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politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » Ladbrokes open market on the battle within LAB for Lewisham Ea

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  • SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 27,177

    Elliot said:

    The Daily Mail should stop pussy footing around. Just start a campaign to install Rees-Mogg as a kind of Lord Protector. It's the logical consequence of what it's been raving about for months.

    The Daily Mail is giving every impression of protesting too much. As the reality of Brexit begins to dawn, the Brexiteer search for scapegoats is intensifying. The fact is that what voters were promised is undeliverable. The imperative now is to find people to blame for that. It can be anyone, as long as it is not those who are truly to blame - the ones who never bothered to learn what leaving actually entailed, how complicated and time-consuming it would be and the compromises that would be necessary to make it economically viable.

    Remainers do everything they do to make a Brexit in Name Only, insisting that you only need to leave in name to fulfil the referendum result, then blame Brexiteers for not fulfilling the actual benefits. Of course you can't get the benefits of other trade deals if Remainers win and keep us in the EU customs union.... Remainers own that if it happens.
    The deal on the Customs Union is obvious. What I can't understand is why so much heat is being generated about it now.

    Leavers, through woeful lack of preparation, have no real alternative to offer to continued membership of a customs union for now. So the UK will stay in it on a renewable basis. That will give Leavers the opportunity to work with the Ministry of Magic to find a way to solve the problem in a few years' time.

    Perhaps the heat is being generated because the Leave hierarchy are so furious with themselves for being so incompetent.

    Lazy, more like. They could not be arsed to find out how the EU works, how the Customs Union works or how trade deals are done. They winged it, convinced themselves the UK held all the cards and as a result we are where we are.

  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 14,800

    Charles said:

    GIN1138 said:

    GIN1138 said:



    The way in which honestly held different opinions legitimately expressed have become routinely labelled xenophobic is very dangerous.


    Hmmmmmmmm
    There was never the slightest chance on untold millions of Turks descending on Britain in the foreseeable future. But Vote Leave decided to scare people into believing that. The opinion wasn’t honest, it was not legitimately expressed.
    I'm just pointing out that at this point it's a bit rich for anyone on the remain or leave side to be taking the moral high ground over insults.

    What about the little gem put about by Sir Vince Cable that all the people who voted to leave the EU were horrible old racists and the sooner they all die off the better?

    Or the idea put around a while back that old people should be deprived the vote because they won't be alive to suffer the consequences, etc.

    Things have got very, very nasty - On BOTH sides.
    The Leave campaign was won through xenophobic lies. I appreciate that Leave supporters don’t like that being brought up but it’s hardly an insult, just a fair summary of the evidence.

    Labelling someone a traitor is to label them as acting against their country’s best interests. Far right extremism is a big enough problem already. It doesn’t need a national newspaper fanning that flame still further.
    Arguably ignoring the result of a referendum - which is the motivation of many of those in the Lords who are manouvering - is against the best interests of the country.
    A reminder - the result was close. It didn't mention the Customs Union or Single Market. The Lords votes are not ignoring the result.
    The inconvenient truth in the whole Brexit debate.
  • CD13CD13 Posts: 4,711
    Mr Song,

    "A reminder - the result was close. It didn't mention the Customs Union or Single Market. The Lords votes are not ignoring the result."

    Illogical.

    The vote was to leave the European Union. Can we do that by staying in the common market and the customs union? The answer is No, because that would involve taking on all the other responsibilities of EU membership. The EU can't and won't allow anything else.

    Do you deny that?

    Basically, what the Lords want is for us to ignore the vote and pretend we've left.
  • rkrkrkrkrkrk Posts: 4,627

    Mr. rkrkrk, it'll also increase the incentive for those deliberately trying to get us the worst possible deal by maximising the EU influence over the UK without corresponding perks (ie the costs of membership without the advantages).

    Brilliantly, that also means [if it happens] whether we stay *or* leave the subject will remain a bitter source of contention for decades.

    If we crash out in a disorderly without any basic agreements - that will definitely be the worst scenario. Far, far worse than staying in a customs union/single market and making payments.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 46,071

    Foxy said:

    tlg86 said:

    Foxy said:

    tlg86 said:

    I see Chelsea lost three PL records last night and Man Utd will likely lose another on Sunday.

    I like this Man City team, they've left our two records in tact!

    It was an odd night last night. Our first win against a Wenger side. We last beat Arsenal in the pre Wenger era. We haven't had a League win since January. Playing 10 men helped a bit.

    Leicester fans singing "How crap must you be? we just scored a goal!"

    That was actually one of our better away performances last night. If Arsenal make only one signing this summer, it must be to get Aaron Ramsey to sign a new contract.
    Patchy though it was, it was Leicester's first decent display since we beat Spurs at the end of last year.

    I have a residual £50 on Leicester to beat Spurs on Sunday, placed as part of my wonderfully doomed Tottenham choke campaign. Having qualified for the CL and with a stack of injuries I am not sure Spurs will be fully involved in Sunday’s game, so I could still come out a long way ahead. If not, it was money well spent!

    HOORAR - for a few losing bets!!!!!!!!!!

    Top night last night especially when we heard the Chelsea result, big cheers......

    Off to count the number of London teams in the CL for 2018-19...
    Chelsea still have a chance don't they ?

    Though it is not brilliant now.
  • AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 21,334
    CD13 said:

    Mr Song,

    "A reminder - the result was close. It didn't mention the Customs Union or Single Market. The Lords votes are not ignoring the result."

    Illogical.

    The vote was to leave the European Union. Can we do that by staying in the common market and the customs union? The answer is No, because that would involve taking on all the other responsibilities of EU membership. The EU can't and won't allow anything else.

    Do you deny that?

    Basically, what the Lords want is for us to ignore the vote and pretend we've left.

    The single market and the customs union need to be distinguished.

    The anti-immigrant campaign run by Leave means that the referendum result has to be honoured (I use the word neutrally) by a settlement that brings freedom of movement to an end. That necessitates leaving the single market.

    Since Leave decided to campaign about immigrants and NHS funding, questions of the customs arrangements with the EU are very much up for grabs. If Leavers wanted to obtain a mandate for leaving a customs union with the EU, they would have needed to fight a very different campaign.
  • SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 27,177

    Foxy said:

    tlg86 said:

    Foxy said:

    tlg86 said:

    I see Chelsea lost three PL records last night and Man Utd will likely lose another on Sunday.

    I like this Man City team, they've left our two records in tact!

    It was an odd night last night. Our first win against a Wenger side. We last beat Arsenal in the pre Wenger era. We haven't had a League win since January. Playing 10 men helped a bit.

    Leicester fans singing "How crap must you be? we just scored a goal!"

    That was actually one of our better away performances last night. If Arsenal make only one signing this summer, it must be to get Aaron Ramsey to sign a new contract.
    Patchy though it was, it was Leicester's first decent display since we beat Spurs at the end of last year.

    I have a residual £50 on Leicester to beat Spurs on Sunday, placed as part of my wonderfully doomed Tottenham choke campaign. Having qualified for the CL and with a stack of injuries I am not sure Spurs will be fully involved in Sunday’s game, so I could still come out a long way ahead. If not, it was money well spent!

    HOORAR - for a few losing bets!!!!!!!!!!

    Top night last night especially when we heard the Chelsea result, big cheers......

    Off to count the number of London teams in the CL for 2018-19...

    I financed my entire campaign on the back of my winnings from the ridiculous 9/4 I got on Man Utd beating us in the semi-final. I put £50 on that, so if we finish third that’s what I lose. If not, I’m ahead.

  • Scrapheap_as_wasScrapheap_as_was Posts: 8,571
    Pulpstar said:

    Foxy said:

    tlg86 said:

    Foxy said:

    tlg86 said:

    I see Chelsea lost three PL records last night and Man Utd will likely lose another on Sunday.

    I like this Man City team, they've left our two records in tact!

    It was an odd night last night. Our first win against a Wenger side. We last beat Arsenal in the pre Wenger era. We haven't had a League win since January. Playing 10 men helped a bit.

    Leicester fans singing "How crap must you be? we just scored a goal!"

    That was actually one of our better away performances last night. If Arsenal make only one signing this summer, it must be to get Aaron Ramsey to sign a new contract.
    Patchy though it was, it was Leicester's first decent display since we beat Spurs at the end of last year.

    I have a residual £50 on Leicester to beat Spurs on Sunday, placed as part of my wonderfully doomed Tottenham choke campaign. Having qualified for the CL and with a stack of injuries I am not sure Spurs will be fully involved in Sunday’s game, so I could still come out a long way ahead. If not, it was money well spent!

    HOORAR - for a few losing bets!!!!!!!!!!

    Top night last night especially when we heard the Chelsea result, big cheers......

    Off to count the number of London teams in the CL for 2018-19...
    Chelsea still have a chance don't they ?

    Though it is not brilliant now.
    Yup..... deliciously remote but a chance....
  • Scrapheap_as_wasScrapheap_as_was Posts: 8,571

    Foxy said:

    tlg86 said:

    Foxy said:

    tlg86 said:

    I see Chelsea lost three PL records last night and Man Utd will likely lose another on Sunday.

    I like this Man City team, they've left our two records in tact!

    It was an odd night last night. Our first win against a Wenger side. We last beat Arsenal in the pre Wenger era. We haven't had a League win since January. Playing 10 men helped a bit.

    Leicester fans singing "How crap must you be? we just scored a goal!"

    That was actually one of our better away performances last night. If Arsenal make only one signing this summer, it must be to get Aaron Ramsey to sign a new contract.
    Patchy though it was, it was Leicester's first decent display since we beat Spurs at the end of last year.

    I have a residual £50 on Leicester to beat Spurs on Sunday, placed as part of my wonderfully doomed Tottenham choke campaign. Having qualified for the CL and with a stack of injuries I am not sure Spurs will be fully involved in Sunday’s game, so I could still come out a long way ahead. If not, it was money well spent!

