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politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » A very British coup. A way back for the defeated centre?

SystemSystem Posts: 11,006
edited May 2018 in General

imagepoliticalbetting.com » Blog Archive » A very British coup. A way back for the defeated centre?

These have been dark times for pragmatic politicians. Both the Conservative party and the Labour party have been taken over by politicians pursuing projects for ideological reasons, uninterested in any evidence as to whether those projects were actually beneficial for the nation. In both parties, moderates have been marginalised as the extremists compete to apply purity tests for their projects.

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    CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 59,573
    First! Like Mrs May.....
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    CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 59,573
    That preponderance of moderates in a hung Parliament have their opportunity to take back control from the government.

    And do what?
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    RobDRobD Posts: 58,961
    Thanks for the thread, Alastair!
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    Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 60,969
    Good morning, everyone.

    [Well, to a limited extent. Got up early due to a coughing fit and just vomited somewhat. Not terrible but it is irksome].

    An interesting perspective. Although it's happened before, it's unlikely the numbers will stack up quite so conveniently.

    Incidentally, I find I much prefer the BBC News at 5am.
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    felixfelix Posts: 15,124
    An interesting thread. From my perspective that might produce the soft Brexit which would be the most accurate reflection of the referendum result. However I wonder if it would be a true long-term realignment with a new centrist party emerging and enduring.
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    Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 60,969
    As a sleepy side, the news did cover white farms in South Africa having parts claimed by blacks. The segment did raise the possibility of a Zimbabwe-style situation recurring (although they asked a black farmer about this, which is a bit like asking Captain Chubbychops if cake is a good thing), but it was bizarre that they didn't mention the serious violence being committed against white farmers.

    It does seem the ANC is going to put through legislation to confiscate white farmland.
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    tlg86tlg86 Posts: 25,187
    Thank you Alastair. I would disagree with the following:

    May and Hammond are not ideologues.

    I'm not sure moderate Labour MPs are opposed to Corbyn. What they were worried about was getting thumped at an election.

    In the scenario you set out, I think we'd have another election. Jezza would not be standing aside to placate the Lib Dems, that I am certain of.
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    philiphphiliph Posts: 4,704
    Hmmm

    Party on 7% dictates terms and leader to a party on 40%. Minority ideologues taking control seems an apt description.
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    logical_songlogical_song Posts: 9,703
    tlg86 said:

    Thank you Alastair. I would disagree with the following:

    May and Hammond are not ideologues.

    I'm not sure moderate Labour MPs are opposed to Corbyn. What they were worried about was getting thumped at an election.

    In the scenario you set out, I think we'd have another election. Jezza would not be standing aside to placate the Lib Dems, that I am certain of.

    May is in thrall to the Tory ideologues, they could bring her down at any moment.
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    SandpitSandpit Posts: 49,842
    Wakes up this morning to find the local radio station here interviewing Liam Fox, who it turns out is in the Middle East this week promoting “bilateral trade and investment in a post-Brexit environment”. I guess at least he’s doing something for all his air miles.
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    ThomasNasheThomasNashe Posts: 4,964
    philiph said:

    Hmmm

    Party on 7% dictates terms and leader to a party on 40%. Minority ideologues taking control seems an apt description.

    We currently have a party on about .5% dictating terms to the Government. If you don't like it, start campaigning for PR.
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    SandpitSandpit Posts: 49,842
    edited May 2018

    tlg86 said:

    Thank you Alastair. I would disagree with the following:

    May and Hammond are not ideologues.

    I'm not sure moderate Labour MPs are opposed to Corbyn. What they were worried about was getting thumped at an election.

    In the scenario you set out, I think we'd have another election. Jezza would not be standing aside to placate the Lib Dems, that I am certain of.

    May is in thrall to the Tory ideologues, they could bring her down at any moment.
    Indeed. Poor form from Nicky Morgan and Anna Soubry to be proposing amendments that directly contradict the manifesto they were elected on less than a year ago.
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    Dura_AceDura_Ace Posts: 12,981
    Sandpit said:

    Wakes up this morning to find the local radio station here interviewing Liam Fox, who it turns out is in the Middle East this week promoting “bilateral trade and investment in a post-Brexit environment”. I guess at least he’s doing something for all his air miles.

    Any sign of AW or he safely quartered back at the Deira Sheraton?
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    philiphphiliph Posts: 4,704

    philiph said:

    Hmmm

    Party on 7% dictates terms and leader to a party on 40%. Minority ideologues taking control seems an apt description.

    We currently have a party on about .5% dictating terms to the Government. If you don't like it, start campaigning for PR.
    I'm not sure PR is the solution to minority views taking precedence over majority views. PR may be a force behind minority views taking on additional weight. After all the 0.5% have influence through bargaining representation for policy, the main tenant of PR.

    I'm not sure all minority views are better or worse than majority views.
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    Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 60,969
    edited May 2018
    F1: contemplated an early Raikkonen (11, each way) bet for Canada, but there's rain potentially in the air. Long way off, of course, but that could make some other drivers better value. Rain would probably suit Mercedes.

    Edited extra bit: to clarify, suit Mercedes in that I expect Ferrari to be fastest in the dry. Of the top chaps, Red Bull would be happiest with a soggy weekend.
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    rkrkrkrkrkrk Posts: 7,905
    Lab would presumably also need SNP support which is another push towards no Brexit/soft Brexit. I think the replace Corbyn by the back door scenario is unlikely since he has a band of very supportive MPs who would oppose it, and they will likely outnumber the Lib Dems.
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    DavidLDavidL Posts: 51,125
    edited May 2018
    He makes some sound points but he is ignoring the target2 exposure of the ECB to Italy. It is E450bn and rising. The debt arises because the ECB accepts collateral from Italian banks, typically Italian bonds. The result is, really for the first time, there is now very significant international exposure to the status of Italian bonds. If Italy defaults the ECB has a massive hole in its balance sheet. It is, once again, the old Keynes observation about you having a problem when you owe your bank a small sum and the bank having a problem when you owe them a very large sum. E450bn is large.

    The counterparty to the Italian (and indeed other southern European deficits) on target2 is the massive credits held by Germany in particular. If there is a default they will, at least on paper, suffer a major financial hit.

    This works both ways. By refusing to take any more Italian bonds as collateral the ECB has the power to close the Italian banking system almost overnight since they will lose the ability to draw cash from their lender of last resort. By threatening to default on this debt Italy can scare northern countries rigid. A technocratic government will keep to the straight and narrow. Who knows what a government of populists with a series of unsustainable promises to keep might do.
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    logical_songlogical_song Posts: 9,703
    Sandpit said:

    tlg86 said:

    Thank you Alastair. I would disagree with the following:

    May and Hammond are not ideologues.

    I'm not sure moderate Labour MPs are opposed to Corbyn. What they were worried about was getting thumped at an election.

    In the scenario you set out, I think we'd have another election. Jezza would not be standing aside to placate the Lib Dems, that I am certain of.

    May is in thrall to the Tory ideologues, they could bring her down at any moment.
    Indeed. Poor form from Nicky Morgan and Anna Soubry to be proposing amendments that directly contradict the manifesto they were elected on less than a year ago.
    Nicky Morgan and Anna Soubry are not the danger to May and I bet you know which MPs are.
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    AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 30,340
    rkrkrk said:

    Lab would presumably also need SNP support which is another push towards no Brexit/soft Brexit. I think the replace Corbyn by the back door scenario is unlikely since he has a band of very supportive MPs who would oppose it, and they will likely outnumber the Lib Dems.

    It's not the size of rival groups that matters. It's whether a majority can be constructed.

    NB the SNP might relish the opportunity to make havoc within Labour too.
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    edmundintokyoedmundintokyo Posts: 17,141
    The possibility of doing this seems like a useful negotiating card for the LibDems to have in their back pocket, but if this is before Brexit I'd have thought they'd trade pretty much anything for a re-referendum.

    However, if you've only got 14 seats it's quite unlikely the numbers turn out exactly right for you to be kingmaker.
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    AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 30,340

    The possibility of doing this seems like a useful negotiating card for the LibDems to have in their back pocket, but if this is before Brexit I'd have thought they'd trade pretty much anything for a re-referendum.

