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politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » Corbyn’s approach to Brexit risks alienating the enthusiastic

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  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 44,069
    Mortimer said:

    Foxy said:

    ydoethur said:

    Foxy said:

    rkrkrk said:

    On topic - not clear where these voters would go.
    A more left-wing Lib Dem party might have a chance of picking them up?

    I disagree with Mike that Corbyn doesn't change his mind - this has already happened on the customs union - and it is certainly possible he might go further. He certainly isn't making clear, unambiguous statements like Theresa May - he 's leaving wriggle room.

    Waiting until the govt has a plan on Brexit still seems a good strategy to me.

    It all depends on whether the next election takes place before or after Brexit. Cornyn policy becomes moot if the latter.
    Not necessarily if there continues to be a big move to go back in.


    Ironically however that may hurt Labour more. The Conservatives will surely not be interested in going back in, and most of their voters certainly won't (I know there are exceptions). Labour however have the odd situation where their voters really do seem to be desperate to turn back the clock and their leadership are resisting. In such circumstances coming up with a workable policy on Europe may actually be crucial for Labour. It would be a peerless irony if Labour were the party to split over Brexit.
    I think that there will be a powerful Rejoin movement in time, at least as politically divisive as the Eurosceptics have been these last decades.

    The Conservatives too have a difficult cluster of horses to ride, including pro EU business types, Hannanite Antlantacist free traders and socially conservative backwoodsmen in the Shires as well as WWC voters in the old coalfields who are quite Socialist economically.
    I think the rejoin threshold will be too much to stomach for many who voted Remain when it was the status quo option - Euro, EU Army etc...
    I am not expecting a major party to run on a Rejoin platform until GE 2027, but that may well be a very chastened Tory party or a post Corbyn Labour Party.

    @ydoethur seems surprised that others are not as utilitarian as he is towards the EU, but that euro-idealism is prevalent across the continent. The failure to harness it domestically and to concentrate on Project Fear was Remain's mistake.

    Still, on Euro referendums we are 1 all now, heading for best of 3. I suspect a decade off still as there needs to be a change of government first.
  • DecrepitJohnLDecrepitJohnL Posts: 13,300

    Almost every policy Trump espouses runs contrary to UK interests. No US president in living memory has been so anti-British. It’s amazing what leeway white skin and a Churchill bust can secure.
    https://twitter.com/telegraph/status/996382410509094912?s=21

    Have the Mexicans paid for the wall yet?

    The Mexicans are not represented by Liam Fox.
  • another_richardanother_richard Posts: 24,967
    rkrkrk said:


    Having no serious opposition lets the Tories off the hook, but is hugely damaging to the country.

    What is a serious opposition? It should like?

    To my mind the Labour opposition has forced the Tories (admittedly in a weak position post GE) into a number of u-turns on universal credit, Brexit bill, NHS privatisations, capping housing benefit for social housing and supported accommodation, NIC for self-employed etc.

    Labour's parliamentary tactics in getting Brexit information out have been quite clever also I think.
    Perhaps the most significant policy effect of Corbyn has been to force the government to end Osborne's freezing of the earnings level at which student debt is repaid.
  • another_richardanother_richard Posts: 24,967
    Foxy said:

    Mortimer said:

    Foxy said:

    ydoethur said:

    Foxy said:

    rkrkrk said:

    On topic - not clear where these voters would go.
    A more left-wing Lib Dem party might have a chance of picking them up?

    I disagree with Mike that Corbyn doesn't change his mind - this has already happened on the customs union - and it is certainly possible he might go further. He certainly isn't making clear, unambiguous statements like Theresa May - he 's leaving wriggle room.

    Waiting until the govt has a plan on Brexit still seems a good strategy to me.

    It all depends on whether the next election takes place before or after Brexit. Cornyn policy becomes moot if the latter.
    Not necessarily if there continues to be a big move to go back in.


    Ironically however that may hurt Labour more. The Conservatives will surely not be interested in going back in, and most of their voters certainly won't (I know there are exceptions). Labour however have the odd situation where their voters really do seem to be desperate to turn back the clock and their leadership are resisting. In such circumstances coming up with a workable policy on Europe may actually be crucial for Labour. It would be a peerless irony if Labour were the party to split over Brexit.
    I think that there will be a powerful Rejoin movement in time, at least as politically divisive as the Eurosceptics have been these last decades.

    The Conservatives too have a difficult cluster of horses to ride, including pro EU business types, Hannanite Antlantacist free traders and socially conservative backwoodsmen in the Shires as well as WWC voters in the old coalfields who are quite Socialist economically.
    I think the rejoin threshold will be too much to stomach for many who voted Remain when it was the status quo option - Euro, EU Army etc...
    I am not expecting a major party to run on a Rejoin platform until GE 2027, but that may well be a very chastened Tory party or a post Corbyn Labour Party.

    @ydoethur seems surprised that others are not as utilitarian as he is towards the EU, but that euro-idealism is prevalent across the continent. The failure to harness it domestically and to concentrate on Project Fear was Remain's mistake.

    Still, on Euro referendums we are 1 all now, heading for best of 3. I suspect a decade off still as there needs to be a change of government first.
    Euro-idealism, at least in this country, is an upper-middle class niche with a heavy undertone of social snobbery.

    PB reflects this demographic more than the country as a whole.
  • GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 20,812
    I honestly don’t think there’s much Euro idealism about.

    Simply, that many Remainers sincerely believe that leaving the EU is economically, culturally, and strategically harmful to the U.K.

    What exactly has happened to change our minds?

    Our economy has stalled, the pound in our pocket is worth less money, and foreign investment has collapsed.

    A culture of intolerance (traitors, saboteurs) has become normalised. Our political class has never looked less competent; leading figures are widely scorned. And we have made no headway on systemic issues facing the country - it’s Brexit for breakfast, lunch, and dinner.

    And Brexit makes us a less important player inside and outside Europe. Remember, for example, the “golden partnership” with China? Evaporated in June 2016.

    It is in fact cold calculation of the U.K.’s relative position globally, and it’s prospects for growth domestically, which makes me and many others continue in Remainerism, not a love of the “blue and yellow”.
  • FF43FF43 Posts: 15,545

    Morning all,

    Looks like the N Korea situation is going well. They don't want to give up nukes. Who would have thought it?

    The deal was always going to be that North Korea stops nuclear testing it no longer needs, and as all nuclear powers.do eventually, in exchange for economic and diplomatic normalisation.

    It looks like John Bolton didn't get the message. Or more likely, he got the message and didn't like it.
  • logical_songlogical_song Posts: 9,669

    Foxy said:

    Mortimer said:

    Foxy said:

    ydoethur said:

    Foxy said:

    rkrkrk said:

    On topic - not clear where these voters would go.
    A more left-wing Lib Dem party might have a chance of picking them up?

    I disagree with Mike that Corbyn doesn't change his mind - this has already happened on the customs union - and it is certainly possible he might go further. He certainly isn't making clear, unambiguous statements like Theresa May - he 's leaving wriggle room.

    Waiting until the govt has a plan on Brexit still seems a good strategy to me.

    It all depends on whether the next election takes place before or after Brexit. Cornyn policy becomes moot if the latter.
    Not necessarily if there continues to be a big move to go back in.


