    The Prime Minister is demanding the impossible. Her civil servants should have made this clear to her.

    The only way to a diamond-hard Brexit is for the negotiations to collapse. Is that what she really wants? We would face weeks if not months of massive disruption.
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    Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 55,267

    I haven't crunched the numbers with the other related odds but the female president looks interesting. Dems have to be favourites running against either Trump or a Republican Party that either ditched Trump or had their POTUS pushed out under a cloud. Among the Dems, there are women with a good claim to basically all the different slots:

    * Plodding careerist who ticks the right boxes: Kamala Harris
    * Feisty base-pleaser: Elizabeth Warren
    * Audacious opportunist: Kirsten Gillibrand
    * Old-generation establishment politician with a grip on the machine that the hapless party can't seem to shake off: Hillary Clinton
    * Fuck everything, they beat us with a TV star, let's give that a try: Oprah Winfrey

    Good point.
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    NigelbNigelb Posts: 62,378
    Dura_Ace said:


    * Old-generation establishment politician with a grip on the machine that the hapless party can't seem to shake off: Hillary Clinton

    Having just finished her book (What Happened) I think she will run again in 2022. She will be comparatively old but her unbounded bitterness about the 2016 campaign will cause her to spontaneously rejuvenate. Clinton - Warren would be an interesting ticket.
    It possible, I guess. But she has no chance of the nomination.
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    Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 55,267
    Bit worrying that William Hill thinks Teresa May will be PM at some point.
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    RogerRoger Posts: 18,891

    Mr. Roger, his character rubs me up the wrong way. He thinks he is the show rather than the umpire. A bit like Boris in that regard.

    I'm not a fan of Bercow, but I think it's more nuanced than that. There certainly seem to have been two different Bercows as speaker: his first few years were more than a little troubled, and his (ex?) wife gratuitous publicity-seeking did not do him or his image much good. But over the last few years he seems to have settled into the job - or I'm more used to his little idiosyncrasies.

    I certainly have little trouble with him allowing the opposition to hold the government to account more frequently.

    IMO he will not be seen as a 'good' speaker, but not as a bad one either. Hoyle, on the other hand, has been outstanding as a deputy.
    But what his wife (or ex-wife) showed was that he's a thoroughly modern man who accepts that his wife is a separate entity and not just an appendage. While the trashy newspapers and the tutting Tories who read them tried to dump their ordure on him through his wife he was content for her to speak for herself.

    Particularly praiseworthy in the stuffy position of Speaker and it doesn't even take an imagination to picture the whisperings and name calling (Poison Dwarf?) that was was going on behind him.
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    TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 114,294

    Bit worrying that William Hill thinks Teresa May will be PM at some point.

    Well Hard/WTO Brexit will fuck this country senseless.

    Who better to deal with that than a porn star.
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    Dura_AceDura_Ace Posts: 12,982
    Scott_P said:
    I felt like I was having a massive stroke reading that. May's preferred solution, which incidentally she can't overtly advocate, has already been rejected by the EU and the ERG but she's persisting with it anyway? I'm sure that's all going to end wonderfully.
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    DavidLDavidL Posts: 51,131

    I haven't crunched the numbers with the other related odds but the female president looks interesting. Dems have to be favourites running against either Trump or a Republican Party that either ditched Trump or had their POTUS pushed out under a cloud. Among the Dems, there are women with a good claim to basically all the different slots:

    * Plodding careerist who ticks the right boxes: Kamala Harris
    * Feisty base-pleaser: Elizabeth Warren
    * Audacious opportunist: Kirsten Gillibrand
    * Old-generation establishment politician with a grip on the machine that the hapless party can't seem to shake off: Hillary Clinton
    * Fuck everything, they beat us with a TV star, let's give that a try: Oprah Winfrey

    And does any of them even get Trump out of second gear in his re-election campaign? For me the only person who can beat Trump is Trump. And so far he has tested the parameters of the possible and the acceptable without breaking sweat.
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    felixfelix Posts: 15,124
    JackW said:

    Mr. Roger, his character rubs me up the wrong way. He thinks he is the show rather than the umpire. A bit like Boris in that regard.

    The Speaker is part of the show and first among equals as an MP in the Commons, let alone his constitutional position in precedence, where he ranks above all members of the Cabinet except the Lord High Chancellor, the Prime Minister and Lord President of the Council.
    Uncharacteristically wrong. His status depends on a need for scrupulous impartiality a rule he frequently departs from bringing the office into disrepute. His treatment of Trump was appalling. I am not a Trump fan.
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    SandpitSandpit Posts: 49,847
    I would bet on Bercow going this year, but he seems a little short.
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    Ishmael_ZIshmael_Z Posts: 8,981
    felix said:

    JackW said:

    Mr. Roger, his character rubs me up the wrong way. He thinks he is the show rather than the umpire. A bit like Boris in that regard.

    The Speaker is part of the show and first among equals as an MP in the Commons, let alone his constitutional position in precedence, where he ranks above all members of the Cabinet except the Lord High Chancellor, the Prime Minister and Lord President of the Council.
    Uncharacteristically wrong. His status depends on a need for scrupulous impartiality a rule he frequently departs from bringing the office into disrepute. His treatment of Trump was appalling. I am not a Trump fan.
    Disagree. He is an arse, but not enough of an arse to justify spending time on what will look to the general public like an exercise in shooting the referee and distracting attention from the ever so slightly more important issue of brexit. And while I am sure his accusers have had a bad time they do look a tiny bit as though they might have stood up for themselves a bit more. You really need someone young, female and bame.
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    MortimerMortimer Posts: 13,936
    Sandpit said:

    I would bet on Bercow going this year, but he seems a little short.

    Chapeau!
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    RoyalBlueRoyalBlue Posts: 3,223
    Does anyone have a link to the ERG 30-page document about customs and trade policy? A quick Google only brought up a Telegraph link that is subscriber-only.
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    TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 114,294
    Crikey.

    Bob Seely’s gone there.

