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politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » Has David Davis just increased the chances of a 2018 election

SystemSystem Posts: 11,002
edited June 2018 in General

imagepoliticalbetting.com » Blog Archive » Has David Davis just increased the chances of a 2018 election or Corbyn becoming PM this year?

Excl: Revealed – David Davis’s new Brexit plan to give Northern Ireland joint UK/EU status and a border buffer zone;https://t.co/jCjUi6vMnD

Read the full story here


«13

Comments

  • GadflyGadfly Posts: 1,191
    First!
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 61,563
    Seconded.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 61,563
    All,this is happening when it appears that the world could be on the brink of a full blown trade war. We’ve seen just how stubborn EU negotiators can be - that they think they have principle on their side is neither here not there - but their interlocutor, and his administration, is every bit as incompetent as May, but considerably more ideologically driven.

    https://www.politico.com/story/2018/05/31/donald-trump-economic-advisers-trade-war-616110

    https://slate.com/business/2018/05/trump-and-nafta-negotiations-arent-going-well-according-to-this-justin-trudeau-story.html

    What price a WTO Brexit, should the WTO collapse....
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 61,563
    edited June 2018
    Meanwhile Congress, which strongly disapproves of the tariffs, and has the power to block them, sits on in hands, and protests...

    https://www.politico.com/story/2018/05/31/trump-tariffs-canada-mexico-republican-response-615479
    “This is dumb. Europe, Canada, and Mexico are not China, and you don’t treat allies the same way you treat opponents,” Sasse said. “‘Make America Great Again’ shouldn’t mean ‘Make America 1929 Again.’”
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 61,563
    Speaking of EU negotiators taking the piss...
    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2018/may/30/brexit-uk-may-get-poorer-access-than-israel-to-eu-science-scheme
    A draft copy of the so-called Horizon Europe document, seen by the Guardian, suggests that the UK is set to be offered less generous access than countries with associate status in the current programme, known as Horizon 2020, including Israel, Turkey, Albania and Ukraine....
  • nunuonenunuone Posts: 1,138
    Getting Dolly Parton into a thread about Brexit and the N. Irish border.

    I can't believe this site is free!
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 55,008
    The EU are being utter dicks about it. Deliberately.

    The UK is trying hard to find creative solutions that work. Good for DD.
  • nunuonenunuone Posts: 1,138
    You could have your pick of PM's but I could never govern again.....my premiership depends on you and whatever you decide to do, Arlene.....
  • SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 38,876

    The EU are being utter dicks about it. Deliberately.

    The UK is trying hard to find creative solutions that work. Good for DD.

    The UK is not looking for solutions. Cabinet ministers have yet to agree what they want.

  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 38,517
    Off-topic:

    Can I join the chorus (well, a few) recommendations of Andrew O'Hagan's excellent article on Grenfell Tower:

    https://www.lrb.co.uk/v40/n11/andrew-ohagan/the-tower

    It's long but brilliant essay, and well worth a read. Perversely, the politicians on the council who have been routine vilified come out looking better than all the national politicians, and many of the 'campaigners' who oppose them.

    I look forward to the results of the inquiry with interest; I guess many campaigners are practising the word 'whitewash'.
  • SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 38,876
    Londonderry would be in the buffer zone. That would be interesting. But clearly The Minister for Winging It is now just flailing around. He had years to work through the complexities involved in the UK leaving the EU, but he could not be bothered to do it. He just assumed German car manufacturers would sort it all out. Bless him.
  • SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 38,876
    nunuone said:

    You could have your pick of PM's but I could never govern again.....my premiership depends on you and whatever you decide to do, Arlene.....

    Wouldn’t Arlene be based in the buffer zone?

  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 31,715

    The EU are being utter dicks about it. Deliberately.

    The UK is trying hard to find creative solutions that work. Good for DD.

    The UK is not looking for solutions. Cabinet ministers have yet to agree what they want.

    Quite. And who started all this nonsense? It wasn’t the EU. Or the majority of British political leaders.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 55,008

    The EU are being utter dicks about it. Deliberately.

    The UK is trying hard to find creative solutions that work. Good for DD.

    The UK is not looking for solutions. Cabinet ministers have yet to agree what they want.

    I strongly disagree. It is.

    The EU is looking to use NI as a Trojan Horse to force the rest of the UK into a much closer alignment on the single market and customs union than it would otherwise have. So it isn’t really interested in creative solutions that might mitigate against that.

    That’s as plain as the nose on your face.
  • FF43FF43 Posts: 15,543
    To recap. A "solution " that will be instantly rejected by the EU and all the main parties in Northern Ireland, but which papers over the fissures in the cabinet.
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 31,715

    Off-topic:

    Can I join the chorus (well, a few) recommendations of Andrew O'Hagan's excellent article on Grenfell Tower:

    https://www.lrb.co.uk/v40/n11/andrew-ohagan/the-tower

    It's long but brilliant essay, and well worth a read. Perversely, the politicians on the council who have been routine vilified come out looking better than all the national politicians, and many of the 'campaigners' who oppose them.

    I look forward to the results of the inquiry with interest; I guess many campaigners are practising the word 'whitewash'.

    It’s inspired the Gen Sec of the FBU to get his retaliation in, if not first, then quickly. See https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2018/may/31/grenfell-firefighters-heroes-public-inquiry
  • SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 38,876

    The EU are being utter dicks about it. Deliberately.

    The UK is trying hard to find creative solutions that work. Good for DD.

    The UK is not looking for solutions. Cabinet ministers have yet to agree what they want.

    I strongly disagree. It is.

    The EU is looking to use NI as a Trojan Horse to force the rest of the UK into a much closer alignment on the single market and customs union than it would otherwise have. So it isn’t really interested in creative solutions that might mitigate against that.

    That’s as plain as the nose on your face.

    The EU wants what is best for the EU shock. Whoever could have predicted that? Meanwhile, the UK cabinet has still has to agree on what it believes is best for Britain.

  • RobDRobD Posts: 58,941
    FF43 said:

    To recap. A "solution " that will be instantly rejected by the EU and all the main parties in Northern Ireland, but which papers over the fissures in the cabinet.

    I'm not sure instantly rejecting any and all proposals for a solution is really the way forward.
  • rkrkrkrkrkrk Posts: 7,880
    FF43 said:

    To recap. A "solution " that will be instantly rejected by the EU and all the main parties in Northern Ireland, but which papers over the fissures in the cabinet.

    What's the logic for the EU instantly throwing it out?
    I've no idea whether it's possible - but how does it conflict with previously stated Irish/EU desires?
  • RogerRoger Posts: 18,891
    edited June 2018
    It's Donald Trump taking the piss for no other reason than he can. He's having fun and why not? He's the clown son of a multi billionaire who has tired of everything else and is now enjoying seeing how far he can make the world gyrate as he pulls the strings.

    He's loving it! It reminds me of the film 'Rollerball'. Life had become so shallow and meaningless that they decided to make the national sport more exciting. They drop all the rules. Ironically it was shot in '75 but it was set in the future. 2018 to be exact!
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 59,540
    TSE better be wary of describing Mrs May as a 'Poundland Gordon Brown..'

    https://www.independent.co.uk/travel/news-and-advice/thameslink-poundland-twitter-chocolate-legal-action-trains-rail-operator-service-a8377066.html

    "Aside from the breach of our trademark, we think you’re taking the chocolate biscuit. We served 8 million shoppers last week and didn’t have to close any stores due to leaves on the roof, the wrong kind of rain, or a shortage of managers. We think we have a pretty good idea about what great customer service is compared to to most rail companies. But if we ever fall short, perhaps we’ll describe ourselves as a bit ThamesLink.”
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 49,614
    edited June 2018
    RobD said:

    FF43 said:

    To recap. A "solution " that will be instantly rejected by the EU and all the main parties in Northern Ireland, but which papers over the fissures in the cabinet.

    I'm not sure instantly rejecting any and all proposals for a solution is really the way forward.
    It would be interesting to see some polling on the binary option of a BINO deal vs WTO terms, although it would require carefully thought out wording to explain those two options in sufficiently neutral language.

    I also wonder if Trump gunning for the EU but being outwardly friendly to the UK might influence both the UK - EU talks and public opinion in favour of WTO terms, in order to avoid US tariffs against the EU?
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 55,008

    The EU are being utter dicks about it. Deliberately.

    The UK is trying hard to find creative solutions that work. Good for DD.

    The UK is not looking for solutions. Cabinet ministers have yet to agree what they want.

    I strongly disagree. It is.