    HOORAR - for a few losing bets!!!!!!!!!!

    Top night last night especially when we heard the Chelsea result, big cheers......

    Off to count the number of London teams in the CL for 2018-19...

    I financed my entire campaign on the back of my winnings from the ridiculous 9/4 I got on Man Utd beating us in the semi-final. I put £50 on that, so if we finish third that’s what I lose. If not, I’m ahead.

    Yup - very profitable wobble for me (Man U, West Brom, Chelsea beating Liverpool) AND we still get CL...
  • TykejohnnoTykejohnno Posts: 7,250

    I’m looking forward to the day the Mail comes out against the Queen for alleged pro-EU sympathies. It’s the logical end point of its slavering nihilism.

    Why ? The Queen did more for the leave cause than we could have hoped,maybe the nasty comment from you walker of waiting for them to die off will be enough.
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 45,446
    edited May 10
    Mr. rkrkrk, indeed, running the clock down with no agreement made or preparation begun is utterly in the EU's interest, and thoroughly idiotic from the UK's perspective.

    That said, renaming the customs union the customs partnership and hoping nobody notices we 'left' the EU and they dictate our trade deals is about as likely to work as Brown turning up late to sign the Constitution Lisbon Treaty.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 10,844
    CD13 said:

    Mr Song,

    "A reminder - the result was close. It didn't mention the Customs Union or Single Market. The Lords votes are not ignoring the result."

    Illogical.

    The vote was to leave the European Union. Can we do that by staying in the common market and the customs union? The answer is No, because that would involve taking on all the other responsibilities of EU membership. The EU can't and won't allow anything else.

    Do you deny that?

    Basically, what the Lords want is for us to ignore the vote and pretend we've left.

    Actually it would be 'yes', since we wouldn't be a member. Good luck trying to persuade bookmakers to settle their bets on any other basis!
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 22,352
    We’re in, as I think they said in Mission Impossible. Posting incredibly difficult this morning.

    Really disappointed not to see Ken Livingston on the list.

    And to talk about traitors in Ermine on a site with contributors who have been so enthusiastically betting against their own team, well, words fail me.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 46,071
    I don't care what the Lords do so long as the Betfair Market on leaving 'on time' isn't wrecked.
  • not_on_firenot_on_fire Posts: 2,481
    edited May 10
    CD13 said:

    Mr Song,

    "A reminder - the result was close. It didn't mention the Customs Union or Single Market. The Lords votes are not ignoring the result."

    Illogical.

    The vote was to leave the European Union. Can we do that by staying in the common market and the customs union? The answer is No, because that would involve taking on all the other responsibilities of EU membership. The EU can't and won't allow anything else.

    Do you deny that?.

    Erm, yes. By definition leaving the EU means we have left the EU. And you can certainly not be an EU member and be in the SM and CU, just like Norway. The referendum result was close, so the outcome that best reflects that is leaving the EU abut staying very close. EEA membership would meet that.

    If Brexiteers want us to leave the SM and CU they should be calling for a referendum on tht. They won’t, because they’d lose.
  • CD13CD13 Posts: 4,711
    Mr Meeks,

    The customs union makes sense as long as it doesn't hobble us from us making trade deals with other countries. We are a free and independent nation, surely?
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 22,825
    DavidL said:

    We’re in, as I think they said in Mission Impossible. Posting incredibly difficult this morning.

    Really disappointed not to see Ken Livingston on the list.

    And to talk about traitors in Ermine on a site with contributors who have been so enthusiastically betting against their own team, well, words fail me.

    Ken Livingstone would have been a great candidate.
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 45,446
    Mr. Fire, ha. If it had been 52% Remain we'd've had the Lords suggesting it was a green light to join the single currency. We would not have the political/media class in London talking about a looser relationship and regaining powers from the EU.

    It's a ratchet. Whenever someone says 'no' it can be overturned or watered down. Whenever someone says 'yes' it's full steam ahead, no need to pay attention to those pesky sceptics.

    Just rename the Constitution, or the customs union. Just re-run the referendum, or even overturn the result without bothering. Nobody will notice. There certainly won't be any consequences for showing contempt for democracy.

    What you're suggesting, what the Lords et al. are suggesting, is that we wanted a divorce, and the relationship to end. But we should stay in the same house, share the same bed, keep the joint account and retain the schedule of chores.

    To coin a phrase, they want to be able to think: nothing has changed.
  • not_on_firenot_on_fire Posts: 2,481
    edited May 10
    CD13 said:

    Mr Meeks,

    The customs union makes sense as long as it doesn't hobble us from us making trade deals with other countries. We are a free and independent nation, surely?

    We are a mid-sized nation that has historically punched above its economic weight thanks to factors that are no longer really present (Empire, military etc.). In the modern globalised economy it is best to be part of a large trade bloc. The concept of an independent nation state is a very 20th century concept and is increasingly redundant.
  • AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 21,334
    CD13 said:

    Mr Meeks,

    The customs union makes sense as long as it doesn't hobble us from us making trade deals with other countries. We are a free and independent nation, surely?

    You're now into a completely different set of questions, which come under the heading "what should Britain look for?" That's not covered by the referendum.

    Britain was already a free and independent nation as part of the EU, despite all the efforts by Leavers talking it down, with their absurd comparisons to Nazi Germany and slavery. Leaving the EU does not end the need for compromise with other nations.

    As Leavers will eventually realise, control is nothing without power.
  • CD13CD13 Posts: 4,711
    Mr fire,

    "The referendum result was close, so the outcome that best reflects that is leaving the EU abut staying very close. EEA membership would meet that."

    So if Jezza wins the GE by a couple of percent only, he will implement some Conservative policies to reflect the closeness of the result?

  • CD13CD13 Posts: 4,711
    Mr Dancer,

    Well put. At least there are some adults on this thread. I thought the Violet Elizabeth Botts were taking over.
  • GIN1138GIN1138 Posts: 11,873
    Scott_P said:

    The Mail have gone too far but their description of Lord Mandelson as a "viper in Versace" is quite good. :D

    And again there's a full break down of the eye-watering amounts of money Lord and Lady Kinnock are raking in from the EU gravy train while trying to stop the largest democratic vote in British history...
  • not_on_firenot_on_fire Posts: 2,481
    GIN1138 said:

    Scott_P said:

    The Mail have gone too far but their description of Lord Mandelson as a "viper in Versace" is quite good. :D

    And again there's a full break down of the eye-watering amounts of money Lord and Lady Kinnock are raking in from the EU gravy train while trying to stop the largest democratic vote in British history...
    Irrelevant - the Kinnocks will get the EU money whether or not Brexit happens
  • GIN1138GIN1138 Posts: 11,873
    edited May 10
    Scott_P said:
    To be fair at that point the Lords hadn't implicitly set about trying to block the business of an elected government thus plunging us into a constitutional crisis...

    And also maybe some of them believed in Lords reform but didn't think the reform being proposed by Clegg was the correct reform?
  • GIN1138GIN1138 Posts: 11,873

    GIN1138 said:

    Scott_P said:

    The Mail have gone too far but their description of Lord Mandelson as a "viper in Versace" is quite good. :D

    And again there's a full break down of the eye-watering amounts of money Lord and Lady Kinnock are raking in from the EU gravy train while trying to stop the largest democratic vote in British history...
    Irrelevant - the Kinnocks will get the EU money whether or not Brexit happens
    I'm sure that pair of money grabbers will... :D
  • Scott_PScott_P Posts: 38,678
    GIN1138 said:

    To be fair at that point the Lords hadn't implicitly set about trying to block the business of an elected government thus plunging us into a constitutional crisis at that point...

    And also maybe some of them believed in Lords reform but didn't think the reform being proposed by Clegg was the correct reform?

    So, Brexiteers are allowed to change their minds...

    Interesting precedent
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 45,981

    CD13 said:

    Mr Meeks,

    The customs union makes sense as long as it doesn't hobble us from us making trade deals with other countries. We are a free and independent nation, surely?

    We are a mid-sized nation that has historically punched above its economic weight thanks to factors that are no longer really present (Empire, military etc.). In the modern globalised economy it is best to be part of a large trade bloc. The concept of an independent nation state is a very 20th century concept and is increasingly redundant.
    Tell that to the 190 independent nations there now are in the world, more than in the days of Empire

    Plus being an independent state does not preclude being part of blocks for trade or defence or co operation like the U.N., NATO, the G20 as well of course as the EU or EEA or EFTA
  • GIN1138GIN1138 Posts: 11,873
    Scott_P said:

    GIN1138 said:

    To be fair at that point the Lords hadn't implicitly set about trying to block the business of an elected government thus plunging us into a constitutional crisis at that point...

    And also maybe some of them believed in Lords reform but didn't think the reform being proposed by Clegg was the correct reform?

    So, Brexiteers are allowed to change their minds...

    Interesting precedent
    Of course. In fact a lot of us changed our minds (from being on the fence) when we saw the miserable gruel Cameron brought back from his "negotiation"
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 16,933
    surby said:

    AndyJS said:

    The LDs got most votes in Lewisham East just three local election cycles ago.

    The Whigs probably did in the 1850's also.
    They are sitting this one out apparently:

    http://whigs.uk/
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 22,825

    Mr. Fire, ha. If it had been 52% Remain we'd've had the Lords suggesting it was a green light to join the single currency. We would not have the political/media class in London talking about a looser relationship and regaining powers from the EU.

    It's a ratchet. Whenever someone says 'no' it can be overturned or watered down. Whenever someone says 'yes' it's full steam ahead, no need to pay attention to those pesky sceptics.

    Just rename the Constitution, or the customs union. Just re-run the referendum, or even overturn the result without bothering. Nobody will notice. There certainly won't be any consequences for showing contempt for democracy.

    What you're suggesting, what the Lords et al. are suggesting, is that we wanted a divorce, and the relationship to end. But we should stay in the same house, share the same bed, keep the joint account and retain the schedule of chores.

