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politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » Heidi Allen: Could she be the LAB mayoral nominee in 2020 so S

SystemSystem Posts: 6,199
edited May 10 in General

imagepoliticalbetting.com » Blog Archive » Heidi Allen: Could she be the LAB mayoral nominee in 2020 so Sadiq can return to the Commons to challenge Corbyn?

There’s a fair bit of speculation doing the rounds about why ex-Lewisham E MP and former shadow health secretary, Heidi Allen has quit her seat for a job with Sadiq Khan at City Hall.

Read the full story here


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Comments

  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 67,569
    edited May 10
    I was thinking that too.

    I reckon Sadiq Khan as leader might just appeal to all Labour supporters.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 67,569
    I thought the PB style guide was against thread headlines that could make it on to John Rentoul’s QTWTAIN list ?
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 44,281
    How does that work mechanically, though?

    Corbyn cannot be ousted unless the membership agree to it.
  • shadsyshadsy Posts: 282
    2020 london Mayor: 20/1 with ladbrokes
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 14,190
    shadsy said:

    2020 london Mayor: 20/1 with ladbrokes

    Quick. Well done Shadsy.
  • GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 2,731
    Interesting idea.

    But who gets to choose the Labour mayoralty candidate? Surely the Corbynistas wouldn’t let Heidi go through?
  • GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 2,731

    I was thinking that too.

    I reckon Sadiq Khan as leader might just appeal to all Labour supporters.

    Not to me, though.

    He’s a preening ninny in the Trudeau/Ardern (but not Macron, who has substance) vein.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 67,569
    A bit misleading.

    Labour’s support fell in almost half the 50 most marginal constituencies where all councillors were up for election last week, analysis by a party insider has found.

    The study obtained by The Times shows that in 20 of the Westminster seats examined, support for Jeremy Corbyn’s party declined between 2014 and last week.

    It increased in 23 Westminster seats.
  • Tissue_PriceTissue_Price Posts: 7,732
    What proportion of Lab members are in London? It's very high IIRC.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 24,921
    Scott_P said:
    David can speak for himself on this forum.

    He doesn’t need your tedious and ceaseless Scott & Paste from your Twitter feed, complete with sarcasm and digs, which is all you bring to this site.
  • rkrkrkrkrkrk Posts: 4,425

    I was thinking that too.

    I reckon Sadiq Khan as leader might just appeal to all Labour supporters.

    He put Corbyn on the ballot - that could help him with the left.
    London is ready to vote for a Muslim leader, but is the country?
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 29,384
    On topic - would an ex-London Mayor Remain Londoner be the best candidate to swing voters in the Midlands and the North? And where would he stand? Not sure Corbyn's Labour will be tripping over themselves to find him a seat....

    As to Heidi - I guess being Deputy Mayor is a two year audition for the top job, otherwise she may lack some of the 'star quality' that saw Ken, Boris & Sadiq into the role...
  • SlackbladderSlackbladder Posts: 6,195
    edited May 10
    Wouldn't Khan doing only 1 term be looking a bit like cutting and running?

    Going from Mayor of London back to a MP would be a major downgrade when taken by itself.

    There's a risk he looks too opportunist and careerist if he makes something like this too obvious.
  • GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 2,731
    Back into Brexit for a moment, surely it’s impossible to determine exactly how the customs arrangement should work until the master FTA is agreed?

    Are we all putting the cart before the horse?
    I can see why it’s in the EU’s interests to do so of course.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 67,569
    rkrkrk said:

    I was thinking that too.

    I reckon Sadiq Khan as leader might just appeal to all Labour supporters.

    He put Corbyn on the ballot - that could help him with the left.
    London is ready to vote for a Muslim leader, but is the country?
    We’ve had a Muslim as England’s cricket captain, they’ll accept it.

    I still think the Tories might beat Labour to the first Muslim Leader/PM.

    Honestly you wait ages for the son of a Muslim immigrant bus driver to become party leader then two come along at once.
  • Scott_PScott_P Posts: 37,802

    David can speak for himself on this forum.

    He doesn’t need your tedious and ceaseless Scott & Paste from your Twitter feed, complete with sarcasm and digs, which is all you bring to this site.

    You could address the substance of the Tweet.

    But no. Just whine instead.
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 29,384
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 45,396

    Wouldn't Khan doing only 1 term be looking a bit like cutting and running?

    Going from Major of London back to a MP would be a major downgrade when taken by itself.

    There's a risk he looks too opportunist and careerist if he makes something like this too obvious.

    He is only 47 years old, I think he'll serve two terms and then go for the leadership. The Tories will be desperately unpopular by 2024 when he'll be 53 years old and well placed to become PM in 2026.
  • logical_songlogical_song Posts: 6,032

    Wouldn't Khan doing only 1 term be looking a bit like cutting and running?

    Going from Mayor of London back to a MP would be a major downgrade when taken by itself.

    There's a risk he looks too opportunist and careerist if he makes something like this too obvious.

    If he gets LOTO then PM then it would be quite an upgrade from Mayor.
  • Scott_PScott_P Posts: 37,802
    Ministry of Magic to be based in Reading...

  • Tissue_PriceTissue_Price Posts: 7,732
    The boundary changes in Newcastle-under-Lyme seem to have rendered all "insiders" unable to do their sums!
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 67,569
    Scott_P said:

    Ministry of Magic to be based in Reading...

    Another shithole.

    Reading exists to make Slough look good.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 18,669
    I've long been saying that Khan is the one with the ambition and the distance from Corbyn's cabinet clusterf*ck to go for it.
  • BudGBudG Posts: 610

    A bit misleading.

    Labour’s support fell in almost half the 50 most marginal constituencies where all councillors were up for election last week, analysis by a party insider has found.

    The study obtained by The Times shows that in 20 of the Westminster seats examined, support for Jeremy Corbyn’s party declined between 2014 and last week.