    However, if you've only got 14 seats it's quite unlikely the numbers turn out exactly right for you to be kingmaker.

    The Lib Dems are not the only party who could pull this stunt. To be honest, it works better for the SNP, who have a vested interest in chaos at Westminster at all times.
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    rkrkrkrkrkrk Posts: 7,905

    rkrkrk said:

    Lab would presumably also need SNP support which is another push towards no Brexit/soft Brexit. I think the replace Corbyn by the back door scenario is unlikely since he has a band of very supportive MPs who would oppose it, and they will likely outnumber the Lib Dems.

    It's not the size of rival groups that matters. It's whether a majority can be constructed.

    NB the SNP might relish the opportunity to make havoc within Labour too.
    The size of the rival groups is important to getting to that majority surely?

    Why would you expect Corbyn, McDonnell, Abbott et al. to vote for a government where Corbyn is not the head rather than just holding out for another election where they could win a majority?

    And if the Corbyn supportive MPs are against it - then to get to a majority you'd need another 20-30 MPs. Seems very unlikely you'd get that from the Tories...
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    DavidLDavidL Posts: 51,125
    This page contains a table of the target2 balances to March: http://sdw.ecb.europa.eu/reports.do?node=1000004859

    The Italians have a deficit of 442bn. The Germans a surplus of 923bn. Spain has a deficit of 381bn. The Netherlands a surplus of 112bn. These kinds of balances have really only developed since 2008. Before that the balances at the ECB for everyone were very small. This is how the ECB has kept the yields of Euro denominated debt low, even of countries with excess debt like Italy. It has kept the show on the road but is it really sustainable? That is the key to what happens next.
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    JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 38,890
    Sandpit said:

    tlg86 said:

    Thank you Alastair. I would disagree with the following:

    May and Hammond are not ideologues.

    I'm not sure moderate Labour MPs are opposed to Corbyn. What they were worried about was getting thumped at an election.

    In the scenario you set out, I think we'd have another election. Jezza would not be standing aside to placate the Lib Dems, that I am certain of.

    May is in thrall to the Tory ideologues, they could bring her down at any moment.
    Indeed. Poor form from Nicky Morgan and Anna Soubry to be proposing amendments that directly contradict the manifesto they were elected on less than a year ago.
    They're just following the long and noble tradition of Conservative Europhobes ...
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    Dura_AceDura_Ace Posts: 12,981
    Here's one those Brexit bonuses:

    https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/brexit-latest-uk-citizenship-eu-nationality-foreign-nationals-passport-countries-a8369706.html

    The cheeky sods are rinsing those that choose the renounce their British citizenship for an extra 50 quid.
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    AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 30,340
    rkrkrk said:

    rkrkrk said:

    Lab would presumably also need SNP support which is another push towards no Brexit/soft Brexit. I think the replace Corbyn by the back door scenario is unlikely since he has a band of very supportive MPs who would oppose it, and they will likely outnumber the Lib Dems.

    It's not the size of rival groups that matters. It's whether a majority can be constructed.

    NB the SNP might relish the opportunity to make havoc within Labour too.
    The size of the rival groups is important to getting to that majority surely?

    Why would you expect Corbyn, McDonnell, Abbott et al. to vote for a government where Corbyn is not the head rather than just holding out for another election where they could win a majority?

    And if the Corbyn supportive MPs are against it - then to get to a majority you'd need another 20-30 MPs. Seems very unlikely you'd get that from the Tories...
    Are Corbyn supportive MPs so wedded to their leader (not-a-cult) that they will insist that the chance of a Labour-led government is foregone? I'm sure they would be deeply unhappy, but are they prepared to tell Labour voters that an unpopular leader is an essential component of power?
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    DavidLDavidL Posts: 51,125

    rkrkrk said:

    rkrkrk said:

    Lab would presumably also need SNP support which is another push towards no Brexit/soft Brexit. I think the replace Corbyn by the back door scenario is unlikely since he has a band of very supportive MPs who would oppose it, and they will likely outnumber the Lib Dems.

    It's not the size of rival groups that matters. It's whether a majority can be constructed.

    NB the SNP might relish the opportunity to make havoc within Labour too.
    The size of the rival groups is important to getting to that majority surely?

    Why would you expect Corbyn, McDonnell, Abbott et al. to vote for a government where Corbyn is not the head rather than just holding out for another election where they could win a majority?

    And if the Corbyn supportive MPs are against it - then to get to a majority you'd need another 20-30 MPs. Seems very unlikely you'd get that from the Tories...
    Are Corbyn supportive MPs so wedded to their leader (not-a-cult) that they will insist that the chance of a Labour-led government is foregone? I'm sure they would be deeply unhappy, but are they prepared to tell Labour voters that an unpopular leader is an essential component of power?
    I think more to the point would Corbyn deny Labour power if he was reasonably happy with the replacement leadership? I think not. Indeed he might just be a little relieved.
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    IanB2IanB2 Posts: 47,217
    What a nonsense our voting system is.

    An equally interesting scenario would be a small Labour majority, where the reality within the PLP is that anything the leadership might promote that is radically left wing would be way short of a parliamentary majority, and there would be enough Soubry-equivalents always willing to rebel.
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    This is what Labour did to Chamberlain who remained party leader with Churchill as PM.
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    AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 30,340
    DavidL said:

    rkrkrk said:

    rkrkrk said:

    Lab would presumably also need SNP support which is another push towards no Brexit/soft Brexit. I think the replace Corbyn by the back door scenario is unlikely since he has a band of very supportive MPs who would oppose it, and they will likely outnumber the Lib Dems.

    It's not the size of rival groups that matters. It's whether a majority can be constructed.

    NB the SNP might relish the opportunity to make havoc within Labour too.
    The size of the rival groups is important to getting to that majority surely?

    Why would you expect Corbyn, McDonnell, Abbott et al. to vote for a government where Corbyn is not the head rather than just holding out for another election where they could win a majority?

    And if the Corbyn supportive MPs are against it - then to get to a majority you'd need another 20-30 MPs. Seems very unlikely you'd get that from the Tories...
    Are Corbyn supportive MPs so wedded to their leader (not-a-cult) that they will insist that the chance of a Labour-led government is foregone? I'm sure they would be deeply unhappy, but are they prepared to tell Labour voters that an unpopular leader is an essential component of power?
    I think more to the point would Corbyn deny Labour power if he was reasonably happy with the replacement leadership? I think not. Indeed he might just be a little relieved.
    It depends on the substitute. He wouldn't stand aside for Chuka Umunna. He might for Lisa Nandy.

    If he kept the Labour leadership, he might content himself with using party levers of power.
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    IanB2IanB2 Posts: 47,217
    philiph said:

    philiph said:

    Hmmm

    Party on 7% dictates terms and leader to a party on 40%. Minority ideologues taking control seems an apt description.

    We currently have a party on about .5% dictating terms to the Government. If you don't like it, start campaigning for PR.
    I'm not sure PR is the solution to minority views taking precedence over majority views. PR may be a force behind minority views taking on additional weight. After all the 0.5% have influence through bargaining representation for policy, the main tenant of PR.

    I'm not sure all minority views are better or worse than majority views.
    If only there were any majority views.
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    TGOHFTGOHF Posts: 21,633
    Any Labour moderates with any ambition have long since quit Westminster.
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    PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 75,902
    IanB2 said:

    What a nonsense our voting system is.

    An equally interesting scenario would be a small Labour majority, where the reality within the PLP is that anything the leadership might promote that is radically left wing would be way short of a parliamentary majority, and there would be enough Soubry-equivalents always willing to rebel.

    Sandpit said:

    tlg86 said:

    Thank you Alastair. I would disagree with the following:

    May and Hammond are not ideologues.

    I'm not sure moderate Labour MPs are opposed to Corbyn. What they were worried about was getting thumped at an election.

    In the scenario you set out, I think we'd have another election. Jezza would not be standing aside to placate the Lib Dems, that I am certain of.