    The EU is looking to use NI as a Trojan Horse to force the rest of the UK into a much closer alignment on the single market and customs union than it would otherwise have. So it isn’t really interested in creative solutions that might mitigate against that.

    That’s as plain as the nose on your face.

    The EU wants what is best for the EU shock. Whoever could have predicted that?

    Yep, so you agree with me then.

    Glad we got that straight.
  • SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 38,876

    The EU are being utter dicks about it. Deliberately.

    The UK is trying hard to find creative solutions that work. Good for DD.

    The UK is not looking for solutions. Cabinet ministers have yet to agree what they want.

    I strongly disagree. It is.

    The EU is looking to use NI as a Trojan Horse to force the rest of the UK into a much closer alignment on the single market and customs union than it would otherwise have. So it isn’t really interested in creative solutions that might mitigate against that.

    That’s as plain as the nose on your face.

    The EU wants what is best for the EU shock. Whoever could have predicted that?

    Yep, so you agree with me then.

    Glad we got that straight.

    Of course the EU wants what is best for the EU. Who could possibly disagree? The problem is that the negotiation is totally unequal. We need them a whole lot more than they need us. Why any of this is a surprise to anyone is beyond me. But it’s something the UK is going to have to get used to in the international trade arena.

  • logical_songlogical_song Posts: 9,669

    The EU are being utter dicks about it. Deliberately.

    The UK is trying hard to find creative solutions that work. Good for DD.

    The trouble is it's not a 'solution' and it won't 'work'.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 61,563

    The EU are being utter dicks about it. Deliberately.

    The UK is trying hard to find creative solutions that work. Good for DD.

    The UK is not looking for solutions. Cabinet ministers have yet to agree what they want.

    The UK is looking for solutions, and Cabinet ministers have yet to agree on what they want.
    Sadly for the rest of us, the EU has been using this iterative process to steadily close down our options... and we just keep on with the same process.
  • MortimerMortimer Posts: 13,921

    The EU are being utter dicks about it. Deliberately.

    The UK is trying hard to find creative solutions that work. Good for DD.

    The UK is not looking for solutions. Cabinet ministers have yet to agree what they want.

    I strongly disagree. It is.

    The EU is looking to use NI as a Trojan Horse to force the rest of the UK into a much closer alignment on the single market and customs union than it would otherwise have. So it isn’t really interested in creative solutions that might mitigate against that.

    That’s as plain as the nose on your face.

    The EU wants what is best for the EU shock. Whoever could have predicted that?

    Yep, so you agree with me then.

    Glad we got that straight.

    Of course the EU wants what is best for the EU. Who could possibly disagree? The problem is that the negotiation is totally unequal. We need them a whole lot more than they need us. Why any of this is a surprise to anyone is beyond me. But it’s something the UK is going to have to get used to in the international trade arena.

    It’s give and take. But if the EU don’t realise how much they need to access London capital markets, then they really are heading for a full blown economic crisis soon.
  • AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 30,340
    Doesn’t that make the customs union vote more difficult for the government? The DUP have no particular objection to a customs union, but they will to this proposal. So they presumably will be considered backing the opposition in that vote.
  • AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 30,340
    Are Leavers now complaining how beastly the EU is being? But they assured us all that the negotiations would be utterly straightforward before the referendum vote, and got rather shirty with anyone who suggested otherwise.
  • SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 38,876
    Farage defending US sanctions imposed on the UK. Lawson applying for permanent French residence. Redwood advising investors to get out of the UK. The patriotism of right wing Brexiteers is so noble, good and true.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 55,008

    The EU are being utter dicks about it. Deliberately.

    The UK is trying hard to find creative solutions that work. Good for DD.

    The UK is not looking for solutions. Cabinet ministers have yet to agree what they want.

    I strongly disagree. It is.

    The EU is looking to use NI as a Trojan Horse to force the rest of the UK into a much closer alignment on the single market and customs union than it would otherwise have. So it isn’t really interested in creative solutions that might mitigate against that.

    That’s as plain as the nose on your face.

    The EU wants what is best for the EU shock. Whoever could have predicted that?

    Yep, so you agree with me then.

    Glad we got that straight.

    Of course the EU wants what is best for the EU. Who could possibly disagree? The problem is that the negotiation is totally unequal. We need them a whole lot more than they need us. Why any of this is a surprise to anyone is beyond me. But it’s something the UK is going to have to get used to in the international trade arena.

    Yaaaaaaaaaaaawwwwnn.
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 31,715

    TSE better be wary of describing Mrs May as a 'Poundland Gordon Brown..'

    https://www.independent.co.uk/travel/news-and-advice/thameslink-poundland-twitter-chocolate-legal-action-trains-rail-operator-service-a8377066.html

    "Aside from the breach of our trademark, we think you’re taking the chocolate biscuit. We served 8 million shoppers last week and didn’t have to close any stores due to leaves on the roof, the wrong kind of rain, or a shortage of managers. We think we have a pretty good idea about what great customer service is compared to to most rail companies. But if we ever fall short, perhaps we’ll describe ourselves as a bit ThamesLink.”

    It was one of the good ones, wasn’t it! You missed out the last line though; 'if you don’t want to hear from our extremely twitchy legal team we suggest you remove yoyur tweet.’

    Did suggest that the Retail Director has a sense of humour.
  • SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 38,876

    The EU are being utter dicks about it. Deliberately.

    The UK is trying hard to find creative solutions that work. Good for DD.

    The UK is not looking for solutions. Cabinet ministers have yet to agree what they want.

    I strongly disagree. It is.

    The EU is looking to use NI as a Trojan Horse to force the rest of the UK into a much closer alignment on the single market and customs union than it would otherwise have. So it isn’t really interested in creative solutions that might mitigate against that.

    That’s as plain as the nose on your face.

    The EU wants what is best for the EU shock. Whoever could have predicted that?

    Yep, so you agree with me then.

    Glad we got that straight.

    Of course the EU wants what is best for the EU. Who could possibly disagree? The problem is that the negotiation is totally unequal. We need them a whole lot more than they need us. Why any of this is a surprise to anyone is beyond me. But it’s something the UK is going to have to get used to in the international trade arena.

    Yaaaaaaaaaaaawwwwnn.

    Yep - it’s this lack of interest in reality on the Brexit right that has got us to into this unfortunate position.

  • SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 38,876
    Mortimer said:

    The EU are being utter dicks about it. Deliberately.

    The UK is trying hard to find creative solutions that work. Good for DD.

    The UK is not looking for solutions. Cabinet ministers have yet to agree what they want.

    I strongly disagree. It is.

    The EU is looking to use NI as a Trojan Horse to force the rest of the UK into a much closer alignment on the single market and customs union than it would otherwise have. So it isn’t really interested in creative solutions that might mitigate against that.

    That’s as plain as the nose on your face.

    The EU wants what is best for the EU shock. Whoever could have predicted that?

    Yep, so you agree with me then.

    Glad we got that straight.

    Of course the EU wants what is best for the EU. Who could possibly disagree? The problem is that the negotiation is totally unequal. We need them a whole lot more than they need us. Why any of this is a surprise to anyone is beyond me. But it’s something the UK is going to have to get used to in the international trade arena.

    It’s give and take. But if the EU don’t realise how much they need to access London capital markets, then they really are heading for a full blown economic crisis soon.

    Possibly - but it’s one that will engulf us, too.

  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 31,715

    Farage defending US sanctions imposed on the UK. Lawson applying for permanent French residence. Redwood advising investors to get out of the UK. The patriotism of right wing Brexiteers is so noble, good and true.

    They’ll all have blue passports asap, though!
  • RogerRoger Posts: 18,891
    There is a madman running the US and the only world entity with the clout and muscle to stand up to him is the EU which we have just left. We are alone and up shit creek without a paddle.


    This is what happens when you allow the lunatics to take over the asylum even for a day.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 44,052
    nunuone said:

    Getting Dolly Parton into a thread about Brexit and the N. Irish border.

    I can't believe this site is free!

    Ireland's in the stream,
    That is what we are
    no border inbetween,
    How can we be wrong?

  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 55,008

    The EU are being utter dicks about it. Deliberately.

    The UK is trying hard to find creative solutions that work. Good for DD.

    The UK is not looking for solutions. Cabinet ministers have yet to agree what they want.

    I strongly disagree. It is.

    The EU is looking to use NI as a Trojan Horse to force the rest of the UK into a much closer alignment on the single market and customs union than it would otherwise have. So it isn’t really interested in creative solutions that might mitigate against that.

    That’s as plain as the nose on your face.

    The EU wants what is best for the EU shock. Whoever could have predicted that?

