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David Davis’ new plan for ‘buffer zone’ at Irish border to break Brexit deadlock branded ‘nonsense’ by the DUP https://t.co/mn3flKomCl

Read the full story here

Nigelb

And fifthly...

Morris_Dancer

Good afternoon, everyone.

williamglenn

https://twitter.com/NickCohen4/status/1002495859123216386

eek

Surely the test for any sensible idea in Northern Ireland is the DUP opposing it.

RoyalBlue

Whatever deal May gets, she won’t be able to get it through the Commons.

rcs1000

blueblue said:

rcs1000 said:

blueblue said:

Do you think the Conservatives ever look at the populist parties either seizing or challenging for power across the world and think "Hey, we'll have some of that - campaigning on outside-the-box policies that are actually popular. We might even win that mythical landslide, at last!"

No, me neither. We'll just have them throw away a golden opportunity by being boring and unimaginative in the most populist age in decades, and letting the British left seize that initiative themselves. Well played, chaps.

The problem with most of the populist parties is that they believe in the magic money tree, and they see simple solutions to complex problems.

Do you want the Tories to lie to the electorate, and say - for example - that cutting taxes 10% and increasing spending 10% will pay for itself through the magic of... errr... magic.

If it's a choice being that and Corbyn, damned right I would. Win the goddamned majority first, then deal with the hard details later. The electorate at the moment is infinitely forgiving of failure to fulfil unrealistic promises, but utterly intolerant of the failure to make them in the first place!

I would suggest that one of the reasons why populist parties are surging is because electorates feel they have been lied to by the traditional parties of government.

But then again, Mrs May got terribly punished for reminding people that the government cannot afford - with an ageing population leading to an ever worsening dependency ratio - to spend unlimited amounts on peoples' end of life care.

rcs1000

England are letting this test slip out of their fingers.

TOPPING

rcs1000 said:

England are letting this test slip out of their fingers.

I bloody well hope so I'm on a Pakistan win and the draw.

Things have come to a pretty pass when you can't even rely on an England collapse.

anothernick

RoyalBlue said:

Whatever deal May gets, she won’t be able to get it through the Commons.

That, I think, is the nub of it. There is no Brexit deal that a hung parliament would accept. And the result will either be the cliff edge or an indefinite extension of the A50 deadline.

williamglenn

rcs1000 said:

But then again, Mrs May got terribly punished for reminding people that the government cannot afford - with an ageing population leading to an ever worsening dependency ratio - to spend unlimited amounts on peoples' end of life care.

We don't really know what would have happened if she'd stuck to her guns instead of that embarrassing "nothing has changed" u-turn.

DecrepitJohnL

rcs1000 said:

blueblue said:

rcs1000 said:

blueblue said:

Do you think the Conservatives ever look at the populist parties either seizing or challenging for power across the world and think "Hey, we'll have some of that - campaigning on outside-the-box policies that are actually popular. We might even win that mythical landslide, at last!"

No, me neither. We'll just have them throw away a golden opportunity by being boring and unimaginative in the most populist age in decades, and letting the British left seize that initiative themselves. Well played, chaps.

The problem with most of the populist parties is that they believe in the magic money tree, and they see simple solutions to complex problems.

Do you want the Tories to lie to the electorate, and say - for example - that cutting taxes 10% and increasing spending 10% will pay for itself through the magic of... errr... magic.

If it's a choice being that and Corbyn, damned right I would. Win the goddamned majority first, then deal with the hard details later. The electorate at the moment is infinitely forgiving of failure to fulfil unrealistic promises, but utterly intolerant of the failure to make them in the first place!

I would suggest that one of the reasons why populist parties are surging is because electorates feel they have been lied to by the traditional parties of government.

But then again, Mrs May got terribly punished for reminding people that the government cannot afford - with an ageing population leading to an ever worsening dependency ratio - to spend unlimited amounts on peoples' end of life care.

Erm no. We were assured on this very here pb that the plan would save people money and protect their savings, so the problem was Mrs May's reluctance to explain or debate this.

And I do not recall there being anything in the Tory manifesto about the costs of its flagship policy, Brexit. Or its financial benefits. Or anything apart from its being smooth and orderly (repeated half a dozen times).

AlastairMeeks

It looks like Theresa May wants the DUP to vote for a customs union. It’s hard to see another explanation for the government’s floated proposal.

DecrepitJohnL

This is why David Cameron should have held a royal commission to establish post-Brexit scenarios before calling the bloody referendum. And why Theresa May should have done the same before triggering Article 50.

williamglenn

anothernick said:

RoyalBlue said:

Whatever deal May gets, she won’t be able to get it through the Commons.

That, I think, is the nub of it. There is no Brexit deal that a hung parliament would accept. And the result will either be the cliff edge or an indefinite extension of the A50 deadline.

I think the critical thing is what position the likes of Davis, Fox and Johnson can credibly take in the hours and days after a defeat on the deal. They have three choices:

- Fight on to defend the deal as the best available (how do they square that with their pre-referendum promises?)
- Disown the deal and therefore the government
- Reverse ferret on Brexit entirely

Bromptonaut

What happens to the cows that wander outside the 10 mile zone?

Will they have to be geo-fenced with shock collars?

DecrepitJohnL

AlastairMeeks said:

It looks like Theresa May wants the DUP to vote for a customs union. It’s hard to see another explanation for the government’s floated proposal.

That would mean the PM has failed to consult the party she relies on to prop up her government. What could possibly go wrong?

Recidivist

DecrepitJohnL said:

This is why David Cameron should have held a royal commission to establish post-Brexit scenarios before calling the bloody referendum. And why Theresa May should have done the same before triggering Article 50.

Good points. Either of those would have made the whole situation a lot better. And a referendum question with more than two options would have been an improvement too.

rcs1000

https://twitter.com/ajb_powell/status/1002465444006154240

williamglenn

AlastairMeeks said:

It looks like Theresa May wants the DUP to vote for a customs union. It’s hard to see another explanation for the government’s floated proposal.

Agreed. But that begs the question of what comes next, and why May would want to time the erasure of her red lines to be so soon.

If she's planning a second referendum it would make sense.

CarlottaVance

Not just Britain making a Horlicks of Brexit:

http://blogs.lse.ac.uk/brexit/2018/05/21/misguiding-britain-the-eus-brexit-mistakes-are-many/

http://blogs.lse.ac.uk/brexit/2018/05/30/refusing-to-dance-to-a-brexit-tune-how-the-eu-has-misinterpreted-britains-vote-to-leave/

felix

EXCLUSIVE: Bar Staff At Jezfest Will Work Unpaid https://order-order.com/2018/06/01/bar-staff-will-work-free-labour-live/ …

rkrkrk

williamglenn said:

AlastairMeeks said:

It looks like Theresa May wants the DUP to vote for a customs union. It’s hard to see another explanation for the government’s floated proposal.

Agreed. But that begs the question of what comes next, and why May would want to time the erasure of her red lines to be so soon.

If she's planning a second referendum it would make sense.