    May is in thrall to the Tory ideologues, they could bring her down at any moment.
    Indeed. Poor form from Nicky Morgan and Anna Soubry to be proposing amendments that directly contradict the manifesto they were elected on less than a year ago.
    Nicky Morgan and Anna Soubry are not the danger to May and I bet you know which MPs are.
    The moderates might sincerely believe they are doing the right thing but they're definitely a threat to May (As are the ERG)
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    IanB2IanB2 Posts: 47,217
    rkrkrk said:

    rkrkrk said:

    Lab would presumably also need SNP support which is another push towards no Brexit/soft Brexit. I think the replace Corbyn by the back door scenario is unlikely since he has a band of very supportive MPs who would oppose it, and they will likely outnumber the Lib Dems.

    It's not the size of rival groups that matters. It's whether a majority can be constructed.

    NB the SNP might relish the opportunity to make havoc within Labour too.
    The size of the rival groups is important to getting to that majority surely?

    Why would you expect Corbyn, McDonnell, Abbott et al. to vote for a government where Corbyn is not the head rather than just holding out for another election where they could win a majority?

    And if the Corbyn supportive MPs are against it - then to get to a majority you'd need another 20-30 MPs. Seems very unlikely you'd get that from the Tories...
    Labour having lost four elections in a row, and having gone nowhere in the latest one; are they really going to gamble on fifth time lucky? Also remember the intense pressure from the media, business and the financial markets, which was a key driver for getting the 2010 coalition sorted so quickly.
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    FoxyFoxy Posts: 44,518
    rkrkrk said:

    rkrkrk said:

    Lab would presumably also need SNP support which is another push towards no Brexit/soft Brexit. I think the replace Corbyn by the back door scenario is unlikely since he has a band of very supportive MPs who would oppose it, and they will likely outnumber the Lib Dems.

    It's not the size of rival groups that matters. It's whether a majority can be constructed.

    NB the SNP might relish the opportunity to make havoc within Labour too.
    The size of the rival groups is important to getting to that majority surely?

    Why would you expect Corbyn, McDonnell, Abbott et al. to vote for a government where Corbyn is not the head rather than just holding out for another election where they could win a majority?

    And if the Corbyn supportive MPs are against it - then to get to a majority you'd need another 20-30 MPs. Seems very unlikely you'd get that from the Tories...
    I wonder if in such circumstances someone like Thornberry could be PM, while Jezza reamained party leader.

    In a well hung Parliament, there would have to be an innovative solution.
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    JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 38,890
    IanB2 said:

    What a nonsense our voting system is.

    An equally interesting scenario would be a small Labour majority, where the reality within the PLP is that anything the leadership might promote that is radically left wing would be way short of a parliamentary majority, and there would be enough Soubry-equivalents always willing to rebel.

    Would they, though? Would they be willing to work with the evil baby-eating Tories, or withstand the abuse they would get from the hard left on their own side for doing so?

    As we saw under Brown, Labour MPs tend to form into three groups: bullies, drones and cowards.
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    felixfelix Posts: 15,124
    IanB2 said:

    What a nonsense our voting system is.

    An equally interesting scenario would be a small Labour majority, where the reality within the PLP is that anything the leadership might promote that is radically left wing would be way short of a parliamentary majority, and there would be enough Soubry-equivalents always willing to rebel.

    Y
    IanB2 said:

    What a nonsense our voting system is.

    An equally interesting scenario would be a small Labour majority, where the reality within the PLP is that anything the leadership might promote that is radically left wing would be way short of a parliamentary majority, and there would be enough Soubry-equivalents always willing to rebel.

    I cling to that hope with all the force of a nuclear powered limpet :)
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    IanB2IanB2 Posts: 47,217
    TGOHF said:

    Any Labour moderates with any ambition have long since quit Westminster.

    I think you'll find that isn't true. Almost all MPs have ambitions, realistic or otherwise. And there are a lot of moderate Labour ones left.
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    ydoethurydoethur Posts: 67,109
    IanB2 said:

    There would be enough Soubry-equivalents always willing to rebel.

    There really wouldn't. The awkward squad in Labour who stood up for their principles - their equivalent of Soubry or Clarke - were on the left, and indeed Corbyn was one of them. The Blairites, on the generous assumption that they have principles (the overwhelming evidence is that like their leader themselves, they don't) have one overriding ambition - to get and keep power, because they have a fixed belief that as Good People they are the only ones who will exercise it responsibly.

    The irony therefore is that for power, the likes of Mary Creagh would cheerfully pass a law ordering the eating of firstborn children by wild wolves if Corbyn proposed it. The likes of State-sponsored theft of politically attractive companies or restrictions on the press (both of which they think of as Good Things anyway) they will wave through without a murmur.
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    IanB2IanB2 Posts: 47,217

    IanB2 said:

    What a nonsense our voting system is.

    An equally interesting scenario would be a small Labour majority, where the reality within the PLP is that anything the leadership might promote that is radically left wing would be way short of a parliamentary majority, and there would be enough Soubry-equivalents always willing to rebel.

    Would they, though? Would they be willing to work with the evil baby-eating Tories, or withstand the abuse they would get from the hard left on their own side for doing so?

    As we saw under Brown, Labour MPs tend to form into three groups: bullies, drones and cowards.
    A fair few of them are well beyond that stage already, such as those recently listed out as traitors by big Len.
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    IanB2IanB2 Posts: 47,217
    edited May 2018
    ydoethur said:

    IanB2 said:

    There would be enough Soubry-equivalents always willing to rebel.

    There really wouldn't. The awkward squad in Labour who stood up for their principles - their equivalent of Soubry or Clarke - were on the left, and indeed Corbyn was one of them. The Blairites, on the generous assumption that they have principles (the overwhelming evidence is that like their leader themselves, they don't) have one overriding ambition - to get and keep power, because they have a fixed belief that as Good People they are the only ones who will exercise it responsibly.

    The irony therefore is that for power, the likes of Mary Creagh would cheerfully pass a law ordering the eating of firstborn children by wild wolves if Corbyn proposed it. The likes of State-sponsored theft of politically attractive companies or restrictions on the press (both of which they think of as Good Things anyway) they will wave through without a murmur.
    I take your point - my personal experience of so-called moderate Labour politicians is that they do indeed have few principles that they will not sell for personal and party ambition. Nevertheless the personal animosities within Labour are already strong (and won't be entirely resolved by a victory), and the lack of prospective career advancement under the left will leave a fair few looking to position themselves for the main chance.
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    Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 60,969
    On a lighter note, working on a small video (radio, really) about where Ricciardo might end up. Closed captions are generally very good, but there are a few fun ones:

    "Having Hamilton and Mikado in the same team would be great for the sport"
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    OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 31,918
    ydoethur said:

    IanB2 said:

    There would be enough Soubry-equivalents always willing to rebel.

    There really wouldn't. The awkward squad in Labour who stood up for their principles - their equivalent of Soubry or Clarke - were on the left, and indeed Corbyn was one of them. The Blairites, on the generous assumption that they have principles (the overwhelming evidence is that like their leader themselves, they don't) have one overriding ambition - to get and keep power, because they have a fixed belief that as Good People they are the only ones who will exercise it responsibly.

    The irony therefore is that for power, the likes of Mary Creagh would cheerfully pass a law ordering the eating of firstborn children by wild wolves if Corbyn proposed it. The likes of State-sponsored theft of politically attractive companies or restrictions on the press (both of which they think of as Good Things anyway) they will wave through without a murmur.
    Surely most people go into politics to acquire the ability to exercise power. The newly elected District Councillor doesn’t seriously feel as though they have the key to No 10 in their pack, as the old saying goes, but somewhere, deep in their innermost fantasies, that feeling is there.
    The likes of Corbyn or JRM, who find themselves in what appear to be safe seats exercise that power by being, in their minds, the custodians of the True Faith.
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    TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 39,961

    The possibility of doing this seems like a useful negotiating card for the LibDems to have in their back pocket, but if this is before Brexit I'd have thought they'd trade pretty much anything for a re-referendum.

    However, if you've only got 14 seats it's quite unlikely the numbers turn out exactly right for you to be kingmaker.

    The Lib Dems are not the only party who could pull this stunt. To be honest, it works better for the SNP, who have a vested interest in chaos at Westminster at all times.
    Mebbes aye or naw, but for the most part all they've had to do is sit back and let Westminster make its own chaos all by itself.
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    PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 75,902
    IanB2 said:

    ydoethur said:

    IanB2 said:

    There would be enough Soubry-equivalents always willing to rebel.

