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politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » It’s hard to see how insulting a key segment of the elecorate

SystemSystem Posts: 5,841
edited May 14 in General

imagepoliticalbetting.com » Blog Archive » It’s hard to see how insulting a key segment of the elecorate is going to help the LAB cause – but hey, they don’t seem to care

The ‘gammon’ insult is fuelled by class hatred. It expresses the visceral contempt felt by bourgeois Corbynistas for people further down the social ladder. We now know how thoroughly Labour has been captured by a new elite.

Read the full story here


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Comments

  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 40,384
    If Labour turn off all the 'Gammons' and white middle class men they are not going to win over the marginal seats in the Midlands they need under FPTP for a majority.

    Winning huge majorities in the inner cities is not enough to get Corbyn to No 10
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 26,146
    Some vegetarian gammon-substitute for me, please :lol:
  • Ishmael_ZIshmael_Z Posts: 5,422
    Gammons = Deplorables. Why do people not fucking learn?
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 21,103
    Ishmael_Z said:

    Gammons = Deplorables. Why do people not fucking learn?

    It's an odd feature of modern politics that many people think that insulting their opponents helps their cause.
  • TomsToms Posts: 1,512
    Who cares?
    It's probably too subtle for me anyway.
    Or boring.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 2,184
    Anyone for a Gammon and Pineapple Pizza?

    The Silly Season is officially launched by this storm in a teacup.
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 26,146
    nunuone said:

    twitter.com/RVAwonk/status/996078231466971136

    If only the Arabs had opted for the two-state solution per UN General Assembly resolution 181 back in 1947....
  • TheWhiteRabbitTheWhiteRabbit Posts: 7,421
    Sean_F said:

    Ishmael_Z said:

    Gammons = Deplorables. Why do people not fucking learn?

    It's an odd feature of modern politics that many people think that insulting their opponents helps their cause.
    I'm not sure it is, you know, racist or whatever. But it is stupid.
  • YorkcityYorkcity Posts: 3,168
    Sean_F said:

    Ishmael_Z said:

    Gammons = Deplorables. Why do people not fucking learn?

    It's an odd feature of modern politics that many people think that insulting their opponents helps their cause.
    Yes very true , is that why , Janan Ganesh deleted his tweet saying Corbynistas were " thick as pigshit " Ft columnist.


    https://www.newstatesman.com/politics/uk/2018/05/new-left-wing-insult-gammon-racist-towards-white-men
  • philiphphiliph Posts: 2,808
    Ishmael_Z said:

    Gammons = Deplorables. Why do people not fucking learn?

    Because they are thick and badly educated?

    Note, you need to be both.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 40,384
    nunuone said:
    'Palestinians hurled stones and incendiary devices'.

    www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-44116340

    'Incendiary weapons, incendiary devices or incendiary bombs are weapons designed to start fires or destroy sensitive equipment using fire, that use materials such as napalm, thermite, magnesium powder, chlorine trifluoride, or white phosphorus.'
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Incendiary_device
    Israeli troops may have been over zealous in their response but the rioters were pretty violent too
  • philiphphiliph Posts: 2,808
    edited May 14
    Yorkcity said:

    Sean_F said:

    Ishmael_Z said:

    Gammons = Deplorables. Why do people not fucking learn?

    It's an odd feature of modern politics that many people think that insulting their opponents helps their cause.
    Yes very true , is that why , Janan Ganesh deleted his tweet saying Corbynistas were " thick as pigshit " Ft columnist.


    https://www.newstatesman.com/politics/uk/2018/05/new-left-wing-insult-gammon-racist-towards-white-men
    Wouldn't want to be tarred with the epitaph of an honest journalist? :)
  • AnazinaAnazina Posts: 983
    The problem with most gammon is that it's too salty. Give it a 24-hour soak then smash it with black treacle. A Christmas centrepiece far superior to turkey.
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 13,469
    Not all sweetness and light in the Royal household then.

    Megan's Father may not attend the wedding apparently
  • AnazinaAnazina Posts: 983
    edited May 14
    How is this latest uninventive internet gibe any different to the unoriginal dirge we see on here on a daily basis? Remainiac, snowflake, waycist, it's a view, unspoofable, x stage of grief etc etc etc. These memes are all teeth-grindingly awful.
  • Scott_PScott_P Posts: 35,762

    Not all sweetness and light in the Royal household then.

    Megan's Father may not attend the wedding apparently

    Suffered a heart attack, apparently
  • RobDRobD Posts: 32,182
    Foxy said:

    Anyone for a Gammon and Pineapple Pizza?

    The Silly Season is officially launched by this storm in a teacup.

    Yes please. Make sure the gammon on mine is especially xenophobic. :smiley:
  • TheWhiteRabbitTheWhiteRabbit Posts: 7,421
    Anazina said:

    The problem with most gammon is that it's too salty. Give it a 24-hour soak then smash it with black treacle. A Christmas centrepiece far superior to turkey.

