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politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » The language of priorities. What we talk about when we talk ab

SystemSystem Posts: 11,682
edited June 2018 in General

imagepoliticalbetting.com » Blog Archive » The language of priorities. What we talk about when we talk about infrastructure

I don't think you could better (or worsen) the optics for people in the north. Approving a third runway for Heathrow on the day our transport infrastructure grinds to a halt. Up yours, northerners.

Read the full story here


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    JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 38,997
    edited June 2018
    From the IPRR's tweet:

    "Rail chaos today is partly due to decades of underinvestment. Last year we found that the North of England has been underfunded by £59 BILLION relative to London over the past 10 years #OneNorth"

    More accurately, the chaos today is due to investment. If money had not been thrown at Network Rail for new infrastructure, they would not have been able to muck up the delivery so much ...

    Edit: and first.
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    JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 38,997
    Thanks Alastair. An excellent article IMO.
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    MyBurningEarsMyBurningEars Posts: 3,651
    edited June 2018
    The IPPR tweet is particularly stupid because "per capita" spending means very little in places where large parts of the workforce commute in. Not sure what the correct solution to that is - but anyone who has ever looked at "per capita" statistics for the City of London (based on residents) knows how daft this can be.

    Also, you don't have to live in London to realise that certain places, and London is definitely one of them, simply need more transport spending. It's big bucks but gets a bigger bang, and if London's economy froze to a halt it would end up having severe fiscal consequences for the poorer parts of the UK anyway. We should accept this in precisely the same way we should recognise that eg rural Cornwall has higher delivery costs per capita for a wide range of services because of the challenges of serving a low-density, elderly population in a region with - as economic necessity dictates - relatively less generous transport links, rather than demand that public spending on people on the sticks should be cut back to match that in the cities because otherwise there is a contrived "gap" that needs "catching up"...

    Obviously there is something to be said for spreading investment around more, thinking more strategically, finding a weighting method that doesn't give undue attention to "glamour" projects... but per capita comparisons to London are and always will be daft.

    Lots of sympathy for the Centre For Towns tweet. Grudgingly I must accept there may be something in the "Regional Mayors" idea, as an extension of metro mayors, that might help with connectivity on the kind of scale that is too big for local councils but too small to interest central government. I'd probably be more sold on the idea of elected Regional Transport Boards/Regional Transport Commissioners cos I'm less convinced by many of the other bundled mayoral powers.
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    JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 38,997
    What infrastructure needs is champions: people who can realistically 'talk to power' and keep on pressing and looking for opportunities.

    They can be people in power: Osborne drove the Northern Powerhouse forwards, and now he is not there that concept is dying. They can be ordinary souls: the reopening of part of the Waverley Line was initially driven by some 'normal' people. The East-West rail project was likewise a small but well-focused campaign for a difficult project that has already been partially achieved.

    Sadly, far too often people who have good ideas for infrastructure projects do not know how to subtly and continually apply pressure, and some are frankly in the batsh*t insane category: they have good ideas but just end up alienating everyone.
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    NigelbNigelb Posts: 62,601
    There’s a reason why Crossrail 2 is on the agenda at a time when the TransPennine Express upgrade is apparently being shelved...

    And it’s likely not an economic one. The costs are in the region of £30bn and £5bn respectively. The decision on the new transpennine route was a disgrace.

    The point of infrastructure projects being judged on return on investment is a strong one, but that is quite clearly not the only metric. The development of poorer regions is quite clearly not a significant metric, either.

    A good article, though.
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    JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 38,997
    Nigelb said:

    There’s a reason why Crossrail 2 is on the agenda at a time when the TransPennine Express upgrade is apparently being shelved...

    And it’s likely not an economic one. The costs are in the region of £30bn and £5bn respectively. The decision on the new transpennine route was a disgrace.

    The point of infrastructure projects being judged on return on investment is a strong one, but that is quite clearly not the only metric. The development of poorer regions is quite clearly not a significant metric, either.

    A good article, though.

    The big issues for TPE upgrades are:

    1) Unbelievable costs. Costings are by, and delivery would be by, Network Rail, who have f***ed up the GWML upgrade to a hideous extent. Witness also the cancellation of much of the MML upgrade. When it comes to major enhancements, NR appear unable to get anywhere near realistic costings.

    2) HS3. If this goes ahead, then any TPE upgrades would need to be altered to best fit the new infrastructure arrangements.

    It should also be noted that Crossrail was partly paid for by a business tax, and Crossrail 2 might be partially paid for by a property tax. Some other infrastructure projects might be more likely to go ahead if they had similar arrangements, but that's not much use when the main aim is regeneration of a poor area ...
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    OblitusSumMeOblitusSumMe Posts: 9,143
    Is it also the case that the UK simply doesn't spend as much on infrastructure as other northern European countries?

    If the overall pot is reduced then decisions on where to allocate the spending will have to be more ruthless. As someone with prior experience of commuting in London I was really surprised at how easy it is to find a seat on the Edinburgh-Glasgow trains. I do think that you can make a case that London needs the spending more simply on the basis of need.
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    tlg86tlg86 Posts: 25,190
    The North certainly has better roads than the South. Incidentally, if this new runway (is it getting a new terminal too?) happens at Heathrow, we should build a new motorway from the M25 at Cobham to the M3, M4 and M40 meaning that if you're going to Birmingham and the Northwest you don't have to go on the M25 past Heathrow.
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    not_on_firenot_on_fire Posts: 4,341
    Nigelb said:

    There’s a reason why Crossrail 2 is on the agenda at a time when the TransPennine Express upgrade is apparently being shelved...

    And it’s likely not an economic one. The costs are in the region of £30bn and £5bn respectively. The decision on the new transpennine route was a disgrace.

    The point of infrastructure projects being judged on return on investment is a strong one, but that is quite clearly not the only metric. The development of poorer regions is quite clearly not a significant metric, either.

    A good article, though.

    Well, the business case can include the social benefits brought by the scheme. DfT appraisals of the benefit:costs ratio already include non-direct aspects, eg the economic value of reduced pollution and carbon emissions brought by introduction of a new rail scheme due to people taking the train instead of driving.
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    daodaodaodao Posts: 821
    When investment/government expenditure is focussed too narrowly on successful areas/groups, in a "democratic" system, the electorate may revolt. If carelessly handled by the elite, this leads to successful populist or separatist movements. Brexit is but one example.
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    Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 60,983
    Good morning, everyone.

    Gosh. The national media's remembered there's a north :p

    More seriously, last year there was a graphic (I linked it here at the time) indicating that of bigwig transport decision-makers, 9/10 lived in London/the south-east and I think the other lived in the south too. Even with the best will in the world, that's going to skew decision-making. If you shoved them all in Cumbria they'd probably discover the importance of maintaining rural roads.
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    JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 38,997

    Good morning, everyone.

    Gosh. The national media's remembered there's a north :p

    More seriously, last year there was a graphic (I linked it here at the time) indicating that of bigwig transport decision-makers, 9/10 lived in London/the south-east and I think the other lived in the south too. Even with the best will in the world, that's going to skew decision-making. If you shoved them all in Cumbria they'd probably discover the importance of maintaining rural roads.

    Good morning!

    Gosh, more Yorkshire whinging. ;)
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    Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 60,983
    Mr. Jessop, Cumbria isn't in Yorkshire. You silly sausage.
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    JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 38,997

    Mr. Jessop, Cumbria isn't in Yorkshire. You silly sausage.