    There really wouldn't. The awkward squad in Labour who stood up for their principles - their equivalent of Soubry or Clarke - were on the left, and indeed Corbyn was one of them. The Blairites, on the generous assumption that they have principles (the overwhelming evidence is that like their leader themselves, they don't) have one overriding ambition - to get and keep power, because they have a fixed belief that as Good People they are the only ones who will exercise it responsibly.

    The irony therefore is that for power, the likes of Mary Creagh would cheerfully pass a law ordering the eating of firstborn children by wild wolves if Corbyn proposed it. The likes of State-sponsored theft of politically attractive companies or restrictions on the press (both of which they think of as Good Things anyway) they will wave through without a murmur.
    I take your point - my personal experience of so-called moderate Labour politicians is that they do indeed have few principles that they will not sell for personal and party ambition. Nevertheless the personal animosities within Labour are already strong (and won't be entirely resolved by a victory), and the lack of prospective career advancement under the left will leave a fair few looking to position themselves for the main chance.
    Like Owen Smith Jones ?
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    ydoethurydoethur Posts: 67,109

    ydoethur said:

    IanB2 said:

    There would be enough Soubry-equivalents always willing to rebel.

    There really wouldn't. The awkward squad in Labour who stood up for their principles - their equivalent of Soubry or Clarke - were on the left, and indeed Corbyn was one of them. The Blairites, on the generous assumption that they have principles (the overwhelming evidence is that like their leader themselves, they don't) have one overriding ambition - to get and keep power, because they have a fixed belief that as Good People they are the only ones who will exercise it responsibly.

    The irony therefore is that for power, the likes of Mary Creagh would cheerfully pass a law ordering the eating of firstborn children by wild wolves if Corbyn proposed it. The likes of State-sponsored theft of politically attractive companies or restrictions on the press (both of which they think of as Good Things anyway) they will wave through without a murmur.
    Surely most people go into politics to acquire the ability to exercise power. The newly elected District Councillor doesn’t seriously feel as though they have the key to No 10 in their pack, as the old saying goes, but somewhere, deep in their innermost fantasies, that feeling is there.
    The likes of Corbyn or JRM, who find themselves in what appear to be safe seats exercise that power by being, in their minds, the custodians of the True Faith.
    Yes, that is true. However, there is exercising power because you want to improve things (sense of public service could come under that heading) and there is exercising power because you are an egotist who believes anything you do is right because it's you doing it.

    The Tories are not by any means immune to the latter tendency but New Labour were particularly egregious in that regard. That's how you end up with sad disasters like the Iraq War, top-up fees and Stephen Byers repeatedly misleading Parliament.

    The irony is whatever his faults Corbyn is undoubtedly after power for the former reason. His prescriptions are totally wrong-headed and would make matters far worse but he's certainly not after power for its own sake.
  • Options
    ydoethurydoethur Posts: 67,109
    Pulpstar said:

    IanB2 said:

    ydoethur said:

    IanB2 said:

    There would be enough Soubry-equivalents always willing to rebel.

    There really wouldn't. The awkward squad in Labour who stood up for their principles - their equivalent of Soubry or Clarke - were on the left, and indeed Corbyn was one of them. The Blairites, on the generous assumption that they have principles (the overwhelming evidence is that like their leader themselves, they don't) have one overriding ambition - to get and keep power, because they have a fixed belief that as Good People they are the only ones who will exercise it responsibly.

    The irony therefore is that for power, the likes of Mary Creagh would cheerfully pass a law ordering the eating of firstborn children by wild wolves if Corbyn proposed it. The likes of State-sponsored theft of politically attractive companies or restrictions on the press (both of which they think of as Good Things anyway) they will wave through without a murmur.
    I take your point - my personal experience of so-called moderate Labour politicians is that they do indeed have few principles that they will not sell for personal and party ambition. Nevertheless the personal animosities within Labour are already strong (and won't be entirely resolved by a victory), and the lack of prospective career advancement under the left will leave a fair few looking to position themselves for the main chance.
    Like Owen Smith Jones ?
    Alas, Smith and Jones...
  • Options
    AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 23,754
    While Italy raises temperatures in Europe TMerkel is embroiled in an immigration scandal of her own making which now looks like its heading for a full parliamentary investigation

    synopsis

    -Angie opens borders in 2015
    - Immigration office overwhelmed by cases
    - Angie says wave them through delays are making us look bad
    - so they do and ignore all procedures
    - bit of bribery thrown in to make it all more scandalous

    https://www.welt.de/politik/deutschland/article176765501/BAMF-Krise-Das-Kanzleramt-traegt-die-Verantwortung.html
  • Options
    SandpitSandpit Posts: 49,842
    edited May 2018
    Foxy said:

    rkrkrk said:

    rkrkrk said:

    Lab would presumably also need SNP support which is another push towards no Brexit/soft Brexit. I think the replace Corbyn by the back door scenario is unlikely since he has a band of very supportive MPs who would oppose it, and they will likely outnumber the Lib Dems.

    It's not the size of rival groups that matters. It's whether a majority can be constructed.

    NB the SNP might relish the opportunity to make havoc within Labour too.
    The size of the rival groups is important to getting to that majority surely?

    Why would you expect Corbyn, McDonnell, Abbott et al. to vote for a government where Corbyn is not the head rather than just holding out for another election where they could win a majority?

    And if the Corbyn supportive MPs are against it - then to get to a majority you'd need another 20-30 MPs. Seems very unlikely you'd get that from the Tories...
    I wonder if in such circumstances someone like Thornberry could be PM, while Jezza reamained party leader.

    In a well hung Parliament, there would have to be an innovative solution.
    A well hung Parliament, such as the numbers in the header, would be absolutely chaos. The DUP would probably line up behind the Tories, with the Greens and maybe PC behind Labour. The LDs will not want to sign anything after their previous experience with a formal coalition, and the SNP will probably agree to prop up Labour in theory but then do their own thing in practice to add to the chaos.

    The reality would probably be another election a few months down the line, with whichever of the main parties isn’t leading the government having a change of leader in the interim.
  • Options
    OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 31,918
    O/t. Mioney talks. Yingluck Shinawatra, the on-the-run ex PM of Thailand has been granted a 10 year visitor visa to UK, according to reports in the ex-pat press. She apparently has a passport from an unnamed EU country. Meanwhile Roman Abramovitch is apparently getting an Israeli passport, which will enable him to come and go to and from UK without let or hindrance.
  • Options
    MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 37,606
    DavidL said:

    This page contains a table of the target2 balances to March: http://sdw.ecb.europa.eu/reports.do?node=1000004859

    The Italians have a deficit of 442bn. The Germans a surplus of 923bn. Spain has a deficit of 381bn. The Netherlands a surplus of 112bn. These kinds of balances have really only developed since 2008. Before that the balances at the ECB for everyone were very small. This is how the ECB has kept the yields of Euro denominated debt low, even of countries with excess debt like Italy. It has kept the show on the road but is it really sustainable? That is the key to what happens next.

    Leave the EMU, renominate all debt back to Lira. Inflate away the debt.
  • Options
    ydoethurydoethur Posts: 67,109

    O/t. Mioney talks. Yingluck Shinawatra, the on-the-run ex PM of Thailand has been granted a 10 year visitor visa to UK, according to reports in the ex-pat press. She apparently has a passport from an unnamed EU country. Meanwhile Roman Abramovitch is apparently getting an Israeli passport, which will enable him to come and go to and from UK without let or hindrance.

    If she has a passport from an EU country, why would she need a visa?
  • Options
    Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 60,969
    Enjoy the second instalment of Radio Morris Dancer:
    http://enormo-haddock.blogspot.co.uk/2018/05/ricciardo-where-to-in-2019.html
  • Options
    ydoethurydoethur Posts: 67,109
    MaxPB said:

    DavidL said:

    This page contains a table of the target2 balances to March: http://sdw.ecb.europa.eu/reports.do?node=1000004859

    The Italians have a deficit of 442bn. The Germans a surplus of 923bn. Spain has a deficit of 381bn. The Netherlands a surplus of 112bn. These kinds of balances have really only developed since 2008. Before that the balances at the ECB for everyone were very small. This is how the ECB has kept the yields of Euro denominated debt low, even of countries with excess debt like Italy. It has kept the show on the road but is it really sustainable? That is the key to what happens next.

