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  • Options
    TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 41,209

    TOPPING said:

    Charles said:

    Charles said:

    Scott_P said:

    Charles said:

    And that is the fault of the EU.

    Bollocks.

    You Brexit, you broke it...
    Cutting out all of the context in s quote is a very unattractive habit.

    A security partnership makes sense for both sides. But it can’t just be one way. Galileo could - and should - be part of it
    Wanting political cooperation without politics is incoherent. It's almost like your preferred Brexit would be to become sui juris common law members of the EU without signing any pesky treaties.
    No. You can have partnership on specific items.

    It was QMV and the political direction of travel that was an issue for me.
    What a shame our then PM didn't manage to get an opt-out from that latter.
    He didn't. It was just a can kicking exercise.
    We'll never know will we Richard.
  • Options
    TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 41,209

    TOPPING said:

    TOPPING said:

    geoffw said:

    geoffw said:

    Could someone explain how a "customs partnership" assing something?

    The argument is that non-EU coun this mish-mash scheme offers little advantage over a customs union in terms of trade deals or freeing ourselves from EU regulation; it simply adds an enormously complicated administrative layer.

    Alternatively, if we don't want a customs union then we should go for Canada++ and accept the economic hit.
    Thank God for sanity from Boris.

    By the way Patrick Minford also supports Canada+.
    Patrick Minford thought the Irish border wasn't a problem because they already have passport checks there...
    The Irish border is a problem of the EU's making. It is a device to twist the "negotiations" in Brussel's favour. It also reveals Brussel's hostile attitude.
    Missing several hundred years context of Irish history. Did you really mean your vote to re-animate one of the most poisonous conflicts of recent and not so recent years right on our doorstep?

    Ireland, as a member, can expect support from the EU. Who'd a thought it?

    No one in their right minds, except perhaps you, wants to fuck with the situation as it exists in Ireland/NI post GFA.
    I think you'll find Leo Varadkar does and at some point it'll come back and bite him on the arse
    Not at all - He is just relating the UK's cakeist desire to the reality that his country faces.

    As his deputy put it:
    “The problem here is the British government’s stated position [in December], and still now, is they want to make sure there is no border infrastructure between Northern Ireland and Ireland, they don’t want trade barriers between Northern Ireland and the UK, and that the UK is leaving the customs union and the single market – and those things are simply not compatible."
    if you honestly think that's what people up north think youre mad.

    LV should have just let the sleeping dogs lie, he's on a slippery slope
    Up north? You mean in Nuneaton?

    I haven't spoken to everyone in the six counties and neither, I suspect, have you but I do see an irresistible logic to what LV said.
  • Options
    FF43FF43 Posts: 15,690
    Scott_P said:
    The customs partnership is never going to happen. Rules for customs unions are relatively straightforward. You are either in one or you are not. Boris doesn't need to resign.
  • Options
    AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 23,754
    TOPPING said:

    TOPPING said:

    TOPPING said:

    geoffw said:

    geoffw said:

    Could someone explain how a "customs partnership" assing something?

    The argument is that non-EU coun this mish-mash scheme offers little advantage over a customs union in terms of trade deals or freeing ourselves from EU regulation; it simply adds an enormously complicated administrative layer.

    Alternatively, if we don't want a customs union then we should go for Canada++ and accept the economic hit.
    Thank God for sanity from Boris.

    By the way Patrick Minford also supports Canada+.
    Patrick Minford thought the Irish border wasn't a problem because they already have passport checks there...
    The Irish border is a problem of the EU's making. It is a device to twist the "negotiations" in Brussel's favour. It also reveals Brussel's hostile attitude.
    Missing several hundred years context of Irish history. Did you really mean your vote to re-animate one of the most poisonous conflicts of recent and not so recent years right on our doorstep?

    Ireland, as a member, can expect support from the EU. Who'd a thought it?

    No one in their right minds, except perhaps you, wants to fuck with the situation as it exists in Ireland/NI post GFA.
    I think you'll find Leo Varadkar does and at some point it'll come back and bite him on the arse
    Not at all - He is just relating the UK's cakeist desire to the reality that his country faces.

    As his deputy put it:
    “The problem here is the British government’s stated position [in December], and still now, is they want to make sure there is no border infrastructure between Northern Ireland and Ireland, they don’t want trade barriers between Northern Ireland and the UK, and that the UK is leaving the customs union and the single market – and those things are simply not compatible."
    if you honestly think that's what people up north think youre mad.

    LV should have just let the sleeping dogs lie, he's on a slippery slope
    Up north? You mean in Nuneaton?

    I haven't spoken to everyone in the six counties and neither, I suspect, have you but I do see an irresistible logic to what LV said.
    you forgot to say you haven't spoken to Leo Varadkar either
  • Options
    Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 55,258

    Nigelb said:

    GIN1138 said:

    Scott_P said:
    "Two Brains" (And No Sense) Willetts coming up with another cunning plan to hit Con voters?

    Any sign of Letwin's fingerprints on this one? :D
    Keep Willetts well away from making government policy, the man will hit the Tory vote.

    On radio 5 this morning, the idea went down like a bucket of sick and the last time I mentioned that was the tory manifesto for the last GE.
    The £10k dividend for 25 year-olds is a bloody stupid idea - untargeted/means tested, discriminating against those just a bit too old (but suffering from exactly the same plight), and liable to be blown by the feckless.
    Far better to invest a lot more than that is public housebuilding, which would better address much the same problem - and which at current borrowing rates could in any event be a profitable investment.

    One of his brains is an idiot.