    And you're not in Cumbria ...
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    GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 19,079
    edited June 2018
    We need to dual or even triple the A1 north of Newcastle all the way to the Scottish border. Northumberland is ripe for growth, it just needs the infastructure first. There’s room for whole new cities within easy reach of Edinburgh and Newcastle airports and an ambudance of natural resources.

    Connecting Blyth and Cramlington to the Metro network would also do wonders for the often forgotton North East.
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    SandpitSandpit Posts: 49,897

    Nigelb said:

    There’s a reason why Crossrail 2 is on the agenda at a time when the TransPennine Express upgrade is apparently being shelved...

    And it’s likely not an economic one. The costs are in the region of £30bn and £5bn respectively. The decision on the new transpennine route was a disgrace.

    The point of infrastructure projects being judged on return on investment is a strong one, but that is quite clearly not the only metric. The development of poorer regions is quite clearly not a significant metric, either.

    A good article, though.

    Well, the business case can include the social benefits brought by the scheme. DfT appraisals of the benefit:costs ratio already include non-direct aspects, eg the economic value of reduced pollution and carbon emissions brought by introduction of a new rail scheme due to people taking the train instead of driving.
    Indeed. And a new runway is much easier to justify, if it means that several hundred planes a day don’t spend 20 minutes each going around in circles burning fuel while waiting for a slot to land.
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    JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 38,997
    Off-topic:

    More infrastructure for Orkney ...

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-44368813

    :)
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    SandpitSandpit Posts: 49,897
    tlg86 said:

    The North certainly has better roads than the South. Incidentally, if this new runway (is it getting a new terminal too?) happens at Heathrow, we should build a new motorway from the M25 at Cobham to the M3, M4 and M40 meaning that if you're going to Birmingham and the Northwest you don't have to go on the M25 past Heathrow.

    ISTR a couple of decades ago, a plan to link the M3 and M4 with a new road east of Bracknell from M3 J3 to M4 J8/9. The problem is that there’s a lot of very influential people with very expensive houses in places like Ascot and Winkfield, who didn’t want a trunk road within five miles of where they lived!
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    AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 23,754

    We need to dual or even triple the A1 north of Newcastle all the way to the Scottish border. Northumberland is ripe for growth, it just needs the infastructure first. There’s room for whole new cities within easy reach of Edinburgh and Newcastle airports and an ambudance of natural resources.

    Connecting Blyth and Cramlington to the Metro network would also do wonders for the often forgotton North East.

    why stop at the border ? It needs to go right up to Edinburgh. It's ridiculous that two capital cities have no motorway to join them.
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    DavidLDavidL Posts: 51,296
    Superb piece Alastair.

    Commercially and economically it will always make more sense to invest in Crossrail 2 than developing northern rail services. Crossrail 2 will be used by millions of people a year. It will encourage redevelopment along its route. There is plenty of private capital to augment that investment and ensure that there is a return in jobs, housing and marginal constituencies.

    This raises an even larger question that Alastair touches upon. Where does growth come from in the 21st century? The simple answer is successful cities. What makes a city successful? That's a bit harder but it seems to require a critical mass of people, education, infrastructure and ambition. London, with more top ranked Universities than the rest of western Europe, has this par excellence.

    We absolutely need London to succeed. It is the powerhouse of our growth and essential to our tax base. We cannot stop investing in it. But it already massively distorts our economy. Osborne was right in concept to seek to establish a northern powerhouse but did not or could not find the money to properly back it. The headlines about rail timetables will fade soon enough but the underlying problem remains. At a time when we still have a significant deficit and overwhelming pressure on spending in the NHS, Social Care, benefits, public sector housing etc it is not going to be easy to find.
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    Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 60,983
    Mr. Jessop, and Cumbria's where I cited decision-makers thinking differently if they lived there. Don't try and deny your silly sausage status.
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    RogerRoger Posts: 18,891
    Some politicians are lucky and others aren't.....

    Argentina boycotting a football match with Israel to great international acclaim on the same day Theresa May is laying out the red carpet for Benjamin Netanyahu in Downing St......

    A perfect metafor for the Britain's new position in the world
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    JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 38,997

    Mr. Jessop, and Cumbria's where I cited decision-makers thinking differently if they lived there. Don't try and deny your silly sausage status.

    And you are from Yorkshire, and were doing the whinging. ;)

    There is a subtle point buried in my post: if you want better infrastructure, whinging and complaining rarely works. In fact, it can often be counter-productive. If people want better infrastructure, make the case clearly and well.
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    OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 31,990
    Roger said:

    Some politicians are lucky and others aren't.....

    Argentina boycotting a football match with Israel to great international acclaim on the same day Theresa May is laying out the red carpet for Benjamin Netanyahu in Downing St......

    A perfect metafor for the Britain's new position in the world

    And she’ll be welcoming Trump soon!
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    AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 23,754
    Roger said:

    Some politicians are lucky and others aren't.....

    Argentina boycotting a football match with Israel to great international acclaim on the same day Theresa May is laying out the red carpet for Benjamin Netanyahu in Downing St......

    A perfect metafor for the Britain's new position in the world

    perhaps you could explain the significance of that
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    JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 38,997
    Sort-of on-topic:

    Fifteen years ago, during my coastwalk, I stopped for a few minutes at Flint castle on the North Wales coast. Whilst there, a man approached me and asked if I was doing the Coastwalk. I replied I was, and he said he'd considered nicking our motorhome in the car park below, but had changed his mind when he'd seen a charity poster in the window!

    Roll on fifteen years, and we were walking in the same area. At one in the afternoon, a group of twentysomething men and women were outside a decrepit children's playground, drinking lager and joshing around. It was not a friendly environment to be in. Another local told me that there had been a stabbing and a machete attack recently in the area.

    Infrastructure is useful, but perhaps the money can sometimes be better spent more directly.
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    ydoethurydoethur Posts: 67,232
    edited June 2018

    We need to dual or even triple the A1 north of Newcastle all the way to the Scottish border. Northumberland is ripe for growth, it just needs the infastructure first. There’s room for whole new cities within easy reach of Edinburgh and Newcastle airports and an ambudance of natural resources.

    Connecting Blyth and Cramlington to the Metro network would also do wonders for the often forgotton North East.

    why stop at the border ? It needs to go right up to Edinburgh. It's ridiculous that two capital cities have no motorway to join them.
    Which road would you choose for dualling - the A1, which serves the largest population but snakes around the coast, the A68 which is most direct but goes through the middle of nowhere and is a bastard to drive on due to the shall we say politely uneven ground it goes through, or the A7 from Carlisle which is in many ways the most logical one if we're talking about London to Edinburgh but of course misses Northumberland entirely?
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    ydoethurydoethur Posts: 67,232

    Sort-of on-topic:

    Fifteen years ago, during my coastwalk, I stopped for a few minutes at Flint castle on the North Wales coast. Whilst there, a man approached me and asked if I was doing the Coastwalk. I replied I was, and he said he'd considered nicking our motorhome in the car park below, but had changed his mind when he'd seen a charity poster in the window!

    Roll on fifteen years, and we were walking in the same area. At one in the afternoon, a group of twentysomething men and women were outside a decrepit children's playground, drinking lager and joshing around. It was not a friendly environment to be in. Another local told me that there had been a stabbing and a machete attack recently in the area.