    Leave the EMU, renominate all debt back to Lira. Inflate away the debt.
    Okaaaaayyyyy...

    May I recommend this book to you?

    https://www.amazon.co.uk/When-Money-Dies-Nightmare-Hyper-inflation/dp/1910400300
  • Options
    IanB2IanB2 Posts: 47,217
    MaxPB said:

    DavidL said:

    This page contains a table of the target2 balances to March: http://sdw.ecb.europa.eu/reports.do?node=1000004859

    The Italians have a deficit of 442bn. The Germans a surplus of 923bn. Spain has a deficit of 381bn. The Netherlands a surplus of 112bn. These kinds of balances have really only developed since 2008. Before that the balances at the ECB for everyone were very small. This is how the ECB has kept the yields of Euro denominated debt low, even of countries with excess debt like Italy. It has kept the show on the road but is it really sustainable? That is the key to what happens next.

    Leave the EMU, renominate all debt back to Lira. Inflate away the debt.
    Simple solutions with no regard to the consequences - surely you must have voted Brexit?
  • Options
    SandpitSandpit Posts: 49,842
    MaxPB said:

    DavidL said:

    This page contains a table of the target2 balances to March: http://sdw.ecb.europa.eu/reports.do?node=1000004859

    The Italians have a deficit of 442bn. The Germans a surplus of 923bn. Spain has a deficit of 381bn. The Netherlands a surplus of 112bn. These kinds of balances have really only developed since 2008. Before that the balances at the ECB for everyone were very small. This is how the ECB has kept the yields of Euro denominated debt low, even of countries with excess debt like Italy. It has kept the show on the road but is it really sustainable? That is the key to what happens next.

    Leave the EMU, renominate all debt back to Lira. Inflate away the debt.
    Is going to be the only way to do it, if the ECB take the same approach they did with Greece.

    The problem is that the more talk there is about it, the more Italians will be emptying their bank accounts - making the problem worse. When people don’t have faith in the future of their currency or the banking system in their country, the result is piles of Benjamins literally kept under the mattress.
  • Options
    OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 31,918
    ydoethur said:

    O/t. Mioney talks. Yingluck Shinawatra, the on-the-run ex PM of Thailand has been granted a 10 year visitor visa to UK, according to reports in the ex-pat press. She apparently has a passport from an unnamed EU country. Meanwhile Roman Abramovitch is apparently getting an Israeli passport, which will enable him to come and go to and from UK without let or hindrance.

    If she has a passport from an EU country, why would she need a visa?
    My misreading: unnamed European country, not necessarily EU.
  • Options
    CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 59,573
    https://twitter.com/henrikenderlein/status/1001357844963299329

    Non-trivial when your debt is over two trillion Euros...
  • Options
    AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 23,754

    https://twitter.com/henrikenderlein/status/1001357844963299329

    Non-trivial when your debt is over two trillion Euros...

    stand by for Project Fear mark 2
  • Options
    CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 59,573
    edited May 2018
    ydoethur said:

    O/t. Mioney talks. Yingluck Shinawatra, the on-the-run ex PM of Thailand has been granted a 10 year visitor visa to UK, according to reports in the ex-pat press. She apparently has a passport from an unnamed EU country. Meanwhile Roman Abramovitch is apparently getting an Israeli passport, which will enable him to come and go to and from UK without let or hindrance.

    If she has a passport from an EU country, why would she need a visa?
    Montenegro.....needs a visa

    https://www.bangkokpost.com/news/politics/1474521/bbc-yingluck-gets-10-year-visa-from-uk
  • Options
    ydoethurydoethur Posts: 67,109

    ydoethur said:

    O/t. Mioney talks. Yingluck Shinawatra, the on-the-run ex PM of Thailand has been granted a 10 year visitor visa to UK, according to reports in the ex-pat press. She apparently has a passport from an unnamed EU country. Meanwhile Roman Abramovitch is apparently getting an Israeli passport, which will enable him to come and go to and from UK without let or hindrance.

    If she has a passport from an EU country, why would she need a visa?
    My misreading: unnamed European country, not necessarily EU.
    Thank you.

    So we did have a choice and we funked it. At the same time, we are bearing down on hundreds of thousands of people whose status is uncertain although they cause no damage to anyone.

    Great. What could possibly go wrong?
  • Options
    CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 59,573

    https://twitter.com/henrikenderlein/status/1001357844963299329

    Non-trivial when your debt is over two trillion Euros...

    stand by for Project Fear mark 2
    We're onto 3 now, surely?

    Only one has worked so far....

  • Options
    eekeek Posts: 24,932
    edited May 2018
    Sandpit said:

    MaxPB said:

    DavidL said:

    This page contains a table of the target2 balances to March: http://sdw.ecb.europa.eu/reports.do?node=1000004859

    The Italians have a deficit of 442bn. The Germans a surplus of 923bn. Spain has a deficit of 381bn. The Netherlands a surplus of 112bn. These kinds of balances have really only developed since 2008. Before that the balances at the ECB for everyone were very small. This is how the ECB has kept the yields of Euro denominated debt low, even of countries with excess debt like Italy. It has kept the show on the road but is it really sustainable? That is the key to what happens next.

    Leave the EMU, renominate all debt back to Lira. Inflate away the debt.
    Is going to be the only way to do it, if the ECB take the same approach they did with Greece.

    The problem is that the more talk there is about it, the more Italians will be emptying their bank accounts - making the problem worse. When people don’t have faith in the future of their currency or the banking system in their country, the result is piles of Benjamins literally kept under the mattress.
    I suspect its Euro's under the mattress but I wouldn't have them in an Italian bank account.

    Equally hasn't ever model for Euro breakup shown that it is better for the Netherlands and Germany to leave as it will have less impact than Italy (or co) leaving.
  • Options
    SandpitSandpit Posts: 49,842

    Enjoy the second instalment of Radio Morris Dancer:
    http://enormo-haddock.blogspot.co.uk/2018/05/ricciardo-where-to-in-2019.html

    Good analysis, although your site is still eating comments from my iPad with either the Name/url or Anonymous options. If I were Helmut Marko, I’d be asking Mr Mateschitz to sign the big cheque while their man is still high from the Monaco weekend - before NikI Lauda and Toto Wolff can get to him!
  • Options
    kle4kle4 Posts: 91,625
    tlg86 said:

    Thank you Alastair. I would disagree with the following:

    May and Hammond are not ideologues.

    I'm not sure moderate Labour MPs are opposed to Corbyn. What they were worried about was getting thumped at an election.

    In the scenario you set out, I think we'd have another election. Jezza would not be standing aside to placate the Lib Dems, that I am certain of.

    Agreed. In particular most lab mps seem perfectly content with corbyn and the direction of the party, outside of some issues on foreign affairs and anti semitism.
  • Options
    eekeek Posts: 24,932
    edited May 2018
    Sandpit said:

    Enjoy the second instalment of Radio Morris Dancer:
    http://enormo-haddock.blogspot.co.uk/2018/05/ricciardo-where-to-in-2019.html

    Good analysis, although your site is still eating comments from my iPad with either the Name/url or Anonymous options. If I were Helmut Marko, I’d be asking Mr Mateschitz to sign the big cheque while their man is still high from the Monaco weekend - before NikI Lauda and Toto Wolff can get to him!
    As I commented on yesterday the Red Bull risk is their switch to a Honda Engine. As Riccardo is. I would be waiting until the new engine (for Canada) is seen in action.
  • Options
    Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 60,969
    Mr. Sandpit, thanks, and I agree.

    On blogspot commenting, it works ok for e (via PC). You could try signing into a Google account, though I suspect the same problem might occur. Not sure why. It's annoying though, I rather like reading comments (I do go back to old articles sometimes when looking ahead to a race, so having comments there is useful for a long while).
  • Options
    DavidLDavidL Posts: 51,125
    MaxPB said:

    DavidL said:

    This page contains a table of the target2 balances to March: http://sdw.ecb.europa.eu/reports.do?node=1000004859

    The Italians have a deficit of 442bn. The Germans a surplus of 923bn. Spain has a deficit of 381bn. The Netherlands a surplus of 112bn. These kinds of balances have really only developed since 2008. Before that the balances at the ECB for everyone were very small. This is how the ECB has kept the yields of Euro denominated debt low, even of countries with excess debt like Italy. It has kept the show on the road but is it really sustainable? That is the key to what happens next.