    Ironically however that may hurt Labour more. The Conservatives will surely not be interested in going back in, and most of their voters certainly won't (I know there are exceptions). Labour however have the odd situation where their voters really do seem to be desperate to turn back the clock and their leadership are resisting. In such circumstances coming up with a workable policy on Europe may actually be crucial for Labour. It would be a peerless irony if Labour were the party to split over Brexit.
    I think that there will be a powerful Rejoin movement in time, at least as politically divisive as the Eurosceptics have been these last decades.

    The Conservatives too have a difficult cluster of horses to ride, including pro EU business types, Hannanite Antlantacist free traders and socially conservative backwoodsmen in the Shires as well as WWC voters in the old coalfields who are quite Socialist economically.
    I think the rejoin threshold will be too much to stomach for many who voted Remain when it was the status quo option - Euro, EU Army etc...
    I am not expecting a major party to run on a Rejoin platform until GE 2027, but that may well be a very chastened Tory party or a post Corbyn Labour Party.

    @ydoethur seems surprised that others are not as utilitarian as he is towards the EU, but that euro-idealism is prevalent across the continent. The failure to harness it domestically and to concentrate on Project Fear was Remain's mistake.

    Still, on Euro referendums we are 1 all now, heading for best of 3. I suspect a decade off still as there needs to be a change of government first.
    Euro-idealism, at least in this country, is an upper-middle class niche with a heavy undertone of social snobbery.

    PB reflects this demographic more than the country as a whole.
    But maybe the lower classes, as you define them, might not relish getting poorer?
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 60,933
    Mr. Walker, you missed off the overuse of 'xenophobes' and 'racists'.

    I think government incompetence at executing the negotiations is something both sides could agree upon.
  • Richard_TyndallRichard_Tyndall Posts: 30,846
    Scott_P said:
    Yet more desperate wishful thinking.
  • AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 30,340
    It's good that the Cabinet is spending a lot of time arguing about which of two different customs models on Brexit to choose. That is what they will have to do eventually.

    It will have to choose between "take it" and "leave it".
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 58,042
    FF43 said:

    Morning all,

    Looks like the N Korea situation is going well. They don't want to give up nukes. Who would have thought it?

    The deal was always going to be that North Korea stops nuclear testing it no longer needs, and as all nuclear powers.do eventually, in exchange for economic and diplomatic normalisation.

    It looks like John Bolton didn't get the message. Or more likely, he got the message and didn't like it.
    Seems he mentioned 'Libya', the fate Kim fears most. Whether Bolton was being cack-handed or it is part of some wider scheme is unclear.
  • another_richardanother_richard Posts: 24,967
    Anyone have details as to where the 'middle-aged renters', who are the latest group to be concerned about, live in the country ?

    ' Analysis from Royal London has suggested that "as a broad rule of thumb", people whose combined pension income equates to around two-thirds of their gross wages before they retire, should not see a major change in their standard of living when they stop earning.

    As a result, the report concluded that an average earner now needed a retirement pot of around £260,000 to avoid a fall in living standards when they retired.

    However, the figure rises sharply to as high as £445,000 for non-homeowners who are still having to pay rent to a private landlord during their retirement. '

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-44125837
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 58,042
    I thought they were 'just' going to run a parallel Italian currency and let the Euro take care of itself in the background?
  • FF43FF43 Posts: 15,545
    The only rational explanation I have is that this is an exercise in distraction. The whole point of debating two non existent options at such painful length is to NOT make a decision, so the EU's draft withdrawal agreement goes through at the last minute, on the nod and without discussion. T That withdrawal agreement contains the Northern Ireland backstop that Theresa May says no British PM would ever sign up to.
  • another_richardanother_richard Posts: 24,967
    edited May 2018

    Foxy said:

    Mortimer said:



    I think the rejoin threshold will be too much to stomach for many who voted Remain when it was the status quo option - Euro, EU Army etc...

    I am not expecting a major party to run on a Rejoin platform until GE 2027, but that may well be a very chastened Tory party or a post Corbyn Labour Party.

    @ydoethur seems surprised that others are not as utilitarian as he is towards the EU, but that euro-idealism is prevalent across the continent. The failure to harness it domestically and to concentrate on Project Fear was Remain's mistake.

    Still, on Euro referendums we are 1 all now, heading for best of 3. I suspect a decade off still as there needs to be a change of government first.
    Euro-idealism, at least in this country, is an upper-middle class niche with a heavy undertone of social snobbery.

    PB reflects this demographic more than the country as a whole.
    But maybe the lower classes, as you define them, might not relish getting poorer?
    Which is why they've been so harmed by uncontrolled immigration into the areas they live in.

    Do I take it you oppose this uncontrolled immigration ?
  • AnazinaAnazina Posts: 3,487
    edited May 2018

    Anyone have details as to where the 'middle-aged renters', who are the latest group to be concerned about, live in the country ?

    ' Analysis from Royal London has suggested that "as a broad rule of thumb", people whose combined pension income equates to around two-thirds of their gross wages before they retire, should not see a major change in their standard of living when they stop earning.

    As a result, the report concluded that an average earner now needed a retirement pot of around £260,000 to avoid a fall in living standards when they retired.

    However, the figure rises sharply to as high as £445,000 for non-homeowners who are still having to pay rent to a private landlord during their retirement. '

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-44125837

    Let me guess, they are disproportionately located in That London
  • CD13CD13 Posts: 6,349
    I'm not sure the EU can survive as it is.

    My premise is that it's unstable because it's neither one thing (a fully united country), or separate countries. Its a mish-mash, at best, an unfinished cunning plan.

    There's no place for nationalism in that plan, but nationalism is persistent, especially in some of the newer entries, and in some of the what the Yanks call the 'flown over.'

    As for the rage against the dying of the EU flag here, it's becoming boring. Get over yourselves, Remainers, it's time to accept the result of a democratic referendum.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 58,042
    FF43 said:

    The only rational explanation I have is that this is an exercise in distraction. The whole point of debating two non existent options at such painful length is to NOT make a decision, so the EU's draft withdrawal agreement goes through at the last minute, on the nod and without discussion. T That withdrawal agreement contains the Northern Ireland backstop that Theresa May says no British PM would ever sign up to.
    Which would, I humbly suggest, bring down the government.
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 60,933
    Mr. 43, I agree. The only two explanations are that May is even more atrocious at politics and leadership than many thought, or, as you say, this is now intentionally winding down the clock in a bid to get a departure in name only result as the choice before Parliament will be leaving with no deal, or leaving on the terms the EU has determined.

    And for those who say "We told you so": this is happening because of the incompetence and connivance of the political class, contrary to the expressed wishes of the British people. Saying "We told you so" is not unlike a gangster reminding a shopkeeper whose store has been trashed that they warned them it could happen if they didn't pay for protection.
  • GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 20,812

    Mr. Walker, you missed off the overuse of 'xenophobes' and 'racists'.

    I think government incompetence at executing the negotiations is something both sides could agree upon.

    The government’s incompetence has been in great part due to Theresa May’s craven attempts to placate the mad Brexit wing.

    The correct way to exit, as some on here (not me) suggested *before* the vote, was via a long transition through an EFTA antechamber, accompanied by concilatory rhetoric about our future with (but not in) Europe.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 58,042
    Not sure about the choice of language here:

    https://twitter.com/jessicaelgot/status/996663164828778497
  • GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 20,812
    Anazina said:

    Anyone have details as to where the 'middle-aged renters', who are the latest group to be concerned about, live in the country ?

    ' Analysis from Royal London has suggested that "as a broad rule of thumb", people whose combined pension income equates to around two-thirds of their gross wages before they retire, should not see a major change in their standard of living when they stop earning.