Do you think there's a majority in the Commons for Referendum 2?
Could she even get it done before March?

williamglenn

rkrkrk said:

williamglenn said:

AlastairMeeks said:

It looks like Theresa May wants the DUP to vote for a customs union. It’s hard to see another explanation for the government’s floated proposal.

Agreed. But that begs the question of what comes next, and why May would want to time the erasure of her red lines to be so soon.

If she's planning a second referendum it would make sense.

Do you think there's a majority in the Commons for Referendum 2?
Could she even get it done before March?

If May backed it, Corbyn couldn't get away with opposing it so therefore there would be a majority.

I think we could get an A50 extension if needed to allow time for it. If it were held in the run up to the European elections it would bring into focus that we would be choosing between having a say and having no say.

anothernick

williamglenn said:

AlastairMeeks said:

It looks like Theresa May wants the DUP to vote for a customs union. It’s hard to see another explanation for the government’s floated proposal.

Agreed. But that begs the question of what comes next, and why May would want to time the erasure of her red lines to be so soon.

If she's planning a second referendum it would make sense.

I think the answer to the timing question could be that the the EU has threatened to announce at the June summit that a transitional deal is off unless May has resolved the customs union question before it takes place.

rcs1000

CarlottaVance said:

Not just Britain making a Horlicks of Brexit:

http://blogs.lse.ac.uk/brexit/2018/05/21/misguiding-britain-the-eus-brexit-mistakes-are-many/

http://blogs.lse.ac.uk/brexit/2018/05/30/refusing-to-dance-to-a-brexit-tune-how-the-eu-has-misinterpreted-britains-vote-to-leave/

Agree completely: both the UK and the EU have damaged themselves in the Brexit process.

They have seen Brexit as a one-off transaction, and have determined to nickle and dime us. Their failure to realise that our long-term strategic interests align, and that we should be close allies will cost them dear.

Our error was to fail to realise that the EU felt like a dumped girlfriend. Publicly gloating that our exit would cause "the whole house of cards to collapse" was unlikely to put the EU in a frame of mind to smooth our exit.

We have, belatedly, realised our errors. I do not believe the EU has (yet) realised theirs.

rkrkrk

williamglenn said:

rkrkrk said:

williamglenn said:

AlastairMeeks said:

It looks like Theresa May wants the DUP to vote for a customs union. It’s hard to see another explanation for the government’s floated proposal.

Agreed. But that begs the question of what comes next, and why May would want to time the erasure of her red lines to be so soon.

If she's planning a second referendum it would make sense.

Do you think there's a majority in the Commons for Referendum 2?
Could she even get it done before March?

If May backed it, Corbyn couldn't get away with opposing it so therefore there would be a majority.

I think we could get an A50 extension if needed to allow time for it. If it were held in the run up to the European elections it would bring into focus that we would be choosing between having a say and having no say.

If May backed it - she'd face a leadership challenge immediately, I can't imagine the likes of Gove could back her if one of the referendum options was staying in.

David_Evershed

AlastairMeeks said:

It looks like Theresa May wants the DUP to vote for a customs union. It’s hard to see another explanation for the government’s floated proposal.

Gov't demonstarting they have scrapped the bottom of the barrel to find solutions that the EU might agree to. All to no avail - which leaves going for WTO terms, which is where we should have started negotiations.

OllyT

rcs1000 said:

blueblue said:

rcs1000 said:

blueblue said:

Do you think the Conservatives ever look at the populist parties either seizing or challenging for power across the world and think "Hey, we'll have some of that - campaigning on outside-the-box policies that are actually popular. We might even win that mythical landslide, at last!"

No, me neither. We'll just have them throw away a golden opportunity by being boring and unimaginative in the most populist age in decades, and letting the British left seize that initiative themselves. Well played, chaps.

The problem with most of the populist parties is that they believe in the magic money tree, and they see simple solutions to complex problems.

Do you want the Tories to lie to the electorate, and say - for example - that cutting taxes 10% and increasing spending 10% will pay for itself through the magic of... errr... magic.

If it's a choice being that and Corbyn, damned right I would. Win the goddamned majority first, then deal with the hard details later. The electorate at the moment is infinitely forgiving of failure to fulfil unrealistic promises, but utterly intolerant of the failure to make them in the first place!

I would suggest that one of the reasons why populist parties are surging is because electorates feel they have been lied to by the traditional parties of government.

But then again, Mrs May got terribly punished for reminding people that the government cannot afford - with an ageing population leading to an ever worsening dependency ratio - to spend unlimited amounts on peoples' end of life care.

Populist parties are surging because people want to believe simple solutions are available to very complex problems. Will Brexit solve Britains's problems? Would Italy leaving the EU solve their problems? No,but it's easy for a certain type of unscrupulous politician to pretend they will. Delivering on that promise is where the problems start.

We will never address the "end of life care" issue because nobody wants to face reality and there will always be politicians who pretend we don't have to.

Pulpstar

Bromptonaut said:

What happens to the cows that wander outside the 10 mile zone?

Will they have to be geo-fenced with shock collars?

Death sentence:

https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/world-news/pregnant-illegal-immigrant-cow-executed-12629679

williamglenn

rkrkrk said:

williamglenn said:

rkrkrk said:

williamglenn said:

AlastairMeeks said:

It looks like Theresa May wants the DUP to vote for a customs union. It’s hard to see another explanation for the government’s floated proposal.

Agreed. But that begs the question of what comes next, and why May would want to time the erasure of her red lines to be so soon.

If she's planning a second referendum it would make sense.

Do you think there's a majority in the Commons for Referendum 2?
Could she even get it done before March?

If May backed it, Corbyn couldn't get away with opposing it so therefore there would be a majority.

I think we could get an A50 extension if needed to allow time for it. If it were held in the run up to the European elections it would bring into focus that we would be choosing between having a say and having no say.

If May backed it - she'd face a leadership challenge immediately, I can't imagine the likes of Gove could back her if one of the referendum options was staying in.

She could face down a leadership challenge and win, and if it were already clear that the only Brexit she could get through the Commons would involve a customs union, many Brexiteers would reluctantly accept that it's inevitable anyway.

AndyJS

England making a minor mess of things at Headingley. Pakistan were 79 for 7, now 155 for 8.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/live/cricket/43866876

David_Evershed

williamglenn said:

rkrkrk said:

williamglenn said:

rkrkrk said:

williamglenn said:

AlastairMeeks said:

It looks like Theresa May wants the DUP to vote for a customs union. It’s hard to see another explanation for the government’s floated proposal.

Agreed. But that begs the question of what comes next, and why May would want to time the erasure of her red lines to be so soon.

If she's planning a second referendum it would make sense.

Do you think there's a majority in the Commons for Referendum 2?
Could she even get it done before March?

If May backed it, Corbyn couldn't get away with opposing it so therefore there would be a majority.

I think we could get an A50 extension if needed to allow time for it. If it were held in the run up to the European elections it would bring into focus that we would be choosing between having a say and having no say.

If May backed it - she'd face a leadership challenge immediately, I can't imagine the likes of Gove could back her if one of the referendum options was staying in.