    I prefer it to soak it in knock-off coke (the cola obviously not the drug)
  • AnazinaAnazina Posts: 983

    Anazina said:

    The problem with most gammon is that it's too salty. Give it a 24-hour soak then smash it with black treacle. A Christmas centrepiece far superior to turkey.

    I prefer it to soak it in knock-off coke (the cola obviously not the drug)

    Anazina said:

    The problem with most gammon is that it's too salty. Give it a 24-hour soak then smash it with black treacle. A Christmas centrepiece far superior to turkey.

    I prefer it to soak it in knock-off coke (the cola obviously not the drug)
    I keep meaning to try that recipe – also Nigella's I believe.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 2,184
    RobD said:

    Foxy said:

    Anyone for a Gammon and Pineapple Pizza?

    The Silly Season is officially launched by this storm in a teacup.

    Yes please. Make sure the gammon on mine is especially xenophobic. :smiley:
    I am afraid that we risk culturally appropriating from Polynesia and Italy, but who cares!
  • RobDRobD Posts: 32,182
    Foxy said:

    RobD said:

    Foxy said:

    Anyone for a Gammon and Pineapple Pizza?

    The Silly Season is officially launched by this storm in a teacup.

    Yes please. Make sure the gammon on mine is especially xenophobic. :smiley:
    I am afraid that we risk culturally appropriating from Polynesia and Italy, but who cares!
    I thought pineapple pizza was Canadian? :p
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 13,469
    edited May 14
    My dear wife and I leave on Thursday to fly to Rome for a 14 day cruise to the Western Med and Greece and then when we come home we are travelling to visit our family in North East Scotland.

    I will keep an eye on PB but there is time for Brexit to be fixed and the Nation to come together over the next four weeks isn't there and I will look forward to the new topics to discuss on my return.

    Be nice to one another and while I have no idea what this talk about 'gammon' is I would expect I may have some on our cruise
  • BigRichBigRich Posts: 867
    Ishmael_Z said:

    Gammons = Deplorables. Why do people not fucking learn?

    Socialism, and by that I mean all forms of socialism (scientific socialism, progressive socialism, international socialism,national socialism, revolutionary socialism, 21st Century socialism, Corbynista Socialism) is a way of thinking that puts people in to category’s (bourgeoisie, proletariat, capitalist, working class, Zionist, Jews, the many, and the few) and ascribing those groups characteristics, (oppressors, oppressed, victims, victimizes) and then setting yourself (or your party) up to ‘right’ the perceived wrongs.

    Whether its ‘Deplorables’ or ‘Gammon’ Socialists will always try to put a label on people, and not see them as unique individuals, with their own individual characteristics: tastes, preferences, wants and desires, as well as their own Skiles, talents, and experiences.
  • RobDRobD Posts: 32,182
    Have a nice holiday Big_G. Hopefully you don't miss TSE's magnum opus AV thread... :D
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 13,469
    Scott_P said:

    Not all sweetness and light in the Royal household then.

    Megan's Father may not attend the wedding apparently

    Suffered a heart attack, apparently
    Really - Sorry to hear that
  • FregglesFreggles Posts: 2,663
    Ishmael_Z said:

    Gammons = Deplorables. Why do people not fucking learn?

    Yeah, you never called anyone a snowflake or libtard in your day
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 30,345
    Has this 'gammon' thing been going on for a while? I confess its one that has passed me by, at least as a general thing. I think Cameron was called it on occasion? It's a bit of a blur.

    I'm more a fan of political insults which I feel can work on a non partisan basis, if we must have them at all. Eg, snowflake - predominantly used against the left, but thing thing it is complaining about seems like it would work equally well against someone on the right. If they only go one way then it just feels a little sadder, since people will take it so much more seriously.
    Anazina said:

    The problem with most gammon is that it's too salty. Give it a 24-hour soak then smash it with black treacle. A Christmas centrepiece far superior to turkey.

    That is not difficult to achieve, in fairness. Much overhyped, Turkey.
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 13,469
    RobD said:

    Have a nice holiday Big_G. Hopefully you don't miss TSE's magnum opus AV thread... :D

    Thanks - this is our 11th cruise and it is great to be all at sea just like Brexit
  • The_ApocalypseThe_Apocalypse Posts: 6,955
    edited May 14
    LOL....

    Doubt anyone/many outside of political twitter really cares about this Gammon thing. Certainly many of those offended today somehow managed to be oblivious to it being in use for nearly a whole year now. This is despite being the same people who issue a running commentary on the various issues they have with Corbynistas and Remainers since 2015/16.
  • AnazinaAnazina Posts: 983
    kle4 said:

    Has this 'gammon' thing been going on for a while? I confess its one that has passed me by, at least as a general thing. I think Cameron was called it on occasion? It's a bit of a blur.

    I'm more a fan of political insults which I feel can work on a non partisan basis, if we must have them at all. Eg, snowflake - predominantly used against the left, but thing thing it is complaining about seems like it would work equally well against someone on the right. If they only go one way then it just feels a little sadder, since people will take it so much more seriously.