    It increased in 23 Westminster seats.
    More than a bit misleading.

    If support fell in almost half the most marginal constituencies then it follows that support increased in more than half the marginal constituencies, so overall, some positive progress and not bad news for Labour.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 45,396

    Wouldn't Khan doing only 1 term be looking a bit like cutting and running?

    Going from Mayor of London back to a MP would be a major downgrade when taken by itself.

    There's a risk he looks too opportunist and careerist if he makes something like this too obvious.

    If he gets LOTO then PM then it would be quite an upgrade from Mayor.
    No rush, best to see the limits of Corbynism in 2022.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 67,569
    BudG said:

    A bit misleading.

    Labour’s support fell in almost half the 50 most marginal constituencies where all councillors were up for election last week, analysis by a party insider has found.

    The study obtained by The Times shows that in 20 of the Westminster seats examined, support for Jeremy Corbyn’s party declined between 2014 and last week.

    It increased in 23 Westminster seats.
    More than a bit misleading.

    If support fell in almost half the most marginal constituencies then it follows that support increased in more than half the marginal constituencies, so overall, some positive progress and not bad news for Labour.
    But not good enough for Labour to take power.
  • logical_songlogical_song Posts: 6,032

    Scott_P said:
    David can speak for himself on this forum.

    He doesn’t need your tedious and ceaseless Scott & Paste from your Twitter feed, complete with sarcasm and digs, which is all you bring to this site.
    Thanks for posting that Scott, it made some valid points.
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 29,384
    Pulpstar said:

    Wouldn't Khan doing only 1 term be looking a bit like cutting and running?

    Going from Major of London back to a MP would be a major downgrade when taken by itself.

    There's a risk he looks too opportunist and careerist if he makes something like this too obvious.

    He is only 47 years old, I think he'll serve two terms and then go for the leadership. The Tories will be desperately unpopular by 2024 when he'll be 53 years old and well placed to become PM in 2026.
    That would also give Heidi longer in her role to make her mark.....
  • Scott_PScott_P Posts: 37,802
    IT WAS the day Mary Queen of Scots was deposed, ending a reign of almost 25 years.

    Now Nicola Sturgeon and Theresa May will be hoping July 24 is less ominous for modern leaders, as their governments go to court over a Brexit “power grab”.

    The Supreme Court has provisionally set down July 24 and 25 for the unprecedented legal clash, in which the UK government will effectively seek to kill off a Bill passed by Holyrood.

    Although the timing coincides with Westminster going into summer recess, the event is expected to become a highly politicised part of the independence debate.


    http://www.heraldscotland.com/news/16216053.Supreme_Court_date_set_for_cross_border_Brexit_fight/
  • SlackbladderSlackbladder Posts: 6,195

    Wouldn't Khan doing only 1 term be looking a bit like cutting and running?

    Going from Mayor of London back to a MP would be a major downgrade when taken by itself.

    There's a risk he looks too opportunist and careerist if he makes something like this too obvious.

    If he gets LOTO then PM then it would be quite an upgrade from Mayor.
    Indeed, but there's a few steps from one to the other. I highly doubt it'll just be his for the taking if he wants it.

    The first step would be him saying he's only doing one term. How he justifies that would lead to questions and motives. There's no vacancy for LOTO at the moment remember.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 45,396

    Pulpstar said:

    Wouldn't Khan doing only 1 term be looking a bit like cutting and running?

    Going from Major of London back to a MP would be a major downgrade when taken by itself.

    There's a risk he looks too opportunist and careerist if he makes something like this too obvious.

    He is only 47 years old, I think he'll serve two terms and then go for the leadership. The Tories will be desperately unpopular by 2024 when he'll be 53 years old and well placed to become PM in 2026.
    That would also give Heidi longer in her role to make her mark.....
    Yes, despite the underperformance in these locals London isn't going anywhere for Labour, and Heidi is 43 - so again no rush.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 24,921
    Scott_P said:

    David can speak for himself on this forum.

    He doesn’t need your tedious and ceaseless Scott & Paste from your Twitter feed, complete with sarcasm and digs, which is all you bring to this site.

    You could address the substance of the Tweet.

    But no. Just whine instead.
    I am happy to engage with David anytime, and often do so both on his twitter feed and directly through discussion on here. I will continue to do so.

    You are a waste of time. You simply want to provoke those you politically disagree with for your own entertainment.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 67,569
    Pulpstar said:

    Wouldn't Khan doing only 1 term be looking a bit like cutting and running?

    Going from Mayor of London back to a MP would be a major downgrade when taken by itself.

    There's a risk he looks too opportunist and careerist if he makes something like this too obvious.

    If he gets LOTO then PM then it would be quite an upgrade from Mayor.
    No rush, best to see the limits of Corbynism in 2022.
    He can also double job between 2022-24 following the precedent Boris set.
  • rkrkrkrkrkrk Posts: 4,425

    rkrkrk said:

    I was thinking that too.

    I reckon Sadiq Khan as leader might just appeal to all Labour supporters.

    He put Corbyn on the ballot - that could help him with the left.
    London is ready to vote for a Muslim leader, but is the country?
    We’ve had a Muslim as England’s cricket captain, they’ll accept it.

    I still think the Tories might beat Labour to the first Muslim Leader/PM.

    Honestly you wait ages for the son of a Muslim immigrant bus driver to become party leader then two come along at once.
    Accept it is one thing, vote for it is another.
  • GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 2,731

    Scott_P said:

    Ministry of Magic to be based in Reading...

    Another shithole.

    Reading exists to make Slough look good.
    That skyline is testament to endemic failure of ambition by council leaders and planners in this country.

    Reading is wealthy. Why does it need to look so awful?
  • rkrkrkrkrkrk Posts: 4,425

    A bit misleading.