    Yep, so you agree with me then.

    Glad we got that straight.

    Of course the EU wants what is best for the EU. Who could possibly disagree? The problem is that the negotiation is totally unequal. We need them a whole lot more than they need us. Why any of this is a surprise to anyone is beyond me. But it’s something the UK is going to have to get used to in the international trade arena.

    Yaaaaaaaaaaaawwwwnn.

    Yep - it’s this lack of interest in reality on the Brexit right that has got us to into this unfortunate position.

    No. It’s the lack of interest in your tired repetition of the same points on here, again and again, day after day. This must be the 823rd time you’ve post this.

    At least you’ve dialled back on posting on here daily about Theresa May’s stunning mediocrity. That was your ‘thing’ about a year ago.
  • SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 38,876

    The EU are being utter dicks about it. Deliberately.

    The UK is trying hard to find creative solutions that work. Good for DD.

    The UK is not looking for solutions. Cabinet ministers have yet to agree what they want.

    I strongly disagree. It is.

    The EU is looking to use NI as a Trojan Horse to force the rest of the UK into a much closer alignment on the single market and customs union than it would otherwise have. So it isn’t really interested in creative solutions that might mitigate against that.

    That’s as plain as the nose on your face.

    The EU wants what is best for the EU shock. Whoever could have predicted that?

    Yep, so you agree with me then.

    Glad we got that straight.

    Of course the EU wants what is best for the EU. Who could possibly disagree? The problem is that the negotiation is totally unequal. We need them a whole lot more than they need us. Why any of this is a surprise to anyone is beyond me. But it’s something the UK is going to have to get used to in the international trade arena.

    Yaaaaaaaaaaaawwwwnn.

    Yep - it’s this lack of interest in reality on the Brexit right that has got us to into this unfortunate position.

    No. It’s the lack of interest in your tired repetition of the same points on here, again and again, day after day. This must be the 823rd time you’ve post this.

    At least you’ve dialled back on posting on here daily about Theresa May’s stunning mediocrity. That was your ‘thing’ about a year ago.

    May remains stunningly mediocre. You continue to blame the EU for doing what is best for the EU. Some things never change.

  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 60,933
    Good morning, everyone.
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 31,715
    The Brexiteers anthem is “There is a Promised Land, far, far away'
  • RobDRobD Posts: 58,941
    Roger said:

    There is a madman running the US and the only world entity with the clout and muscle to stand up to him is the EU which we have just left. We are alone and up shit creek without a paddle.


    This is what happens when you allow the lunatics to take over the asylum even for a day.

    So much for standing up to him - he went ahead with his tariff plan despite their complaints.
  • SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 38,876
    RobD said:

    Roger said:

    There is a madman running the US and the only world entity with the clout and muscle to stand up to him is the EU which we have just left. We are alone and up shit creek without a paddle.


    This is what happens when you allow the lunatics to take over the asylum even for a day.

    So much for standing up to him - he went ahead with his tariff plan despite their complaints.

    We’re in a stand-off now, precisely because no-one is going to back down.

  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 44,052

    The EU are being utter dicks about it. Deliberately.

    The UK is trying hard to find creative solutions that work. Good for DD.

    The UK is not looking for solutions. Cabinet ministers have yet to agree what they want.

    I strongly disagree. It is.

    The EU is looking to use NI as a Trojan Horse to force the rest of the UK into a much closer alignment on the single market and customs union than it would otherwise have. So it isn’t really interested in creative solutions that might mitigate against that.

    That’s as plain as the nose on your face.

    The EU wants what is best for the EU shock. Whoever could have predicted that?

    Yep, so you agree with me then.

    Glad we got that straight.

    Of course the EU wants what is best for the EU. Who could possibly disagree? The problem is that the negotiation is totally unequal. We need them a whole lot more than they need us. Why any of this is a surprise to anyone is beyond me. But it’s something the UK is going to have to get used to in the international trade arena.

    Yaaaaaaaaaaaawwwwnn.

    Yep - it’s this lack of interest in reality on the Brexit right that has got us to into this unfortunate position.

    No. It’s the lack of interest in your tired repetition of the same points on here, again and again, day after day. This must be the 823rd time you’ve post this.

    At least you’ve dialled back on posting on here daily about Theresa May’s stunning mediocrity. That was your ‘thing’ about a year ago.

    May remains stunningly mediocre. You continue to blame the EU for doing what is best for the EU. Some things never change.

    It is hard to know whether May is just an indecisive Gordon Brown, or whether she is deliberately running down the clock so the Brexiteers have to rubber stamp her BINO plan.

    My money is on the first. 10 months to go...
  • RobDRobD Posts: 58,941

    RobD said:

    Roger said:

    There is a madman running the US and the only world entity with the clout and muscle to stand up to him is the EU which we have just left. We are alone and up shit creek without a paddle.


    This is what happens when you allow the lunatics to take over the asylum even for a day.

    So much for standing up to him - he went ahead with his tariff plan despite their complaints.

    We’re in a stand-off now, precisely because no-one is going to back down.

    Not really a stand off if one side has gone ahead with what they were threatening to do.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 44,052

    RobD said:

    Roger said:

    There is a madman running the US and the only world entity with the clout and muscle to stand up to him is the EU which we have just left. We are alone and up shit creek without a paddle.


    This is what happens when you allow the lunatics to take over the asylum even for a day.

    So much for standing up to him - he went ahead with his tariff plan despite their complaints.

    We’re in a stand-off now, precisely because no-one is going to back down.

    Ah well. Cranberry juice goes up in price I suppose.

    I can get by without Jack Daniels, Harley Davidson and Tropicana juice though.

  • SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 38,876
    RobD said:

    RobD said:

    Roger said:

    There is a madman running the US and the only world entity with the clout and muscle to stand up to him is the EU which we have just left. We are alone and up shit creek without a paddle.


    This is what happens when you allow the lunatics to take over the asylum even for a day.

    So much for standing up to him - he went ahead with his tariff plan despite their complaints.

    We’re in a stand-off now, precisely because no-one is going to back down.

    Not really a stand off if one side has gone ahead with what they were threatening to do.

    And the other side has retaliated - just as it said it would.

  • DecrepitJohnLDecrepitJohnL Posts: 13,300

    Farage defending US sanctions imposed on the UK. Lawson applying for permanent French residence. Redwood advising investors to get out of the UK. The patriotism of right wing Brexiteers is so noble, good and true.

    They’ll all have blue passports asap, though!
    Not asap. Blue passports will only be issued on renewal after October 2019. But please do not mock the government's one Brexit success.
    https://www.gov.uk/government/news/blue-uk-passport-to-return-after-eu-exit

    It is a shame these new passports will add to our trade and balance of payments deficits but to paraphrase Dick Cheney, George Osborne showed that deficits only matter when Labour is in power. Lord Lawson will be able to keep an eye on the passport factory from his new home in France.
  • SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 38,876
    Foxy said:

    The EU are being utter dicks about it. Deliberately.

    The UK is trying hard to find creative solutions that work. Good for DD.

    The UK is not looking for solutions. Cabinet ministers have yet to agree what they want.

    I strongly disagree. It is.

    The EU is looking to use NI as a Trojan Horse to force the rest of the UK into a much closer alignment on the single market and customs union than it would otherwise have. So it isn’t really interested in creative solutions that might mitigate against that.

    That’s as plain as the nose on your face.

    The EU wants what is best for the EU shock. Whoever could have predicted that?

    Yep, so you agree with me then.

    Glad we got that straight.

    Of course the EU wants what is best for the EU. Who could possibly disagree? The problem is that the negotiation is totally unequal. We need them a whole lot more than they need us. Why any of this is a surprise to anyone is beyond me. But it’s something the UK is going to have to get used to in the international trade arena.

    Yaaaaaaaaaaaawwwwnn.

    Yep - it’s this lack of interest in reality on the Brexit right that has got us to into this unfortunate position.

    No. It’s the lack of interest in your tired repetition of the same points on here, again and again, day after day. This must be the 823rd time you’ve post this.

    At least you’ve dialled back on posting on here daily about Theresa May’s stunning mediocrity. That was your ‘thing’ about a year ago.

    May remains stunningly mediocre. You continue to blame the EU for doing what is best for the EU. Some things never change.

    It is hard to know whether May is just an indecisive Gordon Brown, or whether she is deliberately running down the clock so the Brexiteers have to rubber stamp her BINO plan.

    My money is on the first. 10 months to go...

    I’m on one, too; but that will lead to two.