She could face down a leadership challenge and win, and if it were already clear that the only Brexit she could get through the Commons would involve a customs union, many Brexiteers would reluctantly accept that it's inevitable anyway.

"No deal is better than a bad deal." T May

OldKingCole

AndyJS said:

England making a minor mess of things at Headingley. Pakistan were 79 for 7, now 155 for 8.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/live/cricket/43866876

156-9

David_Evershed

AndyJS said:

England making a minor mess of things at Headingley. Pakistan were 79 for 7, now 155 for 8.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/live/cricket/43866876

Good work.

Pakistan 156 for 9.

AlastairMeeks

rcs1000 said:

CarlottaVance said:

Not just Britain making a Horlicks of Brexit:

http://blogs.lse.ac.uk/brexit/2018/05/21/misguiding-britain-the-eus-brexit-mistakes-are-many/

http://blogs.lse.ac.uk/brexit/2018/05/30/refusing-to-dance-to-a-brexit-tune-how-the-eu-has-misinterpreted-britains-vote-to-leave/

Agree completely: both the UK and the EU have damaged themselves in the Brexit process.

They have seen Brexit as a one-off transaction, and have determined to nickle and dime us. Their failure to realise that our long-term strategic interests align, and that we should be close allies will cost them dear.

Our error was to fail to realise that the EU felt like a dumped girlfriend. Publicly gloating that our exit would cause "the whole house of cards to collapse" was unlikely to put the EU in a frame of mind to smooth our exit.

We have, belatedly, realised our errors. I do not believe the EU has (yet) realised theirs.

I don’t see any evidence that Leavers have learned this lesson. Only this week all the usual suspects were pronouncing the imminent demise of the EU over Italy.

williamglenn

David_Evershed said:

williamglenn said:

rkrkrk said:

williamglenn said:

rkrkrk said:

williamglenn said:

AlastairMeeks said:

It looks like Theresa May wants the DUP to vote for a customs union. It’s hard to see another explanation for the government’s floated proposal.

Agreed. But that begs the question of what comes next, and why May would want to time the erasure of her red lines to be so soon.

If she's planning a second referendum it would make sense.

Do you think there's a majority in the Commons for Referendum 2?
Could she even get it done before March?

If May backed it, Corbyn couldn't get away with opposing it so therefore there would be a majority.

I think we could get an A50 extension if needed to allow time for it. If it were held in the run up to the European elections it would bring into focus that we would be choosing between having a say and having no say.

If May backed it - she'd face a leadership challenge immediately, I can't imagine the likes of Gove could back her if one of the referendum options was staying in.

She could face down a leadership challenge and win, and if it were already clear that the only Brexit she could get through the Commons would involve a customs union, many Brexiteers would reluctantly accept that it's inevitable anyway.

"No deal is better than a bad deal." T May

No Brexit is the easiest variant of no deal.

anothernick

David_Evershed said:

williamglenn said:

rkrkrk said:

williamglenn said:

rkrkrk said:

williamglenn said:

AlastairMeeks said:

It looks like Theresa May wants the DUP to vote for a customs union. It’s hard to see another explanation for the government’s floated proposal.

Agreed. But that begs the question of what comes next, and why May would want to time the erasure of her red lines to be so soon.

If she's planning a second referendum it would make sense.

Do you think there's a majority in the Commons for Referendum 2?
Could she even get it done before March?

If May backed it, Corbyn couldn't get away with opposing it so therefore there would be a majority.

I think we could get an A50 extension if needed to allow time for it. If it were held in the run up to the European elections it would bring into focus that we would be choosing between having a say and having no say.

If May backed it - she'd face a leadership challenge immediately, I can't imagine the likes of Gove could back her if one of the referendum options was staying in.

She could face down a leadership challenge and win, and if it were already clear that the only Brexit she could get through the Commons would involve a customs union, many Brexiteers would reluctantly accept that it's inevitable anyway.

"No deal is better than a bad deal." T May

Not to mention

"there will not be a general election"
"EU citizens arriving after March 2019 will not have automatic right of settlement"
"the ECJ will have no jurisdiction in the UK after Brexit"
"no British PM could ever sign up to anything which proposed a customs border in the Irish sea"

May's commitments rarely survive more than a day or two.

anothernick

AlastairMeeks said:

rcs1000 said:

CarlottaVance said:

Not just Britain making a Horlicks of Brexit:

http://blogs.lse.ac.uk/brexit/2018/05/21/misguiding-britain-the-eus-brexit-mistakes-are-many/

http://blogs.lse.ac.uk/brexit/2018/05/30/refusing-to-dance-to-a-brexit-tune-how-the-eu-has-misinterpreted-britains-vote-to-leave/

Agree completely: both the UK and the EU have damaged themselves in the Brexit process.

They have seen Brexit as a one-off transaction, and have determined to nickle and dime us. Their failure to realise that our long-term strategic interests align, and that we should be close allies will cost them dear.

Our error was to fail to realise that the EU felt like a dumped girlfriend. Publicly gloating that our exit would cause "the whole house of cards to collapse" was unlikely to put the EU in a frame of mind to smooth our exit.

We have, belatedly, realised our errors. I do not believe the EU has (yet) realised theirs.

I don’t see any evidence that Leavers have learned this lesson. Only this week all the usual suspects were pronouncing the imminent demise of the EU over Italy.

If the Treasury could collect £1 for every prediction of the demise of the EU/Euro that has been made since 1957 it could easily afford the legendary £350m weekly payment to the NHS.

David_Evershed

felix said:

EXCLUSIVE: Bar Staff At Jezfest Will Work Unpaid https://order-order.com/2018/06/01/bar-staff-will-work-free-labour-live/ …

Working for free drinks perhaps. Are they unaware of the Truck Acts?

williamglenn

rcs1000 said:

CarlottaVance said:

Not just Britain making a Horlicks of Brexit:

http://blogs.lse.ac.uk/brexit/2018/05/21/misguiding-britain-the-eus-brexit-mistakes-are-many/

http://blogs.lse.ac.uk/brexit/2018/05/30/refusing-to-dance-to-a-brexit-tune-how-the-eu-has-misinterpreted-britains-vote-to-leave/

Agree completely: both the UK and the EU have damaged themselves in the Brexit process.

They have seen Brexit as a one-off transaction, and have determined to nickle and dime us. Their failure to realise that our long-term strategic interests align, and that we should be close allies will cost them dear.

Our error was to fail to realise that the EU felt like a dumped girlfriend. Publicly gloating that our exit would cause "the whole house of cards to collapse" was unlikely to put the EU in a frame of mind to smooth our exit.

We have, belatedly, realised our errors. I do not believe the EU has (yet) realised theirs.

This is completely wrong. The EU's strategy has always been focused on the long term, from a position of understanding that a) the UK would always need the EU for as long as the EU exists, and b) anything decided during the Brexit process could create a precedent or playbook that could be used at some point in the future in circumstances that may not be so relatively benign.

