Is the latest climbdown from May to claim that neither customs model will work, but that perhaps max fac will work in several years and therefore we have no choice but to sign up to a continuation of *a* customs union which replicates *the* customs union with some fudgey words around it to satisfy Ireland, the EU, the DUP, and the ERG?
Basically, a reformulation of what we agreed in December?
From the Downing Street press conference: Theresa May has "no preference", "no plans" and "no timeframe" for dealing with customs.
Gammon has been in common parlance ever since the infamous "Wall of Gammon" episode of QT where nine late middle aged white men with high blood pressure expressed a preference for leaving the EU.
You can easily work out who the PB.com gammons are...
And you've been paying attention.....the average voter (quite sensibly) less so....
Well, quite.
One of my beliefs is that actually the U.K. could concede every point, *including* FOM to the EU, and if worded properly, no one would notice.
No way, ending FOM is non negotiable and the main reason Leave got over 50%
Just call it FOW (Freedom to Work) and no one would care. Honestly.
They would given it was Eastern Europeans coming over to work without transition controls in 2004 and undercutting low income workers wages which was a pivotal reason for the Leave vote
Why is it necessary to insult those with whom one politically disagrees? Really, why?
Calling older white men "gammon". How childish. Imagine if you called older black men something food and colour related in a sneering way because of their views.
We're expected to understand why people feel they way they do and respect their views, religions, ways of life on the one hand and on the other it's permissible to insult people in this country just because they don't live in London and don't think the sun shines out of the arse of those who have done very well for themselves.
Why not try a bit of listening and understanding for a change. Maybe it won't change people's minds. But maybe just maybe people might understand that diversity applies to people's opinions just as much as to their lifestyles.
I am one of those who have done well and live in London. But I find myself embarrassed by the condescending sneering and dismissal by people like me of those who are not as fortunate as me. It does not reflect well on those who do it.
And if I have done it to others, well I apologise in advance. I'm only human and make mistakes. A bit of generosity others would not go amiss now and then.
The Gammon Faced insult is most certainly a racial insult. We can argue whether or not that's fine and maybe some racial insults are acceptable, but it is what it is.
To attribute a value and moral worth of an individual due to a set of genetic characteristics that they have no part in and are only evident due to their skin colour, if applied to any other group would be roundly condemned.
How long will it take for the left to work out that identity politics only works when those not in a minority dont know the rules. Brexit in the UK and Trump in the USA have shown very much what happens when the majority work it out.
Gammon has been in common parlance ever since the infamous "Wall of Gammon" episode of QT where nine late middle aged white men with high blood pressure expressed a preference for leaving the EU.
You can easily work out who the PB.com gammons are...
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/brexit-uk-summit-why-join-eu-balkans-serbia-albania-berlin-process-a8347111.html Tom Brake, the Liberal Democrats’ Brexit spokesperson and a supporter of the Best for Britain campaign, said: “Someone at the Foreign Office must have a sense of humour in organising a conference to promote membership of the EU for the Western Balkan countries. Just as we seem set on leaving the EU, we start advising others to join. Government policy would not look out of place in the theatre of the absurd.”
Gammon has been in common parlance ever since the infamous "Wall of Gammon" episode of QT where nine late middle aged white men with high blood pressure expressed a preference for leaving the EU.
You can easily work out who the PB.com gammons are...
Now imagine those people were from ethnic minorities, or were women......
In a world where using the wrong pronoun to identify somebody is horridiously offensive or wearing a dress of Chinese origin is cultural appropriation....this is ok?
What an incredibly dishonest segment last night by John Oliver on Venezuela. Apparently their problems have nothing to do with socialism and very little to do with Chavez....Apparently it is all to do with inflation (which has nothing to do with socialism), corruption (which has nothing to do with socialism), mismanagement (which has nothing to do with socialism). and the main fault is laid at the current presidents door.
That was a really weird piece, it’s wasn't really made clear what are the problems, the causes of the problems or the solutions to them - except that the top guy likes his food and others don’t have that luxury.
Why is it necessary to insult those with whom one politically disagrees? Really, why?
Calling older white men "gammon". How childish. Imagine if you called older black men something food and colour related in a sneering way because of their views.
We're expected to understand why people feel they way they do and respect their views, religions, ways of life on the one hand and on the other it's permissible to insult people in this country just because they don't live in London and don't think the sun shines out of the arse of those who have done very well for themselves.
Why not try a bit of listening and understanding for a change. Maybe it won't change people's minds. But maybe just maybe people might understand that diversity applies to people's opinions just as much as to their lifestyles.
I am one of those who have done well and live in London. But I find myself embarrassed by the condescending sneering and dismissal by people like me of those who are not as fortunate as me. It does not reflect well on those who do it.
And if I have done it to others, well I apologise in advance. I'm only human and make mistakes. A bit of generosity others would not go amiss now and then.
Why is it necessary to insult those with whom one politically disagrees? Really, why?
Calling older white men "gammon". How childish. Imagine if you called older black men something food and colour related in a sneering way because of their views.
We're expected to understand why people feel they way they do and respect their views, religions, ways of life on the one hand and on the other it's permissible to insult people in this country just because they don't live in London and don't think the sun shines out of the arse of those who have done very well for themselves.
Why not try a bit of listening and understanding for a change. Maybe it won't change people's minds. But maybe just maybe people might understand that diversity applies to people's opinions just as much as to their lifestyles.
I am one of those who have done well and live in London. But I find myself embarrassed by the condescending sneering and dismissal by people like me of those who are not as fortunate as me. It does not reflect well on those who do it.
