Howdy, Stranger!

It looks like you're new here. Sign in or register to get started.

Options

politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » On another planet

SystemSystem Posts: 11,683
edited May 2018 in General

imagepoliticalbetting.com » Blog Archive » On another planet

Politics is supposed to be the art of the possible. In one sense that’s just a truism: that which happens is, by definition, within the bounds of the possible. However, this week’s shown up again that Bismarck’s aphorism is only true to a degree. There are plenty of politicians who are not interested in the possible but only in their own priorities. And there are others who are sufficiently deluded as to believe that their own priorities are possible, against all available evidence.

Read the full story here


«1345

Comments

  • Options
    CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 59,677
    First! Like Mrs May & Leave
  • Options
    Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 60,983
    Well, quite. It's a deluded position.

    FPT: Incidentally, BBC News at Ten had a segment on Scotland possibly using the pound without a currency union. Good subject, except Sarah Smith failed to point out the glaring problems with such an approach (she did, I think, say there's be no central bank etc, but failed to elaborate about the significant consequences for the financial services sector). Morris Dancer was not impressed.
  • Options
    CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 59,677
    it’d be an act of both desperation and foolishness were Tory MPs to trigger one – and while some might be desperate, they’re not foolish.

    The Tory Party only ever panics in a crisis

    Agree entirely Mr Herdson - MPs should bend their efforts to the task in hand - and for once, Boris was right - the voters want a rest from politicians.
  • Options
    williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 48,067
    Some Tory MPs have lost the plot entirely.

    https://twitter.com/dkshrewsbury/status/999668615585595392?s=21
  • Options
    rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 53,995
    What an excellent article.

    And now, to bed.
  • Options
    JonathanJonathan Posts: 20,901
    No election necessary ?

    Where have I heard that before?
  • Options
    DecrepitJohnLDecrepitJohnL Posts: 13,300
    edited May 2018
    Replacing Theresa May would not need a confidence vote: just for the men in grey suits to hand her the metaphorical glass of whisky and pearl-handled revolver.

    ETA: this seems more likely than yet another election being called by the current or new prime minister.
  • Options
    Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 60,983
    F1: Leclerc and Vettel reportedly got along very well in the press conference.

    That, couple with Leclerc performing well (and being lauded by Hamilton/Vettel), *and* being a young Ferrari driver means you should keep your eyes peeled for a market on him replacing Raikkonen. I'd be somewhat surprised if it didn't happen.
  • Options
    JonathanJonathan Posts: 20,901

    Replacing Theresa May would not need a confidence vote: just for the men in grey suits to hand her the metaphorical glass of whisky and pearl-handled revolver.

    No, better of scheduling another a walk in Wales. If they gave her a revolver, she’d miss.
  • Options
    NigelbNigelb Posts: 62,613

    Some Tory MPs have lost the plot entirely.

    https://twitter.com/dkshrewsbury/status/999668615585595392?s=21

    Which rather gives the lie to the last line of Mr Herson’s fine article (which was the only one which didn’t entirely persuade me).

  • Options
    OblitusSumMeOblitusSumMe Posts: 9,143
    I think the mistake made in the thread header is to take the argument for a general election at face value. I think it is very unlikely that the Conservative MP genuinely believes that a new leader, a general election and an unlikely majority will suddenly ensure that the EU instantly roll over to have their tummy tickled by the hard Brexiteers.

    The objective is to construct a superficial narrative to establish the idea that there was an obvious alternative to whatever reality the government is forced to inhabit. When the contradictions of the Brexit campaign collapse when they encounter reality it is vital that there are many superficial alternatives to blame for that collapse. This is one of them.

    In many respects the political debate in the UK since the referendum has been a process of trying to create a narrative of blame for when Brexit inevitably fails to live up to its fantastical campaign promises. There is very little debate about the real trade offs that exist between different priorities.
  • Options
    Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    "it’d be an act of both desperation and foolishness were Tory MPs to trigger one – and while some might be desperate, they’re not foolish."

    Please provide any evidence for this outlandish claim
  • Options
    NigelbNigelb Posts: 62,613

    F1: Leclerc and Vettel reportedly got along very well in the press conference.

    That, couple with Leclerc performing well (and being lauded by Hamilton/Vettel), *and* being a young Ferrari driver means you should keep your eyes peeled for a market on him replacing Raikkonen. I'd be somewhat surprised if it didn't happen.

    Perez and Sainz are likely gnashing their teeth...

    I wouldn’t entirely rule out Hamilton moving to Ferrari, though, slightly unlikely though that might be.

  • Options
    OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 31,990

    Replacing Theresa May would not need a confidence vote: just for the men in grey suits to hand her the metaphorical glass of whisky and pearl-handled revolver.

    ETA: this seems more likely than yet another election being called by the current or new prime minister.

    I suspect that if Mrs M, or the Tories were to call another election it wouldn’t be necessary for Labour to campaign energetically. The public, even that part of it which believes the Daily Mail, would be incensed at the prospect of more public politicking and would come down like a ton of bricks on those percieved to have brought it about.
    It would be 1997 all over again.
  • Options
    TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 40,109

    Some Tory MPs have lost the plot entirely.

    https://twitter.com/dkshrewsbury/status/999668615585595392?s=21

    Tbf I doubt Saudi Dan was in possession of much of the plot in the first place.
  • Options
    ydoethurydoethur Posts: 67,242
    'Any strongly Leave Tory MP who thinks that their cause would be aided by an early election is on another planet.'

    If only Gove and Boris were indeed on another planet.

    Could they take Corbyn, Macdonnell, Juncker, Selmayr, Putin, Trump and Kim Jong Un with them?

    Think of the benefits to the planet...
  • Options
    AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 30,340
    All extremely sensible. I fear it will not sink in with its intended audience. There are enough Tory MPs who justify the old insult “The Stupid Party” to cause some serious disruption based on counterproductive manoeuvrings.
  • Options
    CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 59,677

    Replacing Theresa May would not need a confidence vote: just for the men in grey suits to hand her the metaphorical glass of whisky and pearl-handled revolver.

    ETA: this seems more likely than yet another election being called by the current or new prime minister.

    I suspect that if Mrs M, or the Tories were to call another election it wouldn’t be necessary for Labour to campaign energetically. The public, even that part of it which believes the Daily Mail, would be incensed at the prospect of more public politicking and would come down like a ton of bricks on those percieved to have brought it about.
    It would be 1997 all over again.
    More like 1974 'Who govern's Britain?' Well, since you ask......
  • Options
    NigelbNigelb Posts: 62,613
    ydoethur said:

    'Any strongly Leave Tory MP who thinks that their cause would be aided by an early election is on another planet.'

    If only Gove and Boris were indeed on another planet.