The mistake that Brexiteers made was in treating the Brexit vote as final and not merely a point in time. The fact that Britain's long-term strategic interests align with those of the EU is precisely why they don't need to bend over backwards to accommodate Brexit. In the end, we have no other viable strategic option.

Alanbrooke

I wonder if Angie is regretting going for that 4th term?

Minority government
Lowest polls in ages
Immigration scandal
Diesel Scandal
Italy
Spain
Brexit
Trump

Hard to see much upside for her

rcs1000

David_Evershed said:

AlastairMeeks said:

It looks like Theresa May wants the DUP to vote for a customs union. It’s hard to see another explanation for the government’s floated proposal.

Gov't demonstarting they have scrapped the bottom of the barrel to find solutions that the EU might agree to. All to no avail - which leaves going for WTO terms, which is where we should have started negotiations.

We should have started building border infrastructure and hiring staff the day after the Brexit vote.

Indeed, the correct negotiating strategy would have been to have talked softly (i.e., been nice about our neighbours in public) but carried a big stick (i.e., to have been clearly prepared to go for no deal, if need be).

Instead we went for insulting them, while doing nothing to prepare for No Deal Brexit.

Fenster

AlastairMeeks said:

rcs1000 said:

CarlottaVance said:

Not just Britain making a Horlicks of Brexit:

http://blogs.lse.ac.uk/brexit/2018/05/21/misguiding-britain-the-eus-brexit-mistakes-are-many/

http://blogs.lse.ac.uk/brexit/2018/05/30/refusing-to-dance-to-a-brexit-tune-how-the-eu-has-misinterpreted-britains-vote-to-leave/

Agree completely: both the UK and the EU have damaged themselves in the Brexit process.

They have seen Brexit as a one-off transaction, and have determined to nickle and dime us. Their failure to realise that our long-term strategic interests align, and that we should be close allies will cost them dear.

Our error was to fail to realise that the EU felt like a dumped girlfriend. Publicly gloating that our exit would cause "the whole house of cards to collapse" was unlikely to put the EU in a frame of mind to smooth our exit.

We have, belatedly, realised our errors. I do not believe the EU has (yet) realised theirs.

I don’t see any evidence that Leavers have learned this lesson. Only this week all the usual suspects were pronouncing the imminent demise of the EU over Italy.

The Euro won't collapse imminently. But you just watch how many blind-eyes are turned to the Italians when they break EU economic rules and go hard after the Romanian immigrants. Anything to keep their mess of a project together.

Meanwhile, Europhiles will point with glee at every Brexit technicality.

williamglenn

rcs1000 said:

David_Evershed said:

AlastairMeeks said:

It looks like Theresa May wants the DUP to vote for a customs union. It’s hard to see another explanation for the government’s floated proposal.

Gov't demonstarting they have scrapped the bottom of the barrel to find solutions that the EU might agree to. All to no avail - which leaves going for WTO terms, which is where we should have started negotiations.

We should have started building border infrastructure and hiring staff the day after the Brexit vote.

Where do you put the infrastructure for the border with Ireland? It's an absolutely absurd suggestion that would have simply brought all the fundamental problems with Brexit to a head much quicker, in a more febrile domestic political environment.

Populist, heal thyself.

Fenster

Alanbrooke said:

I wonder if Angie is regretting going for that 4th term?

Minority government
Lowest polls in ages
Immigration scandal
Diesel Scandal
Italy
Spain
Brexit
Trump

Hard to see much upside for her

She's got the 100th anniversary of the end of WW1 coming up.

David_Evershed

Alanbrooke said:

I wonder if Angie is regretting going for that 4th term?

Minority government
Lowest polls in ages
Immigration scandal
Diesel Scandal
Italy
Spain
Brexit
Trump

Hard to see much upside for her

Edit - Deletd

AndyJS

Rolf Degen on political echo chambers in the modern family:

https://twitter.com/DegenRolf/status/1002535110875508737

Scott_P

https://twitter.com/davidschneider/status/1002457380460822528

rottenborough

As I said at 8am this morning. DD's plan would not make lunchtime.

AlastairMeeks

Fenster said:

AlastairMeeks said:

rcs1000 said:

CarlottaVance said:

Not just Britain making a Horlicks of Brexit:

http://blogs.lse.ac.uk/brexit/2018/05/21/misguiding-britain-the-eus-brexit-mistakes-are-many/

http://blogs.lse.ac.uk/brexit/2018/05/30/refusing-to-dance-to-a-brexit-tune-how-the-eu-has-misinterpreted-britains-vote-to-leave/

Agree completely: both the UK and the EU have damaged themselves in the Brexit process.

They have seen Brexit as a one-off transaction, and have determined to nickle and dime us. Their failure to realise that our long-term strategic interests align, and that we should be close allies will cost them dear.

Our error was to fail to realise that the EU felt like a dumped girlfriend. Publicly gloating that our exit would cause "the whole house of cards to collapse" was unlikely to put the EU in a frame of mind to smooth our exit.

We have, belatedly, realised our errors. I do not believe the EU has (yet) realised theirs.

I don’t see any evidence that Leavers have learned this lesson. Only this week all the usual suspects were pronouncing the imminent demise of the EU over Italy.

The Euro won't collapse imminently. But you just watch how many blind-eyes are turned to the Italians when they break EU economic rules and go hard after the Romanian immigrants. Anything to keep their mess of a project together.

Meanwhile, Europhiles will point with glee at every Brexit technicality.

The Italians have certainly chosen a very good moment to go off the reservation.

rcs1000

Alanbrooke said:

I wonder if Angie is regretting going for that 4th term?

Minority government
Lowest polls in ages
Immigration scandal
Diesel Scandal
Italy
Spain
Brexit
Trump

Hard to see much upside for her

Spain?

They've swapped one pro-EU PM for another. And the party leading in the polls there is even more pro-EU.

FrancisUrquhart

felix said:

EXCLUSIVE: Bar Staff At Jezfest Will Work Unpaid order-order.com/2018/06/01/bar-staff-will-work-free-labour-live/ …

Why would anybody volunteer? And why would an organisation have such a weird business model for commercial festivals? It’s hardly the free local village fete organised by the WI.

Alanbrooke

williamglenn said:

rcs1000 said:

David_Evershed said:

AlastairMeeks said:

It looks like Theresa May wants the DUP to vote for a customs union. It’s hard to see another explanation for the government’s floated proposal.

Gov't demonstarting they have scrapped the bottom of the barrel to find solutions that the EU might agree to. All to no avail - which leaves going for WTO terms, which is where we should have started negotiations.

We should have started building border infrastructure and hiring staff the day after the Brexit vote.

Where do you put the infrastructure for the border with Ireland? It's an absolutely absurd suggestion that would have simply brought all the fundamental problems with Brexit to a head much quicker, in a more febrile domestic political environment.

Populist, heal thyself.

total guff as ever

the majority of trade passes over a handful of roads, the rest is just a simple enforcement matter. The vast majority of companies will comply with the law because that's what honest people do.

The crooks will try to exploit the border, but then theyre doing that today something that doesn't appear to worry you.