    Anazina said:

    The problem with most gammon is that it's too salty. Give it a 24-hour soak then smash it with black treacle. A Christmas centrepiece far superior to turkey.

    That is not difficult to achieve, in fairness. Much overhyped, Turkey.
    Is it even hyped? Most people dislike it I think, otherwise they would eat it more frequently.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 30,345
    If that is how strong people want to be, I honestly think it better if they do go back to that. Insults, particularly slightly goofy ones like a comparison to a piece of food, might give the impression of dislike and opposition, but not raw, visceral hatred. If people hate the other side so much they want to go around calling them c*nts all the time, best they be upfront about it.

    It reminds me of just after Trump was elected (dark times indeed) some of my favourite youtube channels were doing a thing where they'd oh so subtly reference the event without directly stating it, along with a comment about how perhaps something really bad has happened and their viewers would like to escape all that via whatever the video was about. I felt like if they were so shocked and shaken at Trump's win (a not uncommon reaction!) and clearly felt their fans would be too, why be all cutesy about it, it just made it seem weird to me.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 18,407
    Ishmael_Z said:

    Gammons = Deplorables. Why do people not fucking learn?

    Does that mean the collective noun is a basket?
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 30,345
    Anazina said:

    kle4 said:

    Has this 'gammon' thing been going on for a while? I confess its one that has passed me by, at least as a general thing. I think Cameron was called it on occasion? It's a bit of a blur.

    I'm more a fan of political insults which I feel can work on a non partisan basis, if we must have them at all. Eg, snowflake - predominantly used against the left, but thing thing it is complaining about seems like it would work equally well against someone on the right. If they only go one way then it just feels a little sadder, since people will take it so much more seriously.

    Anazina said:

    The problem with most gammon is that it's too salty. Give it a 24-hour soak then smash it with black treacle. A Christmas centrepiece far superior to turkey.

    That is not difficult to achieve, in fairness. Much overhyped, Turkey.
    Is it even hyped? Most people dislike it I think, otherwise they would eat it more frequently.
    Over hyped as a good Christmas centrepiece perhaps.
  • The_ApocalypseThe_Apocalypse Posts: 6,955
    Turkey is truly awful, IMO. My family regularly have Gammon for Christmas (Gammon sandwiches). It’s much better than Turkey will be ever be.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 30,345
    edited May 14

    Doubt anyone/many outside of political twitter really cares about this Gammon thing. Certainly many of those offended today somehow managed to be oblivious to it being in use for nearly a whole year now. .
    No kidding. I follow a lot of politics and I'd never noticed it, and I cannot even manufacture outrage about it beyond a shrugged 'Well clearly we should all be less shitty to each other generally anyway'.

    For all that I think the standard rule applies here, about how would people react if it were their opponents making the same sort of defence of issue x - I have zero doubt someone like Owen Jones would be apoplectic about it, but that's because he's such a partisan . And I think we know many who are outraged would not be so outraged if the tables were turned. It's not so outrageous as to cross partisan lines much.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 2,184
    Could I point out that Gammon contains toxic quantities of Nitrites and Nitrates. However Parma Ham is free of these, and so is "naked bacon" available at Sainsbury or Waitrose.

    https://www.theguardian.com/news/2018/mar/01/bacon-cancer-processed-meats-nitrates-nitrites-sausages
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 13,469
    Sky News on the Israel Gaza border

    A 'Hamas Activist' is the first to be buried

  • kle4kle4 Posts: 30,345

    Turkey is truly awful, IMO. My family regularly have Gammon for Christmas (Gammon sandwiches). It’s much better than Turkey will be ever be.

    Not a fan of Gammon myself - depending on the size of the gathering my lot would go for Chicken, Lamb and Pork, so pretty much everyone could be happy.
    I feel like there is an option missing there - how many thought it would go badly (or at least complicatedly) and it is turning out even more so than they thought.
  • Stark_DawningStark_Dawning Posts: 3,316
    I took it as a term of endearment - rustic old hearties tucking into their crackling. Anyway, the French have been using 'le rosbif' for centuries. A true Englishman should rather enjoy being likened to a joint of meat.
  • The_ApocalypseThe_Apocalypse Posts: 6,955
    kle4 said:

    Doubt anyone/many outside of political twitter really cares about this Gammon thing. Certainly many of those offended today somehow managed to be oblivious to it being in use for nearly a whole year now. .
    No kidding. I follow a lot of politics and I'd never noticed it, and I cannot even manufacture outrage about it beyond a shrugged 'Well clearly we should all be less shitty to each other generally anyway'.

    For all that I think the standard rule applies here, about how would people react if it were their opponents making the same sort of defence of issue x - I have zero doubt someone like Owen Jones would be apoplectic about it, but that's because he's such a partisan . And I think we know many who are outraged would not be so outraged if the tables were turned. It's not so outrageous as to cross partisan lines much.
    Agreed.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 43,625
    Gammongate.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 30,345

    kle4 said:

    Doubt anyone/many outside of political twitter really cares about this Gammon thing. Certainly many of those offended today somehow managed to be oblivious to it being in use for nearly a whole year now. .
    No kidding. I follow a lot of politics and I'd never noticed it, and I cannot even manufacture outrage about it beyond a shrugged 'Well clearly we should all be less shitty to each other generally anyway'.