    Could they take Corbyn, Macdonnell, Juncker, Selmayr, Putin, Trump and Kim Jong Un with them?

    Think of the benefits to the planet...

    Which one could you mean... ?
    :smile:
  • Options
    AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 30,340

    Some Tory MPs have lost the plot entirely.

    https://twitter.com/dkshrewsbury/status/999668615585595392?s=21

    What is it about the Second World War that attracts Conservative Leavers like moths to a flame?
  • Options
    ydoethurydoethur Posts: 67,242

    Replacing Theresa May would not need a confidence vote: just for the men in grey suits to hand her the metaphorical glass of whisky and pearl-handled revolver.

    ETA: this seems more likely than yet another election being called by the current or new prime minister.

    I suspect that if Mrs M, or the Tories were to call another election it wouldn’t be necessary for Labour to campaign energetically. The public, even that part of it which believes the Daily Mail, would be incensed at the prospect of more public politicking and would come down like a ton of bricks on those percieved to have brought it about.
    It would be 1997 all over again.
    I don't think it would be that bad given Labour's weakness and disarray, but I would still expect Labour to emerge as the largest party.

    However since Corbyn would last all of three months before another election - as he has neither political sense nor any workable policies - you wonder if he might subsequently get punished as well.
  • Options
    OblitusSumMeOblitusSumMe Posts: 9,143
    Constitutionally I think we are in an awful pickle.

    There is the potential for the government to manifestly lose the Confidence of the House in its Brexit policy, but it is very unlikely that it would lose a vote on a formal vote of No Confidence as David explains.

    This would create a zombie government that existed with only the formal confidence of the house, but without the actual confidence of the house, unable to enact its policy in law, but also too scared of an election to go to the polls and able to survive Parliamentary procedure that would force an election.

    The Fixed Term Parliaments Act needs to go and we need to fix this flaw in the Constitution.
  • Options
    ydoethurydoethur Posts: 67,242
    Nigelb said:

    ydoethur said:

    'Any strongly Leave Tory MP who thinks that their cause would be aided by an early election is on another planet.'

    If only Gove and Boris were indeed on another planet.

    Could they take Corbyn, Macdonnell, Juncker, Selmayr, Putin, Trump and Kim Jong Un with them?

    Think of the benefits to the planet...

    Which one could you mean... ?
    :smile:
    Oops, I see what you mean. But definitely ours!
  • Options
    Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 60,983
    Mr. B, Sainz may have an opportunity to move to Red Bull and, if not, Renault may soon be title contenders.

    Vettel has a say in his team mate. I doubt he'd say yes to Hamilton.

    Mr. Me, the absence of a sunset clause in the FTP was and is ineffably stupid.
  • Options
    Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453

    Constitutionally I think we are in an awful pickle.

    There is the potential for the government to manifestly lose the Confidence of the House in its Brexit policy, but it is very unlikely that it would lose a vote on a formal vote of No Confidence as David explains.

    [SNIP]

    The Fixed Term Parliaments Act needs to go and we need to fix this flaw in the Constitution.

    This is not a flaw in the constitution. The flaw is Brexit.

    There is no version of Brexit that commands a majority in the House or the Country.

    Anyone who says "will of the people" or "they know what they voted for" is a charlatan.

    When even the architects are going public with their concerns about how Brexit will actually turn out, the 52% can no longer be assumed to be in favour...
  • Options
    ThomasNasheThomasNashe Posts: 4,978

    Some Tory MPs have lost the plot entirely.

    https://twitter.com/dkshrewsbury/status/999668615585595392?s=21

    What is it about the Second World War that attracts Conservative Leavers like moths to a flame?
    As they see it, it was when everything began to go wrong. Victory was followed by loss of empire, welfare state, immigration ...
  • Options
    ydoethurydoethur Posts: 67,242
    Meanwhile, Sir Richard Branson is literally trying to leave the planet...

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-44257670
  • Options
    NigelbNigelb Posts: 62,613

    Mr. B, Sainz may have an opportunity to move to Red Bull and, if not, Renault may soon be title contenders.

    Vettel has a say in his team mate. I doubt he'd say yes to Hamilton....

    He’s said this week that he wouldn’t say no, and the two have been noticeably more friendly than of late. OTOH, could be just about giving Mercedes a bit of incentive to look generously at their offer for renewing his contact.
  • Options
    OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 31,990
    edited May 2018

    Replacing Theresa May would not need a confidence vote: just for the men in grey suits to hand her the metaphorical glass of whisky and pearl-handled revolver.

    ETA: this seems more likely than yet another election being called by the current or new prime minister.

    I suspect that if Mrs M, or the Tories were to call another election it wouldn’t be necessary for Labour to campaign energetically. The public, even that part of it which believes the Daily Mail, would be incensed at the prospect of more public politicking and would come down like a ton of bricks on those percieved to have brought it about.
    It would be 1997 all over again.
    More like 1974 'Who govern's Britain?' Well, since you ask......
    While that didn’t work out well for the Tories (!) it didn’t lead to a particularly stable Government either. I rather agree with Dr Ydoethur that a Corbyn led government wouldn’t be that stable either. He’s no Harold Wilson.

    (Dr Ydoethur: Suspect tautology!)
  • Options
    NigelbNigelb Posts: 62,613
    I hadn’t seen this story, but it does raise a serious question about the growing monopoly power of Amazon. If you come to rely on them, what do you do if you get banned as a customer ? And ought their untrammelled power to ban customers be constrained in some way ?
    https://slate.com/business/2018/05/amazon-is-banning-customers-for-making-too-many-returns.html
  • Options
    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 117,007
    edited May 2018
    Agreed, if Brexiteer Tory MPs trigger an early general election they may end up with the Remainer dominated, pro soft Brexit LDs holding the balance of power in the Commons on current polls and not the pro Brexit DUP.

    Although it does seem the public still want tighter immigration controls, a Mori poll for the Telegraph today shows 2/3 of UK voters want a 'hostile environment' for illegal immigrants

    https://mobile.twitter.com/IpsosMORI/status/1000268248473112577
  • Options
    CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 59,677

    -Six in ten (60%) people support an immigration policy that is designed to make it as difficult as possible for people who do not have the right to be in the UK to stay here.

    - But almost two-thirds (64%) also prioritise that people who have the right to be here are not forced to leave, even if this means that some illegal immigrants are not deported

    - The majority of the public (63%) say they are ashamed of how Britain has treated the Windrush generation and six in ten (61%) agree that the Windrush scandal is mainly a result of government incompetence rather than the rules on immigration


    https://www.ipsos.com/ipsos-mori/en-uk/attitudes-towards-immigration-after-windrush
  • Options
    ydoethurydoethur Posts: 67,242

    Replacing Theresa May would not need a confidence vote: just for the men in grey suits to hand her the metaphorical glass of whisky and pearl-handled revolver.