    To coin a phrase, they want to be able to think: nothing has changed.

    If we'd had a vote on the Constitution, as promised, we would probably not have ended up voting to leave. Cunning plans that work in the short term tend to fail in the long term.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 45,981

    CD13 said:

    Mr Song,

    "A reminder - the result was close. It didn't mention the Customs Union or Single Market. The Lords votes are not ignoring the result."

    Illogical.

    The vote was to leave the European Union. Can we do that by staying in the common market and the customs union? The answer is No, because that would involve taking on all the other responsibilities of EU membership. The EU can't and won't allow anything else.

    Do you deny that?.

    Erm, yes. By definition leaving the EU means we have left the EU. And you can certainly not be an EU member and be in the SM and CU, just like Norway. The referendum result was close, so the outcome that best reflects that is leaving the EU abut staying very close. EEA membership would meet that.

    If Brexiteers want us to leave the SM and CU they should be calling for a referendum on tht. They won’t, because they’d lose.
    The main reason Leave won was immigration and sovereignty. The EEA leaves free movement unchecked and the Customs Union prevents us doing our own trade deals therefore rendering Brexit pointless which is the main reason diehard Remainers want to stay in both ie remain in the EU in all but name
  • ElliotElliot Posts: 1,516

    CD13 said:

    Mr Song,

    "A reminder - the result was close. It didn't mention the Customs Union or Single Market. The Lords votes are not ignoring the result."

    Illogical.

    The vote was to leave the European Union. Can we do that by staying in the common market and the customs union? The answer is No, because that would involve taking on all the other responsibilities of EU membership. The EU can't and won't allow anything else.

    Do you deny that?.

    Erm, yes. By definition leaving the EU means we have left the EU. And you can certainly not be an EU member and be in the SM and CU, just like Norway. The referendum result was close, so the outcome that best reflects that is leaving the EU abut staying very close. EEA membership would meet that.

    If Brexiteers want us to leave the SM and CU they should be calling for a referendum on tht. They won’t, because they’d lose.
    Europhiles never called a referendum on the half dozen integration treaties of the last 50 years.
  • ElliotElliot Posts: 1,516
    HYUFD said:

    CD13 said:

    Mr Song,

    "A reminder - the result was close. It didn't mention the Customs Union or Single Market. The Lords votes are not ignoring the result."

    Illogical.

    The vote was to leave the European Union. Can we do that by staying in the common market and the customs union? The answer is No, because that would involve taking on all the other responsibilities of EU membership. The EU can't and won't allow anything else.

    Do you deny that?.

    Erm, yes. By definition leaving the EU means we have left the EU. And you can certainly not be an EU member and be in the SM and CU, just like Norway. The referendum result was close, so the outcome that best reflects that is leaving the EU abut staying very close. EEA membership would meet that.

    If Brexiteers want us to leave the SM and CU they should be calling for a referendum on tht. They won’t, because they’d lose.
    The main reason Leave won was immigration and sovereignty. The EEA leaves free movement unchecked and the Customs Union prevents us doing our own trade deals therefore rendering Brexit pointless which is the main reason diehard Remainers want to stay in both ie remain in the EU in all but name
    And then, having sabotaged Brexit by only doing it in name, they want to turn around and blame Brexiteers for the associated change not happening.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 45,981
    Looks like PM Di Maio and Foreign Minister Salvini
  • archer101auarcher101au Posts: 1,438
    GIN1138 said:

    Scott_P said:
    To be fair at that point the Lords hadn't implicitly set about trying to block the business of an elected government thus plunging us into a constitutional crisis...

    And also maybe some of them believed in Lords reform but didn't think the reform being proposed by Clegg was the correct reform?
    They were right. Disgraceful though the behaviour of the HoL has been, can you imagine what would have happened if they had been elected? Then they would claim they have a mandate for blocking Brexit, despite that being the exact opposite of the referendum result.

    This is the fundamental problem with bi-cameral legislatures - they are fundamentally a nonsense because you cannot have two contradictory expressions of democratic will. The people who love them are the Elite, because it becomes almost impossible for the electorate to instruct them to do anything so they can basically get elected, ignore their promises and do whatever deals they like between eachother.

    The only useful reform of the HoL would be to abolish it entirely, not reform it. Which would be a shame, because before Brexit they did useful work. But they always knew the limits of their role. Now they have signed their own death warrant.
  • JonathanDJonathanD Posts: 2,153
    Scott_P said:
    The Daily Mail won't be happy until loyal patriots are assassinating politicians in the street while shouting 'Britain First'.
  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 17,781
    Ah another Brexit bitch slapping thread

    meanwhile in the real world

    Israel bombs Iranians
    Trump and Kim cosy up
    Merkel goes wibble on the Iranian nuclear deal
    Italy gets an interesting new government
  • not_on_firenot_on_fire Posts: 2,481
    HYUFD said:

    CD13 said:

    Mr Song,

    "A reminder - the result was close. It didn't mention the Customs Union or Single Market. The Lords votes are not ignoring the result."

    Illogical.

    The vote was to leave the European Union. Can we do that by staying in the common market and the customs union? The answer is No, because that would involve taking on all the other responsibilities of EU membership. The EU can't and won't allow anything else.

    Do you deny that?.

    Erm, yes. By definition leaving the EU means we have left the EU. And you can certainly not be an EU member and be in the SM and CU, just like Norway. The referendum result was close, so the outcome that best reflects that is leaving the EU abut staying very close. EEA membership would meet that.

    If Brexiteers want us to leave the SM and CU they should be calling for a referendum on tht. They won’t, because they’d lose.
    The main reason Leave won was immigration and sovereignty. The EEA leaves free movement unchecked and the Customs Union prevents us doing our own trade deals therefore rendering Brexit pointless which is the main reason diehard Remainers want to stay in both ie remain in the EU in all but name
    The referendum ballot paper asked the electorate if they wanted to leave the EU, nothing else.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 45,981

    Charles said:

    Charles said:

    GIN1138 said:

    GIN1138 said:



    The way in which honestly held different opinions legitimately expressed have become routinely labelled xenophobic is very dangerous.


    Hmmmmmmmm
    There was never the slightest chance on untold millions of Turks descending on Britain in the foreseeable future. But Vote Leave decided to scare people into believing that. The opinion wasn’t honest, it was not legitimately expressed.
    I'm just pointing out that at this point it's a bit rich for anyone on the remain or leave side to be taking the moral high ground over insults.

    What about the little gem put about by Sir Vince Cable that all the people who voted to leave the EU were horrible old racists and the sooner they all die off the better?

    Or the idea put around a while back that old people should be deprived the vote because they won't be alive to suffer the consequences, etc.

    Things have got very, very nasty - On BOTH sides.
    The Leave campaign was won through xenophobic lies. I appreciate that Leave supporters don’t like that being brought up but it’s hardly an insult, just a fair summary of the evidence.

    Labelling someone a traitor is to label them as acting against their country’s best interests. Far right extremism is a big enough problem already. It doesn’t need a national newspaper fanning that flame still further.
    Arguably ignoring the result of a referendum - which is the motivation of many of those in the Lords who are manouvering - is against the best interests of the country.
    That's where I am - Brexit is (probably) a bad idea (but the EU's behaviour in the negotiations is giving me pause for thought) but ignoring or subverting the result of the referendum is a very much worse idea....
    The failure of Cameron's negotiation was key for me. It was clear that the EU had no interest in even attempting to address the UK's valid concerns.
    What was Cameron asking for again? I am not sure I even knew at the time. The whole thing was obvious theatre to create a narrative to convince his own side. I was surprised the Europeans were as polite about it as they were. Whatever caused Brexit, one thing it certainly isn't is the result of the failure of Cameron's negotiations.
    All Cameron should have asked for is controls on free movement from the new accession countries in in Eastern Europe for 7 years to reflect the transition controls Blair could have imposed in 2004 but refused to
  • archer101auarcher101au Posts: 1,438
    CD13 said:

    Mr fire,

    "The referendum result was close, so the outcome that best reflects that is leaving the EU abut staying very close. EEA membership would meet that."

    So if Jezza wins the GE by a couple of percent only, he will implement some Conservative policies to reflect the closeness of the result?

    And if Remain had won 52/48, would all the Remainers now be advocating dropping out of the EU and becoming members of the EEA as a middle ground? Yeah, right.
  • Richard_TyndallRichard_Tyndall Posts: 15,212

    Another factor in the failure of the Iran deal:

    The sources familiar with the debate said Trump wanted a separate agreement with the other main signatories of the original deal — France, Britain, Germany, China and Russia. But Berlin said the agreement would have to be submitted to a European Union body for approval, and this appeared to stall the effort, they said.

    https://www.reuters.com/article/us-iran-nuclear-diplomacy/europe-licks-wounds-as-saudi-arabia-and-israel-hail-trump-on-iran-idUSKBN1IA38C

    Which EU body & why?

    I don't think you can blame the EU for that one at all. To submit the new agreement on Iran to any EU body there would first have to be some suggestion from the US as to what that agreement would be and in spite of his claims, Trump has failed to come up with anything at all. This is entirely down to the US and Trump. The Europeans, whether through the three signatories or the EU itself, are just trying to salvage something and stop a bad situation getting even worse.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 16,933
    HYUFD said:

    Looks like PM Di Maio and Foreign Minister Salvini
    Italian bond markets could get interesting...
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 45,981
    edited May 10

    HYUFD said:

    CD13 said:

    Mr Song,

    "A reminder - the result was close. It didn't mention the Customs Union or Single Market. The Lords votes are not ignoring the result."

    Illogical.

    The vote was to leave the European Union. Can we do that by staying in the common market and the customs union? The answer is No, because that would involve taking on all the other responsibilities of EU membership. The EU can't and won't allow anything else.

    Do you deny that?.