  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 44,052
    RobD said:

    RobD said:

    Roger said:

    There is a madman running the US and the only world entity with the clout and muscle to stand up to him is the EU which we have just left. We are alone and up shit creek without a paddle.


    This is what happens when you allow the lunatics to take over the asylum even for a day.

    So much for standing up to him - he went ahead with his tariff plan despite their complaints.

    We’re in a stand-off now, precisely because no-one is going to back down.

    Not really a stand off if one side has gone ahead with what they were threatening to do.
    Consistency has never been a strong feature of Trumpism. He changes his mind depending on the last person that he has spoken to. Take the North Korea talks.

    He has the attention span of a toddler, and fewer social graces.

  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 61,563
    RobD said:

    RobD said:

    Roger said:

    There is a madman running the US and the only world entity with the clout and muscle to stand up to him is the EU which we have just left. We are alone and up shit creek without a paddle.


    This is what happens when you allow the lunatics to take over the asylum even for a day.

    So much for standing up to him - he went ahead with his tariff plan despite their complaints.

    We’re in a stand-off now, precisely because no-one is going to back down.

    Not really a stand off if one side has gone ahead with what they were threatening to do.
    It is precisely a standoff when the US refuses trade talks unless its interlocutors agree to its preconditions (see the Trudeau story which I posted earlier).
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 55,008

    The EU are being utter dicks about it. Deliberately.

    The UK is trying hard to find creative solutions that work. Good for DD.

    The UK is not looking for solutions. Cabinet ministers have yet to agree what they want.

    I strongly disagree. It is.

    The EU is looking to use NI as a Trojan Horse to force the rest of the UK into a much closer alignment on the single market and customs union than it would otherwise have. So it isn’t really interested in creative solutions that might mitigate against that.

    That’s as plain as the nose on your face.

    The EU wants what is best for the EU shock. Whoever could have predicted that?

    Yep, so you agree with me then.

    Glad we got that straight.

    Of course the EU wants what is best for the EU. Who could possibly disagree? The problem is that the negotiation is totally unequal. We need them a whole lot more than they need us. Why any of this is a surprise to anyone is beyond me. But it’s something the UK is going to have to get used to in the international trade arena.

    Yaaaaaaaaaaaawwwwnn.

    Yep - it’s this lack of interest in reality on the Brexit right that has got us to into this unfortunate position.

    No. It’s the lack of interest in your tired repetition of the same points on here, again and again, day after day. This must be the 823rd time you’ve post this.

    At least you’ve dialled back on posting on here daily about Theresa May’s stunning mediocrity. That was your ‘thing’ about a year ago.

    May remains stunningly mediocre. You continue to blame the EU for doing what is best for the EU. Some things never change.

    Nope. I just have more balance in my views.

    For you, the EU can do no wrong and the fault always lies with the Tory Government regardless of what it is.

    There are stronger critics of Brexit on here than you who manage to exhibit a level of dispassionate analysis from time to time, and are able to criticise Brussels when it is warranted.

    Sadly, you are not one of them, and have chosen instead to be a scribing ScottP.
  • RogerRoger Posts: 18,891
    RobD said:

    Roger said:

    There is a madman running the US and the only world entity with the clout and muscle to stand up to him is the EU which we have just left. We are alone and up shit creek without a paddle.


    This is what happens when you allow the lunatics to take over the asylum even for a day.

    So much for standing up to him - he went ahead with his tariff plan despite their complaints.
    The EU can and will stand up to him . The UK alone can't. From being a big fish in a very large pond we've become a goldfish flapping on the carpet.
  • SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 38,876

    The EU are being utter dicks about it. Deliberately.

    The UK is trying hard to find creative solutions that work. Good for DD.

    The UK is not looking for solutions. Cabinet ministers have yet to agree what they want.

    I strongly disagree. It is.

    The EU is looking to use NI as a Trojan Horse to force the rest of the UK into a much closer alignment on the single market and customs union than it would otherwise have. So it isn’t really interested in creative solutions that might mitigate against that.

    That’s as plain as the nose on your face.

    The EU wants what is best for the EU shock. Whoever could have predicted that?

    Yep, so you agree with me then.

    Glad we got that straight.

    Of course the EU wants what is best for the EU. Who could possibly disagree? The problem is that the negotiation is totally unequal. We need them a whole lot more than they need us. Why any of this is a surprise to anyone is beyond me. But it’s something the UK is going to have to get used to in the international trade arena.

    Yaaaaaaaaaaaawwwwnn.

    Yep - it’s this lack of interest in reality on the Brexit right that has got us to into this unfortunate position.

    No. It’s the lack of interest in your tired repetition of the same points on here, again and again, day after day. This must be the 823rd time you’ve post this.

    At least you’ve dialled back on posting on here daily about Theresa May’s stunning mediocrity. That was your ‘thing’ about a year ago.

    May remains stunningly mediocre. You continue to blame the EU for doing what is best for the EU. Some things never change.

    Nope. I just have more balance in my views.

    For you, the EU can do no wrong and the fault always lies with the Tory Government regardless of what it is.

    There are stronger critics of Brexit on here than you who manage to exhibit a level of dispassionate analysis from time to time, and are able to criticise Brussels when it is warranted.

    Sadly, you are not one of them, and have chosen instead to be a scribing ScottP.

    Yes, you are renowned for your balanced views!! I get that you cannot argue against the points I make and that this frustrates you. If playing the man not the ball helps you, so be it.

  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 38,517

    Off-topic:

    Can I join the chorus (well, a few) recommendations of Andrew O'Hagan's excellent article on Grenfell Tower:

    https://www.lrb.co.uk/v40/n11/andrew-ohagan/the-tower

    It's long but brilliant essay, and well worth a read. Perversely, the politicians on the council who have been routine vilified come out looking better than all the national politicians, and many of the 'campaigners' who oppose them.

    I look forward to the results of the inquiry with interest; I guess many campaigners are practising the word 'whitewash'.

    It’s inspired the Gen Sec of the FBU to get his retaliation in, if not first, then quickly. See https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2018/may/31/grenfell-firefighters-heroes-public-inquiry
    Hmmm. I'm far from sure the tone of righteous indignation is the correct one to take, and might rather backfire if the inquiry backs up O'Hagan and others ...
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 40,950

    Off-topic:

    Can I join the chorus (well, a few) recommendations of Andrew O'Hagan's excellent article on Grenfell Tower:

    https://www.lrb.co.uk/v40/n11/andrew-ohagan/the-tower

    It's long but brilliant essay, and well worth a read. Perversely, the politicians on the council who have been routine vilified come out looking better than all the national politicians, and many of the 'campaigners' who oppose them.

    I look forward to the results of the inquiry with interest; I guess many campaigners are practising the word 'whitewash'.

    It’s inspired the Gen Sec of the FBU to get his retaliation in, if not first, then quickly. See https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2018/may/31/grenfell-firefighters-heroes-public-inquiry
    And not allowing comments, as of the last time I looked.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 40,950
    Elsewhere on PB I see that PB Brexiters are astounded that the EU is negotiating for its own best interest.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 49,614
    edited June 2018
    So it looks like Italy has a new government, and Mr Pulpstar’s great value 1/10 bet came off.

    So now what happens, from the characters involved it’s unlikely the new government is going to sing along to Mrs Merkel’s tune?
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 31,715
    Foxy said:

    RobD said:

    Roger said:

    There is a madman running the US and the only world entity with the clout and muscle to stand up to him is the EU which we have just left. We are alone and up shit creek without a paddle.


    This is what happens when you allow the lunatics to take over the asylum even for a day.

    So much for standing up to him - he went ahead with his tariff plan despite their complaints.

    We’re in a stand-off now, precisely because no-one is going to back down.

    Ah well. Cranberry juice goes up in price I suppose.

    I can get by without Jack Daniels, Harley Davidson and Tropicana juice though.

    My grandson, named Jack Daniel (no, I’ve no idea why my daughter and son in law chose those) has a large collection of the various types of Jack Daniel whiskeys. Undrunk. I suspect they’ve just gone up in value!
  • SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 38,876
    TOPPING said:

    Elsewhere on PB I see that PB Brexiters are astounded that the EU is negotiating for its own best interest.

    This demonstrates just how malovolent the EU is, of course. They have forced the government into not being able to agree a negotiating position or a solution to the Irish border problem the Brexiteers repeatedly told us did not exist.