Alanbrooke

rcs1000 said:

Alanbrooke said:

I wonder if Angie is regretting going for that 4th term?

Minority government
Lowest polls in ages
Immigration scandal
Diesel Scandal
Italy
Spain
Brexit
Trump

Hard to see much upside for her

Spain?

They've swapped one pro-EU PM for another. And the party leading in the polls there is even more pro-EU.

lets see how the currency markets react

Anazina

As I have said several times, Brexit isn’t a policy, it’s a joke.

Sandpit

felix said:

EXCLUSIVE: Bar Staff At Jezfest Will Work Unpaid https://order-order.com/2018/06/01/bar-staff-will-work-free-labour-live/ …

Well at least it detracts from their interns not getting paid.

Fenster

Re the cricket at Headingley, the way the ball was moving around earlier I said 175 would be a competitive score.

Pakistan have 174.

rcs1000

Fenster said:

AlastairMeeks said:

rcs1000 said:

CarlottaVance said:

Not just Britain making a Horlicks of Brexit:

http://blogs.lse.ac.uk/brexit/2018/05/21/misguiding-britain-the-eus-brexit-mistakes-are-many/

http://blogs.lse.ac.uk/brexit/2018/05/30/refusing-to-dance-to-a-brexit-tune-how-the-eu-has-misinterpreted-britains-vote-to-leave/

Agree completely: both the UK and the EU have damaged themselves in the Brexit process.

They have seen Brexit as a one-off transaction, and have determined to nickle and dime us. Their failure to realise that our long-term strategic interests align, and that we should be close allies will cost them dear.

Our error was to fail to realise that the EU felt like a dumped girlfriend. Publicly gloating that our exit would cause "the whole house of cards to collapse" was unlikely to put the EU in a frame of mind to smooth our exit.

We have, belatedly, realised our errors. I do not believe the EU has (yet) realised theirs.

I don’t see any evidence that Leavers have learned this lesson. Only this week all the usual suspects were pronouncing the imminent demise of the EU over Italy.

The Euro won't collapse imminently. But you just watch how many blind-eyes are turned to the Italians when they break EU economic rules and go hard after the Romanian immigrants. Anything to keep their mess of a project together.

Meanwhile, Europhiles will point with glee at every Brexit technicality.

I thought the Italians were more concerned with the illegal immigrants from North Africa and Albania?

williamglenn

Alanbrooke said:

williamglenn said:

rcs1000 said:

David_Evershed said:

AlastairMeeks said:

It looks like Theresa May wants the DUP to vote for a customs union. It’s hard to see another explanation for the government’s floated proposal.

Gov't demonstarting they have scrapped the bottom of the barrel to find solutions that the EU might agree to. All to no avail - which leaves going for WTO terms, which is where we should have started negotiations.

We should have started building border infrastructure and hiring staff the day after the Brexit vote.

Where do you put the infrastructure for the border with Ireland? It's an absolutely absurd suggestion that would have simply brought all the fundamental problems with Brexit to a head much quicker, in a more febrile domestic political environment.

Populist, heal thyself.

total guff as ever

the majority of trade passes over a handful of roads, the rest is just a simple enforcement matter. The vast majority of companies will comply with the law because that's what honest people do.

The crooks will try to exploit the border, but then theyre doing that today something that doesn't appear to worry you.

That doesn't make any difference. Think of the politics of the UK building just one customs post on a road between Ireland and Northern Ireland simply in order to attempt to blackmail the EU. On top of that, @rcs1000 is suggesting doing this while Obama was still President and the full weight of US diplomacy would have been behind Ireland and the EU's position.

anothernick

williamglenn said:

rcs1000 said:

CarlottaVance said:

Not just Britain making a Horlicks of Brexit:

http://blogs.lse.ac.uk/brexit/2018/05/21/misguiding-britain-the-eus-brexit-mistakes-are-many/

http://blogs.lse.ac.uk/brexit/2018/05/30/refusing-to-dance-to-a-brexit-tune-how-the-eu-has-misinterpreted-britains-vote-to-leave/

Agree completely: both the UK and the EU have damaged themselves in the Brexit process.

They have seen Brexit as a one-off transaction, and have determined to nickle and dime us. Their failure to realise that our long-term strategic interests align, and that we should be close allies will cost them dear.

Our error was to fail to realise that the EU felt like a dumped girlfriend. Publicly gloating that our exit would cause "the whole house of cards to collapse" was unlikely to put the EU in a frame of mind to smooth our exit.

We have, belatedly, realised our errors. I do not believe the EU has (yet) realised theirs.

This is completely wrong. The EU's strategy has always been focused on the long term, from a position of understanding that a) the UK would always need the EU for as long as the EU exists, and b) anything decided during the Brexit process could create a precedent or playbook that could be used at some point in the future in circumstances that may not be so relatively benign.

The mistake that Brexiteers made was in treating the Brexit vote as final and not merely a point in time. The fact that Britain's long-term strategic interests align with those of the EU is precisely why they don't need to bend over backwards to accommodate Brexit. In the end, we have no other viable strategic option.

The EU has three key priorities in the Brexit talks. In order of importance (to the EU) they are

1) Maintain a united front
2) Ensure that the UK is seen to take an economic and political hit as a consequence of leaving and
3) Agree a "good deal" (for the EU)

They have already achieved nos 1 and 2 far more successfully than many people expected, not least because of the obvious incompetence and disunity on the part of the UK government. They have not achieved 3, but 3 is less important to them than 2 - if the UK cannot offer a coherent position they will not be able to do a deal. This will have negative consequences for both sides, but they will be much more negative for the UK than the EU.

Alanbrooke

williamglenn said:

Alanbrooke said:

williamglenn said:

rcs1000 said:

David_Evershed said:

AlastairMeeks said:

It looks like Theresa May wants the DUP to vote for a customs union. It’s hard to see another explanation for the government’s floated proposal.

Gov't demonstarting they have scrapped the bottom of the barrel to find solutions that the EU might agree to. All to no avail - which leaves going for WTO terms, which is where we should have started negotiations.

We should have started building border infrastructure and hiring staff the day after the Brexit vote.

Where do you put the infrastructure for the border with Ireland? It's an absolutely absurd suggestion that would have simply brought all the fundamental problems with Brexit to a head much quicker, in a more febrile domestic political environment.

Populist, heal thyself.

total guff as ever

the majority of trade passes over a handful of roads, the rest is just a simple enforcement matter. The vast majority of companies will comply with the law because that's what honest people do.

The crooks will try to exploit the border, but then theyre doing that today something that doesn't appear to worry you.

That doesn't make any difference. Think of the politics of the UK building just one customs post on a road between Ireland and Northern Ireland simply in order to attempt to blackmail the EU. On top of that, @rcs1000 is suggesting doing this while Obama was still President and the full weight of US diplomacy would have been behind Ireland and the EU's position.

I think rcs is correct on his

TGOHF

Alanbrooke said:

williamglenn said:

rcs1000 said:

David_Evershed said:

AlastairMeeks said:

It looks like Theresa May wants the DUP to vote for a customs union. It’s hard to see another explanation for the government’s floated proposal.