And if I have done it to others, well I apologise in advance. I'm only human and make mistakes. A bit of generosity others would not go amiss now and then.
The Gammon Faced insult is most certainly a racial insult. We can argue whether or not that's fine and maybe some racial insults are acceptable, but it is what it is.
To attribute a value and moral worth of an individual due to a set of genetic characteristics that they have no part in and are only evident due to their skin colour, if applied to any other group would be roundly condemned.
How long will it take for the left to work out that identity politics only works when those not in a minority dont know the rules. Brexit in the UK and Trump in the USA have shown very much what happens when the majority work it out.
Rubbish. It’s very good shorthand. As I say upthread, you can’t just be white to be gammon. You have to be
White Angry Working class / lower middle class Dyspeptic / near coronary in colour Pro Brexit or similar (hanging etc)
Gammon has been in common parlance ever since the infamous "Wall of Gammon" episode of QT where nine late middle aged white men with high blood pressure expressed a preference for leaving the EU.
You can easily work out who the PB.com gammons are...
Now imagine those people were from ethnic minorities, or were women......
In a world where using the wrong pronoun to identify somebody is horridiously offensive or wearing a dress of Chinese origin is cultural appropriation....this is ok?
What an incredibly dishonest segment last night by John Oliver on Venezuela. Apparently their problems have nothing to do with socialism and very little to do with Chavez....Apparently it is all to do with inflation (which has nothing to do with socialism), corruption (which has nothing to do with socialism), mismanagement (which has nothing to do with socialism). and the main fault is laid at the current presidents door.
John Oliver is a comedian that dabbles in politics but despite what his obsequious and relatively small social media following might think, his views on Venezuela are no more educated or informative than anything James Corden might spout about Syria.
Gammon has been in common parlance ever since the infamous "Wall of Gammon" episode of QT where nine late middle aged white men with high blood pressure expressed a preference for leaving the EU.
You can easily work out who the PB.com gammons are...
What an incredibly dishonest segment last night by John Oliver on Venezuela. Apparently their problems have nothing to do with socialism and very little to do with Chavez....Apparently it is all to do with inflation (which has nothing to do with socialism), corruption (which has nothing to do with socialism), mismanagement (which has nothing to do with socialism). and the main fault is laid at the current presidents door.
That was a really weird piece, it’s wasn't really made clear what are the problems, the causes of the problems or the solutions to them - except that the top guy likes his food and others don’t have that luxury.
He just couldn't admit that the core issue with the socialist policies of Chavez led to spending money they didn't have and when the oil price fell they were left naked like a skinny dipper when the tide has gone out.
Simon Reeves piece from years ago, who does those travel programmes and not exactly a ring winger, said it was the worst country he had ever visited (and that included war torn ones). Massive poverty, massive corruption, massive mismanagement, massive crime, and total useless government.
Why is it necessary to insult those with whom one politically disagrees? Really, why?
Calling older white men "gammon". How childish. Imagine if you called older black men something food and colour related in a sneering way because of their views.
We're expected to understand why people feel they way they do and respect their views, religions, ways of life on the one hand and on the other it's permissible to insult people in this country just because they don't live in London and don't think the sun shines out of the arse of those who have done very well for themselves.
Why not try a bit of listening and understanding for a change. Maybe it won't change people's minds. But maybe just maybe people might understand that diversity applies to people's opinions just as much as to their lifestyles.
I am one of those who have done well and live in London. But I find myself embarrassed by the condescending sneering and dismissal by people like me of those who are not as fortunate as me. It does not reflect well on those who do it.
And if I have done it to others, well I apologise in advance. I'm only human and make mistakes. A bit of generosity others would not go amiss now and then.
The Gammon Faced insult is most certainly a racial insult. We can argue whether or not that's fine and maybe some racial insults are acceptable, but it is what it is.
To attribute a value and moral worth of an individual due to a set of genetic characteristics that they have no part in and are only evident due to their skin colour, if applied to any other group would be roundly condemned.
How long will it take for the left to work out that identity politics only works when those not in a minority dont know the rules. Brexit in the UK and Trump in the USA have shown very much what happens when the majority work it out.
Rubbish. It’s very good shorthand. As I say upthread, you can’t just be white to be gammon. You have to be
White Angry Working class / lower middle class Dyspeptic / near coronary in colour Pro Brexit or similar (hanging etc)
It’s the new white van man.
I don't really think anyone should care about 'gammon', it's just a meme a few people are using and it's not exactly known beyond a small percentage of the internet let alone the country. I somewhat doubt anyone will use it in a few months time and I doubt the working class it insults spend enough time in the student politics sphere of twitter to be aware of the phrase as meaning anything other than a reasonably tasty piece of meat.
Gammon has been in common parlance ever since the infamous "Wall of Gammon" episode of QT where nine late middle aged white men with high blood pressure expressed a preference for leaving the EU.
You can easily work out who the PB.com gammons are...
Now imagine those people were from ethnic minorities, or were women......
In a world where using the wrong pronoun to identify somebody is horridiously offensive or wearing a dress of Chinese origin is cultural appropriation....this is ok?
Well.
Quite.
I did have to chuckle at the big youtube guy who lives in China. He went around asking random members of the public in China what did they think of westerners wearing traditional Chinese clothing...lets just say the PC police would not be happy...basically if they are tall, slim and good looking, all for it...no fatties though.
What an incredibly dishonest segment last night by John Oliver on Venezuela. Apparently their problems have nothing to do with socialism and very little to do with Chavez....Apparently it is all to do with inflation (which has nothing to do with socialism), corruption (which has nothing to do with socialism), mismanagement (which has nothing to do with socialism). and the main fault is laid at the current presidents door.