    Should the older generation make a larger tax contribution to their care ?
    Probably.
    Another way of incentivising it could be to offer full IHT relief on the estate of any older person who gifts up to £20k, say, to a person aged under 30 for the purposes of buying their own home.

    In other words, carrot for intergenerational redistribution better than stick.
    Like a PET but shorter than 7 years?
    Instant relief. I’d also be interested in a scheme that saw the Government partly/fully pay the cash up front to be recovered from the estate of the Parents 20-30 years hence (I.e a preinheritance tax credit). But that might be too complex or expensive.
  • Options
    williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 48,011

    if you honestly think that's what people up north think youre mad.

    LV should have just let the sleeping dogs lie, he's on a slippery slope

    Do you share John's view?
    https://twitter.com/KilclooneyJohn/status/991087078560747520
  • Options
    Richard_TyndallRichard_Tyndall Posts: 30,918
    TOPPING said:



    Hahaha. Try applying for permission to build on the edge of a village!

    Clearly you travel around the country with your eyes closed. Practically every village has had new developments built onto them in the last decade.

    Indeed there has been so much village development that in areas like Newark and Sherwood they have decided to try and concentrate building around the main towns.

    Being intimately involved with the planning process (I study every application in two districts for possible archaeological impact) I can assure you that the system has significantly eased in favour of the developer over the last decade.
    But isn’t the problem that the planning process can still be quite unpredictable and time consuming? Thus, you have to be a monopolistic house builder with huge land banks (and cookie cutter developments) to take part in the “market”.

    Our self-build market barely exists.
    Not really. You can apply for planning permission to build, say X houses and as long as the proposed development complies with both the Local Plan and the Neighbourhood Plan, it is likely to get the go-ahead.
    I think the problem is that local plans are very much directed towards large developers. So if you look at the local plan for Newark (apologies for always using this town as an example but it is the one I know) then the development plan is specifically tailored towards development is specific green field zones and infills which would need a very large developer to realise.

    There is very little scope outside of these zones for any small scale development.
  • Options
    NemtynakhtNemtynakht Posts: 2,311
    TOPPING said:



    Hahaha. Try applying for permission to build on the edge of a village!

    Clearly you travel around the country with your eyes closed. Practically every village has had new developments built onto them in the last decade.

    Indeed there has been so much village development that in areas like Newark and Sherwood they have decided to try and concentrate building around the main towns.

    Being intimately involved with the planning process (I study every application in two districts for possible archaeological impact) I can assure you that the system has significantly eased in favour of the developer over the last decade.
    But isn’t the problem that the planning process can still be quite unpredictable and time consuming? Thus, you have to be a monopolistic house builder with huge land banks (and cookie cutter developments) to take part in the “market”.

    Our self-build market barely exists.
    Not really. You can apply for planning permission to build, say X houses and as long as the proposed developments complies with both the Local Plan and the Neighbourhood Plan, it is likely to get the go-ahead.
    I don't actually think the house builders are monopolistic. Where I live I have seen quite a large number of small scale developments over the past few years, that is site with less than 5 units. Often due to the complexity of planning issues, one developer will take a lead role on getying planning, and then sell off some of the land to other developers to realise some profit pre development, and to spread the risk. All the developers fear a recession mid project which will wipe out any returns. As I have said it is th landowners who are currently realising a large amount of unearned wealth.
  • Options
    TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 114,258

    if you honestly think that's what people up north think youre mad.

    LV should have just let the sleeping dogs lie, he's on a slippery slope

    Do you share John's view?
    https://twitter.com/KilclooneyJohn/status/991087078560747520
    Do you think he’ll propose my membership of a Loyal Orange Order?
  • Options
    tlg86tlg86 Posts: 25,187
    Just catching up on today's Daily Politics. I'd be interested to see how Labour lowering the threshold/raising the rate of IHT would go down in London.
  • Options
    williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 48,011
    FF43 said:

    The customs partnership is never going to happen. Rules for customs unions are relatively straightforward. You are either in one or you are not. Boris doesn't need to resign.

    Which is why this is a proxy for Brexit itself. Boris doesn't want a customs union and doesn't think Brexit is worth it if we need one.

    This is perfect weather for kite flying if someone in the Tory party is brave enough to question the feasibility of Brexit.
  • Options
    Sean_FSean_F Posts: 35,789

    I spent the weekend in Portstewart, from which you can easily see Donegal. On a clear day, you can also just make out Islay.

    In the past, these three locations were all part of a single state. Now they are in two sovereign states. You could easily imagine circumstances where they are in three sovereign states in the not-too-distant future. Or two, differently configured.

    It does make you reflect on the arbitrariness of borders.

    were you marching at the weekend ?
    You're so 20th century. It's all about the gay cakes:

    https://twitter.com/AlastairMeeks/status/991244588496146434
    I liked the comment you got.
  • Options
    GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 20,845



    Hahaha. Try applying for permission to build on the edge of a village!

    Clearly you travel around the country with your eyes closed. Practically every village has had new developments built onto them in the last decade.

    Indeed there has been so much village development that in areas like Newark and Sherwood they have decided to try and concentrate building around the main towns.

    Being intimately involved with the planning process (I study every application in two districts for possible archaeological impact) I can assure you that the system has significantly eased in favour of the developer over the last decade.
    But isn’t the problem that the planning process can still be quite unpredictable and time consuming? Thus, you have to be a monopolistic house builder with huge land banks (and cookie cutter developments) to take part in the “market”.

    Our self-build market barely exists.
    This is a subject I have been planning on writing a thread header on for some time. Once again it is an area where we cold learn great lessons from Europe. In the Netherlands Self builds account for 30% of all new builds. In Belgium it is 60%. In the UK it is 10% and falling.