    For all that I think the standard rule applies here, about how would people react if it were their opponents making the same sort of defence of issue x - I have zero doubt someone like Owen Jones would be apoplectic about it, but that's because he's such a partisan . And I think we know many who are outraged would not be so outraged if the tables were turned. It's not so outrageous as to cross partisan lines much.
    Agreed.
    That said, with all that hot weather last weekend and an unwise decision to expose parts of my torso to the cruel rays of the sun, I have certainly been looking very gammon like for the past week.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 64,902
    As a good Muslim boy I could never be gammon, right?
  • murali_smurali_s Posts: 1,991
    When will this lame Tory Government come out and condemn the rogue pariah nation of Israel? When FFS?
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 30,345
    murali_s said:

    When will this lame Tory Government come out and condemn the rogue pariah nation of Israel? When FFS?

    How does one define 'pariah' nation?
  • RogerRoger Posts: 9,039
    edited May 14
    Poor Ivanka Trump. As every news channel pumps out images of her parading herself like a pampered mannequin and juxtapose the image against a backdrop of 55 slaughtered Palestinians the world becomes increasingly repulsed.
  • The_ApocalypseThe_Apocalypse Posts: 6,955
    kle4 said:

    kle4 said:

    Doubt anyone/many outside of political twitter really cares about this Gammon thing. Certainly many of those offended today somehow managed to be oblivious to it being in use for nearly a whole year now. .
    No kidding. I follow a lot of politics and I'd never noticed it, and I cannot even manufacture outrage about it beyond a shrugged 'Well clearly we should all be less shitty to each other generally anyway'.

    For all that I think the standard rule applies here, about how would people react if it were their opponents making the same sort of defence of issue x - I have zero doubt someone like Owen Jones would be apoplectic about it, but that's because he's such a partisan . And I think we know many who are outraged would not be so outraged if the tables were turned. It's not so outrageous as to cross partisan lines much.
    Agreed.
    That said, with all that hot weather last weekend and an unwise decision to expose parts of my torso to the cruel rays of the sun, I have certainly been looking very gammon like for the past week.
    :lol:

    My family also prefer chicken, lamb and pork as well. We used to also like mutton as well, but we’ve gone off it in recent years.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 43,625
    It's a subtle point, but I don't think that is anti-semitic. If he'd said that no Jewish people should compete then that would be.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 30,345
    Won't that just fall into the trap that while plenty of anti-semites disguise their anti-semitism as being anti the israeli state's actions, not everyone who opposes israel is an anti semite, and as silly as trying to boycott anything israeli is, it's not really a smoking gun as to his own views?

    I'm certainly not one to defend him, but he's not been harmed by far worse allegations.
  • spire2spire2 Posts: 103
    the sun appears to think corbyn being seen as anti Israeli is a vote loser for Labour. Perhaps its a vote winner?
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 64,902
    Pulpstar said:

    It's a subtle point, but I don't think that is anti-semitic. If he'd said that no Jewish people should compete then that would be.
    But did he also campaign for Australia to be banned from Eurovision?

    What's the difference between Australia and Israel? Is it Australia are descended from convicts and he believes in rehabilitation?
  • TheWhiteRabbitTheWhiteRabbit Posts: 7,421
    spire2 said:

    the sun appears to think corbyn being seen as anti Israeli is a vote loser for Labour. Perhaps its a vote winner?
    10% of people are pro-Israel, 10% of people are anti-Israel, the rest are just against being f***** stupid.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 43,625

    Pulpstar said:

    It's a subtle point, but I don't think that is anti-semitic. If he'd said that no Jewish people should compete then that would be.
    But did he also campaign for Australia to be banned from Eurovision?

    What's the difference between Australia and Israel? Is it Australia are descended from convicts and he believes in rehabilitation?
    Did Australia slaughter 55 aborigines... today ?
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 26,146
    murali_s said:

    When will this lame Tory Government come out and condemn the rogue pariah nation of Israel? When FFS?

    If only the Arabs had opted for the two-state solution per UN General Assembly resolution 181 back in 1947....
  • Wulfrun_PhilWulfrun_Phil Posts: 1,029
    Is it still possible to object to any actions of the state of Israel without being labelled as "antisemitic"?
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 40,384
    spire2 said:

    the sun appears to think corbyn being seen as anti Israeli is a vote loser for Labour. Perhaps its a vote winner?
    Not in Barnet that is for sure
  • AnazinaAnazina Posts: 983
    Another panglossian poll. The sensible answer is: 'it began as a complete clusterfuck and has progressively worsened since then'.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 30,345
    edited May 14
    Anazina said:

    Another panglossian poll. The sensible answer is: 'it began as a complete clusterfuck and has progressively worsened since then'.
    That's not a sensible answer, the point is clearly to assess people's initial expectations vs their current assessment, which your answer does not since it doesn't indicate what your initial expectation was (though it can be inferred). I don't think it covers all the options, but its purpose seems reasonable.
  • AnazinaAnazina Posts: 983
    edited May 14

    Pulpstar said:

    It's a subtle point, but I don't think that is anti-semitic. If he'd said that no Jewish people should compete then that would be.
    But did he also campaign for Australia to be banned from Eurovision?

