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politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » Tomorrow is the third anniversary of David Cameron of winning

SystemSystem Posts: 6,199
edited May 6 in General

imagepoliticalbetting.com » Blog Archive » Tomorrow is the third anniversary of David Cameron of winning a majority, here’s a few charts for your perusal

It appears some people need educating on what a good electoral performance is & how it compares to past results, well I'm here to help. Especially with tomorrow being the third anniversary of Cameron winning a majority.

Read the full story here


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Comments

  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 10,474
    First?
  • GIN1138GIN1138 Posts: 11,539
    I bet Dave wakes up nightly wishing he hadn't won that bloody majority! :D
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 10,474
    The country would have been better off remaining in coalition.
  • GIN1138GIN1138 Posts: 11,539
    edited May 6
    FPT


    See the latest ruse from the elite is to extend the "transition" period for the customs union for another two years!!!

    How many people who voted for Brexit will actually be dead before it happens? I'm 40 and even starting to wonder if I'll ever actually see it... :D
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 67,569
    GIN1138 said:

    FPT


    See the latest ruse from the elite is to extend the "transition" period for the customs union for another two years!!!

    How many people who voted for Brexit will actually be dead before it happens? I'm 40 and even starting to wonder if I'll ever actually see it... :D

    Turns out Brexit wouldn't be the easiest thing in the world to do.

    Who could have predicted that?
  • GIN1138GIN1138 Posts: 11,539

    GIN1138 said:

    FPT


    See the latest ruse from the elite is to extend the "transition" period for the customs union for another two years!!!

    How many people who voted for Brexit will actually be dead before it happens? I'm 40 and even starting to wonder if I'll ever actually see it... :D

    Turns out Brexit wouldn't be the easiest thing in the world to do.

    Who could have predicted that?
    Or the elite is just using every trick in the book to make sure it never actually happens... ;)
  • MarkHopkinsMarkHopkins Posts: 5,487

    GIN1138 said:

    FPT


    See the latest ruse from the elite is to extend the "transition" period for the customs union for another two years!!!

    How many people who voted for Brexit will actually be dead before it happens? I'm 40 and even starting to wonder if I'll ever actually see it... :D

    Turns out Brexit wouldn't be the easiest thing in the world to do.

    Who could have predicted that?

    Going to university, leaving home, getting married*, training, learning to drive (etc) all cause upheaval/difficulties of one kind or another - but are worth it.

    * Opinions may differ on this one.

  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 67,569
    GIN1138 said:

    GIN1138 said:

    FPT


    See the latest ruse from the elite is to extend the "transition" period for the customs union for another two years!!!

    How many people who voted for Brexit will actually be dead before it happens? I'm 40 and even starting to wonder if I'll ever actually see it... :D

    Turns out Brexit wouldn't be the easiest thing in the world to do.

    Who could have predicted that?
    Or the elite is just using every trick in the book to make sure it never actually happens... ;)
    Simple truth is David Davis and Liam Fox are idiots who couldn't organise a farting contest in a baked bean factory.

    Brexit should have been framed as a process not an event.
  • RecidivistRecidivist Posts: 2,076
    GIN1138 said:

    GIN1138 said:

    FPT


    See the latest ruse from the elite is to extend the "transition" period for the customs union for another two years!!!

    How many people who voted for Brexit will actually be dead before it happens? I'm 40 and even starting to wonder if I'll ever actually see it... :D

    Turns out Brexit wouldn't be the easiest thing in the world to do.

    Who could have predicted that?
    Or the elite is just using every trick in the book to make sure it never actually happens... ;)
    It is the elite who are behind Brexit.
  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 17,107
    edited May 6

    GIN1138 said:

    GIN1138 said:

    FPT


    See the latest ruse from the elite is to extend the "transition" period for the customs union for another two years!!!

    How many people who voted for Brexit will actually be dead before it happens? I'm 40 and even starting to wonder if I'll ever actually see it... :D

    Turns out Brexit wouldn't be the easiest thing in the world to do.

    Who could have predicted that?
    Or the elite is just using every trick in the book to make sure it never actually happens... ;)
    Simple truth is David Davis and Liam Fox are idiots who couldn't organise a farting contest in a baked bean factory.

    Brexit should have been framed as a process not an event.
    you lost to a bus, who are the idiots ?
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 67,569

    GIN1138 said:

    GIN1138 said:

    FPT


    See the latest ruse from the elite is to extend the "transition" period for the customs union for another two years!!!

    How many people who voted for Brexit will actually be dead before it happens? I'm 40 and even starting to wonder if I'll ever actually see it... :D

    Turns out Brexit wouldn't be the easiest thing in the world to do.

    Who could have predicted that?
    Or the elite is just using every trick in the book to make sure it never actually happens... ;)
    It is the elite who are behind Brexit.
    Nonsense, Old Etonians like Boris and Jacob Rees-Mogg, and fellow old Oxonian Gove are men of the people, they aren't elite.

    Being the son of the editor of The Times makes you working class.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 67,569

    GIN1138 said:

    GIN1138 said:

    FPT


    See the latest ruse from the elite is to extend the "transition" period for the customs union for another two years!!!

    How many people who voted for Brexit will actually be dead before it happens? I'm 40 and even starting to wonder if I'll ever actually see it... :D

    Turns out Brexit wouldn't be the easiest thing in the world to do.

    Who could have predicted that?
    Or the elite is just using every trick in the book to make sure it never actually happens... ;)
    Simple truth is David Davis and Liam Fox are idiots who couldn't organise a farting contest in a baked bean factory.

    Brexit should have been framed as a process not an event.
    you lost to a bus, who are the idiots ?
    Dave made a mistake by not going blue on blue during the referendum.

    I said he should have gone postal on Boris and Gove during the referendum.
  • GIN1138GIN1138 Posts: 11,539

    GIN1138 said:

    GIN1138 said:

    FPT


    See the latest ruse from the elite is to extend the "transition" period for the customs union for another two years!!!

    How many people who voted for Brexit will actually be dead before it happens? I'm 40 and even starting to wonder if I'll ever actually see it... :D

    Turns out Brexit wouldn't be the easiest thing in the world to do.

    Who could have predicted that?
    Or the elite is just using every trick in the book to make sure it never actually happens... ;)
    Simple truth is David Davis and Liam Fox are idiots who couldn't organise a farting contest in a baked bean factory.

    Brexit should have been framed as a process not an event.
    Don't you mean the disgraced Liam Fox? :D
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 67,569
    GIN1138 said:

    GIN1138 said:

    GIN1138 said:

    FPT


    See the latest ruse from the elite is to extend the "transition" period for the customs union for another two years!!!

    How many people who voted for Brexit will actually be dead before it happens? I'm 40 and even starting to wonder if I'll ever actually see it... :D

    Turns out Brexit wouldn't be the easiest thing in the world to do.