    The land banking issue is a massive problem and I think paying Council Tax on undeveloped land which has outline planning permission would definitely be a good way to go.
    That would be interesting.

    I feel like most people’s negativity about new development is due to the often poor quality of new builds. There seems to be a bug in the planning system that discriminates against small scale development and good design.

    Having said that, development in London has been much better quality since Boris of people specified the “new London vernacular”.
  • Options
    TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 114,258
    Imagine if a Corbynite had said the same about Anti-semitism being a fiction.

    https://twitter.com/daniel_sugarman/status/993773040289959938?s=21
  • Options
    AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 23,754

    if you honestly think that's what people up north think youre mad.

    LV should have just let the sleeping dogs lie, he's on a slippery slope

    Do you share John's view?
    https://twitter.com/KilclooneyJohn/status/991087078560747520
    no

    I think it's largely a generational thing. Blokes like Varadkar and Covey who have only ever grown up with the GFA think they can lay about with it without consequences.
  • Options
    Richard_TyndallRichard_Tyndall Posts: 30,918

    TOPPING said:



    Hahaha. Try applying for permission to build on the edge of a village!

    Clearly you travel around the country with your eyes closed. Practically every village has had new developments built onto them in the last decade.

    Indeed there has been so much village development that in areas like Newark and Sherwood they have decided to try and concentrate building around the main towns.

    Being intimately involved with the planning process (I study every application in two districts for possible archaeological impact) I can assure you that the system has significantly eased in favour of the developer over the last decade.
    But isn’t the problem that the planning process can still be quite unpredictable and time consuming? Thus, you have to be a monopolistic house builder with huge land banks (and cookie cutter developments) to take part in the “market”.

    Our self-build market barely exists.
    Not really. You can apply for planning permission to build, say X houses and as long as the proposed developments complies with both the Local Plan and the Neighbourhood Plan, it is likely to get the go-ahead.
    I don't actually think the house builders are monopolistic. Where I live I have seen quite a large number of small scale developments over the past few years, that is site with less than 5 units. Often due to the complexity of planning issues, one developer will take a lead role on getying planning, and then sell off some of the land to other developers to realise some profit pre development, and to spread the risk. All the developers fear a recession mid project which will wipe out any returns. As I have said it is th landowners who are currently realising a large amount of unearned wealth.
    According to the House Building Federation there are 2,500 Small and medium house building firms in the UK. But they account for only 12% of all homes built. The big 4 developers account for the other 88%.
  • Options
    AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 23,754

    if you honestly think that's what people up north think youre mad.

    LV should have just let the sleeping dogs lie, he's on a slippery slope

    Do you share John's view?
    https://twitter.com/KilclooneyJohn/status/991087078560747520
    Do you think he’ll propose my membership of a Loyal Orange Order?
    as Ive said many times you'll fit right in
  • Options
    TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 41,209
    edited May 2018

    TOPPING said:



    Hahaha. Try applying for permission to build on the edge of a village!

    Clearly you travel around the country with your eyes closed. Practically every village has had new developments built onto them in the last decade.

    Indeed there has been so much village development that in areas like Newark and Sherwood they have decided to try and concentrate building around the main towns.

    Being intimately involved with the planning process (I study every application in two districts for possible archaeological impact) I can assure you that the system has significantly eased in favour of the developer over the last decade.
    But isn’t the problem that the planning process can still be quite unpredictable and time consuming? Thus, you have to be a monopolistic house builder with huge land banks (and cookie cutter developments) to take part in the “market”.

    Our self-build market barely exists.
    Not really. You can apply for planning permission to build, say X houses and as long as the proposed development complies with both the Local Plan and the Neighbourhood Plan, it is likely to get the go-ahead.
    I think the problem is that local plans are very much directed towards large developers. So if you look at the local plan for Newark (apologies for always using this town as an example but it is the one I know) then the development plan is specifically tailored towards development is specific green field zones and infills which would need a very large developer to realise.

    There is very little scope outside of these zones for any small scale development.
    I agree the large developers are usually the only ones with the resources to actually develop on that scale. Which is why I think Neighbourhood Plans (the particular question related to developments in villages) are so important.

    Most people realise that houses need to be built and in most villages know where they would like development to take place. Neighbourhood Plans carry more heft that people believe (in that conflict with a Neighbourhood Plan is a valid reason for objection). In a way, village Plans are more straightforward because they are more contained.

    Asking someone off the street what Newark, or a London area say, should look like is far more challenging, and hence it tends to be broad brush building-height/EA-type content.
  • Options
    CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758
    TOPPING said:

    Charles said:

    Charles said:

    Scott_P said:

    Charles said:

    And that is the fault of the EU.

    Bollocks.

    You Brexit, you broke it...
    Cutting out all of the context in s quote is a very unattractive habit.

    A security partnership makes sense for both sides. But it can’t just be one way. Galileo could - and should - be part of it
    Wanting political cooperation without politics is incoherent. It's almost like your preferred Brexit would be to become sui juris common law members of the EU without signing any pesky treaties.
    No. You can have partnership on specific items.