  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 50,761
    I am all for innovative solutions to NI and this looks interesting. But not having the DUP fully engaged at every step would be a serious mistake that the government has already made and should have learned from. Parliamentary arithmetic and a failed election campaign have consequences that the government has to live within.
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 25,164

    Off-topic:

    Can I join the chorus (well, a few) recommendations of Andrew O'Hagan's excellent article on Grenfell Tower:

    https://www.lrb.co.uk/v40/n11/andrew-ohagan/the-tower

    It's long but brilliant essay, and well worth a read. Perversely, the politicians on the council who have been routine vilified come out looking better than all the national politicians, and many of the 'campaigners' who oppose them.

    I look forward to the results of the inquiry with interest; I guess many campaigners are practising the word 'whitewash'.

    It’s inspired the Gen Sec of the FBU to get his retaliation in, if not first, then quickly. See https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2018/may/31/grenfell-firefighters-heroes-public-inquiry
    Hmmm. I'm far from sure the tone of righteous indignation is the correct one to take, and might rather backfire if the inquiry backs up O'Hagan and others ...
    Both these writers have prejudged the evidence due to be heard at the public inquiry.

    The same could be said of Panorama and the insulation company.
  • DecrepitJohnLDecrepitJohnL Posts: 13,300

    Off-topic:

    Can I join the chorus (well, a few) recommendations of Andrew O'Hagan's excellent article on Grenfell Tower:

    https://www.lrb.co.uk/v40/n11/andrew-ohagan/the-tower

    It's long but brilliant essay, and well worth a read. Perversely, the politicians on the council who have been routine vilified come out looking better than all the national politicians, and many of the 'campaigners' who oppose them.

    I look forward to the results of the inquiry with interest; I guess many campaigners are practising the word 'whitewash'.

    It’s inspired the Gen Sec of the FBU to get his retaliation in, if not first, then quickly. See https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2018/may/31/grenfell-firefighters-heroes-public-inquiry
    Hmmm. I'm far from sure the tone of righteous indignation is the correct one to take, and might rather backfire if the inquiry backs up O'Hagan and others ...
    That point is surely covered by: Tower blocks are designed so if a fire breaks out in a property, the blaze can be held there for a length of time, allowing fire crews to respond. This is called compartmentation. It clearly failed at Grenfell Tower. The “stay put” policy may well have to be changed, particularly after this failure of compartmentation at Grenfell.

    What is slightly odd is that with tower blocks all over the capital, not much has been made of the lack of equipment. Maybe the politicians can't work out which party's fault this is.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 50,761
    Foxy said:

    The EU are being utter dicks about it. Deliberately.

    The UK is trying hard to find creative solutions that work. Good for DD.

    The UK is not looking for solutions. Cabinet ministers have yet to agree what they want.

    I strongly disagree. It is.

    The EU is looking to use NI as a Trojan Horse to force the rest of the UK into a much closer alignment on the single market and customs union than it would otherwise have. So it isn’t really interested in creative solutions that might mitigate against that.

    That’s as plain as the nose on your face.

    The EU wants what is best for the EU shock. Whoever could have predicted that?

    Yep, so you agree with me then.

    Glad we got that straight.

    Of course the EU wants what is best for the EU. Who could possibly disagree? The problem is that the negotiation is totally unequal. We need them a whole lot more than they need us. Why any of this is a surprise to anyone is beyond me. But it’s something the UK is going to have to get used to in the international trade arena.

    Yaaaaaaaaaaaawwwwnn.

    Yep - it’s this lack of interest in reality on the Brexit right that has got us to into this unfortunate position.

    No. It’s the lack of interest in your tired repetition of the same points on here, again and again, day after day. This must be the 823rd time you’ve post this.

    At least you’ve dialled back on posting on here daily about Theresa May’s stunning mediocrity. That was your ‘thing’ about a year ago.

    May remains stunningly mediocre. You continue to blame the EU for doing what is best for the EU. Some things never change.

    It is hard to know whether May is just an indecisive Gordon Brown, or whether she is deliberately running down the clock so the Brexiteers have to rubber stamp her BINO plan.

    My money is on the first. 10 months to go...
    Surely an indecisive Gordon Brown is just a tautology?
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 31,273
    Mortimer said:

    The EU are being utter dicks about it. Deliberately.

    The UK is trying hard to find creative solutions that work. Good for DD.

    The UK is not looking for solutions. Cabinet ministers have yet to agree what they want.

    I strongly disagree. It is.

    The EU is looking to use NI as a Trojan Horse to force the rest of the UK into a much closer alignment on the single market and customs union than it would otherwise have. So it isn’t really interested in creative solutions that might mitigate against that.

    That’s as plain as the nose on your face.

    The EU wants what is best for the EU shock. Whoever could have predicted that?

    Yep, so you agree with me then.

    Glad we got that straight.

    Of course the EU wants what is best for the EU. Who could possibly disagree? The problem is that the negotiation is totally unequal. We need them a whole lot more than they need us. Why any of this is a surprise to anyone is beyond me. But it’s something the UK is going to have to get used to in the international trade arena.

    It’s give and take. But if the EU don’t realise how much they need to access London capital markets, then they really are heading for a full blown economic crisis soon.
    "They need us more than we need them" eh?
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 91,392
    Whether or not the EU is being reasonable and harming itself with its truculent behaviour I don't quite understand what the point of agreeing an approach they've already rejected is. I guess if we are going to go harder we need to demonstrate we made the attempt to find a workaround first?
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 49,614

    Off-topic:

    Can I join the chorus (well, a few) recommendations of Andrew O'Hagan's excellent article on Grenfell Tower:

    https://www.lrb.co.uk/v40/n11/andrew-ohagan/the-tower

    It's long but brilliant essay, and well worth a read. Perversely, the politicians on the council who have been routine vilified come out looking better than all the national politicians, and many of the 'campaigners' who oppose them.

    I look forward to the results of the inquiry with interest; I guess many campaigners are practising the word 'whitewash'.

    It’s inspired the Gen Sec of the FBU to get his retaliation in, if not first, then quickly. See https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2018/may/31/grenfell-firefighters-heroes-public-inquiry
    Hmmm. I'm far from sure the tone of righteous indignation is the correct one to take, and might rather backfire if the inquiry backs up O'Hagan and others ...
    That point is surely covered by: Tower blocks are designed so if a fire breaks out in a property, the blaze can be held there for a length of time, allowing fire crews to respond. This is called compartmentation. It clearly failed at Grenfell Tower. The “stay put” policy may well have to be changed, particularly after this failure of compartmentation at Grenfell.

    What is slightly odd is that with tower blocks all over the capital, not much has been made of the lack of equipment. Maybe the politicians can't work out which party's fault this is.
    A strategy of containment may well be appropriate when the building is entirely constructed of bricks and has internal fire resistant walls and doors, but it’s completely inappropriate for an externally cladded building where fire can spread up the outside of the structure.

    I still think the enquiry is working in the wrong way, there should be first a factual investigation working in private to produce a report (as happens with transport accidents) followed by the public enquiry and inquests. The danger with the approach taken here is that certain pertinent facts may not come out, as people are more interested in the political and legal ramifications of this incident than they are in preventing a recurrence. There’s really good reasons why evidence given to the AAIB or RAIB can’t be used in a prosecution.
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 31,273
    DD's back-up plan for NI is apparently that it will alternate between the EU and UK. On Mondays, Wednesdays and Fridays NI will be part of the UK; Tuesdays, Thursdays and Saturdays it will be in the UK. Sundays could be a problem.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 49,614
    kle4 said:

    Whether or not the EU is being reasonable and harming itself with its truculent behaviour I don't quite understand what the point of agreeing an approach they've already rejected is. I guess if we are going to go harder we need to demonstrate we made the attempt to find a workaround first?

    It’s clear that the EU are going to reject anything that doesn’t involve ongoing regulatory alignment and financial payments for the UK, they see it as in their best intestest to offer only a BINO v WTO choice at the last possible minute, rather than working towards a mutually beneficial agreement.

    We’re best off as far away as possible from such an organisation.
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 31,273
    TOPPING said:

    Off-topic:

    Can I join the chorus (well, a few) recommendations of Andrew O'Hagan's excellent article on Grenfell Tower:

    https://www.lrb.co.uk/v40/n11/andrew-ohagan/the-tower

    It's long but brilliant essay, and well worth a read. Perversely, the politicians on the council who have been routine vilified come out looking better than all the national politicians, and many of the 'campaigners' who oppose them.

    I look forward to the results of the inquiry with interest; I guess many campaigners are practising the word 'whitewash'.

    It’s inspired the Gen Sec of the FBU to get his retaliation in, if not first, then quickly. See https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2018/may/31/grenfell-firefighters-heroes-public-inquiry
    And not allowing comments, as of the last time I looked.
    Bit ironic given it's in the 'commentisfree' section.
  • FF43FF43 Posts: 15,543
    TOPPING said:

    Elsewhere on PB I see that PB Brexiters are astounded that the EU is negotiating for its own best interest.