    What's the difference between Australia and Israel? Is it Australia are descended from convicts and he believes in rehabilitation?
    A simpler, fairer and more effective measure would be to ban Eurovision. Corbo is guilty of muddled thinking, as ever.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 40,384
    Roger said:

    Poor Ivanka Trump. As every news channel pumps out images of her parading herself like a pampered mannequin and juxtapose the image against a backdrop of 55 slaughtered Palestinians the world becomes increasingly repulsed.

    Not in the USA I imagine and certainly not outside San Francisco and the Harvard Yard.

    According to Gallup last year 71% of Americans have a favourable view of Israel, rising to 81% amongst Republicans. Netanyahu has a +19% positive rating
    http://news.gallup.com/poll/203954/israel-maintains-positive-image.aspx?g_source=link_NEWSV9&g_medium=TOPIC&g_campaign=item_&g_content=Israel%20Maintains%20Positive%20Image%20in%20U.S.

    62% of Americans sympathise more with the Israelis than the Palestinians with just 19% sympathising more with the Palestinians. Support for a Palestinian state is almost tied 45% to 42%

    http://news.gallup.com/poll/203900/americans-tepid-palestinian-statehood.aspx
  • spire2spire2 Posts: 103
    HYUFD said:

    spire2 said:

    the sun appears to think corbyn being seen as anti Israeli is a vote loser for Labour. Perhaps its a vote winner?
    Not in Barnet that is for sure
    perhaps in Birmingham Bradford and Blackburn though
  • AnazinaAnazina Posts: 983
    kle4 said:

    Anazina said:

    Another panglossian poll. The sensible answer is: 'it began as a complete clusterfuck and has progressively worsened since then'.
    That's not a sensible answer, the point is clearly to assess people's initial expectations vs their current assessment, which your answer does not since it doesn't indicate what your initial expectation was (though it can be inferred). I don't think it covers all the options, but its purpose seems reasonable.
    I'll rephrase:

    My initial expectations were that it would be a complete clusterfuck and my current assessment is several rungs worse.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 30,345
    Anazina said:

    kle4 said:

    Anazina said:

    Another panglossian poll. The sensible answer is: 'it began as a complete clusterfuck and has progressively worsened since then'.
    That's not a sensible answer, the point is clearly to assess people's initial expectations vs their current assessment, which your answer does not since it doesn't indicate what your initial expectation was (though it can be inferred). I don't think it covers all the options, but its purpose seems reasonable.
    I'll rephrase:

    My initial expectations were that it would be a complete clusterfuck and my current assessment is several rungs worse.
    There you go!
  • AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 21,839
    spire2 said:

    HYUFD said:

    spire2 said:

    the sun appears to think corbyn being seen as anti Israeli is a vote loser for Labour. Perhaps its a vote winner?
    Not in Barnet that is for sure
    perhaps in Birmingham Bradford and Blackburn though
    Labour already holds all the seats in those places.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 21,962
    Tim Stanley made mildly amusing joke. That's a first.

    Here's my contribution to humour: They should make a dating app for people with STDs. It would be called Tender.
  • AnazinaAnazina Posts: 983
    kle4 said:

    Anazina said:

    kle4 said:

    Anazina said:

    Another panglossian poll. The sensible answer is: 'it began as a complete clusterfuck and has progressively worsened since then'.
    That's not a sensible answer, the point is clearly to assess people's initial expectations vs their current assessment, which your answer does not since it doesn't indicate what your initial expectation was (though it can be inferred). I don't think it covers all the options, but its purpose seems reasonable.
    I'll rephrase:

    My initial expectations were that it would be a complete clusterfuck and my current assessment is several rungs worse.
    There you go!
    :)
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 18,407
    Anazina said:

    kle4 said:

    Anazina said:

    Another panglossian poll. The sensible answer is: 'it began as a complete clusterfuck and has progressively worsened since then'.
    That's not a sensible answer, the point is clearly to assess people's initial expectations vs their current assessment, which your answer does not since it doesn't indicate what your initial expectation was (though it can be inferred). I don't think it covers all the options, but its purpose seems reasonable.
    I'll rephrase:

    My initial expectations were that it would be a complete clusterfuck and my current assessment is several rungs worse.
    You'd need to include the other extreme to avoid accusations of push-polling.

    "I expected Brexit to be full of sunlit uplands and I think they are in sight."
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 26,146
    HYUFD said:

    Roger said:

    Poor Ivanka Trump. As every news channel pumps out images of her parading herself like a pampered mannequin and juxtapose the image against a backdrop of 55 slaughtered Palestinians the world becomes increasingly repulsed.

    Not in the USA I imagine and certainly not outside San Francisco and the Harvard Yard.