    As a result, the report concluded that an average earner now needed a retirement pot of around £260,000 to avoid a fall in living standards when they retired.

    However, the figure rises sharply to as high as £445,000 for non-homeowners who are still having to pay rent to a private landlord during their retirement. '

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-44125837

    Let me guess, they are disproportionately located in That London
    Another Richard is fond of quoting stats but perhaps hasn’t noticed the vertiginous collapse in home ownership (especially, but not just in London) visible in the 35-44 cohort. They’ll be middle aged in a decade.
  • FF43FF43 Posts: 15,545

    FF43 said:

    The only rational explanation I have is that this is an exercise in distraction. The whole point of debating two non existent options at such painful length is to NOT make a decision, so the EU's draft withdrawal agreement goes through at the last minute, on the nod and without discussion. T That withdrawal agreement contains the Northern Ireland backstop that Theresa May says no British PM would ever sign up to.
    Which would, I humbly suggest, bring down the government.
    If the alternative is crash out and utter chaos, I'm not so sure people will choose chaos. The point is to force the issue. I'm not keen on the method but eventually we have to face reality.
  • FishingFishing Posts: 4,555

    Anazina said:

    Certainly that is true of NI, if one considers it part of the UK. De jure it is, but it has an odd status, given its citizens can choose instead to be citizens of the Republic.
    NI is effectively a larger version of Gibraltar with far worse weather
    And one that costs us £10 billion/year, which incidentally is roughly our net contributions to the EU. If leaving the EU lets us get rid of that expensive embarrasment, I say that's yet another benefit.

    Though I doubt the Republic would be willing to take it on when they realise how expensive it would be: that's about £3,000/year for every man, woman and child in Ireland.
  • GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 20,812
    edited May 2018
    Fishing said:

    Anazina said:

    Certainly that is true of NI, if one considers it part of the UK. De jure it is, but it has an odd status, given its citizens can choose instead to be citizens of the Republic.
    NI is effectively a larger version of Gibraltar with far worse weather
    And one that costs us £10 billion/year, which incidentally is roughly our net contributions to the EU. If leaving the EU lets us get rid of that expensive embarrasment, I say that's yet another benefit.

    Though I doubt the Republic would be willing to take it on when they realise how expensive it would be: that's about £3,000/year for every man, woman and child in Ireland.
    Maybe it wouldn’t “cost” us (a weird way of looking at it, does your non-working grandmother “cost” us?) if we had a viable regional development policy.

    We had 40 years of cack-handed centralist control after the war, and then 40 years of market knows best. It’s now clear the latter failed large parts of the country.
  • AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 30,340
    Fishing said:

    Anazina said:

    Certainly that is true of NI, if one considers it part of the UK. De jure it is, but it has an odd status, given its citizens can choose instead to be citizens of the Republic.
    NI is effectively a larger version of Gibraltar with far worse weather
    And one that costs us £10 billion/year, which incidentally is roughly our net contributions to the EU. If leaving the EU lets us get rid of that expensive embarrasment, I say that's yet another benefit.

    Though I doubt the Republic would be willing to take it on when they realise how expensive it would be: that's about £3,000/year for every man, woman and child in Ireland.
    Just as West Germany took on East Germany, so the Republic of Ireland would take on Northern Ireland.
  • Dura_AceDura_Ace Posts: 12,880
    As bad as this is and, unless you're looking at through gammon tinted Specsavers, it is bad. Imagine how much worse it would have been if Gove hadn't done Boris up the bugle and this was all being directed by BJ.

    I am not trying to make Big G climb off May's dick so I can have a ride but I think Boris would have been worse.
  • another_richardanother_richard Posts: 24,967
    Anazina said:

    Anyone have details as to where the 'middle-aged renters', who are the latest group to be concerned about, live in the country ?

    ' Analysis from Royal London has suggested that "as a broad rule of thumb", people whose combined pension income equates to around two-thirds of their gross wages before they retire, should not see a major change in their standard of living when they stop earning.

    As a result, the report concluded that an average earner now needed a retirement pot of around £260,000 to avoid a fall in living standards when they retired.

    However, the figure rises sharply to as high as £445,000 for non-homeowners who are still having to pay rent to a private landlord during their retirement. '

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-44125837

    Let me guess, they are disproportionately located in That London
    I suspect they are or more generally in south-east England.

    And places which do have large numbers will have the social inequality issues arising from these middle class have-nots together with increasing numbers of young people suffering from middle class regression.

    It will help form a permanent electoral base for Corbynism.
  • El_CapitanoEl_Capitano Posts: 3,870
    On topic, this is a significant opportunity for the (otherwise floundering) Greens, who are well positioned to pick up the idealist student vote.

    It could be an opportunity for the Lib Dems, but not with Cable (the midwife of higher tuition fees) in charge. They need a new leader, ideally a youngish one who has partly repudiated the coalition. Hmmmm...
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 47,789
    CD13 said:


    As for the rage against the dying of the EU flag here, it's becoming boring. Get over yourselves, Remainers, it's time to accept the result of a democratic referendum.

    The result of the referendum is that Brexit has been put on trial, and the evidence for the prosecution is piling up.
  • GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 20,812
    edited May 2018
    Dura_Ace said:

    As bad as this is and, unless you're looking at through gammon tinted Specsavers, it is bad. Imagine how much worse it would have been if Gove hadn't done Boris up the bugle and this was all being directed by BJ.

    I am not trying to make Big G climb off May's dick so I can have a ride but I think Boris would have been worse.

    Big G is currently on a cruise with Mrs G.
    Thankfully (for them), I believe their internet connection is limited.
  • GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 20,812

    On topic, this is a significant opportunity for the (otherwise floundering) Greens, who are well positioned to pick up the idealist student vote.

    It could be an opportunity for the Lib Dems, but not with Cable (the midwife of higher tuition fees) in charge. They need a new leader, ideally a youngish one who has partly repudiated the coalition. Hmmmm...

    You mean Tim Farron?
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 37,603
    Ended up discussing Trek vs UN/EU yesterday after a few glasses of wine with some friends. The conclusion is thus:

    Cardassia = Nazi Germany
    Klingon = WW2 Japan
    Federation = UN/WTO
    Borg = EU
    Vulcan = Buddhism
  • JSpringJSpring Posts: 95
    edited May 2018
    There are no signs that the average student is willing to alter their vote over the issue. Sure, most students aren't happy about Brexit, but the issue isn't one that dominates the thinking of them (or indeed any other major group of voters). FBPEers aren't representative of the great British population anymore than the Alt Right is.
  • another_richardanother_richard Posts: 24,967

    CD13 said:


    As for the rage against the dying of the EU flag here, it's becoming boring. Get over yourselves, Remainers, it's time to accept the result of a democratic referendum.

    The result of the referendum is that Brexit has been put on trial, and the evidence for the prosecution is piling up.
    But the prosecution predicted a recession, unemployment approaching three million, the City moving to Frankfurt, millions of immigrants either coming or going (they predicted both) and the shops empty of food.

    All you have is British government squabbling and doesn't know what its doing.

    And that was a given anyway - see anything non-Brexit related as confirmation.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 75,842
    Lewisham should remind us that Corbyn is as popular as ever in rentier gentile London.
  • AnazinaAnazina Posts: 3,487

    Mr. 43, I agree. The only two explanations are that May is even more atrocious at politics and leadership than many thought, or, as you say, this is now intentionally winding down the clock in a bid to get a departure in name only result as the choice before Parliament will be leaving with no deal, or leaving on the terms the EU has determined.