    Erm, yes. By definition leaving the EU means we have left the EU. And you can certainly not be an EU member and be in the SM and CU, just like Norway. The referendum result was close, so the outcome that best reflects that is leaving the EU abut staying very close. EEA membership would meet that.

    If Brexiteers want us to leave the SM and CU they should be calling for a referendum on tht. They won’t, because they’d lose.
    The main reason Leave won was immigration and sovereignty. The EEA leaves free movement unchecked and the Customs Union prevents us doing our own trade deals therefore rendering Brexit pointless which is the main reason diehard Remainers want to stay in both ie remain in the EU in all but name
    The referendum ballot paper asked the electorate if they wanted to leave the EU, nothing else.
    All the polling which asked why the 52% who voted Leave did so found it was was sovereignty and immigration.

    Staying in the single market with ECJ jurisdiction, leaving free movement in place and staying in the Customs Union therefore effectively disrespect the Leave vote

    http://lordashcroftpolls.com/2016/06/how-the-united-kingdom-voted-and-why/
  • archer101auarcher101au Posts: 1,438
    Scott_P said:
    What, a country with its own trade policy, own customs, own tariffs and own immigration policy - NEVER BEEN TRIED?
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 45,446
    Mr. F, indeed. It would've released the sceptic pressure and allowed us to register and have recognised our dislike of the degree of integration and direction of travel (as well as actually fulfilling manifesto promises [such as leaving the customs union/single market...]).

    Instead, manifesto promises were reneged upon and we were signed up to Lisbon.

    Now they're trying the same trick. Leaving, but in name only. Increasing resentment for the future.
  • GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 2,799
    edited May 10
    o

    Ah another Brexit bitch slapping thread

    meanwhile in the real world

    Israel bombs Iranians
    Trump and Kim cosy up
    Merkel goes wibble on the Iranian nuclear deal
    Italy gets an interesting new government

    You forgot 92-yr-old Mahathir in Malaysia.
  • GIN1138GIN1138 Posts: 11,873
    edited May 10

    HYUFD said:

    CD13 said:

    Mr Song,

    "A reminder - the result was close. It didn't mention the Customs Union or Single Market. The Lords votes are not ignoring the result."

    Illogical.

    The vote was to leave the European Union. Can we do that by staying in the common market and the customs union? The answer is No, because that would involve taking on all the other responsibilities of EU membership. The EU can't and won't allow anything else.

    Do you deny that?.

    Erm, yes. By definition leaving the EU means we have left the EU. And you can certainly not be an EU member and be in the SM and CU, just like Norway. The referendum result was close, so the outcome that best reflects that is leaving the EU abut staying very close. EEA membership would meet that.

    If Brexiteers want us to leave the SM and CU they should be calling for a referendum on tht. They won’t, because they’d lose.
    The main reason Leave won was immigration and sovereignty. The EEA leaves free movement unchecked and the Customs Union prevents us doing our own trade deals therefore rendering Brexit pointless which is the main reason diehard Remainers want to stay in both ie remain in the EU in all but name
    The referendum ballot paper asked the electorate if they wanted to leave the EU, nothing else.
    However Cameron was clear that leaving the EU meant leaving the single market and customs Union and even sent out junk mail to every home in the UK stating so...
  • not_on_firenot_on_fire Posts: 2,481

    Scott_P said:
    What, a country with its own trade policy, own customs, own tariffs and own immigration policy - NEVER BEEN TRIED?
    Ripping up existing trade deals in the belief that a much smaller economy can somehow renegotiate an equal or better deal - yep, that’s never been tried, for very good reasons.
  • GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 2,799
    GIN1138 said:

    HYUFD said:

    CD13 said:

    Mr Song,

    "A reminder - the result was close. It didn't mention the Customs Union or Single Market. The Lords votes are not ignoring the result."

    Illogical.

    The vote was to leave the European Union. Can we do that by staying in the common market and the customs union? The answer is No, because that would involve taking on all the other responsibilities of EU membership. The EU can't and won't allow anything else.

    Do you deny that?.

    Erm, yes. By definition leaving the EU means we have left the EU. And you can certainly not be an EU member and be in the SM and CU, just like Norway. The referendum result was close, so the outcome that best reflects that is leaving the EU abut staying very close. EEA membership would meet that.

    If Brexiteers want us to leave the SM and CU they should be calling for a referendum on tht. They won’t, because they’d lose.
    The main reason Leave won was immigration and sovereignty. The EEA leaves free movement unchecked and the Customs Union prevents us doing our own trade deals therefore rendering Brexit pointless which is the main reason diehard Remainers want to stay in both ie remain in the EU in all but name
    The referendum ballot paper asked the electorate if they wanted to leave the EU, nothing else.
    However Cameron was clear that leaving the EU meant leaving the EU and customs Union and even sent out junk mail to every home in the UK stating so...
    Cameron lost, you won, suck it up.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 45,981

    HYUFD said:

    Looks like PM Di Maio and Foreign Minister Salvini
    Italian bond markets could get interesting...
    Perhaps but Di Maio is basically the Italian Trudeau or Macron or Kurz or Tsipras and even Tsipras fell largely into line eventually
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 16,933
    Brexit is literally inducing madness. Tory MPs who have blocked reform of the Lords, since, oh I don't know, 1910, suddenly in favour.
  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 17,781

    o

    Ah another Brexit bitch slapping thread

    meanwhile in the real world

    Israel bombs Iranians
    Trump and Kim cosy up
    Merkel goes wibble on the Iranian nuclear deal
    Italy gets an interesting new government

    You forgot 92-yr-old Mahathir in Malaysia.
    an astonishing feat
  • GIN1138GIN1138 Posts: 11,873
    edited May 10

    GIN1138 said:

    HYUFD said:

    CD13 said:

    Mr Song,

    "A reminder - the result was close. It didn't mention the Customs Union or Single Market. The Lords votes are not ignoring the result."

    Illogical.

    The vote was to leave the European Union. Can we do that by staying in the common market and the customs union? The answer is No, because that would involve taking on all the other responsibilities of EU membership. The EU can't and won't allow anything else.

    Do you deny that?.

    Erm, yes. By definition leaving the EU means we have left the EU. And you can certainly not be an EU member and be in the SM and CU, just like Norway. The referendum result was close, so the outcome that best reflects that is leaving the EU abut staying very close. EEA membership would meet that.

    If Brexiteers want us to leave the SM and CU they should be calling for a referendum on tht. They won’t, because they’d lose.
    The main reason Leave won was immigration and sovereignty. The EEA leaves free movement unchecked and the Customs Union prevents us doing our own trade deals therefore rendering Brexit pointless which is the main reason diehard Remainers want to stay in both ie remain in the EU in all but name
    The referendum ballot paper asked the electorate if they wanted to leave the EU, nothing else.
    However Cameron was clear that leaving the EU meant leaving the EU and customs Union and even sent out junk mail to every home in the UK stating so...
    Cameron lost, you won, suck it up.
    We're trying but when the forces of remain are blocking us at every turn what can you do...
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 45,981
    Scott_P said:
    He won't of course, notice none of these Labour sources are Corbynistas and Corbyn will not risk losing Labour Leave voters or the ECJ overruling a future Corbyn government's policy
  • not_on_firenot_on_fire Posts: 2,481

    CD13 said:

    Mr fire,

    "The referendum result was close, so the outcome that best reflects that is leaving the EU abut staying very close. EEA membership would meet that."

    So if Jezza wins the GE by a couple of percent only, he will implement some Conservative policies to reflect the closeness of the result?

    And if Remain had won 52/48, would all the Remainers now be advocating dropping out of the EU and becoming members of the EEA as a middle ground? Yeah, right.
    No, because, obviously, Remainng would have won. It would be just as wrong to “interpret” such a result as an endorsement for further integration as it is for those who claim a Leave vote means we must leave the CU/SM
  • Richard_TyndallRichard_Tyndall Posts: 15,212

    Elliot said:

    The Daily Mail should stop pussy footing around. Just start a campaign to install Rees-Mogg as a kind of Lord Protector. It's the logical consequence of what it's been raving about for months.

    The Daily Mail is giving every impression of protesting too much. As the reality of Brexit begins to dawn, the Brexiteer search for scapegoats is intensifying. The fact is that what voters were promised is undeliverable. The imperative now is to find people to blame for that. It can be anyone, as long as it is not those who are truly to blame - the ones who never bothered to learn what leaving actually entailed, how complicated and time-consuming it would be and the compromises that would be necessary to make it economically viable.

    Remainers do everything they do to make a Brexit in Name Only, insisting that you only need to leave in name to fulfil the referendum result, then blame Brexiteers for not fulfilling the actual benefits. Of course you can't get the benefits of other trade deals if Remainers win and keep us in the EU customs union.... Remainers own that if it happens.

    Totally agree. The good news is that staying in the CU - or, more likely, a version of it - would be far better for the UK economy than any number of far-distant trade deals dictated to us from the other side of the table.

    Nope it would be extremely bad for us. We cannot stay in 'the' Customs Union as it is an intrinsic art of EU membership. If we end up in 'a' customs union we find ourselves in the same position as Turkey where we are forced to allow tariff free imports from non EU countries but cannot have the same tariff free exports to them. It is a very, very stupid option advanced only by those who lack understanding.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 45,981

    Ah another Brexit bitch slapping thread

    meanwhile in the real world

    Israel bombs Iranians
    Trump and Kim cosy up
    Merkel goes wibble on the Iranian nuclear deal
    Italy gets an interesting new government

    The new Italian government of Five Star and the League though will be much more sympathetic to Brexit UK than the last centre left government was
  • logical_songlogical_song Posts: 6,290

    CD13 said:

    Mr Song,

    "A reminder - the result was close. It didn't mention the Customs Union or Single Market. The Lords votes are not ignoring the result."

    Illogical.