    Who could have predicted that?
    Or the elite is just using every trick in the book to make sure it never actually happens... ;)
    Simple truth is David Davis and Liam Fox are idiots who couldn't organise a farting contest in a baked bean factory.

    Brexit should have been framed as a process not an event.
    Don't you mean the disgraced Liam Fox? :D
    The heat is making me lose my touch.
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 11,991
    Rudy Julie doubling down.



    I wonder if Trump is now pretty much inoculated against any criticism, and the likes of Giuliani are just getting it all out there.

  • brendan16brendan16 Posts: 1,154
    GIN1138 said:

    FPT


    See the latest ruse from the elite is to extend the "transition" period for the customs union for another two years!!!

    How many people who voted for Brexit will actually be dead before it happens? I'm 40 and even starting to wonder if I'll ever actually see it... :D

    We will Brexit - I can't see anything stopping that. Whether anyone will notice the difference beyond losing our MEPs and voting rights is less clear.

    We may end up with a May fudge which pleases no one.
  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 17,107

    GIN1138 said:

    GIN1138 said:

    FPT


    See the latest ruse from the elite is to extend the "transition" period for the customs union for another two years!!!

    How many people who voted for Brexit will actually be dead before it happens? I'm 40 and even starting to wonder if I'll ever actually see it... :D

    Turns out Brexit wouldn't be the easiest thing in the world to do.

    Who could have predicted that?
    Or the elite is just using every trick in the book to make sure it never actually happens... ;)
    Simple truth is David Davis and Liam Fox are idiots who couldn't organise a farting contest in a baked bean factory.

    Brexit should have been framed as a process not an event.
    you lost to a bus, who are the idiots ?
    Dave made a mistake by not going blue on blue during the referendum.

    I said he should have gone postal on Boris and Gove during the referendum.
    Brexit is simple

    some blokes who didn't have to have called a referendum did

    they seriously misjudged the mood of the electorate

    they ran a totally crap campaign

    they lost

    they cant accept they lost

    they cant bring themselves to understand why



  • kle4kle4 Posts: 32,522
    I regret Cameron's downfall. Brexit needed resolving, one way or another (still does, in fact), and if it had been tacked earlier perhaps he would have been ok. The road not taken.
  • ElliotElliot Posts: 1,516

    GIN1138 said:

    GIN1138 said:

    FPT


    See the latest ruse from the elite is to extend the "transition" period for the customs union for another two years!!!

    How many people who voted for Brexit will actually be dead before it happens? I'm 40 and even starting to wonder if I'll ever actually see it... :D

    Turns out Brexit wouldn't be the easiest thing in the world to do.

    Who could have predicted that?
    Or the elite is just using every trick in the book to make sure it never actually happens... ;)
    It is the elite who are behind Brexit.
    Nonsense, Old Etonians like Boris and Jacob Rees-Mogg, and fellow old Oxonian Gove are men of the people, they aren't elite.

    Being the son of the editor of The Times makes you working class.
    And yet the highest bastion of elitism, the House of Lords, is currently the crux of the Remain plot to sabotage Brexit, voted for by the people.
  • PClippPClipp Posts: 1,641
    GIN1138 said:

    GIN1138 said:

    FPT

    See the latest ruse from the elite is to extend the "transition" period for the customs union for another two years!!!
    How many people who voted for Brexit will actually be dead before it happens? I'm 40 and even starting to wonder if I'll ever actually see it... :D

    Turns out Brexit wouldn't be the easiest thing in the world to do.
    Who could have predicted that?
    Or the elite is just using every trick in the book to make sure it never actually happens... ;)
    Don`t think you have got that quite right, Mr Gin. The elite are those in this Conservative-UKIP Cabinet and their chums and cronies. They thought they had "won", could interpret the result in whatever way they wished, and all at no inconvenience to themselves. They people are starting to see through their little tricks, and realise they have been sold out. By the Tory elite.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 32,522
    edited May 6
    Elliot said:

    GIN1138 said:

    GIN1138 said:

    FPT


    See the latest ruse from the elite is to extend the "transition" period for the customs union for another two years!!!

    How many people who voted for Brexit will actually be dead before it happens? I'm 40 and even starting to wonder if I'll ever actually see it... :D

    Turns out Brexit wouldn't be the easiest thing in the world to do.

    Who could have predicted that?
    Or the elite is just using every trick in the book to make sure it never actually happens... ;)
    It is the elite who are behind Brexit.
    Nonsense, Old Etonians like Boris and Jacob Rees-Mogg, and fellow old Oxonian Gove are men of the people, they aren't elite.

    Being the son of the editor of The Times makes you working class.
    And yet the highest bastion of elitism, the House of Lords, is currently the crux of the Remain plot to sabotage Brexit, voted for by the people.
    The elites were and are split on this issue, that's why it has been so much of an issue; if they were united it would not be as much of one. Elites claiming to be of the people is nothing new either, no more than, say, professional politicians in major political parties acting as though they are not part of the establishment, just because some of their ideas are not common.
  • NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 10,751
    GIN1138 said:

    FPT


    See the latest ruse from the elite is to extend the "transition" period for the customs union for another two years!!!

    How many people who voted for Brexit will actually be dead before it happens? I'm 40 and even starting to wonder if I'll ever actually see it... :D

    Brexit is a state of mind - it's fairly clear that the Government intends the reality to be as similar as possible to the current arrangement, with the potential to be different one day. Whether you feel that's what you voted for, only you can say! But it's arguably a fair interpretation of a 52-48 vote.
  • bigjohnowlsbigjohnowls Posts: 10,059
    Thank You TSE

    I am now educated.

    Can you do a graph of how long the Liberal Elite have been in power please
  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 5,360

    Thank You TSE

    I am now educated.

    Can you do a graph of how long the Liberal Elite have been in power please

    Brexit was an argument between one faction of the elite and another. One faction recruited the poor to their side and when their usefulness expires they will be discarded. If you genuinely think Brexit was a defeat of the elite, I have a bridge to sell you.
  • GIN1138GIN1138 Posts: 11,539
    edited May 6

    GIN1138 said:

    FPT


    See the latest ruse from the elite is to extend the "transition" period for the customs union for another two years!!!

    How many people who voted for Brexit will actually be dead before it happens? I'm 40 and even starting to wonder if I'll ever actually see it... :D

    Brexit is a state of mind - it's fairly clear that the Government intends the reality to be as similar as possible to the current arrangement, with the potential to be different one day. Whether you feel that's what you voted for, only you can say! But it's arguably a fair interpretation of a 52-48 vote.
    Well I voted to LEAVE... (and Cameron and Osborne even sent junk mail to me telling me leaving would mean exiting the single market and customs union - I put it back in the box - without a stamp - saying return to sender) so I don't know about a "state of mind"

    Anyway the weather is too lovely this afternoon to spend going round in circles about Brexit. :D
  • bigjohnowlsbigjohnowls Posts: 10,059
    viewcode said:

    Thank You TSE

    I am now educated.