John Oliver is a comedian that dabbles in politics but despite what his obsequious and relatively small social media following might think, his views on Venezuela are no more educated or informative than anything James Corden might spout about Syria.
He now has a massive team researching this stuff. What struck me was literally the opening sentence was, now lots of reasons, but socialism is definitely not one of them, as other socialist countries that aren't struggling like Venezuela.
Gammon has been in common parlance ever since the infamous "Wall of Gammon" episode of QT where nine late middle aged white men with high blood pressure expressed a preference for leaving the EU.
You can easily work out who the PB.com gammons are...
Now imagine those people were from ethnic minorities, or were women......
In a world where using the wrong pronoun to identify somebody is horridiously offensive or wearing a dress of Chinese origin is cultural appropriation....this is ok?
Well.
Quite.
The UK left have clearly learnt precisely nothing from what happened in the US in 2016.
And you've been paying attention.....the average voter (quite sensibly) less so....
Well, quite.
One of my beliefs is that actually the U.K. could concede every point, *including* FOM to the EU, and if worded properly, no one would notice.
No way, ending FOM is non negotiable and the main reason Leave got over 50%
Just call it FOW (Freedom to Work) and no one would care. Honestly.
They would given it was Eastern Europeans coming over to work without transition controls in 2004 and undercutting low income workers wages which was a pivotal reason for the Leave vote
Any transition controls would have long since expired by the time of the referendum anyway.
1. David Miliband is a waste of space. Profoundly uninspiring. He will change nobody’s mind, in fact he may even lose Remain voters.
2. I personally find “gammon” hilarious. Contra to rumour, though, it doesn’t describe all white males over 50, just dyspeptic ones who turn up to QT and rant in favour of Brexit.
It'd take all my strength to vote 'remain' again if any second campaign was lead by Mr Miliband.
Is the latest climbdown from May to claim that neither customs model will work, but that perhaps max fac will work in several years and therefore we have no choice but to sign up to a continuation of *a* customs union which replicates *the* customs union with some fudgey words around it to satisfy Ireland, the EU, the DUP, and the ERG?
Basically, a reformulation of what we agreed in December?
Working on MaxFac and extending a transition on the CU would make tons of sense. I suspect it'll be the compromise.
Working towards NCP would be a dreadful decision; doing that and extending the transition would, I suspect, lead to events...
I think I’m the only Remainer here who wants out of the CU.
But, if we agree an extended CU transition, where does it leave Mr Fox and the hundreds of FTAs we will have signed on “Day 1”?
Not enough credit is given to you for having your own mind on Brexit,IMHO.
1. David Miliband is a waste of space. Profoundly uninspiring. He will change nobody’s mind, in fact he may even lose Remain voters.
2. I personally find “gammon” hilarious. Contra to rumour, though, it doesn’t describe all white males over 50, just dyspeptic ones who turn up to QT and rant in favour of Brexit.
It'd take all my strength to vote 'remain' again if any second campaign was lead by Mr Miliband.
As a Leaver, it would be manna from heaven. If Blair could play a leading role, we’d exceed 60%.
A fine tribute to English..err..British history. Rumours that future vessels are to be named Mers El Kébir, The Falaise Gap, The Massacre of Drogheda and Flodden have yet to be confirmed.
Considering that Agincourt is about as well know in France as Formigny is in England and took place in a war which France won I doubt the French would be too concerned.
Now if they used names such as Quebec, Plassey, Wandiwash, Minden, Warburg, Lagos and Quiberon Bay ...
How jolly but leaving aside the Polhome hysteria, why does it matter? Has Theresa May handed over Brexit negotiations to Her Majesty's Loyal Opposition?
Why is it necessary to insult those with whom one politically disagrees? Really, why?
Calling older white men "gammon". How childish. Imagine if you called older black men something food and colour related in a sneering way because of their views.
We're expected to understand why people feel they way they do and respect their views, religions, ways of life on the one hand and on the other it's permissible to insult people in this country just because they don't live in London and don't think the sun shines out of the arse of those who have done very well for themselves.
Why not try a bit of listening and understanding for a change. Maybe it won't change people's minds. But maybe just maybe people might understand that diversity applies to people's opinions just as much as to their lifestyles.
I am one of those who have done well and live in London. But I find myself embarrassed by the condescending sneering and dismissal by people like me of those who are not as fortunate as me. It does not reflect well on those who do it.
And if I have done it to others, well I apologise in advance. I'm only human and make mistakes. A bit of generosity others would not go amiss now and then.
The Gammon Faced insult is most certainly a racial insult. We can argue whether or not that's fine and maybe some racial insults are acceptable, but it is what it is.
To attribute a value and moral worth of an individual due to a set of genetic characteristics that they have no part in and are only evident due to their skin colour, if applied to any other group would be roundly condemned.
How long will it take for the left to work out that identity politics only works when those not in a minority dont know the rules. Brexit in the UK and Trump in the USA have shown very much what happens when the majority work it out.
Rubbish. It’s very good shorthand. As I say upthread, you can’t just be white to be gammon. You have to be
White Angry Working class / lower middle class Dyspeptic / near coronary in colour Pro Brexit or similar (hanging etc)
It’s the new white van man.
Go for it. This is about attributing a set of characteristics that they have no control over to a set of views. Just try doing that to any other race. Go on. Do it.
But carry on its fine. The contempt is dripping. You would be surprised just how well voters can sniff out contempt.
Why is it necessary to insult those with whom one politically disagrees? Really, why?
Calling older white men "gammon". How childish. Imagine if you called older black men something food and colour related in a sneering way because of their views.