    The EU gives us what we want. See , it was all Project Fear. Glad we Brexited.
    The EU rejects our demands. Who would want to be part of such an unreasonable organisation. Glad we Brexited.

    We win every each way.
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 31,715
    DavidL said:

    Foxy said:

    The EU are being utter dicks about it. Deliberately.

    The UK is trying hard to find creative solutions that work. Good for DD.

    The UK is not looking for solutions. Cabinet ministers have yet to agree what they want.

    I strongly disagree. It is.

    The EU is looking to use NI as a Trojan Horse to force the rest of the UK into a much closer alignment on the single market and customs union than it would otherwise have. So it isn’t really interested in creative solutions that might mitigate against that.

    That’s as plain as the nose on your face.

    The EU wants what is best for the EU shock. Whoever could have predicted that?

    Yep, so you agree with me then.

    Glad we got that straight.

    Yaaaaaaaaaaaawwwwnn.

    Yep - it’s this lack of interest in reality on the Brexit right that has got us to into this unfortunate position.

    No. It’s the lack of interest in your tired repetition of the same points on here, again and again, day after day. This must be the 823rd time you’ve post this.

    At least you’ve dialled back on posting on here daily about Theresa May’s stunning mediocrity. That was your ‘thing’ about a year ago.

    May remains stunningly mediocre. You continue to blame the EU for doing what is best for the EU. Some things never change.

    It is hard to know whether May is just an indecisive Gordon Brown, or whether she is deliberately running down the clock so the Brexiteers have to rubber stamp her BINO plan.

    My money is on the first. 10 months to go...
    Surely an indecisive Gordon Brown is just a tautology?
    Gordon Brown was rather like David Cameron. Both wanted to be PM because they thought they’d be good at it.

    Ho hum!
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 75,841

    DD's back-up plan for NI is apparently that it will alternate between the EU and UK. On Mondays, Wednesdays and Fridays NI will be part of the UK; Tuesdays, Thursdays and Saturdays it will be in the UK. Sundays could be a problem.

    Bloody Sundays xD
  • AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 30,340
    Sandpit said:

    kle4 said:

    Whether or not the EU is being reasonable and harming itself with its truculent behaviour I don't quite understand what the point of agreeing an approach they've already rejected is. I guess if we are going to go harder we need to demonstrate we made the attempt to find a workaround first?

    It’s clear that the EU are going to reject anything that doesn’t involve ongoing regulatory alignment and financial payments for the UK, they see it as in their best intestest to offer only a BINO v WTO choice at the last possible minute, rather than working towards a mutually beneficial agreement.

    We’re best off as far away as possible from such an organisation.
    I haven't seen tectonic Brexit mooted for a while. At the end of the process, Britain will still have a land border with the EU and the straits of Dover will be no wider. Even the most demented Leavers are going to have to come to terms with the fact that the EU is a long term part of Britain's neighbourhood and an essential partner.
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 31,715
    Pulpstar said:

    DD's back-up plan for NI is apparently that it will alternate between the EU and UK. On Mondays, Wednesdays and Fridays NI will be part of the UK; Tuesdays, Thursdays and Saturdays it will be in the UK. Sundays could be a problem.

    Bloody Sundays xD
    Nothing is allowed to happen on NI on Sundays.
  • FF43FF43 Posts: 15,543
    edited June 2018
    rkrkrk said:

    FF43 said:

    To recap. A "solution " that will be instantly rejected by the EU and all the main parties in Northern Ireland, but which papers over the fissures in the cabinet.

    What's the logic for the EU instantly throwing it out?
    I've no idea whether it's possible - but how does it conflict with previously stated Irish/EU desires?
    Why would the EU reject this proposal? Because of the other half of that statement. No-one in Ireland wants it. Interesting that this proposal should unite all the parties in Ireland
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 25,164
    Sandpit said:

    Off-topic:

    Can I join the chorus (well, a few) recommendations of Andrew O'Hagan's excellent article on Grenfell Tower:

    https://www.lrb.co.uk/v40/n11/andrew-ohagan/the-tower

    It's long but brilliant essay, and well worth a read. Perversely, the politicians on the council who have been routine vilified come out looking better than all the national politicians, and many of the 'campaigners' who oppose them.

    I look forward to the results of the inquiry with interest; I guess many campaigners are practising the word 'whitewash'.

    It’s inspired the Gen Sec of the FBU to get his retaliation in, if not first, then quickly. See https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2018/may/31/grenfell-firefighters-heroes-public-inquiry
    Hmmm. I'm far from sure the tone of righteous indignation is the correct one to take, and might rather backfire if the inquiry backs up O'Hagan and others ...
    That point is surely covered by: Tower blocks are designed so if a fire breaks out in a property, the blaze can be held there for a length of time, allowing fire crews to respond. This is called compartmentation. It clearly failed at Grenfell Tower. The “stay put” policy may well have to be changed, particularly after this failure of compartmentation at Grenfell.

    What is slightly odd is that with tower blocks all over the capital, not much has been made of the lack of equipment. Maybe the politicians can't work out which party's fault this is.
    A strategy of containment may well be appropriate when the building is entirely constructed of bricks and has internal fire resistant walls and doors, but it’s completely inappropriate for an externally cladded building where fire can spread up the outside of the structure.

    I still think the enquiry is working in the wrong way, there should be first a factual investigation working in private to produce a report (as happens with transport accidents) followed by the public enquiry and inquests. The danger with the approach taken here is that certain pertinent facts may not come out, as people are more interested in the political and legal ramifications of this incident than they are in preventing a recurrence. There’s really good reasons why evidence given to the AAIB or RAIB can’t be used in a prosecution.
    RAIB - known in the industry as "read about it belatedly". :)
  • not_on_firenot_on_fire Posts: 4,340
    To be fair, it’s mainly Richard Nabavi who is still assuring us the Irish border isn’t an issue. The Brexiteers have wised up.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 50,761

    DavidL said:

    Foxy said:

    The EU are being utter dicks about it. Deliberately.

    The UK is trying hard to find creative solutions that work. Good for DD.

    The UK is not looking for solutions. Cabinet ministers have yet to agree what they want.

    I strongly disagree. It is.

    The EU is looking to use NI as a Trojan Horse to force the rest of the UK into a much closer alignment on the single market and customs union than it would otherwise have. So it isn’t really interested in creative solutions that might mitigate against that.

    That’s as plain as the nose on your face.

    The EU wants what is best for the EU shock. Whoever could have predicted that?

    Yep, so you agree with me then.

    Glad we got that straight.

    Yaaaaaaaaaaaawwwwnn.

    Yep - it’s this lack of interest in reality on the Brexit right that has got us to into this unfortunate position.

    No. It’s the lack of interest in your tired repetition of the same points on here, again and again, day after day. This must be the 823rd time you’ve post this.

    At least you’ve dialled back on posting on here daily about Theresa May’s stunning mediocrity. That was your ‘thing’ about a year ago.

    May remains stunningly mediocre. You continue to blame the EU for doing what is best for the EU. Some things never change.

    It is hard to know whether May is just an indecisive Gordon Brown, or whether she is deliberately running down the clock so the Brexiteers have to rubber stamp her BINO plan.

    My money is on the first. 10 months to go...
    Surely an indecisive Gordon Brown is just a tautology?
    Gordon Brown was rather like David Cameron. Both wanted to be PM because they thought they’d be good at it.

    Ho hum!
    Ah but one of them was right. Cameron was rather good at it. Brown, not so much.
  • not_on_firenot_on_fire Posts: 4,340

    DD's back-up plan for NI is apparently that it will alternate between the EU and UK. On Mondays, Wednesdays and Fridays NI will be part of the UK; Tuesdays, Thursdays and Saturdays it will be in the UK. Sundays could be a problem.

    Sundays can be an EU day. JRM will be in mass all day so won’t notice.
  • not_on_firenot_on_fire Posts: 4,340
    edited June 2018
    Sandpit said:

    kle4 said:

    Whether or not the EU is being reasonable and harming itself with its truculent behaviour I don't quite understand what the point of agreeing an approach they've already rejected is. I guess if we are going to go harder we need to demonstrate we made the attempt to find a workaround first?

    It’s clear that the EU are going to reject anything that doesn’t involve ongoing regulatory alignment and financial payments for the UK, they see it as in their best intestest to offer only a BINO v WTO choice at the last possible minute, rather than working towards a mutually beneficial agreement.

