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    Scrapheap_as_wasScrapheap_as_was Posts: 10,059
    Seriously O/T -

    TSE may well like this but perhaps not to be listened to in the office... Fan Denial from Paddy Power re Stoke

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EQRczG9Q-v8


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    TheWhiteRabbitTheWhiteRabbit Posts: 12,387
    Scott_P said:

    No member state would deny the UK access to core EU programmes where its participation makes sense both in terms of financial contribution and expertise. This includes satellites and security.

    However the EU institutions are so minded to cut off Member States' nose to spite the UK's face.

    Why don't they let the US in on that basis?

    Ummm...
    Have the US ever applied to join Galileo?

    On security matters more generally, the US and EU have wide information sharing provisions as befits a state which (Donald Trump aside) is an important partner.
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    PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 75,899
    Scott_P said:
    We're in for Forest Gump Gov't ?

    'Run Boris run'.
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    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,937
    Nigelb said:

    GIN1138 said:

    Scott_P said:
    "Two Brains" (And No Sense) Willetts coming up with another cunning plan to hit Con voters?

    Any sign of Letwin's fingerprints on this one? :D
    Keep Willetts well away from making government policy, the man will hit the Tory vote.

    On radio 5 this morning, the idea went down like a bucket of sick and the last time I mentioned that was the tory manifesto for the last GE.
    The £10k dividend for 25 year-olds is a bloody stupid idea - untargeted/means tested, discriminating against those just a bit too old (but suffering from exactly the same plight), and liable to be blown by the feckless.
    Far better to invest a lot more than that is public housebuilding, which would better address much the same problem - and which at current borrowing rates could in any event be a profitable investment.

    One of his brains is an idiot.

    Should the older generation make a larger tax contribution to their care ?
    Probably.
    Agreed, a 25 year old with a £10 million trust fund who is an investment banker would get the dividend while an 80 year old on the state pension would not.

    Bursaries at universities for those who need them and more affordable houses being built and the over 65s still in work paying NI are far more effective ideas
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    CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758

    Was there any comment on this over the weekend? https://www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/news/fear-of-corbyn-prompts-tough-eu-line-on-brexit-lrcmwgvlx

    “The idea that Conservatives would legislate a race to the bottom is a myth and no one really believes it, even if some Tories have helped create it.

    “The real fear is state subsidies under a Jeremy Corbyn government.

    “British policy has remained unchanged for generations but now there is a real chance of a left-wing government reversing it. We have to protect ourselves and the single market.”

    Says more than they intended

    “Darn voters voted for something we don’t like. How can we make sure they don’t get it”
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    Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 55,262

    GIN1138 said:

    Scott_P said:
    "Two Brains" (And No Sense) Willetts coming up with another cunning plan to hit Con voters?

    Any sign of Letwin's fingerprints on this one? :D
    Keep Willetts well away from making government policy, the man will hit the Tory vote.

    On radio 5 this morning, the idea went down like a bucket of sick and the last time I mentioned that was the tory manifesto for the last GE.
    Forget the idea of rebaselining council tax, but the idea of giving under 25s £10k for a house deposit (possibly means tested) and for that alone isn't a bad one. I'd say the Government will match you pound for pound up to £10k of whatever you've saved by the age of 25.

    At the moment this happens anyway, but only from middle/ upper-middle class families. Giving the same to expand home ownership seems a sound strategic move for the Conservatives to me.
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    rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 58,152
    Pulpstar said:

    Scott_P said:
    We're in for Forest Gump Gov't ?

    'Run Boris run'.
    No. 10 is fully confident that Boris is in permanent leadership campaign role.
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    Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 49,200
    Pulpstar said:

    Scott_P said:
    We're in for Forest Gump Gov't ?

    'Run Boris run'.
    "I may be stupid, but I know what Brexit is!"
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    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,937
    Lewisham East was the 52nd safest Labour seat in the UK at the last general election so should be an easy Labour hold.

    More interesting will be if the Tories can keep 2nd place

    http://www.electoralcalculus.co.uk/orderedseats.html
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    rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 58,152
    HYUFD said:

    Nigelb said:

    GIN1138 said:

    Scott_P said:
    "Two Brains" (And No Sense) Willetts coming up with another cunning plan to hit Con voters?

    Any sign of Letwin's fingerprints on this one? :D
    Keep Willetts well away from making government policy, the man will hit the Tory vote.

    On radio 5 this morning, the idea went down like a bucket of sick and the last time I mentioned that was the tory manifesto for the last GE.
    The £10k dividend for 25 year-olds is a bloody stupid idea - untargeted/means tested, discriminating against those just a bit too old (but suffering from exactly the same plight), and liable to be blown by the feckless.
    Far better to invest a lot more than that is public housebuilding, which would better address much the same problem - and which at current borrowing rates could in any event be a profitable investment.

    One of his brains is an idiot.

    Should the older generation make a larger tax contribution to their care ?
    Probably.
    Agreed, a 25 year old with a £10 million trust fund who is an investment banker would get the dividend while an 80 year old on the state pension would not.

    Bursaries at universities for those who need them and more affordable houses being built and the over 65s still in work paying NI are far more effective ideas
    Didn't Osborne ditch Brown's gift to the young at age 18? Can't remember the exact name or details.
  • Options
    Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 55,262
    Nigelb said:

    GIN1138 said:

    Scott_P said:
    "Two Brains" (And No Sense) Willetts coming up with another cunning plan to hit Con voters?

    Any sign of Letwin's fingerprints on this one? :D
    Keep Willetts well away from making government policy, the man will hit the Tory vote.

    On radio 5 this morning, the idea went down like a bucket of sick and the last time I mentioned that was the tory manifesto for the last GE.
    The £10k dividend for 25 year-olds is a bloody stupid idea - untargeted/means tested, discriminating against those just a bit too old (but suffering from exactly the same plight), and liable to be blown by the feckless.
    Far better to invest a lot more than that is public housebuilding, which would better address much the same problem - and which at current borrowing rates could in any event be a profitable investment.

    One of his brains is an idiot.

    Should the older generation make a larger tax contribution to their care ?
    Probably.
    Another way of incentivising it could be to offer full IHT relief on the estate of any older person who gifts up to £20k, say, to a person aged under 30 for the purposes of buying their own home.

    In other words, carrot for intergenerational redistribution better than stick.
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    CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,152
    What a glorious day!

    Anyway for anyone who reads FS Focus, the magazine for Chartered Accountants (I know, I know, it's not Vogue or, indeed, PB - but you have to start somewhere) you will find a column by yours truly. Or you can apply to me in the usual way.

    (And not a word about Corbyn, I promise!!)

    Meanwhile I assume Brexit is still being cocked up in new and wonderful ways.......

    Ah well. Back to the sunshine.
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    Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    Surely Lewisham is Owen Jones moment...?
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    CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758

    If the Speaker's chair became empty, would Jacob Rees-Mogg go for it or would he hold out for advancement within the Conservative party? What does the brains trust think?

    Speaker. He doesn’t want to be a normal politician
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    Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    @faisalislam: The Mogg-Johnson “dream ticket” is how one Brexiter MP recently described the future... https://twitter.com/jacob_rees_mogg/status/993772241816051712
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    williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 48,011
    Extraordinary attack on Greg Clark from Nigel Lawson, calling him economically illiterate and saying that his judgement has been warped by being emotionally tied to the EU.
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    AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 30,340
    On Lewisham East, much depends on the candidate selected by Labour (for determining second place, at least). Since Lewisham Labour has been historically pragmatic, I'd have thought there would be more chance of an effective Green insurgent campaign against a non-Momentumite than a Lib Dem insurgent campaign against a Momentumite.

    But Labour should win by miles anyway.
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    QuincelQuincel Posts: 3,949
    Quincel said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Scott_P said:

    Sean_F said:

    I expect that this will be an easy Labour hold.

    Shadsy offering a 2% return if you can get on...

    https://twitter.com/LadPolitics/status/993806230345875456
    There's no value there with the possibility of internal splits. I'd want 1/10 at least at this stage. (1/50 might look very big soon enough).
    The interesting market will be the w/o Labour one.
    Lewisham council election (I know it also includes Lewisham West and Penge)

    Labour Party 60%
    The Conservative Party 14%
    Liberal Democrats 12%
    Green Party 12%
    For Lewisham East only it's:

    Lab - 50%
    Con - 17%
    Grn - 14%
    LD - 12.5%
    Kip - 4%
    Oth - 3%

    https://ufile.io/280eh

    (A spreadsheet with the last 3 cycles. Uses highest figure for each party as their vote share in each ward, due to multi-member wards.)
    Sorry, typo on the spreadsheet. Actually:


    Lab - 51%
    Con - 17%
    Grn - 15%
    LD - 13%
    Kip - 1%
    Oth - 3%

    https://ufile.io/4oe02
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    rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 58,152
    Charles said:

    If the Speaker's chair became empty, would Jacob Rees-Mogg go for it or would he hold out for advancement within the Conservative party? What does the brains trust think?