We're expected to understand why people feel they way they do and respect their views, religions, ways of life on the one hand and on the other it's permissible to insult people in this country just because they don't live in London and don't think the sun shines out of the arse of those who have done very well for themselves.
Why not try a bit of listening and understanding for a change. Maybe it won't change people's minds. But maybe just maybe people might understand that diversity applies to people's opinions just as much as to their lifestyles.
I am one of those who have done well and live in London. But I find myself embarrassed by the condescending sneering and dismissal by people like me of those who are not as fortunate as me. It does not reflect well on those who do it.
And if I have done it to others, well I apologise in advance. I'm only human and make mistakes. A bit of generosity others would not go amiss now and then.
The Gammon Faced insult is most certainly a racial insult. We can argue whether or not that's fine and maybe some racial insults are acceptable, but it is what it is.
To attribute a value and moral worth of an individual due to a set of genetic characteristics that they have no part in and are only evident due to their skin colour, if applied to any other group would be roundly condemned.
How long will it take for the left to work out that identity politics only works when those not in a minority dont know the rules. Brexit in the UK and Trump in the USA have shown very much what happens when the majority work it out.
Rubbish. It’s very good shorthand. As I say upthread, you can’t just be white to be gammon. You have to be
White Angry Working class / lower middle class Dyspeptic / near coronary in colour Pro Brexit or similar (hanging etc)
It’s the new white van man.
Simpler than that: just vociferously opposed to Corbyn, white, and for that opposition to be noted by a Corbynista.
Not sure if it's already been mentioned regarding Mike's piece but surely more relevant information would be if the fanbases of the clubs are leave or remain. Given football (despite the high prices) remains predominantly a working class male sport I would be amazed if the fanbase of any teams in The Premier League with the exceptions of Arsenal (high amount of rich and BAME support) and Everton (support largely taken from within 58% remain Liverpool) were majority remain.
I would be staggered if Manchester City who topped the league did not have a predominantly leave supporting fanbase when you consider the profile of the fans and the referendum results across Greater Manchester.
City were 50-50 according to this [random number generator] poll. The fans of Man Utd, Liverpool and Arsenal were mostly Remainers.
Why is it necessary to insult those with whom one politically disagrees? Really, why?
Calling older white men "gammon". How childish. Imagine if you called older black men something food and colour related in a sneering way because of their views.
We're expected to understand why people feel they way they do and respect their views, religions, ways of life on the one hand and on the other it's permissible to insult people in this country just because they don't live in London and don't think the sun shines out of the arse of those who have done very well for themselves.
Why not try a bit of listening and understanding for a change. Maybe it won't change people's minds. But maybe just maybe people might understand that diversity applies to people's opinions just as much as to their lifestyles.
I am one of those who have done well and live in London. But I find myself embarrassed by the condescending sneering and dismissal by people like me of those who are not as fortunate as me. It does not reflect well on those who do it.
And if I have done it to others, well I apologise in advance. I'm only human and make mistakes. A bit of generosity others would not go amiss now and then.
The Gammon Faced insult is most certainly a racial insult. We can argue whether or not that's fine and maybe some racial insults are acceptable, but it is what it is.
To attribute a value and moral worth of an individual due to a set of genetic characteristics that they have no part in and are only evident due to their skin colour, if applied to any other group would be roundly condemned.
How long will it take for the left to work out that identity politics only works when those not in a minority dont know the rules. Brexit in the UK and Trump in the USA have shown very much what happens when the majority work it out.
Rubbish. It’s very good shorthand. As I say upthread, you can’t just be white to be gammon. You have to be
White Angry Working class / lower middle class Dyspeptic / near coronary in colour Pro Brexit or similar (hanging etc)
It’s the new white van man.
I don't really think anyone should care about 'gammon', it's just a meme a few people are using and it's not exactly known beyond a small percentage of the internet let alone the country. I somewhat doubt anyone will use it in a few months time and I doubt the working class it insults spend enough time in the student politics sphere of twitter to be aware of the phrase as meaning anything other than a reasonably tasty piece of meat.
Agree except not a big fan of gammon. Still pigs give us bacon and pork belly, asking for gammon to be as delicious would be too much.
Why is it necessary to insult those with whom one politically disagrees? Really, why?
Calling older white men "gammon". How childish. Imagine if you called older black men something food and colour related in a sneering way because of their views.
We're expected to understand why people feel they way they do and respect their views, religions, ways of life on the one hand and on the other it's permissible to insult people in this country just because they don't live in London and don't think the sun shines out of the arse of those who have done very well for themselves.
Why not try a bit of listening and understanding for a change. Maybe it won't change people's minds. But maybe just maybe people might understand that diversity applies to people's opinions just as much as to their lifestyles.
I am one of those who have done well and live in London. But I find myself embarrassed by the condescending sneering and dismissal by people like me of those who are not as fortunate as me. It does not reflect well on those who do it.
And if I have done it to others, well I apologise in advance. I'm only human and make mistakes. A bit of generosity others would not go amiss now and then.
The Gammon Faced insult is most certainly a racial insult. We can argue whether or not that's fine and maybe some racial insults are acceptable, but it is what it is.
To attribute a value and moral worth of an individual due to a set of genetic characteristics that they have no part in and are only evident due to their skin colour, if applied to any other group would be roundly condemned.
How long will it take for the left to work out that identity politics only works when those not in a minority dont know the rules. Brexit in the UK and Trump in the USA have shown very much what happens when the majority work it out.