    Writing in The Sunday Times, the Tory MP Bob Seely today questions whether Seumas Milne, Corbyn’s communications director, knowingly peddled the Kremlin’s views on the conflict in Ukraine in 2014 and 2015 when he was a columnist for The Guardian newspaper.

    Seely has studied leaked emails from aides to Vladimir Putin which show that Russia devised a plan to break up Ukraine by promoting federalism there. He found four instances of Milne repeating the same argument by calling for “regional autonomy”.

    Seely also identifies four other messages favoured by the Kremlin in Milne’s writings, including claims that Ukraine was governed by fascists and that Putin’s war was “defensive”.

    “I believe the question is not whether Milne was sympathetic to the Kremlin’s agenda, but whether he was — wittingly or not — a fellow traveller or an active agent of influence for the Kremlin. I look forward to challenging Jeremy Corbyn in parliament,” he writes.


    http://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/02465610-5076-11e8-84b1-71d01ab2ff8f
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    MortimerMortimer Posts: 13,936
    Dura_Ace said:

    Scott_P said:
    I felt like I was having a massive stroke reading that. May's preferred solution, which incidentally she can't overtly advocate, has already been rejected by the EU and the ERG but she's persisting with it anyway? I'm sure that's all going to end wonderfully.
    I'm trying to work out how, given the cabinet have indicated a desire for managed divergence and max-fac, this plan for alignment and tying us to a virtual customs union will fly. At first I was assuming that we were all missing something known only to the whips/negotiators. Now, I haven't a clue....
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    Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 55,267
    Dura_Ace said:

    Scott_P said:
    I felt like I was having a massive stroke reading that. May's preferred solution, which incidentally she can't overtly advocate, has already been rejected by the EU and the ERG but she's persisting with it anyway? I'm sure that's all going to end wonderfully.
    Chill. Almost everything you read in the press on the negotiations has been selectively leaked for public consumption, and written up to generate an emotional reaction in you. That’s how news is sold. And it’s also how the politics of negotiation is done.

    Negotiations behind the scenes will be far more well advanced than is generally known. But, because we’re now at the business sharp end, where all the trade-offs are now being weighed up, all sides are flexing a bit of muscle as they jockey for position in the final agreement.
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    RecidivistRecidivist Posts: 4,679
    Dura_Ace said:

    Scott_P said:
    I felt like I was having a massive stroke reading that. May's preferred solution, which incidentally she can't overtly advocate, has already been rejected by the EU and the ERG but she's persisting with it anyway? I'm sure that's all going to end wonderfully.
    Nobody on this forum discusses the practicalities of Brexit anymore.
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    ydoethurydoethur Posts: 67,109
    Dura_Ace said:


    * Old-generation establishment politician with a grip on the machine that the hapless party can't seem to shake off: Hillary Clinton

    Having just finished her book (What Happened) I think she will run again in 2022.
    It would be very typical of her long-standing and total incompetence for her to run in 2022. On the other hand, since she would be the only candidate running she might actually win...

    (Yeah, I know, but somebody did this to me the other day!)
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    ydoethurydoethur Posts: 67,109
    Sandpit said:

    I would bet on Bercow going this year, but he seems a little short.

    Baboom-tish!
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    Dura_AceDura_Ace Posts: 12,982

    Dura_Ace said:

    Scott_P said:
    I felt like I was having a massive stroke reading that. May's preferred solution, which incidentally she can't overtly advocate, has already been rejected by the EU and the ERG but she's persisting with it anyway? I'm sure that's all going to end wonderfully.
    Nobody on this forum discusses the practicalities of Brexit anymore.
    We just need somebody to "nothing's agreed until everything is agreed" as if that were some piercing insight and we'll all be mollified.
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    RogerRoger Posts: 18,891
    Foxy said:

    And underpinning all of this action is my absolute determination to make a success of Brexit, by leaving the single market and customs union and building a new relationship with the EU partners that takes back control of our borders, our laws and our money.

    https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/6220654/theresa-may-labour-election-failures/

    Mrs May has drawn up a list of four demands that have to be met for a new customs arrangement to work.

    (1) It must give Britain freedom to strike trade deals with non-EU countries, (2) maintain a frictionless Irish border and (3) kick in by the end of 2020.

    (4) Most importantly, she believes it has to be accepted by Parliament and the EU.


    It is that fourth demand that makes us grateful for the incisive thinking of our Oxford-educated Prime Minister.

    https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/politics/6220497/theresa-may-britain-out-eu-customs-union/
    I’m sure there’s a Venn diagram out there somewhere....
    There is this...

    https://twitter.com/SanremoAncheNoi/status/987678267179192321?s=19
    As appropriate a use of an Escher as I've seen. So perfect it's possible to imagine his spirit sitting at the cabinet table doing sketches
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    malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 41,811

    Dura_Ace said:

    Scott_P said:
    I felt like I was having a massive stroke reading that. May's preferred solution, which incidentally she can't overtly advocate, has already been rejected by the EU and the ERG but she's persisting with it anyway? I'm sure that's all going to end wonderfully.
    Chill. Almost everything you read in the press on the negotiations has been selectively leaked for public consumption, and written up to generate an emotional reaction in you. That’s how news is sold. And it’s also how the politics of negotiation is done.

    Negotiations behind the scenes will be far more well advanced than is generally known. But, because we’re now at the business sharp end, where all the trade-offs are now being weighed up, all sides are flexing a bit of muscle as they jockey for position in the final agreement.
    LOL, you give our bell ends far too much credence. The morons will be sitting sucking their thumbs wondering what they can do next.
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    Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 60,969
    Mr. Roger, Escher does some wonderful stuff. The labyrinth drawing in particular is great.
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    RoyalBlueRoyalBlue Posts: 3,223

    Dura_Ace said:

    Scott_P said:
    I felt like I was having a massive stroke reading that. May's preferred solution, which incidentally she can't overtly advocate, has already been rejected by the EU and the ERG but she's persisting with it anyway? I'm sure that's all going to end wonderfully.
    Chill. Almost everything you read in the press on the negotiations has been selectively leaked for public consumption, and written up to generate an emotional reaction in you. That’s how news is sold. And it’s also how the politics of negotiation is done.