    Speaker. He doesn’t want to be a normal politician
    And he can dress up in 18th century clothes as Speaker.
  • Options
    rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 58,152
    Scott_P said:

    @faisalislam: The Mogg-Johnson “dream ticket” is how one Brexiter MP recently described the future... https://twitter.com/jacob_rees_mogg/status/993772241816051712

    I think that MP will find that that sounds like the dictionary definition of a 'nightmare'
  • Options
    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,937

    HYUFD said:

    Nigelb said:

    GIN1138 said:

    Scott_P said:
    "Two Brains" (And No Sense) Willetts coming up with another cunning plan to hit Con voters?

    Any sign of Letwin's fingerprints on this one? :D
    Keep Willetts well away from making government policy, the man will hit the Tory vote.

    On radio 5 this morning, the idea went down like a bucket of sick and the last time I mentioned that was the tory manifesto for the last GE.
    The £10k dividend for 25 year-olds is a bloody stupid idea - untargeted/means tested, discriminating against those just a bit too old (but suffering from exactly the same plight), and liable to be blown by the feckless.
    Far better to invest a lot more than that is public housebuilding, which would better address much the same problem - and which at current borrowing rates could in any event be a profitable investment.

    One of his brains is an idiot.

    Should the older generation make a larger tax contribution to their care ?
    Probably.
    Agreed, a 25 year old with a £10 million trust fund who is an investment banker would get the dividend while an 80 year old on the state pension would not.

    Bursaries at universities for those who need them and more affordable houses being built and the over 65s still in work paying NI are far more effective ideas
    Didn't Osborne ditch Brown's gift to the young at age 18? Can't remember the exact name or details.
    Sensibly so
  • Options
    Scrapheap_as_wasScrapheap_as_was Posts: 10,059

    Nigelb said:

    GIN1138 said:

    Scott_P said:
    "Two Brains" (And No Sense) Willetts coming up with another cunning plan to hit Con voters?

    Any sign of Letwin's fingerprints on this one? :D
    Keep Willetts well away from making government policy, the man will hit the Tory vote.

    On radio 5 this morning, the idea went down like a bucket of sick and the last time I mentioned that was the tory manifesto for the last GE.
    The £10k dividend for 25 year-olds is a bloody stupid idea - untargeted/means tested, discriminating against those just a bit too old (but suffering from exactly the same plight), and liable to be blown by the feckless.
    Far better to invest a lot more than that is public housebuilding, which would better address much the same problem - and which at current borrowing rates could in any event be a profitable investment.

    One of his brains is an idiot.

    Should the older generation make a larger tax contribution to their care ?
    Probably.
    Another way of incentivising it could be to offer full IHT relief on the estate of any older person who gifts up to £20k, say, to a person aged under 30 for the purposes of buying their own home.

    In other words, carrot for intergenerational redistribution better than stick.
    Like a PET but shorter than 7 years?
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    rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 58,152

    Extraordinary attack on Greg Clark from Nigel Lawson, calling him economically illiterate and saying that his judgement has been warped by being emotionally tied to the EU.

    Why doesn't Lawson just p*** off and stay in France.
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    QuincelQuincel Posts: 3,949
    edited May 2018
    HYUFD said:

    Lewisham East was the 52nd safest Labour seat in the UK at the last general election so should be an easy Labour hold.

    More interesting will be if the Tories can keep 2nd place

    http://www.electoralcalculus.co.uk/orderedseats.html

    Based on nothing other than them coming second in the locals and my gut being to bet against the hype - I suspect yes. Anyone want a straight up and down bet on evens on it? I'd go to £50.
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    kingbongokingbongo Posts: 393
    “Everyone has to pay NI. The country you retire in is responsible, I believe, for paying you the pension accrued in any EU member state you have previously worked in”

    Sorry Pulpstar this is just plain wrong - I will get my UK pension paid by the UK, it won’t be somehow converted to a Danish one- I contribute to,but will not receive, a Danish state pension unless I get citizenship and they change the rules on years of contributions (as likely as SeanT being elected Pope)
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    NorthofStokeNorthofStoke Posts: 1,758
    Could someone explain how a "customs partnership" arrangement limits our ability to negotiate trade deals? This argument doesn't make sense to me. The "customs partnership" approach seems to be an administrative arrangement to avoid friction in trade to EU and a hard border with Ireland. It doesn't restrict the terms of any trade between the UK and other countries outsied EU. Am I missing something?
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    tlg86tlg86 Posts: 25,187
    On housing, we already have the lifetime ISA. The government gave me £1,700 last week.
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    GIN1138GIN1138 Posts: 20,793
    edited May 2018
    Scott_P said:
    If anyone is fed up with the Brexit back and forth the governments Cabinet is the place to be to get away from it... :D

    #idontwannatalkaboutit
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    PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 75,899
    tlg86 said:

    On housing, we already have the lifetime ISA. The government gave me £1,700 last week.

    I need to sort out my lifetime ISA now I'm in the house I'm intending to live out my days in.
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    JonathanDJonathanD Posts: 2,400
    Nigelb said:

    GIN1138 said:

    Scott_P said:
    "Two Brains" (And No Sense) Willetts coming up with another cunning plan to hit Con voters?

    Any sign of Letwin's fingerprints on this one? :D
    Keep Willetts well away from making government policy, the man will hit the Tory vote.

    On radio 5 this morning, the idea went down like a bucket of sick and the last time I mentioned that was the tory manifesto for the last GE.
    The £10k dividend for 25 year-olds is a bloody stupid idea - untargeted/means tested, discriminating against those just a bit too old (but suffering from exactly the same plight), and liable to be blown by the feckless.

    From the report:

    "- Grants would sit in government-approved interest-bearing savings accounts, and could be spent at a time of their recipients’ choosing on any combination of four permitted uses: education and training (including paying off tuition fee debt), deposits for house rental or purchase, pension saving, or the start-up costs of new businesses being supported through recognised entrepreneurship schemes

    - During the transition period, to reflect the experience of cohorts who entered the labour market around the time of the 2007-08 financial crisis, the policy would pay smaller amounts to cohorts aged over 25.

    - The citizen’s inheritance would be funded primarily by ending the current inheritance tax system and replacing it with a new lifetime receipts tax,

    - Citizen’s inheritances would count as part of their recipients’ £125,000 lifetime receipts tax allowances, This would help ensure the policy is progressive, while bringing forward the timing of inheritances for those due to receive money later in life."


    https://www.resolutionfoundation.org/app/uploads/2018/05/The-new-wealth-of-our-nation.pdf
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    CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758
    Scott_P said:

    Charles said:

    It’s probably the best solution.

    No, it really probably isn't.

    Neither doctor gets to see the entire data set.

    That's almost guaranteed to lead to mistakes.
    What’s your experience in health imaging workflow?

    (The GP adds bugger all to this equation)
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    Richard_NabaviRichard_Nabavi Posts: 30,820
    edited May 2018

    Could someone explain how a "customs partnership" arrangement limits our ability to negotiate trade deals? This argument doesn't make sense to me. The "customs partnership" approach seems to be an administrative arrangement to avoid friction in trade to EU and a hard border with Ireland. It doesn't restrict the terms of any trade between the UK and other countries outsied EU. Am I missing something?

    The argument is that non-EU countries aren't likely to be keen on a trade deal if it involves the importer paying the full EU tariff at entry and potentially claiming back some difference between the EU and UK tariffs. Also in practice, regulatory divergence from the EU would be an enormous hassle.

    Boris is right - this is a bonkers scheme. There's a strong argument for a customs union on economic grounds (especially for the car manufacturing sector), but this mish-mash scheme offers little advantage over a customs union in terms of trade deals or freeing ourselves from EU regulation; it simply adds an enormously complicated administrative layer.

    Alternatively, if we don't want a customs union then we should go for Canada++ and accept the economic hit.
  • Options
    CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758
    Scott_P said:

    Charles said:

    And that is the fault of the EU.