    Can you do a graph of how long the Liberal Elite have been in power please

    Brexit was an argument between one faction of the elite and another. One faction recruited the poor to their side and when their usefulness expires they will be discarded. If you genuinely think Brexit was a defeat of the elite, I have a bridge to sell you.
    Of course it wasnt.

    Only Jezza as PM will smash the Liberal elite Concencus

    Then only if we have a more Non Liberal Elite PLP
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 67,569
    God I love our Ambassador to Washington.

  • kle4kle4 Posts: 32,522

    God I love our Ambassador to Washington.

    Interesting to call it a spat - I'd have thought it was just a bit of fun between ambassadors, who I would hope can take a joke about their histories (at least when the current nations are friends).
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 44,281
    Good afternoon, everyone.

    Very sunny. Be glad when it cools off, but the footage of the Tour de Yorkshire will do the county's tourism no harm at all.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 32,522
    edited May 6

    Good afternoon, everyone.

    Very sunny. Be glad when it cools off, but the footage of the Tour de Yorkshire will do the county's tourism no harm at all.

    "You, too, can enjoy this beautiful countryside if you dope or cheat to enter a cycling competition, then lie about it for years (those who 'cross the line' also accepted')"
  • another_richardanother_richard Posts: 11,571

    God I love our Ambassador to Washington.

    He seems a cut above the bedraggled old boiler who is the UK ambassador to the UN.
  • ElliotElliot Posts: 1,516

    GIN1138 said:

    FPT


    See the latest ruse from the elite is to extend the "transition" period for the customs union for another two years!!!

    How many people who voted for Brexit will actually be dead before it happens? I'm 40 and even starting to wonder if I'll ever actually see it... :D

    Turns out Brexit wouldn't be the easiest thing in the world to do.

    Who could have predicted that?
    The flawed assuption made was that Remain had democratic credentials and would unite behind getting a good deal after they lost.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 20,741
    Elliot said:

    GIN1138 said:

    FPT


    See the latest ruse from the elite is to extend the "transition" period for the customs union for another two years!!!

    How many people who voted for Brexit will actually be dead before it happens? I'm 40 and even starting to wonder if I'll ever actually see it... :D

    Turns out Brexit wouldn't be the easiest thing in the world to do.

    Who could have predicted that?
    The flawed assuption made was that Remain had democratic credentials and would unite behind getting a good deal after they lost.
    What would the unity solution for the Irish border look like?
  • SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 6,470
    The Tories over the border in Pendle have dug a big hole for the party to fall into...

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-44022663

    They need to U-turn and do it now.
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 19,155
    GIN1138 said:

    FPT


    See the latest ruse from the elite is to extend the "transition" period for the customs union for another two years!!!

    How many people who voted for Brexit will actually be dead before it happens? I'm 40 and even starting to wonder if I'll ever actually see it... :D

    That's Tories for you GIN, a scurrilous bunch of ne'er do wells and roasters. They will be filling their pockets for years on the turmoil.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 32,522

    The Tories over the border in Pendle have dug a big hole for the party to fall into...

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-44022663

    They need to U-turn and do it now.

    There may be an argument, in individual cases of suspension from any party, that a period of suspension and some other sanction might be appropriate, but this one seems pretty clear cut , and the wider effect on the party from having it thrown back in their face is also pretty clear cut. If the party do not find some way of casting her aside I will be surprised.
  • AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 20,611
    Leavers having a meltdown because what they assumed would be a ticker tape parade required a hard slog instead. Well colour me surprised.

    After they won a referendum with xenophobic lies, they should have thought about how they were going to seek to reunite the country. Instead they seem affronted that their opponents have not immediately become unalienated.
  • RobDRobD Posts: 33,272
    You've used the wrong color for the Labour (war criminal) Party bar. Shouldn't it be blue? :smiley:
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 19,090

    Elliot said:

    GIN1138 said:

    FPT


    See the latest ruse from the elite is to extend the "transition" period for the customs union for another two years!!!

    How many people who voted for Brexit will actually be dead before it happens? I'm 40 and even starting to wonder if I'll ever actually see it... :D

    Turns out Brexit wouldn't be the easiest thing in the world to do.

    Who could have predicted that?
    The flawed assuption made was that Remain had democratic credentials and would unite behind getting a good deal after they lost.
    What would the unity solution for the Irish border look like?
    On the British side, exactly as it does now.

    On the Irish side, that’s up to them and their EU masters.
  • CookieCookie Posts: 963

    Good afternoon, everyone.

    Very sunny. Be glad when it cools off, but the footage of the Tour de Yorkshire will do the county's tourism no harm at all.

    Good grief this country is glorious when the weather is like this. I am on holiday in Herefordshire with a group of friends and their families - went out for a bike ride along the Anglo-Welsh border this morning: the countryside here is impossibly beautiful. Got to the top of some relatively little-know hills called the Begwns, from where there is an amazing, panoramic 360 degree view. You should all go there tomorrow.

    Now it's shade-seeking weather, so I am on the edge of the garden watching a badminton tournament unfold. Life at its best.
  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 5,360
    Sandpit said:

    Elliot said:

    GIN1138 said:

    FPT


    See the latest ruse from the elite is to extend the "transition" period for the customs union for another two years!!!

    How many people who voted for Brexit will actually be dead before it happens? I'm 40 and even starting to wonder if I'll ever actually see it... :D

    Turns out Brexit wouldn't be the easiest thing in the world to do.

    Who could have predicted that?
    The flawed assuption made was that Remain had democratic credentials and would unite behind getting a good deal after they lost.
    What would the unity solution for the Irish border look like?
    On the British side, exactly as it does now.

    On the Irish side, that’s up to them and their EU masters.
    Vote Leave. Give control to the EU.
  • Thank You TSE

    I am now educated.

    Can you do a graph of how long the Liberal Elite have been in power please

    I would say they took power in the late 1820s
  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 5,360
    Elliot said:

    GIN1138 said:

    FPT


    See the latest ruse from the elite is to extend the "transition" period for the customs union for another two years!!!

    How many people who voted for Brexit will actually be dead before it happens? I'm 40 and even starting to wonder if I'll ever actually see it... :D

    Turns out Brexit wouldn't be the easiest thing in the world to do.

    Who could have predicted that?
    The flawed assuption made was that Remain had democratic credentials and would unite behind getting a good deal after they lost.
    The minute you achieve a good deal, be sure to tell us.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 19,090
    viewcode said:

    Sandpit said:

    Elliot said:

    GIN1138 said:

    FPT


    See the latest ruse from the elite is to extend the "transition" period for the customs union for another two years!!!