    Infrastructure is useful, but perhaps the money can sometimes be better spent more directly.

    You may find this useful context:

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-44127068
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    DavidLDavidL Posts: 51,296

    We need to dual or even triple the A1 north of Newcastle all the way to the Scottish border. Northumberland is ripe for growth, it just needs the infastructure first. There’s room for whole new cities within easy reach of Edinburgh and Newcastle airports and an ambudance of natural resources.

    Connecting Blyth and Cramlington to the Metro network would also do wonders for the often forgotton North East.

    why stop at the border ? It needs to go right up to Edinburgh. It's ridiculous that two capital cities have no motorway to join them.
    The stretch between Haddington and the border is horrendous as is the section to Morpeth on the southern side. Single lane and huge numbers of lorries. In fairness, driving to Leeds for the cricket, the A1M south of Newcastle was much improved from what I remember. Much of it was now 3 lanes and junctions etc had been improved. But the difference with the west coast M6/M74 is stark and frankly ridiculous.
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    AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 23,754
    ydoethur said:

    We need to dual or even triple the A1 north of Newcastle all the way to the Scottish border. Northumberland is ripe for growth, it just needs the infastructure first. There’s room for whole new cities within easy reach of Edinburgh and Newcastle airports and an ambudance of natural resources.

    Connecting Blyth and Cramlington to the Metro network would also do wonders for the often forgotton North East.

    why stop at the border ? It needs to go right up to Edinburgh. It's ridiculous that two capital cities have no motorway to join them.
    Which road would you choose for dualling - the A1, which serves the largest population but snakes around the coast, the A68 which is most direct but goes through the middle of nowhere and is a bastard to drive on due to the shall we say politely uneven ground it goes through, or the A7 from Carlisle which is in many ways the most logical one if we're talking about London to Edinburgh but of course misses Northumberland entirely?
    A1 you have to join the big population centres so upgrade from Leeds to GeordieLand, and Edinburgh
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    felixfelix Posts: 15,124

    Roger said:

    Some politicians are lucky and others aren't.....

    Argentina boycotting a football match with Israel to great international acclaim on the same day Theresa May is laying out the red carpet for Benjamin Netanyahu in Downing St......

    A perfect metafor for the Britain's new position in the world

    And she’ll be welcoming Trump soon!
    As did Macron and everyone thinks the sun shines out of his behind. Meaningless partisan soundbites.
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    OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 31,990
    On topic, sort of. Interesting article in the Guardian, https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2018/jun/06/rural-town-austerity-buses-witney

    There’s an issue around rural buses, and the fact that rural, and indeed semi-rual non-drivers, for whatever reason, can be very isolated without them. Even in Essex there are communities with none, or only one a week.
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    DavidLDavidL Posts: 51,296
    ydoethur said:

    We need to dual or even triple the A1 north of Newcastle all the way to the Scottish border. Northumberland is ripe for growth, it just needs the infastructure first. There’s room for whole new cities within easy reach of Edinburgh and Newcastle airports and an ambudance of natural resources.

    Connecting Blyth and Cramlington to the Metro network would also do wonders for the often forgotton North East.

    why stop at the border ? It needs to go right up to Edinburgh. It's ridiculous that two capital cities have no motorway to join them.
    Which road would you choose for dualling - the A1, which serves the largest population but snakes around the coast, the A68 which is most direct but goes through the middle of nowhere and is a bastard to drive on due to the shall we say politely uneven ground it goes through, or the A7 from Carlisle which is in many ways the most logical one if we're talking about London to Edinburgh but of course misses Northumberland entirely?
    The A1. The A68 is not only very hilly but is also very prone to adverse weather. By the A7 do you mean the A702? There is a point in Dumfriesshire where there is a sign indicating that Glasgow and Edinburgh are equidistant. Heading to Dundee it seemed a no brainer to cut across country to the east coast. Its a mistake you only make once.
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    felixfelix Posts: 15,124

    Roger said:

    Some politicians are lucky and others aren't.....

    Argentina boycotting a football match with Israel to great international acclaim on the same day Theresa May is laying out the red carpet for Benjamin Netanyahu in Downing St......

    A perfect metafor for the Britain's new position in the world

    perhaps you could explain the significance of that
    No doubt he is linking Argentina's well known links with former members of the German Nazi party to it's anti-Israel stance? :)
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    ydoethurydoethur Posts: 67,232
    edited June 2018
    DavidL said:

    ydoethur said:

    We need to dual or even triple the A1 north of Newcastle all the way to the Scottish border. Northumberland is ripe for growth, it just needs the infastructure first. There’s room for whole new cities within easy reach of Edinburgh and Newcastle airports and an ambudance of natural resources.

    Connecting Blyth and Cramlington to the Metro network would also do wonders for the often forgotton North East.

    why stop at the border ? It needs to go right up to Edinburgh. It's ridiculous that two capital cities have no motorway to join them.
    Which road would you choose for dualling - the A1, which serves the largest population but snakes around the coast, the A68 which is most direct but goes through the middle of nowhere and is a bastard to drive on due to the shall we say politely uneven ground it goes through, or the A7 from Carlisle which is in many ways the most logical one if we're talking about London to Edinburgh but of course misses Northumberland entirely?
    The A1. The A68 is not only very hilly but is also very prone to adverse weather. By the A7 do you mean the A702? There is a point in Dumfriesshire where there is a sign indicating that Glasgow and Edinburgh are equidistant. Heading to Dundee it seemed a no brainer to cut across country to the east coast. Its a mistake you only make once.
    No, I mean the A7 through Hawick to bypass the extremely busy A74M entirely, but of course the A702 would be a possible and probably rather better alternative in terms of engineering.
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    RogueywonRogueywon Posts: 28
    Worth noting that the detailed analysis done on Heathrow expansion by Government and its commissions showed that while the "pain" of Heathrow expansion falls squarely on London and the South East through noise and air pollution, the economic benefits are fairly evenly spread across most of the country. Most of the regional airports (other than Birmingham, which is too close to London to benefit from it) support Heathrow expansion as it benefits their onward connectivity, as do the more serious regional government bodies.

    Crossrail and the like do indeed primarily benefit Londoners and commuters, but Heathrow is in a different category. The government will be depending on votes from the SNP and Labour MPs from the North to get it across the line in a vote.
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    eekeek Posts: 24,980

    ydoethur said:

    We need to dual or even triple the A1 north of Newcastle all the way to the Scottish border. Northumberland is ripe for growth, it just needs the infastructure first. There’s room for whole new cities within easy reach of Edinburgh and Newcastle airports and an ambudance of natural resources.

    Connecting Blyth and Cramlington to the Metro network would also do wonders for the often forgotton North East.

    why stop at the border ? It needs to go right up to Edinburgh. It's ridiculous that two capital cities have no motorway to join them.
    Which road would you choose for dualling - the A1, which serves the largest population but snakes around the coast, the A68 which is most direct but goes through the middle of nowhere and is a bastard to drive on due to the shall we say politely uneven ground it goes through, or the A7 from Carlisle which is in many ways the most logical one if we're talking about London to Edinburgh but of course misses Northumberland entirely?
    A1 you have to join the big population centres so upgrade from Leeds to GeordieLand, and Edinburgh
    The A1 is now motorway to Newcastle (3 lanes to Scotch Corner, 2 lanes from Scotch Corner to Newcastle).
    What you are left with is Northumberland and then it becomes a question of do you have enough traffic to justify it after all the Scottish Government haven't prioritised it on their side.
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    eekeek Posts: 24,980
    Rogueywon said:

    Worth noting that the detailed analysis done on Heathrow expansion by Government and its commissions showed that while the "pain" of Heathrow expansion falls squarely on London and the South East through noise and air pollution, the economic benefits are fairly evenly spread across most of the country. Most of the regional airports (other than Birmingham, which is too close to London to benefit from it) support Heathrow expansion as it benefits their onward connectivity, as do the more serious regional government bodies.