    ETA: this seems more likely than yet another election being called by the current or new prime minister.

    I suspect that if Mrs M, or the Tories were to call another election it wouldn’t be necessary for Labour to campaign energetically. The public, even that part of it which believes the Daily Mail, would be incensed at the prospect of more public politicking and would come down like a ton of bricks on those percieved to have brought it about.
    It would be 1997 all over again.
    More like 1974 'Who govern's Britain?' Well, since you ask......
    While that didn’t work out well for the Tories (!) it didn’t lead to a particularly stable Government either. I rather agree with Dr Ydoethur that a Corbyn led government wouldn’t be that stable either. He’s no Harold Wilson.

    (Dr Ydoethur: Suspect tautology!)
    Dr the Doctor is indeed a tautology...
  • Options
    Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 60,983
    Mr. B, it's quite difficult, well, for me at least, to see how monopolies-type legislation can be applied to the internet. With physical shops you can have a ceiling for a sector (say, 25-35% of supermarkets belonging to one chain) but the ephemeral nature of the internet makes that rather tricky.

    On Hamilton: lots of drivers want to drive for Ferrari just because of the history. I'd still be surprised if Vettel gave Hamilton the nod.
  • Options
    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 117,007

    Replacing Theresa May would not need a confidence vote: just for the men in grey suits to hand her the metaphorical glass of whisky and pearl-handled revolver.

    ETA: this seems more likely than yet another election being called by the current or new prime minister.

    I suspect that if Mrs M, or the Tories were to call another election it wouldn’t be necessary for Labour to campaign energetically. The public, even that part of it which believes the Daily Mail, would be incensed at the prospect of more public politicking and would come down like a ton of bricks on those percieved to have brought it about.
    It would be 1997 all over again.
    There is no way Corbyn will be getting a 1997 Blair style landslide even if he does become PM, about 40% of voters will vote Tory regardless as long as he remains leader compared to just 31% who voted Tory when Blair was Labour leader in 1997
  • Options
    ThomasNasheThomasNashe Posts: 4,978
    edited May 2018
    HYUFD said:

    Agreed, if Brexiteer Tory MPs trigger an early general election they may end up with the Remainer dominated, pro soft Brexit LDs holding the balance of power in the Commons on current polls and not the pro Brexit DUP.

    Although it does seem the public still want tighter immigration controls, a Mori poll for the Telegraph today shows 2/3 of UK voters want a 'hostile environment' for illegal immigrants

    https://mobile.twitter.com/IpsosMORI/status/1000268248473112577

    The problem is they also want a growing economy and a functioning NHS. These two things rather depend on immigration controls of the looser, rather than tighter, variety.
  • Options
    ydoethurydoethur Posts: 67,242

    Mr. B, it's quite difficult, well, for me at least, to see how monopolies-type legislation can be applied to the internet. With physical shops you can have a ceiling for a sector (say, 25-35% of supermarkets belonging to one chain) but the ephemeral nature of the internet makes that rather tricky.

    On Hamilton: lots of drivers want to drive for Ferrari just because of the history. I'd still be surprised if Vettel gave Hamilton the nod.

    Can't believe either whatever Hamilton says in public that he would actually accept that situation in reality. He's an egotist and a prima donna. No way will he accept being second fiddle again. Look how sour he was with Rosberg and Alonso, and neither of them were as good as Vettel is.

    In justice to him as a multiple world champion and the second most successful driver of all time there seems no reason why he should accept such a position.
  • Options
    OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 31,990
    edited May 2018
    ydoethur said:

    Replacing Theresa May would not need a confidence vote: just for the men in grey suits to hand her the metaphorical glass of whisky and pearl-handled revolver.

    ETA: this seems more likely than yet another election being called by the current or new prime minister.

    I suspect that if Mrs M, or the Tories were to call another election it wouldn’t be necessary for Labour to campaign energetically. The public, even that part of it which believes the Daily Mail, would be incensed at the prospect of more public politicking and would come down like a ton of bricks on those percieved to have brought it about.
    It would be 1997 all over again.
    More like 1974 'Who govern's Britain?' Well, since you ask......
    While that didn’t work out well for the Tories (!) it didn’t lead to a particularly stable Government either. I rather agree with Dr Ydoethur that a Corbyn led government wouldn’t be that stable either. He’s no Harold Wilson.

    (Dr Ydoethur: Suspect tautology!)
    Dr the Doctor is indeed a tautology...
    Sadly, although my father could (just about) speak Welsh, and both my grandparents could, although only my grandmother did, and of course further back....... my knowledge of the hen iaith is very limited
  • Options
    not_on_firenot_on_fire Posts: 4,341

    Some Tory MPs have lost the plot entirely.

    https://twitter.com/dkshrewsbury/status/999668615585595392?s=21

    What is it about the Second World War that attracts Conservative Leavers like moths to a flame?
    The Battle of Britain was really all about not joining the Nazi Customs Union
  • Options
    ydoethurydoethur Posts: 67,242

    ydoethur said:

    Replacing Theresa May would not need a confidence vote: just for the men in grey suits to hand her the metaphorical glass of whisky and pearl-handled revolver.

    ETA: this seems more likely than yet another election being called by the current or new prime minister.

    I suspect that if Mrs M, or the Tories were to call another election it wouldn’t be necessary for Labour to campaign energetically. The public, even that part of it which believes the Daily Mail, would be incensed at the prospect of more public politicking and would come down like a ton of bricks on those percieved to have brought it about.
    It would be 1997 all over again.
    More like 1974 'Who govern's Britain?' Well, since you ask......
    While that didn’t work out well for the Tories (!) it didn’t lead to a particularly stable Government either. I rather agree with Dr Ydoethur that a Corbyn led government wouldn’t be that stable either. He’s no Harold Wilson.

    (Dr Ydoethur: Suspect tautology!)
    Dr the Doctor is indeed a tautology...
    Sadly, although my father could (just about) Welsh, both my grandparents could, although only my grandmother did, and of course further back....... my knowledge of the hen iaith is very limited
    'Y' (pronounced uh) is 'the' (when not before or after a vowel).

    'Doethur' (DOY-theer) is 'Doctor'.

    So technically my username is spelled Y Doethur.
  • Options
    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 117,007

    HYUFD said:

    Agreed, if Brexiteer Tory MPs trigger an early general election they may end up with the Remainer dominated, pro soft Brexit LDs holding the balance of power in the Commons on current polls and not the pro Brexit DUP.