    How many people who voted for Brexit will actually be dead before it happens? I'm 40 and even starting to wonder if I'll ever actually see it... :D

    Turns out Brexit wouldn't be the easiest thing in the world to do.

    Who could have predicted that?
    The flawed assuption made was that Remain had democratic credentials and would unite behind getting a good deal after they lost.
    What would the unity solution for the Irish border look like?
    On the British side, exactly as it does now.

    On the Irish side, that’s up to them and their EU masters.
    Vote Leave. Give control to the EU.
    Let the EU control their own country, meanwhile we take back control and can do as we please.
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 44,281
    Mr. Cookie, when perambulating with the hound it was very nice indeed in a shady, breezy spot. In the still sunlight, it was rather close.

    Mr. Sandpit, indeed.
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 44,281
    Interesting week in Parliament ahead.



    And on Wednesday there's a vote in which Labour will seek to regulate the press in a way that hasn't happened since the 17th century.

  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 20,710

    viewcode said:

    Thank You TSE

    I am now educated.

    Can you do a graph of how long the Liberal Elite have been in power please

    Brexit was an argument between one faction of the elite and another. One faction recruited the poor to their side and when their usefulness expires they will be discarded. If you genuinely think Brexit was a defeat of the elite, I have a bridge to sell you.
    Of course it wasnt.

    Only Jezza as PM will smash the Liberal elite Concencus

    Then only if we have a more Non Liberal Elite PLP
    Yeah, Jezza'll bring in an illiberal Elite consensus of anti-semites, Holocaust deniers and friends of terrorists.

    That's your side, that is. ;)
  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 5,360
    edited May 6
    Sandpit said:

    viewcode said:

    Sandpit said:

    Elliot said:

    GIN1138 said:

    FPT


    See the latest ruse from the elite is to extend the "transition" period for the customs union for another two years!!!

    How many people who voted for Brexit will actually be dead before it happens? I'm 40 and even starting to wonder if I'll ever actually see it... :D

    Turns out Brexit wouldn't be the easiest thing in the world to do.

    Who could have predicted that?
    The flawed assuption made was that Remain had democratic credentials and would unite behind getting a good deal after they lost.
    What would the unity solution for the Irish border look like?
    On the British side, exactly as it does now.

    On the Irish side, that’s up to them and their EU masters.
    Vote Leave. Give control to the EU.
    Let the EU control their own country, meanwhile we take back control and can do as we please.
    The point I was making was that when it comes to the border between the Republic of Ireland and the UK, we cannot maintain the present seamless travel arrangements without the cooperation of Ireland and the EU. As you correctly point out, we can impose any restriction we wish on those coming in, but that is a change from the status quo currently desired by the UK. Politicians and people are reacting to this dilemma by - again - "failing and blaming": witness Arlene moaning about Barnier, Hannan[1] wondering if the Good Friday Agreement is still fit for purpose, and so on.

    Your remark about "them and their EU masters" was symptomatic of a characteristic I have frequently bemoaned (the word is unusually appropriate!) on PB: namely the fact that many people in the UK are constitutionally incapable of realising that Ireland is a country in its own right, and with its own government and goals which may or may not align with the UK and which may sometimes actively act against it. Is it really too difficult to realise that Ireland may be its own master and not subservient to the EU?

    [1] Might have got the wrong politician here: if so, apols.
  • felixfelix Posts: 7,802

    The Tories over the border in Pendle have dug a big hole for the party to fall into...

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-44022663

    They need to U-turn and do it now.

    Maybe - when are Labour going to suspend McDonnell for his comments regarding Esther McVee?
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 19,090
    edited May 6
    viewcode said:

    Sandpit said:

    viewcode said:

    Sandpit said:

    Elliot said:

    GIN1138 said:

    .

    .
    The flawed assuption made was that Remain had democratic credentials and would unite behind getting a good deal after they lost.
    What would the unity solution for the Irish border look like?
    On the British side, exactly as it does now.

    On the Irish side, that’s up to them and their EU masters.
    Vote Leave. Give control to the EU.
    Let the EU control their own country, meanwhile we take back control and can do as we please.
    The point I was making was that when it comes to the border between the Republic of Ireland and the UK, we cannot maintain the present seamless travel arrangements without the cooperation of Ireland and the EU. As you correctly point out, we can impose any restriction we wish on those coming in, but that is a change from the status quo currently desired by the UK. Politicians and people are reacting to this dilemma by - again - "failing and blaming": witness Arlene moaning about Barnier, Hannan[1] wondering if the Good Friday Agreement is still fit for purpose, and so on.

    Your remark about "them and their EU masters" was symptomatic of a characteristic I have frequently bemoaned (the word is unusually appropriate!) on PB: namely the fact that many people in the UK are constitutionally incapable of realising that Ireland is a country in its own right, and with its own government and goals which may or may not align with the UK and which may sometimes actively act against it. Is it really too difficult to realise that Ireland may be its own master and not subservient to the EU?

    [1] Might have got the wrong politician here: if so, apols.
    It would be brilliant if we could sit down with the Irish and decide how we can maintain the current arrangement with minimal change, but sadly that’s not allowed.

    The RoI, as EU members have subcontracted their trade policy to Brussels. We are not and can not negotiate with Ireland, only with the EU. The Irish have been told that they have to enforce a hard border because that is what EU law requires. I’d much prefer for the British and the Irish to be able to discuss and agree on what happens to the border, but we are not allowed to do so.

    Sadly, the EU side are no longer negotiating in good faith, they are actively finding reasons to keep the clock running down, dismissing out of hand everything we propose and intending to present us with an 11th hour binary choice of either signing up to be members but without a seat at the table, or to crash out and the planes stop flying
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 3,425

    Thank You TSE

    I am now educated.

    Can you do a graph of how long the Liberal Elite have been in power please

    I would say they took power in the late 1820s
    I blame the 1832 Reform Act.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 3,425
    Sandpit said:

    Elliot said:

    GIN1138 said:

    FPT


    See the latest ruse from the elite is to extend the "transition" period for the customs union for another two years!!!

    How many people who voted for Brexit will actually be dead before it happens? I'm 40 and even starting to wonder if I'll ever actually see it... :D

    Turns out Brexit wouldn't be the easiest thing in the world to do.

    Who could have predicted that?
    The flawed assuption made was that Remain had democratic credentials and would unite behind getting a good deal after they lost.
    What would the unity solution for the Irish border look like?
    On the British side, exactly as it does now.

    On the Irish side, that’s up to them and their EU masters.
    Take back Control of our Borders! *

    *Offer excludes our only land border...
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 501
    felix said:

    The Tories over the border in Pendle have dug a big hole for the party to fall into...