    According to Gallup last year 71% of Americans have a favourable view of Israel, rising to 81% amongst Republicans. Netanyahu has a +19% positive rating
    http://news.gallup.com/poll/203954/israel-maintains-positive-image.aspx?g_source=link_NEWSV9&g_medium=TOPIC&g_campaign=item_&g_content=Israel%20Maintains%20Positive%20Image%20in%20U.S.

    62% of Americans sympathise more with the Israelis than the Palestinians with just 19% sympathising more with the Palestinians. Support for a Palestinian state is almost tied 45% to 42%

    http://news.gallup.com/poll/203900/americans-tepid-palestinian-statehood.aspx
    In the most recent poll, reported by Gallup in March 2018, 64% sympathized with Israel, equalling the all-time high, and the ninth straight year support exceeded 60%. This exceeds the level of support (56%) Israel enjoyed after the 1967 war, when many people mistakenly believe that Israel was overwhelmingly popular. Meanwhile, only 19% expressed support for the Palestinians only slightly higher than the 15% in Gallup’s initial 1988 measurement.

    In recent years Gallup has noted that many Americans have moved from “no preference” into the pro-Israeli column. Even when support for Israel dips, as occurred during Operation Protective Edge (July 8-August 26, 2014), when the NBC/WSJ and Pew polls found a decline in support to 46% and 51%, respectively, support for the Palestinians does not increase (it was 14% in both polls). Moreover, support for Israel inevitably bounces back.

    http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/american-public-opinion-toward-israel-an-overview
  • DeClareDeClare Posts: 180
    spire2 said:

    the sun appears to think corbyn being seen as anti Israeli is a vote loser for Labour. Perhaps its a vote winner?
    I shouldn't think so, the average Briton couldn't care less about a bunch of Arabs and I don't suppose they spend much time worrying about us either.
    Those who do take their side in the Middle East conflict probably vote Labour already anyway and Labour could lose even more Jewish votes if they condemned their side.
    It's best to keep well out of it, it's not much to do with Britain anymore.
  • AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 19,480
    Shout out to the 17% of Leave voters who expected Brexit to go badly but voted for it anyway.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 43,625
    Hmm I always thought Brexit would be a tricky process.

    The big failure of the Gov't thus far is in its preparation for the negotiations though.

    The Gov't should have had a clear aim for its relationship with Europe, with the Nicky Morgans on one side and the Rees Moggs on the other being able to maintain a bit of discipline whilst the negotiations were on.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 40,384

    HYUFD said:

    Roger said:

    Poor Ivanka Trump. As every news channel pumps out images of her parading herself like a pampered mannequin and juxtapose the image against a backdrop of 55 slaughtered Palestinians the world becomes increasingly repulsed.

    Not in the USA I imagine and certainly not outside San Francisco and the Harvard Yard.

    According to Gallup last year 71% of Americans have a favourable view of Israel, rising to 81% amongst Republicans. Netanyahu has a +19% positive rating
    http://news.gallup.com/poll/203954/israel-maintains-positive-image.aspx?g_source=link_NEWSV9&g_medium=TOPIC&g_campaign=item_&g_content=Israel%20Maintains%20Positive%20Image%20in%20U.S.

    62% of Americans sympathise more with the Israelis than the Palestinians with just 19% sympathising more with the Palestinians. Support for a Palestinian state is almost tied 45% to 42%

    http://news.gallup.com/poll/203900/americans-tepid-palestinian-statehood.aspx
    In the most recent poll, reported by Gallup in March 2018, 64% sympathized with Israel, equalling the all-time high, and the ninth straight year support exceeded 60%. This exceeds the level of support (56%) Israel enjoyed after the 1967 war, when many people mistakenly believe that Israel was overwhelmingly popular. Meanwhile, only 19% expressed support for the Palestinians only slightly higher than the 15% in Gallup’s initial 1988 measurement.

    In recent years Gallup has noted that many Americans have moved from “no preference” into the pro-Israeli column. Even when support for Israel dips, as occurred during Operation Protective Edge (July 8-August 26, 2014), when the NBC/WSJ and Pew polls found a decline in support to 46% and 51%, respectively, support for the Palestinians does not increase (it was 14% in both polls). Moreover, support for Israel inevitably bounces back.

    http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/american-public-opinion-toward-israel-an-overview
    Yes and even 49% of Democrats sympathise more with Israel in that poll, with 59% of independents behind Israel and amongst Trump voting Republicans 87% favour Israel.

    'In 2015, Israel's favorability ranking trailed only Canada, Great Britain, Germany, Japan, France and India. The Palestinian Authority in 2015 was rated just above Pakistan (15%), Iraq (15%), Afghanistan (14%), Syria (14%), Iran (11%) and North Korea (9%) as the least popular countries.'
  • nunuonenunuone Posts: 535
    edited May 14
    ooops wrong tweet
  • AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 19,480
    @Cyclefree I will try to answer your question from this morning when I have a spare minute.
  • JonathanDJonathanD Posts: 2,088
    Pulpstar said:

    Hmm I always thought Brexit would be a tricky process.