    Crossrail and the like do indeed primarily benefit Londoners and commuters, but Heathrow is in a different category. The government will be depending on votes from the SNP and Labour MPs from the North to get it across the line in a vote.

    Only because BA (and Heathrow) removed a lot of the regional flights as they weren't profitable enough.

    I spent last year flying round Europe Monday to Thursday. Based on my experience and that of others doing the same thing unless you can drive to Heathrow you are better going via Schipol (or at a push Brussels).
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    DavidLDavidL Posts: 51,296
    ydoethur said:

    DavidL said:

    ydoethur said:

    We need to dual or even triple the A1 north of Newcastle all the way to the Scottish border. Northumberland is ripe for growth, it just needs the infastructure first. There’s room for whole new cities within easy reach of Edinburgh and Newcastle airports and an ambudance of natural resources.

    Connecting Blyth and Cramlington to the Metro network would also do wonders for the often forgotton North East.

    why stop at the border ? It needs to go right up to Edinburgh. It's ridiculous that two capital cities have no motorway to join them.
    Which road would you choose for dualling - the A1, which serves the largest population but snakes around the coast, the A68 which is most direct but goes through the middle of nowhere and is a bastard to drive on due to the shall we say politely uneven ground it goes through, or the A7 from Carlisle which is in many ways the most logical one if we're talking about London to Edinburgh but of course misses Northumberland entirely?
    The A1. The A68 is not only very hilly but is also very prone to adverse weather. By the A7 do you mean the A702? There is a point in Dumfriesshire where there is a sign indicating that Glasgow and Edinburgh are equidistant. Heading to Dundee it seemed a no brainer to cut across country to the east coast. Its a mistake you only make once.
    No, I mean the A7 through Hawick to bypass the extremely busy A74M entirely, but of course the A702 would be a possible and probably rather better alternative in terms of engineering.
    I have to say in my experience the M74 is largely empty south of Hamilton as is the M6 from the lakes northwards. It is always a source of frustration comparing that with the A1. It is also an example of how major infrastructure spending is not enough in itself to generate growth. South west Scotland and north west England are not exactly a hub of dynamism as a result.
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    AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 23,754
    eek said:

    ydoethur said:

    We need to dual or even triple the A1 north of Newcastle all the way to the Scottish border. Northumberland is ripe for growth, it just needs the infastructure first. There’s room for whole new cities within easy reach of Edinburgh and Newcastle airports and an ambudance of natural resources.

    Connecting Blyth and Cramlington to the Metro network would also do wonders for the often forgotton North East.

    why stop at the border ? It needs to go right up to Edinburgh. It's ridiculous that two capital cities have no motorway to join them.
    Which road would you choose for dualling - the A1, which serves the largest population but snakes around the coast, the A68 which is most direct but goes through the middle of nowhere and is a bastard to drive on due to the shall we say politely uneven ground it goes through, or the A7 from Carlisle which is in many ways the most logical one if we're talking about London to Edinburgh but of course misses Northumberland entirely?
    A1 you have to join the big population centres so upgrade from Leeds to GeordieLand, and Edinburgh
    The A1 is now motorway to Newcastle (3 lanes to Scotch Corner, 2 lanes from Scotch Corner to Newcastle).
    What you are left with is Northumberland and then it becomes a question of do you have enough traffic to justify it after all the Scottish Government haven't prioritised it on their side.
    this is where the UK differs from say France or Germany. They build roads to join the country together and stuff the accountants. It allows less developed areas to keep up with the fast developing regions and avoids huge income disparities.
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    Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 60,983
    Mr. Won, welcome to the site. Also, it's mildly amusing, if sad, that MPs are all in favour of new runways, just so long as they aren't anywhere near their constituencies.
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    DavidLDavidL Posts: 51,296
    Rogueywon said:

    Worth noting that the detailed analysis done on Heathrow expansion by Government and its commissions showed that while the "pain" of Heathrow expansion falls squarely on London and the South East through noise and air pollution, the economic benefits are fairly evenly spread across most of the country. Most of the regional airports (other than Birmingham, which is too close to London to benefit from it) support Heathrow expansion as it benefits their onward connectivity, as do the more serious regional government bodies.

    Crossrail and the like do indeed primarily benefit Londoners and commuters, but Heathrow is in a different category. The government will be depending on votes from the SNP and Labour MPs from the North to get it across the line in a vote.

    This, of course, is why the SNP are backing Heathrow expansion.
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    ydoethurydoethur Posts: 67,232
    DavidL said:

    ydoethur said:

    DavidL said:

    ydoethur said:

    We need to dual or even triple the A1 north of Newcastle all the way to the Scottish border. Northumberland is ripe for growth, it just needs the infastructure first. There’s room for whole new cities within easy reach of Edinburgh and Newcastle airports and an ambudance of natural resources.

    Connecting Blyth and Cramlington to the Metro network would also do wonders for the often forgotton North East.

    why stop at the border ? It needs to go right up to Edinburgh. It's ridiculous that two capital cities have no motorway to join them.
    Which road would you choose for dualling - the A1, which serves the largest population but snakes around the coast, the A68 which is most direct but goes through the middle of nowhere and is a bastard to drive on due to the shall we say politely uneven ground it goes through, or the A7 from Carlisle which is in many ways the most logical one if we're talking about London to Edinburgh but of course misses Northumberland entirely?
    The A1. The A68 is not only very hilly but is also very prone to adverse weather. By the A7 do you mean the A702? There is a point in Dumfriesshire where there is a sign indicating that Glasgow and Edinburgh are equidistant. Heading to Dundee it seemed a no brainer to cut across country to the east coast. Its a mistake you only make once.
    No, I mean the A7 through Hawick to bypass the extremely busy A74M entirely, but of course the A702 would be a possible and probably rather better alternative in terms of engineering.
    I have to say in my experience the M74 is largely empty south of Hamilton as is the M6 from the lakes northwards. It is always a source of frustration comparing that with the A1. It is also an example of how major infrastructure spending is not enough in itself to generate growth. South west Scotland and north west England are not exactly a hub of dynamism as a result.
    Well, I have to say your experience doesn't match my experience. That said of course I am usually only there in peak holiday traffic season so you probably have a better idea than I do of the overall loads the roads carry.
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    FoxyFoxy Posts: 44,629

    On topic, sort of. Interesting article in the Guardian, https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2018/jun/06/rural-town-austerity-buses-witney

    There’s an issue around rural buses, and the fact that rural, and indeed semi-rual non-drivers, for whatever reason, can be very isolated without them. Even in Essex there are communities with none, or only one a week.