    Bollocks.

    You Brexit, you broke it...
    Cutting out all of the context in s quote is a very unattractive habit.

    A security partnership makes sense for both sides. But it can’t just be one way. Galileo could - and should - be part of it
  • Options
    GIN1138GIN1138 Posts: 20,793
    edited May 2018
    Scott_P said:
    I think Davis and Fox will go too. Theresa May's government is about to collapse.
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    Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    Charles said:

    (The GP adds bugger all to this equation)

    Interacting with the patient "adds bugger all"...

    It's a view, I guess.
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    SlackbladderSlackbladder Posts: 9,704
    JonathanD said:

    Nigelb said:

    GIN1138 said:

    Scott_P said:
    "Two Brains" (And No Sense) Willetts coming up with another cunning plan to hit Con voters?

    Any sign of Letwin's fingerprints on this one? :D
    Keep Willetts well away from making government policy, the man will hit the Tory vote.

    On radio 5 this morning, the idea went down like a bucket of sick and the last time I mentioned that was the tory manifesto for the last GE.
    The £10k dividend for 25 year-olds is a bloody stupid idea - untargeted/means tested, discriminating against those just a bit too old (but suffering from exactly the same plight), and liable to be blown by the feckless.

    From the report:

    "- Grants would sit in government-approved interest-bearing savings accounts, and could be spent at a time of their recipients’ choosing on any combination of four permitted uses: education and training (including paying off tuition fee debt), deposits for house rental or purchase, pension saving, or the start-up costs of new businesses being supported through recognised entrepreneurship schemes

    https://www.resolutionfoundation.org/app/uploads/2018/05/The-new-wealth-of-our-nation.pdf
    Sounds hugely expensive to admin.
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    CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758
    glw said:

    Charles said:

    Scott_P said:

    Ian Dunt - @IanDunt: You couldn't ask for a more perfect encapsulation of the pointlessness of Brexit than ham-faced cretin Gavin Williamson saying we should build our own Galileo system.

    Ian Dunt - @IanDunt: He wants to spend countless millions replicating a project we are already invested in. He calls it... you guessed it... "rediscovering our bulldog spirit".

    And that is the fault of the EU.

    More seriously, this kind of cooperation makes perfect sense. It was the political stuff that didn’t work for the U.K.
    There is no real need for Galileo at all, it's a white elephant.

    Commercially GPS as-is works well enough for most uses, and it's not a fixed system, there is a whole series of upgrades in deployment which will satisfy many other applications.

    Further into the future there will be so many satellites in LEO that dedicated systems for navigation will be functionally redundant for most common uses.
    On a security level being entirely dependent on the goodwill of the US appears shortsighted
  • Options
    CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,152
    Wonderful interview with Dominic Grieve.

    Boris is an arse. I am sick of his shenanigans. I don't know who is right on the Customs Union but Boris is doing what is best for his career not what is best for the country. If the Tories are stupid enough to put him in power they deserve to be slaughtered.
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    JonathanDJonathanD Posts: 2,400

    JonathanD said:

    Nigelb said:

    GIN1138 said:

    Scott_P said:
    "Two Brains" (And No Sense) Willetts coming up with another cunning plan to hit Con voters?

    Any sign of Letwin's fingerprints on this one? :D
    Keep Willetts well away from making government policy, the man will hit the Tory vote.

    On radio 5 this morning, the idea went down like a bucket of sick and the last time I mentioned that was the tory manifesto for the last GE.
    The £10k dividend for 25 year-olds is a bloody stupid idea - untargeted/means tested, discriminating against those just a bit too old (but suffering from exactly the same plight), and liable to be blown by the feckless.

    From the report:

    "- Grants would sit in government-approved interest-bearing savings accounts, and could be spent at a time of their recipients’ choosing on any combination of four permitted uses: education and training (including paying off tuition fee debt), deposits for house rental or purchase, pension saving, or the start-up costs of new businesses being supported through recognised entrepreneurship schemes

    https://www.resolutionfoundation.org/app/uploads/2018/05/The-new-wealth-of-our-nation.pdf
    Sounds hugely expensive to admin.
    Probably not much more so than the current Lifetime ISAs.
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    CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758
    tlg86 said:

    On housing, we already have the lifetime ISA. The government gave me £1,700 last week.

    Other taxpayers you mean...
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    Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    Cyclefree said:

    Boris is doing what is best for his career not what is best for the country.

    He thought that was what he was doing at the referendum, and was Royally screwed by winning....
  • Options
    Dura_AceDura_Ace Posts: 12,977
    Charles said:



    On a security level being entirely dependent on the goodwill of the US appears shortsighted

    The US can and do degrade GPS in certain areas when it suits them. It's currently degraded over Afghanistan.
  • Options
    NigelbNigelb Posts: 62,337
    JonathanD said:

    Nigelb said:

    GIN1138 said:

    Scott_P said:
    "Two Brains" (And No Sense) Willetts coming up with another cunning plan to hit Con voters?

    Any sign of Letwin's fingerprints on this one? :D
    Keep Willetts well away from making government policy, the man will hit the Tory vote.

    On radio 5 this morning, the idea went down like a bucket of sick and the last time I mentioned that was the tory manifesto for the last GE.
    The £10k dividend for 25 year-olds is a bloody stupid idea - untargeted/means tested, discriminating against those just a bit too old (but suffering from exactly the same plight), and liable to be blown by the feckless.

    From the report:

    "- Grants would sit in government-approved interest-bearing savings accounts, and could be spent at a time of their recipients’ choosing on any combination of four permitted uses: education and training (including paying off tuition fee debt), deposits for house rental or purchase, pension saving, or the start-up costs of new businesses being supported through recognised entrepreneurship schemes

    - During the transition period, to reflect the experience of cohorts who entered the labour market around the time of the 2007-08 financial crisis, the policy would pay smaller amounts to cohorts aged over 25.

    - The citizen’s inheritance would be funded primarily by ending the current inheritance tax system and replacing it with a new lifetime receipts tax,

    - Citizen’s inheritances would count as part of their recipients’ £125,000 lifetime receipts tax allowances, This would help ensure the policy is progressive, while bringing forward the timing of inheritances for those due to receive money later in life."


    https://www.resolutionfoundation.org/app/uploads/2018/05/The-new-wealth-of-our-nation.pdf
    So his second brain used the small print to make an idiotic policy slightly less idiotic...
  • Options
    williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 48,011
    Charles said:

    Scott_P said:

    Charles said:

    And that is the fault of the EU.

    Bollocks.

    You Brexit, you broke it...
    Cutting out all of the context in s quote is a very unattractive habit.

    A security partnership makes sense for both sides. But it can’t just be one way. Galileo could - and should - be part of it
    Wanting political cooperation without politics is incoherent. It's almost like your preferred Brexit would be to become sui juris common law members of the EU without signing any pesky treaties.
  • Options
    PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 75,899
    On the question of "receipts", would the income for a sale of shares at a theoretical ex rights price to be held on one's father's behalf count ?
  • Options
    BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 31,560
    JonathanD said:

    Nigelb said:

    GIN1138 said:

    Scott_P said:
    "Two Brains" (And No Sense) Willetts coming up with another cunning plan to hit Con voters?

    Any sign of Letwin's fingerprints on this one? :D
    Keep Willetts well away from making government policy, the man will hit the Tory vote.

    On radio 5 this morning, the idea went down like a bucket of sick and the last time I mentioned that was the tory manifesto for the last GE.
    The £10k dividend for 25 year-olds is a bloody stupid idea - untargeted/means tested, discriminating against those just a bit too old (but suffering from exactly the same plight), and liable to be blown by the feckless.

    From the report:

    "- Grants would sit in government-approved interest-bearing savings accounts, and could be spent at a time of their recipients’ choosing on any combination of four permitted uses: education and training (including paying off tuition fee debt), deposits for house rental or purchase, pension saving, or the start-up costs of new businesses being supported through recognised entrepreneurship schemes

    - During the transition period, to reflect the experience of cohorts who entered the labour market around the time of the 2007-08 financial crisis, the policy would pay smaller amounts to cohorts aged over 25.