    Negotiations behind the scenes will be far more well advanced than is generally known. But, because we’re now at the business sharp end, where all the trade-offs are now being weighed up, all sides are flexing a bit of muscle as they jockey for position in the final agreement.
    I wish I shared your confidence.
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    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,943
    edited May 2018
    The 25/1 Mogg PM and Gove Deputy bet is interesting as the new Conservative Home Tory members next Tory leader poll this weekend has Mogg and Gove tied for first on 20% each.

    Meanwhile Sajid Javid has moved up to third on 10% following his appointment as Home Secretary

    https://www.conservativehome.com/thetorydiary/2018/05/our-next-tory-leader-survey-rees-mogg-leads-gove-by-two-votes-in-over-a-thousand.html
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    JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 38,916
    Roger said:

    Mr. Roger, his character rubs me up the wrong way. He thinks he is the show rather than the umpire. A bit like Boris in that regard.

    I'm not a fan of Bercow, but I think it's more nuanced than that. There certainly seem to have been two different Bercows as speaker: his first few years were more than a little troubled, and his (ex?) wife gratuitous publicity-seeking did not do him or his image much good. But over the last few years he seems to have settled into the job - or I'm more used to his little idiosyncrasies.

    I certainly have little trouble with him allowing the opposition to hold the government to account more frequently.

    IMO he will not be seen as a 'good' speaker, but not as a bad one either. Hoyle, on the other hand, has been outstanding as a deputy.
    But what his wife (or ex-wife) showed was that he's a thoroughly modern man who accepts that his wife is a separate entity and not just an appendage. While the trashy newspapers and the tutting Tories who read them tried to dump their ordure on him through his wife he was content for her to speak for herself.

    Particularly praiseworthy in the stuffy position of Speaker and it doesn't even take an imagination to picture the whisperings and name calling (Poison Dwarf?) that was was going on behind him.
    I generally agree: his wife's actions had little directly to do with him. However, it did, as I said above: "do him or his image much good" for the reasons you give.

    However, if you say his wife's actions have no negative connotations on his role, then you cannot take it positively for his role, either.

    And yes, I'm a little fed up with the 'poison dwarf' and similar jibes. There is plenty of reason to criticise Bercow for the way he has performed his role rather than his genetics.
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    Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453

    And yes, I'm a little fed up with the 'poison dwarf' and similar jibes. There is plenty of reason to criticise Bercow for the way he has performed his role rather than his genetics.

    Unless his boorish behaviour is a direct consequence of trying to compensate for his lack of height
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    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,943

    I haven't crunched the numbers with the other related odds but the female president looks interesting. Dems have to be favourites running against either Trump or a Republican Party that either ditched Trump or had their POTUS pushed out under a cloud. Among the Dems, there are women with a good claim to basically all the different slots:

    * Plodding careerist who ticks the right boxes: Kamala Harris
    * Feisty base-pleaser: Elizabeth Warren
    * Audacious opportunist: Kirsten Gillibrand
    * Old-generation establishment politician with a grip on the machine that the hapless party can't seem to shake off: Hillary Clinton
    * Fuck everything, they beat us with a TV star, let's give that a try: Oprah Winfrey

    Joe Biden and Bernie Sanders are currently polling better than all those
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    RogerRoger Posts: 18,891

    Dura_Ace said:

    Scott_P said:
    I felt like I was having a massive stroke reading that. May's preferred solution, which incidentally she can't overtly advocate, has already been rejected by the EU and the ERG but she's persisting with it anyway? I'm sure that's all going to end wonderfully.
    Nobody on this forum discusses the practicalities of Brexit anymore.
    is 'practicalities of Brexit' an oxymoron?
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    edmundintokyoedmundintokyo Posts: 17,141
    DavidL said:

    I haven't crunched the numbers with the other related odds but the female president looks interesting. Dems have to be favourites running against either Trump or a Republican Party that either ditched Trump or had their POTUS pushed out under a cloud. Among the Dems, there are women with a good claim to basically all the different slots:

    * Plodding careerist who ticks the right boxes: Kamala Harris
    * Feisty base-pleaser: Elizabeth Warren
    * Audacious opportunist: Kirsten Gillibrand
    * Old-generation establishment politician with a grip on the machine that the hapless party can't seem to shake off: Hillary Clinton
    * Fuck everything, they beat us with a TV star, let's give that a try: Oprah Winfrey

    And does any of them even get Trump out of second gear in his re-election campaign? For me the only person who can beat Trump is Trump. And so far he has tested the parameters of the possible and the acceptable without breaking sweat.
    Clearly you shouldn't misunderestimate him and he holds a lot of cards but objectively, he has terrible favourables, and he won because he was up against an opponent who also had terrible favourables, not to mention crap strategy (didn't hunt for votes in the right places, as against Obama) and bad luck (Comey letter etc).

    If the Dems are foolish enough to pick Hillary again then it might be more like a toss-up, but I'd favour any of the others to beat him except possibly Harris, who is wooden and has a weak memetic warfare game.
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    JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 38,916
    Scott_P said:

    And yes, I'm a little fed up with the 'poison dwarf' and similar jibes. There is plenty of reason to criticise Bercow for the way he has performed his role rather than his genetics.

    Unless his boorish behaviour is a direct consequence of trying to compensate for his lack of height
    I'm unsure you are a qualified psychologist able to make such a diagnosis? Besides, I have known several tall people who are more than a little boorish ...
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    Sean_FSean_F Posts: 35,799
    edited May 2018
    Bercow is a dismally unpleasant man, but the Conservatives really don't need another opposition MP in the Commons right now, so let him remain Speaker.

    I see Rallings and Thrasher now calculate NEV at 37 Con, 36 Lab, 14 Lib Dem.
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    Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 60,969
    Mr. Jessop, fair enough. Perhaps it was unseemly.
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    Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453

    I'm unsure you are a qualified psychologist able to make such a diagnosis?