    Leave the EMU, renominate all debt back to Lira. Inflate away the debt.
    Possible but very difficult. These debts exist in a hard currency and the creditors are not obliged to accept lira at some rate determined by the Italians. This would be a default and a major one at that with implications well beyond Italy.

    Of course perpetual inflation/depreciation was how the Italian model worked before the Euro. It was not necessary to repay debt which was consistently being inflated away so the country could run a perpetual deficit without suffering significant damage. Such an approach also seemed to encourage investment since the value of the assets increased while the value of the debt to buy them decreased. Once the Euro stopped that their model seized up.
  • Options
    AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 23,754

    https://twitter.com/henrikenderlein/status/1001357844963299329

    Non-trivial when your debt is over two trillion Euros...

    stand by for Project Fear mark 2
    We're onto 3 now, surely?

    Only one has worked so far....

    The plan must be to get Matterella to delay elections as long as possible so the finance markets can scare the voters. Then it's wallets versus sovereignty as the establishments best chance.

    Sound familiar ?
  • Options
    Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 60,969
    Mr. eek, the removal of the MGU-H, anticipated for 2021, will help (ok, that's some way off but Ricciardo's going to be around for a while). The Toro Rosso performance this year indicates a significant improvement by Honda.

    Mr. Brooke, who determines the timing of elections, though?
  • Options
    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,940
    Technically of course May was the moderate candidate in 2016 with Leadsom the hard Brexiteer,so while Corbyn was clearly the most left-wing of the Labour leadership candidates in 2016 unless say Mogg or Gove or Boris is elected Tory leader after May it cannot be said both parties have completely abandoned the 'centre.' Though if by the 'centre' we mean pro EU, centrist economics the Leave victory in the EU referendum and the 40% Corbyn Labour got at the general election suggests the centre currently represents a pretty small pool.

    If the LDs do hold the balance of power after the next general election it is also very unlikely the Labour membership would agree to remove Corbyn. So if the LDs then abstained in a confidence vote and Labour + nationalists + Greens > Tories + DUP then Corbyn would become PM in all likelihood even though the Tories have won most seats, in post-war British politics an unprecedented scenario. The LDs would then take up a vote by vote position on each bill the new government put forward so in practice Corbyn would though still be reliant on the LDs to get any legislation through the Commons.
  • Options
    AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 23,754

    Mr. eek, the removal of the MGU-H, anticipated for 2021, will help (ok, that's some way off but Ricciardo's going to be around for a while). The Toro Rosso performance this year indicates a significant improvement by Honda.

    Mr. Brooke, who determines the timing of elections, though?

    who the hell knows?

    if the president is deciding who can govern rather than the electorate then the rules are a bit fluid to say the least .
  • Options
    another_richardanother_richard Posts: 25,046

    While Italy raises temperatures in Europe TMerkel is embroiled in an immigration scandal of her own making which now looks like its heading for a full parliamentary investigation

    synopsis

    -Angie opens borders in 2015
    - Immigration office overwhelmed by cases
    - Angie says wave them through delays are making us look bad
    - so they do and ignore all procedures
    - bit of bribery thrown in to make it all more scandalous

    https://www.welt.de/politik/deutschland/article176765501/BAMF-Krise-Das-Kanzleramt-traegt-die-Verantwortung.html

    Ia Angie taking responsibility for any crimes committed by people who shouldn't have been allowed in ?
  • Options
    rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 58,155

    https://twitter.com/henrikenderlein/status/1001357844963299329

    Non-trivial when your debt is over two trillion Euros...

    stand by for Project Fear mark 2
    We're onto 3 now, surely?

    Only one has worked so far....

    The plan must be to get Matterella to delay elections as long as possible so the finance markets can scare the voters. Then it's wallets versus sovereignty as the establishments best chance.

    Sound familiar ?
    there is a view that Mattarella made his decision because wasn't a specific mandate from the electorate to take on the euro as the new proposed finance minister wanted.

    this is being charitable i suppose.

    the alternate view is that the euro elite are trying to stop populists by non democratic means.
  • Options
    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,940

    DavidL said:

    rkrkrk said:

    rkrkrk said:

    Lab would presumably also need SNP support which is another push towards no Brexit/soft Brexit. I think the replace Corbyn by the back door scenario is unlikely since he has a band of very supportive MPs who would oppose it, and they will likely outnumber the Lib Dems.

    It's not the size of rival groups that matters. It's whether a majority can be constructed.

    NB the SNP might relish the opportunity to make havoc within Labour too.
    The size of the rival groups is important to getting to that majority surely?

    Why would you expect Corbyn, McDonnell, Abbott et al. to vote for a government where Corbyn is not the head rather than just holding out for another election where they could win a majority?

    And if the Corbyn supportive MPs are against it - then to get to a majority you'd need another 20-30 MPs. Seems very unlikely you'd get that from the Tories...
    Are Corbyn supportive MPs so wedded to their leader (not-a-cult) that they will insist that the chance of a Labour-led government is foregone? I'm sure they would be deeply unhappy, but are they prepared to tell Labour voters that an unpopular leader is an essential component of power?
    I think more to the point would Corbyn deny Labour power if he was reasonably happy with the replacement leadership? I think not. Indeed he might just be a little relieved.
    It depends on the substitute. He wouldn't stand aside for Chuka Umunna. He might for Lisa Nandy.

    If he kept the Labour leadership, he might content himself with using party levers of power.
    I very much doubt Corbyn would stand aside and even if he did Labour members choose his replacement which could equally be McDonnnell and I doubt Corbyn would oppose any bid by him
  • Options
    DavidLDavidL Posts: 51,125
    eek said:

    Sandpit said:

    MaxPB said:

    DavidL said:

    This page contains a table of the target2 balances to March: http://sdw.ecb.europa.eu/reports.do?node=1000004859

    The Italians have a deficit of 442bn. The Germans a surplus of 923bn. Spain has a deficit of 381bn. The Netherlands a surplus of 112bn. These kinds of balances have really only developed since 2008. Before that the balances at the ECB for everyone were very small. This is how the ECB has kept the yields of Euro denominated debt low, even of countries with excess debt like Italy. It has kept the show on the road but is it really sustainable? That is the key to what happens next.

    Leave the EMU, renominate all debt back to Lira. Inflate away the debt.
    Is going to be the only way to do it, if the ECB take the same approach they did with Greece.

    The problem is that the more talk there is about it, the more Italians will be emptying their bank accounts - making the problem worse. When people don’t have faith in the future of their currency or the banking system in their country, the result is piles of Benjamins literally kept under the mattress.
    I suspect its Euro's under the mattress but I wouldn't have them in an Italian bank account.

    Equally hasn't ever model for Euro breakup shown that it is better for the Netherlands and Germany to leave as it will have less impact than Italy (or co) leaving.
    That's exactly what is happening. Italian savers, and they save a lot, are massively diversifying their portfolios furth of Italy. This has created shortages of cash within the Italian banking system which has been filled by the target2 borrowing.
  • Options
    AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 23,754


    While Italy raises temperatures in Europe TMerkel is embroiled in an immigration scandal of her own making which now looks like its heading for a full parliamentary investigation

    synopsis

    -Angie opens borders in 2015
    - Immigration office overwhelmed by cases
    - Angie says wave them through delays are making us look bad
    - so they do and ignore all procedures
    - bit of bribery thrown in to make it all more scandalous

    https://www.welt.de/politik/deutschland/article176765501/BAMF-Krise-Das-Kanzleramt-traegt-die-Verantwortung.html

    Ia Angie taking responsibility for any crimes committed by people who shouldn't have been allowed in ?
    lol

    what do you think ?

    her biggest exposure on this is vetting procedures were ignored. So as well as letting migrnts who were clearly economic through, there has be no checking of people with dubious pasts. Chuck in that officials were allegedly bribed to move people further up the queue and Merkel has just blown a huge hole in Europe's immigration controls. Presumably anyone waived through can now just turn up in an EU country of their choice.
  • Options
    another_richardanother_richard Posts: 25,046

    As a sleepy side, the news did cover white farms in South Africa having parts claimed by blacks. The segment did raise the possibility of a Zimbabwe-style situation recurring (although they asked a black farmer about this, which is a bit like asking Captain Chubbychops if cake is a good thing), but it was bizarre that they didn't mention the serious violence being committed against white farmers.