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-44022663

    They need to U-turn and do it now.

    Maybe - when are Labour going to suspend McDonnell for his comments regarding Esther McVee?
    Perhaps when you can spell her name?
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 11,447
    Foxy said:

    Sandpit said:

    Elliot said:

    GIN1138 said:

    FPT


    See the latest ruse from the elite is to extend the "transition" period for the customs union for another two years!!!

    How many people who voted for Brexit will actually be dead before it happens? I'm 40 and even starting to wonder if I'll ever actually see it... :D

    Turns out Brexit wouldn't be the easiest thing in the world to do.

    Who could have predicted that?
    The flawed assuption made was that Remain had democratic credentials and would unite behind getting a good deal after they lost.
    What would the unity solution for the Irish border look like?
    On the British side, exactly as it does now.

    On the Irish side, that’s up to them and their EU masters.
    Take back Control of our Borders! *

    *Offer excludes our only land border...
    You're forgetting Gibraltar.

    I can't help but wonder if we might bodge something on Ireland where the consequences of no deal would be pretty serious for the Irish, only to stumble over Spain and the Rock, again.
  • NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 10,751

    Interesting week in Parliament ahead.



    And on Wednesday there's a vote in which Labour will seek to regulate the press in a way that hasn't happened since the 17th century.

    Hysteria * 2
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 44,281
    Mr. Palmer, Labour, in particular Watson, have form on supporting Max Mosley's censorious and unacceptable approach to press regulation.

    Given the number of Lords defeats on the EU recently, it will be interesting to see how the next vote goes.
  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 5,360
    Sandpit said:

    It would be brilliant if we could sit down with the Irish and decide how we can maintain the current arrangement with minimal change, but sadly that’s not allowed.

    The RoI, as EU members have subcontracted their trade policy to Brussels. We are not and can not negotiate with Ireland, only with the EU. The Irish have been told that they have to enforce a hard border because that is what EU law requires. I’d much prefer for the British and the Irish to be able to discuss and agree on what happens to the border, but we are not allowed to do so.

    Sadly, the EU side are no longer negotiating in good faith, they are actively finding reasons to keep the clock running down, dismissing out of hand everything we propose and intending to present us with an 11th hour binary choice of either signing up to be members but without a seat at the table, or to crash out and the planes stop flying

    Thank you for the detailed reply, but it does rather concede my points: namely,that you believe that:

    a) the EU are imposing this on RoI and
    b) the UK is going to fail at its negotiations and that this is the fault of the EU, and
    c) power in this case lies with the EU and not the UK.

    One of the reasons why I was so fervently Remain is that Leavers were confusing "control" with "power": "control" is the ability to set laws and issue instructions and is very legalistic and polite, but "power" is the ability to enforce actions upon others and is very visceral and impolite. Your stance implies that I was correct: we have gained control but lost power; we can decide what we do to ourselves but we cannot decide what others do to us.

    But it is far too nice today for a rant, and I have other things to do today, so please excuse me for a bit.
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 8,688
    edited May 6

    viewcode said:

    Thank You TSE

    I am now educated.

    Can you do a graph of how long the Liberal Elite have been in power please

    Brexit was an argument between one faction of the elite and another. One faction recruited the poor to their side and when their usefulness expires they will be discarded. If you genuinely think Brexit was a defeat of the elite, I have a bridge to sell you.
    Of course it wasnt.

    Only Jezza as PM will smash the Liberal elite Concencus

    Then only if we have a more Non Liberal Elite PLP
    Jezza is possibly a liberal and after 35 years in the HoC the very epitome of the elite.
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 29,384
    I think we can add 'nasty' to 'barking':

  • Foxy said:

    Thank You TSE

    I am now educated.

    Can you do a graph of how long the Liberal Elite have been in power please

    I would say they took power in the late 1820s
    I blame the 1832 Reform Act.
    The failed reform bills and the passing of the 1832 Act were the first consequence of the Liberal Elite taking control. They then entrenched their position with the Municipal Reform Act and the PLAA ( Poor Laws Amendment Act ). The Liberal Benthamites were sufficiently ruthless that even when the Liberals were out of power the Tories and the Conservatives worked within their legislative arrangements.

    And that is what makes Brexit so incredible for them. They felt the people had betrayed them when they elected Thatcher. But, Brexit is the first time the people have overturned the rules the Liberal Elite has set for playing the game.
  • RecidivistRecidivist Posts: 2,076

    Foxy said:

    Thank You TSE

    I am now educated.

    Can you do a graph of how long the Liberal Elite have been in power please

    I would say they took power in the late 1820s
    I blame the 1832 Reform Act.
    The failed reform bills and the passing of the 1832 Act were the first consequence of the Liberal Elite taking control. They then entrenched their position with the Municipal Reform Act and the PLAA ( Poor Laws Amendment Act ). The Liberal Benthamites were sufficiently ruthless that even when the Liberals were out of power the Tories and the Conservatives worked within their legislative arrangements.

    And that is what makes Brexit so incredible for them. They felt the people had betrayed them when they elected Thatcher. But, Brexit is the first time the people have overturned the rules the Liberal Elite has set for playing the game.
    You live in a fantasy world.
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 22,363

    I think we can add 'nasty' to 'barking':

    At what point did Andrew Adonis go mad?
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 43,711
    edited May 6
    Interesting chart.

    The most successful winners of election majorities since WW2 are first Thatcher, Blair and Wilson with 3 each.

    Then Attlee with 2. Then Churchill, Eden, Macmillan, Heath, Major and Cameron with 1 each

    So 5 One Nation Tories, 2 Old Labour leaders, 1 rightwing Thatcherite Tory, 1 New Labour leader. Churchill appealed to both One Nation and right wing Tories.

    That suggests One Nation Toryism is the default ideology of most voters
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 19,090
    Sean_F said:

    I think we can add 'nasty' to 'barking':

    At what point did Andrew Adonis go mad?
    Morning of 24th June 2016?
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 29,384
    Sean_F said:

    I think we can add 'nasty' to 'barking':

    At what point did Andrew Adonis go mad?
    Experts differ....but early in the morning of 24 June 2016 is a frequent suggestion....
  • NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 10,751

    Mr. Palmer, Labour, in particular Watson, have form on supporting Max Mosley's censorious and unacceptable approach to press regulation.

    Given the number of Lords defeats on the EU recently, it will be interesting to see how the next vote goes.

    Don't care for Mosley, but I do think our press is a disgrace, and its self-serving rejection of decent rebuttals with equal prominence when they turn out to have lied is a double disgrace. To portrayt it as the end of press freedom is Just Silly.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 20,710

    Mr. Palmer, Labour, in particular Watson, have form on supporting Max Mosley's censorious and unacceptable approach to press regulation.

    Given the number of Lords defeats on the EU recently, it will be interesting to see how the next vote goes.