    You don't know how tall I am :smile:
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    edmundintokyoedmundintokyo Posts: 17,141
    HYUFD said:

    I haven't crunched the numbers with the other related odds but the female president looks interesting. Dems have to be favourites running against either Trump or a Republican Party that either ditched Trump or had their POTUS pushed out under a cloud. Among the Dems, there are women with a good claim to basically all the different slots:

    * Plodding careerist who ticks the right boxes: Kamala Harris
    * Feisty base-pleaser: Elizabeth Warren
    * Audacious opportunist: Kirsten Gillibrand
    * Old-generation establishment politician with a grip on the machine that the hapless party can't seem to shake off: Hillary Clinton
    * Fuck everything, they beat us with a TV star, let's give that a try: Oprah Winfrey

    Joe Biden and Bernie Sanders are currently polling better than all those
    This is true but they're both getting very old, Biden seems to lack the killer instinct and Sanders seems to have pissed off as much of the base as he's enthused, so they'll tend to unite behind one of the others barring strategic accidents like the field failing to winnow itself down in time.
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    SandpitSandpit Posts: 49,847
    The reason for not wanting the 1/3 is that he’s a stubborn little sod and, as we discovered last time, there’s no way of getting rid of a Speaker except by resignation or death - which is astonishing for someone with so much real power - unless the good people of Buckingham want to get rid of him at an election.

    It’s quite possible, nay probable, that if the noises about unseating him continue he’ll be more determined to stay in place for longer. I also imagine that he’s relishing causing chaos with regard to the Brexit legislation, and would be quite happy to use the Parliamentary process over which he has control to ensure maximum discomfort for the government.
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    Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 55,267

    Dura_Ace said:

    Scott_P said:
    I felt like I was having a massive stroke reading that. May's preferred solution, which incidentally she can't overtly advocate, has already been rejected by the EU and the ERG but she's persisting with it anyway? I'm sure that's all going to end wonderfully.
    Nobody on this forum discusses the practicalities of Brexit anymore.
    I think that’s because too many posters are interested in pushing their own lines on Brexit rather than objectively analysing what’s actually going on.

    For example, the NI border is a huge dead cat. It’s not about the NI border, which could easily be solveable if both sides wanted it to be. It’s about the fact Eire (which will stay in the EU) conducts over 80% of its trade with the rest of the EU through the UK’s ferries, ports, roads and tunnels. It therefore needs as simple and streamlined Customs and goods clearance as possible, so all their lorries can be waved through without any bureaucracy. Particularly at Dover and Holyhead.

    Intra-Ireland trade is a distraction to this, which is basically just there to put political and moral pressure on HMG to make broader U.K. wide concessions.
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    Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 55,267
    RoyalBlue said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    Scott_P said:
    I felt like I was having a massive stroke reading that. May's preferred solution, which incidentally she can't overtly advocate, has already been rejected by the EU and the ERG but she's persisting with it anyway? I'm sure that's all going to end wonderfully.
    Chill. Almost everything you read in the press on the negotiations has been selectively leaked for public consumption, and written up to generate an emotional reaction in you. That’s how news is sold. And it’s also how the politics of negotiation is done.

    Negotiations behind the scenes will be far more well advanced than is generally known. But, because we’re now at the business sharp end, where all the trade-offs are now being weighed up, all sides are flexing a bit of muscle as they jockey for position in the final agreement.
    I wish I shared your confidence.
    Both the divorce settlement and transition deal were done at the 11th hour. I suspect this will be as well.

    It’s not the UK-EU negotiations that particularly worry me. It’s the arithmetic in the Commons and Lords which could prevent the Government from getting crucial legislation in place, and - potentially - lead to its fall.
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    ydoethurydoethur Posts: 67,109
    edited May 2018
    felix said:

    JackW said:

    Mr. Roger, his character rubs me up the wrong way. He thinks he is the show rather than the umpire. A bit like Boris in that regard.

    The Speaker is part of the show and first among equals as an MP in the Commons, let alone his constitutional position in precedence, where he ranks above all members of the Cabinet except the Lord High Chancellor, the Prime Minister and Lord President of the Council.
    Uncharacteristically wrong. His status depends on a need for scrupulous impartiality a rule he frequently departs from bringing the office into disrepute. His treatment of Trump was appalling. I am not a Trump fan.
    Not correct. Until the late nineteenth century Speaker was a partisan post and the holder was seen as the recipient of government patronage. Henry Addington was promoted from the Speaker's chair to the premiership in 1801. Manners-Sutton was considered a plausible Leader of the Opposition in 1832 although in the end the party stuck with Peel. Richard III made his own lawyer William Catesby Speaker in 1484. That's way Congress (which is based on our system) has a partisan Speaker. The Lord Chancellor as Speaker of the Lords was overtly partisan - indeed, a Cabinet minister - and directly appointed by the PM to within very recent memory. Meanwhile the Order of Precedence dates to the Middle Ages. So the status doesn't depend on impartiality.

    Maybe he could be more even handed. That said, he is a massive improvement on the late Michael Martin. If the Speaker isn't neutral it's better they're not a further patsy for a government with a majority North of 160.
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    DavidLDavidL Posts: 51,131

    DavidL said:

    I haven't crunched the numbers with the other related odds but the female president looks interesting. Dems have to be favourites running against either Trump or a Republican Party that either ditched Trump or had their POTUS pushed out under a cloud. Among the Dems, there are women with a good claim to basically all the different slots:

    * Plodding careerist who ticks the right boxes: Kamala Harris
    * Feisty base-pleaser: Elizabeth Warren
    * Audacious opportunist: Kirsten Gillibrand
    * Old-generation establishment politician with a grip on the machine that the hapless party can't seem to shake off: Hillary Clinton
    * Fuck everything, they beat us with a TV star, let's give that a try: Oprah Winfrey

    And does any of them even get Trump out of second gear in his re-election campaign? For me the only person who can beat Trump is Trump. And so far he has tested the parameters of the possible and the acceptable without breaking sweat.
    Clearly you shouldn't misunderestimate him and he holds a lot of cards but objectively, he has terrible favourables, and he won because he was up against an opponent who also had terrible favourables, not to mention crap strategy (didn't hunt for votes in the right places, as against Obama) and bad luck (Comey letter etc).