    It does seem the ANC is going to put through legislation to confiscate white farmland.

    Perhaps the 'food is rotting in the fields' crowd will suggest recruiting South African farmers for this country.

    English speaking, hard working, skilled and with high employment rates:

    https://www.ons.gov.uk/employmentandlabourmarket/peopleinwork/employmentandemployeetypes/datasets/employmentbycountryofbirthandnationalityemp06
  • Options
    rkrkrkrkrkrk Posts: 7,905

    rkrkrk said:

    rkrkrk said:

    Lab would presumably also need SNP support which is another push towards no Brexit/soft Brexit. I think the replace Corbyn by the back door scenario is unlikely since he has a band of very supportive MPs who would oppose it, and they will likely outnumber the Lib Dems.

    It's not the size of rival groups that matters. It's whether a majority can be constructed.

    NB the SNP might relish the opportunity to make havoc within Labour too.
    The size of the rival groups is important to getting to that majority surely?

    Why would you expect Corbyn, McDonnell, Abbott et al. to vote for a government where Corbyn is not the head rather than just holding out for another election where they could win a majority?

    And if the Corbyn supportive MPs are against it - then to get to a majority you'd need another 20-30 MPs. Seems very unlikely you'd get that from the Tories...
    Are Corbyn supportive MPs so wedded to their leader (not-a-cult) that they will insist that the chance of a Labour-led government is foregone? I'm sure they would be deeply unhappy, but are they prepared to tell Labour voters that an unpopular leader is an essential component of power?
    Perhaps you're right. It would depend who the new leader was I suppose.
    I could imagine that Corbyn would step aside if he believed the project would continue.
  • Options
    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,940

    As a sleepy side, the news did cover white farms in South Africa having parts claimed by blacks. The segment did raise the possibility of a Zimbabwe-style situation recurring (although they asked a black farmer about this, which is a bit like asking Captain Chubbychops if cake is a good thing), but it was bizarre that they didn't mention the serious violence being committed against white farmers.

    It does seem the ANC is going to put through legislation to confiscate white farmland.

    Most whites in South Africa are probably not now farmers unlike Zimbabwe but Boris should express the government's opposition to any such measure if the ANC tries to push it through
  • Options
    rkrkrkrkrkrk Posts: 7,905
    IanB2 said:

    rkrkrk said:

    rkrkrk said:

    Lab would presumably also need SNP support which is another push towards no Brexit/soft Brexit. I think the replace Corbyn by the back door scenario is unlikely since he has a band of very supportive MPs who would oppose it, and they will likely outnumber the Lib Dems.

    It's not the size of rival groups that matters. It's whether a majority can be constructed.

    NB the SNP might relish the opportunity to make havoc within Labour too.
    The size of the rival groups is important to getting to that majority surely?

    Why would you expect Corbyn, McDonnell, Abbott et al. to vote for a government where Corbyn is not the head rather than just holding out for another election where they could win a majority?

    And if the Corbyn supportive MPs are against it - then to get to a majority you'd need another 20-30 MPs. Seems very unlikely you'd get that from the Tories...
    Labour having lost four elections in a row, and having gone nowhere in the latest one; are they really going to gamble on fifth time lucky? Also remember the intense pressure from the media, business and the financial markets, which was a key driver for getting the 2010 coalition sorted so quickly.
    If they keep making gains - they might well gamble!
    I don't think Corbyn would be swayed by intense pressure from the media, business and financial markets. [As an aside, given how long other countries seem to go without govts, I'm not sure he should be swayed all that much]
  • Options
    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,940

    https://twitter.com/henrikenderlein/status/1001357844963299329

    Non-trivial when your debt is over two trillion Euros...

    stand by for Project Fear mark 2
    We're onto 3 now, surely?

    Only one has worked so far....

    The plan must be to get Matterella to delay elections as long as possible so the finance markets can scare the voters. Then it's wallets versus sovereignty as the establishments best chance.

    Sound familiar ?
    More likely it will end up like Greece 2015 where the EU elite just delayed Tsipras becoming PM they did not stop him outright. Most likely new elections would see a Five Star and Lega Nord landslide over the establishment parties of the Democrats and Forza Italia.

  • Options
    SandpitSandpit Posts: 49,842
    eek said:

    Sandpit said:

    Enjoy the second instalment of Radio Morris Dancer:
    http://enormo-haddock.blogspot.co.uk/2018/05/ricciardo-where-to-in-2019.html

    Good analysis, although your site is still eating comments from my iPad with either the Name/url or Anonymous options. If I were Helmut Marko, I’d be asking Mr Mateschitz to sign the big cheque while their man is still high from the Monaco weekend - before NikI Lauda and Toto Wolff can get to him!
    As I commented on yesterday the Red Bull risk is their switch to a Honda Engine. As Riccardo is. I would be waiting until the new engine (for Canada) is seen in action.
    Agreed. They’re desperate to ditch Renault, but are rightly worried about going all in with Honda if there’s not a big improvement in the Japanese engines. IMO I can’t see much change in the relative performance of the various engines for the next couple of years, ahead of the next big regulation change in 2021 - in which case Daniel will be better off spending 2019 and 2020 in a Mercedes if he wants a serious shot at a drivers’ title.
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    another_richardanother_richard Posts: 25,046
    DavidL said:

    This page contains a table of the target2 balances to March: http://sdw.ecb.europa.eu/reports.do?node=1000004859

    The Italians have a deficit of 442bn. The Germans a surplus of 923bn. Spain has a deficit of 381bn. The Netherlands a surplus of 112bn. These kinds of balances have really only developed since 2008. Before that the balances at the ECB for everyone were very small. This is how the ECB has kept the yields of Euro denominated debt low, even of countries with excess debt like Italy. It has kept the show on the road but is it really sustainable? That is the key to what happens next.

    So what happens when the next financial crisis happens ?
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    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,940
    rkrkrk said:

    rkrkrk said:

    rkrkrk said:

    Lab would presumably also need SNP support which is another push towards no Brexit/soft Brexit. I think the replace Corbyn by the back door scenario is unlikely since he has a band of very supportive MPs who would oppose it, and they will likely outnumber the Lib Dems.

    It's not the size of rival groups that matters. It's whether a majority can be constructed.

    NB the SNP might relish the opportunity to make havoc within Labour too.
    The size of the rival groups is important to getting to that majority surely?

    Why would you expect Corbyn, McDonnell, Abbott et al. to vote for a government where Corbyn is not the head rather than just holding out for another election where they could win a majority?

    And if the Corbyn supportive MPs are against it - then to get to a majority you'd need another 20-30 MPs. Seems very unlikely you'd get that from the Tories...
    Are Corbyn supportive MPs so wedded to their leader (not-a-cult) that they will insist that the chance of a Labour-led government is foregone? I'm sure they would be deeply unhappy, but are they prepared to tell Labour voters that an unpopular leader is an essential component of power?
    Perhaps you're right. It would depend who the new leader was I suppose.
    I could imagine that Corbyn would step aside if he believed the project would continue.
    He might refuse to step aside for anyone but McDonnell and remember any new leader has to get approved by the Labour membership
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    Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 60,969
    Mr. Sandpit, Hamilton has yet to sign a new deal. May give him a little more leverage, but I think Ricciardo's worth signing even so. The pair of them would be the best on the grid.
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    TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 39,961

    As a sleepy side, the news did cover white farms in South Africa having parts claimed by blacks. The segment did raise the possibility of a Zimbabwe-style situation recurring (although they asked a black farmer about this, which is a bit like asking Captain Chubbychops if cake is a good thing), but it was bizarre that they didn't mention the serious violence being committed against white farmers.

    It does seem the ANC is going to put through legislation to confiscate white farmland.

    Perhaps the 'food is rotting in the fields' crowd will suggest recruiting South African farmers for this country.