Rubbish. It’s very good shorthand. As I say upthread, you can’t just be white to be gammon. You have to be
White Angry Working class / lower middle class Dyspeptic / near coronary in colour Pro Brexit or similar (hanging etc)
It’s the new white van man.
Simpler than that: just vociferously opposed to Corbyn, white, and for that opposition to be noted by a Corbynista.
The FBPE people on twitter also dislike Corbyn intensely, but aren’t referred to as ‘gammons’. In fact, they actually use the term themselves.
And you've been paying attention.....the average voter (quite sensibly) less so....
Well, quite.
One of my beliefs is that actually the U.K. could concede every point, *including* FOM to the EU, and if worded properly, no one would notice.
No way, ending FOM is non negotiable and the main reason Leave got over 50%
Just call it FOW (Freedom to Work) and no one would care. Honestly.
They would given it was Eastern Europeans coming over to work without transition controls in 2004 and undercutting low income workers wages which was a pivotal reason for the Leave vote
Any transition controls would have long since expired by the time of the referendum anyway.
So what the problem would largely have been resolved by then and the transition controls would have expired for all EU nations anyway.
It was the UK being almost alone amongst EU/EEA nations in not imposing transition controls on free movement from 2004 to 2011 which saw so many Easten European migrants come here over that timeframe
Why is it necessary to insult those with whom one politically disagrees? Really, why?
Calling older white men "gammon". How childish. Imagine if you called older black men something food
The Gammon Faced insult is most certainly a racial insult. We can argue whether or not that's fine and maybe some racial insults are acceptable, but it is what it is.
To attribute a value and moral worth of an individual due to a set of genetic characteristics that they have no part in and are only evident due to their skin colour, if applied to any other group would be roundly condemned.
How long will it take for the left to work out that identity politics only works when those not in a minority dont know the rules. Brexit in the UK and Trump in the USA have shown very much what happens when the majority work it out.
Rubbish. It’s very good shorthand. As I say upthread, you can’t just be white to be gammon. You have to be
White Angry Working class / lower middle class Dyspeptic / near coronary in colour Pro Brexit or similar (hanging etc)
It’s the new white van man.
I don't really think anyone should care about 'gammon', it's just a meme a few people are using and it's not exactly known beyond a small percentage of the internet let alone the country. I somewhat doubt anyone will use it in a few months time and I doubt the working class it insults spend enough time in the student politics sphere of twitter to be aware of the phrase as meaning anything other than a reasonably tasty piece of meat.
Agree except not a big fan of gammon. Still pigs give us bacon and pork belly, asking for gammon to be as delicious would be too much.
Just had spaghetti carbonara for lunch. Is that enough to make me gammon? Confused.
Gammon has been in common parlance ever since the infamous "Wall of Gammon" episode of QT where nine late middle aged white men with high blood pressure expressed a preference for leaving the EU.
You can easily work out who the PB.com gammons are...
Who are they?
Look closely. Surely you can guess who the 20p is.
Is the latest climbdown from May to claim that neither customs model will work, but that perhaps max fac will work in several years and therefore we have no choice but to sign up to a continuation of *a* customs union which replicates *the* customs union with some fudgey words around it to satisfy Ireland, the EU, the DUP, and the ERG?
Basically, a reformulation of what we agreed in December?
Working on MaxFac and extending a transition on the CU would make tons of sense. I suspect it'll be the compromise.
Working towards NCP would be a dreadful decision; doing that and extending the transition would, I suspect, lead to events...
I think I’m the only Remainer here who wants out of the CU.
But, if we agree an extended CU transition, where does it leave Mr Fox and the hundreds of FTAs we will have signed on “Day 1”?
Not enough credit is given to you for having your own mind on Brexit,IMHO.
Why is it necessary to insult those with whom one politically disagrees? Really, why?
Calling older white men "gammon". How childish. Imagine if you called older black men something food and colour related in a sneering way because of their views.
We're expected to understand why people feel they way they do and respect their views, religions, ways of life on the one hand and on the other it's permissible to insult people in this country just because they don't live in London and don't think the sun shines out of the arse of those who have done very well for themselves.
Why not try a bit of listening and understanding for a change. Maybe it won't change people's minds. But maybe just maybe people might understand that diversity applies to people's opinions just as much as to their lifestyles.
I am one of those who have done well and live in London. But I find myself embarrassed by the condescending sneering and dismissal by people like me of those who are not as fortunate as me. It does not reflect well on those who do it.
And if I have done it to others, well I apologise in advance. I'm only human and make mistakes. A bit of generosity others would not go amiss now and then.
The Gammon Faced insult is most certainly a racial insult. We can argue whether or not that's fine and maybe some racial insults are acceptable, but it is what it is.
To attribute a value and moral worth of an individual due to a set of genetic characteristics that they have no part in and are only evident due to their skin colour, if applied to any other group would be roundly condemned.
How long will it take for the left to work out that identity politics only works when those not in a minority dont know the rules. Brexit in the UK and Trump in the USA have shown very much what happens when the majority work it out.
Rubbish. It’s very good shorthand. As I say upthread, you can’t just be white to be gammon. You have to be
White Angry Working class / lower middle class Dyspeptic / near coronary in colour Pro Brexit or similar (hanging etc)
It’s the new white van man.
It's an example of a classic strategy of extremist, close minded groups. Rather than deal with arguments, you instead label the people making them in a derogatory way, demonstrating to your group members that they can be dismissed without consideration. Also see "neoliberals", "wets", "centrist Dads", "mansplainer" etc.
Why is it necessary to insult those with whom one politically disagrees? Really, why?
Calling older white men "gammon". How childish. Imagine if you called older black men something food and colour related in a sneering way because of their views.