    - The citizen’s inheritance would be funded primarily by ending the current inheritance tax system and replacing it with a new lifetime receipts tax,

    - Citizen’s inheritances would count as part of their recipients’ £125,000 lifetime receipts tax allowances, This would help ensure the policy is progressive, while bringing forward the timing of inheritances for those due to receive money later in life."


    https://www.resolutionfoundation.org/app/uploads/2018/05/The-new-wealth-of-our-nation.pdf
    Surely better to tackle some of the fundamentals causing the generational imbalance than try to put a sticking plaster over it... E.g. remove the triple-lock, tackle housing costs (relax planning, allow/require local authorities to invest in housing), shift from taxing income and spend to taxing wealth.
  • Options
    Stark_DawningStark_Dawning Posts: 9,287
    Something's got to give with Boris. Possibilities:

    1) Theresa withdraws the Customs Partnership and Boris claims victory. (I can't see that happening - not Theresa's style.)

    2) Customs Partnership stays and Boris resigns in a fit of pique.

    3) Customs Partnership stays but with 'amendments' addressing 'Boris's concerns'. (i.e. it isn't amended at all but Boris can claim some kind of victory without quitting.)

    I think 3 is most likely.
  • Options
    CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758
    Scott_P said:

    Charles said:

    (The GP adds bugger all to this equation)

    Interacting with the patient "adds bugger all"...

    It's a view, I guess.
    The consultant can review 15 X-rays in a hour and still have time for a fag and a cup of coffee

    The GP can see 6.

    For the examination of imaging data the specialist’s time is better used reviewing X-rays not interacting with patients

    The GP doesn’t have the expertise to add to the imaging assessment so there is no benefit - but a cost and a risk - to sending him the images
  • Options
    SlackbladderSlackbladder Posts: 9,704
    Cyclefree said:

    Wonderful interview with Dominic Grieve.

    Boris is an arse. I am sick of his shenanigans. I don't know who is right on the Customs Union but Boris is doing what is best for his career not what is best for the country. If the Tories are stupid enough to put him in power they deserve to be slaughtered.

    He won't be in power much at all if he can't get the vote through Parliment, which he would probably struggle to do.
  • Options
    NorthofStokeNorthofStoke Posts: 1,758

    Could someone explain how a "customs partnership" arrangement limits our ability to negotiate trade deals? This argument doesn't make sense to me. The "customs partnership" approach seems to be an administrative arrangement to avoid friction in trade to EU and a hard border with Ireland. It doesn't restrict the terms of any trade between the UK and other countries outsied EU. Am I missing something?

    The argument is that non-EU countries aren't likely to be keen on a trade deal if it involves the importer paying the full EU tariff at entry and potentially claiming back some difference between the EU and UK tariffs. Also in practice, regulatory divergence from the EU would be an enormous hassle.

    Boris is right - this is a bonkers scheme. There's a strong argument for a customs union on economic grounds (especially for the car manufacturing sector), but this mish-mash scheme offers little advantage over a customs union in terms of trade deals of freeing ourselves from EU regulation; it simply adds an enormously complicated administrative layer.

    Alternatively, if we don't want a customs union then we should go for Canada++ and accept the economic hit.
    I don't think it would necessarily add to the existing admin overhead: https://www.gov.uk/guidance/importing-goods-from-outside-the-eu if sensible mechanisms were developed. There are already schemes for deferred payments and so on that could be enhanced.
  • Options
    williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 48,011

    3) Customs Partnership stays but with 'amendments' addressing 'Boris's concerns'. (i.e. it isn't amended at all but Boris can claim some kind of victory without quitting.)

    I think 3 is most likely.

    'Partnership' sounds a bit too much like mutual responsibility. To placate Boris it should be renamed as something dynamic and buccaneering. How about a customs 'initiative', or a customs 'innovation scheme'?
  • Options
    GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 20,845
    GIN1138 said:

    Scott_P said:
    I think Davis and Fox will go too. Theresa May's government is about to collapse.
    No-one is going anywhere.*
    May will simply push this conversation down the road again. If there’s one thing we know it’s that this government is committed to self preservation above principle - or the good of the country - above all.

    *Having said that I said something similar about 8 hours before Amber Rudd resigned.
  • Options
    Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    Charles said:

    The GP doesn’t have the expertise to add to the imaging assessment so there is no benefit

    The person qualified to diagnose the need for, and request, the image, is not qualified, in your view, to see the image...

    The person qualified to see the image, in your view, doesn't need to verify the request.

    I don't think that is a good way of working.
  • Options
    geoffwgeoffw Posts: 8,134

    Could someone explain how a "customs partnership" arrangement limits our ability to negotiate trade deals? This argument doesn't make sense to me. The "customs partnership" approach seems to be an administrative arrangement to avoid friction in trade to EU and a hard border with Ireland. It doesn't restrict the terms of any trade between the UK and other countries outsied EU. Am I missing something?

    The argument is that non-EU countries aren't likely to be keen on a trade deal if it involves the importer paying the full EU tariff at entry and potentially claiming back some difference between the EU and UK tariffs. Also in practice, regulatory divergence from the EU would be an enormous hassle.

    Boris is right - this is a bonkers scheme. There's a strong argument for a customs union on economic grounds (especially for the car manufacturing sector), but this mish-mash scheme offers little advantage over a customs union in terms of trade deals or freeing ourselves from EU regulation; it simply adds an enormously complicated administrative layer.

    Alternatively, if we don't want a customs union then we should go for Canada++ and accept the economic hit.
    Thank God for sanity from Boris.

    By the way Patrick Minford also supports Canada+.
  • Options
    CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 59,572
    Charles said:

    Scott_P said:

    Charles said:

    And that is the fault of the EU.

    Bollocks.

    You Brexit, you broke it...
    Cutting out all of the context in s quote is a very unattractive habit.

    A security partnership makes sense for both sides. But it can’t just be one way. Galileo could - and should - be part of it
    Even the FT thinks the EU has got Galileo wrong....
  • Options
    Scrapheap_as_wasScrapheap_as_was Posts: 10,059
    Cyclefree said:

    Wonderful interview with Dominic Grieve.

    Boris is an arse. I am sick of his shenanigans. I don't know who is right on the Customs Union but Boris is doing what is best for his career not what is best for the country. If the Tories are stupid enough to put him in power they deserve to be slaughtered.

    I entirely agree...... there was also that crass tweet after the local elections too which was as unsubtle as it gets.

    Part of my ongoing tory membership is to at least have a vote against Boris and other headbangers when the time comes - sort of SO tactics but re the blue team.
  • Options
    williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 48,011
    geoffw said:

    Could someone explain how a "customs partnership" arrangement limits our ability to negotiate trade deals? This argument doesn't make sense to me. The "customs partnership" approach seems to be an administrative arrangement to avoid friction in trade to EU and a hard border with Ireland. It doesn't restrict the terms of any trade between the UK and other countries outsied EU. Am I missing something?

    The argument is that non-EU countries aren't likely to be keen on a trade deal if it involves the importer paying the full EU tariff at entry and potentially claiming back some difference between the EU and UK tariffs. Also in practice, regulatory divergence from the EU would be an enormous hassle.

    Boris is right - this is a bonkers scheme. There's a strong argument for a customs union on economic grounds (especially for the car manufacturing sector), but this mish-mash scheme offers little advantage over a customs union in terms of trade deals or freeing ourselves from EU regulation; it simply adds an enormously complicated administrative layer.

    Alternatively, if we don't want a customs union then we should go for Canada++ and accept the economic hit.
    Thank God for sanity from Boris.

    By the way Patrick Minford also supports Canada+.
    Patrick Minford thought the Irish border wasn't a problem because they already have passport checks there...
  • Options
    tlg86tlg86 Posts: 25,187
    Charles said:

    tlg86 said:

    On housing, we already have the lifetime ISA. The government gave me £1,700 last week.

    Other taxpayers you mean...
    :)
  • Options
    MarkHopkinsMarkHopkins Posts: 5,584

    So far from May we have had:

    * Granny Tax (2017 GE)

    * Porn Registration

    * Hostile Environment (immigration)

    * Customs Partnership

    and in each case she cannot see the bad consequences of the plan, she just thinks it's a good wheeze.

    Very disappointing from a Conservative PM.

  • Options
    SlackbladderSlackbladder Posts: 9,704

    GIN1138 said:

    Scott_P said:
    I think Davis and Fox will go too. Theresa May's government is about to collapse.
    No-one is going anywhere.*
    May will simply push this conversation down the road again. If there’s one thing we know it’s that this government is committed to self preservation above principle - or the good of the country - above all.