    The vote was to leave the European Union. Can we do that by staying in the common market and the customs union? The answer is No, because that would involve taking on all the other responsibilities of EU membership. The EU can't and won't allow anything else.

    Do you deny that?.

    Erm, yes. By definition leaving the EU means we have left the EU. And you can certainly not be an EU member and be in the SM and CU, just like Norway. The referendum result was close, so the outcome that best reflects that is leaving the EU abut staying very close. EEA membership would meet that.

    If Brexiteers want us to leave the SM and CU they should be calling for a referendum on tht. They won’t, because they’d lose.
    Thanks for demolishing CD13's points while I was away.
    The referendum asked a very simplistic question and Brexiteers have been 'interpreting' or spinning it ever since Their Lordships have a constitutional duty to amend legislation as they see fit - this is the UK parliament 'taking back control'.
  • CD13CD13 Posts: 4,711
    To be fair to the EU, a unitary state rather than a loose and wobbly federation makes a lot of political sense. Some people want that and I respect that view.

    But it's never been a majority so they've been trying to bring it in gradually, pretending it isn't really happening. "Shush, you frogs, the water isn't really being warmed."

    So of course, you'll get reassuring platitudes. 'If serious changes are planned, you'll get a say', but that doesn't happen. Cameron broke ranks and received a shock. That's the problem with echo chambers.

    It was only a 52 - 48 majority, so we don't need to take the pan off the gas. Best keep it warm, just in case.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 68,878
    Good morning my fellow traitors and saboteurs.

    You’ll be all delighted to know my Sunday piece will be about House of Lords reform and AV.

    On topic I hope you all took Henry’s advice on this market.
  • Richard_TyndallRichard_Tyndall Posts: 15,212

    Elliot said:

    The Daily Mail should stop pussy footing around. Just start a campaign to install Rees-Mogg as a kind of Lord Protector. It's the logical consequence of what it's been raving about for months.

    The Daily Mail is giving every impression of protesting too much. As the reality of Brexit begins to dawn, the Brexiteer search for scapegoats is intensifying. The fact is that what voters were promised is undeliverable. The imperative now is to find people to blame for that. It can be anyone, as long as it is not those who are truly to blame - the ones who never bothered to learn what leaving actually entailed, how complicated and time-consuming it would be and the compromises that would be necessary to make it economically viable.

    Remainers do everything they do to make a Brexit in Name Only, insisting that you only need to leave in name to fulfil the referendum result, then blame Brexiteers for not fulfilling the actual benefits. Of course you can't get the benefits of other trade deals if Remainers win and keep us in the EU customs union.... Remainers own that if it happens.
    The deal on the Customs Union is obvious. What I can't understand is why so much heat is being generated about it now.

    Leavers, through woeful lack of preparation, have no real alternative to offer to continued membership of a customs union for now. So the UK will stay in it on a renewable basis. That will give Leavers the opportunity to work with the Ministry of Magic to find a way to solve the problem in a few years' time.

    Perhaps the heat is being generated because the Leave hierarchy are so furious with themselves for being so incompetent.

    Lazy, more like. They could not be arsed to find out how the EU works, how the Customs Union works or how trade deals are done. They winged it, convinced themselves the UK held all the cards and as a result we are where we are.

    I am afraid the lazy ones are those like yourself who are advancing supposed solutions without understanding the consequences.
  • Scott_PScott_P Posts: 38,678

    It is a very, very stupid option advanced only by those who lack understanding.

    Brexit in a nutshell
  • not_on_firenot_on_fire Posts: 2,481
    GIN1138 said:

    GIN1138 said:

    HYUFD said:

    CD13 said:

    Mr Song,

    "A reminder - the result was close. It didn't mention the Customs Union or Single Market. The Lords votes are not ignoring the result."

    Illogical.

    The vote was to leave the European Union. Can we do that by staying in the common market and the customs union? The answer is No, because that would involve taking on all the other responsibilities of EU membership. The EU can't and won't allow anything else.

    Do you deny that?.

    Erm, yes. By definition leaving the EU means we have left the EU. And you can certainly not be an EU member and be in the SM and CU, just like Norway. The referendum result was close, so the outcome that best reflects that is leaving the EU abut staying very close. EEA membership would meet that.

    If Brexiteers want us to leave the SM and CU they should be calling for a referendum on tht. They won’t, because they’d lose.
    The main reason Leave won was immigration and sovereignty. The EEA leaves free movement unchecked and the Customs Union prevents us doing our own trade deals therefore rendering Brexit pointless which is the main reason diehard Remainers want to stay in both ie remain in the EU in all but name
    The referendum ballot paper asked the electorate if they wanted to leave the EU, nothing else.
    However Cameron was clear that leaving the EU meant leaving the EU and customs Union and even sent out junk mail to every home in the UK stating so...
    Cameron lost, you won, suck it up.
    We're trying but when the forces of remain are blocking us at every turn what can you do...
    I dunno, maybe accept you are trying to impose a minority view of Brexit on the majority and that perhaps a version that has greater consensus should be tried?
  • Richard_TyndallRichard_Tyndall Posts: 15,212

    CD13 said:

    Mr Meeks,

    The customs union makes sense as long as it doesn't hobble us from us making trade deals with other countries. We are a free and independent nation, surely?

    We are a mid-sized nation that has historically punched above its economic weight thanks to factors that are no longer really present (Empire, military etc.). In the modern globalised economy it is best to be part of a large trade bloc. The concept of an independent nation state is a very 20th century concept and is increasingly redundant.
    Wrong in every respect.
  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 17,781
    HYUFD said:

    Ah another Brexit bitch slapping thread

    meanwhile in the real world

    Israel bombs Iranians
    Trump and Kim cosy up
    Merkel goes wibble on the Iranian nuclear deal
    Italy gets an interesting new government

    The new Italian government of Five Star and the League though will be much more sympathetic to Brexit UK than the last centre left government was
    well good luck to them

    the EU needs a functioning opposition
  • GIN1138GIN1138 Posts: 11,873
    edited May 10

    GIN1138 said:

    GIN1138 said:

    HYUFD said:

    CD13 said:

    Mr Song,

    "A reminder - the result was close. It didn't mention the Customs Union or Single Market. The Lords votes are not ignoring the result."

    Illogical.

    The vote was to leave the European Union. Can we do that by staying in the common market and the customs union? The answer is No, because that would involve taking on all the other responsibilities of EU membership. The EU can't and won't allow anything else.

    Do you deny that?.

    Erm, yes. By definition leaving the EU means we have left the EU. And you can certainly not be an EU member and be in the SM and CU, just like Norway. The referendum result was close, so the outcome that best reflects that is leaving the EU abut staying very close. EEA membership would meet that.

    If Brexiteers want us to leave the SM and CU they should be calling for a referendum on tht. They won’t, because they’d lose.
    The main reason Leave won was immigration and sovereignty. The EEA leaves free movement unchecked and the Customs Union prevents us doing our own trade deals therefore rendering Brexit pointless which is the main reason diehard Remainers want to stay in both ie remain in the EU in all but name
    The referendum ballot paper asked the electorate if they wanted to leave the EU, nothing else.
    However Cameron was clear that leaving the EU meant leaving the EU and customs Union and even sent out junk mail to every home in the UK stating so...
    Cameron lost, you won, suck it up.
    We're trying but when the forces of remain are blocking us at every turn what can you do...
    I dunno, maybe accept you are trying to impose a minority view of Brexit on the majority and that perhaps a version that has greater consensus should be tried?
    Doubt it. "The game" is to stop Brexit and force us to remain in the EU. by any means possible... As their Lordship's have been at pains to make clear.
  • Ishmael_ZIshmael_Z Posts: 5,891

    Elliot said:

    The Daily Mail should stop pussy footing around. Just start a campaign to install Rees-Mogg as a kind of Lord Protector. It's the logical consequence of what it's been raving about for months.

    The Daily Mail is giving every impression of protesting too much. As the reality of Brexit begins to dawn, the Brexiteer search for scapegoats is intensifying. The fact is that what voters were promised is undeliverable. The imperative now is to find people to blame for that. It can be anyone, as long as it is not those who are truly to blame - the ones who never bothered to learn what leaving actually entailed, how complicated and time-consuming it would be and the compromises that would be necessary to make it economically viable.

    Remainers do everything they do to make a Brexit in Name Only, insisting that you only need to leave in name to fulfil the referendum result, then blame Brexiteers for not fulfilling the actual benefits. Of course you can't get the benefits of other trade deals if Remainers win and keep us in the EU customs union.... Remainers own that if it happens.
    The deal on the Customs Union is obvious. What I can't understand is why so much heat is being generated about it now.

    Leavers, through woeful lack of preparation, have no real alternative to offer to continued membership of a customs union for now. So the UK will stay in it on a renewable basis. That will give Leavers the opportunity to work with the Ministry of Magic to find a way to solve the problem in a few years' time.

    Perhaps the heat is being generated because the Leave hierarchy are so furious with themselves for being so incompetent.

    Lazy, more like. They could not be arsed to find out how the EU works, how the Customs Union works or how trade deals are done. They winged it, convinced themselves the UK held all the cards and as a result we are where we are.

    Correct, but the masterclass in OE I'm too clever to need to work hard can't-be-arsedness was undoubtedly given by D Cameron. The problem was that both sides knew they could do whatever the fck they liked, because they both knew Remain was going to win anyway.
  • AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 21,334
    GIN1138 said:

    GIN1138 said:

    GIN1138 said:

    HYUFD said:

    CD13 said:

    Mr Song,

    "A reminder - the result was close. It didn't mention the Customs Union or Single Market. The Lords votes are not ignoring the result."

    Illogical.

    The vote was to leave the European Union. Can we do that by staying in the common market and the customs union? The answer is No, because that would involve taking on all the other responsibilities of EU membership. The EU can't and won't allow anything else.

    Do you deny that?.