We're expected to understand why people feel they way they do and respect their views, religions, .
I am one of those who have done well and live in London. But I find myself embarrassed by the condescending sneering and dismissal by people like me of those who are not as fortunate as me. It does not reflect well on those who do it.
And if I have done it to others, well I apologise in advance. I'm only human and make mistakes. A bit of generosity others would not go amiss now and then.
The Gammon Faced insult is most certainly a racial insult. We can argue whether or not that's fine and maybe some racial insults are acceptable, but it is what it is.
To attribute a value and moral worth of an individual due to a set of genetic characteristics that they have no part in and are only evident due to their skin colour, if applied to any other group would be roundly condemned.
How long will it take for the left to work out that identity politics only works when those not in a minority dont know the rules. Brexit in the UK and Trump in the USA have shown very much what happens when the majority work it out.
Rubbish. It’s very good shorthand. As I say upthread, you can’t just be white to be gammon. You have to be
White Angry Working class / lower middle class Dyspeptic / near coronary in colour Pro Brexit or similar (hanging etc)
It’s the new white van man.
I don't really think anyone should care about 'gammon', it's just a meme a few people are using and it's not exactly known beyond a small percentage of the internet let alone the country. I somewhat doubt anyone will use it in a few months time and I doubt the working class it insults spend enough time in the student politics sphere of twitter to be aware of the phrase as meaning anything other than a reasonably tasty piece of meat.
Agree except not a big fan of gammon. Still pigs give us bacon and pork belly, asking for gammon to be as delicious would be too much.
Gammon with a slice of pineapple is even better than Pizza and pineapple !
And you've been paying attention.....the average voter (quite sensibly) less so....
Well, quite.
One of my beliefs is that actually the U.K. could concede every point, *including* FOM to the EU, and if worded properly, no one would notice.
No way, ending FOM is non negotiable and the main reason Leave got over 50%
Just call it FOW (Freedom to Work) and no one would care. Honestly.
They would given it was Eastern Europeans coming over to work without transition controls in 2004 and undercutting low income workers wages which was a pivotal reason for the Leave vote
Any transition controls would have long since expired by the time of the referendum anyway.
So what the problem would largely have been resolved by then and the transition controls would have expired for all EU nations anyway.
It was the UK being almost alone amongst EU/EEA nations in not imposing transition controls on free movement from 2004 to 2011 which saw so many Easten European migrants come here over that timeframe
I don't think that's right. The UK is widely seen as a society where outsiders can make a success of things among migrants. Not to the same extent as America, but certainly more than France or Germany.
Gammon has been in common parlance ever since the infamous "Wall of Gammon" episode of QT where nine late middle aged white men with high blood pressure expressed a preference for leaving the EU.
You can easily work out who the PB.com gammons are...
Who are they?
Look closely. Surely you can guess who the 20p is.
And you've been paying attention.....the average voter (quite sensibly) less so....
Well, quite.
One of my beliefs is that actually the U.K. could concede every point, *including* FOM to the EU, and if worded properly, no one would notice.
No way, ending FOM is non negotiable and the main reason Leave got over 50%
Just call it FOW (Freedom to Work) and no one would care. Honestly.
They would given it was Eastern Europeans coming over to work without transition controls in 2004 and undercutting low income workers wages which was a pivotal reason for the Leave vote
Any transition controls would have long since expired by the time of the referendum anyway.
So what the problem would largely have been resolved by then and the transition controls would have expired for all EU nations anyway.
It was the UK being almost alone amongst EU/EEA nations in not imposing transition controls on free movement from 2004 to 2011 which saw so many Easten European migrants come here over that timeframe
I don't think that's right. The UK is widely seen as a society where outsiders can make a success of things among migrants. Not to the same extent as America, but certainly more than France or Germany.
Regardless of how attractive we are to migrants that does not stop us putting proper controls on migration as we failed to do from 2004 to 2011 and most EU nations did
And you've been paying attention.....the average voter (quite sensibly) less so....
Well, quite.
One of my beliefs is that actually the U.K. could concede every point, *including* FOM to the EU, and if worded properly, no one would notice.
No way, ending FOM is non negotiable and the main reason Leave got over 50%
Just call it FOW (Freedom to Work) and no one would care. Honestly.
They would given it was Eastern Europeans coming over to work without transition controls in 2004 and undercutting low income workers wages which was a pivotal reason for the Leave vote
Any transition controls would have long since expired by the time of the referendum anyway.
So what the problem would largely have been resolved by then and the transition controls would have expired for all EU nations anyway.
It was the UK being almost alone amongst EU/EEA nations in not imposing transition controls on free movement from 2004 to 2011 which saw so many Easten European migrants come here over that timeframe
I don't think that's right. The UK is widely seen as a society where outsiders can make a success of things among migrants. Not to the same extent as America, but certainly more than France or Germany.
The big attraction of the UK is English. Almost everyone in Europe learns some English in school, and it is much easier to find work in a country where you can speak at least a little of the language.
Why is it necessary to insult those with whom one politically disagrees? Really, why?
Calling older white men "gammon". How childish. Imagine if you called older black men something food and colour related in a sneering way because of their views.
We're expected to understand why people feel they way they do and respect their views, religions, .
I am one of those who have done well and live in London. But I find myself embarrassed by the condescending sneering and dismissal by people like me of those who are not as fortunate as me. It does not reflect well on those who do it.
And if I have done it to others, well I apologise in advance. I'm only human and make mistakes. A bit of generosity others would not go amiss now and then.
The Gammon Faced insult is most certainly a racial insult. We can argue whether or not that's fine and maybe some racial insults are acceptable, but it is what it is.