    It is an issue in Leics. The County population is older and more frail, so if giving up driving for medical reasons, gets effectively housebound by having no bus service. Some basic stuff needs sorting before white elephants get paid for.
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    SandpitSandpit Posts: 49,897
    Rogueywon said:

    Worth noting that the detailed analysis done on Heathrow expansion by Government and its commissions showed that while the "pain" of Heathrow expansion falls squarely on London and the South East through noise and air pollution, the economic benefits are fairly evenly spread across most of the country. Most of the regional airports (other than Birmingham, which is too close to London to benefit from it) support Heathrow expansion as it benefits their onward connectivity, as do the more serious regional government bodies.

    Crossrail and the like do indeed primarily benefit Londoners and commuters, but Heathrow is in a different category. The government will be depending on votes from the SNP and Labour MPs from the North to get it across the line in a vote.

    Indeed. Heathrow is so congested that every time there’s some morning fog in the winter, half of BA’s domestic schedule gets binned for the day. I imagine that MPs from northern constituencies notice this personally.

    Meanwhile KLM and Emirates operate to most of the regional airports and take a considerable amount of long haul passengers (and APD) away.
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    PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 75,929
    Whilst I agree with the article in the main , Sheffield and Manchester are two large urban areas and improving their transport links to each other is well worth 5 billion quid. There are plenty of cranes on the skyline in Sheffield at the moment and Manchester seems to be doing OK.
    Alastair's second to last sentence contradicts the italicized section - the trans Pennine upgrades should be put back on.
    The largest potential infrastructure projects t near me is Doncaster Sheffield airport which hopefully will be able to expand as per their ambitious plans. It was one of the first ports of call for the regional mayor, Dan Jarvis.
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    JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 38,997
    ydoethur said:

    Sort-of on-topic:

    Fifteen years ago, during my coastwalk, I stopped for a few minutes at Flint castle on the North Wales coast. Whilst there, a man approached me and asked if I was doing the Coastwalk. I replied I was, and he said he'd considered nicking our motorhome in the car park below, but had changed his mind when he'd seen a charity poster in the window!

    Roll on fifteen years, and we were walking in the same area. At one in the afternoon, a group of twentysomething men and women were outside a decrepit children's playground, drinking lager and joshing around. It was not a friendly environment to be in. Another local told me that there had been a stabbing and a machete attack recently in the area.

    Infrastructure is useful, but perhaps the money can sometimes be better spent more directly.

    You may find this useful context:

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-44127068
    Thanks for that. It was indeed Connah's Quay (where there is a rather eclectic and pleasant cafe).

    I do loads of walking, and very infrequently feel in any way threatened. Yet walking post those youths I felt a little frisson of danger, as though they could have turned on us at any moment. An odd and disturbing feeling.
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    Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 55,332
    The challenge with CRL2 is politics, not economics.

    At the moment it’s base estimate is coming in at over twice that of CRL1, and there is no bill just optioneering.

    That’s going to be very hard to justify before the North gets some serious investment.
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    Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 60,983
    Mr. Brooke, indeed, though it's worth noting the UK/England has been more heavily focused on its capital city than the vast majority of comparable nations for a very long time.

    Not to excuse the fact, just to say it's long ingrained.

    F1: markets are up on Ladbrokes, giving them a cursory glance now.
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    PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 75,929
    Sandpit said:

    Rogueywon said:

    Worth noting that the detailed analysis done on Heathrow expansion by Government and its commissions showed that while the "pain" of Heathrow expansion falls squarely on London and the South East through noise and air pollution, the economic benefits are fairly evenly spread across most of the country. Most of the regional airports (other than Birmingham, which is too close to London to benefit from it) support Heathrow expansion as it benefits their onward connectivity, as do the more serious regional government bodies.

    Crossrail and the like do indeed primarily benefit Londoners and commuters, but Heathrow is in a different category. The government will be depending on votes from the SNP and Labour MPs from the North to get it across the line in a vote.

    Indeed. Heathrow is so congested that every time there’s some morning fog in the winter, half of BA’s domestic schedule gets binned for the day. I imagine that MPs from northern constituencies notice this personally.

    Meanwhile KLM and Emirates operate to most of the regional airports and take a considerable amount of long haul passengers (and APD) away.
    Heathrow is WAY overdue, and other regional airports should be expanded too. Why give the Dutch extra business with Schipol connections ?
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    AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 23,754

    Mr. Brooke, indeed, though it's worth noting the UK/England has been more heavily focused on its capital city than the vast majority of comparable nations for a very long time.

    Not to excuse the fact, just to say it's long ingrained.

    F1: markets are up on Ladbrokes, giving them a cursory glance now.

    well the irony on Northern underinvestment is that 13 years of Labour govt didn't do much to address the backlog in what is a core vote area.

    Any moment now that whinging git Burnham will appear to tell us all how bad things are but it's not his fault
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    Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 60,983
    F1: the only thing at this stage which appears worth considering is Raikkonen to 'win' first practice each way (fifth the odds, top 3) at 13. On pace, it should be a four horse race. Of course, they could well sandbag, so... it's marginal.
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    Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 60,983
    Mr. Brooke, of course. If they made people wealthier they might vote Conservative ;)
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    DavidLDavidL Posts: 51,296
    Pulpstar said:

    Sandpit said:

    Rogueywon said:

    Worth noting that the detailed analysis done on Heathrow expansion by Government and its commissions showed that while the "pain" of Heathrow expansion falls squarely on London and the South East through noise and air pollution, the economic benefits are fairly evenly spread across most of the country. Most of the regional airports (other than Birmingham, which is too close to London to benefit from it) support Heathrow expansion as it benefits their onward connectivity, as do the more serious regional government bodies.

    Crossrail and the like do indeed primarily benefit Londoners and commuters, but Heathrow is in a different category. The government will be depending on votes from the SNP and Labour MPs from the North to get it across the line in a vote.

    Indeed. Heathrow is so congested that every time there’s some morning fog in the winter, half of BA’s domestic schedule gets binned for the day. I imagine that MPs from northern constituencies notice this personally.

    Meanwhile KLM and Emirates operate to most of the regional airports and take a considerable amount of long haul passengers (and APD) away.
    Heathrow is WAY overdue, and other regional airports should be expanded too. Why give the Dutch extra business with Schipol connections ?
    Heathrow expansion is more than 20 years overdue but I never really followed why it was an alternative to Gatwick or other regional expansion. We need both right now. We certainly will need them desperately by the time the Heathrow expansion is built.
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    notmenotme Posts: 3,293
    FPT Can i just point out that a penny increase in NI is not a 1% increase its just under a 10% increase in NI.
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    eekeek Posts: 24,980
    edited June 2018
    Pulpstar said:

    Sandpit said:

    Rogueywon said:

    Worth noting that the detailed analysis done on Heathrow expansion by Government and its commissions showed that while the "pain" of Heathrow expansion falls squarely on London and the South East through noise and air pollution, the economic benefits are fairly evenly spread across most of the country. Most of the regional airports (other than Birmingham, which is too close to London to benefit from it) support Heathrow expansion as it benefits their onward connectivity, as do the more serious regional government bodies.

    Crossrail and the like do indeed primarily benefit Londoners and commuters, but Heathrow is in a different category. The government will be depending on votes from the SNP and Labour MPs from the North to get it across the line in a vote.

    Indeed. Heathrow is so congested that every time there’s some morning fog in the winter, half of BA’s domestic schedule gets binned for the day. I imagine that MPs from northern constituencies notice this personally.