    Although it does seem the public still want tighter immigration controls, a Mori poll for the Telegraph today shows 2/3 of UK voters want a 'hostile environment' for illegal immigrants

    https://mobile.twitter.com/IpsosMORI/status/1000268248473112577

    The problem is they also want a growing economy and a functioning NHS. These two things rather depend on immigration controls of the looser, rather than tighter, variety.
    Polls also show voters are quite happy to have as many skilled migrants as the country needs, it is unskilled immigration and illegal immigration they want to see reduced
  • Options
    Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826
    Scott_P said:

    Constitutionally I think we are in an awful pickle.

    There is the potential for the government to manifestly lose the Confidence of the House in its Brexit policy, but it is very unlikely that it would lose a vote on a formal vote of No Confidence as David explains.

    [SNIP]

    The Fixed Term Parliaments Act needs to go and we need to fix this flaw in the Constitution.

    This is not a flaw in the constitution. The flaw is Brexit.

    There is no version of Brexit that commands a majority in the House or the Country.

    Anyone who says "will of the people" or "they know what they voted for" is a charlatan.

    When even the architects are going public with their concerns about how Brexit will actually turn out, the 52% can no longer be assumed to be in favour...
    There's never a majority for any complicated multi-faceted issue. No party has won a majority of the vote in any election since 1931.

    We go ahead with that which honours a plurality instead.
  • Options
    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 117,007
    Not while Arlene Foster remains in charge, she takes a rather different view to Leo Varadkar on these things
  • Options
    Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826
    Fantastic news, welcome to the late 20th century Ireland.
  • Options
    TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 40,109

    Some Tory MPs have lost the plot entirely.

    https://twitter.com/dkshrewsbury/status/999668615585595392?s=21

    What is it about the Second World War that attracts Conservative Leavers like moths to a flame?
    The Battle of Britain was really all about not joining the Nazi Customs Union
    Though a significant number of Tories might have been persuaded by 'a' Nazi customs union.
  • Options
    SandpitSandpit Posts: 49,897

    F1: Leclerc and Vettel reportedly got along very well in the press conference.

    That, couple with Leclerc performing well (and being lauded by Hamilton/Vettel), *and* being a young Ferrari driver means you should keep your eyes peeled for a market on him replacing Raikkonen. I'd be somewhat surprised if it didn't happen.

    Morning. I think Lecerc will be Raikkonen’s replacement, but more likely to be in 2020 than 2019. Ferrari will want to see more evidence of his F1 abilities, they’re not a team who ever take a risk on a driver - even one who lit up F2 last year more than any driver since Hamilton a decade ago.
  • Options
    Sean_FSean_F Posts: 35,850

    I don't see where the votes would come from to pass a vote of No Confidence in either the government or May.
  • Options
    kle4kle4 Posts: 91,750
    I thought this was going to be 'on another planet...the LDs still can't consistently get to 10%'

    Buy I totally agree with the header . There is no reason to believe an election will resolve matters. It is true a majority, for anyone, would make it a little easier, and despite polling a campaign might lead to that, but all sides are chaotic right now, the public are divided, the last election only made things more complicated, and the idea in particular the tories could pull together for a snap election is laughable.
    ydoethur said:

    Mr. B, it's quite difficult, well, for me at least, to see how monopolies-type legislation can be applied to the internet. With physical shops you can have a ceiling for a sector (say, 25-35% of supermarkets belonging to one chain) but the ephemeral nature of the internet makes that rather tricky.

    On Hamilton: lots of drivers want to drive for Ferrari just because of the history. I'd still be surprised if Vettel gave Hamilton the nod.

    Can't believe either whatever Hamilton says in public that he would actually accept that situation in reality. He's an egotist and a prima donna. No way will he accept being second fiddle again. Look how sour he was with Rosberg and Alonso, and neither of them were as good as Vettel is.

    In justice to him as a multiple world champion and the second most successful driver of all time there seems no reason why he should accept such a position.
    Agreed on both counts.
  • Options
    SandpitSandpit Posts: 49,897
    Hopefully a good day for Liverpool coming up, and what’s looking from the exit polls like a sad day for Ireland
  • Options
    AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 23,754

    Fantastic news, welcome to the late 20th century Ireland.
    in modernisation Ireland is losing its distinctive quirkiness and becoming a n other small European country

    Belgium without mayonnaise.
  • Options
    kle4kle4 Posts: 91,750

    Some Tory MPs have lost the plot entirely.

    https://twitter.com/dkshrewsbury/status/999668615585595392?s=21

    Bit late to be challenging anything ain't it?
  • Options
    AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 23,754
    HYUFD said:

    Not while Arlene Foster remains in charge, she takes a rather different view to Leo Varadkar on these things
    it's quite funny that the DUP is the last line of defence for the Catholic church
  • Options
    Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826

    Fantastic news, welcome to the late 20th century Ireland.
    in modernisation Ireland is losing its distinctive quirkiness and becoming a n other small European country

    Belgium without mayonnaise.
    Ireland's quirkiness in the past has been a mixed bag.

    They can keep Guinness and Leprechauns without Misogyny and Terrorism.
  • Options
    AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 23,754

    Fantastic news, welcome to the late 20th century Ireland.
    in modernisation Ireland is losing its distinctive quirkiness and becoming a n other small European country

    Belgium without mayonnaise.
    Ireland's quirkiness in the past has been a mixed bag.

    They can keep Guinness and Leprechauns without Misogyny and Terrorism.
    if you ever had an Irish mother you'd know how daft the misogyny claim is
  • Options
    PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 75,929
    This might sound very cynical but Ireland's vote is an excellent result for our sparse NHS resources. I think.
  • Options
    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 117,007
    edited May 2018

    HYUFD said:

    Not while Arlene Foster remains in charge, she takes a rather different view to Leo Varadkar on these things
    it's quite funny that the DUP is the last line of defence for the Catholic church
    Especially as most of Sinn Fein are now pro choice and pro gay marriage despite the professed Catholicism of Martin McGuinness and Gerry Adams.

    Indeed the DUP is now closer to Poland's governing socially conservative Law and Justice Party than any of the main parties elsewhere in the UK and in the Republic of Ireland.

    Poland of course is now the only European country along with Northern Ireland where abortion is still illegal and one of the few European countries along with Northern Ireland and Italy and Switzerland and a few other Eastern European nations that have not yet legalised gay marriage
  • Options
    Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826

    Fantastic news, welcome to the late 20th century Ireland.
    in modernisation Ireland is losing its distinctive quirkiness and becoming a n other small European country

    Belgium without mayonnaise.
    Ireland's quirkiness in the past has been a mixed bag.