To attribute a value and moral worth of an individual due to a set of genetic characteristics that they have no part in and are only evident due to their skin colour, if applied to any other group would be roundly condemned.
How long will it take for the left to work out that identity politics only works when those not in a minority dont know the rules. Brexit in the UK and Trump in the USA have shown very much what happens when the majority work it out.
Rubbish. It’s very good shorthand. As I say upthread, you can’t just be white to be gammon. You have to be
White Angry Working class / lower middle class Dyspeptic / near coronary in colour Pro Brexit or similar (hanging etc)
It’s the new white van man.
I don't really think anyone should care about 'gammon', it's just a meme a few people are using and it's not exactly known beyond a small percentage of the internet let alone the country. I somewhat doubt anyone will use it in a few months time and I doubt the working class it insults spend enough time in the student politics sphere of twitter to be aware of the phrase as meaning anything other than a reasonably tasty piece of meat.
Agree except not a big fan of gammon. Still pigs give us bacon and pork belly, asking for gammon to be as delicious would be too much.
Gammon with a slice of pineapple is even better than Pizza and pineapple !
But please do not cook the pineapple with the gammon so that it goes salty. That is properly rank.
re gammon.It's origin,as far as I can see, is from Caitlin Moran in 2012 -"David Cameron's resemblance to a slightly camp gammon robot is extraordinary. He's a C-3PO made of ham' http://thetim.es/SCX37I . It's the equivalent to, probably overfed, "pillock".Very mild.
Not sure if it's already been mentioned regarding Mike's piece but surely more relevant information would be if the fanbases of the clubs are leave or remain. Given football (despite the high prices) remains predominantly a working class male sport I would be amazed if the fanbase of any teams in The Premier League with the exceptions of Arsenal (high amount of rich and BAME support) and Everton (support largely taken from within 58% remain Liverpool) were majority remain.
I would be staggered if Manchester City who topped the league did not have a predominantly leave supporting fanbase when you consider the profile of the fans and the referendum results across Greater Manchester.
City were 50-50 according to this [random number generator] poll. The fans of Man Utd, Liverpool and Arsenal were mostly Remainers.
"gammon" is a charmless and contemptuous label used by those who don't want to engage with their arguments. Whether or not it is racist, it is unpleasant.
It is, however, highly amusing to see many who usually staunchly defend freedom of expression whenever similar derogatory terms are used for other out groups getting worked up about this one.
Gammon has been in common parlance ever since the infamous "Wall of Gammon" episode of QT where nine late middle aged white men with high blood pressure expressed a preference for leaving the EU.
You can easily work out who the PB.com gammons are...
Now imagine those people were from ethnic minorities, or were women......
In a world where using the wrong pronoun to identify somebody is horridiously offensive or wearing a dress of Chinese origin is cultural appropriation....this is ok?
Well.
Quite.
The UK left have clearly learnt precisely nothing from what happened in the US in 2016.
As it happens, there was an article about it in this morning's Times.
I take the view that you never interrupt an opponent when he's making a mistake. The far left are just reminding everyone of their true nature.
Mr. Meeks, the general consensus appears to have recently been that racial epithets are bad. Hence the outrage over Adonis retweeting a certain cartoon about Javid (which he then took down), and the 'coconut' comments aimed at Javid by others.
It seems legitimate to consider it unreasonable not to level equal condemnation when the likes of Lammy refer to 'white mansplaining', or others bang on about 'gammon'. It's incredible hypocrisy that some believe it's ok to make derogatory comments based on skin colour provided it's white people who are being insulted.
Mr. Meeks, the general consensus appears to have recently been that racial epithets are bad. Hence the outrage over Adonis retweeting a certain cartoon about Javid (which he then took down), and the 'coconut' comments aimed at Javid by others.
It seems legitimate to consider it unreasonable not to level equal condemnation when the likes of Lammy refer to 'white mansplaining', or others bang on about 'gammon'. It's incredible hypocrisy that some believe it's ok to make derogatory comments based on skin colour provided it's white people who are being insulted.
While I take your point, I'd prefer to let these people hoist themselves with their own petard.
Mr. F, whilst I see your point of view, there's a serious problem of normalising racially charged abuse in everyday political discourse, so I'd prefer it to end as soon as possible.
We've seen it against Javid specifically, and white people generally. And it isn't a good thing.
I paraphrase 'Trump is a moronic malevolent cu*t who is a danger to us all'
Who?
'When the wise man points to the moon only a fool looks at the finger'
Would this be the Jack Straw who, as Home Secretary, approved the rendition of Libyan dissidents to Libya where they were tortured, for which despicable acts the current government has had to apologise and pay compensation?
"gammon" is a charmless and contemptuous label used by those who don't want to engage with their arguments. Whether or not it is racist, it is unpleasant.
It is, however, highly amusing to see many who usually staunchly defend freedom of expression whenever similar derogatory terms are used for other out groups getting worked up about this one.
Well it definitely refers to the tone of their skin. Swivel eyed loon would however not, but it'd be bad form to make that observation about a sufferer of Graves disease if say they were an opponent of Anthropogenic Global Warming.
It's closer to 'Uncle Tom' and 'coconut' than 'frother' and 'snowflake' in terms of racial overtones.
"gammon" is a charmless and contemptuous label used by those who don't want to engage with their arguments. Whether or not it is racist, it is unpleasant.
It is, however, highly amusing to see many who usually staunchly defend freedom of expression whenever similar derogatory terms are used for other out groups getting worked up about this one.