    Meanwhile KLM and Emirates operate to most of the regional airports and take a considerable amount of long haul passengers (and APD) away.
    Heathrow is WAY overdue, and other regional airports should be expanded too. Why give the Dutch extra business with Schipol connections ?
    Because Schipol just works. If I need to be in Copenhagen / Munich / Frankfurt for a Monday lunch time meeting I can be.
    A friend who flies Belfast -> Heathrow -> Copenhagen only arrives at 14:30 (assuming the Belfast Heathrow flight takes off).

    Newcastle has a choice of Heathrow, Brussels, CDG and Schipol for transfers. Schipol is great, Brussels acceptable CDG bearable if you give enough time for connections. Heathrow only if there is no other option and even then.... And if it's not the connection that puts you off its the airline itself.
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    PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 75,929
    eek said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Sandpit said:

    Rogueywon said:

    Worth noting that the detailed analysis done on Heathrow expansion by Government and its commissions showed that while the "pain" of Heathrow expansion falls squarely on London and the South East through noise and air pollution, the economic benefits are fairly evenly spread across most of the country. Most of the regional airports (other than Birmingham, which is too close to London to benefit from it) support Heathrow expansion as it benefits their onward connectivity, as do the more serious regional government bodies.

    Crossrail and the like do indeed primarily benefit Londoners and commuters, but Heathrow is in a different category. The government will be depending on votes from the SNP and Labour MPs from the North to get it across the line in a vote.

    Indeed. Heathrow is so congested that every time there’s some morning fog in the winter, half of BA’s domestic schedule gets binned for the day. I imagine that MPs from northern constituencies notice this personally.

    Meanwhile KLM and Emirates operate to most of the regional airports and take a considerable amount of long haul passengers (and APD) away.
    Heathrow is WAY overdue, and other regional airports should be expanded too. Why give the Dutch extra business with Schipol connections ?
    Because Schipol just works. If I need to be in Copenhagen / Munich / Frankfurt for a Monday lunch time meeting I can be.
    A friend who flies Belfast -> Heathrow -> Copenhagen only arrives at 14:30..
    Yes I know AMS just works, but that is because it has six runways. Imagine what Heathrow could do with six runways !
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    SandpitSandpit Posts: 49,897
    Pulpstar said:

    Sandpit said:

    Rogueywon said:

    Worth noting that the detailed analysis done on Heathrow expansion by Government and its commissions showed that while the "pain" of Heathrow expansion falls squarely on London and the South East through noise and air pollution, the economic benefits are fairly evenly spread across most of the country. Most of the regional airports (other than Birmingham, which is too close to London to benefit from it) support Heathrow expansion as it benefits their onward connectivity, as do the more serious regional government bodies.

    Crossrail and the like do indeed primarily benefit Londoners and commuters, but Heathrow is in a different category. The government will be depending on votes from the SNP and Labour MPs from the North to get it across the line in a vote.

    Indeed. Heathrow is so congested that every time there’s some morning fog in the winter, half of BA’s domestic schedule gets binned for the day. I imagine that MPs from northern constituencies notice this personally.

    Meanwhile KLM and Emirates operate to most of the regional airports and take a considerable amount of long haul passengers (and APD) away.
    Heathrow is WAY overdue, and other regional airports should be expanded too. Why give the Dutch extra business with Schipol connections ?
    Heathrow’s new runway was overdue 15 years ago, and it’s going to be another decade at least before it actually opens. A forward thinking government would be planning to start construction on Runway 4 as soon as Runway 3 is finished, the whole process by which we make these major infrastructure decisions is seriously flawed.

    The future world growth is going to be in long haul destinations such as China and India, both of which are better served by pretty much any hub airport in Europe or the Middle East, than through Heathrow.
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    NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 21,335

    Good morning, everyone.

    Gosh. The national media's remembered there's a north :p

    More seriously, last year there was a graphic (I linked it here at the time) indicating that of bigwig transport decision-makers, 9/10 lived in London/the south-east and I think the other lived in the south too. Even with the best will in the world, that's going to skew decision-making. If you shoved them all in Cumbria they'd probably discover the importance of maintaining rural roads.

    Yes, my dad once visited a friend in the then equivalent of the DCLG. The friend was studying a lengthy document: he said "I'm trying to decide how far we should support cycle paths in Cornwall." My father expressed surprise - "Didn't know you've been to Cornwall, or have ever cycled?" His friend said, "No, and no, but what's that got to do with it? I'm looking at the economic case."

    I don't often read articles which make me realise I've overlooked something important (maybe a reflection on me), but AM's leader explaining the reason that the North gets relatively neglected is one - I see the point and I'm sure it's right.
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    SandpitSandpit Posts: 49,897

    F1: the only thing at this stage which appears worth considering is Raikkonen to 'win' first practice each way (fifth the odds, top 3) at 13. On pace, it should be a four horse race. Of course, they could well sandbag, so... it's marginal.

    I’d go for the same bet but on Bottas. Ferrari are likely down on power thanks to Charlie taking a close look at their battery system, and they’ve a recent history of sandbagging on Fridays.
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    kle4kle4 Posts: 91,745

    Roger said:

    Some politicians are lucky and others aren't.....

    Argentina boycotting a football match with Israel to great international acclaim on the same day Theresa May is laying out the red carpet for Benjamin Netanyahu in Downing St......

    A perfect metafor for the Britain's new position in the world

    And she’ll be welcoming Trump soon!
    And? That says nothing about anything. Leaders from Macron to Trudeau do it too.
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    NigelbNigelb Posts: 62,601

    Nigelb said:

    There’s a reason why Crossrail 2 is on the agenda at a time when the TransPennine Express upgrade is apparently being shelved...

    And it’s likely not an economic one. The costs are in the region of £30bn and £5bn respectively. The decision on the new transpennine route was a disgrace.

    The point of infrastructure projects being judged on return on investment is a strong one, but that is quite clearly not the only metric. The development of poorer regions is quite clearly not a significant metric, either.

    A good article, though.

    The big issues for TPE upgrades are:

    1) Unbelievable costs. Costings are by, and delivery would be by, Network Rail, who have f***ed up the GWML upgrade to a hideous extent. Witness also the cancellation of much of the MML upgrade. When it comes to major enhancements, NR appear unable to get anywhere near realistic costings.

    2) HS3. If this goes ahead, then any TPE upgrades would need to be altered to best fit the new infrastructure arrangements.

    It should also be noted that Crossrail was partly paid for by a business tax, and Crossrail 2 might be partially paid for by a property tax. Some other infrastructure projects might be more likely to go ahead if they had similar arrangements, but that's not much use when the main aim is regeneration of a poor area ...
    The financial case for HS3 is likely considerably better than that for either 1 or 2.
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    EssexitEssexit Posts: 1,956

    Roger said:

    Some politicians are lucky and others aren't.....

    Argentina boycotting a football match with Israel to great international acclaim on the same day Theresa May is laying out the red carpet for Benjamin Netanyahu in Downing St......

    A perfect metafor for the Britain's new position in the world

    perhaps you could explain the significance of that
    A country which invaded our territory unprovoked shuns the one democracy in the Middle East, we work with it. Sounds good to me.
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    PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 75,929
    It boggles the mind how much power those opposed to LHR expansion seem to possess. As a band I went to recently remarked - if you don't like live music why buynext to a pub. Same for airports, and if your house needs to go you'll get 125% of value plus costs which is a fortune in that area.
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    JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 38,997
    Nigelb said:

    Nigelb said:

    There’s a reason why Crossrail 2 is on the agenda at a time when the TransPennine Express upgrade is apparently being shelved...