    Don't care for Mosley, but I do think our press is a disgrace, and its self-serving rejection of decent rebuttals with equal prominence when they turn out to have lied is a double disgrace. To portrayt it as the end of press freedom is Just Silly.
    I'd take that view with a little more seriousness if you hadn't used that very same press to get a fellow MP sacked from her job for a 'joke' she made at a private dinner.

    I therefore take it that the press is a disgrace until such time as they're useful ...
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 44,281
    Mr. Palmer, it was the press that revealed the Rotherham child abuse, and the expenses scandal. They're far from perfect, but having the state regulate it in such a way hasn't been done since the 17th century. Free speech us under assault from the terminally offended, religious zealots, and authoritarian politicians. Free press is essential in a democracy and I have no faith increased regulation backed by the political class can be trusted to be fair or just.
  • Stark_DawningStark_Dawning Posts: 3,626
    Sean_F said:

    I think we can add 'nasty' to 'barking':

    At what point did Andrew Adonis go mad?
    Why does someone tweeting a cartoon suggest they're insane?
  • ExiledInScotlandExiledInScotland Posts: 318

    Mr. Palmer, it was the press that revealed the Rotherham child abuse, and the expenses scandal. They're far from perfect, but having the state regulate it in such a way hasn't been done since the 17th century. Free speech us under assault from the terminally offended, religious zealots, and authoritarian politicians. Free press is essential in a democracy and I have no faith increased regulation backed by the political class can be trusted to be fair or just.

    Agreed. Politicians will be among the first to hide their peccadilloes behind such laws while intruding into our lives. The fourth estate are a vital counterbalance.
  • TheWhiteRabbitTheWhiteRabbit Posts: 7,619

    Sean_F said:

    I think we can add 'nasty' to 'barking':

    At what point did Andrew Adonis go mad?
    Why does someone tweeting a cartoon suggest they're insane?
    ... have you seen his twitter recently??
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 11,991
    HYUFD said:

    Interesting chart.

    The most successful winners of election majorities since WW2 are first Thatcher, Blair and Wilson with 3 each.

    Then Attlee with 2. Then Churchill, Eden, Macmillan, Heath, Major and Cameron with 1 each

    So 5 One Nation Tories, 2 Old Labour leaders, 1 rightwing Thatcherite Tory, 1 New Labour leader. Churchill appealed to both One Nation and right wing Tories.

    That suggests One Nation Toryism is the default ideology of most voters

    So in the last 44 years that default ideolgy managed to vote in one One Nation Tory pm for 5 years of minority govenment, and 1 year of smallish majority government? Not what you'd call overwhelmingly successful for the poor old defaulter.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 3,425
    edited May 6

    Foxy said:

    Thank You TSE

    I am now educated.

    Can you do a graph of how long the Liberal Elite have been in power please

    I would say they took power in the late 1820s
    I blame the 1832 Reform Act.
    The failed reform bills and the passing of the 1832 Act were the first consequence of the Liberal Elite taking control. They then entrenched their position with the Municipal Reform Act and the PLAA ( Poor Laws Amendment Act ). The Liberal Benthamites were sufficiently ruthless that even when the Liberals were out of power the Tories and the Conservatives worked within their legislative arrangements.

    And that is what makes Brexit so incredible for them. They felt the people had betrayed them when they elected Thatcher. But, Brexit is the first time the people have overturned the rules the Liberal Elite has set for playing the game.
    Beyond parody, but at least you have the advantage of having an LD MP and Council in Cumbria tolearn about Liberalism from. :)
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 24,921
    Sean_F said:

    I think we can add 'nasty' to 'barking':

    At what point did Andrew Adonis go mad?
    He takes pride in his label as the Farage of the Centre, and has now started to live up to it.

    I see he’s deleted it now with an apology. Good.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 11,447
    Sean_F said:

    I think we can add 'nasty' to 'barking':

    At what point did Andrew Adonis go mad?
    Wrong question.

    The question is, 'has there ever been a moment when Lord Adonis was sane?'

    This is the man who gave us these:

    https://www.theguardian.com/education/2005/jun/28/schools.newschools
  • Stark_DawningStark_Dawning Posts: 3,626

    Sean_F said:

    I think we can add 'nasty' to 'barking':

    At what point did Andrew Adonis go mad?
    Why does someone tweeting a cartoon suggest they're insane?
    ... have you seen his twitter recently??
    No I haven't. Presumably he isn't a slavish advocate of ultra Hard Brexit and his lips aren't firmly stapled to Theresa's buttocks. Therefore his mental health has to be questioned.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 43,711

    HYUFD said:

    Interesting chart.

    The most successful winners of election majorities since WW2 are first Thatcher, Blair and Wilson with 3 each.

    Then Attlee with 2. Then Churchill, Eden, Macmillan, Heath, Major and Cameron with 1 each

    So 5 One Nation Tories, 2 Old Labour leaders, 1 rightwing Thatcherite Tory, 1 New Labour leader. Churchill appealed to both One Nation and right wing Tories.

    That suggests One Nation Toryism is the default ideology of most voters

    So in the last 44 years that default ideolgy managed to vote in one One Nation Tory pm for 5 years of minority govenment, and 1 year of smallish majority government? Not what you'd call overwhelmingly successful for the poor old defaulter.
    May too is arguably One Nation Tory and comfortably won most seats at the last general election even if not a majority
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 11,447

    Sean_F said:

    I think we can add 'nasty' to 'barking':

    At what point did Andrew Adonis go mad?
    Why does someone tweeting a cartoon suggest they're insane?
    ... have you seen his twitter recently??
    No I haven't. Presumably he isn't a slavish advocate of ultra Hard Brexit and his lips aren't firmly stapled to Theresa's buttocks. Therefore his mental health has to be questioned.
    He is in fairness increasingly looking like James Chapman Mark II.

    Whatever happened to him, by the way?
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 11,447

    HYUFD said:

    Interesting chart.

    The most successful winners of election majorities since WW2 are first Thatcher, Blair and Wilson with 3 each.

    Then Attlee with 2. Then Churchill, Eden, Macmillan, Heath, Major and Cameron with 1 each

    So 5 One Nation Tories, 2 Old Labour leaders, 1 rightwing Thatcherite Tory, 1 New Labour leader. Churchill appealed to both One Nation and right wing Tories.

    That suggests One Nation Toryism is the default ideology of most voters

    So in the last 44 years that default ideolgy managed to vote in one One Nation Tory pm for 5 years of minority govenment, and 1 year of smallish majority government? Not what you'd call overwhelmingly successful for the poor old defaulter.
    When was this 5 years of minority government you're talking about TUD?
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 43,711
    edited May 6
    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Interesting chart.

    The most successful winners of election majorities since WW2 are first Thatcher, Blair and Wilson with 3 each.