    *Having said that I said something similar about 8 hours before Amber Rudd resigned.
    To be fair, she is having to do a very very tricky balancing act. There might 'not' be a solution to in or out of the customs union either way.
  • Options
    Richard_TyndallRichard_Tyndall Posts: 30,918

    JonathanD said:

    Nigelb said:

    GIN1138 said:

    Scott_P said:
    "Two Brains" (And No Sense) Willetts coming up with another cunning plan to hit Con voters?

    Any sign of Letwin's fingerprints on this one? :D
    Keep Willetts well away from making government policy, the man will hit the Tory vote.

    On radio 5 this morning, the idea went down like a bucket of sick and the last time I mentioned that was the tory manifesto for the last GE.
    The £10k dividend for 25 year-olds is a bloody stupid idea - untargeted/means tested, discriminating against those just a bit too old (but suffering from exactly the same plight), and liable to be blown by the feckless.

    From the report:

    "- Grants would sit in government-approved interest-bearing savings accounts, and could be spent at a time of their recipients’ choosing on any combination of four permitted uses: education and training (including paying off tuition fee debt), deposits for house rental or purchase, pension saving, or the start-up costs of new businesses being supported through recognised entrepreneurship schemes

    - During the transition period, to reflect the experience of cohorts who entered the labour market around the time of the 2007-08 financial crisis, the policy would pay smaller amounts to cohorts aged over 25.

    - The citizen’s inheritance would be funded primarily by ending the current inheritance tax system and replacing it with a new lifetime receipts tax,

    - Citizen’s inheritances would count as part of their recipients’ £125,000 lifetime receipts tax allowances, This would help ensure the policy is progressive, while bringing forward the timing of inheritances for those due to receive money later in life."


    https://www.resolutionfoundation.org/app/uploads/2018/05/The-new-wealth-of-our-nation.pdf
    Surely better to tackle some of the fundamentals causing the generational imbalance than try to put a sticking plaster over it... E.g. remove the triple-lock, tackle housing costs (relax planning, allow/require local authorities to invest in housing), shift from taxing income and spend to taxing wealth.
    It is a complete myth that the current planning system prevents house building. The system has already been radically reformed and eased in favour of the developer (overly so as far as protection of the environment or archaeology is concerned). The main areas of planning that developers object to now are the requirement to fund amenities and services as part of their developments. They want to be able to build where they like and then walk away leaving estates with no schools, sports or social facilities.
  • Options
    geoffwgeoffw Posts: 8,134

    geoffw said:

    Could someone explain how a "customs partnership" arrangement limits our ability to negotiate trade deals? This argument doesn't make sense to me. The "customs partnership" approach seems to be an administrative arrangement to avoid friction in trade to EU and a hard border with Ireland. It doesn't restrict the terms of any trade between the UK and other countries outsied EU. Am I missing something?

    The argument is that non-EU countries aren't likely to be keen on a trade deal if it involves the importer paying the full EU tariff at entry and potentially claiming back some difference between the EU and UK tariffs. Also in practice, regulatory divergence from the EU would be an enormous hassle.

    Boris is right - this is a bonkers scheme. There's a strong argument for a customs union on economic grounds (especially for the car manufacturing sector), but this mish-mash scheme offers little advantage over a customs union in terms of trade deals or freeing ourselves from EU regulation; it simply adds an enormously complicated administrative layer.

    Alternatively, if we don't want a customs union then we should go for Canada++ and accept the economic hit.
    Thank God for sanity from Boris.

    By the way Patrick Minford also supports Canada+.
    Patrick Minford thought the Irish border wasn't a problem because they already have passport checks there...
    The Irish border is a problem of the EU's making. It is a device to twist the "negotiations" in Brussel's favour. It also reveals Brussel's hostile attitude.
  • Options
    williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 48,011
    geoffw said:

    geoffw said:

    Could someone explain how a "customs partnership" arrangement limits our ability to negotiate trade deals? This argument doesn't make sense to me. The "customs partnership" approach seems to be an administrative arrangement to avoid friction in trade to EU and a hard border with Ireland. It doesn't restrict the terms of any trade between the UK and other countries outsied EU. Am I missing something?

    The argument is that non-EU countries aren't likely to be keen on a trade deal if it involves the importer paying the full EU tariff at entry and potentially claiming back some difference between the EU and UK tariffs. Also in practice, regulatory divergence from the EU would be an enormous hassle.

    Boris is right - this is a bonkers scheme. There's a strong argument for a customs union on economic grounds (especially for the car manufacturing sector), but this mish-mash scheme offers little advantage over a customs union in terms of trade deals or freeing ourselves from EU regulation; it simply adds an enormously complicated administrative layer.

    Alternatively, if we don't want a customs union then we should go for Canada++ and accept the economic hit.
    Thank God for sanity from Boris.

    By the way Patrick Minford also supports Canada+.
    Patrick Minford thought the Irish border wasn't a problem because they already have passport checks there...
    The Irish border is a problem of the EU's making. It is a device to twist the "negotiations" in Brussel's favour. It also reveals Brussel's hostile attitude.
    I don't think Patrick Minford's ignorance can be blamed on the EU.
  • Options
    GIN1138GIN1138 Posts: 20,793
    edited May 2018


    So far from May we have had:

    * Granny Tax (2017 GE)

    * Porn Registration

    * Hostile Environment (immigration)

    * Customs Partnership

    and in each case she cannot see the bad consequences of the plan, she just thinks it's a good wheeze.

    Very disappointing from a Conservative PM.

    Now you know I'm not Theresa's biggest fan but Cameron has to take his fair share of the responsibility for Hostile Environment and Porn Registration - As both policies were developed and in the case of the hostile environment, implemented, under his government.
  • Options
    Richard_TyndallRichard_Tyndall Posts: 30,918

    Could someone explain how a "customs partnership" arrangement limits our ability to negotiate trade deals? This argument doesn't make sense to me. The "customs partnership" approach seems to be an administrative arrangement to avoid friction in trade to EU and a hard border with Ireland. It doesn't restrict the terms of any trade between the UK and other countries outsied EU. Am I missing something?

    It depends on what exactly it means.


    If it is effectively a Customs Union along the lines of the Turkish deal, it is rubbish because it allows third party countries who have an FTA with the EU to export into your country tariff free via the Single Market whilst you do not share reciprocal rights to export to them.


    If it is the Customs Arrangement as outlined by May then that is not the case and it seems the only valid objection (shared by the EU and the Eurosceptics) is that it is complex and unworkable.


    But whatever the case, one thing is certain is that it will not solve the Irish Border issue since that will still be affected by not being in the Single Market. It is a complete red herring to say sorting out the customs arrangements will solve the border issue.
  • Options
    TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 41,209
    geoffw said:

    geoffw said:

    Could someone explain how a "customs partnership" arrangement limits our ability to negotiate trade deals? This argument doesn't make sense to me. The "customs partnership" approach seems to be an administrative arrangement to avoid friction in trade to EU and a hard border with Ireland. It doesn't restrict the terms of any trade between the UK and other countries outsied EU. Am I missing something?

    The argument is that non-EU countries aren't likely to be keen on a trade deal if it involves the importer paying the full EU tariff at entry and potentially claiming back some difference between the EU and UK tariffs. Also in practice, regulatory divergence from the EU would be an enormous hassle.

    Boris is right - this is a bonkers scheme. There's a strong argument for a customs union on economic grounds (especially for the car manufacturing sector), but this mish-mash scheme offers little advantage over a customs union in terms of trade deals or freeing ourselves from EU regulation; it simply adds an enormously complicated administrative layer.

    Alternatively, if we don't want a customs union then we should go for Canada++ and accept the economic hit.
    Thank God for sanity from Boris.

    By the way Patrick Minford also supports Canada+.
    Patrick Minford thought the Irish border wasn't a problem because they already have passport checks there...
    The Irish border is a problem of the EU's making. It is a device to twist the "negotiations" in Brussel's favour. It also reveals Brussel's hostile attitude.
    Missing several hundred years context of Irish history. Did you really mean your vote to re-animate one of the most poisonous conflicts of recent and not so recent years right on our doorstep?

    Ireland, as a member, can expect support from the EU. Who'd a thought it?

    No one in their right minds, except perhaps you, wants to fuck with the situation as it exists in Ireland/NI post GFA.
  • Options
    NemtynakhtNemtynakht Posts: 2,311



    Surely better to tackle some of the fundamentals causing the generational imbalance than try to put a sticking plaster over it... E.g. remove the triple-lock, tackle housing costs (relax planning, allow/require local authorities to invest in housing), shift from taxing income and spend to taxing wealth.