    Labour’s support fell in almost half the 50 most marginal constituencies where all councillors were up for election last week, analysis by a party insider has found.

    The study obtained by The Times shows that in 20 of the Westminster seats examined, support for Jeremy Corbyn’s party declined between 2014 and last week.

    It increased in 23 Westminster seats.
    So in 7 seats it remained exactly the same? That doesn't seem that likely...
  • Scott_PScott_P Posts: 37,802

    You are a waste of time.

    And yet you continue to whine at me.

    If you want to engage with the content, go ahead.

    If you don't want to "waste time", jog on...
  • SlackbladderSlackbladder Posts: 6,195

    Pulpstar said:

    Wouldn't Khan doing only 1 term be looking a bit like cutting and running?

    Going from Mayor of London back to a MP would be a major downgrade when taken by itself.

    There's a risk he looks too opportunist and careerist if he makes something like this too obvious.

    If he gets LOTO then PM then it would be quite an upgrade from Mayor.
    No rush, best to see the limits of Corbynism in 2022.
    He can also double job between 2022-24 following the precedent Boris set.
    There's a difference between being an MP, then becoming Mayor, and being Mayor already then becoming an MP as well.

    The Optics of that are interesting.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 6,667

    Scott_P said:
    David can speak for himself on this forum.

    He doesn’t need your tedious and ceaseless Scott & Paste from your Twitter feed, complete with sarcasm and digs, which is all you bring to this site.
    By replying with your usual shining whit, you do realise you are reposting the copied tweets to which you so ... eloquently object ?
  • TGOHFTGOHF Posts: 18,077
    Given Khan is overseeing a murder spree on his watch which he seems powerless to stop it's obvious his present job is too much for him.

    LotO might be more his level.
  • david_herdsondavid_herdson Posts: 14,297

    Pulpstar said:

    Wouldn't Khan doing only 1 term be looking a bit like cutting and running?

    Going from Mayor of London back to a MP would be a major downgrade when taken by itself.

    There's a risk he looks too opportunist and careerist if he makes something like this too obvious.

    If he gets LOTO then PM then it would be quite an upgrade from Mayor.
    No rush, best to see the limits of Corbynism in 2022.
    He can also double job between 2022-24 following the precedent Boris set.
    There's a difference between being an MP, then becoming Mayor, and being Mayor already then becoming an MP as well.

    The Optics of that are interesting.
    That is what Boris did. He left parliament when he was elected mayor in 2008 so only double-jobbed at the end of his mayoral term. Ken did it the other way round, double-jobbing at the start, from 2000-2001. However, those two examples were only for one year; it might be different for a full half-term of the mayor's office.
  • FensterFenster Posts: 1,621
    rkrkrk said:

    rkrkrk said:

    I was thinking that too.

    I reckon Sadiq Khan as leader might just appeal to all Labour supporters.

    He put Corbyn on the ballot - that could help him with the left.
    London is ready to vote for a Muslim leader, but is the country?
    We’ve had a Muslim as England’s cricket captain, they’ll accept it.

    I still think the Tories might beat Labour to the first Muslim Leader/PM.

    Honestly you wait ages for the son of a Muslim immigrant bus driver to become party leader then two come along at once.
    Accept it is one thing, vote for it is another.
    Who was the Muslim who captained England?

    Was it Nasser? Or Moeen in a one-dayer?

    Genuinely interested.
  • david_herdsondavid_herdson Posts: 14,297

    Wouldn't Khan doing only 1 term be looking a bit like cutting and running?

    Going from Mayor of London back to a MP would be a major downgrade when taken by itself.

    There's a risk he looks too opportunist and careerist if he makes something like this too obvious.

    If he gets LOTO then PM then it would be quite an upgrade from Mayor.
    Not really. Mayor of London is probably equivalent to a junior cabinet job. It'd certainly be a much smaller upgrade than Corbyn had, and not that dissimilar to Miliband's promotion from Shadow S/State for Energy to LotO.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 24,921
    Scott_P said:

    You are a waste of time.

    And yet you continue to whine at me.

    If you want to engage with the content, go ahead.

    If you don't want to "waste time", jog on...
    One could say the same thing about you. Whine is one of your favourite words and you use it all the time. You use it to provoke posters you don’t agree with so they react and then sink to your level. That’s why people mostly ignore you now. They know you have no interest in the content as you have no thoughts of your own.

    How many hours a day do you spend on here copying and pasting things that *other people* say that you agree with from Twitter in a deluded belief you are fighting the good fight?

    Get a life.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 67,569
    Fenster said:

    rkrkrk said:

    rkrkrk said:

    I was thinking that too.

    I reckon Sadiq Khan as leader might just appeal to all Labour supporters.

    He put Corbyn on the ballot - that could help him with the left.
    London is ready to vote for a Muslim leader, but is the country?
    We’ve had a Muslim as England’s cricket captain, they’ll accept it.

    I still think the Tories might beat Labour to the first Muslim Leader/PM.

    Honestly you wait ages for the son of a Muslim immigrant bus driver to become party leader then two come along at once.
    Accept it is one thing, vote for it is another.
    Who was the Muslim who captained England?

    Was it Nasser? Or Moeen in a one-dayer?

    Genuinely interested.
    Nasser Hussain. Test and ODI Captain between 1999 and 2003.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 24,921
    Nigelb said:

    Scott_P said:
    David can speak for himself on this forum.

    He doesn’t need your tedious and ceaseless Scott & Paste from your Twitter feed, complete with sarcasm and digs, which is all you bring to this site.
    By replying with your usual shining whit, you do realise you are reposting the copied tweets to which you so ... eloquently object ?
    Yes. The bloke just really pisses me off.
  • GIN1138GIN1138 Posts: 11,539
    Javid Vs Khan in 2022 would be an interesting general election.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 45,396

    Scott_P said:

    Ministry of Magic to be based in Reading...