    It was QMV and the political direction of travel that was an issue for me.
    What a shame our then PM didn't manage to get an opt-out from that latter.
    Not one that was going to work
  • Options
    FF43FF43 Posts: 15,690

    I think you'll find Leo Varadkar does and at some point it'll come back and bite him on the arse

    You are personalising this to Leo Varadkar, but he is expressing the mainstream Irish position that few people in Ireland would take issue with. The Irish may ultimately decide they made the wrong call and they may blame their taoiseach for it, but right now, that's where it's at.
  • Options
    glwglw Posts: 9,549
    Charles said:

    On a security level being entirely dependent on the goodwill of the US appears shortsighted

    I can't think of a realistic scenario where the US would want to disable EU use of GPS but would be entirely happy for us to use Galileo instead. It's more believable that the EU simply wanted to make work for European defence and space companies.

    For commercial use Galileo is not really needed now, and will be of even less use in the nearish future if any of the large LEO satellite constellations being built offer a navigation service.

  • Options
    TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 41,209
    Charles said:

    TOPPING said:

    Charles said:

    Charles said:

    Scott_P said:

    Charles said:

    And that is the fault of the EU.

    Bollocks.

    You Brexit, you broke it...
    Cutting out all of the context in s quote is a very unattractive habit.

    A security partnership makes sense for both sides. But it can’t just be one way. Galileo could - and should - be part of it
    Wanting political cooperation without politics is incoherent. It's almost like your preferred Brexit would be to become sui juris common law members of the EU without signing any pesky treaties.
    No. You can have partnership on specific items.

    It was QMV and the political direction of travel that was an issue for me.
    What a shame our then PM didn't manage to get an opt-out from that latter.
    Not one that was going to work
    Neither of us will ever know will we.
  • Options
    AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 23,754
    FF43 said:

    I think you'll find Leo Varadkar does and at some point it'll come back and bite him on the arse

    You are personalising this to Leo Varadkar, but he is expressing the mainstream Irish position that few people in Ireland would take issue with. The Irish may ultimately decide they made the wrong call and they may blame their taoiseach for it, but right now, that's where it's at.
    LV hasn't actually won an general election

    He took over from Enda Kenny who frankly had a better understanding of what he was dealing with.


  • Options
    CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758
    glw said:

    Charles said:

    On a security level being entirely dependent on the goodwill of the US appears shortsighted

    I can't think of a realistic scenario where the US would want to disable EU use of GPS but would be entirely happy for us to use Galileo instead. It's more believable that the EU simply wanted to make work for European defence and space companies.

    For commercial use Galileo is not really needed now, and will be of even less use in the nearish future if any of the large LEO satellite constellations being built offer a navigation service.

    I didn’t realise that Galileo is dependent on GPS - thought it was a replacement?

    If it’s dependent what’s the point?
  • Options
    TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 114,258

    if you honestly think that's what people up north think youre mad.

    LV should have just let the sleeping dogs lie, he's on a slippery slope

    Do you share John's view?
    https://twitter.com/KilclooneyJohn/status/991087078560747520
    Do you think he’ll propose my membership of a Loyal Orange Order?
    as Ive said many times you'll fit right in
    So I’ll be allowed to wear a Panama hat instead bowler hat?

    And a cream suit too? Black really isn’t my colour.
  • Options
    TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 114,258
    Turns out Oxford isn’t a complete dump after all.

    https://twitter.com/ngeographers/status/993764196847366144?s=21
  • Options
    MarkHopkinsMarkHopkins Posts: 5,584
    Charles said:

    glw said:

    Charles said:

    On a security level being entirely dependent on the goodwill of the US appears shortsighted

    I can't think of a realistic scenario where the US would want to disable EU use of GPS but would be entirely happy for us to use Galileo instead. It's more believable that the EU simply wanted to make work for European defence and space companies.

    For commercial use Galileo is not really needed now, and will be of even less use in the nearish future if any of the large LEO satellite constellations being built offer a navigation service.

    I didn’t realise that Galileo is dependent on GPS - thought it was a replacement?

    If it’s dependent what’s the point?

    That's not how I read glw's post. AFAIK Galileo is an independent constellation, and therefore an independent system.

    The US could disable their system, but Galileo would not be affected by that.

  • Options
    MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 25,040
    TOPPING said:

    geoffw said:

    geoffw said:

    Could someone explain how a "customs partnership" arrangement limits our ability to negotiate trade deals? This argument doesn't make sense to me. The "customs partnership" approach seems to be an administrative arrangement to avoid friction in trade to EU and a hard border with Ireland. It doesn't restrict the terms of any trade between the UK and other countries outsied EU. Am I missing something?

    The argument is that non-EU countries aren't likely to be keen on a trade deal if it involves the importer paying the full EU tariff at entry and potentially claiming back some difference between the EU and UK tariffs. Also in practice, regulatory divergence from the EU would be an enormous hassle.

    Boris is right - this is a bonkers scheme. There's a strong argument for a customs union on economic grounds (especially for the car manufacturing sector), but this mish-mash scheme offers little advantage over a customs union in terms of trade deals or freeing ourselves from EU regulation; it simply adds an enormously complicated administrative layer.

    Alternatively, if we don't want a customs union then we should go for Canada++ and accept the economic hit.
    Thank God for sanity from Boris.

    By the way Patrick Minford also supports Canada+.
    Patrick Minford thought the Irish border wasn't a problem because they already have passport checks there...
    The Irish border is a problem of the EU's making. It is a device to twist the "negotiations" in Brussel's favour. It also reveals Brussel's hostile attitude.
    Missing several hundred years context of Irish history. Did you really mean your vote to re-animate one of the most poisonous conflicts of recent and not so recent years right on our doorstep?

    Ireland, as a member, can expect support from the EU. Who'd a thought it?