    They can keep Guinness and Leprechauns without Misogyny and Terrorism.
    if you ever had an Irish mother you'd know how daft the misogyny claim is
    So long as your Irish mother wanted to be a mother. Otherwise the men of the cloth knew best for her.
  • Options
    kle4kle4 Posts: 91,750
    ydoethur said:

    Replacing Theresa May would not need a confidence vote: just for the men in grey suits to hand her the metaphorical glass of whisky and pearl-handled revolver.

    ETA: this seems more likely than yet another election being called by the current or new prime minister.

    I suspect that if Mrs M, or the Tories were to call another election it wouldn’t be necessary for Labour to campaign energetically. The public, even that part of it which believes the Daily Mail, would be incensed at the prospect of more public politicking and would come down like a ton of bricks on those percieved to have brought it about.
    It would be 1997 all over again.
    I don't think it would be that bad given Labour's weakness and disarray, but I would still expect Labour to emerge as the largest party.

    However since Corbyn would last all of three months before another election - as he has neither political sense nor any workable policies - you wonder if he might subsequently get punished as well.
    I'm sure he would, if not quite so quickly, but it's not really the time for such delay on top of existing dithering. If it is a distraction technique it's pretty silly.

    In Fairness the only way I see an approach which gets through the Commons easily is if labour agree to it, and they keep shifting the goalposts and the tories aren't inclined to do so, so a path forward is tricky. I don't think it as certain as he believes but William might end up bring right at this rate about it all not happening, not due to a plan, but just failure to agree on an approach.
  • Options
    PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 75,929
    David Herdson: On another planet
    BBC: Virgin boss Sir Richard Branson readies himself for space
  • Options
    OblitusSumMeOblitusSumMe Posts: 9,143
    Scott_P said:

    Constitutionally I think we are in an awful pickle.

    There is the potential for the government to manifestly lose the Confidence of the House in its Brexit policy, but it is very unlikely that it would lose a vote on a formal vote of No Confidence as David explains.

    [SNIP]

    The Fixed Term Parliaments Act needs to go and we need to fix this flaw in the Constitution.

    This is not a flaw in the constitution. The flaw is Brexit.

    There is no version of Brexit that commands a majority in the House or the Country.

    Anyone who says "will of the people" or "they know what they voted for" is a charlatan.

    When even the architects are going public with their concerns about how Brexit will actually turn out, the 52% can no longer be assumed to be in favour...
    The issue this year/decade is Brexit, but in principle the same scenario could play out with any other issue.
  • Options
    AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 23,754
    Pulpstar said:

    This might sound very cynical but Ireland's vote is an excellent result for our sparse NHS resources. I think.

    I doubt it will affect it much, at best it will stop 3000 terminations, that's about a weeks output for England's abortion industry
  • Options
    PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 75,929

    Pulpstar said:

    This might sound very cynical but Ireland's vote is an excellent result for our sparse NHS resources. I think.

    I doubt it will affect it much, at best it will stop 3000 terminations, that's about a weeks output for England's abortion industry
    I normally make this point to those on the left, but pennies and pounds Mr Brooke...
  • Options
    AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 23,754

    Fantastic news, welcome to the late 20th century Ireland.
    in modernisation Ireland is losing its distinctive quirkiness and becoming a n other small European country

    Belgium without mayonnaise.
    Ireland's quirkiness in the past has been a mixed bag.

    They can keep Guinness and Leprechauns without Misogyny and Terrorism.
    if you ever had an Irish mother you'd know how daft the misogyny claim is
    So long as your Irish mother wanted to be a mother. Otherwise the men of the cloth knew best for her.
    err a lot of proddy priests up north are women
  • Options
    Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 60,983
    Mr. Doethur, I think people underestimate how clever and skilful Hamilton is at playing the media/PR game.

    Mr. Sandpit, that's possible. However, Raikkonen's had a couple of one year extensions and there's a chance he might walk even if they don't renew it again. Plus, they need a replacement sooner or later.
  • Options
    Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826

    Pulpstar said:

    This might sound very cynical but Ireland's vote is an excellent result for our sparse NHS resources. I think.

    I doubt it will affect it much, at best it will stop 3000 terminations, that's about a weeks output for England's abortion industry
    So 2%? That's higher than I would expect considering that Ireland is only 6.7% of the population in the British Isles.
  • Options
    kle4kle4 Posts: 91,750
    Yet more worrying news re afghan interpreters

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-44251343
  • Options
    Sean_FSean_F Posts: 35,850

    HYUFD said:

    Not while Arlene Foster remains in charge, she takes a rather different view to Leo Varadkar on these things
    it's quite funny that the DUP is the last line of defence for the Catholic church
    It's a remarkable irony.
  • Options
    AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 23,754
    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Not while Arlene Foster remains in charge, she takes a rather different view to Leo Varadkar on these things
    it's quite funny that the DUP is the last line of defence for the Catholic church
    Especially as most of Sinn Fein are now pro choice and pro gay marriage despite the professed Catholicism of Martin McGuinness and Gerry Adams.

    Indeed the DUP is now closer to Poland's governing socially conservative Law and Justice Party than any of the main parties elsewhere in the UK and in the Republic of Ireland.

    Poland of course is now the only European country along with Northern Ireland where abortion is still illegal and one of the few European countries along with Northern Ireland and Italy and Switzerland and a few other Eastern European nations that have not yet legalised gay marriage
    the dynamics of this could be fun

    SF have shifted their position 180 degrees in the last 20 years on social issues

    however since this is a devolved issue they cant do anything until they return to Stormont as its a devolved issue

    they must now be tempted as I reckon repeal will carry up north and would seriously wrongfoot the DUP
  • Options
    Dura_AceDura_Ace Posts: 12,999



    So long as your Irish mother wanted to be a mother. Otherwise the men of the cloth knew best for her.

    My mother left the 26C for that exact reason.
  • Options
    Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826

    Fantastic news, welcome to the late 20th century Ireland.
    in modernisation Ireland is losing its distinctive quirkiness and becoming a n other small European country

    Belgium without mayonnaise.
    Ireland's quirkiness in the past has been a mixed bag.

    They can keep Guinness and Leprechauns without Misogyny and Terrorism.
    if you ever had an Irish mother you'd know how daft the misogyny claim is
    So long as your Irish mother wanted to be a mother. Otherwise the men of the cloth knew best for her.
    err a lot of proddy priests up north are women
    I thought we were talking about the Republic?
  • Options
    kle4kle4 Posts: 91,750

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Not while Arlene Foster remains in charge, she takes a rather different view to Leo Varadkar on these things
    it's quite funny that the DUP is the last line of defence for the Catholic church
    Especially as most of Sinn Fein are now pro choice and pro gay marriage despite the professed Catholicism of Martin McGuinness and Gerry Adams.

    Indeed the DUP is now closer to Poland's governing socially conservative Law and Justice Party than any of the main parties elsewhere in the UK and in the Republic of Ireland.