    If the Dems are foolish enough to pick Hillary again then it might be more like a toss-up, but I'd favour any of the others to beat him except possibly Harris, who is wooden and has a weak memetic warfare game.
    I'm already on him for re-election. Its a bet I would be happy enough to lose but I don't expect to. He is running a grossly irresponsible deficit which will no doubt give a short term boost to an economy that is already doing well, his deal with the Tech giants allowing them to onshore hundreds of billions of lightly taxed profits will give a boost to investment, his trade policies are reckless but may well encourage some American companies to bring some key production back home; for those that voted for him he will be seen to have delivered bigly, even if has appalled coastal liberals who didn't.

    A Democrat with a genuine vision for America might beat him. Tired old retreads, has beens and never was'ers have no chance. If there is such a democrat he or she is keeping a low profile.
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    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,943

    DavidL said:

    I haven't crunched the numbers with the other related odds but the female president looks interesting. Dems have to be favourites running against either Trump or a Republican Party that either ditched Trump or had their POTUS pushed out under a cloud. Among the Dems, there are women with a good claim to basically all the different slots:

    * Plodding careerist who ticks the right boxes: Kamala Harris
    * Feisty base-pleaser: Elizabeth Warren
    * Audacious opportunist: Kirsten Gillibrand
    * Old-generation establishment politician with a grip on the machine that the hapless party can't seem to shake off: Hillary Clinton
    * Fuck everything, they beat us with a TV star, let's give that a try: Oprah Winfrey

    And does any of them even get Trump out of second gear in his re-election campaign? For me the only person who can beat Trump is Trump. And so far he has tested the parameters of the possible and the acceptable without breaking sweat.
    Clearly you shouldn't misunderestimate him and he holds a lot of cards but objectively, he has terrible favourables, and he won because he was up against an opponent who also had terrible favourables, not to mention crap strategy (didn't hunt for votes in the right places, as against Obama) and bad luck (Comey letter etc).

    If the Dems are foolish enough to pick Hillary again then it might be more like a toss-up, but I'd favour any of the others to beat him except possibly Harris, who is wooden and has a weak memetic warfare game.
    Do not be so sure, as a first term POTUS the odds favour Trump, only Jimmy Carter since WW2 of US Presidents has failed to win re-election after only one term of their party in the White House
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    NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 21,321
    It's usually best to bet against people leaving their roles - inertia is very powerful in politics. I'm not convinced by the unattributed reports that the Tory conspiracy is more than the usual handful who flopped when they last challenged Bercow, If I read him correctly, he'll go out of his way to annoy them.

    A couple of polls, one of them NOT Rasmussen, have shown Trump's ratings much improved lately:

    https://www.realclearpolitics.com/epolls/latest_polls/
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    SandpitSandpit Posts: 49,847
    edited May 2018
    HYUFD said:

    I haven't crunched the numbers with the other related odds but the female president looks interesting. Dems have to be favourites running against either Trump or a Republican Party that either ditched Trump or had their POTUS pushed out under a cloud. Among the Dems, there are women with a good claim to basically all the different slots:

    * Plodding careerist who ticks the right boxes: Kamala Harris
    * Feisty base-pleaser: Elizabeth Warren
    * Audacious opportunist: Kirsten Gillibrand
    * Old-generation establishment politician with a grip on the machine that the hapless party can't seem to shake off: Hillary Clinton
    * Fuck everything, they beat us with a TV star, let's give that a try: Oprah Winfrey

    Joe Biden and Bernie Sanders are currently polling better than all those
    Right now all the potential Democrat candidates are either septuagenarians or have no appeal outside California and New England.

    They desperately need to find someone in their 40s or 50s who’s going to talk to middle America in the swing states, could well end up going for a governor that no-one really knows yet.

    As @DavidL mentions above there’s a good chance of a booming US economy in 2020, for which Trump’s going to take every bit of the credit.
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    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,943

    HYUFD said:

    I haven't crunched the numbers with the other related odds but the female president looks interesting. Dems have to be favourites running against either Trump or a Republican Party that either ditched Trump or had their POTUS pushed out under a cloud. Among the Dems, there are women with a good claim to basically all the different slots:

    * Plodding careerist who ticks the right boxes: Kamala Harris
    * Feisty base-pleaser: Elizabeth Warren
    * Audacious opportunist: Kirsten Gillibrand
    * Old-generation establishment politician with a grip on the machine that the hapless party can't seem to shake off: Hillary Clinton
    * Fuck everything, they beat us with a TV star, let's give that a try: Oprah Winfrey

    Joe Biden and Bernie Sanders are currently polling better than all those
    This is true but they're both getting very old, Biden seems to lack the killer instinct and Sanders seems to have pissed off as much of the base as he's enthused, so they'll tend to unite behind one of the others barring strategic accidents like the field failing to winnow itself down in time.
    Will they? Sanders is already firing up his base again and it looks like Warren will stay in the Senate and possibly endorse him leaving only Biden with a realistic shot of stopping Sanders getting the Democratic nomination.

    Remember too Trump will be 75 in 2020 so is hardly youthful himself
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    Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 60,969
    I do wonder about Biden's age. But for that, he'd look very strong indeed as a candidate. Might still get it, of course. Enrico Dandolo was 90 odd (and blind) when he led the Venetians and Fourth Crusade to conquer Constantinople.
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    SquareRootSquareRoot Posts: 7,095
    Sean_F said:

    Bercow is a dismally unpleasant man, but the Conservatives really don't need another opposition MP in the Commons right now, so let him remain Speaker.

    I see Rallings and Thrasher now calculate NEV at 37 Con, 36 Lab, 14 Lib Dem.