    No one in their right minds, except perhaps you, wants to fuck with the situation as it exists in Ireland/NI post GFA.
    You haven't been paying attention! Several posters (you can guess the names) have over the months justified the customs arrangement fiasco by trying to unpick the GFA. You know the sort of thing 'Blair gave far too much away to Sinn Fein in the GFA with nothing in return, a hard border will realign that anomaly'. How any of these random statements might align is beyond me but seems to make perfect sense to the PB Brexiteer Brains Trust.
  • Options
    AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 23,754

    if you honestly think that's what people up north think youre mad.

    LV should have just let the sleeping dogs lie, he's on a slippery slope

    Do you share John's view?
    https://twitter.com/KilclooneyJohn/status/991087078560747520
    Do you think he’ll propose my membership of a Loyal Orange Order?
    as Ive said many times you'll fit right in
    So I’ll be allowed to wear a Panama hat instead bowler hat?

    And a cream suit too? Black really isn’t my colour.
    certainly

    don't forget the order is founded in honour of a gay dutchman
  • Options
    AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 23,754

    Turns out Oxford isn’t a complete dump after all.

    https://twitter.com/ngeographers/status/993764196847366144?s=21

    Nah - MT and TM

    like the Labour Party they just don't like women
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    TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 114,258
    tlg86 said:
    Oxford has a history of misogyny towards our female PMs.

    They treated Lady Thatcher disgracefully, fortunately Cambridge gave her the respect and honour she deserved.
  • Options
    TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 41,209
    edited May 2018
    tlg86 said:
    I don't think the answer to these tossers making an infantile point by taking down the portrait of one person, is to take down the portrait of another!
  • Options
    TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 114,258

    if you honestly think that's what people up north think youre mad.

    LV should have just let the sleeping dogs lie, he's on a slippery slope

    Do you share John's view?
    https://twitter.com/KilclooneyJohn/status/991087078560747520
    Do you think he’ll propose my membership of a Loyal Orange Order?
    as Ive said many times you'll fit right in
    So I’ll be allowed to wear a Panama hat instead bowler hat?

    And a cream suit too? Black really isn’t my colour.
    certainly

    don't forget the order is founded in honour of a gay dutchman
    Hoorah. I didn’t fancy getting the nickname ‘The Black and Tan’ when wearing a black suit in Northern Ireland.
  • Options
    AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 23,754

    if you honestly think that's what people up north think youre mad.

    LV should have just let the sleeping dogs lie, he's on a slippery slope

    Do you share John's view?
    https://twitter.com/KilclooneyJohn/status/991087078560747520
    Do you think he’ll propose my membership of a Loyal Orange Order?
    as Ive said many times you'll fit right in
    So I’ll be allowed to wear a Panama hat instead bowler hat?

    And a cream suit too? Black really isn’t my colour.
    certainly

    don't forget the order is founded in honour of a gay dutchman
    Hoorah. I didn’t fancy getting the nickname ‘The Black and Tan’ when wearing a black suit in Northern Ireland.
    try Cork

  • Options
    FoxyFoxy Posts: 44,491
    edited May 2018
  • Options
    TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 41,209

    if you honestly think that's what people up north think youre mad.

    LV should have just let the sleeping dogs lie, he's on a slippery slope

    Do you share John's view?
    https://twitter.com/KilclooneyJohn/status/991087078560747520
    Do you think he’ll propose my membership of a Loyal Orange Order?
    as Ive said many times you'll fit right in
    So I’ll be allowed to wear a Panama hat instead bowler hat?

    And a cream suit too? Black really isn’t my colour.
    certainly

    don't forget the order is founded in honour of a gay dutchman
    Hoorah. I didn’t fancy getting the nickname ‘The Black and Tan’ when wearing a black suit in Northern Ireland.
    Not so much a problem in the North...
  • Options
    TheWhiteRabbitTheWhiteRabbit Posts: 12,387
    TOPPING said:

    tlg86 said:
    I don't think the answer to these tossers making an infantile point by taking down the portrait of one person, is to take down the portrait of another!
    Personally I don't think it makes sense to take down portraits of famous people except in the most extreme cases. Sometimes the issue is different where it is something like an honorary degree, which can/should be withdrawn. But these are people whose degrees cannot be withdrawn. Instead the accompanying text should be neutral.



  • Options
    tlg86tlg86 Posts: 25,187
    TOPPING said:

    tlg86 said:
    I don't think the answer to these tossers making an infantile point by taking down the portrait of one person, is to take down the portrait of another!
    All he's doing is pointing out the utter hypocrisy of these numpties.
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    TheWhiteRabbitTheWhiteRabbit Posts: 12,387
    Foxy said:
    job at City Hall

    v. safe seat. Ladbrokes at 1/50
  • Options
    FoxyFoxy Posts: 44,491
    TOPPING said:

    if you honestly think that's what people up north think youre mad.

    LV should have just let the sleeping dogs lie, he's on a slippery slope

    Do you share John's view?
    https://twitter.com/KilclooneyJohn/status/991087078560747520
    Do you think he’ll propose my membership of a Loyal Orange Order?
    as Ive said many times you'll fit right in
    So I’ll be allowed to wear a Panama hat instead bowler hat?

    And a cream suit too? Black really isn’t my colour.
    certainly

    don't forget the order is founded in honour of a gay dutchman
    Hoorah. I didn’t fancy getting the nickname ‘The Black and Tan’ when wearing a black suit in Northern Ireland.
    Not so much a problem in the North...
    Well, possibly not in parts. Perhaps more problematic in some parts...
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    TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 114,258
    Foxy said:
    To campaign for AV be Sadiq Khan’s deputy at City Hall.
  • Options
    TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 41,209
    tlg86 said:

    TOPPING said:

    tlg86 said:
    I don't think the answer to these tossers making an infantile point by taking down the portrait of one person, is to take down the portrait of another!
    All he's doing is pointing out the utter hypocrisy of these numpties.
    Yes I get it just that I don't think engaging with them, and especially on those terms, is productive.
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    David_EvershedDavid_Evershed Posts: 6,506

    TOPPING said:



    Hahaha. Try applying for permission to build on the edge of a village!