    Then Attlee with 2. Then Churchill, Eden, Macmillan, Heath, Major and Cameron with 1 each

    So 5 One Nation Tories, 2 Old Labour leaders, 1 rightwing Thatcherite Tory, 1 New Labour leader. Churchill appealed to both One Nation and right wing Tories.

    That suggests One Nation Toryism is the default ideology of most voters

    So in the last 44 years that default ideolgy managed to vote in one One Nation Tory pm for 5 years of minority govenment, and 1 year of smallish majority government? Not what you'd call overwhelmingly successful for the poor old defaulter.
    May too is arguably One Nation Tory and comfortably won most seats at the last general election even if not a majority
    Blair was also a One Nation Tory in many respects just with New Labour packaging
  • Stark_DawningStark_Dawning Posts: 3,626
    ydoethur said:

    Sean_F said:

    I think we can add 'nasty' to 'barking':

    At what point did Andrew Adonis go mad?
    Why does someone tweeting a cartoon suggest they're insane?
    ... have you seen his twitter recently??
    No I haven't. Presumably he isn't a slavish advocate of ultra Hard Brexit and his lips aren't firmly stapled to Theresa's buttocks. Therefore his mental health has to be questioned.
    He is in fairness increasingly looking like James Chapman Mark II.

    Whatever happened to him, by the way?
    James Chapman was a national treasure, who brought sweetness and optimism to gloomy Brexit Britain. I miss him. Such a shame he was bullied into silence by the Brexit elite who pronounced his as seditious.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 11,447

    ydoethur said:

    Sean_F said:

    I think we can add 'nasty' to 'barking':

    At what point did Andrew Adonis go mad?
    Why does someone tweeting a cartoon suggest they're insane?
    ... have you seen his twitter recently??
    No I haven't. Presumably he isn't a slavish advocate of ultra Hard Brexit and his lips aren't firmly stapled to Theresa's buttocks. Therefore his mental health has to be questioned.
    He is in fairness increasingly looking like James Chapman Mark II.

    Whatever happened to him, by the way?
    James Chapman was a national treasure, who brought sweetness and optimism to gloomy Brexit Britain. I miss him. Such a shame he was bullied into silence by the Brexit elite who pronounced his as seditious.
    You are Alistair Campbell and I claim my £5!
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 15,885
    There's a missing bar on your graph TSE.

    Number of years since Marxist-Bennite government had a working majority is infinity.

    It is dubious to class the current Labour set-up as 'Old Labour'. I doubt Callaghan, Wilson, Kinnock, Atlee and co would have any truck with Corbynism.

    Indeed, we know the first three didn't, as they spent so much time trying to deal with Benn.
  • GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 699
    The size of the Civil Service has nearly halved since around 1975. Can any older posters advise if the quality of government (excluding party politics) has decreased in line with this?
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 20,741
    Sandpit said:

    viewcode said:

    Sandpit said:

    viewcode said:

    Sandpit said:

    Elliot said:

    GIN1138 said:

    .

    .
    The flawed assuption made was that Remain had democratic credentials and would unite behind getting a good deal after they lost.
    What would the unity solution for the Irish border look like?
    On the British side, exactly as it does now.

    On the Irish side, that’s up to them and their EU masters.
    Vote Leave. Give control to the EU.
    Let the EU control their own country, meanwhile we take back control and can do as we please.
    The point I was making was that when it comes to the border between the Republic of Ireland and the UK, we cannot maintain the present seamless travel arrangements without the cooperation of Ireland and the EU. As you correctly point out, we can impose any restriction we wish on those coming in, but that is a change from the status quo currently desired by the UK. Politicians and people are reacting to this dilemma by - again - "failing and blaming": witness Arlene moaning about Barnier, Hannan[1] wondering if the Good Friday Agreement is still fit for purpose, and so on.

    Your remark about "them and their EU masters" was symptomatic of a characteristic I have frequently bemoaned (the word is unusually appropriate!) on PB: namely the fact that many people in the UK are constitutionally incapable of realising that Ireland is a country in its own right, and with its own government and goals which may or may not align with the UK and which may sometimes actively act against it. Is it really too difficult to realise that Ireland may be its own master and not subservient to the EU?

    [1] Might have got the wrong politician here: if so, apols.
    It would be brilliant if we could sit down with the Irish and decide how we can maintain the current arrangement with minimal change, but sadly that’s not allowed.
    Translation: It would be brilliant if we could just tell Ireland what our plan is and they would have no choice but to accept it, but sadly they are part of a union that gives them the upper hand so that isn’t the case.
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 44,281
    Mr. Gate, to be fair, when Rome had a tiny civil service it was far better run than in later years. The policy of doing almost nothing but collecting (small) taxes and smashing insurrections worked incredibly well.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 3,425

    The size of the Civil Service has nearly halved since around 1975. Can any older posters advise if the quality of government (excluding party politics) has decreased in line with this?

    Well, it doesn't seem to have helped the Home Office.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 11,447

    The size of the Civil Service has nearly halved since around 1975. Can any older posters advise if the quality of government (excluding party politics) has decreased in line with this?

    Does that include the reclassification of museum workers, librarians, transport administrators etc as charity workers or private sector employees?
  • GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 699
    edited May 6
    ydoethur said:

    The size of the Civil Service has nearly halved since around 1975. Can any older posters advise if the quality of government (excluding party politics) has decreased in line with this?

    Does that include the reclassification of museum workers, librarians, transport administrators etc as charity workers or private sector employees?
    Good point.

    My interpretation of the numbers here (http://www.civilservant.org.uk/information-numbers.html) mean that excluding museum workers, librarians, transport administrators etc the number has reduced by 40%.
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 11,991
    edited May 6
    ydoethur said:

    HYUFD said:

    Interesting chart.

    The most successful winners of election majorities since WW2 are first Thatcher, Blair and Wilson with 3 each.

    Then Attlee with 2. Then Churchill, Eden, Macmillan, Heath, Major and Cameron with 1 each

    So 5 One Nation Tories, 2 Old Labour leaders, 1 rightwing Thatcherite Tory, 1 New Labour leader. Churchill appealed to both One Nation and right wing Tories.