    The big failure of the Gov't thus far is in its preparation for the negotiations though.

    The Gov't should have had a clear aim for its relationship with Europe,

    The government does have a clear aim for its relationship with the EU; its 'have cake and eat it'.

  • AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 19,480
    On topic, it’s a most unpleasant label. It’s not the only one floating around. The reactionary right have plenty for their favourite hated groups too.
  • nunuonenunuone Posts: 535
    HYUFD said:

    Roger said:

    Poor Ivanka Trump. As every news channel pumps out images of her parading herself like a pampered mannequin and juxtapose the image against a backdrop of 55 slaughtered Palestinians the world becomes increasingly repulsed.

    Not in the USA I imagine and certainly not outside San Francisco and the Harvard Yard.

    According to Gallup last year 71% of Americans have a favourable view of Israel, rising to 81% amongst Republicans. Netanyahu has a +19% positive rating
    http://news.gallup.com/poll/203954/israel-maintains-positive-image.aspx?g_source=link_NEWSV9&g_medium=TOPIC&g_campaign=item_&g_content=Israel%20Maintains%20Positive%20Image%20in%20U.S.

    62% of Americans sympathise more with the Israelis than the Palestinians with just 19% sympathising more with the Palestinians. Support for a Palestinian state is almost tied 45% to 42%

    http://news.gallup.com/poll/203900/americans-tepid-palestinian-statehood.aspx
    American news coverage is very one sided in the extreme even the most left leaning stations have flattering coverage of Israel.
  • ElliotElliot Posts: 1,174
    Anazina said:

    Pulpstar said:

    It's a subtle point, but I don't think that is anti-semitic. If he'd said that no Jewish people should compete then that would be.
    But did he also campaign for Australia to be banned from Eurovision?

    What's the difference between Australia and Israel? Is it Australia are descended from convicts and he believes in rehabilitation?
    A simpler, fairer and more effective measure would be to ban Eurovision. Corbo is guilty of muddled thinking, as ever.
    A total ban on Eurovision might make me vote for him.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 40,384
    DeClare said:

    spire2 said:

    the sun appears to think corbyn being seen as anti Israeli is a vote loser for Labour. Perhaps its a vote winner?
    I shouldn't think so, the average Briton couldn't care less about a bunch of Arabs and I don't suppose they spend much time worrying about us either.
    Those who do take their side in the Middle East conflict probably vote Labour already anyway and Labour could lose even more Jewish votes if they condemned their side.
    It's best to keep well out of it, it's not much to do with Britain anymore.
    At the last general election 85% of Muslims voted Labour and 63% of Jews voted Conservative so if you take a strong pro Palestinian view you are indeed already almost certainly a Labour voter and if you take a strong pro Israel view you are very likely to already be a Tory voter
    http://www.brin.ac.uk/2017/religious-affiliation-and-party-choice-at-the-2017-general-election/
  • The_ApocalypseThe_Apocalypse Posts: 6,955
    Americans being pro-Israel isn’t very surprising, interesting that we apparently aren’t though. Another example of how US Democrats and Labour supporters here view the world pretty differently.
  • ElliotElliot Posts: 1,174
    murali_s said:

    When will this lame Tory Government come out and condemn the rogue pariah nation of Israel? When FFS?

    When will Corbyn condemn Russia, who has actually killed British people on British soil? What is possibly unique about Israel that makes the far left so more ready to condemn them relative to other regimes?
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 40,384
    nunuone said:

    HYUFD said:

    Roger said:

    Poor Ivanka Trump. As every news channel pumps out images of her parading herself like a pampered mannequin and juxtapose the image against a backdrop of 55 slaughtered Palestinians the world becomes increasingly repulsed.

    Not in the USA I imagine and certainly not outside San Francisco and the Harvard Yard.

    According to Gallup last year 71% of Americans have a favourable view of Israel, rising to 81% amongst Republicans. Netanyahu has a +19% positive rating
    http://news.gallup.com/poll/203954/israel-maintains-positive-image.aspx?g_source=link_NEWSV9&g_medium=TOPIC&g_campaign=item_&g_content=Israel%20Maintains%20Positive%20Image%20in%20U.S.

    62% of Americans sympathise more with the Israelis than the Palestinians with just 19% sympathising more with the Palestinians. Support for a Palestinian state is almost tied 45% to 42%

    http://news.gallup.com/poll/203900/americans-tepid-palestinian-statehood.aspx
    American news coverage is very one sided in the extreme even the most left leaning stations have flattering coverage of Israel.
    Parts of Florida and New York city are like mini Israels anyway
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 26,146
    edited May 14
    nunuone said:

    HYUFD said:

    Roger said:

    Poor Ivanka Trump. As every news channel pumps out images of her parading herself like a pampered mannequin and juxtapose the image against a backdrop of 55 slaughtered Palestinians the world becomes increasingly repulsed.

    Not in the USA I imagine and certainly not outside San Francisco and the Harvard Yard.