    Another shithole.

    Reading exists to make Slough look good.
    I thought that was Luton's job.
  • FensterFenster Posts: 1,621

    Fenster said:

    rkrkrk said:

    rkrkrk said:

    I was thinking that too.

    I reckon Sadiq Khan as leader might just appeal to all Labour supporters.

    He put Corbyn on the ballot - that could help him with the left.
    London is ready to vote for a Muslim leader, but is the country?
    We’ve had a Muslim as England’s cricket captain, they’ll accept it.

    I still think the Tories might beat Labour to the first Muslim Leader/PM.

    Honestly you wait ages for the son of a Muslim immigrant bus driver to become party leader then two come along at once.
    Accept it is one thing, vote for it is another.
    Who was the Muslim who captained England?

    Was it Nasser? Or Moeen in a one-dayer?

    Genuinely interested.
    Nasser Hussain. Test and ODI Captain between 1999 and 2003.
    Ah cheers - I'd never realised he was Muslim.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 67,569
    edited May 10
    Fenster said:

    Fenster said:

    rkrkrk said:

    rkrkrk said:

    I was thinking that too.

    I reckon Sadiq Khan as leader might just appeal to all Labour supporters.

    He put Corbyn on the ballot - that could help him with the left.
    London is ready to vote for a Muslim leader, but is the country?
    We’ve had a Muslim as England’s cricket captain, they’ll accept it.

    I still think the Tories might beat Labour to the first Muslim Leader/PM.

    Honestly you wait ages for the son of a Muslim immigrant bus driver to become party leader then two come along at once.
    Accept it is one thing, vote for it is another.
    Who was the Muslim who captained England?

    Was it Nasser? Or Moeen in a one-dayer?

    Genuinely interested.
    Nasser Hussain. Test and ODI Captain between 1999 and 2003.
    Ah cheers - I'd never realised he was Muslim.
    He’s as much a devout Muslim as I am.
  • SlackbladderSlackbladder Posts: 6,195
    edited May 10

    Pulpstar said:

    Wouldn't Khan doing only 1 term be looking a bit like cutting and running?

    Going from Mayor of London back to a MP would be a major downgrade when taken by itself.

    There's a risk he looks too opportunist and careerist if he makes something like this too obvious.

    If he gets LOTO then PM then it would be quite an upgrade from Mayor.
    No rush, best to see the limits of Corbynism in 2022.
    He can also double job between 2022-24 following the precedent Boris set.
    There's a difference between being an MP, then becoming Mayor, and being Mayor already then becoming an MP as well.

    The Optics of that are interesting.
    That is what Boris did. He left parliament when he was elected mayor in 2008 so only double-jobbed at the end of his mayoral term. Ken did it the other way round, double-jobbing at the start, from 2000-2001. However, those two examples were only for one year; it might be different for a full half-term of the mayor's office.
    My mistake, I assumed Boris did that at the start when he was with Henley, not at the end.

    Still, I expect if we look at what labour said about that at the time, it wouldn't be positive about doing that...

  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 20,741
    In response to Hannan’s latest piece.
  • HHemmeligHHemmelig Posts: 617
    I don't think Khan being a muslim would necessarily be an issue. His horribly garbled way of speaking would really hold him back with middle England though. He speaks way too fast and makes John Prescott sound clear and concise.
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 14,190
    It's not but we have an impotent Remainer as PM who threw away Cameron's majority.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 24,921
    Is Nicky Morgan actually interested in winning round other Conservatives to her point of view, or just having public digs at them to make herself feel better and win some applause from those who already agree with her?

    I think it must be the latter as - regardless of the merits of the argument - calling those she disagree with tantruming toddlers or goading them is only going to accentuate divisions, not heal them.
  • bigjohnowlsbigjohnowls Posts: 10,059
    On Topic No Chance

    HA is a Blairite.

    SK is too Centrist

    ET is next LL
  • GIN1138GIN1138 Posts: 11,539

    It's not but we have an impotent Remainer as PM who threw away Cameron's majority.
    Theresa's been a real letdown hasn't she? :(
  • Dura_AceDura_Ace Posts: 1,889
    If ConHome aka Gammon HQ is losing faith then the leave jihad really is in trouble.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 20,741

    It's not but we have an impotent Remainer as PM who threw away Cameron's majority.
    The biggest factor in why things have played out the way they have is that the EU has remained solid. A different PM or a majority government wouldn’t have changed that.
  • SlackbladderSlackbladder Posts: 6,195

    Is Nicky Morgan actually interested in winning round other Conservatives to her point of view, or just having public digs at them to make herself feel better and win some applause from those who already agree with her?

    I think it must be the latter as - regardless of the merits of the argument - calling those she disagree with tantruming toddlers or goading them is only going to accentuate divisions, not heal them.
    Thats true. One way or another there needs to be a solution and a way forward. Both sides are just bunkering down and throwing insults at each other, which helps no-one.

    Thats the ultimate fault of May, who seems to be kicking the can down the road.

    We need a solution, and both sides need to compromise on this and come together one way or another.
  • philiphphiliph Posts: 2,866
    Wow!

    This is big news.

    Will it mean that Sadiq Khan is undergoing gender reassignment to become eligible for the top job in Labour?
  • HHemmeligHHemmelig Posts: 617

    It's not but we have an impotent Remainer as PM who threw away Cameron's majority.
    The biggest factor in why things have played out the way they have is that the EU has remained solid. A different PM or a majority government wouldn’t have changed that.
    I was in Brussels yesterday. Word on the street is that the UK government is hiring Brussels based consultants left right and centre in desperation to find a way out of the customs mess.
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 14,190

    It's not but we have an impotent Remainer as PM who threw away Cameron's majority.
    The biggest factor in why things have played out the way they have is that the EU has remained solid. A different PM or a majority government wouldn’t have changed that.
    When Theresa May carries all the authority of a wet sponge of course they have.