There is a difference, as you well know, between being in favour of people being free to call others whatever they want, including nasty, unpleasant things (provided they don't incite violence) while at the same deploring the desire to do so in lieu of engaging with the arguments.
I would not ban someone from saying something offensive about another person or group. I would however question whether it is a sensible way of engaging in debate. And it would make me think less of the person who uses insulting epithets because, usually, people who are insulting - without more - only show up the poverty of their arguments.
"gammon" is a charmless and contemptuous label used by those who don't want to engage with their arguments. Whether or not it is racist, it is unpleasant.
It is, however, highly amusing to see many who usually staunchly defend freedom of expression whenever similar derogatory terms are used for other out groups getting worked up about this one.
There is a difference, as you well know, between being in favour of people being free to call others whatever they want, including nasty, unpleasant things (provided they don't incite violence) while at the same deploring the desire to do so in lieu of engaging with the arguments.
I would not ban someone from saying something offensive about another person or group. I would however question whether it is a sensible way of engaging in debate. And it would make me think less of the person who uses insulting epithets because, usually, people who are insulting - without more - only show up the poverty of their arguments.
Comments
Unspoofable.
Is it just a historical presence? It’s very different demographically and psychogeographically from their other redoubts.
[Just a ticking clock]
Now imagine those people were from ethnic minorities, or were women......
https://mobile.twitter.com/benatipsosmori/status/995985698057572352
To attribute a value and moral worth of an individual due to a set of genetic characteristics that they have no part in and are only evident due to their skin colour, if applied to any other group would be roundly condemned.
How long will it take for the left to work out that identity politics only works when those not in a minority dont know the rules. Brexit in the UK and Trump in the USA have shown very much what happens when the majority work it out.
Tom Brake, the Liberal Democrats’ Brexit spokesperson and a supporter of the Best for Britain campaign, said: “Someone at the Foreign Office must have a sense of humour in organising a conference to promote membership of the EU for the Western Balkan countries. Just as we seem set on leaving the EU, we start advising others to join. Government policy would not look out of place in the theatre of the absurd.”
As I say upthread, you can’t just be white to be gammon. You have to be
White
Angry
Working class / lower middle class
Dyspeptic / near coronary in colour
Pro Brexit or similar (hanging etc)
It’s the new white van man.
Quite.
Simon Reeves piece from years ago, who does those travel programmes and not exactly a ring winger, said it was the worst country he had ever visited (and that included war torn ones). Massive poverty, massive corruption, massive mismanagement, massive crime, and total useless government.
I don't really think anyone should care about 'gammon', it's just a meme a few people are using and it's not exactly known beyond a small percentage of the internet let alone the country.
I somewhat doubt anyone will use it in a few months time and I doubt the working class it insults spend enough time in the student politics sphere of twitter to be aware of the phrase as meaning anything other than a reasonably tasty piece of meat.
Best of five?
Neverendum?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nXZKgk01G-A
'Unspoofable' – PB Tory stock phrase. Avoid.
Now if they used names such as Quebec, Plassey, Wandiwash, Minden, Warburg, Lagos and Quiberon Bay ...
Go for it. This is about attributing a set of characteristics that they have no control over to a set of views. Just try doing that to any other race. Go on. Do it.
But carry on its fine. The contempt is dripping. You would be surprised just how well voters can sniff out contempt.
https://www.verdict.co.uk/premier-league-brexit/
In his house at R'lyeh dead Cthulhu waits dreaming.
Still pigs give us bacon and pork belly, asking for gammon to be as delicious would be too much.
I paraphrase 'Trump is a moronic malevolent cu*t who is a danger to us all'
It was the UK being almost alone amongst EU/EEA nations in not imposing transition controls on free movement from 2004 to 2011 which saw so many Easten European migrants come here over that timeframe
https://twitter.com/nitrmind/status/995973206556139520
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-44104260
What happened to the promised financial asset freezes?
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2018/05/14/john-bercow-will-quit-speaker-june-22-says-mp-ally-dragged-speakers/
https://twitter.com/brexit/status/996010778112217088?s=21
It's the equivalent to, probably overfed, "pillock".Very mild.
Gaza clashes: Dozens killed ahead of US embassy opening in Jerusalem
Surely a story almost as important as the gammon debate?
It is, however, highly amusing to see many who usually staunchly defend freedom of expression whenever similar derogatory terms are used for other out groups getting worked up about this one.
I take the view that you never interrupt an opponent when he's making a mistake. The far left are just reminding everyone of their true nature.
Mr. Meeks, the general consensus appears to have recently been that racial epithets are bad. Hence the outrage over Adonis retweeting a certain cartoon about Javid (which he then took down), and the 'coconut' comments aimed at Javid by others.
It seems legitimate to consider it unreasonable not to level equal condemnation when the likes of Lammy refer to 'white mansplaining', or others bang on about 'gammon'. It's incredible hypocrisy that some believe it's ok to make derogatory comments based on skin colour provided it's white people who are being insulted.
Especially stabbings. Remainers are obviously far more likely to be stabbers.
We've seen it against Javid specifically, and white people generally. And it isn't a good thing.
NEW THREAD
That Jack Straw?
Swivel eyed loon would however not, but it'd be bad form to make that observation about a sufferer of Graves disease if say they were an opponent of Anthropogenic Global Warming.
It's closer to 'Uncle Tom' and 'coconut' than 'frother' and 'snowflake' in terms of racial overtones.
I would not ban someone from saying something offensive about another person or group. I would however question whether it is a sensible way of engaging in debate. And it would make me think less of the person who uses insulting epithets because, usually, people who are insulting - without more - only show up the poverty of their arguments.