    And for those who say "We told you so": this is happening because of the incompetence and connivance of the political class, contrary to the expressed wishes of the British people. Saying "We told you so" is not unlike a gangster reminding a shopkeeper whose store has been trashed that they warned them it could happen if they didn't pay for protection.

    "The expressed wishes of the British people". LOL.

    I reminds me of that old quote: "The people have spoken but we don't know what they have said."

    There are so many varieties of Brexit one might easily infer the softest of departures from a 52-48 result. Like all right-wing provincials, you simply hear what you want to hear.
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 39,748

    HYUFD said:

    They were told that the morning after Brexit, yet the SNP lost almost half their seats at the 2017 general election and the DUP has won most seats in both post Brexit NI elections
    Maths? SNP won 56 seats at GE2015 - went down to 35 at GE2018.

    DUP secured just 36% of vote in Northern Ireland at GE17
    HYUFD believes that if you repeat a terminological inexactitude 1000 times it changes the rules of mathematics. Only 107 to go!
  • GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 20,812

    CD13 said:


    As for the rage against the dying of the EU flag here, it's becoming boring. Get over yourselves, Remainers, it's time to accept the result of a democratic referendum.

    The result of the referendum is that Brexit has been put on trial, and the evidence for the prosecution is piling up.
    But the prosecution predicted a recession, unemployment approaching three million, the City moving to Frankfurt, millions of immigrants either coming or going (they predicted both) and the shops empty of food.

    All you have is British government squabbling and doesn't know what its doing.

    And that was a given anyway - see anything non-Brexit related as confirmation.
    Your characterisation of the Remain case is unrecognisable to me. You are wasting the court’s time.
  • GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 20,812
    Anazina said:

    Mr. 43, I agree. The only two explanations are that May is even more atrocious at politics and leadership than many thought, or, as you say, this is now intentionally winding down the clock in a bid to get a departure in name only result as the choice before Parliament will be leaving with no deal, or leaving on the terms the EU has determined.

    And for those who say "We told you so": this is happening because of the incompetence and connivance of the political class, contrary to the expressed wishes of the British people. Saying "We told you so" is not unlike a gangster reminding a shopkeeper whose store has been trashed that they warned them it could happen if they didn't pay for protection.

    "The expressed wishes of the British people". LOL.

    I reminds me of that old quote: "The people have spoken but we don't know what they have said."

    There are so many varieties of Brexit one might easily infer the softest of departures from a 52-48 result. Like all right-wing provincials, you simply hear what you want to hear.
    Every time I hear “the will of the British people” from some of the loons on here, I am reminded, unpleasantly, of Alex Salmond.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 58,042
    JSpring said:

    There are no signs that the average student is willing to alter their vote over the issue. Sure, most students aren't happy about Brexit, but the issue isn't one that dominates the thinking of them (or indeed any other major group of voters). FBPEers aren't representative of the great British population anymore than the Alt Right is.

    Anyway, what choice would they have? Corbyn or the Tories. Both want Brexit.

    I suppose some students would go Liberal, perhaps if the candidate was in with a chance in certain seats, but not many. There's still the tuition fee business (although for this newer generation of students, Clegg must seem ancient history from when they were about ten).
  • DecrepitJohnLDecrepitJohnL Posts: 13,300
    edited May 2018
    Dura_Ace said:

    As bad as this is and, unless you're looking at through gammon tinted Specsavers, it is bad. Imagine how much worse it would have been if Gove hadn't done Boris up the bugle and this was all being directed by BJ.

    I am not trying to make Big G climb off May's dick so I can have a ride but I think Boris would have been worse.

    Boris would probably not have lost the majority. The one thing we can be fairly confident about is that he is a far better campaigner than Theresa May. Ironically, of course, that is why we are in this mess. As for what has happened since, who knows? The really stupid, indeed unfathomable, decision of Theresa May's was to trigger Article 50 without, apparently, the faintest idea of where she wanted to go, let alone how to get there.
  • Wulfrun_PhilWulfrun_Phil Posts: 4,572
    rkrkrk said:

    On topic - not clear where these voters would go.
    A more left-wing Lib Dem party might have a chance of picking them up?

    I disagree with Mike that Corbyn doesn't change his mind - this has already happened on the customs union - and it is certainly possible he might go further. He certainly isn't making clear, unambiguous statements like Theresa May - he 's leaving wriggle room.

    Waiting until the govt has a plan on Brexit still seems a good strategy to me.

    Corbyn hasn't changed his view on the desirability of leaving the customs union. What he has done is to give a small amount of ground to those within Labour with whom he disagrees, for purely tactical parliamentary and party reasons.
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 39,748
    FF43 said:

    Morning all,

    Looks like the N Korea situation is going well. They don't want to give up nukes. Who would have thought it?

    The deal was always going to be that North Korea stops nuclear testing it no longer needs, and as all nuclear powers.do eventually, in exchange for economic and diplomatic normalisation.

    It looks like John Bolton didn't get the message. Or more likely, he got the message and didn't like it.
    Hard to believe that they thought that a murderous dictatorship might find the Libya route attractive.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 58,042

    FF43 said:

    Morning all,

    Looks like the N Korea situation is going well. They don't want to give up nukes. Who would have thought it?

    The deal was always going to be that North Korea stops nuclear testing it no longer needs, and as all nuclear powers.do eventually, in exchange for economic and diplomatic normalisation.

    It looks like John Bolton didn't get the message. Or more likely, he got the message and didn't like it.
    Hard to believe that they thought that a murderous dictatorship might find the Libya route attractive.
    iirc from reading news magazines, old foreign policy hands, who have been around the block with NK, warned Trump officials that this would happen. They were ignored. I suppose the charitable view is their approach had been tried a hundred times and Trump likes to try new ways.
  • GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 20,812

    Dura_Ace said:

    As bad as this is and, unless you're looking at through gammon tinted Specsavers, it is bad. Imagine how much worse it would have been if Gove hadn't done Boris up the bugle and this was all being directed by BJ.

    I am not trying to make Big G climb off May's dick so I can have a ride but I think Boris would have been worse.

    Boris would probably not have lost the majority. The one thing we can be fairly confident about is that he is a far better campaigner than Theresa May. Ironically, of course, that is why we are in this mess. As for what has happened since, who knows? The really stupid, indeed unfathomable, decision of Theresa May's was to trigger Article 50 without, apparently, the faintest idea of where she wanted to go, let alone how to get there.
    Didn’t she trigger it because the Brexit loons and their outriders in the Mail etc were getting anxious that Brexit might not mean Brexit?

    As I said, her incompetence stems from following a bunch of nutters who quite literally have no plan.
  • El_CapitanoEl_Capitano Posts: 3,870

    On topic, this is a significant opportunity for the (otherwise floundering) Greens, who are well positioned to pick up the idealist student vote.

    It could be an opportunity for the Lib Dems, but not with Cable (the midwife of higher tuition fees) in charge. They need a new leader, ideally a youngish one who has partly repudiated the coalition. Hmmmm...

    You mean Tim Farron?
    Ha. Ok, let me rephrase that. A youngish one who has partly repudiated the coalition and doesn't have any views that are clearly unpalatable to 90% of students...
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 35,765

    CD13 said:


    As for the rage against the dying of the EU flag here, it's becoming boring. Get over yourselves, Remainers, it's time to accept the result of a democratic referendum.