    When Theresa May has shown zero initiative in setting out her own position of course they have.

    The EU spent ages saying to Britain "what do you want" while May spent ages saying "what will you offer" until eventually the EU set out its position. A confident PM let alone one with a healthy majority should have put out from the start a positive vision of what we were seeking and the EU could and would have worked with that. The EU's own actions show that.
  • GIN1138GIN1138 Posts: 11,539

    Is Nicky Morgan actually interested in winning round other Conservatives to her point of view, or just having public digs at them to make herself feel better and win some applause from those who already agree with her?

    I think it must be the latter as - regardless of the merits of the argument - calling those she disagree with tantruming toddlers or goading them is only going to accentuate divisions, not heal them.
    Thats true. One way or another there needs to be a solution and a way forward. Both sides are just bunkering down and throwing insults at each other, which helps no-one.

    Thats the ultimate fault of May, who seems to be kicking the can down the road.


    This needs sorting out one way or another. Enough of Theresa hiding in her bunker she needs to make a bloody decision.
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 14,190
    philiph said:

    Wow!

    This is big news.

    Will it mean that Sadiq Khan is undergoing gender reassignment to become eligible for the top job in Labour?

    Why would he need to? He already has the Y Chromosome that is a prerequisite to be eligible for the top job in Labour.
  • HHemmeligHHemmelig Posts: 617
    edited May 10

    It's not but we have an impotent Remainer as PM who threw away Cameron's majority.
    For which the country, and the Tory party, should be eternally grateful. An impotent remainer can do far less damage to both than an idealogical leaver. Imperfect as she may be, May is all that stands in the way of the disaster of PM Corbyn or PM Mogg. Shudder.
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 14,190
    HHemmelig said:

    It's not but we have an impotent Remainer as PM who threw away Cameron's majority.
    The biggest factor in why things have played out the way they have is that the EU has remained solid. A different PM or a majority government wouldn’t have changed that.
    I was in Brussels yesterday. Word on the street is that the UK government is hiring Brussels based consultants left right and centre in desperation to find a way out of the customs mess.
    Norway isn't in the Customs Union
    Switzerland isn't in the Customs Union

    There's no need to be in one.
  • philiphphiliph Posts: 2,866

    philiph said:

    Wow!

    This is big news.

    Will it mean that Sadiq Khan is undergoing gender reassignment to become eligible for the top job in Labour?

    Why would he need to? He already has the Y Chromosome that is a prerequisite to be eligible for the top job in Labour.
    I thought the time had come for the next Labour leader to be XX
  • GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 2,731

    It's not but we have an impotent Remainer as PM who threw away Cameron's majority.
    The biggest factor in why things have played out the way they have is that the EU has remained solid. A different PM or a majority government wouldn’t have changed that.
    When Theresa May carries all the authority of a wet sponge of course they have.

    When Theresa May has shown zero initiative in setting out her own position of course they have.

    The EU spent ages saying to Britain "what do you want" while May spent ages saying "what will you offer" until eventually the EU set out its position. A confident PM let alone one with a healthy majority should have put out from the start a positive vision of what we were seeking and the EU could and would have worked with that. The EU's own actions show that.
    I actually think that’s fair.

    Not because she is/was a Remainer, though, but because she doesn’t do initiative or vision. Her personality and training in the Home Office is about security and control.

    On the other hand, who could do a better job?
    Please don’t say Boris, JRM, Davis, or Fox.
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 14,190
    HHemmelig said:

    It's not but we have an impotent Remainer as PM who threw away Cameron's majority.
    For which the country, and the Tory party, should be eternally grateful. An impotent remainer can do far less damage to both than an idealogical leaver. Imperfect as she may be, May is all that stands in the way of the twin disasters of PM Corbyn or PM Mogg. Shudder.
    PM Gove or even (shudder) PM Boris would have been better.

    They had a positive and open vision of a liberal Britain.

    Instead May with the fake zeal of the covert portrayed a vicious, nasty and insular anti-migration red line Britain and gave no positivity whatsoever. That's been a disaster.
  • philiphphiliph Posts: 2,866

    It's not but we have an impotent Remainer as PM who threw away Cameron's majority.
    The biggest factor in why things have played out the way they have is that the EU has remained solid. A different PM or a majority government wouldn’t have changed that.
    When Theresa May carries all the authority of a wet sponge of course they have.

    When Theresa May has shown zero initiative in setting out her own position of course they have.

    The EU spent ages saying to Britain "what do you want" while May spent ages saying "what will you offer" until eventually the EU set out its position. A confident PM let alone one with a healthy majority should have put out from the start a positive vision of what we were seeking and the EU could and would have worked with that. The EU's own actions show that.
    I actually think that’s fair.

    Not because she is/was a Remainer, though, but because she doesn’t do initiative or vision. Her personality and training in the Home Office is about security and control.

    On the other hand, who could do a better job?
    Please don’t say Boris, JRM, Davis, or Fox.
    Half of PB?
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 14,190

    It's not but we have an impotent Remainer as PM who threw away Cameron's majority.
    The biggest factor in why things have played out the way they have is that the EU has remained solid. A different PM or a majority government wouldn’t have changed that.
    When Theresa May carries all the authority of a wet sponge of course they have.

    When Theresa May has shown zero initiative in setting out her own position of course they have.

    The EU spent ages saying to Britain "what do you want" while May spent ages saying "what will you offer" until eventually the EU set out its position. A confident PM let alone one with a healthy majority should have put out from the start a positive vision of what we were seeking and the EU could and would have worked with that. The EU's own actions show that.
    I actually think that’s fair.