    Erm, yes. By definition leaving the EU means we have left the EU. And you can certainly not be an EU member and be in the SM and CU, just like Norway. The referendum result was close, so the outcome that best reflects that is leaving the EU abut staying very close. EEA membership would meet that.

    If Brexiteers want us to leave the SM and CU they should be calling for a referendum on tht. They won’t, because they’d lose.
    The main reason Leave won was immigration and sovereignty. The EEA leaves free movement unchecked and the Customs Union prevents us doing our own trade deals therefore rendering Brexit pointless which is the main reason diehard Remainers want to stay in both ie remain in the EU in all but name
    The referendum ballot paper asked the electorate if they wanted to leave the EU, nothing else.
    However Cameron was clear that leaving the EU meant leaving the EU and customs Union and even sent out junk mail to every home in the UK stating so...
    Cameron lost, you won, suck it up.
    We're trying but when the forces of remain are blocking us at every turn what can you do...
    I dunno, maybe accept you are trying to impose a minority view of Brexit on the majority and that perhaps a version that has greater consensus should be tried?
    Doubt it. "The game" is to stop Brexit and force us to remain in the EU. by any means possible... As their Lordship's have been at pains to make clear.
    Great claims require great proof. Paranoid conspiracy theories are a symptom of the problem not a diagnosis.
  • Richard_TyndallRichard_Tyndall Posts: 15,212

    GIN1138 said:

    HYUFD said:

    CD13 said:

    Mr Song,

    "A reminder - the result was close. It didn't mention the Customs Union or Single Market. The Lords votes are not ignoring the result."

    Illogical.

    The vote was to leave the European Union. Can we do that by staying in the common market and the customs union? The answer is No, because that would involve taking on all the other responsibilities of EU membership. The EU can't and won't allow anything else.

    Do you deny that?.

    Erm, yes. By definition leaving the EU means we have left the EU. And you can certainly not be an EU member and be in the SM and CU, just like Norway. The referendum result was close, so the outcome that best reflects that is leaving the EU abut staying very close. EEA membership would meet that.

    If Brexiteers want us to leave the SM and CU they should be calling for a referendum on tht. They won’t, because they’d lose.
    The main reason Leave won was immigration and sovereignty. The EEA leaves free movement unchecked and the Customs Union prevents us doing our own trade deals therefore rendering Brexit pointless which is the main reason diehard Remainers want to stay in both ie remain in the EU in all but name
    The referendum ballot paper asked the electorate if they wanted to leave the EU, nothing else.
    However Cameron was clear that leaving the EU meant leaving the EU and customs Union and even sent out junk mail to every home in the UK stating so...
    Cameron lost, you won, suck it up.
    LOL. Remoaners denying their own leadership three times before the cock crows.
  • hunchmanhunchman Posts: 2,591

    Elliot said:

    The Daily Mail should stop pussy footing around. Just start a campaign to install Rees-Mogg as a kind of Lord Protector. It's the logical consequence of what it's been raving about for months.

    The Daily Mail is giving every impression of protesting too much. As the reality of Brexit begins to dawn, the Brexiteer search for scapegoats is intensifying. The fact is that what voters were promised is undeliverable. The imperative now is to find people to blame for that. It can be anyone, as long as it is not those who are truly to blame - the ones who never bothered to learn what leaving actually entailed, how complicated and time-consuming it would be and the compromises that would be necessary to make it economically viable.

    Remainers do everything they do to make a Brexit in Name Only, insisting that you only need to leave in name to fulfil the referendum result, then blame Brexiteers for not fulfilling the actual benefits. Of course you can't get the benefits of other trade deals if Remainers win and keep us in the EU customs union.... Remainers own that if it happens.

    Totally agree. The good news is that staying in the CU - or, more likely, a version of it - would be far better for the UK economy than any number of far-distant trade deals dictated to us from the other side of the table.

    Nope it would be extremely bad for us. We cannot stay in 'the' Customs Union as it is an intrinsic art of EU membership. If we end up in 'a' customs union we find ourselves in the same position as Turkey where we are forced to allow tariff free imports from non EU countries but cannot have the same tariff free exports to them. It is a very, very stupid option advanced only by those who lack understanding.
    Totally agreed mr tyndall. The EU is in first order decline and our trade with them is declining in importance. We need free trade outside the CU to take advantage of the rising sun called China and India in the east. Meeks, William Glenn et al are stuck in a time warp from the past. Time to move on.
  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 17,781
    Ishmael_Z said:

    Elliot said:

    The Daily Mail should stop pussy footing around. Just start a campaign to install Rees-Mogg as a kind of Lord Protector. It's the logical consequence of what it's been raving about for months.

    The Daily Mail is giving every impression of protesting too much. As the reality of Brexit begins to dawn, the Brexiteer search for scapegoats is intensifying. The fact is that what voters were promised is undeliverable. The imperative now is to find people to blame for that. It can be anyone, as long as it is not those who are truly to blame - the ones who never bothered to learn what leaving actually entailed, how complicated and time-consuming it would be and the compromises that would be necessary to make it economically viable.

    Remainers do everything t generated because the Leave hierarchy are so furious with themselves for being so incompetent.

    Lazy, more like. They could not be arsed to find out how the EU works, how the Customs Union works or how trade deals are done. They winged it, convinced themselves the UK held all the cards and as a result we are where we are.

    Correct, but the masterclass in OE I'm too clever to need to work hard can't-be-arsedness was undoubtedly given by D Cameron. The problem was that both sides knew they could do whatever the fck they liked, because they both knew Remain was going to win anyway.
    Cameron is something of a tragic figure, a man with a lot of potential who spent his political capital unwisely.

    looking at fuming Ed yesterday it struck me what a total waste of time the whole Leveson farrago was. And yet this was something which ate up a year of Camerons premiership and which will be lucky to be a historical footnote.

    Aside from EUref which I suspect he'd rather forget I struggle to think of much he can call his legacy. Gay marriage perhaps, but otherwise sad.
  • Richard_TyndallRichard_Tyndall Posts: 15,212

    CD13 said:

    Mr fire,

    "The referendum result was close, so the outcome that best reflects that is leaving the EU abut staying very close. EEA membership would meet that."

    So if Jezza wins the GE by a couple of percent only, he will implement some Conservative policies to reflect the closeness of the result?

    And if Remain had won 52/48, would all the Remainers now be advocating dropping out of the EU and becoming members of the EEA as a middle ground? Yeah, right.
    No, because, obviously, Remainng would have won. It would be just as wrong to “interpret” such a result as an endorsement for further integration as it is for those who claim a Leave vote means we must leave the CU/SM
    But that is exactly what it would have been and how the EU would have interpreted it. This is one of the big lies at the heart of the Remain campaign - the idea that the EU would or could remain fixed in its current form. It was never going to be the case and a vote for Remain would have been a vote for further integration. At least some Remaniacs on here are honest enough to admit that.
  • Richard_TyndallRichard_Tyndall Posts: 15,212

    CD13 said:

    Mr Song,

    "A reminder - the result was close. It didn't mention the Customs Union or Single Market. The Lords votes are not ignoring the result."

    Illogical.

    The vote was to leave the European Union. Can we do that by staying in the common market and the customs union? The answer is No, because that would involve taking on all the other responsibilities of EU membership. The EU can't and won't allow anything else.

    Do you deny that?.

    Erm, yes. By definition leaving the EU means we have left the EU. And you can certainly not be an EU member and be in the SM and CU, just like Norway. The referendum result was close, so the outcome that best reflects that is leaving the EU abut staying very close. EEA membership would meet that.

    If Brexiteers want us to leave the SM and CU they should be calling for a referendum on tht. They won’t, because they’d lose.
    Thanks for demolishing CD13's points while I was away.
    The referendum asked a very simplistic question and Brexiteers have been 'interpreting' or spinning it ever since Their Lordships have a constitutional duty to amend legislation as they see fit - this is the UK parliament 'taking back control'.
    You really shouldn't thank someone who has such a poor grasp of basic facts. It just embarrasses your side.
  • Richard_TyndallRichard_Tyndall Posts: 15,212
    Scott_P said:

    It is a very, very stupid option advanced only by those who lack understanding.

    Brexit in a nutshell
    No dear boy. The Remain case in a nutshell. Do keep up. I know it is difficult for you since you have never had an original thought in your life but do try.
  • GIN1138GIN1138 Posts: 11,873

    GIN1138 said:

    GIN1138 said:

    GIN1138 said:

    HYUFD said:

    CD13 said:

    Mr Song,

    "A reminder - the result was close. It didn't mention the Customs Union or Single Market. The Lords votes are not ignoring the result."

    Illogical.

    The vote was to leave the European Union. Can we do that by staying in the common market and the customs union? The answer is No, because that would involve taking on all the other responsibilities of EU membership. The EU can't and won't allow anything else.

    Do you deny that?.

    Erm, yes. By definition leaving the EU means we have left the EU. And you can certainly not be an EU member and be in the SM and CU, just like Norway. The referendum result was close, so the outcome that best reflects that is leaving the EU abut staying very close. EEA membership would meet that.

    If Brexiteers want us to leave the SM and CU they should be calling for a referendum on tht. They won’t, because they’d lose.
    The main reason Leave won was immigration and sovereignty. The EEA leaves free movement unchecked and the Customs Union prevents us doing our own trade deals therefore rendering Brexit pointless which is the main reason diehard Remainers want to stay in both ie remain in the EU in all but name
    The referendum ballot paper asked the electorate if they wanted to leave the EU, nothing else.
    However Cameron was clear that leaving the EU meant leaving the EU and customs Union and even sent out junk mail to every home in the UK stating so...
    Cameron lost, you won, suck it up.
    We're trying but when the forces of remain are blocking us at every turn what can you do...
    I dunno, maybe accept you are trying to impose a minority view of Brexit on the majority and that perhaps a version that has greater consensus should be tried?
    Doubt it. "The game" is to stop Brexit and force us to remain in the EU. by any means possible... As their Lordship's have been at pains to make clear.
    Great claims require great proof. Paranoid conspiracy theories are a symptom of the problem not a diagnosis.
    Lord Helsetine is even record as saying a Corbyn government would be a price worth paying to stop Brexit.