    The result of the referendum is that Brexit has been put on trial, and the evidence for the prosecution is piling up.
    But the prosecution predicted a recession, unemployment approaching three million, the City moving to Frankfurt, millions of immigrants either coming or going (they predicted both) and the shops empty of food.

    All you have is British government squabbling and doesn't know what its doing.

    And that was a given anyway - see anything non-Brexit related as confirmation.
    Your characterisation of the Remain case is unrecognisable to me. You are wasting the court’s time.
    We didn't get the punishment budget, or the 18% fall in house prices.
  • RhubarbRhubarb Posts: 359
    edited May 2018


    Anyway, what choice would they have? Corbyn or the Tories. Both want Brexit.

    Green? Stay at home?

    HoC research thinks youth turnout dropped by ~15 percentage points between 1997 and 2001.
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 35,765

    On topic, this is a significant opportunity for the (otherwise floundering) Greens, who are well positioned to pick up the idealist student vote.

    It could be an opportunity for the Lib Dems, but not with Cable (the midwife of higher tuition fees) in charge. They need a new leader, ideally a youngish one who has partly repudiated the coalition. Hmmmm...

    Time to bring back Lembit.
  • archer101auarcher101au Posts: 1,612

    Dura_Ace said:

    As bad as this is and, unless you're looking at through gammon tinted Specsavers, it is bad. Imagine how much worse it would have been if Gove hadn't done Boris up the bugle and this was all being directed by BJ.

    I am not trying to make Big G climb off May's dick so I can have a ride but I think Boris would have been worse.

    Boris would probably not have lost the majority. The one thing we can be fairly confident about is that he is a far better campaigner than Theresa May. Ironically, of course, that is why we are in this mess. As for what has happened since, who knows? The really stupid, indeed unfathomable, decision of Theresa May's was to trigger Article 50 without, apparently, the faintest idea of where she wanted to go, let alone how to get there.
    Didn’t she trigger it because the Brexit loons and their outriders in the Mail etc were getting anxious that Brexit might not mean Brexit?

    As I said, her incompetence stems from following a bunch of nutters who quite literally have no plan.
    As a Leaver, I thought May losing her majority might be the end of a proper Brexit. But now, I think it might save the day. She is a complete coward when it comes to negotiating with the EU. I think if she had a majority she would just do the sell out and ram it down everyone's throat. There is no way that she would use a majority to perform a proper Brexit based on what she has been doing since the election.
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 39,748
    Anazina said:

    Mr. 43, I agree. The only two explanations are that May is even more atrocious at politics and leadership than many thought, or, as you say, this is now intentionally winding down the clock in a bid to get a departure in name only result as the choice before Parliament will be leaving with no deal, or leaving on the terms the EU has determined.

    And for those who say "We told you so": this is happening because of the incompetence and connivance of the political class, contrary to the expressed wishes of the British people. Saying "We told you so" is not unlike a gangster reminding a shopkeeper whose store has been trashed that they warned them it could happen if they didn't pay for protection.

    "The expressed wishes of the British people". LOL.

    I reminds me of that old quote: "The people have spoken but we don't know what they have said."

    There are so many varieties of Brexit one might easily infer the softest of departures from a 52-48 result. Like all right-wing provincials, you simply hear what you want to hear.
    Since all polling shows that the English, Welsh and Scots (probably more complicated in NI) see Britishness as a subordinate identity to their Englishness, Welshness etc, constantly ramming the 'expressed wishes of the British people' down the throats of those who voted against the decision being imposed on them isn't going to be entirely persuasive.
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 60,933
    Mr. Walker, how would you state the referendum result then?
  • GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 20,812
    Sean_F said:

    CD13 said:


    As for the rage against the dying of the EU flag here, it's becoming boring. Get over yourselves, Remainers, it's time to accept the result of a democratic referendum.

    The result of the referendum is that Brexit has been put on trial, and the evidence for the prosecution is piling up.
    But the prosecution predicted a recession, unemployment approaching three million, the City moving to Frankfurt, millions of immigrants either coming or going (they predicted both) and the shops empty of food.

    All you have is British government squabbling and doesn't know what its doing.

    And that was a given anyway - see anything non-Brexit related as confirmation.
    Your characterisation of the Remain case is unrecognisable to me. You are wasting the court’s time.
    We didn't get the punishment budget, or the 18% fall in house prices.
    Neither did we Exercise A50 the day after the vote, as Corbyn and others wanted us to.

    We’re drifting aimlessly into Brexit, blown by whichever wind blows hardest. Our relative economic decline is following suit.

    One day we’ll wake up and wonder why we feel so poor abroad. Maybe we already do!
  • Dura_AceDura_Ace Posts: 12,880

    And for those who say "We told you so": this is happening because of the incompetence and connivance of the political class, contrary to the expressed wishes of the British people. Saying "We told you so" is not unlike a gangster reminding a shopkeeper whose store has been trashed that they warned them it could happen if they didn't pay for protection.

    The only wish that was definitively expressed by 34.5% of the British people was to leave the EU. All else is inference and psychodrama.
  • OllyTOllyT Posts: 4,911

    Most people just want the Govt to get on with Brexit and STFU with all the sniping.
    I really see politicians now in a much worse light than I ever have done before.

    Most people accept we are stuck with Brexit and in that sense want the government to get on with it but that should not be mistaken for general enthusiasm. Those that want everyone to STFU are generally Leavers who would like to close down any further discussion on the consequences of their decision. It won't happen.

    I wholeheartedly agree with your last sentence though. Mrs May believes Brexit is wrong but daren't say so because of the Moggies in the Tory Party, Corbyn believes Brexit is right but daren't say so because his party, particularly the younger ones, thinks Brexit is a disaster. I can't recall a time when neither of the 2 major parties represents half the country on the key issue of the day.

  • GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 20,812

    Mr. Walker, how would you state the referendum result then?

    I would not use such pompous words to describe such a narrow majority on an issue so open to multiple interpretation as leaving the EU.

    Such rhetoric is designed to close down opposition and avoid argument.
  • archer101auarcher101au Posts: 1,612
    FF43 said:

    The only rational explanation I have is that this is an exercise in distraction. The whole point of debating two non existent options at such painful length is to NOT make a decision, so the EU's draft withdrawal agreement goes through at the last minute, on the nod and without discussion. T That withdrawal agreement contains the Northern Ireland backstop that Theresa May says no British PM would ever sign up to.
    I am sure this is correct. I think that this has been Olly Robbins plan all along - conspire with Barnier to force us to the cliff edge and then accept the backstop with basically nothing else agreed except that we have to pay the bill. May will lie through her teeth that it will not be needed because her 'latest' customs plan will work. And the moment the treaty is signed Barnier will sit back and reject every suggestion made by the UK Government and tell us that there is no alternative but the backstop.

    What sort of person starts a negotiation by conceding that if you can't agree, the other side gets exactly what they want? There is a special place in hell reserved for May and Robbins.
  • david_herdsondavid_herdson Posts: 17,401

    On topic, this is a significant opportunity for the (otherwise floundering) Greens, who are well positioned to pick up the idealist student vote.

    It could be an opportunity for the Lib Dems, but not with Cable (the midwife of higher tuition fees) in charge. They need a new leader, ideally a youngish one who has partly repudiated the coalition. Hmmmm...