    Not because she is/was a Remainer, though, but because she doesn’t do initiative or vision. Her personality and training in the Home Office is about security and control.

    On the other hand, who could do a better job?
    Please don’t say Boris, JRM, Davis, or Fox.
    Gove.

    Or more likely Boris only as the front-man to more serious people behind him (like Gove in the referendum).
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 67,569
    GIN1138 said:

    It's not but we have an impotent Remainer as PM who threw away Cameron's majority.
    Theresa's been a real letdown hasn't she? :(
    I remember the days when I was criticised for calling Theresa May a pound shop Gordon Brown.
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 14,190
    philiph said:

    philiph said:

    Wow!

    This is big news.

    Will it mean that Sadiq Khan is undergoing gender reassignment to become eligible for the top job in Labour?

    Why would he need to? He already has the Y Chromosome that is a prerequisite to be eligible for the top job in Labour.
    I thought the time had come for the next Labour leader to be XX
    The time has long since come but the reality still hasn't. Not only has no woman ever been permanent leader I do believe no woman has ever even beaten any man in the rankings for electing a leader. The next Labour leader being XX seems about as likely as the next Pontiff being XX.
  • RoyalBlueRoyalBlue Posts: 2,366
    Nicky Morgan combines a thirst for publicity with a lack of emotional maturity. She lets the other Europhile Tories down.
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 14,190

    GIN1138 said:

    It's not but we have an impotent Remainer as PM who threw away Cameron's majority.
    Theresa's been a real letdown hasn't she? :(
    I remember the days when I was criticised for calling Theresa May a pound shop Gordon Brown.
    Not much criticism for that remark post 10pm 8 June 2017
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 20,741

    It's not but we have an impotent Remainer as PM who threw away Cameron's majority.
    The biggest factor in why things have played out the way they have is that the EU has remained solid. A different PM or a majority government wouldn’t have changed that.
    When Theresa May carries all the authority of a wet sponge of course they have.

    When Theresa May has shown zero initiative in setting out her own position of course they have.

    The EU spent ages saying to Britain "what do you want" while May spent ages saying "what will you offer" until eventually the EU set out its position. A confident PM let alone one with a healthy majority should have put out from the start a positive vision of what we were seeking and the EU could and would have worked with that. The EU's own actions show that.
    I actually think that’s fair.

    Not because she is/was a Remainer, though, but because she doesn’t do initiative or vision. Her personality and training in the Home Office is about security and control.

    On the other hand, who could do a better job?
    Please don’t say Boris, JRM, Davis, or Fox.
    Gove.

    Or more likely Boris only as the front-man to more serious people behind him (like Gove in the referendum).
    Gove played the key role in turning support for leaving the EU into a mainstream position. This is his mess.
  • YorkcityYorkcity Posts: 3,401

    On Topic No Chance

    HA is a Blairite.

    SK is too Centrist

    ET is next LL

    I do agree Emily Thornberry is the better bet , and in a better position to become LOTO.
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 14,190

    It's not but we have an impotent Remainer as PM who threw away Cameron's majority.
    The biggest factor in why things have played out the way they have is that the EU has remained solid. A different PM or a majority government wouldn’t have changed that.
    When Theresa May carries all the authority of a wet sponge of course they have.

    When Theresa May has shown zero initiative in setting out her own position of course they have.

    The EU spent ages saying to Britain "what do you want" while May spent ages saying "what will you offer" until eventually the EU set out its position. A confident PM let alone one with a healthy majority should have put out from the start a positive vision of what we were seeking and the EU could and would have worked with that. The EU's own actions show that.
    I actually think that’s fair.

    Not because she is/was a Remainer, though, but because she doesn’t do initiative or vision. Her personality and training in the Home Office is about security and control.

    On the other hand, who could do a better job?
    Please don’t say Boris, JRM, Davis, or Fox.
    Gove.

    Or more likely Boris only as the front-man to more serious people behind him (like Gove in the referendum).
    Gove played the key role in turning support for leaving the EU into a mainstream position. This is his mess.
    And he would be the best one to own it instead of being relegated behind people like May.

    He had the vision for Brexit. May did not. He should be leading our negotiations.
  • philiphphiliph Posts: 2,866

    It's not but we have an impotent Remainer as PM who threw away Cameron's majority.
    The biggest factor in why things have played out the way they have is that the EU has remained solid. A different PM or a majority government wouldn’t have changed that.
    When Theresa May carries all the authority of a wet sponge of course they have.

    When Theresa May has shown zero initiative in setting out her own position of course they have.

    The EU spent ages saying to Britain "what do you want" while May spent ages saying "what will you offer" until eventually the EU set out its position. A confident PM let alone one with a healthy majority should have put out from the start a positive vision of what we were seeking and the EU could and would have worked with that. The EU's own actions show that.
    I actually think that’s fair.

    Not because she is/was a Remainer, though, but because she doesn’t do initiative or vision. Her personality and training in the Home Office is about security and control.

    On the other hand, who could do a better job?
    Please don’t say Boris, JRM, Davis, or Fox.
    Gove.

    Or more likely Boris only as the front-man to more serious people behind him (like Gove in the referendum).
    Gove really isn't in possession of the qualities required for a public facing number 1. He is much more suited to a position of number two or three in a more sheltered position from public gaze.

    It is what Cameron did so well, the public facing bit, and leaving the detail, plans and thoughts to others (Ozzy, Gove etc) who lacked charisma and easy charm.
  • GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 2,731

    It's not but we have an impotent Remainer as PM who threw away Cameron's majority.
    The biggest factor in why things have played out the way they have is that the EU has remained solid. A different PM or a majority government wouldn’t have changed that.
    When Theresa May carries all the authority of a wet sponge of course they have.

    When Theresa May has shown zero initiative in setting out her own position of course they have.