    It doesn't take a genius to work out what's going on....
  • AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 21,334
    GIN1138 said:

    GIN1138 said:

    GIN1138 said:

    GIN1138 said:

    HYUFD said:

    CD13 said:

    Mr Song,

    "A reminder - the result was close. It didn't mention the Customs Union or Single Market. The Lords votes are not ignoring the result."

    Illogical.

    The vote was to leave the European Union. Can we do that by staying in the common market and the customs union? The answer is No, because that would involve taking on all the other responsibilities of EU membership. The EU can't and won't allow anything else.

    Do you deny that?.

    Erm, yes. By definition leaving the EU means we have left the EU. And you can certainly not be an EU member and be in the SM and CU, just like Norway. The referendum result was close, so the outcome that best reflects that is leaving the EU abut staying very close. EEA membership would meet that.

    If Brexiteers want us to leave the SM and CU they should be calling for a referendum on tht. They won’t, because they’d lose.
    The main reason Leave won was immigration and sovereignty. The EEA leaves free movement unchecked and the Customs Union prevents us doing our own trade deals therefore rendering Brexit pointless which is the main reason diehard Remainers want to stay in both ie remain in the EU in all but name
    The referendum ballot paper asked the electorate if they wanted to leave the EU, nothing else.
    However Cameron was clear that leaving the EU meant leaving the EU and customs Union and even sent out junk mail to every home in the UK stating so...
    Cameron lost, you won, suck it up.
    We're trying but when the forces of remain are blocking us at every turn what can you do...
    I dunno, maybe accept you are trying to impose a minority view of Brexit on the majority and that perhaps a version that has greater consensus should be tried?
    Doubt it. "The game" is to stop Brexit and force us to remain in the EU. by any means possible... As their Lordship's have been at pains to make clear.
    Great claims require great proof. Paranoid conspiracy theories are a symptom of the problem not a diagnosis.
    Lord Helsetine is even record as saying a Corbyn government would be a price worth paying to stop Brexit.

    It doesn't take a genius to work out what's going on....
    So, not a scintilla of evidence, just paranoid ravings.
  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 17,781

    GIN1138 said:

    GIN1138 said:

    GIN1138 said:

    GIN1138 said:

    HYUFD said:

    CD13 said:

    Mr Song,

    "A reminder - the result was close. It didn't mention the Customs Union or Single Market. The Lords votes are not ignoring the result."

    Illogical.

    The vote was to leave the European Union. Can we do that by staying in the common market and the customs union? The answer is No, because that would involve taking on all the other responsibilities of EU membership. The EU can't and won't allow anything else.

    Do you deny that?.

    Erm, yes. By definition leaving the EU means we have left the EU. And you can certainly not be an EU member and be in the SM and CU, just like Norway. The referendum result was close, so the outcome that best reflects that is leaving the EU abut staying very close. EEA membership would meet that.

    If Brexiteers want us to leave the SM and CU they should be calling for a referendum on tht. They won’t, because they’d lose.
    The main reason Leave won was immigration and sovereignty. The EEA leaves free movement unchecked and the Customs Union prevents us doing our own trade deals therefore rendering Brexit pointless which is the main reason diehard Remainers want to stay in both ie remain in the EU in all but name
    The referendum ballot paper asked the electorate if they wanted to leave the EU, nothing else.
    However Cameron was clear that leaving the EU meant leaving the EU and customs Union and even sent out junk mail to every home in the UK stating so...
    Cameron lost, you won, suck it up.
    We're trying but when the forces of remain are blocking us at every turn what can you do...
    I dunno, maybe accept you are trying to impose a minority view of Brexit on the majority and that perhaps a version that has greater consensus should be tried?
    Doubt it. "The game" is to stop Brexit and force us to remain in the EU. by any means possible... As their Lordship's have been at pains to make clear.
    Great claims require great proof. Paranoid conspiracy theories are a symptom of the problem not a diagnosis.
    Lord Helsetine is even record as saying a Corbyn government would be a price worth paying to stop Brexit.

    It doesn't take a genius to work out what's going on....
    So, not a scintilla of evidence, just paranoid ravings.
    pot and kettle spring to mind
  • Richard_TyndallRichard_Tyndall Posts: 15,212

    GIN1138 said:

    GIN1138 said:

    GIN1138 said:

    GIN1138 said:

    HYUFD said:

    CD13 said:

    Mr Song,

    "A reminder - the result was close. It didn't mention the Customs Union or Single Market. The Lords votes are not ignoring the result."

    Illogical.

    The vote was to leave the European Union. Can we do that by staying in the common market and the customs union? The answer is No, because that would involve taking on all the other responsibilities of EU membership. The EU can't and won't allow anything else.

    Do you deny that?.

    Erm, yes. By definition leaving the EU means we have left the EU. And you can certainly not be an EU member and be in the SM and CU, just like Norway. The referendum result was close, so the outcome that best reflects that is leaving the EU abut staying very close. EEA membership would meet that.

    If Brexiteers want us to leave the SM and CU they should be calling for a referendum on tht. They won’t, because they’d lose.
    The main reason Leave won was immigration and sovereignty. The EEA leaves free movement unchecked and the Customs Union prevents us doing our own trade deals therefore rendering Brexit pointless which is the main reason diehard Remainers want to stay in both ie remain in the EU in all but name
    The referendum ballot paper asked the electorate if they wanted to leave the EU, nothing else.
    However Cameron was clear that leaving the EU meant leaving the EU and customs Union and even sent out junk mail to every home in the UK stating so...
    Cameron lost, you won, suck it up.
    We're trying but when the forces of remain are blocking us at every turn what can you do...
    I dunno, maybe accept you are trying to impose a minority view of Brexit on the majority and that perhaps a version that has greater consensus should be tried?
    Doubt it. "The game" is to stop Brexit and force us to remain in the EU. by any means possible... As their Lordship's have been at pains to make clear.
    Great claims require great proof. Paranoid conspiracy theories are a symptom of the problem not a diagnosis.
    Lord Helsetine is even record as saying a Corbyn government would be a price worth paying to stop Brexit.

    It doesn't take a genius to work out what's going on....
    So, not a scintilla of evidence, just paranoid ravings.
    No we leave the deluded ravings to you Mr Meeks.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 68,878
    edited May 10
    GIN1138 said:

    Lord Helsetine is even record as saying a Corbyn government would be a price worth paying to stop Brexit.

    It doesn't take a genius to work out what's going on....

    Lord Heseltine is a great example of the paranoia of the Leavers.

    This week he was accused of voting against Brexit because he worked for the EU and wanted to protect his EU pensions. A few problems with this theory

    i) Lord Heseltine never worked for the EU so there’s no EU pension to protect.

    ii) The Govt has agreed to honour all EU pensions after Brexit so Stay or Leave pensions will be honoured.

    iii) Can someone explain to me why Lord Heseltine who is worth north of £200 million would be interested in a piddling little pension.

    Perhaps he is voting in line with his views which have been consistent for over 50 years.
  • Ishmael_ZIshmael_Z Posts: 5,891
    edited May 10



    Cameron is something of a tragic figure, a man with a lot of potential who spent his political capital unwisely.

    looking at fuming Ed yesterday it struck me what a total waste of time the whole Leveson farrago was. And yet this was something which ate up a year of Camerons premiership and which will be lucky to be a historical footnote.

    Aside from EUref which I suspect he'd rather forget I struggle to think of much he can call his legacy. Gay marriage perhaps, but otherwise sad.

    He singled out gay marriage, but that was coming anyway. My guess is that in twenty years time if you ask people who introduced it, most will think it was Blair.

    His anecdote about the copper on the door at Number 10 thanking himfor gay marriage was classic old Etonian and High Tory - he thought in terms of conferring benefits, not on the country as a whole, but on his own feudal supporters. It was an update on one of Cameron's grandfather's gamekeepers tugging his forelock and humbly thanking him for installing an indoor toilet in his tied cottage.
  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 17,781

    GIN1138 said:

    Lord Helsetine is even record as saying a Corbyn government would be a price worth paying to stop Brexit.

    It doesn't take a genius to work out what's going on....

    Lord Heseltine is a great example of the paranoia of the Leavers.

    This week he was accused of voting against Brexit because he worked for the EU and wanted to protect his EU pensions. A few problems with this theory

    i) Lord Heseltine never worked for the EU so there’s no EU pension to protect.

    ii) The Govt has agreed to honour all EU pensions after Brexit so Stay or Leave pensions will be honoured.

    iii) Can someone explain to me why Lord Heseltine who is worth north of £200 million would be interested in a piddling little pension.

    Perhaps he is voting in line with his views which have been consistent for over 50 years.
    he is

    and he has always been upfront about his views on Europe
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 25,529

    Elliot said:

    The Daily Mail should stop pussy footing around. Just start a campaign to install Rees-Mogg as a kind of Lord Protector. It's the logical consequence of what it's been raving about for months.

    The Daily Mail is giving every impression of protesting too much. As the reality of Brexit begins to dawn, the Brexiteer search for scapegoats is intensifying. The fact is that what voters were promised is undeliverable. The imperative now is to find people to blame for that. It can be anyone, as long as it is not those who are truly to blame - the ones who never bothered to learn what leaving actually entailed, how complicated and time-consuming it would be and the compromises that would be necessary to make it economically viable.

    Remainers do everything they do to make a Brexit in Name Only, insisting that you only need to leave in name to fulfil the referendum result, then blame Brexiteers for not fulfilling the actual benefits. Of course you can't get the benefits of other trade deals if Remainers win and keep us in the EU customs union.... Remainers own that if it happens.
    The deal on the Customs Union is obvious. What I can't understand is why so much heat is being generated about it now.