    You mean Tim Farron?
    Ha. Ok, let me rephrase that. A youngish one who has partly repudiated the coalition and doesn't have any views that are clearly unpalatable to 90% of students...
    They need something like Paddy Ashdown as he was 25 years ago. Unfortunately, they're stuck with the 12 MPs they've got to choose from, which makes it a difficult task to pick someone who:

    - inspires idealists;
    - looks like someone capable of holding down at least a cabinet-level job;
    - has energy and drive;
    - can do humour and has a common touch in the media and on the doorstep;
    - is capable of identifying the right niche issues to get traction on (there's no point being a me-too to whatever Labour's doing: they'd just be drowned out);
    - can manage the party's organisation;
    - has the right mix of collegiality and authority to lead the party's MPs.

    That is a tough ask. but without it, the best that the Lib Dems can hope for is to be a localist collective, which inevitably falls flat whenever a sustained national spotlight is shone on them and their inherent weaknesses and contradictions are exposed. But the 'local bandwagon' strategy is too familiar and too much of a mantra for them to put aside, so they'll learn from none of the mistakes last time round - and they'll again be surprised and shocked next time a hung parliament destroys their reputation.
  • Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453

    What sort of person starts a negotiation by conceding that if you can't agree, the other side gets exactly what they want?

    The sort of person that says "no deal is better than a bad deal" and is cheered to the rafters by Brexiteers and their deluded accolytes...
  • rkrkrkrkrkrk Posts: 7,881
    Mortimer said:

    rkrkrk said:


    Having no serious opposition lets the Tories off the hook, but is hugely damaging to the country.

    What is a serious opposition? It should like?

    To my mind the Labour opposition has forced the Tories (admittedly in a weak position post GE) into a number of u-turns on universal credit, Brexit bill, NHS privatisations, capping housing benefit for social housing and supported accommodation, NIC for self-employed etc.

    Labour's parliamentary tactics in getting Brexit information out have been quite clever also I think.
    Almost all of those issues you cite have been prevented by cooler heads in the Tory party...
    I accept you can't perfectly divide credit between Tory Rebels or Labour opposition.
    But exposing differences in the Tory ranks is part of the Labour strategy.
  • GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 20,812
    Can anyone a name a single business that has decided to invest in the U.K. “because Brexit”?
  • rkrkrkrkrkrk Posts: 7,881

    Can anyone a name a single business that has decided to invest in the U.K. “because Brexit”?

    Breitbart?
  • ElliotElliot Posts: 1,516

    Can anyone a name a single business that has decided to invest in the U.K. “because Brexit”?

    No, because the advantages from Brexit can only come when we actually leave and can make our own laws and trade agreements. That is why continuuty Remainers are trying to sabotage those possibilities.
  • GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 20,812
    rkrkrk said:

    Can anyone a name a single business that has decided to invest in the U.K. “because Brexit”?

    Breitbart?
    Hahaha!
  • YBarddCwscYBarddCwsc Posts: 7,172
    Sean_F said:

    On topic, this is a significant opportunity for the (otherwise floundering) Greens, who are well positioned to pick up the idealist student vote.

    It could be an opportunity for the Lib Dems, but not with Cable (the midwife of higher tuition fees) in charge. They need a new leader, ideally a youngish one who has partly repudiated the coalition. Hmmmm...

    Time to bring back Lembit.
    As Lembit managed to lose a seat that had (almost) continuously been LibDem (or Liberal) for over a century, there really is no end to the misery he can inflict on the LibDems.

    I remember posting here that Lembit was a poor match to the rural constituency & would lose it.

    I recall OGH telling me the people of Montgomeryshire would be grateful for the wind farms in the constituency, and antifrank telling me that I was an urbanophobe.

    Montgomeryshire is still drifting away from the LibDems, with a 5.5 % swing to the Tories in 2017. They now have a 9k majority & over 50 per cent of the vote.

    I don’t see that constituency returning to the LibDems until all memory of Lembit has been forgotten.
  • ElliotElliot Posts: 1,516

    Mr. Walker, how would you state the referendum result then?

    I would not use such pompous words to describe such a narrow majority on an issue so open to multiple interpretation as leaving the EU.

    Such rhetoric is designed to close down opposition and avoid argument.
    And yet we all know Remainers would have interpreted a Remain vote as one for further integration. Just look at how pro-EU people claimed Labour's election was democratic legitimacy for signing Lisbon.
  • ElliotElliot Posts: 1,516
    Sean_F said:

    CD13 said:


    As for the rage against the dying of the EU flag here, it's becoming boring. Get over yourselves, Remainers, it's time to accept the result of a democratic referendum.

    The result of the referendum is that Brexit has been put on trial, and the evidence for the prosecution is piling up.
    But the prosecution predicted a recession, unemployment approaching three million, the City moving to Frankfurt, millions of immigrants either coming or going (they predicted both) and the shops empty of food.

    All you have is British government squabbling and doesn't know what its doing.

    And that was a given anyway - see anything non-Brexit related as confirmation.
    Your characterisation of the Remain case is unrecognisable to me. You are wasting the court’s time.
    We didn't get the punishment budget, or the 18% fall in house prices.
    Or the refugee camps in Kent.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 113,969
    On the day Sam Allardyce could have been naming his England World Cup squad he’s sacked by Everton.
  • Richard_TyndallRichard_Tyndall Posts: 30,846
    edited May 2018

    Can anyone a name a single business that has decided to invest in the U.K. “because Brexit”?

    Dyson. He has said in interviews that Brexit is one of the reasons he is bringing business back into the UK and has announced a new £2.5 billion investment.

    "“Dyson’s exporting strength and commitment to creating jobs in Britain is a real success story that demonstrates the opportunity that our plan to create a truly global Britain can present.”
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 60,933
    Mr. Ace, by that definition, we didn't vote to remain in the EEC in the 1970s.

    Mr. Walker, the £9m leaflet the Government delivered to the electorate before spending limits came in stated that what we voted would be implemented. It didn't include any thresholds. It didn't make special provision for narrow results.

    Had we voted 52% Remain, would the political class and pro-EU types be suggesting we withdraw from certain aspects of the EU? Of course not. But because we voted 52% Leave they're pretending that's justification for keeping the tentacles of the EU wrapped around the UK.
  • GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 20,812
    edited May 2018

    Mr. Ace, by that definition, we didn't vote to remain in the EEC in the 1970s.

    Mr. Walker, the £9m leaflet the Government delivered to the electorate before spending limits came in stated that what we voted would be implemented. It didn't include any thresholds. It didn't make special provision for narrow results.

    Had we voted 52% Remain, would the political class and pro-EU types be suggesting we withdraw from certain aspects of the EU? Of course not. But because we voted 52% Leave they're pretending that's justification for keeping the tentacles of the EU wrapped around the UK.

    Actually had we voted Remain, we would have enacted a modest de-tentacling - to use your overly-emotive phrase - per Cameron’s negotiation.

    This idea that a Remain vote would be read as further intervention is a classic Brexiter canard.
    It’s the phrenology de nos jours.
  • MortimerMortimer Posts: 13,921

    Mr. Ace, by that definition, we didn't vote to remain in the EEC in the 1970s.

    Mr. Walker, the £9m leaflet the Government delivered to the electorate before spending limits came in stated that what we voted would be implemented. It didn't include any thresholds. It didn't make special provision for narrow results.

    Had we voted 52% Remain, would the political class and pro-EU types be suggesting we withdraw from certain aspects of the EU? Of course not. But because we voted 52% Leave they're pretending that's justification for keeping the tentacles of the EU wrapped around the UK.