    The EU spent ages saying to Britain "what do you want" while May spent ages saying "what will you offer" until eventually the EU set out its position. A confident PM let alone one with a healthy majority should have put out from the start a positive vision of what we were seeking and the EU could and would have worked with that. The EU's own actions show that.
    I actually think that’s fair.

    Not because she is/was a Remainer, though, but because she doesn’t do initiative or vision. Her personality and training in the Home Office is about security and control.

    On the other hand, who could do a better job?
    Please don’t say Boris, JRM, Davis, or Fox.
    Gove.

    Or more likely Boris only as the front-man to more serious people behind him (like Gove in the referendum).
    I’m perilously close to agreeing with you this morning.
  • GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 2,731

    HHemmelig said:

    It's not but we have an impotent Remainer as PM who threw away Cameron's majority.
    For which the country, and the Tory party, should be eternally grateful. An impotent remainer can do far less damage to both than an idealogical leaver. Imperfect as she may be, May is all that stands in the way of the twin disasters of PM Corbyn or PM Mogg. Shudder.
    PM Gove or even (shudder) PM Boris would have been better.

    They had a positive and open vision of a liberal Britain.

    Instead May with the fake zeal of the covert portrayed a vicious, nasty and insular anti-migration red line Britain and gave no positivity whatsoever. That's been a disaster.
    With your last para you put your finger on exactly why Remainers like me have failed to “come around” to the project.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 20,741

    It's not but we have an impotent Remainer as PM who threw away Cameron's majority.
    The biggest factor in why things have played out the way they have is that the EU has remained solid. A different PM or a majority government wouldn’t have changed that.
    When Theresa May carries all the authority of a wet sponge of course they have.

    When Theresa May has shown zero initiative in setting out her own position of course they have.

    The EU spent ages saying to Britain "what do you want" while May spent ages saying "what will you offer" until eventually the EU set out its position. A confident PM let alone one with a healthy majority should have put out from the start a positive vision of what we were seeking and the EU could and would have worked with that. The EU's own actions show that.
    I actually think that’s fair.

    Not because she is/was a Remainer, though, but because she doesn’t do initiative or vision. Her personality and training in the Home Office is about security and control.

    On the other hand, who could do a better job?
    Please don’t say Boris, JRM, Davis, or Fox.
    Gove.

    Or more likely Boris only as the front-man to more serious people behind him (like Gove in the referendum).
    Gove played the key role in turning support for leaving the EU into a mainstream position. This is his mess.
    And he would be the best one to own it instead of being relegated behind people like May.

    He had the vision for Brexit. May did not. He should be leading our negotiations.
    Gove would not have any goodwill from the Commission or other European leaders because of his explicit attempt to destroy the EU.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 24,921

    HHemmelig said:

    It's not but we have an impotent Remainer as PM who threw away Cameron's majority.
    For which the country, and the Tory party, should be eternally grateful. An impotent remainer can do far less damage to both than an idealogical leaver. Imperfect as she may be, May is all that stands in the way of the twin disasters of PM Corbyn or PM Mogg. Shudder.
    PM Gove or even (shudder) PM Boris would have been better.

    They had a positive and open vision of a liberal Britain.

    Instead May with the fake zeal of the covert portrayed a vicious, nasty and insular anti-migration red line Britain and gave no positivity whatsoever. That's been a disaster.
    +1 except I don’t think Boris could do it. Gove, absolutely.

    I still think Gove/Hunt would be my dream ticket. Trouble is they aren’t much more popular than Osborne.
  • SlackbladderSlackbladder Posts: 6,195

    HHemmelig said:

    It's not but we have an impotent Remainer as PM who threw away Cameron's majority.
    For which the country, and the Tory party, should be eternally grateful. An impotent remainer can do far less damage to both than an idealogical leaver. Imperfect as she may be, May is all that stands in the way of the twin disasters of PM Corbyn or PM Mogg. Shudder.
    PM Gove or even (shudder) PM Boris would have been better.

    They had a positive and open vision of a liberal Britain.

    Instead May with the fake zeal of the covert portrayed a vicious, nasty and insular anti-migration red line Britain and gave no positivity whatsoever. That's been a disaster.
    With your last para you put your finger on exactly why Remainers like me have failed to “come around” to the project.
    It's a case not so much of 'what you do its the way that you do it'. We should have been much more positive, open and pro-active. I think most people are not 'anti-migration', but 'anti-people taking advantage of us'.
  • Scott_PScott_P Posts: 37,802

    Norway isn't in the Customs Union
    Switzerland isn't in the Customs Union

    There's no need to be in one.

    Both countries known for their extensive car industries.

    Oh, wait...
  • HHemmeligHHemmelig Posts: 617

    It's not but we have an impotent Remainer as PM who threw away Cameron's majority.
    The biggest factor in why things have played out the way they have is that the EU has remained solid. A different PM or a majority government wouldn’t have changed that.
    When Theresa May carries all the authority of a wet sponge of course they have.

    When Theresa May has shown zero initiative in setting out her own position of course they have.

    The EU spent ages saying to Britain "what do you want" while May spent ages saying "what will you offer" until eventually the EU set out its position. A confident PM let alone one with a healthy majority should have put out from the start a positive vision of what we were seeking and the EU could and would have worked with that. The EU's own actions show that.
    A pound to a penny your "positive vision" for Brexit would enrage half the country. Ditto the views of a staunch remainer such as myself. May knows she needs a Brexit which the country can get behind or it will be a total disaster both for the country and her party. With the country split pretty much 50-50 that's close to impossible. In those circumstances delay, caution and muddling through are probably the least worst option. Certainly preferable to a Mogg or Boris eagerly pushing us over a cliff.
  • GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 2,731
    philiph said:

    It's not but we have an impotent Remainer as PM who threw away Cameron's majority.
    The biggest factor in why things have played out the way they have is that the EU has remained solid. A different PM or a majority government wouldn’t have changed that.
    When Theresa May carries all the authority of a wet sponge of course they have.