    According to Gallup last year 71% of Americans have a favourable view of Israel, rising to 81% amongst Republicans. Netanyahu has a +19% positive rating
    http://news.gallup.com/poll/203954/israel-maintains-positive-image.aspx?g_source=link_NEWSV9&g_medium=TOPIC&g_campaign=item_&g_content=Israel%20Maintains%20Positive%20Image%20in%20U.S.

    62% of Americans sympathise more with the Israelis than the Palestinians with just 19% sympathising more with the Palestinians. Support for a Palestinian state is almost tied 45% to 42%

    http://news.gallup.com/poll/203900/americans-tepid-palestinian-statehood.aspx
    American news coverage is very one sided in the extreme even the most left leaning stations have flattering coverage of Israel.
    If only the Arabs had opted for the two-state solution per UN General Assembly resolution 181 back in 1947....
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 40,384

    Americans being pro-Israel isn’t very surprising, interesting that we apparently aren’t though. Another example of how US Democrats and Labour supporters here view the world pretty differently.

    As do most Tories and Trump Republicans.

    Beyond a few Sanders supporters not many Democrats would vote for Corbyn and beyond a few Moggites not many Tories would vote for Trump
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 26,146

    Americans being pro-Israel isn’t very surprising, interesting that we apparently aren’t though. Another example of how US Democrats and Labour supporters here view the world pretty differently.

    "According to a 2009 international study commissioned by the Israeli Foreign Ministry, the greatest level of sympathy towards Israel can be found in India, with 58% of Indian respondents showing sympathy towards Israel.
    [...]
    As reported in 2015, opinion polls taken in India showed 70% and above of respondents had "favorable views of Israel."

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/India–Israel_relations
  • ElliotElliot Posts: 1,174

    Anazina said:

    kle4 said:

    Anazina said:

    Another panglossian poll. The sensible answer is: 'it began as a complete clusterfuck and has progressively worsened since then'.
    That's not a sensible answer, the point is clearly to assess people's initial expectations vs their current assessment, which your answer does not since it doesn't indicate what your initial expectation was (though it can be inferred). I don't think it covers all the options, but its purpose seems reasonable.
    I'll rephrase:

    My initial expectations were that it would be a complete clusterfuck and my current assessment is several rungs worse.
    You'd need to include the other extreme to avoid accusations of push-polling.

    "I expected Brexit to be full of sunlit uplands and I think they are in sight."
    Jokes to one side, I would struggle to answer that question. I didn't think and don't now think that Brexit would be done well or badly. I thought it would be a typical British muddle through and that's what we have got. It's definitely going better than the mess that is European integration. How many are still out of work in the EU?
  • SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 26,184
    It was only last week that our magnificent foreign secretary was bigging up Donald Trump for the Nobel peace prize. That was always going to be a hostage to fortune.
  • The_ApocalypseThe_Apocalypse Posts: 6,955

    Americans being pro-Israel isn’t very surprising, interesting that we apparently aren’t though. Another example of how US Democrats and Labour supporters here view the world pretty differently.

    "According to a 2009 international study commissioned by the Israeli Foreign Ministry, the greatest level of sympathy towards Israel can be found in India, with 58% of Indian respondents showing sympathy towards Israel.
    [...]
    As reported in 2015, opinion polls taken in India showed 70% and above of respondents had "favorable views of Israel."

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/India–Israel_relations
    ? Not sure why you’re telling me this.
  • TGOHFTGOHF Posts: 17,604
    Gammongate shows the left has time and energy - but no critical thinking , no persuasion and no desire to compromise. Just intolerance.
  • oldpoliticsoldpolitics Posts: 267
    kle4 said:

    murali_s said:

    When will this lame Tory Government come out and condemn the rogue pariah nation of Israel? When FFS?

    How does one define 'pariah' nation?
    "Doesn't sit back and do nothing when a terror movement which wants to exterminate its population sends a force of 40,000 to storm the border".

    Or more succinctly "Believes Jews are allowed to defend themselves, not die quietly like good Jews have been expected to for the last two thousand years".
  • TGOHFTGOHF Posts: 17,604
    edited May 14

    It was only last week that our magnificent foreign secretary was bigging up Donald Trump for the Nobel peace prize. That was always going to be a hostage to fortune.

    I seem to remember that WWIII was coming due to his rocket man tweets and now North Korea is at the table.

    May well bring the Palestinians to negotiations when they discover their only friends are Iran, Jezza and the corpse of the EU.
  • SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 26,184

    Americans being pro-Israel isn’t very surprising, interesting that we apparently aren’t though. Another example of how US Democrats and Labour supporters here view the world pretty differently.

    "According to a 2009 international study commissioned by the Israeli Foreign Ministry, the greatest level of sympathy towards Israel can be found in India, with 58% of Indian respondents showing sympathy towards Israel.
    [...]
    As reported in 2015, opinion polls taken in India showed 70% and above of respondents had "favorable views of Israel."

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/India–Israel_relations

    The Chinese are very pro-Israel in my experience. Maybe more accurately, very pro-Israeli technology.

This discussion has been closed.