    Actually had we voted Remain, we would have enacted a modest de-tentacling - to use your overly-emotive phrase per Cameron’s negotiation.

    This idea that a Remain vote would be read as further intervention is a classic Brexiter canard.
    It’s the phrenology de nos jours.
    Tentacles feel very real to me, right now.

    The EU are trying to pass a law to make the import of books more than 250 years old more difficult. Even if they were originally from Europe. Even if they cost £20 - and yes, some old books really are that cheap.

  • GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 20,812

    Can anyone a name a single business that has decided to invest in the U.K. “because Brexit”?

    Dyson. He has said in interviews that Brexit is one of the reasons he is bringing business back into the UK and has announced a new £2.5 billion investment.

    "“Dyson’s exporting strength and commitment to creating jobs in Britain is a real success story that demonstrates the opportunity that our plan to create a truly global Britain can present.”
    Haha. That paragraph of PR waffle is so incredibly tortured. One can hear Mr Dyson insisting a link to Brexit be made in the face of all logic and grammar.
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 60,933
    Mr. Walker, the Lords are claiming a vote to leave the EU was a vote to have the EU dictate our trade policy. I suspect you're being optimistic at best.

    Mr. Mortimer, that sounds as stupid as the EU #VATmess which shafted a load of small and micro-businesses whilst helping Amazon et al., even though the policy's overt objective was to get more tax from Amazon et al.
  • nunuonenunuone Posts: 1,138
    All future police recruits in England and Wales will have to have a degree.

    A really dumb idea even if most at the moment already do.
  • GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 20,812
    Mortimer said:

    Mr. Ace, by that definition, we didn't vote to remain in the EEC in the 1970s.

    Mr. Walker, the £9m leaflet the Government delivered to the electorate before spending limits came in stated that what we voted would be implemented. It didn't include any thresholds. It didn't make special provision for narrow results.

    Had we voted 52% Remain, would the political class and pro-EU types be suggesting we withdraw from certain aspects of the EU? Of course not. But because we voted 52% Leave they're pretending that's justification for keeping the tentacles of the EU wrapped around the UK.

    Actually had we voted Remain, we would have enacted a modest de-tentacling - to use your overly-emotive phrase per Cameron’s negotiation.

    This idea that a Remain vote would be read as further intervention is a classic Brexiter canard.
    It’s the phrenology de nos jours.
    Tentacles feel very real to me, right now.

    The EU are trying to pass a law to make the import of books more than 250 years old more difficult. Even if they were originally from Europe. Even if they cost £20 - and yes, some old books really are that cheap.

    Yep. Sounds like bullshit.
    No one ever said the EU was run by philosopher-kings.

    How is the lobbying going to prevent it?
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 60,933
    Mr. One, aye, bloody stupid. But then, the police apparently think the English flag is imperialistic, and that investigating widespread child abuse might be a bad idea as it could be 'culturally insensitive'. They're working damned hard to lose as much public support as possible.
  • david_herdsondavid_herdson Posts: 17,401
    Dura_Ace said:

    And for those who say "We told you so": this is happening because of the incompetence and connivance of the political class, contrary to the expressed wishes of the British people. Saying "We told you so" is not unlike a gangster reminding a shopkeeper whose store has been trashed that they warned them it could happen if they didn't pay for protection.

    The only wish that was definitively expressed by 34.5% of the British people was to leave the EU. All else is inference and psychodrama.
    You're really not helping yourself by using such a daft statistic. What are you suggesting? That the only valid polls are those in which more than 50% of the population back one side or another? Give a single example of that in history? Indeed, how many referendums or elections have there been where even 50%+ of the *electorate* has backed one side or another?
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 61,575

    Mr. Ace, by that definition, we didn't vote to remain in the EEC in the 1970s.

    Mr. Walker, the £9m leaflet the Government delivered to the electorate before spending limits came in stated that what we voted would be implemented. It didn't include any thresholds. It didn't make special provision for narrow results.

    Had we voted 52% Remain, would the political class and pro-EU types be suggesting we withdraw from certain aspects of the EU? Of course not...

    Perhaps not - but those on the Leave side would certainly have been making the case, based on the support of a large minority of voters, for a strong implementation of Cameron's deal, and common cause with the more sceptical EU members.
    And rightly so.

    Your point seems rather a confused one.
  • SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 20,401
  • ElliotElliot Posts: 1,516

    Dura_Ace said:

    And for those who say "We told you so": this is happening because of the incompetence and connivance of the political class, contrary to the expressed wishes of the British people. Saying "We told you so" is not unlike a gangster reminding a shopkeeper whose store has been trashed that they warned them it could happen if they didn't pay for protection.

    The only wish that was definitively expressed by 34.5% of the British people was to leave the EU. All else is inference and psychodrama.
    You're really not helping yourself by using such a daft statistic. What are you suggesting? That the only valid polls are those in which more than 50% of the population back one side or another? Give a single example of that in history? Indeed, how many referendums or elections have there been where even 50%+ of the *electorate* has backed one side or another?
    The referendum turnout was so high that more people voted for Brexit than anything else in British history. People dismissing its democratic legitimacy just show they don't appreciate democracy very much.

    But then we know that, given they didn't give a damn about the shenanigans over Lisbon, in the UK, Holland or France. Or, for that matter, the EU's change of leadership in Italy and Greece.
  • GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 20,812
    edited May 2018
    Why do Brexiters claim that food is going to be cheaper outside the EU?

    According to Numbeo, grocery prices are 60% *higher* in New York than in London.

    https://www.numbeo.com/cost-of-living/compare_cities.jsp?country1=United+Kingdom&country2=United+States&city1=London&city2=New+York,+NY
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 44,069

    Mr. One, aye, bloody stupid. But then, the police apparently think the English flag is imperialistic, and that investigating widespread child abuse might be a bad idea as it could be 'culturally insensitive'. They're working damned hard to lose as much public support as possible.

    I think that the police advice on waving the English flag relates to travelling fans at the World Cup getting drunk and noisy in public. Sounds sensible advice to me! I shall be waving my EU flag at the SF though.
  • ElliotElliot Posts: 1,516

    Can anyone a name a single business that has decided to invest in the U.K. “because Brexit”?

    Dyson. He has said in interviews that Brexit is one of the reasons he is bringing business back into the UK and has announced a new £2.5 billion investment.

    "“Dyson’s exporting strength and commitment to creating jobs in Britain is a real success story that demonstrates the opportunity that our plan to create a truly global Britain can present.”
    Haha. That paragraph of PR waffle is so incredibly tortured. One can hear Mr Dyson insisting a link to Brexit be made in the face of all logic and grammar.
    Grade A goalpost moving there!
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 55,019
    Dura_Ace said:

    As bad as this is and, unless you're looking at through gammon tinted Specsavers, it is bad. Imagine how much worse it would have been if Gove hadn't done Boris up the bugle and this was all being directed by BJ.

    I am not trying to make Big G climb off May's dick so I can have a ride but I think Boris would have been worse.

    Perhaps you should keep your personal sexual fantasies to yourself.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 44,069

    Why do Brexiters claim that food is going to be cheaper outside the EU?

    According to Numbeo, grocery prices are 60% *higher* in New York than in London.

    https://www.numbeo.com/cost-of-living/compare_cities.jsp?country1=United+Kingdom&country2=United+States&city1=London&city2=New+York,+NY

    Indeed, it is those two EU based companies, Aldi and Lidl, that have driven down UK grocery prices as a benefit of the Single Market.
  • El_CapitanoEl_Capitano Posts: 3,870

    On topic, this is a significant opportunity for the (otherwise floundering) Greens, who are well positioned to pick up the idealist student vote.