    And it’s likely not an economic one. The costs are in the region of £30bn and £5bn respectively. The decision on the new transpennine route was a disgrace.

    The point of infrastructure projects being judged on return on investment is a strong one, but that is quite clearly not the only metric. The development of poorer regions is quite clearly not a significant metric, either.

    A good article, though.

    The big issues for TPE upgrades are:

    1) Unbelievable costs. Costings are by, and delivery would be by, Network Rail, who have f***ed up the GWML upgrade to a hideous extent. Witness also the cancellation of much of the MML upgrade. When it comes to major enhancements, NR appear unable to get anywhere near realistic costings.

    2) HS3. If this goes ahead, then any TPE upgrades would need to be altered to best fit the new infrastructure arrangements.

    It should also be noted that Crossrail was partly paid for by a business tax, and Crossrail 2 might be partially paid for by a property tax. Some other infrastructure projects might be more likely to go ahead if they had similar arrangements, but that's not much use when the main aim is regeneration of a poor area ...
    The financial case for HS3 is likely considerably better than that for either 1 or 2.
    I think - and hope - you are right.
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    Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    eek said:

    Newcastle has a choice of Heathrow, Brussels, CDG and Schipol for transfers. Schipol is great, Brussels acceptable CDG bearable if you give enough time for connections. Heathrow only if there is no other option and even then.... And if it's not the connection that puts you off its the airline itself.

    I used to do Newcastle Gothenburg every couple of weeks. Schipol you spend all the time between flights walking to the gate. Brussels you can have a beer in the concourse
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    EssexitEssexit Posts: 1,956
    On the subject of infrastructure, as long as London's growth is supported by commuters from the East of England the GEML needs serious work. Today's train will terminate at Stratford 5 minutes after it should have arrived at Liverpool Street and then we'll all pile onto the Tube. Crossrail might do something to sort this kind of cock-up, mind.
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    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 117,005
    Jacob Rees Mogg holds his lead in the Conservative Home Tory members next Tory leader poll with 21%, Gove is close behind on 20% and Javid is third on 13% and the only other contender in double figures

    https://www.conservativehome.com/thetorydiary/2018/06/our-survey-next-tory-leader-rees-mogg-leads-gove-by-less-than-ten-votes-in-over-a-thousand-javid-is-third.html
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    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 117,005

    On topic, sort of. Interesting article in the Guardian, https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2018/jun/06/rural-town-austerity-buses-witney

    There’s an issue around rural buses, and the fact that rural, and indeed semi-rual non-drivers, for whatever reason, can be very isolated without them. Even in Essex there are communities with none, or only one a week.

    If more people used rural buses then bus companies would provide more of them
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    SandpitSandpit Posts: 49,897
    edited June 2018
    HYUFD said:

    On topic, sort of. Interesting article in the Guardian, https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2018/jun/06/rural-town-austerity-buses-witney

    There’s an issue around rural buses, and the fact that rural, and indeed semi-rual non-drivers, for whatever reason, can be very isolated without them. Even in Essex there are communities with none, or only one a week.

    If more people used rural buses then bus companies would provide more of them
    That works both ways though. If there’s only one bus a week then older people choose to move into town when they give up driving. My parents did this only last year.

    Also, if everyone using the bus is a pensioner then someone has to pay for the service.
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    BarnesianBarnesian Posts: 7,989
    HYUFD said:

    On topic, sort of. Interesting article in the Guardian, https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2018/jun/06/rural-town-austerity-buses-witney

    There’s an issue around rural buses, and the fact that rural, and indeed semi-rual non-drivers, for whatever reason, can be very isolated without them. Even in Essex there are communities with none, or only one a week.

    If more people used rural buses then bus companies would provide more of them
    If bus companies provided more rural buses then more people would use them.

    A pure market theory doesn't work very well on infrastructure.
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    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 117,005
    Sandpit said:

    HYUFD said:

    On topic, sort of. Interesting article in the Guardian, https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2018/jun/06/rural-town-austerity-buses-witney

    There’s an issue around rural buses, and the fact that rural, and indeed semi-rual non-drivers, for whatever reason, can be very isolated without them. Even in Essex there are communities with none, or only one a week.

    If more people used rural buses then bus companies would provide more of them
    That works both ways though. If there’s only one bus a week then older people choose to move into town when they give up driving. My parents did this only last year.
    Though that just reinforces the trend of bus services focused on towns rather than villages
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    Andy_CookeAndy_Cooke Posts: 4,817
    Back at the tail end of the Nineties, I was living on the Aberdeenshire coast and was saying, only partly tongue in cheek, that the new Scottish Parliament should be placed in Inverness.
    They would then be focused on the need to improve the roads in Scotland away from the Central Belt.
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    Andy_CookeAndy_Cooke Posts: 4,817
    ydoethur said:

    We need to dual or even triple the A1 north of Newcastle all the way to the Scottish border. Northumberland is ripe for growth, it just needs the infastructure first. There’s room for whole new cities within easy reach of Edinburgh and Newcastle airports and an ambudance of natural resources.

    Connecting Blyth and Cramlington to the Metro network would also do wonders for the often forgotton North East.

    why stop at the border ? It needs to go right up to Edinburgh. It's ridiculous that two capital cities have no motorway to join them.
    Which road would you choose for dualling - the A1, which serves the largest population but snakes around the coast, the A68 which is most direct but goes through the middle of nowhere and is a bastard to drive on due to the shall we say politely uneven ground it goes through, or the A7 from Carlisle which is in many ways the most logical one if we're talking about London to Edinburgh but of course misses Northumberland entirely?
    Or the A697 which sort of strikes a middle ground, leaving the A1 north of Newcastle and joining the A68 three quarters of the way down.

    When I lived at Buchan and went home to Colchester occasionally, I became a connoisseur of the road routes north...
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    SandpitSandpit Posts: 49,897
    HYUFD said:

    Sandpit said:

    HYUFD said:

    On topic, sort of. Interesting article in the Guardian, https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2018/jun/06/rural-town-austerity-buses-witney

    There’s an issue around rural buses, and the fact that rural, and indeed semi-rual non-drivers, for whatever reason, can be very isolated without them. Even in Essex there are communities with none, or only one a week.

    If more people used rural buses then bus companies would provide more of them
    That works both ways though. If there’s only one bus a week then older people choose to move into town when they give up driving. My parents did this only last year.
    Though that just reinforces the trend of bus services focused on towns rather than villages
    Indeed. Rural provision of buses (and broadband) is difficult because there’s a critical mass for a profitable service that just isn’t there - even more so when most customers have a bus pass and pay nothing for their trip. Usually it’s left to councils to foot the bill, but that’s proving politically difficult when they struggle to fund social care and education.
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    Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 60,983
    Mr. Sandpit, what're Bottas' odds?
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    SandpitSandpit Posts: 49,897
    edited June 2018

    Back at the tail end of the Nineties, I was living on the Aberdeenshire coast and was saying, only partly tongue in cheek, that the new Scottish Parliament should be placed in Inverness.
    They would then be focused on the need to improve the roads in Scotland away from the Central Belt.

    Nah, they’d just fly in from Edinburgh and say how wonderful things are.