    It is a complete myth that the current planning system prevents house building. The system has already been radically reformed and eased in favour of the developer (overly so as far as protection of the environment or archaeology is concerned). The main areas of planning that developers object to now are the requirement to fund amenities and services as part of their developments. They want to be able to build where they like and then walk away leaving estates with no schools, sports or social facilities.

    Having spoken to a previous senior executive for a house builder about this, their opinion was that there should be a development land tax, as the land value is where the huge unearned gain comes from. A house builder has significant risks in deploying capital in the development process, but a land owner can have a huge windfall just by getting planning approval for their farmland. This benefits those who are significant land owners who have time and money to push to move their land into development plans, and not the small scale farmers, most of whom just want to carry on farming
  • Options
    MarkHopkinsMarkHopkins Posts: 5,584
    GIN1138 said:


    So far from May we have had:

    * Granny Tax (2017 GE)

    * Porn Registration

    * Hostile Environment (immigration)

    * Customs Partnership

    and in each case she cannot see the bad consequences of the plan, she just thinks it's a good wheeze.

    Very disappointing from a Conservative PM.

    Now you know I'm not Theresa's biggest fan but Cameron has to take his fair share of the responsibility for Hostile Environment and Porn Registration - As both policies were developed and in the case of the hostile environment, implemented, under his government.

    Yes, but as Home Secretary TMay was responsible for developing and delivering them.

  • Options
    AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 23,754
    TOPPING said:

    geoffw said:

    geoffw said:

    Could someone explain how a "customs partnership" arrangement limits our ability to negotiate trade deals? This argument doesn't make sense to me. The "customs partnership" approach seems to be an administrative arrangement to avoid friction in trade to EU and a hard border with Ireland. It doesn't restrict the terms of any trade between the UK and other countries outsied EU. Am I missing something?

    The argument is that non-EU countries aren't likely to be keen on a trade deal if it involves the importer paying the full EU tariff at entry and potentially claiming back some difference between the EU and UK tariffs. Also in practice, regulatory divergence from the EU would be an enormous hassle.

    Boris is right - this is a bonkers scheme. There's a strong argument for a customs union on economic grounds (especially for the car manufacturing sector), but this mish-mash scheme offers little advantage over a customs union in terms of trade deals or freeing ourselves from EU regulation; it simply adds an enormously complicated administrative layer.

    Alternatively, if we don't want a customs union then we should go for Canada++ and accept the economic hit.
    Thank God for sanity from Boris.

    By the way Patrick Minford also supports Canada+.
    Patrick Minford thought the Irish border wasn't a problem because they already have passport checks there...
    The Irish border is a problem of the EU's making. It is a device to twist the "negotiations" in Brussel's favour. It also reveals Brussel's hostile attitude.
    Missing several hundred years context of Irish history. Did you really mean your vote to re-animate one of the most poisonous conflicts of recent and not so recent years right on our doorstep?

    Ireland, as a member, can expect support from the EU. Who'd a thought it?

    No one in their right minds, except perhaps you, wants to fuck with the situation as it exists in Ireland/NI post GFA.
    I think you'll find Leo Varadkar does and at some point it'll come back and bite him on the arse
  • Options
    AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 30,340
    I spent the weekend in Portstewart, from which you can easily see Donegal. On a clear day, you can also just make out Islay.

    In the past, these three locations were all part of a single state. Now they are in two sovereign states. You could easily imagine circumstances where they are in three sovereign states in the not-too-distant future. Or two, differently configured.

    It does make you reflect on the arbitrariness of borders.
  • Options
    williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 48,011
    Thread from the Telegraph's Peter Foster.
    https://twitter.com/pmdfoster/status/993808619295690756
  • Options
    PClippPClipp Posts: 2,138

    Surely better to tackle some of the fundamentals causing the generational imbalance than try to put a sticking plaster over it... E.g. remove the triple-lock, tackle housing costs (relax planning, allow/require local authorities to invest in housing), shift from taxing income and spend to taxing wealth.

    It is a complete myth that the current planning system prevents house building. The system has already been radically reformed and eased in favour of the developer (overly so as far as protection of the environment or archaeology is concerned). The main areas of planning that developers object to now are the requirement to fund amenities and services as part of their developments. They want to be able to build where they like and then walk away leaving estates with no schools, sports or social facilities.
    Spot on, Mr Tyndall. It is greedy Tories wanting even less involvement from the public over what happens to their area.

    And I agree with most of your points too, Mr Pointer. How about dealing with family trusts and the tax breaks they give to the very wealthy? Would it not be a god idea to tax their gains on the basis of the income tax level of the beneficiaries? That would surely bring in many millions.
  • Options
    CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758
    Dura_Ace said:

    Charles said:



    On a security level being entirely dependent on the goodwill of the US appears shortsighted

    The US can and do degrade GPS in certain areas when it suits them. It's currently degraded over Afghanistan.
    Yes. I don’t know enough about the details to know why it would be a problem but I am always wary of dependence on a single source you don’t control
  • Options
    AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 23,754

    I spent the weekend in Portstewart, from which you can easily see Donegal. On a clear day, you can also just make out Islay.

    In the past, these three locations were all part of a single state. Now they are in two sovereign states. You could easily imagine circumstances where they are in three sovereign states in the not-too-distant future. Or two, differently configured.

    It does make you reflect on the arbitrariness of borders.

    were you marching at the weekend ?
  • Options
    felixfelix Posts: 15,124
    Scott_P said:

    Surely Lewisham is Owen Jones moment...?

    Would be funny if he cocked this one up as well as all the councils they didn't win in London.
  • Options
    CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758

    Charles said:

    Scott_P said:

    Charles said:

    And that is the fault of the EU.

    Bollocks.

    You Brexit, you broke it...
    Cutting out all of the context in s quote is a very unattractive habit.

    A security partnership makes sense for both sides. But it can’t just be one way. Galileo could - and should - be part of it
    Wanting political cooperation without politics is incoherent. It's almost like your preferred Brexit would be to become sui juris common law members of the EU without signing any pesky treaties.
    No. You can have partnership on specific items.

    It was QMV and the political direction of travel that was an issue for me.
  • Options
    DecrepitJohnLDecrepitJohnL Posts: 13,300


    So far from May we have had:

    * Granny Tax (2017 GE)

    * Porn Registration

    * Hostile Environment (immigration)

    * Customs Partnership

    and in each case she cannot see the bad consequences of the plan, she just thinks it's a good wheeze.

    Very disappointing from a Conservative PM.

    It is not just that Theresa May cannot see any down side -- after all, nor could George Osborne which is why we got the omnishambles budget full of eminently sensible measures put up by the Treasury that he and the Cameroons did not realise targeted Conservative supporters. The real problem is that the Prime Minister has not taken steps to mitigate this weakness by appointing a Whitelaw-type figure as devil's advocate, or is that what the cabinet is for?
  • Options
    Richard_TyndallRichard_Tyndall Posts: 30,918
    edited May 2018



    It is a complete myth that the current planning system prevents house building. The system has already been radically reformed and eased in favour of the developer (overly so as far as protection of the environment or archaeology is concerned). The main areas of planning that developers object to now are the requirement to fund amenities and services as part of their developments. They want to be able to build where they like and then walk away leaving estates with no schools, sports or social facilities.

    Having spoken to a previous senior executive for a house builder about this, their opinion was that there should be a development land tax, as the land value is where the huge unearned gain comes from. A house builder has significant risks in deploying capital in the development process, but a land owner can have a huge windfall just by getting planning approval for their farmland. This benefits those who are significant land owners who have time and money to push to move their land into development plans, and not the small scale farmers, most of whom just want to carry on farming
    That again seems a bit of a red herring as the landowner would pay capital gains tax on the sale of the land to the developer at 28%. And if they have a profits option on the sale and subsequent development they would pay 45% on any further monies coming back at the end of the development.
  • Options
    BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 31,560
    edited May 2018

    JonathanD said:

    Nigelb said:


    From the report:

    "- Grants would sit in government-approved interest-bearing savings accounts, and could be spent at a time of their recipients’ choosing on any combination of four permitted uses: education and training (including paying off tuition fee debt), deposits for house rental or purchase, pension saving, or the start-up costs of new businesses being supported through recognised entrepreneurship schemes

    - During the transition period, to reflect the experience of cohorts who entered the labour market around the time of the 2007-08 financial crisis, the policy would pay smaller amounts to cohorts aged over 25.