    When Theresa May has shown zero initiative in setting out her own position of course they have.

    The EU spent ages saying to Britain "what do you want" while May spent ages saying "what will you offer" until eventually the EU set out its position. A confident PM let alone one with a healthy majority should have put out from the start a positive vision of what we were seeking and the EU could and would have worked with that. The EU's own actions show that.
    I actually think that’s fair.

    Not because she is/was a Remainer, though, but because she doesn’t do initiative or vision. Her personality and training in the Home Office is about security and control.

    On the other hand, who could do a better job?
    Please don’t say Boris, JRM, Davis, or Fox.
    Gove.

    Or more likely Boris only as the front-man to more serious people behind him (like Gove in the referendum).
    Gove really isn't in possession of the qualities required for a public facing number 1. He is much more suited to a position of number two or three in a more sheltered position from public gaze.

    It is what Cameron did so well, the public facing bit, and leaving the detail, plans and thoughts to others (Ozzy, Gove etc) who lacked charisma and easy charm.
    I think Johnson is a figure of ridicule and contempt.

    Javid could do it, with Gove behind him.
  • SlackbladderSlackbladder Posts: 6,195
    One thing the Home office needs is total reform.

    Surely a simple rule like 'If you've been in the UK for over say 20 years, we will consider you to be British' isn't that difficult, and would have solved at a stroke the Windrush issue.
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 14,190

    HHemmelig said:

    It's not but we have an impotent Remainer as PM who threw away Cameron's majority.
    For which the country, and the Tory party, should be eternally grateful. An impotent remainer can do far less damage to both than an idealogical leaver. Imperfect as she may be, May is all that stands in the way of the twin disasters of PM Corbyn or PM Mogg. Shudder.
    PM Gove or even (shudder) PM Boris would have been better.

    They had a positive and open vision of a liberal Britain.

    Instead May with the fake zeal of the covert portrayed a vicious, nasty and insular anti-migration red line Britain and gave no positivity whatsoever. That's been a disaster.
    With your last para you put your finger on exactly why Remainers like me have failed to “come around” to the project.
    May was never part of "the project".
  • SlackbladderSlackbladder Posts: 6,195

    philiph said:

    It's not but we have an impotent Remainer as PM who threw away Cameron's majority.
    The biggest factor in why things have played out the way they have is that the EU has remained solid. A different PM or a majority government wouldn’t have changed that.
    When Theresa May carries all the authority of a wet sponge of course they have.

    When Theresa May has shown zero initiative in setting out her own position of course they have.

    The EU spent ages saying to Britain "what do you want" while May spent ages saying "what will you offer" until eventually the EU set out its position. A confident PM let alone one with a healthy majority should have put out from the start a positive vision of what we were seeking and the EU could and would have worked with that. The EU's own actions show that.
    I actually think that’s fair.

    Not because she is/was a Remainer, though, but because she doesn’t do initiative or vision. Her personality and training in the Home Office is about security and control.

    On the other hand, who could do a better job?
    Please don’t say Boris, JRM, Davis, or Fox.
    Gove.

    Or more likely Boris only as the front-man to more serious people behind him (like Gove in the referendum).
    Gove really isn't in possession of the qualities required for a public facing number 1. He is much more suited to a position of number two or three in a more sheltered position from public gaze.

    It is what Cameron did so well, the public facing bit, and leaving the detail, plans and thoughts to others (Ozzy, Gove etc) who lacked charisma and easy charm.
    I think Johnson is a figure of ridicule and contempt.

    Javid could do it, with Gove behind him.
    Gove should be COTE. Thats more than suited to his talents, and might actually get some changes to the economic and our tax systems in place.
  • rkrkrkrkrkrk Posts: 4,425



    Norway isn't in the Customs Union
    Switzerland isn't in the Customs Union

    There's no need to be in one.

    Why has this issue paralysed the govt then?
    Why are businesses banging on and on about it?
  • HHemmeligHHemmelig Posts: 617

    philiph said:

    It's not but we have an impotent Remainer as PM who threw away Cameron's majority.
    The biggest factor in why things have played out the way they have is that the EU has remained solid. A different PM or a majority government wouldn’t have changed that.
    When Theresa May carries all the authority of a wet sponge of course they have.

    When Theresa May has shown zero initiative in setting out her own position of course they have.

    The EU spent ages saying to Britain "what do you want" while May spent ages saying "what will you offer" until eventually the EU set out its position. A confident PM let alone one with a healthy majority should have put out from the start a positive vision of what we were seeking and the EU could and would have worked with that. The EU's own actions show that.
    I actually think that’s fair.

    Not because she is/was a Remainer, though, but because she doesn’t do initiative or vision. Her personality and training in the Home Office is about security and control.

    On the other hand, who could do a better job?
    Please don’t say Boris, JRM, Davis, or Fox.
    Gove.

    Or more likely Boris only as the front-man to more serious people behind him (like Gove in the referendum).
    Gove really isn't in possession of the qualities required for a public facing number 1. He is much more suited to a position of number two or three in a more sheltered position from public gaze.

    It is what Cameron did so well, the public facing bit, and leaving the detail, plans and thoughts to others (Ozzy, Gove etc) who lacked charisma and easy charm.
    I think Johnson is a figure of ridicule and contempt.

    Javid could do it, with Gove behind him.
    Spot on
  • GIN1138GIN1138 Posts: 11,539

    GIN1138 said:

    It's not but we have an impotent Remainer as PM who threw away Cameron's majority.
    Theresa's been a real letdown hasn't she? :(
    I remember the days when I was criticised for calling Theresa May a pound shop Gordon Brown.
    What can I say, I like to be fair and give the benefit of the doubt....
This discussion has been closed.