    ..but that does not mean that people would vote like that at a GE
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    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,943
    Sandpit said:

    HYUFD said:

    I haven't crunched the numbers with the other related odds but the female president looks interesting. Dems have to be favourites running against either Trump or a Republican Party that either ditched Trump or had their POTUS pushed out under a cloud. Among the Dems, there are women with a good claim to basically all the different slots:

    * Plodding careerist who ticks the right boxes: Kamala Harris
    * Feisty base-pleaser: Elizabeth Warren
    * Audacious opportunist: Kirsten Gillibrand
    * Old-generation establishment politician with a grip on the machine that the hapless party can't seem to shake off: Hillary Clinton
    * Fuck everything, they beat us with a TV star, let's give that a try: Oprah Winfrey

    Joe Biden and Bernie Sanders are currently polling better than all those
    Right now all the potential Democrat candidates are either septuagenarians or have no appeal outside California and New England.

    They desperately need to find someone in their 40s or 50s who’s going to talk to middle America in the swing states, could well end up going for a governor that no-one really knows yet.
    Most candidates who get the nomination against incumbent presidents tend to be established figures in their 60s or 70s e.g. Romney, Kerry, Dole, Mondale, Reagan, McGovern etc.

    Younger Governors or Senators in their 40s or 50s tend to get the nomination after 8 or more years of one party in the White House or when the existing President can no longer run for re election e.g. Obama, George W Bush, Bill Clinton, Dukakis, Carter, JFK etc as the voters are more in the mood for change
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    DavidLDavidL Posts: 51,131
    Sean_F said:

    Bercow is a dismally unpleasant man, but the Conservatives really don't need another opposition MP in the Commons right now, so let him remain Speaker.

    I see Rallings and Thrasher now calculate NEV at 37 Con, 36 Lab, 14 Lib Dem.

    If he stood down as Speaker he would leave the Commons. The Tories would get another MP from Buckingham and the next Speaker is likely to be from the Opposition benches (or JRM which is much the same). There are much bigger and more important priorities but I struggle to see Bercow standing down adversely affecting Parliamentary arithmetic for the government.
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    felixfelix Posts: 15,124
    ydoethur said:

    felix said:

    JackW said:

    Mr. Roger, his character rubs me up the wrong way. He thinks he is the show rather than the umpire. A bit like Boris in that regard.

    The Speaker is part of the show and first among equals as an MP in the Commons, let alone his constitutional position in precedence, where he ranks above all members of the Cabinet except the Lord High Chancellor, the Prime Minister and Lord President of the Council.
    Uncharacteristically wrong. His status depends on a need for scrupulous impartiality a rule he frequently departs from bringing the office into disrepute. His treatment of Trump was appalling. I am not a Trump fan.
    Not correct. Until the late nineteenth century Speaker was a partisan post and the holder was seen as the recipient of government patronage. Henry Addington was promoted from the Speaker's chair to the premiership in 1801. Manners-Sutton was considered a plausible Leader of the Opposition in 1832 although in the end the party stuck with Peel. Richard III made his own lawyer William Catesby Speaker in 1484. That's way Congress (which is based on our system) has a partisan Speaker. The Lord Chancellor as Speaker of the Lords was overtly partisan - indeed, a Cabinet minister - and directly appointed by the PM to within very recent memory. Meanwhile the Order of Precedence dates to the Middle Ages. So the status doesn't depend on impartiality.

    Maybe he could be more even handed. That said, he is a massive improvement on the late Michael Martin. If the Speaker isn't neutral it's better they're not a further patsy for a government with a majority North of 160.
    I made no mention of the 19 th century. Surely you would agree the last 60 years or so is more relevant.
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    SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 38,914
    Dura_Ace said:

    Scott_P said:
    I felt like I was having a massive stroke reading that. May's preferred solution, which incidentally she can't overtly advocate, has already been rejected by the EU and the ERG but she's persisting with it anyway? I'm sure that's all going to end wonderfully.

    The ERG and the Corbynistas both want the hardest of hard Brexits because they believe that the immense economic pain this will cause will lead to changes that benefit them. It could just be that May is beginning to understand that the only way to avoid the calamity she created by triggering Article 50 without a plan or any cabinet consensus is to allow time for a Commons consensus that excludes the hard right and far left to build; while hoping that time also gives her the space to show the EU that, in practice, what she is advocating will be pretty much what we have now - both with regards to the CU and the Single Market. At some point, though, she will have a decision to make: what is best for the country or what is best for her. That can cannot be kicked down the path forever.

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    FoxyFoxy Posts: 44,531

    Dura_Ace said:

    Scott_P said:
    I felt like I was having a massive stroke reading that. May's preferred solution, which incidentally she can't overtly advocate, has already been rejected by the EU and the ERG but she's persisting with it anyway? I'm sure that's all going to end wonderfully.
    Nobody on this forum discusses the practicalities of Brexit anymore.
    I think that’s because too many posters are interested in pushing their own lines on Brexit rather than objectively analysing what’s actually going on.

    For example, the NI border is a huge dead cat. It’s not about the NI border, which could easily be solveable if both sides wanted it to be. It’s about the fact Eire (which will stay in the EU) conducts over 80% of its trade with the rest of the EU through the UK’s ferries, ports, roads and tunnels. It therefore needs as simple and streamlined Customs and goods clearance as possible, so all their lorries can be waved through without any bureaucracy. Particularly at Dover and Holyhead.

    Intra-Ireland trade is a distraction to this, which is basically just there to put political and moral pressure on HMG to make broader U.K. wide concessions.
    Though that may change with the new Dublin Zeebrugge aand Dublin Rotterdam RoRo ferries.

    https://afloat.ie/port-news/dublin-port/item/37536-world-s-largest-ro-ro-ferry-to-be-introduced-on-dublin-routes-linking-mainland-europe
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    JackWJackW Posts: 14,787
    DavidL said:

    Sean_F said:

    Bercow is a dismally unpleasant man, but the Conservatives really don't need another opposition MP in the Commons right now, so let him remain Speaker.

    I see Rallings and Thrasher now calculate NEV at 37 Con, 36 Lab, 14 Lib Dem.