Gov't demonstarting they have scrapped the bottom of the barrel to find solutions that the EU might agree to. All to no avail - which leaves going for WTO terms, which is where we should have started negotiations.

We should have started building border infrastructure and hiring staff the day after the Brexit vote.

Where do you put the infrastructure for the border with Ireland? It's an absolutely absurd suggestion that would have simply brought all the fundamental problems with Brexit to a head much quicker, in a more febrile domestic political environment.

Populist, heal thyself.

total guff as ever

the majority of trade passes over a handful of roads, the rest is just a simple enforcement matter. The vast majority of companies will comply with the law because that's what honest people do.

The crooks will try to exploit the border, but then theyre doing that today something that doesn't appear to worry you.

The EU have done a good job of framing any new "HARD" border as a problem from the Uk.

DD should be reiterating that the Uk has no plans for anything bar the existing cameras -

"EU build a fence if you want to... !" should be the Sun headline he's aiming for.

rcs1000

Alanbrooke said:

rcs1000 said:

Alanbrooke said:

I wonder if Angie is regretting going for that 4th term?

Minority government
Lowest polls in ages
Immigration scandal
Diesel Scandal
Italy
Spain
Brexit
Trump

Hard to see much upside for her

Spain?

They've swapped one pro-EU PM for another. And the party leading in the polls there is even more pro-EU.

lets see how the currency markets react

The currency markets, I would venture, are more interested in

- the direction of US interest rates
- a potential trade war
and
- Italy

I don't see Spain as a particular issue for the EU or Germany right now.

Alanbrooke

rcs1000 said:

Alanbrooke said:

rcs1000 said:

Alanbrooke said:

I wonder if Angie is regretting going for that 4th term?

Minority government
Lowest polls in ages
Immigration scandal
Diesel Scandal
Italy
Spain
Brexit
Trump

Hard to see much upside for her

Spain?

They've swapped one pro-EU PM for another. And the party leading in the polls there is even more pro-EU.

lets see how the currency markets react

The currency markets, I would venture, are more interested in

- the direction of US interest rates
- a potential trade war
and
- Italy

I don't see Spain as a particular issue for the EU or Germany right now.

if Italy gets away with it I cant see Spain still accepting austerity

Fenster

rcs1000 said:

Fenster said:

AlastairMeeks said:

rcs1000 said:

CarlottaVance said:

Not just Britain making a Horlicks of Brexit:

http://blogs.lse.ac.uk/brexit/2018/05/21/misguiding-britain-the-eus-brexit-mistakes-are-many/

http://blogs.lse.ac.uk/brexit/2018/05/30/refusing-to-dance-to-a-brexit-tune-how-the-eu-has-misinterpreted-britains-vote-to-leave/

Agree completely: both the UK and the EU have damaged themselves in the Brexit process.

They have seen Brexit as a one-off transaction, and have determined to nickle and dime us. Their failure to realise that our long-term strategic interests align, and that we should be close allies will cost them dear.

Our error was to fail to realise that the EU felt like a dumped girlfriend. Publicly gloating that our exit would cause "the whole house of cards to collapse" was unlikely to put the EU in a frame of mind to smooth our exit.

We have, belatedly, realised our errors. I do not believe the EU has (yet) realised theirs.

I don’t see any evidence that Leavers have learned this lesson. Only this week all the usual suspects were pronouncing the imminent demise of the EU over Italy.

The Euro won't collapse imminently. But you just watch how many blind-eyes are turned to the Italians when they break EU economic rules and go hard after the Romanian immigrants. Anything to keep their mess of a project together.

Meanwhile, Europhiles will point with glee at every Brexit technicality.

I thought the Italians were more concerned with the illegal immigrants from North Africa and Albania?

Both, apparently. I'd read they were struggling to accommodate 600,000 low skilled from Romania, a few hundred thousand from Albania and 750,000 displaced North Africans.

Taking the 'xenophobia' out of it, it must be a tough ask for a country to deal with such an influx. Particularly when the southern half of Italy is a relatively poor area of Europe.

You can understand the anger at the EU over its failure to help. Incidentally, it's British and Italian ships doing most of the rescue work in the Med.

logical_song

If only David Davis had been able to talk beforehand to the DUP members who are supporting the minority government.

Scott_P

https://twitter.com/SamCoatesTimes/status/1002558498696200192

rcs1000

Fenster said:

rcs1000 said:

Fenster said:

AlastairMeeks said:

rcs1000 said:

CarlottaVance said:

Not just Britain making a Horlicks of Brexit:

http://blogs.lse.ac.uk/brexit/2018/05/21/misguiding-britain-the-eus-brexit-mistakes-are-many/

http://blogs.lse.ac.uk/brexit/2018/05/30/refusing-to-dance-to-a-brexit-tune-how-the-eu-has-misinterpreted-britains-vote-to-leave/

Agree completely: both the UK and the EU have damaged themselves in the Brexit process.

They have seen Brexit as a one-off transaction, and have determined to nickle and dime us. Their failure to realise that our long-term strategic interests align, and that we should be close allies will cost them dear.

Our error was to fail to realise that the EU felt like a dumped girlfriend. Publicly gloating that our exit would cause "the whole house of cards to collapse" was unlikely to put the EU in a frame of mind to smooth our exit.

We have, belatedly, realised our errors. I do not believe the EU has (yet) realised theirs.

I don’t see any evidence that Leavers have learned this lesson. Only this week all the usual suspects were pronouncing the imminent demise of the EU over Italy.

The Euro won't collapse imminently. But you just watch how many blind-eyes are turned to the Italians when they break EU economic rules and go hard after the Romanian immigrants. Anything to keep their mess of a project together.

Meanwhile, Europhiles will point with glee at every Brexit technicality.

I thought the Italians were more concerned with the illegal immigrants from North Africa and Albania?

Both, apparently. I'd read they were struggling to accommodate 600,000 low skilled from Romania, a few hundred thousand from Albania and 750,000 displaced North Africans.

Taking the 'xenophobia' out of it, it must be a tough ask for a country to deal with such an influx. Particularly when the southern half of Italy is a relatively poor area of Europe.

You can understand the anger at the EU over its failure to help. Incidentally, it's British and Italian ships doing most of the rescue work in the Med.

The Italians have every right to be furious with the EU in general, and Germany in particular, regarding North African migrants.

Germany effectively left Italy with a huge problem.

That being said, I do find it interesting that Spain - which has a much healthier economy than Italy - manages to do a much better job of discouraging illegal immigration from North Africa.

eek

In other cheery news today - this tweet (but read the entire thread) explains Trump's worldview.

https://twitter.com/fawfulfan/status/1002502139367837702

rottenborough

Sandpit said:

felix said:

EXCLUSIVE: Bar Staff At Jezfest Will Work Unpaid https://order-order.com/2018/06/01/bar-staff-will-work-free-labour-live/ …

Well at least it detracts from their interns not getting paid.