    That suggests One Nation Toryism is the default ideology of most voters

    So in the last 44 years that default ideolgy managed to vote in one One Nation Tory pm for 5 years of minority govenment, and 1 year of smallish majority government? Not what you'd call overwhelmingly successful for the poor old defaulter.
    When was this 5 years of minority government you're talking about TUD?
    Sorry, coalition government. Though to judge by the constant allusions to the whiny, recalcitrant, ungrateful Libdems on here, it might as well have been a minority government.
  • TheWhiteRabbitTheWhiteRabbit Posts: 7,619

    Sean_F said:

    I think we can add 'nasty' to 'barking':

    At what point did Andrew Adonis go mad?
    Why does someone tweeting a cartoon suggest they're insane?
    ... have you seen his twitter recently??
    No I haven't. Presumably he isn't a slavish advocate of ultra Hard Brexit and his lips aren't firmly stapled to Theresa's buttocks. Therefore his mental health has to be questioned.
    Stark

    Andrew Adonis has gone from a run-of-the-mill Blairite to a an expert in everything. Last week education policy, the week before that archaeology - but most of all Brexit. He thinks everything is easy, thinks himself a genius and everyone else idiots. A giant among pygmies. It makes a mockery of any sensible attempt to advocate an anti-Brexit policy.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 19,090
    edited May 6

    Sandpit said:

    viewcode said:

    Sandpit said:

    viewcode said:

    Sandpit said:

    Elliot said:

    GIN1138 said:

    .

    .
    The flawed assuption made was that Remain had democratic credentials and would unite behind getting a good deal after they lost.
    What would the unity solution for the Irish border look like?
    On the British side, exactly as it does now.

    On the Irish side, that’s up to them and their EU masters.
    Vote Leave. Give control to the EU.
    Let the EU control their own country, meanwhile we take back control and can do as we please.
    The point I was making was that when it comes to the border between the Republic of Ireland and the UK, we cannot maintain the present seamless travel arrangements without the cooperation of Ireland and the EU. As you correctly point out, we can impose any restriction we wish on those coming in, but that is a change from the status quo currently desired by the UK. Politicians and people are reacting to this dilemma by - again - "failing and blaming": witness Arlene moaning about Barnier, Hannan[1] wondering if the Good Friday Agreement is still fit for purpose, and so on.

    Your remark about "them and their EU masters" was symptomatic of a characteristic I have frequently bemoaned (the word is unusually appropriate!) on PB: namely the fact that many people in the UK are constitutionally incapable of realising that Ireland is a country in its own right, and with its own government and goals which may or may not align with the UK and which may sometimes actively act against it. Is it really too difficult to realise that Ireland may be its own master and not subservient to the EU?

    [1] Might have got the wrong politician here: if so, apols.
    It would be brilliant if we could sit down with the Irish and decide how we can maintain the current arrangement with minimal change, but sadly that’s not allowed.
    Translation: It would be brilliant if we could just tell Ireland what our plan is and they would have no choice but to accept it, but sadly they are part of a union that gives them the upper hand so that isn’t the case.
    Not at all, I said it would be great if we could negotiate with Ireland - but they won’t let us. We have to negotiate with the EU instead, who are not interested in negotiating a deal that’s mutually beneficial in good faith, only a deal that’s completely one-sided and presented as an eleventh hour fait accompli.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 11,447

    ydoethur said:

    The size of the Civil Service has nearly halved since around 1975. Can any older posters advise if the quality of government (excluding party politics) has decreased in line with this?

    Does that include the reclassification of museum workers, librarians, transport administrators etc as charity workers or private sector employees?
    Good point.

    My interpretation of the numbers here (http://www.civilservant.org.uk/information-numbers.html) mean that excluding museum workers, librarians, transport administrators etc the number has reduced by 40%.
    A more pertinent question might be, did the size of the Civil Service in the 1970s lead to good government?

    You might find this blogpost on the size of the Civil Service in the nineteenth century of interest:

    http://blog.nationalarchives.gov.uk/blog/uk-government-did-we-rule-the-empire-with-4000-civil-servants/

    They omit what i still think is the most amazing statistic: until 1908, excluding customs and excise officers, there were just 25 civil servants in the Treasury. And they were very, very proud that despite a vast increase in workload they hadn't had to increase the number of staff.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 20,741

    Sean_F said:

    I think we can add 'nasty' to 'barking':

    At what point did Andrew Adonis go mad?
    Why does someone tweeting a cartoon suggest they're insane?
    ... have you seen his twitter recently??
    No I haven't. Presumably he isn't a slavish advocate of ultra Hard Brexit and his lips aren't firmly stapled to Theresa's buttocks. Therefore his mental health has to be questioned.
    Stark

    Andrew Adonis has gone from a run-of-the-mill Blairite to a an expert in everything. Last week education policy, the week before that archaeology - but most of all Brexit. He thinks everything is easy, thinks himself a genius and everyone else idiots. A giant among pygmies. It makes a mockery of any sensible attempt to advocate an anti-Brexit policy.
    He’s certainly a loose cannon. At one point he was arguing that having elected MEPs was the EU’s fatal flaw (preferring regular national MPs to be seconded to Brussels).
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 11,447

    Sean_F said:

    I think we can add 'nasty' to 'barking':

    At what point did Andrew Adonis go mad?
    Why does someone tweeting a cartoon suggest they're insane?
    ... have you seen his twitter recently??
    No I haven't. Presumably he isn't a slavish advocate of ultra Hard Brexit and his lips aren't firmly stapled to Theresa's buttocks. Therefore his mental health has to be questioned.
    Stark

    Andrew Adonis has gone from a run-of-the-mill Blairite to a an expert in everything. Last week education policy, the week before that archaeology - but most of all Brexit. He thinks everything is easy, thinks himself a genius and everyone else idiots. A giant among pygmies. It makes a mockery of any sensible attempt to advocate an anti-Brexit policy.
    He always did think he was an expert on education. That's how he got into government,

    He was considerably more deluded than Michael Gove on that point - at least Gove identified the problems correctly.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 32,522
    Truly terrible Liverpool display - every 4-5 games they go on a run where they look like they have forgotten how to play football. No energy, no ideas, no threat, even with all they have at their disposal. It's one of the signs of why Klopp is not a good manager - when they are not able to power forward, they have not a clue.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 19,090
    kle4 said:

    Truly terrible Liverpool display - every 4-5 games they go on a run where they look like they have forgotten how to play football. No energy, no ideas, no threat, even with all they have at their disposal. It's one of the signs of why Klopp is not a good manager - when they are not able to power forward, they have not a clue.

    But all will be forgiven if we come home from Kiev in three weeks’ time with Old Big Ears on the plane!
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 11,447
    Scott_P said:
    That's about as unconvincing as Corbyn's claim he didn't realise that mural was anti-Semitic.
  • Scrapheap_as_wasScrapheap_as_was Posts: 8,440
    kle4 said:

    Truly terrible Liverpool display - every 4-5 games they go on a run where they look like they have forgotten how to play football. No energy, no ideas, no threat, even with all they have at their disposal. It's one of the signs of why Klopp is not a good manager - when they are not able to power forward, they have not a clue.

    Chelsea were ALWAYS going to win today (another winning bet for me....) as the nightmare for Spurs gets ever more likely to happen.... I'm at Wembley on Weds to see the next step in this calamity and then Sunday too...
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