    Clearly you travel around the country with your eyes closed. Practically every village has had new developments built onto them in the last decade.

    Indeed there has been so much village development that in areas like Newark and Sherwood they have decided to try and concentrate building around the main towns.

    Being intimately involved with the planning process (I study every application in two districts for possible archaeological impact) I can assure you that the system has significantly eased in favour of the developer over the last decade.
    But isn’t the problem that the planning process can still be quite unpredictable and time consuming? Thus, you have to be a monopolistic house builder with huge land banks (and cookie cutter developments) to take part in the “market”.

    Our self-build market barely exists.
    Not really. You can apply for planning permission to build, say X houses and as long as the proposed developments complies with both the Local Plan and the Neighbourhood Plan, it is likely to get the go-ahead.
    I don't actually think the house builders are monopolistic. Where I live I have seen quite a large number of small scale developments over the past few years, that is site with less than 5 units. Often due to the complexity of planning issues, one developer will take a lead role on getying planning, and then sell off some of the land to other developers to realise some profit pre development, and to spread the risk. All the developers fear a recession mid project which will wipe out any returns. As I have said it is th landowners who are currently realising a large amount of unearned wealth.
    According to the House Building Federation there are 2,500 Small and medium house building firms in the UK. But they account for only 12% of all homes built. The big 4 developers account for the other 88%.

    The big developers were small developers once.

    And some of the big developers will have become small or non-existent. For example Northern Devlopments was the biggest house builder in 1973.
  • Options
    TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 41,209
    Foxy said:

    TOPPING said:

    if you honestly think that's what people up north think youre mad.

    LV should have just let the sleeping dogs lie, he's on a slippery slope

    Do you share John's view?
    https://twitter.com/KilclooneyJohn/status/991087078560747520
    Do you think he’ll propose my membership of a Loyal Orange Order?
    as Ive said many times you'll fit right in
    So I’ll be allowed to wear a Panama hat instead bowler hat?

    And a cream suit too? Black really isn’t my colour.
    certainly

    don't forget the order is founded in honour of a gay dutchman
    Hoorah. I didn’t fancy getting the nickname ‘The Black and Tan’ when wearing a black suit in Northern Ireland.
    Not so much a problem in the North...
    Well, possibly not in parts. Perhaps more problematic in some parts...
    Time was the kerbstones were your guide...
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    YorkcityYorkcity Posts: 4,382
    edited May 2018

    Imagine if a Corbynite had said the same about Anti-semitism being a fiction.

    https://twitter.com/daniel_sugarman/status/993773040289959938?s=21

    Melanie Phillips was on The Sunday Politics show last Sunday saying the same .She did not receive much questioning of her view.
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    MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 50,095
    tlg86 said:
    Geography: where big spaces and small minds meet....
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    RobDRobD Posts: 58,955

    Turns out Oxford isn’t a complete dump after all.

    twitter.com/ngeographers/status/993764196847366144?s=21

    I assume that your comment is tongue in cheek, or does your hatred of May run that deep?

    What a pathetic campaign. The description on their twitter account is :

    "Challenging @theresa_may as an ‘important’ alumna from alumnae in the School of Geography and the Environment, University of Oxford"

    If becoming Prime Minister doesn't make you an important alumna, I'm not sure what does.
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    Richard_NabaviRichard_Nabavi Posts: 30,820
    edited May 2018
    RobD said:

    Turns out Oxford isn’t a complete dump after all.

    twitter.com/ngeographers/status/993764196847366144?s=21

    I assume that your comment is tongue in cheek, or does your hatred of May run that deep?

    What a pathetic campaign. The description on their twitter account is :

    "Challenging @theresa_may as an ‘important’ alumna from alumnae in the School of Geography and the Environment, University of Oxford"

    If becoming Prime Minister doesn't make you an important alumna, I'm not sure what does.
    To be fair, we've had so many PMs that it's not that much of a distinction... Mind you, it is for the Geography Department.
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    SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 20,578
    Foxy said:
    Most importantly, who gets to choose our candidate?

  • Options
    TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 114,258
    RobD said:

    Turns out Oxford isn’t a complete dump after all.

    twitter.com/ngeographers/status/993764196847366144?s=21

    I assume that your comment is tongue in cheek, or does your hatred of May run that deep?

    What a pathetic campaign. The description on their twitter account is :

    "Challenging @theresa_may as an ‘important’ alumna from alumnae in the School of Geography and the Environment, University of Oxford"

    If becoming Prime Minister doesn't make you an important alumna, I'm not sure what does.
    See my comment at 2:50 BST.

    Plus I don’t hate Theresa.

    I’m quite warming to her recently, she’s going to give us BINO and keep us in the customs union, that makes her the finest PM since Thatcher.
  • Options
    NigelbNigelb Posts: 62,329

    Imagine if a Corbynite had said the same about Anti-semitism being a fiction.

    https://twitter.com/daniel_sugarman/status/993773040289959938?s=21

    In her own way, Ms Phillips is every bit as looney as some of the Corbynites.
  • Options
    TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 41,209

    RobD said:

    Turns out Oxford isn’t a complete dump after all.

    twitter.com/ngeographers/status/993764196847366144?s=21

    I assume that your comment is tongue in cheek, or does your hatred of May run that deep?