    We’re best off as far away as possible from such an organisation.
    On the contrary, I think we should do our utmost to be part of an organisation that is clearly far better at negotiating and understanding how to exploit the other side’s weakness. A handy partner to have on side if, say, the US President starts a trade war.

    And this opinion is a sham anyway - if the EU had agreed to everything we demanded would you be saying we should have stayed? No, you’d be saying “See, told you it was easy - we should have left years ago”
  • SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 20,392
    Schrödinger's Ulster
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 31,273
    David Davis' Telegraph article of 27 May 2016 is worth a re-read for any Brexiteers getting a bit anxious - it will all be fine, honestly...

    "Yes, there have been warnings of destitution and disaster from our European colleagues. But should we leave, this tone will switch from antagonism to pragmatism."

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/05/27/britain-is-not-like-other-countries--even-the-sclerotic-eu-will/
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,709
    Senior Republicans including Speaker Paul Ryan attack Trump's tariffs plan as 'attacking American allies when we should be working with them to tackle unfair Chinese trade practices.'

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-44324565

    While economically with some merit it could lead to Trump loyalists sitting on their hands in November's midterms rather than vote for establishment GOP candidates
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 38,517

    Off-topic:

    Can I join the chorus (well, a few) recommendations of Andrew O'Hagan's excellent article on Grenfell Tower:

    https://www.lrb.co.uk/v40/n11/andrew-ohagan/the-tower

    It's long but brilliant essay, and well worth a read. Perversely, the politicians on the council who have been routine vilified come out looking better than all the national politicians, and many of the 'campaigners' who oppose them.

    I look forward to the results of the inquiry with interest; I guess many campaigners are practising the word 'whitewash'.

    It’s inspired the Gen Sec of the FBU to get his retaliation in, if not first, then quickly. See https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2018/may/31/grenfell-firefighters-heroes-public-inquiry
    Hmmm. I'm far from sure the tone of righteous indignation is the correct one to take, and might rather backfire if the inquiry backs up O'Hagan and others ...
    That point is surely covered by: Tower blocks are designed so if a fire breaks out in a property, the blaze can be held there for a length of time, allowing fire crews to respond. This is called compartmentation. It clearly failed at Grenfell Tower. The “stay put” policy may well have to be changed, particularly after this failure of compartmentation at Grenfell.

    What is slightly odd is that with tower blocks all over the capital, not much has been made of the lack of equipment. Maybe the politicians can't work out which party's fault this is.
    No, it isn't - because he is clearly prejudging things. Read his second paragraph.

    The awful truth in this is that it may be 'nobodies' 'fault', whilst many people and organisations may partly share the blame. No-one wanted the fire to happen, and no-one wanted the casualties. What happened, like in so many incidents, is a chain of events and decisions, some going back decades, that contributed to the disaster. Even with hindsight, it may be hard to say: "this decision led to the deaths."

    Sadly, this will not be the case for the media and the 'campaigners', who want to simplify things because someone needs to be to blame. That person is, usually and unsurprisingly, a person or group the campaigner does not like. They will try to simplify a complex story.

    O'Hagan's article is excellent and is very uncomfortable reading.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 38,517
    tlg86 said:

    Sandpit said:

    Off-topic:

    Can I join the chorus (well, a few) recommendations of Andrew O'Hagan's excellent article on Grenfell Tower:

    https://www.lrb.co.uk/v40/n11/andrew-ohagan/the-tower

    It's long but brilliant essay, and well worth a read. Perversely, the politicians on the council who have been routine vilified come out looking better than all the national politicians, and many of the 'campaigners' who oppose them.

    I look forward to the results of the inquiry with interest; I guess many campaigners are practising the word 'whitewash'.

    It’s inspired the Gen Sec of the FBU to get his retaliation in, if not first, then quickly. See https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2018/may/31/grenfell-firefighters-heroes-public-inquiry
    Hmmm. I'm far from sure the tone of righteous indignation is the correct one to take, and might rather backfire if the inquiry backs up O'Hagan and others ...
    That point is surely covered by: Tower blocks are designed so if a fire breaks out in a property, the blaze can be held there for a length of time, allowing fire crews to respond. This is called compartmentation. It clearly failed at Grenfell Tower. The “stay put” policy may well have to be changed, particularly after this failure of compartmentation at Grenfell.

    What is slightly odd is that with tower blocks all over the capital, not much has been made of the lack of equipment. Maybe the politicians can't work out which party's fault this is.
    A strategy of containment may well be appropriate when the building is entirely constructed of bricks and has internal fire resistant walls and doors, but it’s completely inappropriate for an externally cladded building where fire can spread up the outside of the structure.

    I still think the enquiry is working in the wrong way, there should be first a factual investigation working in private to produce a report (as happens with transport accidents) followed by the public enquiry and inquests. The danger with the approach taken here is that certain pertinent facts may not come out, as people are more interested in the political and legal ramifications of this incident than they are in preventing a recurrence. There’s really good reasons why evidence given to the AAIB or RAIB can’t be used in a prosecution.
    RAIB - known in the industry as "read about it belatedly". :)
    :)

    Although that's a bit unfair, isn't it?
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 59,540

    Farage defending US sanctions imposed on the UK.

    A somewhat pungent metaphor from Leonardo, but difficult to disagree with:

    https://twitter.com/leonardocarella/status/1002425140616089600
  • MortimerMortimer Posts: 13,921

    Mortimer said:

    The EU are being utter dicks about it. Deliberately.

    The UK is trying hard to find creative solutions that work. Good for DD.

    The UK is not looking for solutions. Cabinet ministers have yet to agree what they want.

    I strongly disagree. It is.

    The EU is looking to use NI as a Trojan Horse to force the rest of the UK into a much closer alignment on the single market and customs union than it would otherwise have. So it isn’t really interested in creative solutions that might mitigate against that.

    That’s as plain as the nose on your face.

    The EU wants what is best for the EU shock. Whoever could have predicted that?

    Yep, so you agree with me then.

    Glad we got that straight.

    Of course the EU wants what is best for the EU. Who could possibly disagree? The problem is that the negotiation is totally unequal. We need them a whole lot more than they need us. Why any of this is a surprise to anyone is beyond me. But it’s something the UK is going to have to get used to in the international trade arena.

    It’s give and take. But if the EU don’t realise how much they need to access London capital markets, then they really are heading for a full blown economic crisis soon.
    "They need us more than we need them" eh?
    On access to the world's capital markets, absolutely.
  • not_on_firenot_on_fire Posts: 4,340

    Off-topic:

    Can I join the chorus (well, a few) recommendations of Andrew O'Hagan's excellent article on Grenfell Tower:

    https://www.lrb.co.uk/v40/n11/andrew-ohagan/the-tower

    It's long but brilliant essay, and well worth a read. Perversely, the politicians on the council who have been routine vilified come out looking better than all the national politicians, and many of the 'campaigners' who oppose them.

    I look forward to the results of the inquiry with interest; I guess many campaigners are practising the word 'whitewash'.

    It’s inspired the Gen Sec of the FBU to get his retaliation in, if not first, then quickly. See https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2018/may/31/grenfell-firefighters-heroes-public-inquiry
    Hmmm. I'm far from sure the tone of righteous indignation is the correct one to take, and might rather backfire if the inquiry backs up O'Hagan and others ...
    That point is surely covered by: Tower blocks are designed so if a fire breaks out in a property, the blaze can be held there for a length of time, allowing fire crews to respond. This is called compartmentation. It clearly failed at Grenfell Tower. The “stay put” policy may well have to be changed, particularly after this failure of compartmentation at Grenfell.

    What is slightly odd is that with tower blocks all over the capital, not much has been made of the lack of equipment. Maybe the politicians can't work out which party's fault this is.
    No, it isn't - because he is clearly prejudging things. Read his second paragraph.

    The awful truth in this is that it may be 'nobodies' 'fault', whilst many people and organisations may partly share the blame. No-one wanted the fire to happen, and no-one wanted the casualties. What happened, like in so many incidents, is a chain of events and decisions, some going back decades, that contributed to the disaster. Even with hindsight, it may be hard to say: "this decision led to the deaths."

    Sadly, this will not be the case for the media and the 'campaigners', who want to simplify things because someone needs to be to blame. That person is, usually and unsurprisingly, a person or group the campaigner does not like. They will try to simplify a complex story.