    - The citizen’s inheritance would be funded primarily by ending the current inheritance tax system and replacing it with a new lifetime receipts tax,

    - Citizen’s inheritances would count as part of their recipients’ £125,000 lifetime receipts tax allowances, This would help ensure the policy is progressive, while bringing forward the timing of inheritances for those due to receive money later in life."


    https://www.resolutionfoundation.org/app/uploads/2018/05/The-new-wealth-of-our-nation.pdf
    Surely better to tackle some of the fundamentals causing the generational imbalance than try to put a sticking plaster over it... E.g. remove the triple-lock, tackle housing costs (relax planning, allow/require local authorities to invest in housing), shift from taxing income and spend to taxing wealth.
    It is a complete myth that the current planning system prevents house building. The system has already been radically reformed and eased in favour of the developer (overly so as far as protection of the environment or archaeology is concerned). The main areas of planning that developers object to now are the requirement to fund amenities and services as part of their developments. They want to be able to build where they like and then walk away leaving estates with no schools, sports or social facilities.
    Hahaha. Try applying for permission to build on the edge of a village!
  • Options
    AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 30,340

    I spent the weekend in Portstewart, from which you can easily see Donegal. On a clear day, you can also just make out Islay.

    In the past, these three locations were all part of a single state. Now they are in two sovereign states. You could easily imagine circumstances where they are in three sovereign states in the not-too-distant future. Or two, differently configured.

    It does make you reflect on the arbitrariness of borders.

    were you marching at the weekend ?
    You're so 20th century. It's all about the gay cakes:

    https://twitter.com/AlastairMeeks/status/991244588496146434
  • Options
    CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758
    Scott_P said:

    Charles said:

    The GP doesn’t have the expertise to add to the imaging assessment so there is no benefit

    The person qualified to diagnose the need for, and request, the image, is not qualified, in your view, to see the image...

    The person qualified to see the image, in your view, doesn't need to verify the request.

    I don't think that is a good way of working.
    Yes. They are different skills for different purposes.

    The GP is identifying it’s possibly more than a simple sprain. The imaging expert takes that on trust and reviews the image. The GP could spend time looking at the images but won’t change the answer so it’s not efficient

    Specialisation of labour is abasic concept
  • Options
    MarkHopkinsMarkHopkins Posts: 5,584

    I spent the weekend in Portstewart, from which you can easily see Donegal. On a clear day, you can also just make out Islay.

    In the past, these three locations were all part of a single state. Now they are in two sovereign states. You could easily imagine circumstances where they are in three sovereign states in the not-too-distant future. Or two, differently configured.

    It does make you reflect on the arbitrariness of borders.


    Yesterday I was in my garden, and I could see a garden next door on one side, and a garden on the other side too.

    In the past, these three locations were all part of the same field, and prior to that the same forest.

    You could easily imagine circumstances where someone builds an apartment building in the future and they are all covered by it.

    It does make you reflect on the arbitrariness of property boundaries.

    :smile:
  • Options
    Richard_TyndallRichard_Tyndall Posts: 30,918



    Hahaha. Try applying for permission to build on the edge of a village!

    Clearly you travel around the country with your eyes closed. Practically every village has had new developments built onto them in the last decade.

    Indeed there has been so much village development that in areas like Newark and Sherwood they have decided to try and concentrate building around the main towns.

    Being intimately involved with the planning process (I study every application in two districts for possible archaeological impact) I can assure you that the system has significantly eased in favour of the developer over the last decade.
  • Options
    TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 41,209
    edited May 2018

    TOPPING said:

    geoffw said:

    geoffw said:

    Could someone explain how a "customs partnership" arrangement limits our ability to negotiate trade deals? This argument doesn't make sense to me. The "customs partnership" approach seems to be an administrative arrangement to avoid friction in trade to EU and a hard border with Ireland. It doesn't restrict the terms of any trade between the UK and other countries outsied EU. Am I missing something?

    The argument is that non-EU coun this mish-mash scheme offers little advantage over a customs union in terms of trade deals or freeing ourselves from EU regulation; it simply adds an enormously complicated administrative layer.

    Alternatively, if we don't want a customs union then we should go for Canada++ and accept the economic hit.
    Thank God for sanity from Boris.

    By the way Patrick Minford also supports Canada+.
    Patrick Minford thought the Irish border wasn't a problem because they already have passport checks there...
    The Irish border is a problem of the EU's making. It is a device to twist the "negotiations" in Brussel's favour. It also reveals Brussel's hostile attitude.
    Missing several hundred years context of Irish history. Did you really mean your vote to re-animate one of the most poisonous conflicts of recent and not so recent years right on our doorstep?

    Ireland, as a member, can expect support from the EU. Who'd a thought it?

    No one in their right minds, except perhaps you, wants to fuck with the situation as it exists in Ireland/NI post GFA.
    I think you'll find Leo Varadkar does and at some point it'll come back and bite him on the arse
    Not at all - He is just relating the UK's cakeist desire to the reality that his country faces.

    As his deputy put it:
    “The problem here is the British government’s stated position [in December], and still now, is they want to make sure there is no border infrastructure between Northern Ireland and Ireland, they don’t want trade barriers between Northern Ireland and the UK, and that the UK is leaving the customs union and the single market – and those things are simply not compatible."
  • Options
    TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 41,209
    Charles said:

    Charles said:

    Scott_P said:

    Charles said:

    And that is the fault of the EU.

    Bollocks.

    You Brexit, you broke it...
    Cutting out all of the context in s quote is a very unattractive habit.

    A security partnership makes sense for both sides. But it can’t just be one way. Galileo could - and should - be part of it
    Wanting political cooperation without politics is incoherent. It's almost like your preferred Brexit would be to become sui juris common law members of the EU without signing any pesky treaties.
    No. You can have partnership on specific items.

    It was QMV and the political direction of travel that was an issue for me.
    What a shame our then PM didn't manage to get an opt-out from that latter.
  • Options
    GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 20,845



    Hahaha. Try applying for permission to build on the edge of a village!

    Clearly you travel around the country with your eyes closed. Practically every village has had new developments built onto them in the last decade.

    Indeed there has been so much village development that in areas like Newark and Sherwood they have decided to try and concentrate building around the main towns.

    Being intimately involved with the planning process (I study every application in two districts for possible archaeological impact) I can assure you that the system has significantly eased in favour of the developer over the last decade.
    But isn’t the problem that the planning process can still be quite unpredictable and time consuming? Thus, you have to be a monopolistic house builder with huge land banks (and cookie cutter developments) to take part in the “market”.

    Our self-build market barely exists.
  • Options
    TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 41,209

    JonathanD said:

    Nigelb said:


    From the report:

    "- Grants would sit in government-approved interest-bearing savings accounts, and could be spent at a time of their recipients’ choosing on any combination of four permitted uses: education and training (including paying off tuition fee debt), deposits for house rental or purchase, pension saving, or the start-up costs of new businesses being supported through recognised entrepreneurship schemes

    - During the transition period, to reflect the experience of cohorts who entered the labour market around the time of the 2007-08 financial crisis, the policy would pay smaller amounts to cohorts aged over 25.

    - The citizen’s inheritance would be funded primarily by ending the current inheritance tax system and replacing it with a new lifetime receipts tax,

    - Citizen’s inheritances would count as part of their recipients’ £125,000 lifetime receipts tax allowances, This would help ensure the policy is progressive, while bringing forward the timing of inheritances for those due to receive money later in life."


    https://www.resolutionfoundation.org/app/uploads/2018/05/The-new-wealth-of-our-nation.pdf
    Surely better to tackle some of the fundamentals causing the generational imbalance than try to put a sticking plaster over it... E.g. remove the triple-lock, tackle housing costs (relax planning, allow/require local authorities to invest in housing), shift from taxing income and spend to taxing wealth.
    It is a complete myth that the current planning system prevents house building. The system has already been radically reformed and eased in favour of the developer (overly so as far as protection of the environment or archaeology is concerned). The main areas of planning that developers object to now are the requirement to fund amenities and services as part of their developments. They want to be able to build where they like and then walk away leaving estates with no schools, sports or social facilities.
    Hahaha. Try applying for permission to build on the edge of a village!
    Happens quite often sadly or happily depending on your point of view.
  • Options
    Richard_TyndallRichard_Tyndall Posts: 30,918



    Hahaha. Try applying for permission to build on the edge of a village!