    It could be an opportunity for the Lib Dems, but not with Cable (the midwife of higher tuition fees) in charge. They need a new leader, ideally a youngish one who has partly repudiated the coalition. Hmmmm...

    You mean Tim Farron?
    Ha. Ok, let me rephrase that. A youngish one who has partly repudiated the coalition and doesn't have any views that are clearly unpalatable to 90% of students...
    They need something like Paddy Ashdown as he was 25 years ago. Unfortunately, they're stuck with the 12 MPs they've got to choose from, which makes it a difficult task to pick someone who:

    - inspires idealists;
    - looks like someone capable of holding down at least a cabinet-level job;
    - has energy and drive;
    - can do humour and has a common touch in the media and on the doorstep;
    - is capable of identifying the right niche issues to get traction on (there's no point being a me-too to whatever Labour's doing: they'd just be drowned out);
    - can manage the party's organisation;
    - has the right mix of collegiality and authority to lead the party's MPs.

    That is a tough ask. but without it, the best that the Lib Dems can hope for is to be a localist collective, which inevitably falls flat whenever a sustained national spotlight is shone on them and their inherent weaknesses and contradictions are exposed. But the 'local bandwagon' strategy is too familiar and too much of a mantra for them to put aside, so they'll learn from none of the mistakes last time round - and they'll again be surprised and shocked next time a hung parliament destroys their reputation.
    That's a good summary of the required qualities for a Lib Dem leader, and obviously none of the 12 fulfil all of them - some more than others.

    But I wouldn't be so pessimistic about their future chances. It's an interesting thought experiment to wonder about what would have happened in 2010 were the much-missed Charles Kennedy still leading the party (and not an alcoholic, obviously) - he was, of course, the one MP who voted against the coalition. Today, I tend to think they need a new Kennedy, not a new Ashdown.
  • ElliotElliot Posts: 1,516
    Foxy said:

    Why do Brexiters claim that food is going to be cheaper outside the EU?

    According to Numbeo, grocery prices are 60% *higher* in New York than in London.

    https://www.numbeo.com/cost-of-living/compare_cities.jsp?country1=United+Kingdom&country2=United+States&city1=London&city2=New+York,+NY

    Indeed, it is those two EU based companies, Aldi and Lidl, that have driven down UK grocery prices as a benefit of the Single Market.
    Strange how both are operating in a similar way in the USA.

    The New York point is particularly stupid. Anyway who knows anything about the retail market will be able to tell you their prices are high because of sky high property costs in Manhattan. Brexit, or course, will reduce immigration and slow property cost growth.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 44,069
    Mortimer said:

    Mr. Ace, by that definition, we didn't vote to remain in the EEC in the 1970s.

    Mr. Walker, the £9m leaflet the Government delivered to the electorate before spending limits came in stated that what we voted would be implemented. It didn't include any thresholds. It didn't make special provision for narrow results.

    Had we voted 52% Remain, would the political class and pro-EU types be suggesting we withdraw from certain aspects of the EU? Of course not. But because we voted 52% Leave they're pretending that's justification for keeping the tentacles of the EU wrapped around the UK.

    Actually had we voted Remain, we would have enacted a modest de-tentacling - to use your overly-emotive phrase per Cameron’s negotiation.

    This idea that a Remain vote would be read as further intervention is a classic Brexiter canard.
    It’s the phrenology de nos jours.
    Tentacles feel very real to me, right now.

    The EU are trying to pass a law to make the import of books more than 250 years old more difficult. Even if they were originally from Europe. Even if they cost £20 - and yes, some old books really are that cheap.

    Presumably we will have to shadow such rules as part of Max Fac as part of Brexit, with no longer any say over the rules.

    Not something that I will lose sleep over though.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 44,069
    Elliot said:

    Foxy said:

    Why do Brexiters claim that food is going to be cheaper outside the EU?

    According to Numbeo, grocery prices are 60% *higher* in New York than in London.

    https://www.numbeo.com/cost-of-living/compare_cities.jsp?country1=United+Kingdom&country2=United+States&city1=London&city2=New+York,+NY

    Indeed, it is those two EU based companies, Aldi and Lidl, that have driven down UK grocery prices as a benefit of the Single Market.
    Strange how both are operating in a similar way in the USA.
    Yes, it shows how the EU is not holding up trade with the rest of the world, at least for successful countries like Germany.
  • GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 20,812
    Elliot said:

    Foxy said:

    Why do Brexiters claim that food is going to be cheaper outside the EU?

    According to Numbeo, grocery prices are 60% *higher* in New York than in London.

    https://www.numbeo.com/cost-of-living/compare_cities.jsp?country1=United+Kingdom&country2=United+States&city1=London&city2=New+York,+NY

    Indeed, it is those two EU based companies, Aldi and Lidl, that have driven down UK grocery prices as a benefit of the Single Market.
    Strange how both are operating in a similar way in the USA.

    The New York point is particularly stupid. Anyway who knows anything about the retail market will be able to tell you their prices are high because of sky high property costs in Manhattan. Brexit, or course, will reduce immigration and slow property cost growth.
    You’re right. We don’t have sky high property costs in London at all.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 76,274
    edited May 2018
    Corbyn won't suffer from his position of not being a fan of the EU, unlike the cult members. Like Trump, he is lucky that people seems to assign their views as his (see polling where just as many thought he was massively pro-EU as massively anti-EU).

    A bet a load of youngsters still think that Jezza will pay off all their student debt if he gets in.
  • SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 38,879
    Elliot said:

    Foxy said:

    Why do Brexiters claim that food is going to be cheaper outside the EU?

    According to Numbeo, grocery prices are 60% *higher* in New York than in London.

    https://www.numbeo.com/cost-of-living/compare_cities.jsp?country1=United+Kingdom&country2=United+States&city1=London&city2=New+York,+NY

    Indeed, it is those two EU based companies, Aldi and Lidl, that have driven down UK grocery prices as a benefit of the Single Market.
    Strange how both are operating in a similar way in the USA.

    The New York point is particularly stupid. Anyway who knows anything about the retail market will be able to tell you their prices are high because of sky high property costs in Manhattan. Brexit, or course, will reduce immigration and slow property cost growth.

    New York is not only Manhattan. Property costs in Queens, the Bronx and Staten Island can’t be described as sky high. It was noticeable how much more expensive staples like bread, mill and eggs were in Halifax, Nove Scotia, when we spent the summer there in 2016.

  • Richard_TyndallRichard_Tyndall Posts: 30,846
    Foxy said:

    Elliot said:

    Foxy said:

    Why do Brexiters claim that food is going to be cheaper outside the EU?

    According to Numbeo, grocery prices are 60% *higher* in New York than in London.

    https://www.numbeo.com/cost-of-living/compare_cities.jsp?country1=United+Kingdom&country2=United+States&city1=London&city2=New+York,+NY

    Indeed, it is those two EU based companies, Aldi and Lidl, that have driven down UK grocery prices as a benefit of the Single Market.
    Strange how both are operating in a similar way in the USA.
    Yes, it shows how the EU is not holding up trade with the rest of the world, at least for successful countries like Germany.
    So nothing to do with the Single Market then as you previously claimed. Unless of course the US has joined the SM and we didn't notice.
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