    Poland of course is now the only European country along with Northern Ireland where abortion is still illegal and one of the few European countries along with Northern Ireland and Italy and Switzerland and a few other Eastern European nations that have not yet legalised gay marriage
    the dynamics of this could be fun

    SF have shifted their position 180 degrees in the last 20 years on social issues

    however since this is a devolved issue they cant do anything until they return to Stormont as its a devolved issue

    they must now be tempted as I reckon repeal will carry up north and would seriously wrongfoot the DUP
    Is there any sign either side even wants to return to Stormont? Seems practically like SF are playing a waiting game, and the DUP won't back down on anything. But i don't know the area.
  • Options
    ydoethurydoethur Posts: 67,242
    edited May 2018
    kle4 said:

    I'm sure he would, if not quite so quickly, but it's not really the time for such delay on top of existing dithering. If it is a distraction technique it's pretty silly.

    An election now, for the reasons David states although he doesn't quite push it to the logical conclusion, would lead to no deal and full Brexit.

    Therefore, the subsequent political ramifications would be more interesting.

    The economic ones would of course be disastrous. And wouldn't it be the crowning irony if Corbyn, the man who has repeatedly talked about his insane desire to ape that crook Chavez who literally beggared the wealthiest country in Latin America, got the blame for an economic disaster of the Tories' making?
  • Options
    CD13CD13 Posts: 6,351
    Mr Thompson,

    The Brexit situation is akin to a General Election in which one party, let's say the LDs, achieved an overall majority but the media/elite/the chattering classes refused to accept it. "They don't understand what they voted for, the manifesto was unclear, they're racist/misogynist/thick."

    So they start off with legal challenges but lose them, then it's they cheated, they lied or there was foreign intervention. They refuse to engage and try to delay as much as they can, all the time demanding a recount.

    If after two or three years of little progress they succeeded in engineering another general election, do you think the voters would accept this? Even many of those voters who wanted a Tory or Labour government.

    It's all over, Remainers, you have nowhere to go. What are you pinning your hopes on, now that the tide of history is sweeping away your sandcastles of anger and despair?

    There won't be another referendum, it would be the kiss of death to democracy, and most Remainers accept this.

    As a Leave supporter, I say this in sorrow - not in anger.
  • Options
    BillRoyBillRoy Posts: 7
    I disagree that another General Election will not bring a Conservative majority.

    In the 2017 General Election the Conservatives were massively ahead in the opinion polls and looking very likely to get circa 400 seats - and then Theresa May started making her 'staged appearances' and every time she opened her mouth you could feel the support ebbing away. The campaign from the start was poorly organised, poorly led, and indeed if ever anyone wanted to know how to lose an election they should examine May and the Conservative campaign of 2017.

    With a new leader the Conservatives could easily win a clear majority at the next General Election as long the new leader is a true Brexit supporter and has the ability to communicate with the electorate. These conditions narrows down the field greatly, although the second condition could be somewhat reduced in importance if the new Conservative leader had a team of such who could do it for them, though this would be risky.

    The new leader should concentrate first on the EU referendum, tie in the Conservative vote, then explain how Labour's policies would turn the UK into a Nicaragua+++. The electorate are neither dumb nor stupid, when they hear such common sense and evident truths the 'swing voters' will overwhelmingly go Conservative.

    But as said above it requires a new leader, someone who will expel from the Conservative Party those who vote against the very major promises made in the manifesto - and thereby give the electorate a belief that what is promised in the manifesto will be adhered to.
  • Options
    DecrepitJohnLDecrepitJohnL Posts: 13,300

    Some Tory MPs have lost the plot entirely.

    https://twitter.com/dkshrewsbury/status/999668615585595392?s=21

    It is bonkers.

    But having said that, was it not reported that Germany could have wiped out Greek debt for less than the war reparations (possibly indexed) that the Greeks had waived?

    Though I doubt this MP has totted up how much we might need to pay to various former colonies if his passion for compensation catches on.
  • Options
    edmundintokyoedmundintokyo Posts: 17,150
    edited May 2018
    Excellent piece.

    I'm not saying these people are making any sense, but for the sake of argument let's pretend they have a rational strategy, and try to work out what it is.

    Where you sit decides where you stand, so leavers generally represent places with strong UKIPpery.

    Currently the government is heading for either a car-crash brexit that will bollocks up the economy or, from the point of view of the tabloids and the kipper-curious, a traitrous betrayal. Long-term these are both horrible for the Conservative Party, especially if you're defending against a kipperesque challenger.

    A new election hopefully puts Jeremy Corbyn in charge of the final deal and the resulting goat rodeo, and failing that Tory MPs get an extra year. Seems like a win either way, no?
  • Options
    kle4kle4 Posts: 91,750
    edited May 2018

    Some Tory MPs have lost the plot entirely.

    https://twitter.com/dkshrewsbury/status/999668615585595392?s=21

    It is bonkers.

    But having said that, was it not reported that Germany could have wiped out Greek debt for less than the war reparations (possibly indexed) that the Greeks had waived?

    Though I doubt this MP has totted up how much we might need to pay to various former colonies if his passion for compensation catches on.
    No kidding, there's the 777 trillion the West woukd owe over slavery for a start. At least, that's what someone asked for. Appatently you can put a number value on a human life.

    http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/africa/424984.stm
  • Options
    malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 41,974

    Well, quite. It's a deluded position.

    FPT: Incidentally, BBC News at Ten had a segment on Scotland possibly using the pound without a currency union. Good subject, except Sarah Smith failed to point out the glaring problems with such an approach (she did, I think, say there's be no central bank etc, but failed to elaborate about the significant consequences for the financial services sector). Morris Dancer was not impressed.

    MD, it was a sensible short term suggestion which has been successfully used on many occasions. I assume you dropped out on Economics for history.
  • Options
    CD13CD13 Posts: 6,351
    A genuine question …

    Assuming a Yes vote in the Republic, what is the time limit on abortions likely to be?
  • Options
    DecrepitJohnLDecrepitJohnL Posts: 13,300
    BillRoy said:

    I disagree that another General Election will not bring a Conservative majority.

    In the 2017 General Election the Conservatives were massively ahead in the opinion polls and looking very likely to get circa 400 seats - and then Theresa May started making her 'staged appearances' and every time she opened her mouth you could feel the support ebbing away. The campaign from the start was poorly organised, poorly led, and indeed if ever anyone wanted to know how to lose an election they should examine May and the Conservative campaign of 2017.

    With a new leader the Conservatives could easily win a clear majority at the next General Election as long the new leader is a true Brexit supporter and has the ability to communicate with the electorate. These conditions narrows down the field greatly, although the second condition could be somewhat reduced in importance if the new Conservative leader had a team of such who could do it for them, though this would be risky.