    Clearly you travel around the country with your eyes closed. Practically every village has had new developments built onto them in the last decade.

    Indeed there has been so much village development that in areas like Newark and Sherwood they have decided to try and concentrate building around the main towns.

    Being intimately involved with the planning process (I study every application in two districts for possible archaeological impact) I can assure you that the system has significantly eased in favour of the developer over the last decade.
    But isn’t the problem that the planning process can still be quite unpredictable and time consuming? Thus, you have to be a monopolistic house builder with huge land banks (and cookie cutter developments) to take part in the “market”.

    Our self-build market barely exists.
    This is a subject I have been planning on writing a thread header on for some time. Once again it is an area where we cold learn great lessons from Europe. In the Netherlands Self builds account for 30% of all new builds. In Belgium it is 60%. In the UK it is 10% and falling.


    The land banking issue is a massive problem and I think paying Council Tax on undeveloped land which has outline planning permission would definitely be a good way to go.
  • Options
    TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 41,209



    Hahaha. Try applying for permission to build on the edge of a village!

    Clearly you travel around the country with your eyes closed. Practically every village has had new developments built onto them in the last decade.

    Indeed there has been so much village development that in areas like Newark and Sherwood they have decided to try and concentrate building around the main towns.

    Being intimately involved with the planning process (I study every application in two districts for possible archaeological impact) I can assure you that the system has significantly eased in favour of the developer over the last decade.
    But isn’t the problem that the planning process can still be quite unpredictable and time consuming? Thus, you have to be a monopolistic house builder with huge land banks (and cookie cutter developments) to take part in the “market”.

    Our self-build market barely exists.
    Not really. You can apply for planning permission to build, say X houses and as long as the proposed development complies with both the Local Plan and the Neighbourhood Plan, it is likely to get the go-ahead.
  • Options
    AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 23,754

    I spent the weekend in Portstewart, from which you can easily see Donegal. On a clear day, you can also just make out Islay.

    In the past, these three locations were all part of a single state. Now they are in two sovereign states. You could easily imagine circumstances where they are in three sovereign states in the not-too-distant future. Or two, differently configured.

    It does make you reflect on the arbitrariness of borders.

    were you marching at the weekend ?
    You're so 20th century. It's all about the gay cakes:

    https://twitter.com/AlastairMeeks/status/991244588496146434
    bands, outlandish costumes, synchronised movement, street food, singing I thought the OO might just be your scene

    you could star the first gay lodge
  • Options
    Richard_TyndallRichard_Tyndall Posts: 30,918
    TOPPING said:

    TOPPING said:

    geoffw said:

    geoffw said:

    Could someone explain how a "customs partnership" arrangement limits our ability to negotiate trade deals? This argument doesn't make sense to me. The "customs partnership" approach seems to be an administrative arrangement to avoid friction in trade to EU and a hard border with Ireland. It doesn't restrict the terms of any trade between the UK and other countries outsied EU. Am I missing something?

    The argument is that non-EU coun this mish-mash scheme offers little advantage over a customs union in terms of trade deals or freeing ourselves from EU regulation; it simply adds an enormously complicated administrative layer.

    Alternatively, if we don't want a customs union then we should go for Canada++ and accept the economic hit.
    Thank God for sanity from Boris.

    By the way Patrick Minford also supports Canada+.
    Patrick Minford thought the Irish border wasn't a problem because they already have passport checks there...
    The Irish border is a problem of the EU's making. It is a device to twist the "negotiations" in Brussel's favour. It also reveals Brussel's hostile attitude.
    Missing several hundred years context of Irish history. Did you really mean your vote to re-animate one of the most poisonous conflicts of recent and not so recent years right on our doorstep?

    Ireland, as a member, can expect support from the EU. Who'd a thought it?

    No one in their right minds, except perhaps you, wants to fuck with the situation as it exists in Ireland/NI post GFA.
    I think you'll find Leo Varadkar does and at some point it'll come back and bite him on the arse
    Not at all - He is just relating the UK's cakeist desire to the reality that his country faces.

    As his deputy put it:
    “The problem here is the British government’s stated position [in December], and still now, is they want to make sure there is no border infrastructure between Northern Ireland and Ireland, they don’t want trade barriers between Northern Ireland and the UK, and that the UK is leaving the customs union and the single market – and those things are simply not compatible."
    His predecessor was working with the British Government to come up with technological solutions. It is Varadkar who put the stop to that.
  • Options
    Richard_TyndallRichard_Tyndall Posts: 30,918
    TOPPING said:

    Charles said:

    Charles said:

    Scott_P said:

    Charles said:

    And that is the fault of the EU.

    Bollocks.

    You Brexit, you broke it...
    Cutting out all of the context in s quote is a very unattractive habit.

    A security partnership makes sense for both sides. But it can’t just be one way. Galileo could - and should - be part of it
    Wanting political cooperation without politics is incoherent. It's almost like your preferred Brexit would be to become sui juris common law members of the EU without signing any pesky treaties.
    No. You can have partnership on specific items.

    It was QMV and the political direction of travel that was an issue for me.
    What a shame our then PM didn't manage to get an opt-out from that latter.
    He didn't. It was just a can kicking exercise.
  • Options
    AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 23,754
    TOPPING said:

    TOPPING said:

    geoffw said:

    geoffw said:

    Could someone explain how a "customs partnership" arrangement limits our ability to negotiate trade deals? This argument doesn't make sense to me. The "customs partnership" approach seems to be an administrative arrangement to avoid friction in trade to EU and a hard border with Ireland. It doesn't restrict the terms of any trade between the UK and other countries outsied EU. Am I missing something?

    The argument is that non-EU coun this mish-mash scheme offers little advantage over a customs union in terms of trade deals or freeing ourselves from EU regulation; it simply adds an enormously complicated administrative layer.

    Alternatively, if we don't want a customs union then we should go for Canada++ and accept the economic hit.
    Thank God for sanity from Boris.

    By the way Patrick Minford also supports Canada+.
    Patrick Minford thought the Irish border wasn't a problem because they already have passport checks there...
    The Irish border is a problem of the EU's making. It is a device to twist the "negotiations" in Brussel's favour. It also reveals Brussel's hostile attitude.
    Missing several hundred years context of Irish history. Did you really mean your vote to re-animate one of the most poisonous conflicts of recent and not so recent years right on our doorstep?

    Ireland, as a member, can expect support from the EU. Who'd a thought it?

    No one in their right minds, except perhaps you, wants to fuck with the situation as it exists in Ireland/NI post GFA.
    I think you'll find Leo Varadkar does and at some point it'll come back and bite him on the arse
    Not at all - He is just relating the UK's cakeist desire to the reality that his country faces.

    As his deputy put it:
    “The problem here is the British government’s stated position [in December], and still now, is they want to make sure there is no border infrastructure between Northern Ireland and Ireland, they don’t want trade barriers between Northern Ireland and the UK, and that the UK is leaving the customs union and the single market – and those things are simply not compatible."
    if you honestly think that's what people up north think youre mad.

    LV should have just let the sleeping dogs lie, he's on a slippery slope
  • Options
    NemtynakhtNemtynakht Posts: 2,311



    It is a complete myth that the current planning system prevents house building. The system has already been radically reformed and eased in favour of the developer (overly so as far as protection of the environment or archaeology is concerned). The main areas of planning that developers object to now are the requirement to fund amenities and services as part of their developments. They want to be able to build where they like and then walk away leaving estates with no schools, sports or social facilities.

    Having spoken to a previous senior executive for a house builder about this, their opinion was that there should be a development land tax, as the land value is where the huge unearned gain comes from. A house builder has significant risks in deploying capital in the development process, but a land owner can have a huge windfall just by getting planning approval for their farmland. This benefits those who are significant land owners who have time and money to push to move their land into development plans, and not the small scale farmers, most of whom just want to carry on farming
    That again seems a bit of a red herring as the landowner would pay capital gains tax on the sale of the land to the developer at 28%. And if they have a profits option on the sale and subsequent development they would pay 45% on any further monies coming back at the end of the development.
    I agree in principle, but when totally unearned the value of your farmland goes from around £10,000 an acre to £1 million an acre, the 28% on that 990,000.00 doesn't seem too bad for the landowner - certainly the house builder has to do much more and at greater risk to make £712,800.

    Again this is often driven as much by the ability of the landowner to lobby the relevant people, I.e be able to pay consultants, or to 'know' the right sort of people.
This discussion has been closed.