More like a form of Absurdist theatre.

Anazina

rcs1000 said:

David_Evershed said:

AlastairMeeks said:

It looks like Theresa May wants the DUP to vote for a customs union. It’s hard to see another explanation for the government’s floated proposal.

Gov't demonstarting they have scrapped the bottom of the barrel to find solutions that the EU might agree to. All to no avail - which leaves going for WTO terms, which is where we should have started negotiations.

We should have started building border infrastructure and hiring staff the day after the Brexit vote.

Utter rubbish. You are a highly intelligent guy and the son of Michael ‘The Don’ Smithson, but you sir clearly know nothing about Irish politics. Given a large proportion of the population of Ireland refuses to recognise Northern Ireland as an entity and considers the British to be illegally occupying a nation state, putting up any border infrastructure is likely to lead to a regression to the Troubles of the 1980s. You and your fellow Brexiteers should have thought about this before you launched your deranged project.

rottenborough

Blue on blue attacks?

https://twitter.com/SamCoatesTimes/status/1002559105033261060

logical_song

Will technology get us off the Northern Ireland hook?

"As Brexit looms, it's clear the tech to solve the Irish border problem is either untested or imaginary"
http://www.wired.co.uk/article/irish-border-brexit-tech

... and we all know how successful large government technology projects have been.

rpjs

Anazina said:

rcs1000 said:

David_Evershed said:

AlastairMeeks said:

It looks like Theresa May wants the DUP to vote for a customs union. It’s hard to see another explanation for the government’s floated proposal.

Gov't demonstarting they have scrapped the bottom of the barrel to find solutions that the EU might agree to. All to no avail - which leaves going for WTO terms, which is where we should have started negotiations.

We should have started building border infrastructure and hiring staff the day after the Brexit vote.

Utter rubbish. You are a highly intelligent guy and the son of Michael ‘The Don’ Smithson, but you sir clearly know nothing about Irish politics. Given a large proportion of the population of Ireland refuses to recognise Northern Ireland as an entity and considers the British to be illegally occupying a nation state, putting up any border infrastructure is likely to lead to a regression to the Troubles of the 1980s. You and your fellow Brexiteers should have thought about this before you launched your deranged project.

Hear! Hear!

rottenborough

https://twitter.com/Andrew_Adonis/status/1002520133380771840

Anazina

logical_song said:

If only David Davis had been able to talk beforehand to the DUP members who are supporting the minority government.

No surrender to the DUP?

A bunch of deranged bigoted orangemen are running the country.

Brexit is a joke. A very bad, unfunny joke.

Fenster

@RCS
The Italians have every right to be furious with the EU in general, and Germany in particular, regarding North African migrants.

Germany effectively left Italy with a huge problem.

That being said, I do find it interesting that Spain - which has a much healthier economy than Italy - manages to do a much better job of discouraging illegal immigration from North Africa.

.........................................................................................

That is a very good point.

As an aside on human displacement, I'm a South Wales valley boy. Back in the mid 90s we had about a dozen young Bosnian men placed here. They didn't look in great shape and were housed in the old children's home in our village. The council gave them stamps (not money) to spend in the shops. It didn't take long before the older schoolkids sussed that the Bosnians could buy fags with their stamps (they weren't allowed to buy booze) which they could then sell to us schoolkids. We'd get fags at half price and they'd get converted cash. A splendid little racket.

It wasn't long before parents and villagers were up in arms about it, but I always marvelled at the power of survival instinct. Those poor boys couldn't speak a word of English, were penniless in an alien land, but within days had managed to set up a nice bit of business.

Us scally schoolkids were gutted when they were moved on

TGOHF

logical_song said:

Will technology get us off the Northern Ireland hook?

"As Brexit looms, it's clear the tech to solve the Irish border problem is either untested or imaginary"
http://www.wired.co.uk/article/irish-border-brexit-tech

... and we all know how successful large government technology projects have been.

Hence why there wont be a border.

The Uk just needs to call the EU's bluff.

logical_song

rottenborough said:

https://twitter.com/Andrew_Adonis/status/1002520133380771840

It's almost as though Cameron never thought he'd lose the referendum, so didn't plan for it and now Theresa doesn't think we'll actually leave and so isn't planning for it.

williamglenn

TGOHF said:

logical_song said:

Will technology get us off the Northern Ireland hook?

"As Brexit looms, it's clear the tech to solve the Irish border problem is either untested or imaginary"
http://www.wired.co.uk/article/irish-border-brexit-tech

... and we all know how successful large government technology projects have been.

Hence why there wont be a border.

The Uk just needs to call the EU's bluff.

Of course there won't be a border. The bluff is leaving the single market and customs union.

TGOHF

Anazina said:

logical_song said:

If only David Davis had been able to talk beforehand to the DUP members who are supporting the minority government.

A bunch of deranged bigoted orangemen are running the country.

Lovely stuff from our resident left wingers - hate poured down on a whole community.

logical_song

TGOHF said:

logical_song said:

Will technology get us off the Northern Ireland hook?

"As Brexit looms, it's clear the tech to solve the Irish border problem is either untested or imaginary"
http://www.wired.co.uk/article/irish-border-brexit-tech

... and we all know how successful large government technology projects have been.

Hence why there wont be a border.

The Uk just needs to call the EU's bluff.

How does that work?

RoyalBlue

Anazina said:

logical_song said:

If only David Davis had been able to talk beforehand to the DUP members who are supporting the minority government.

No surrender to the DUP?

A bunch of deranged bigoted orangemen are running the country.

Brexit is a joke. A very bad, unfunny joke.

If Home Rule has gone ahead I have no doubt that all Ireland would still be part of the U.K. It’s certainly something to ponder in these unsettled times.

rcs1000

eek said:

In other cheery news today - this tweet (but read the entire thread) explains Trump's worldview.

https://twitter.com/fawfulfan/status/1002502139367837702

Mercedes has ten US plants.

There's a certain irony that Trump has singled out the German car maker that is probably most committed to manufacturing in the US.

Anazina

TGOHF said:

Anazina said:

logical_song said:

If only David Davis had been able to talk beforehand to the DUP members who are supporting the minority government.

A bunch of deranged bigoted orangemen are running the country.

Hate poured down on a whole community.

A fair analysis of DUP attitudes to catholics, fair play.

TGOHF

Anazina said:

TGOHF said:

Anazina said:

logical_song said:

If only David Davis had been able to talk beforehand to the DUP members who are supporting the minority government.

A bunch of deranged bigoted orangemen are running the country.

Hate poured down on a whole community.

A fair analysis of DUP attitudes to catholics, fair play.

Ah whataboutery - the debating stance of the clueless.

logical_song

RoyalBlue said:

Anazina said:

logical_song said:

If only David Davis had been able to talk beforehand to the DUP members who are supporting the minority government.

No surrender to the DUP?

A bunch of deranged bigoted orangemen are running the country.

Brexit is a joke. A very bad, unfunny joke.

If Home Rule has gone ahead I have no doubt that all Ireland would still be part of the U.K. It’s certainly something to ponder in these unsettled times.