    What a pathetic campaign. The description on their twitter account is :

    "Challenging @theresa_may as an ‘important’ alumna from alumnae in the School of Geography and the Environment, University of Oxford"

    If becoming Prime Minister doesn't make you an important alumna, I'm not sure what does.
    To be fair, we've had so many PMs that it's not that much of a distinction... Mind you, it is for the Geography Department.
    Pretty twattish bloke on Who Wants to be a Millionaire didn't know what MT's tutor had received her nobel prize for.

    Then again, he didn't know that Blackpool was in Lancashire so I suppose not knowing Nobel Laureates should have come as no surprise.
  • Options
    OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 31,915
    TOPPING said:

    if you honestly think that's what people up north think youre mad.

    LV should have just let the sleeping dogs lie, he's on a slippery slope

    Do you share John's view?
    https://twitter.com/KilclooneyJohn/status/991087078560747520
    Do you think he’ll propose my membership of a Loyal Orange Order?
    as Ive said many times you'll fit right in
    So I’ll be allowed to wear a Panama hat instead bowler hat?

    And a cream suit too? Black really isn’t my colour.
    certainly

    don't forget the order is founded in honour of a gay dutchman
    Hoorah. I didn’t fancy getting the nickname ‘The Black and Tan’ when wearing a black suit in Northern Ireland.
    Not so much a problem in the North...
    Well, you wouldn’t mix anything with Guinness in the South .........
  • Options
    MarkHopkinsMarkHopkins Posts: 5,584

    Foxy said:
    Most importantly, who gets to choose our candidate?


    You will be assigned an approved candidate by the great and glorious leadership.

    And don't forget to doff your cap to them when they do.

  • Options
    RobDRobD Posts: 58,955

    RobD said:

    Turns out Oxford isn’t a complete dump after all.

    twitter.com/ngeographers/status/993764196847366144?s=21

    I assume that your comment is tongue in cheek, or does your hatred of May run that deep?

    What a pathetic campaign. The description on their twitter account is :

    "Challenging @theresa_may as an ‘important’ alumna from alumnae in the School of Geography and the Environment, University of Oxford"

    If becoming Prime Minister doesn't make you an important alumna, I'm not sure what does.
    See my comment at 2:50 BST.

    Plus I don’t hate Theresa.

    I’m quite warming to her recently, she’s going to give us BINO and keep us in the customs union, that makes her the finest PM since Thatcher.
    Ah, that's what I get for not reading the rest of the thread! Apologies.
  • Options
    Richard_TyndallRichard_Tyndall Posts: 30,918

    RobD said:

    Turns out Oxford isn’t a complete dump after all.

    twitter.com/ngeographers/status/993764196847366144?s=21

    I assume that your comment is tongue in cheek, or does your hatred of May run that deep?

    What a pathetic campaign. The description on their twitter account is :

    "Challenging @theresa_may as an ‘important’ alumna from alumnae in the School of Geography and the Environment, University of Oxford"

    If becoming Prime Minister doesn't make you an important alumna, I'm not sure what does.
    See my comment at 2:50 BST.

    Plus I don’t hate Theresa.

    I’m quite warming to her recently, she’s going to give us BINO and keep us in the customs union, that makes her the finest PM since Thatcher.
    She can't keep us in the Customs Union. It is not in her power to do so without us remaining as a member of the EU.
  • Options
    Richard_TyndallRichard_Tyndall Posts: 30,918

    TOPPING said:



    Hahaha. Try applying for permission to build on the edge of a village!

    Clearly you travel around the country with your eyes closed. Practically every village has had new developments built onto them in the last decade.

    Indeed there has been so much village development that in areas like Newark and Sherwood they have decided to try and concentrate building around the main towns.

    Being intimately involved with the planning process (I study every application in two districts for possible archaeological impact) I can assure you that the system has significantly eased in favour of the developer over the last decade.
    But isn’t the problem that the planning process can still be quite unpredictable and time consuming? Thus, you have to be a monopolistic house builder with huge land banks (and cookie cutter developments) to take part in the “market”.

    Our self-build market barely exists.
    Not really. You can apply for planning permission to build, say X houses and as long as the proposed developments complies with both the Local Plan and the Neighbourhood Plan, it is likely to get the go-ahead.
    I don't actually think the house builders are monopolistic. Where I live I have seen quite a large number of small scale developments over the past few years, that is site with less than 5 units. Often due to the complexity of planning issues, one developer will take a lead role on getying planning, and then sell off some of the land to other developers to realise some profit pre development, and to spread the risk. All the developers fear a recession mid project which will wipe out any returns. As I have said it is th landowners who are currently realising a large amount of unearned wealth.
    According to the House Building Federation there are 2,500 Small and medium house building firms in the UK. But they account for only 12% of all homes built. The big 4 developers account for the other 88%.

    The big developers were small developers once.

    And some of the big developers will have become small or non-existent. For example Northern Developments was the biggest house builder in 1973.
    And thousands of small developers have been driven out of business by the big 4. The point being that a situation where 88% of the building is being done by just 4 companies who put immense pressure on local councils to grant green field planning permission by refusing to developed land banked assets is not healthy and is one of the reasons we have a housing crisis.
  • Options
    SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 20,578

    TOPPING said:

    if you honestly think that's what people up north think youre mad.