    The new leader should concentrate first on the EU referendum, tie in the Conservative vote, then explain how Labour's policies would turn the UK into a Nicaragua+++. The electorate are neither dumb nor stupid, when they hear such common sense and evident truths the 'swing voters' will overwhelmingly go Conservative.

    But as said above it requires a new leader, someone who will expel from the Conservative Party those who vote against the very major promises made in the manifesto - and thereby give the electorate a belief that what is promised in the manifesto will be adhered to.

    If the next Tory Prime Minister starts expelling Conservative MPs, then it won't really matter that they've won the election.

    And if you want to run the election on Brexit, then simply holding another referendum will be safer than alienating all Remain-supporting Conservative supporters.

    But good luck with the Venezuela attacks that failed so dismally last year.

  • Options
    NigelbNigelb Posts: 62,613
    ydoethur said:

    Mr. B, it's quite difficult, well, for me at least, to see how monopolies-type legislation can be applied to the internet. With physical shops you can have a ceiling for a sector (say, 25-35% of supermarkets belonging to one chain) but the ephemeral nature of the internet makes that rather tricky.

    On Hamilton: lots of drivers want to drive for Ferrari just because of the history. I'd still be surprised if Vettel gave Hamilton the nod.

    Can't believe either whatever Hamilton says in public that he would actually accept that situation in reality. He's an egotist and a prima donna. No way will he accept being second fiddle again. Look how sour he was with Rosberg and Alonso, and neither of them were as good as Vettel is.

    In justice to him as a multiple world champion and the second most successful driver of all time there seems no reason why he should accept such a position.
    The challenge of taking on a four time world champion in equal machinery.
    Of course he’s an egotist - almost all F1 drivers are (with the exception of the great Jim Clark) - but that’s all the more reason to take on the challenge.

    Neither he nor Vettel are at their best when getting beaten, so it would be an interesting test for the team manager....
  • Options
    kle4kle4 Posts: 91,750

    Excellent piece.

    I'm not saying these people are making any sense, but for the sake of argument let's pretend they have a rational strategy, and try to work out what it is.

    Where you sit decides where you stand, so leavers generally represent places with strong UKIPpery.

    Currently the government is heading for either a car-crash brexit that will bollocks up the economy or, from the point of view of the tabloids and the kipper-curious, a traitrous betrayal. Long-term these are both horrible for the Conservative Party, especially if you're defending against a kipperesque challenger.

    A new election hopefully puts Jeremy Corbyn in charge of the final deal and the resulting goat rodeo, and failing that Tory MPs get an extra year. Seems like a win either way, no?

    Damn risky. And I'd doubt they have the wherewithal to craft such a strategy.
  • Options
    Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 60,983
    Mr. G, you don't believe Scotland using the pound (should an independence referendum result in the UK splitting) without a currency union would damage the financial sector?
  • Options
    NigelbNigelb Posts: 62,613
    CD13 said:

    Mr Thompson,

    The Brexit situation is akin to a General Election in which one party, let's say the LDs, achieved an overall majority but the media/elite/the chattering classes refused to accept it. "They don't understand what they voted for, the manifesto was unclear, they're racist/misogynist/thick."

    So they start off with legal challenges but lose them, then it's they cheated, they lied or there was foreign intervention. They refuse to engage and try to delay as much as they can, all the time demanding a recount.

    If after two or three years of little progress they succeeded in engineering another general election, do you think the voters would accept this? Even many of those voters who wanted a Tory or Labour government.

    It's all over, Remainers, you have nowhere to go. What are you pinning your hopes on, now that the tide of history is sweeping away your sandcastles of anger and despair?

    There won't be another referendum, it would be the kiss of death to democracy, and most Remainers accept this.

    As a Leave supporter, I say this in sorrow - not in anger.

    No, it’s pretty well analogous to a party achieving said majority in Parliament, and then complaining that the opposition opposes them...
  • Options
    ydoethurydoethur Posts: 67,242
    CD13 said:

    A genuine question …

    Assuming a Yes vote in the Republic, what is the time limit on abortions likely to be?

    https://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/what-would-replace-the-eighth-amendment-the-text-the-law-the-politics-1.3505902
  • Options
    IanB2IanB2 Posts: 47,282
    Nevertheless some Tories do seem to be considering the second Thursday in October. Madness I agree.
  • Options
    malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 41,974

    Mr. G, you don't believe Scotland using the pound (should an independence referendum result in the UK splitting) without a currency union would damage the financial sector?

    no problem with it as a short term thing MD, makes great sense given it would take years to unravel everything.
  • Options
    NigelbNigelb Posts: 62,613
    kle4 said:

    Some Tory MPs have lost the plot entirely.

    https://twitter.com/dkshrewsbury/status/999668615585595392?s=21

    It is bonkers.

    But having said that, was it not reported that Germany could have wiped out Greek debt for less than the war reparations (possibly indexed) that the Greeks had waived?

    Though I doubt this MP has totted up how much we might need to pay to various former colonies if his passion for compensation catches on.
    No kidding, there's the 777 trillion the West woukd owe over slavery for a start. At least, that's what someone asked for. Appatently you can put a number value on a human life...
    Well the insurance industry does so regularly, and does the National Institute for Health and Care Excellence....
  • Options
    Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 60,983
    Mr. G, but the financial sector can't just live in stasis for an unspecified number of years. Do you not think that using the pound without a currency union would have a significantly detrimental effect upon the Scottish financial sector?
  • Options
    Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 60,983
    Mr. kle4, been done in the past, with wergild and sarhaed.
  • Options
    kle4kle4 Posts: 91,750
    Nigelb said:

    kle4 said:

    Some Tory MPs have lost the plot entirely.

    https://twitter.com/dkshrewsbury/status/999668615585595392?s=21

    It is bonkers.

    But having said that, was it not reported that Germany could have wiped out Greek debt for less than the war reparations (possibly indexed) that the Greeks had waived?

    Though I doubt this MP has totted up how much we might need to pay to various former colonies if his passion for compensation catches on.
    No kidding, there's the 777 trillion the West woukd owe over slavery for a start. At least, that's what someone asked for. Appatently you can put a number value on a human life...
    Well the insurance industry does so regularly, and does the National Institute for Health and Care Excellence....
    I know, it was a just a joke.
  • Options
    NigelbNigelb Posts: 62,613
    malcolmg said:

    Mr. G, you don't believe Scotland using the pound (should an independence referendum result in the UK splitting) without a currency union would damage the financial sector?

    no problem with it as a short term thing MD, makes great sense given it would take years to unravel everything.
    The financial sector would be rather more alarmed at plans not to take such a gradualist approach, i suspect.
    First you have to win your referendum, though.
  • Options
    OllyTOllyT Posts: 4,913
    edited May 2018
    CD13 said:

    Mr Thompson,

    The Brexit situation is akin to a General Election in which one party, let's say the LDs, achieved an overall majority but the media/elite/the chattering classes refused to accept it. "They don't understand what they voted for, the manifesto was unclear, they're racist/misogynist/thick."