    O'Hagan's article is excellent and is very uncomfortable reading.
    The compartmentalisation would have worked had it not been for the cladding which was relatively recently installed. That said, the advice to stay put clearly should have been changed earlier.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 49,614
    tlg86 said:

    Sandpit said:

    Off-topic:

    Can I join the chorus (well, a few) recommendations of Andrew O'Hagan's excellent article on Grenfell Tower:

    https://www.lrb.co.uk/v40/n11/andrew-ohagan/the-tower

    It's long but brilliant essay, and well worth a read. Perversely, the politicians on the council who have been routine vilified come out looking better than all the national politicians, and many of the 'campaigners' who oppose them.

    I look forward to the results of the inquiry with interest; I guess many campaigners are practising the word 'whitewash'.

    It’s inspired the Gen Sec of the FBU to get his retaliation in, if not first, then quickly. See https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2018/may/31/grenfell-firefighters-heroes-public-inquiry
    Hmmm. I'm far from sure the tone of righteous indignation is the correct one to take, and might rather backfire if the inquiry backs up O'Hagan and others ...
    That point is surely covered by: Tower blocks are designed so if a fire breaks out in a property, the blaze can be held there for a length of time, allowing fire crews to respond. This is called compartmentation. It clearly failed at Grenfell Tower. The “stay put” policy may well have to be changed, particularly after this failure of compartmentation at Grenfell.

    What is slightly odd is that with tower blocks all over the capital, not much has been made of the lack of equipment. Maybe the politicians can't work out which party's fault this is.
    A strategy of containment may well be appropriate when the building is entirely constructed of bricks and has internal fire resistant walls and doors, but it’s completely inappropriate for an externally cladded building where fire can spread up the outside of the structure.

    I still think the enquiry is working in the wrong way, there should be first a factual investigation working in private to produce a report (as happens with transport accidents) followed by the public enquiry and inquests. The danger with the approach taken here is that certain pertinent facts may not come out, as people are more interested in the political and legal ramifications of this incident than they are in preventing a recurrence. There’s really good reasons why evidence given to the AAIB or RAIB can’t be used in a prosecution.
    RAIB - known in the industry as "read about it belatedly". :)
    Sometimes it’s much better to be accurate than first. The Grenfell tragedy is the epitome of what happens when such attitudes are reversed. RAIB will issue recommendations very early in the process however, if they feel that specific urgent action is required on the part of operators or regulators.
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 60,933
    Mr. Sandpit, quite. I wonder if May is playing along with that because she's a fool or because she's a knave.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,709
    edited June 2018
    Unless the DUP actually vote for Corbyn as Sinn Fein will not take their seats the Tories will still have more seats than Labour plus SNP plus LD plus Green plus Plaid so May would still likely remain PM (and on current polls a new election might even see the Tories gain a few seats anyway).

    However the DUP will still have the casting vote on Northern Ireland and if they cannot be brought on board for Davis' plan for dual EU and UK regulations it will not pass the Commons given Corbyn wants the UK to effectively stay in the Customs Union which this plan falls short of and it needs to also get the EU to agree to be worthwhile anyway though it is close to what was originally agreed with the EU in December
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 25,164
    edited June 2018

    tlg86 said:

    RAIB - known in the industry as "read about it belatedly". :)

    :)

    Although that's a bit unfair, isn't it?
    It probably is now. It's remarkable how far rail safety has come (touches wood).

    Part of the problem with things like Grenfell is that, whilst it's good that such things are very rare, it can make dealing with them more difficult when they do happen. They can model things all they like, reality has a habit of being quite different.
  • NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 21,263



    No, it isn't - because he is clearly prejudging things. Read his second paragraph.

    The awful truth in this is that it may be 'nobodies' 'fault', whilst many people and organisations may partly share the blame. No-one wanted the fire to happen, and no-one wanted the casualties. What happened, like in so many incidents, is a chain of events and decisions, some going back decades, that contributed to the disaster. Even with hindsight, it may be hard to say: "this decision led to the deaths."

    Sadly, this will not be the case for the media and the 'campaigners', who want to simplify things because someone needs to be to blame. That person is, usually and unsurprisingly, a person or group the campaigner does not like. They will try to simplify a complex story.

    O'Hagan's article is excellent and is very uncomfortable reading.

    I think you're probably right. More generally, the old motto said to guide journalists remains more true than ever for many: "Simplify, then exaggerrate."
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 49,614

    Sandpit said:

    kle4 said:

    Whether or not the EU is being reasonable and harming itself with its truculent behaviour I don't quite understand what the point of agreeing an approach they've already rejected is. I guess if we are going to go harder we need to demonstrate we made the attempt to find a workaround first?

    It’s clear that the EU are going to reject anything that doesn’t involve ongoing regulatory alignment and financial payments for the UK, they see it as in their best intestest to offer only a BINO v WTO choice at the last possible minute, rather than working towards a mutually beneficial agreement.

    We’re best off as far away as possible from such an organisation.
    I haven't seen tectonic Brexit mooted for a while. At the end of the process, Britain will still have a land border with the EU and the straits of Dover will be no wider. Even the most demented Leavers are going to have to come to terms with the fact that the EU is a long term part of Britain's neighbourhood and an essential partner.
    Indeed, in the long term a good relationship is very important. In the short term however, we are IMO better off taking a step back, seeing how things go for a while, then re-engaging once everyone and everything has calmed down and we can all better see the way forward.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,709
    Roger said:

    It's Donald Trump taking the piss for no other reason than he can. He's having fun and why not? He's the clown son of a multi billionaire who has tired of everything else and is now enjoying seeing how far he can make the world gyrate as he pulls the strings.

    He's loving it! It reminds me of the film 'Rollerball'. Life had become so shallow and meaningless that they decided to make the national sport more exciting. They drop all the rules. Ironically it was shot in '75 but it was set in the future. 2018 to be exact!

    Trunp is a billionaire his father was a millionaire
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 31,273
    edited June 2018

    Off-topic:

    Can I join the chorus (well, a few) recommendations of Andrew O'Hagan's excellent article on Grenfell Tower:

    https://www.lrb.co.uk/v40/n11/andrew-ohagan/the-tower

    It's long but brilliant essay, and well worth a read. Perversely, the politicians on the council who have been routine vilified come out looking better than all the national politicians, and many of the 'campaigners' who oppose them.

    I look forward to the results of the inquiry with interest; I guess many campaigners are practising the word 'whitewash'.

    That point is surely covered by: Tower blocks are designed so if a fire breaks out in a property, the blaze can be held there for a length of time, allowing fire crews to respond. This is called compartmentation. It clearly failed at Grenfell Tower. The “stay put” policy may well have to be changed, particularly after this failure of compartmentation at Grenfell.

    What is slightly odd is that with tower blocks all over the capital, not much has been made of the lack of equipment. Maybe the politicians can't work out which party's fault this is.
    No, it isn't - because he is clearly prejudging things. Read his second paragraph.

    The awful truth in this is that it may be 'nobodies' 'fault', whilst many people and organisations may partly share the blame. No-one wanted the fire to happen, and no-one wanted the casualties. What happened, like in so many incidents, is a chain of events and decisions, some going back decades, that contributed to the disaster. Even with hindsight, it may be hard to say: "this decision led to the deaths."

    Sadly, this will not be the case for the media and the 'campaigners', who want to simplify things because someone needs to be to blame. That person is, usually and unsurprisingly, a person or group the campaigner does not like. They will try to simplify a complex story.

    O'Hagan's article is excellent and is very uncomfortable reading.
    I agree O'Hagan's article is excellent and well worth a read.

    For me the question I am left with is why there was no apparent attempt to evacuate those trapped using spare sets of breathing apparatus, once it was clear the fire could not be contained. Was it fear that the building might collapse? Lack of equipment? Was it against agreed protocol? I recognise is very easy to pontificate in the cold light of day, so let's hope the inquiry gets to the detail. I don't doubt for one minute the bravery of the individual firefighters - no one would have wanted to be in their place.

    Sadly, history shows time and time again that it often takes a disaster to help us understand how to avoid future ones.
  • Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    OK, I admit it, I underestimated DD.

    Having committed to not having "a" hard border in Ireland, having 2 borders is genius...
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 31,273
    HYUFD said:

    Roger said:

    It's Donald Trump taking the piss for no other reason than he can. He's having fun and why not? He's the clown son of a multi billionaire who has tired of everything else and is now enjoying seeing how far he can make the world gyrate as he pulls the strings.

    He's loving it! It reminds me of the film 'Rollerball'. Life had become so shallow and meaningless that they decided to make the national sport more exciting. They drop all the rules. Ironically it was shot in '75 but it was set in the future. 2018 to be exact!

    Trunp is a billionaire his father was a millionaire
    Makes all the difference (!)
This discussion has been closed.