    Leavers, through woeful lack of preparation, have no real alternative to offer to continued membership of a customs union for now. So the UK will stay in it on a renewable basis. That will give Leavers the opportunity to work with the Ministry of Magic to find a way to solve the problem in a few years' time.

    Perhaps the heat is being generated because the Leave hierarchy are so furious with themselves for being so incompetent.

    Lazy, more like. They could not be arsed to find out how the EU works, how the Customs Union works or how trade deals are done. They winged it, convinced themselves the UK held all the cards and as a result we are where we are.

    That’s also been my experience on this forum, I’m afraid.

    With one or two honourable exceptions most posters aren’t really interested in engaging with the detail of the negotiations or the issues - these are usually dismissed or ignored - and far more interested in pushing political attack lines, or attacking each other.
  • GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 2,799

    CD13 said:

    Mr fire,

    "The referendum result was close, so the outcome that best reflects that is leaving the EU abut staying very close. EEA membership would meet that."

    So if Jezza wins the GE by a couple of percent only, he will implement some Conservative policies to reflect the closeness of the result?

    And if Remain had won 52/48, would all the Remainers now be advocating dropping out of the EU and becoming members of the EEA as a middle ground? Yeah, right.
    No, because, obviously, Remainng would have won. It would be just as wrong to “interpret” such a result as an endorsement for further integration as it is for those who claim a Leave vote means we must leave the CU/SM
    But that is exactly what it would have been and how the EU would have interpreted it. This is one of the big lies at the heart of the Remain campaign - the idea that the EU would or could remain fixed in its current form. It was never going to be the case and a vote for Remain would have been a vote for further integration. At least some Remaniacs on here are honest enough to admit that.
    Except in the real world, Cameron did actually secure a few concessions. Minor ones, maybe. But not nothing.

    Please stop lying Mr Tyndall.
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 14,951

    CD13 said:

    Mr Song,

    "A reminder - the result was close. It didn't mention the Customs Union or Single Market. The Lords votes are not ignoring the result."

    Illogical.

    The vote was to leave the European Union. Can we do that by staying in the common market and the customs union? The answer is No, because that would involve taking on all the other responsibilities of EU membership. The EU can't and won't allow anything else.

    Do you deny that?.

    Erm, yes. By definition leaving the EU means we have left the EU. And you can certainly not be an EU member and be in the SM and CU, just like Norway. The referendum result was close, so the outcome that best reflects that is leaving the EU abut staying very close. EEA membership would meet that.

    If Brexiteers want us to leave the SM and CU they should be calling for a referendum on tht. They won’t, because they’d lose.
    Norway isn't in the Customs Union.

    Next!
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 68,878

    NEW THREAD

  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 45,446
    Mr. Meeks, I've searched Youtube but cannot find the footage, but a peer (I believe a Lib Dem) said in the Lords in recent days, quite overtly, that he wanted to prevent our departure from the EU.

    Mr. P, on a scale from Blair to Stalin, where does Webbe stand?
  • GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 2,799
    hunchman said:

    Elliot said:

    The Daily Mail should stop pussy footing around. Just start a campaign to install Rees-Mogg as a kind of Lord Protector. It's the logical consequence of what it's been raving about for months.

    The Daily Mail is giving every impression of protesting too much. As the reality of Brexit begins to dawn, the Brexiteer search for scapegoats is intensifying. The fact is that what voters were promised is undeliverable. The imperative now is to find people to blame for that. It can be anyone, as long as it is not those who are truly to blame - the ones who never bothered to learn what leaving actually entailed, how complicated and time-consuming it would be and the compromises that would be necessary to make it economically viable.

    Remainers do everything they do to make a Brexit in Name Only, insisting that you only need to leave in name to fulfil the referendum result, then blame Brexiteers for not fulfilling the actual benefits. Of course you can't get the benefits of other trade deals if Remainers win and keep us in the EU customs union.... Remainers own that if it happens.

    Totally agree. The good news is that staying in the CU - or, more likely, a version of it - would be far better for the UK economy than any number of far-distant trade deals dictated to us from the other side of the table.

    Nope it would be extremely bad for us. We cannot stay in 'the' Customs Union as it is an intrinsic art of EU membership. If we end up in 'a' customs union we find ourselves in the same position as Turkey where we are forced to allow tariff free imports from non EU countries but cannot have the same tariff free exports to them. It is a very, very stupid option advanced only by those who lack understanding.
    Totally agreed mr tyndall. The EU is in first order decline and our trade with them is declining in importance. We need free trade outside the CU to take advantage of the rising sun called China and India in the east. Meeks, William Glenn et al are stuck in a time warp from the past. Time to move on.
    Another Brexiter who failed both logic and statistics.

    The EU has the largest number of FTAs of any international entity. While our trade within the EU is in relative decline, the trade going through the FTAs is growing rapidly. Together, this amounts to nearly 2/3 of our exports.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 25,529
    The “unicorn” thing on smart border is particular nonsense. Yes, it’s new technology. Yes, it hasn’t been done before. But that doesn’t mean it can’t be or will never be. That just a political attack to stop it happening.

    It’s a major programme (my speciality) that would involve physical infrastructure (cameras, cables, servers, and inspection depots) particularly at Dover and Holyhead IT and central management (database and HMRC linkage) and operations (mobile customs officers and trained personnel). That would cover road transport. Air and sea freight “just” needs expansion of customs lanes and officers at our major ports and airports and/ or a similar form of smart pre-clearance with EU shipments, but it’s far less of an issue as those supply chains tend not to work on a “just in time” basis.

    I’d say you’d need a year or so for a full feasibility/concept study. Eighteen months to procure and design. And then 2-3 years to build, plus a year or two to test and commission and train the operators.

    So 2025 for a “go live” date is about right. You could attack it on ground of cost (probably several billion) or on extra trade friction with the EU (prob 0.2-0.4% GDP per annum) in service but not on feasibility in principle.
  • GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 2,799

    Mr. Meeks, I've searched Youtube but cannot find the footage, but a peer (I believe a Lib Dem) said in the Lords in recent days, quite overtly, that he wanted to prevent our departure from the EU.

    Mr. P, on a scale from Blair to Stalin, where does Webbe stand?

    A man in the pub, I forget which one, said quite overtly, that he preferred Hawaiian pizza.

    Get a grip. Why are Brexiters so paranoiac?
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 25,529
    Sean_F said:

    Mr. Fire, ha. If it had been 52% Remain we'd've had the Lords suggesting it was a green light to join the single currency. We would not have the political/media class in London talking about a looser relationship and regaining powers from the EU.

    It's a ratchet. Whenever someone says 'no' it can be overturned or watered down. Whenever someone says 'yes' it's full steam ahead, no need to pay attention to those pesky sceptics.

    Just rename the Constitution, or the customs union. Just re-run the referendum, or even overturn the result without bothering. Nobody will notice. There certainly won't be any consequences for showing contempt for democracy.

    What you're suggesting, what the Lords et al. are suggesting, is that we wanted a divorce, and the relationship to end. But we should stay in the same house, share the same bed, keep the joint account and retain the schedule of chores.

    To coin a phrase, they want to be able to think: nothing has changed.

    If we'd had a vote on the Constitution, as promised, we would probably not have ended up voting to leave. Cunning plans that work in the short term tend to fail in the long term.
    That was going on until very late in the day on the EU referendum campaign itself.

    The Government didn’t make much of a secret of the fact that it intended to use a Remain mandate to close down the EU as an issue for good, and silence the Brexit wing of the Tory party.

    Voters heard this and suspected they wouldn’t get another vote on it for decades, if at all, and so voted to take their chances accordingly.
  • GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 2,799

    The “unicorn” thing on smart border is particular nonsense. Yes, it’s new technology. Yes, it hasn’t been done before. But that doesn’t mean it can’t be or will never be. That just a political attack to stop it happening.

    It’s a major programme (my speciality) that would involve physical infrastructure (cameras, cables, servers, and inspection depots) particularly at Dover and Holyhead IT and central management (database and HMRC linkage) and operations (mobile customs officers and trained personnel). That would cover road transport. Air and sea freight “just” needs expansion of customs lanes and officers at our major ports and airports and/ or a similar form of smart pre-clearance with EU shipments, but it’s far less of an issue as those supply chains tend not to work on a “just in time” basis.

    I’d say you’d need a year or so for a full feasibility/concept study. Eighteen months to procure and design. And then 2-3 years to build, plus a year or two to test and commission and train the operators.

    So 2025 for a “go live” date is about right. You could attack it on ground of cost (probably several billion) or on extra trade friction with the EU (prob 0.2-0.4% GDP per annum) in service but not on feasibility in principle.

    Good post.
    First coherent description of max fac I’ve seen anywhere.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 25,529

    The “unicorn” thing on smart border is particular nonsense. Yes, it’s new technology. Yes, it hasn’t been done before. But that doesn’t mean it can’t be or will never be. That just a political attack to stop it happening.

    It’s a major programme (my speciality) that would involve physical infrastructure (cameras, cables, servers, and inspection depots) particularly at Dover and Holyhead IT and central management (database and HMRC linkage) and operations (mobile customs officers and trained personnel). That would cover road transport. Air and sea freight “just” needs expansion of customs lanes and officers at our major ports and airports and/ or a similar form of smart pre-clearance with EU shipments, but it’s far less of an issue as those supply chains tend not to work on a “just in time” basis.

    I’d say you’d need a year or so for a full feasibility/concept study. Eighteen months to procure and design. And then 2-3 years to build, plus a year or two to test and commission and train the operators.

    So 2025 for a “go live” date is about right. You could attack it on ground of cost (probably several billion) or on extra trade friction with the EU (prob 0.2-0.4% GDP per annum) in service but not on feasibility in principle.

    Good post.
    First coherent description of max fac I’ve seen anywhere.
    Thank you.
This discussion has been closed.