    So they start off with legal challenges but lose them, then it's they cheated, they lied or there was foreign intervention. They refuse to engage and try to delay as much as they can, all the time demanding a recount.

    If after two or three years of little progress they succeeded in engineering another general election, do you think the voters would accept this? Even many of those voters who wanted a Tory or Labour government.

    It's all over, Remainers, you have nowhere to go. What are you pinning your hopes on, now that the tide of history is sweeping away your sandcastles of anger and despair?

    There won't be another referendum, it would be the kiss of death to democracy, and most Remainers accept this.

    As a Leave supporter, I say this in sorrow - not in anger.

    That argument would have some validity if Brexit was being prevented from happening, it isn't, we are leaving, we are simply arguing over how we should do it.

    I understand that some Leavers erroneously believe that we voted for things other than simply leaving the EU. We didn't, there was only one thing on the ballot paper.

  • Options
    CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,205
    kle4 said:

    Some Tory MPs have lost the plot entirely.

    https://twitter.com/dkshrewsbury/status/999668615585595392?s=21

    It is bonkers.

    But having said that, was it not reported that Germany could have wiped out Greek debt for less than the war reparations (possibly indexed) that the Greeks had waived?

    Though I doubt this MP has totted up how much we might need to pay to various former colonies if his passion for compensation catches on.
    No kidding, there's the 777 trillion the West woukd owe over slavery for a start. At least, that's what someone asked for. Appatently you can put a number value on a human life.

    http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/africa/424984.stm
    Presumably the West could pass the claim on to the Arab and African states which caught the slaves and sold them in the first place. Plus it would also have claims for all the Westerners captured by Arabs and forced into slavery and servitude.
  • Options
    ydoethurydoethur Posts: 67,242
    edited May 2018
    Nigelb said:

    CD13 said:

    Mr Thompson,

    The Brexit situation is akin to a General Election in which one party, let's say the LDs, achieved an overall majority but the media/elite/the chattering classes refused to accept it. "They don't understand what they voted for, the manifesto was unclear, they're racist/misogynist/thick."

    So they start off with legal challenges but lose them, then it's they cheated, they lied or there was foreign intervention. They refuse to engage and try to delay as much as they can, all the time demanding a recount.

    If after two or three years of little progress they succeeded in engineering another general election, do you think the voters would accept this? Even many of those voters who wanted a Tory or Labour government.

    It's all over, Remainers, you have nowhere to go. What are you pinning your hopes on, now that the tide of history is sweeping away your sandcastles of anger and despair?

    There won't be another referendum, it would be the kiss of death to democracy, and most Remainers accept this.

    As a Leave supporter, I say this in sorrow - not in anger.

    No, it’s pretty well analogous to a party achieving said majority in Parliament, and then complaining that the opposition opposes them...
    In fairness of course, most parties do complain when the Opposition opposes them. New Labour were particularly self-righteous in that regard but Thatcher definitely had her moments.
  • Options
    NigelbNigelb Posts: 62,613
    ydoethur said:

    Nigelb said:

    CD13 said:

    Mr Thompson,

    The Brexit situation is akin to a General Election in which one party, let's say the LDs, achieved an overall majority but the media/elite/the chattering classes refused to accept it. "They don't understand what they voted for, the manifesto was unclear, they're racist/misogynist/thick."

    So they start off with legal challenges but lose them, then it's they cheated, they lied or there was foreign intervention. They refuse to engage and try to delay as much as they can, all the time demanding a recount.

    If after two or three years of little progress they succeeded in engineering another general election, do you think the voters would accept this? Even many of those voters who wanted a Tory or Labour government.

    It's all over, Remainers, you have nowhere to go. What are you pinning your hopes on, now that the tide of history is sweeping away your sandcastles of anger and despair?

    There won't be another referendum, it would be the kiss of death to democracy, and most Remainers accept this.

    As a Leave supporter, I say this in sorrow - not in anger.

    No, it’s pretty well analogous to a party achieving said majority in Parliament, and then complaining that the opposition opposes them...
    In fairness of course, most parties do complain when the Opposition opposes them. New Labour were particularly self-righteous in that regard but Thatcher definitely had her moments.
    That’s true, of course, but I think ‘particularly self-righteous’ makes the point.

  • Options
    BarnesianBarnesian Posts: 7,989
    BillRoy said:

    I disagree that another General Election will not bring a Conservative majority.

    In the 2017 General Election the Conservatives were massively ahead in the opinion polls and looking very likely to get circa 400 seats - and then Theresa May started making her 'staged appearances' and every time she opened her mouth you could feel the support ebbing away. The campaign from the start was poorly organised, poorly led, and indeed if ever anyone wanted to know how to lose an election they should examine May and the Conservative campaign of 2017.

    With a new leader the Conservatives could easily win a clear majority at the next General Election as long the new leader is a true Brexit supporter and has the ability to communicate with the electorate. These conditions narrows down the field greatly, although the second condition could be somewhat reduced in importance if the new Conservative leader had a team of such who could do it for them, though this would be risky.

    The new leader should concentrate first on the EU referendum, tie in the Conservative vote, then explain how Labour's policies would turn the UK into a Nicaragua+++. The electorate are neither dumb nor stupid, when they hear such common sense and evident truths the 'swing voters' will overwhelmingly go Conservative.

    But as said above it requires a new leader, someone who will expel from the Conservative Party those who vote against the very major promises made in the manifesto - and thereby give the electorate a belief that what is promised in the manifesto will be adhered to.

    In your dreams!
  • Options
    Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 60,983
    Miss Cyclefree, it is wryly ridiculous that so many bleat about the West and slavery yet neglect Arab slavery, or the Africans selling other Africans in the first place. For some, it does seem to be about skin colour.

    I've never understood the tremendously guilty whites who feel bad about slavery. It ended centuries before they were born. People who were never slaves blaming people who never owned or trade slaves for slavery centuries ago just seems nuts to me.
  • Options
    Dura_AceDura_Ace Posts: 12,999

    Mr. G, you don't believe Scotland using the pound (should an independence referendum result in the UK splitting) without a currency union would damage the financial sector?

    They could do a Luxembourg. They had their own central bank and the franc which was exactly equal to one Belgian franc and both were accepted in both countries. Except Belgian shopkeepers often told my mother désolé when she presented a Luxembourgois note.
This discussion has been closed.