    If he stood down as Speaker he would leave the Commons. The Tories would get another MP from Buckingham and the next Speaker is likely to be from the Opposition benches (or JRM which is much the same). There are much bigger and more important priorities but I struggle to see Bercow standing down adversely affecting Parliamentary arithmetic for the government.
    Frankly the government shouldn't touch the Bercow matter with the longest of long barge poles. They have enough problems without antagonizing a significant proportion of Conservative MP's as they did with the Hague putsch.
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    DavidLDavidL Posts: 51,131
    felix said:

    ydoethur said:

    felix said:

    JackW said:
    Uncharacteristically wrong. His status depends on a need for scrupulous impartiality a rule he frequently departs from bringing the office into disrepute. His treatment of Trump was appalling. I am not a Trump fan.
    Not correct. Until the late nineteenth century Speaker was a partisan post and the holder was seen as the recipient of government patronage. Henry Addington was promoted from the Speaker's chair to the premiership in 1801. Manners-Sutton was considered a plausible Leader of the Opposition in 1832 although in the end the party stuck with Peel. Richard III made his own lawyer William Catesby Speaker in 1484. That's way Congress (which is based on our system) has a partisan Speaker. The Lord Chancellor as Speaker of the Lords was overtly partisan - indeed, a Cabinet minister - and directly appointed by the PM to within very recent memory. Meanwhile the Order of Precedence dates to the Middle Ages. So the status doesn't depend on impartiality.

    Maybe he could be more even handed. That said, he is a massive improvement on the late Michael Martin. If the Speaker isn't neutral it's better they're not a further patsy for a government with a majority North of 160.
    I made no mention of the 19 th century. Surely you would agree the last 60 years or so is more relevant.
    I do enjoy @ydoethur's historical contributions to the site, it gives a different perspective.

    My own perspective is more modest. When I was in Primary School, about the time of the 1970 election, our teacher decided to have mock elections to elect our own HoC. As the only one interested in politics, I had been leafleting for Heath believe it or not, I got elected Speaker. What an incredibly frustrating role it was. I have never forgotten how powerless I felt as the debates went careering off into nonsense. I have had a little empathy with Speakers ever since, even Martin.
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    Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 55,267
    Foxy said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    Scott_P said:
    I felt like I was having a massive stroke reading that. May's preferred solution, which incidentally she can't overtly advocate, has already been rejected by the EU and the ERG but she's persisting with it anyway? I'm sure that's all going to end wonderfully.
    Nobody on this forum discusses the practicalities of Brexit anymore.
    I think that’s because too many posters are interested in pushing their own lines on Brexit rather than objectively analysing what’s actually going on.

    For example, the NI border is a huge dead cat. It’s not about the NI border, which could easily be solveable if both sides wanted it to be. It’s about the fact Eire (which will stay in the EU) conducts over 80% of its trade with the rest of the EU through the UK’s ferries, ports, roads and tunnels. It therefore needs as simple and streamlined Customs and goods clearance as possible, so all their lorries can be waved through without any bureaucracy. Particularly at Dover and Holyhead.

    Intra-Ireland trade is a distraction to this, which is basically just there to put political and moral pressure on HMG to make broader U.K. wide concessions.
    Though that may change with the new Dublin Zeebrugge aand Dublin Rotterdam RoRo ferries.

    https://afloat.ie/port-news/dublin-port/item/37536-world-s-largest-ro-ro-ferry-to-be-introduced-on-dublin-routes-linking-mainland-europe
    Yes, they are looking for a medium-long term mitigation in case things change. Wouldn’t you?

    Either way, overland through the UK will remain the fastest and cheapest route.
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    SandpitSandpit Posts: 49,847
    Foxy said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    Scott_P said:
    I felt like I was having a massive stroke reading that. May's preferred solution, which incidentally she can't overtly advocate, has already been rejected by the EU and the ERG but she's persisting with it anyway? I'm sure that's all going to end wonderfully.
    Nobody on this forum discusses the practicalities of Brexit anymore.
    I think that’s because too many posters are interested in pushing their own lines on Brexit rather than objectively analysing what’s actually going on.

    For example, the NI border is a huge dead cat. It’s not about the NI border, which could easily be solveable if both sides wanted it to be. It’s about the fact Eire (which will stay in the EU) conducts over 80% of its trade with the rest of the EU through the UK’s ferries, ports, roads and tunnels. It therefore needs as simple and streamlined Customs and goods clearance as possible, so all their lorries can be waved through without any bureaucracy. Particularly at Dover and Holyhead.

    Intra-Ireland trade is a distraction to this, which is basically just there to put political and moral pressure on HMG to make broader U.K. wide concessions.
    Though that may change with the new Dublin Zeebrugge aand Dublin Rotterdam RoRo ferries.

    https://afloat.ie/port-news/dublin-port/item/37536-world-s-largest-ro-ro-ferry-to-be-introduced-on-dublin-routes-linking-mainland-europe
    Which is great news for British roads, as thousands of lorries who contribute nothing except congestion, pollution and road wear take the waterborne bypass.
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    FoxyFoxy Posts: 44,531
    DavidL said:

    Sean_F said:

    Bercow is a dismally unpleasant man, but the Conservatives really don't need another opposition MP in the Commons right now, so let him remain Speaker.

    I see Rallings and Thrasher now calculate NEV at 37 Con, 36 Lab, 14 Lib Dem.

    If he stood down as Speaker he would leave the Commons. The Tories would get another MP from Buckingham and the next Speaker is likely to be from the Opposition benches (or JRM which is much the same). There are much bigger and more important priorities but I struggle to see Bercow standing down adversely affecting Parliamentary arithmetic for the government.
    I don't think that he will stand down, or be deposed, this side of Brexit Day Zero.
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    DavidLDavidL Posts: 51,131

    Dura_Ace said:

    Scott_P said:
    I felt like I was having a massive stroke reading that. May's preferred solution, which incidentally she can't overtly advocate, has already been rejected by the EU and the ERG but she's persisting with it anyway? I'm sure that's all going to end wonderfully.