    English speaking, hard working, skilled and with high employment rates:

    https://www.ons.gov.uk/employmentandlabourmarket/peopleinwork/employmentandemployeetypes/datasets/employmentbycountryofbirthandnationalityemp06
    C'mon, let the cons have a go first.
    ™Cons
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    Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 60,969
    Mr. HYUFD, but only the incumbent is guaranteed a slot on the shortlist. McDonnell would require some MP backing (though I suspect he might get it given how things are going).
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    ydoethurydoethur Posts: 67,109

    Mr. Sandpit, Hamilton has yet to sign a new deal. May give him a little more leverage, but I think Ricciardo's worth signing even so. The pair of them would be the best on the grid.

    Yes, undoubtedly.

    But would Hamilton, Schumacher-style, threaten to flounce if his team mate turned out to be another Alonso or Rosberg?
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    another_richardanother_richard Posts: 25,046


    While Italy raises temperatures in Europe TMerkel is embroiled in an immigration scandal of her own making which now looks like its heading for a full parliamentary investigation

    synopsis

    -Angie opens borders in 2015
    - Immigration office overwhelmed by cases
    - Angie says wave them through delays are making us look bad
    - so they do and ignore all procedures
    - bit of bribery thrown in to make it all more scandalous

    https://www.welt.de/politik/deutschland/article176765501/BAMF-Krise-Das-Kanzleramt-traegt-die-Verantwortung.html

    Is Angie taking responsibility for any crimes committed by people who shouldn't have been allowed in ?
    lol

    what do you think ?

    her biggest exposure on this is vetting procedures were ignored. So as well as letting migrnts who were clearly economic through, there has be no checking of people with dubious pasts. Chuck in that officials were allegedly bribed to move people further up the queue and Merkel has just blown a huge hole in Europe's immigration controls. Presumably anyone waived through can now just turn up in an EU country of their choice.
    Laws are only for the little countries.

    Merkel follows in the tradition of German leaders that pieces of paper are worthless as soon as she decides they are.
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    SandpitSandpit Posts: 49,842

    DavidL said:

    This page contains a table of the target2 balances to March: http://sdw.ecb.europa.eu/reports.do?node=1000004859

    The Italians have a deficit of 442bn. The Germans a surplus of 923bn. Spain has a deficit of 381bn. The Netherlands a surplus of 112bn. These kinds of balances have really only developed since 2008. Before that the balances at the ECB for everyone were very small. This is how the ECB has kept the yields of Euro denominated debt low, even of countries with excess debt like Italy. It has kept the show on the road but is it really sustainable? That is the key to what happens next.

    So what happens when the next financial crisis happens ?
    The next recession is going to be brutal in most developed countries, a lot of governments still haven’t recovered from the last crisis a decade ago. In the UK the govt is still borrowing more than £100,000,000 a day despite all the complaints of “austerity” and poor services. With interest rates still on the floor the only lever left is going to be serious cuts in welfare spending, as were seen in Ireland in 2009.
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    DavidLDavidL Posts: 51,125

    DavidL said:

    This page contains a table of the target2 balances to March: http://sdw.ecb.europa.eu/reports.do?node=1000004859

    The Italians have a deficit of 442bn. The Germans a surplus of 923bn. Spain has a deficit of 381bn. The Netherlands a surplus of 112bn. These kinds of balances have really only developed since 2008. Before that the balances at the ECB for everyone were very small. This is how the ECB has kept the yields of Euro denominated debt low, even of countries with excess debt like Italy. It has kept the show on the road but is it really sustainable? That is the key to what happens next.

    So what happens when the next financial crisis happens ?
    Who knows? We are not in Kansas anymore. Once "respectable" governments like the UK can rig their gilt market by QE and buying up their own bonds in huge quantities default becomes almost impossible for a country or bloc with a lender of last resort and a vaguely credible currency.

    The populist parties have asked for £250bn of this debt to be "cancelled". That would require the cancellation of similar levels of credits, unless the ECB simply prints the lost money to pay the Germans etc.

    Alternatively, the Germans may seek to regain control of the ECB and impose some fiscal discipline thereby creating a default situation. They cannot be happy with this.
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    another_richardanother_richard Posts: 25,046
    Sandpit said:

    DavidL said:

    This page contains a table of the target2 balances to March: http://sdw.ecb.europa.eu/reports.do?node=1000004859

    The Italians have a deficit of 442bn. The Germans a surplus of 923bn. Spain has a deficit of 381bn. The Netherlands a surplus of 112bn. These kinds of balances have really only developed since 2008. Before that the balances at the ECB for everyone were very small. This is how the ECB has kept the yields of Euro denominated debt low, even of countries with excess debt like Italy. It has kept the show on the road but is it really sustainable? That is the key to what happens next.

    So what happens when the next financial crisis happens ?
    The next recession is going to be brutal in most developed countries, a lot of governments still haven’t recovered from the last crisis a decade ago. In the UK the govt is still borrowing more than £100,000,000 a day despite all the complaints of “austerity” and poor services. With interest rates still on the floor the only lever left is going to be serious cuts in welfare spending, as were seen in Ireland in 2009.
    I wonder which will be the last to be cut - welfare spending or political vanity projects.
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    SandpitSandpit Posts: 49,842
    edited May 2018

    Mr. Sandpit, Hamilton has yet to sign a new deal. May give him a little more leverage, but I think Ricciardo's worth signing even so. The pair of them would be the best on the grid.

    Agreed. The only move Lewis could countenance would be to Ferrari - so as to win the title with three different teams. Vettel ain’t going to let that happen (as much as we’d all love to see Prost v Senna II) so he’ll be staying put for the next couple of years at Mercedes. They’re just dotting the Is and crossing the Ts on Hamilton’s new contract now.

    I don’t think Lewis will care too much about who’s his team mate, he’s confident he can beat anyone - unlike Vettel, who was already beaten by Ricciardo when they were team mates before.
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    AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 23,754
    edited May 2018


    While Italy raises temperatures in Europe TMerkel is embroiled in an immigration scandal of her own making which now looks like its heading for a full parliamentary investigation

    synopsis

    -Angie opens borders in 2015
    - Immigration office overwhelmed by cases
    - Angie says wave them through delays are making us look bad
    - so they do and ignore all procedures
    - bit of bribery thrown in to make it all more scandalous

    https://www.welt.de/politik/deutschland/article176765501/BAMF-Krise-Das-Kanzleramt-traegt-die-Verantwortung.html

    Is Angie taking responsibility for any crimes committed by people who shouldn't have been allowed in ?
    lol

    what do you think ?

    her biggest exposure on this is vetting procedures were ignored. So as well as letting migrnts who were clearly economic through, there has be no checking of people with dubious pasts. Chuck in that officials were allegedly bribed to move people further up the queue and Merkel has just blown a huge hole in Europe's immigration controls. Presumably anyone waived through can now just turn up in an EU country of their choice.
    Laws are only for the little countries.

    Merkel follows in the tradition of German leaders that pieces of paper are worthless as soon as she decides they are.
    Next you'll be telling me nobody has been prosecuted for the diesel emissions falsification.

    Oh wait, US is prosecuting the head of AUDI US and is trying to get their hands on Martin Winterkorn former head of VW Group.

    Odd that in Europe which is VWs biggest market nobody is being pursued for100,000s of premature deaths.
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    SlackbladderSlackbladder Posts: 9,704
    On topic, it would be very strange that a leader increasing his seat numbers would be challenged for his position. Especially that labour far left see this as their chance to fundamentally change the country and that they wouldn't want to see this watered down.
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    Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 60,969
    Mr. Doethur, he might. But what are the alternatives?

    Ferrari is the main one. But Vettel has a say. And Hamilton won't be around for as long as Ricciardo.

    Mr. Sandpit, I agree with much of that (indeed, wrote much the same before seeing your comment), except that I think Hamilton's 'unlikely' comment is his sly way of trying to push Ricciardo away.

    Hamilton's very good. But Ricciardo is too. Hamilton undoubtedly enjoys his de facto number one status.
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    CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 59,573
    Ultimately, what I think the nationalists would like is independence – with the Barnett formula.

    http://www.these-islands.co.uk/publications/i298/colin_kidd_at_policy_exchange.aspx
This discussion has been closed.