Do you know anything about Ireland's history?

williamglenn

rcs1000 said:

eek said:

In other cheery news today - this tweet (but read the entire thread) explains Trump's worldview.

https://twitter.com/fawfulfan/status/1002502139367837702

Mercedes has ten US plants.

There's a certain irony that Trump has singled out the German car maker that is probably most committed to manufacturing in the US.

Clearly the answer is for them to licence the Trump brand and flatten out the top part of their logo so it looks like a T. A win-win, and he'd happily wipe out their competition.

TGOHF

logical_song said:

TGOHF said:

logical_song said:

Will technology get us off the Northern Ireland hook?

"As Brexit looms, it's clear the tech to solve the Irish border problem is either untested or imaginary"
http://www.wired.co.uk/article/irish-border-brexit-tech

... and we all know how successful large government technology projects have been.

Hence why there wont be a border.

The Uk just needs to call the EU's bluff.

How does that work?

Just don't build a hard border between Ulster and ROI.

If the EU wants to blow up its balance of trade advantage by blocking Calais then lets watch the lorries pile up across France.

JosiasJessop

logical_song said:

Will technology get us off the Northern Ireland hook?

"As Brexit looms, it's clear the tech to solve the Irish border problem is either untested or imaginary"
http://www.wired.co.uk/article/irish-border-brexit-tech

... and we all know how successful large government technology projects have been.

People who scream about how technology will fix a certain problem tend to be either not understand technology, or work for companies that want to make and sell the technology. Sadly, all too often the latter are snake-oil salesmen.

Witness all the current hysteria over how driverless cars will make all truck drivers redundant in ten years (c) SeanT. Here's a hint: no, they won't.

Therefore, if someone offers a technological solution to a problem, make sure that it exists and has been proven. If it does not exist, be very, very wary: it *may* work, but probably won't. And if it does, expect to pay much more than they initially promise.

logical_song

TGOHF said:

logical_song said:

TGOHF said:

logical_song said:

Will technology get us off the Northern Ireland hook?

"As Brexit looms, it's clear the tech to solve the Irish border problem is either untested or imaginary"
http://www.wired.co.uk/article/irish-border-brexit-tech

... and we all know how successful large government technology projects have been.

Hence why there wont be a border.

The Uk just needs to call the EU's bluff.

How does that work?

Just don't build a hard border between Ulster and ROI.

If the EU wants to blow up its balance of trade advantage by blocking Calais then lets watch the lorries pile up across France.

If we diverge from the EU won't that make RoI / NI border a great place for smugglers?

Anazina

TGOHF said:

Anazina said:

TGOHF said:

Anazina said:

logical_song said:

If only David Davis had been able to talk beforehand to the DUP members who are supporting the minority government.

A bunch of deranged bigoted orangemen are running the country.

Hate poured down on a whole community.

A fair analysis of DUP attitudes to catholics, fair play.

Ah whataboutery - the debating stance of the clueless.

Stay loyal

https://goo.gl/images/B7tqoc

Stark_Dawning

What's DD playing at? Presumably the plan is to float an idea so ludicrous that thereafter remaining in the Customs Union seems the very encapsulation practicality and good sense. Trump's trade war has helped, making it all look a dark and friendless world out there. Theresa has looked at the Tory Leavers and realized she has to suck the lifeblood out of them.

Anazina

logical_song said:

RoyalBlue said:

Anazina said:

logical_song said:

If only David Davis had been able to talk beforehand to the DUP members who are supporting the minority government.

No surrender to the DUP?

A bunch of deranged bigoted orangemen are running the country.

Brexit is a joke. A very bad, unfunny joke.

If Home Rule has gone ahead I have no doubt that all Ireland would still be part of the U.K. It’s certainly something to ponder in these unsettled times.

Do you know anything about Ireland's history?

Your starting point on PB is that the PB Leavers are entirely ignorant of it.

Sandpit

logical_song said:

TGOHF said:

logical_song said:

TGOHF said:

logical_song said:

Will technology get us off the Northern Ireland hook?

"As Brexit looms, it's clear the tech to solve the Irish border problem is either untested or imaginary"
http://www.wired.co.uk/article/irish-border-brexit-tech

... and we all know how successful large government technology projects have been.

Hence why there wont be a border.

The Uk just needs to call the EU's bluff.

How does that work?

Just don't build a hard border between Ulster and ROI.

If the EU wants to blow up its balance of trade advantage by blocking Calais then lets watch the lorries pile up across France.

If we diverge from the EU won't that make RoI / NI border a great place for smugglers?

No worse than it is already, with petrol, alcohol, cigarettes all taxed differently, as well as different VAT rates on different products.

anothernick

Anazina said:

rcs1000 said:

David_Evershed said:

AlastairMeeks said:

It looks like Theresa May wants the DUP to vote for a customs union. It’s hard to see another explanation for the government’s floated proposal.

Gov't demonstarting they have scrapped the bottom of the barrel to find solutions that the EU might agree to. All to no avail - which leaves going for WTO terms, which is where we should have started negotiations.

We should have started building border infrastructure and hiring staff the day after the Brexit vote.

Utter rubbish. You are a highly intelligent guy and the son of Michael ‘The Don’ Smithson, but you sir clearly know nothing about Irish politics. Given a large proportion of the population of Ireland refuses to recognise Northern Ireland as an entity and considers the British to be illegally occupying a nation state, putting up any border infrastructure is likely to lead to a regression to the Troubles of the 1980s. You and your fellow Brexiteers should have thought about this before you launched your deranged project.

It would also be a breach of an international treaty (the GFA has the status of a treaty) on the part of the UK. How could the UK then convince the EU that it would abide by the terms of the withdrawal treaty?

Toms

Anazina said:

As I have said several times, Brexit isn’t a policy, it’s a joke.

If only.
It's a kind of anti-Houdini situation wherein we see how tangled we can get.

Morris_Dancer

Mr. Song, indeed, the complacency of Cameron and dithering (whether intentional to run down the clock, or not) of May is unimpressive.

Mr. rpjs, et al., if you believe terrorists ought to determine our policy, that's up to you. Personally, I'm not a fan of appeasing murderers, nor of those who seek to provoke as much discontent as possible to try and bolster their own political perspective.

Sandpit

rcs1000 said:

eek said:

In other cheery news today - this tweet (but read the entire thread) explains Trump's worldview.

https://twitter.com/fawfulfan/status/1002502139367837702

Mercedes has ten US plants.

There's a certain irony that Trump has singled out the German car maker that is probably most committed to manufacturing in the US.

Yes, that was a silly example to choose. I’d guess that only the high end S-class and AMG models sold in the US are made in Germany, Mercedes is quite likely to be a net exporter of cars from the US.

tlg86

eek said:

In other cheery news today - this tweet (but read the entire thread) explains Trump's worldview.

https://twitter.com/fawfulfan/status/1002502139367837702

To a certain extent all transactions are a con:

https://mobile.twitter.com/fawfulfan/status/1002502747206422529