    LV should have just let the sleeping dogs lie, he's on a slippery slope

    Do you share John's view?
    https://twitter.com/KilclooneyJohn/status/991087078560747520
    Do you think he’ll propose my membership of a Loyal Orange Order?
    as Ive said many times you'll fit right in
    So I’ll be allowed to wear a Panama hat instead bowler hat?

    And a cream suit too? Black really isn’t my colour.
    certainly

    don't forget the order is founded in honour of a gay dutchman
    Hoorah. I didn’t fancy getting the nickname ‘The Black and Tan’ when wearing a black suit in Northern Ireland.
    Not so much a problem in the North...
    Well, you wouldn’t mix anything with Guinness in the South .........
    In the north, don't the Unionists have their Guinness with a dash of Orange?
  • Options
    williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 48,011

    RobD said:

    Turns out Oxford isn’t a complete dump after all.

    twitter.com/ngeographers/status/993764196847366144?s=21

    I assume that your comment is tongue in cheek, or does your hatred of May run that deep?

    What a pathetic campaign. The description on their twitter account is :

    "Challenging @theresa_may as an ‘important’ alumna from alumnae in the School of Geography and the Environment, University of Oxford"

    If becoming Prime Minister doesn't make you an important alumna, I'm not sure what does.
    See my comment at 2:50 BST.

    Plus I don’t hate Theresa.

    I’m quite warming to her recently, she’s going to give us BINO and keep us in the customs union, that makes her the finest PM since Thatcher.
    She can't keep us in the Customs Union. It is not in her power to do so without us remaining as a member of the EU.
    Which is in her power so she can.
  • Options
    David_EvershedDavid_Evershed Posts: 6,506

    Foxy said:
    To campaign for AV be Sadiq Khan’s deputy at City Hall.
    And ambitious to be next London Mayor.
  • Options
    Richard_NabaviRichard_Nabavi Posts: 30,820

    And thousands of small developers have been driven out of business by the big 4. The point being that a situation where 88% of the building is being done by just 4 companies who put immense pressure on local councils to grant green field planning permission by refusing to developed land banked assets is not healthy and is one of the reasons we have a housing crisis.

    Actually it was more the banks that drove them out of business - they couldn't get finance after the financial crisis, and a lot dropped out of the market because of that.

    It is a precarious business - the big 4 and a few others are coining it in now, but even the big guys were in a very bad state eight years ago, with many of them having to go to shareholders to raise emergency funding. The idea that it's a licence to print money is garbage - just look at the P/E ratios of housebuilders.
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    OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 31,915
    Charles said:

    Scott_P said:

    Charles said:

    The GP doesn’t have the expertise to add to the imaging assessment so there is no benefit

    The person qualified to diagnose the need for, and request, the image, is not qualified, in your view, to see the image...

    The person qualified to see the image, in your view, doesn't need to verify the request.

    I don't think that is a good way of working.
    Yes. They are different skills for different purposes.

    The GP is identifying it’s possibly more than a simple sprain. The imaging expert takes that on trust and reviews the image. The GP could spend time looking at the images but won’t change the answer so it’s not efficient

    Specialisation of labour is abasic concept

    Quite. Economic use of GP and consultant time. Plus the patient probably gets the overall result quicker, overall, since they don’t have to wait for an opportunity to see the consultant.
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    CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758

    Turns out Oxford isn’t a complete dump after all.

    https://twitter.com/ngeographers/status/993764196847366144?s=21

    The discourtesy of some people is extraordinary. You may not agree with her but that doesn’t m an she’s not PM
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    Richard_TyndallRichard_Tyndall Posts: 30,918
    TOPPING said:


    I agree the large developers are usually the only ones with the resources to actually develop on that scale. Which is why I think Neighbourhood Plans (the particular question related to developments in villages) are so important.

    Most people realise that houses need to be built and in most villages know where they would like development to take place. Neighbourhood Plans carry more heft that people believe (in that conflict with a Neighbourhood Plan is a valid reason for objection). In a way, village Plans are more straightforward because they are more contained.

    Asking someone off the street what Newark, or a London area say, should look like is far more challenging, and hence it tends to be broad brush building-height/EA-type content.

    It is pointless anyway. In the case of Newark the District Council applied for and got Growth Point status in secret, later claiming it was because the information was commercially sensitive. So a plan which will increase the size of the town by 60% in 15 years was presented as a fait a complis and the man in the street had no say at all.
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    MarkHopkinsMarkHopkins Posts: 5,584

    new thread

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    TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 114,258

    NEW THREAD

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    FoxyFoxy Posts: 44,491

    Charles said:

    Scott_P said:

    Charles said:

    The GP doesn’t have the expertise to add to the imaging assessment so there is no benefit

    The person qualified to diagnose the need for, and request, the image, is not qualified, in your view, to see the image...

    The person qualified to see the image, in your view, doesn't need to verify the request.

    I don't think that is a good way of working.
    Yes. They are different skills for different purposes.

    The GP is identifying it’s possibly more than a simple sprain. The imaging expert takes that on trust and reviews the image. The GP could spend time looking at the images but won’t change the answer so it’s not efficient

    Specialisation of labour is abasic concept

    Quite. Economic use of GP and consultant time. Plus the patient probably gets the overall result quicker, overall, since they don’t have to wait for an opportunity to see the consultant.
    It depends on the nature of the case. Seeing the images has the advantage for the referer of sense checking the Radiologist for mistakes, and the Radiologist benefits from clinical input to know what to look for. Complex cases benefit from combined MDT meetings.

    The Interpretive side of Radiology is probably going to be made obselete by Big Data derived alogarithms, but not the interventional aspects. In the meantime Big Data needs robust diagnoses for baseline.
This discussion has been closed.