    The ERG and the Corbynistas both want the hardest of hard Brexits because they believe that the immense economic pain this will cause will lead to changes that benefit them. It could just be that May is beginning to understand that the only way to avoid the calamity she created by triggering Article 50 without a plan or any cabinet consensus is to allow time for a Commons consensus that excludes the hard right and far left to build; while hoping that time also gives her the space to show the EU that, in practice, what she is advocating will be pretty much what we have now - both with regards to the CU and the Single Market. At some point, though, she will have a decision to make: what is best for the country or what is best for her. That can cannot be kicked down the path forever.

    I don't think that it is correct to say that the ERG wants a hard Brexit. What they want is cake and the eating of cake. They want a free trade, minimum bureaucracy, close relationship with the EU but the freedom to do whatever they want with everyone else.

    They remain convinced that the EU will give us this because it is very much in their economic interests to do so (which it is, of course). The empirical evidence supporting this viewpoint is slight but their conviction means that there are compromises that May is going to find it impossible to sell. Will politics trump economics? That, it seems to me, is the real question.
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    DavidLDavidL Posts: 51,131
    Foxy said:

    DavidL said:

    Sean_F said:

    Bercow is a dismally unpleasant man, but the Conservatives really don't need another opposition MP in the Commons right now, so let him remain Speaker.

    I see Rallings and Thrasher now calculate NEV at 37 Con, 36 Lab, 14 Lib Dem.

    If he stood down as Speaker he would leave the Commons. The Tories would get another MP from Buckingham and the next Speaker is likely to be from the Opposition benches (or JRM which is much the same). There are much bigger and more important priorities but I struggle to see Bercow standing down adversely affecting Parliamentary arithmetic for the government.
    I don't think that he will stand down, or be deposed, this side of Brexit Day Zero.
    Nor do I. That wasn't my point.
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    MortimerMortimer Posts: 13,936
    Scott_P said:
    All together now: economic arguments don't sway constitutional choices about the future.

    It's as if Project Fear-ers have learned nothing...
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    DavidLDavidL Posts: 51,131
    http://ec.europa.eu/eurostat/statistics-explained/index.php/Unemployment_statistics

    We have been amongst the fastest growing members of the EU since the crash. It was inevitable that some would catch up at some point. Hammond is not nearly as deft as Osborne was either.
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    JackWJackW Posts: 14,787
    Stormy Daniels on SNL ... Titter ... :smiley:

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-44021052
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    MortimerMortimer Posts: 13,936
    DavidL said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    Scott_P said:
    I felt like I was having a massive stroke reading that. May's preferred solution, which incidentally she can't overtly advocate, has already been rejected by the EU and the ERG but she's persisting with it anyway? I'm sure that's all going to end wonderfully.

    The ERG and the Corbynistas both want the hardest of hard Brexits because they believe that the immense economic pain this will cause will lead to changes that benefit them. It could just be that May is beginning to understand that the only way to avoid the calamity she created by triggering Article 50 without a plan or any cabinet consensus is to allow time for a Commons consensus that excludes the hard right and far left to build; while hoping that time also gives her the space to show the EU that, in practice, what she is advocating will be pretty much what we have now - both with regards to the CU and the Single Market. At some point, though, she will have a decision to make: what is best for the country or what is best for her. That can cannot be kicked down the path forever.

    I don't think that it is correct to say that the ERG wants a hard Brexit. What they want is cake and the eating of cake. They want a free trade, minimum bureaucracy, close relationship with the EU but the freedom to do whatever they want with everyone else.

    They remain convinced that the EU will give us this because it is very much in their economic interests to do so (which it is, of course). The empirical evidence supporting this viewpoint is slight but their conviction means that there are compromises that May is going to find it impossible to sell. Will politics trump economics? That, it seems to me, is the real question.
    That as close to a perfect explanation of the ERG'S position I've ever read on here. Others could take note.
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    AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 30,340
    DavidL said:

    http://ec.europa.eu/eurostat/statistics-explained/index.php/Unemployment_statistics

    We have been amongst the fastest growing members of the EU since the crash. It was inevitable that some would catch up at some point. Hammond is not nearly as deft as Osborne was either.
    Well that’s one gloss. Bottom of the class is another way of putting it.

    It would of course be idle to speculate why.
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    kle4kle4 Posts: 91,645

    Crikey.

    Bob Seely’s gone there.

    Writing in The Sunday Times, the Tory MP Bob Seely today questions whether Seumas Milne, Corbyn’s communications director, knowingly peddled the Kremlin’s views on the conflict in Ukraine in 2014 and 2015 when he was a columnist for The Guardian newspaper.

    Seely has studied leaked emails from aides to Vladimir Putin which show that Russia devised a plan to break up Ukraine by promoting federalism there. He found four instances of Milne repeating the same argument by calling for “regional autonomy”.

    Seely also identifies four other messages favoured by the Kremlin in Milne’s writings, including claims that Ukraine was governed by fascists and that Putin’s war was “defensive”.

    “I believe the question is not whether Milne was sympathetic to the Kremlin’s agenda, but whether he was — wittingly or not — a fellow traveller or an active agent of influence for the Kremlin. I look forward to challenging Jeremy Corbyn in parliament,” he writes.


    http://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/02465610-5076-11e8-84b1-71d01ab2ff8f

    Waste of time.
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    DavidLDavidL Posts: 51,131
    On a related point I have a Euro-devil from Italy working with me at the moment. He is an employment law solicitor in Milan.

    I was discussing the differences between our countries last week. The point he made was that practically every bar and restaurant in the Grassmarket had a sign up seeking additional staff. I didn't really notice this until he pointed it out. He said you never see that in Italy where youth unemployment is chronic and jobs are filled through social networks rather than being advertised.
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    Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 55,267
    DavidL said:

    http://ec.europa.eu/eurostat/statistics-explained/index.php/Unemployment_statistics

    We have been amongst the fastest growing members of the EU since the crash. It was inevitable that some would catch up at some point. Hammond is not nearly as deft as Osborne was either.
    The four biggest EU economies are in the bottom 7: Italy, France, Germany and the UK. Low growth is an issue for large, advanced, populous economies. Demographics has a big part to play.

    And I expect the economy to do better than that. Q1 was very sluggish, for a variety of reasons, and it has been in the UK for some years.
This discussion has been closed.