    Remember the First Minister who chartered a helicopter for the last election campaign as she didn’t want to waste time travelling by road?
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    DavidLDavidL Posts: 51,296
    Barnesian said:

    HYUFD said:

    On topic, sort of. Interesting article in the Guardian, https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2018/jun/06/rural-town-austerity-buses-witney

    There’s an issue around rural buses, and the fact that rural, and indeed semi-rual non-drivers, for whatever reason, can be very isolated without them. Even in Essex there are communities with none, or only one a week.

    If more people used rural buses then bus companies would provide more of them
    If bus companies provided more rural buses then more people would use them.

    A pure market theory doesn't work very well on infrastructure.
    How many people? I see many buses in the village picking up 2-3 people. It doesn't pay for the fuel, let alone the driver. And most of those using the bus don't even pay because they have a bus pass. I don't see how you justify more "investment" or subsidy to that.
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    tlg86tlg86 Posts: 25,190
    Sandpit said:

    tlg86 said:

    The North certainly has better roads than the South. Incidentally, if this new runway (is it getting a new terminal too?) happens at Heathrow, we should build a new motorway from the M25 at Cobham to the M3, M4 and M40 meaning that if you're going to Birmingham and the Northwest you don't have to go on the M25 past Heathrow.

    ISTR a couple of decades ago, a plan to link the M3 and M4 with a new road east of Bracknell from M3 J3 to M4 J8/9. The problem is that there’s a lot of very influential people with very expensive houses in places like Ascot and Winkfield, who didn’t want a trunk road within five miles of where they lived!
    **** 'em.
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    SlackbladderSlackbladder Posts: 9,704
    edited June 2018
    tlg86 said:

    Sandpit said:

    tlg86 said:

    The North certainly has better roads than the South. Incidentally, if this new runway (is it getting a new terminal too?) happens at Heathrow, we should build a new motorway from the M25 at Cobham to the M3, M4 and M40 meaning that if you're going to Birmingham and the Northwest you don't have to go on the M25 past Heathrow.

    ISTR a couple of decades ago, a plan to link the M3 and M4 with a new road east of Bracknell from M3 J3 to M4 J8/9. The problem is that there’s a lot of very influential people with very expensive houses in places like Ascot and Winkfield, who didn’t want a trunk road within five miles of where they lived!
    **** 'em.
    That would be a mess, (I live in Bagshot, so right where that would be). But it's a mess anyway.

    Edit: but looking at the map, there would really be no way through at all.

    This area of the country is just too densely populated compared with the current intrastructure.
  • Options
    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 117,005
    Justin Welby, the Archbishop of Canterbury, comes out as a Remainer 'the EU has been the greatest thing for human beings since the Western Roman Empire'

    https://mobile.twitter.com/wareisjoe/status/1003984057787699202
  • Options
    Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 60,983
    Mr. L, I believe a small group of rural Yorkshire towns/villages have clubbed together to help create/maintain local services (mobile libraries, buses etc). Was on local news a few months ago. Could be a good model going forward.
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    AlistairAlistair Posts: 23,670
    ydoethur said:

    We need to dual or even triple the A1 north of Newcastle all the way to the Scottish border. Northumberland is ripe for growth, it just needs the infastructure first. There’s room for whole new cities within easy reach of Edinburgh and Newcastle airports and an ambudance of natural resources.

    Connecting Blyth and Cramlington to the Metro network would also do wonders for the often forgotton North East.

    why stop at the border ? It needs to go right up to Edinburgh. It's ridiculous that two capital cities have no motorway to join them.
    Which road would you choose for dualling - the A1, which serves the largest population but snakes around the coast, the A68 which is most direct but goes through the middle of nowhere and is a bastard to drive on due to the shall we say politely uneven ground it goes through, or the A7 from Carlisle which is in many ways the most logical one if we're talking about London to Edinburgh but of course misses Northumberland entirely?
    The A7 of course being the lowest road number without an associated M

    If the A68 is inappropriate to upgrade die to terrain then the A7 is hardly a walk in the park. Crossing the watershed through the pass at Mosspaul would be, errrr, interesting to dual.
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    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 117,005
    Sandpit said:

    HYUFD said:

    Sandpit said:

    HYUFD said:

    On topic, sort of. Interesting article in the Guardian, https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2018/jun/06/rural-town-austerity-buses-witney

    There’s an issue around rural buses, and the fact that rural, and indeed semi-rual non-drivers, for whatever reason, can be very isolated without them. Even in Essex there are communities with none, or only one a week.

    If more people used rural buses then bus companies would provide more of them
    That works both ways though. If there’s only one bus a week then older people choose to move into town when they give up driving. My parents did this only last year.
    Though that just reinforces the trend of bus services focused on towns rather than villages
    Indeed. Rural provision of buses (and broadband) is difficult because there’s a critical mass for a profitable service that just isn’t there - even more so when most customers have a bus pass and pay nothing for their trip. Usually it’s left to councils to foot the bill, but that’s proving politically difficult when they struggle to fund social care and education.
    Given how high a percentage of village residents are likely to be wealthy pensioners, especially in the South, maybe a case for them to pay out of their pocket for better bus and broadband services in their community
  • Options
    AlistairAlistair Posts: 23,670

    Back at the tail end of the Nineties, I was living on the Aberdeenshire coast and was saying, only partly tongue in cheek, that the new Scottish Parliament should be placed in Inverness.
    They would then be focused on the need to improve the roads in Scotland away from the Central Belt.

    The SNP wanted to dual the A9. The Lib Dems (along with Labour and Con) forced the Scottish Parliament to fund the Edinburgh teams instead.
  • Options
    BarnesianBarnesian Posts: 7,989
    I was once responsible for making the business case for major infrastructure projects in a large public company.

    If the infrastructure project was an add-on to an existing capability then the cost benefit case was relatively straightforward, and the accountants were happy with their spreadsheets.

    But if the infrastructure project was a component in building a new strategic capability then it was not so straightforward. The main benefit was often the "option value" it provided in enabling further undefined projects that built on or required that infrastructure. This required the CEO to recognise the strategic value and over-ride the accountants.

    However there was a danger. If you could manage to get a project labelled "strategic", then you could avoid difficult quantitative questions and get away with waving your hands around.

    Nevertheless there is a crucial difference between add-on and enabling infrastructure projects.
  • Options
    SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 20,612
    I started reading this thread and wondered which of our Northern Champions was the author.

    Oh.

    However, credit to Mr Meeks - a well written and balanced piece.

    Anyhow, how many seats in the Manchester commuter belt are the Tories trying their hardest to lose?
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    tlg86tlg86 Posts: 25,190
    edited June 2018

    tlg86 said:

    Sandpit said:

    tlg86 said:

    The North certainly has better roads than the South. Incidentally, if this new runway (is it getting a new terminal too?) happens at Heathrow, we should build a new motorway from the M25 at Cobham to the M3, M4 and M40 meaning that if you're going to Birmingham and the Northwest you don't have to go on the M25 past Heathrow.

    ISTR a couple of decades ago, a plan to link the M3 and M4 with a new road east of Bracknell from M3 J3 to M4 J8/9. The problem is that there’s a lot of very influential people with very expensive houses in places like Ascot and Winkfield, who didn’t want a trunk road within five miles of where they lived!
    **** 'em.
    That would be a mess, (I live in Bagshot, so right where that would be). But it's a mess anyway.

    Edit: but looking at the map, there would really be no way through at all.

    This area of the country is just too densely populated compared with the current intrastructure.
    How much would a tunnel cost?

    EDIT: But you're right. When the scheme was originally envisaged, the area wasn't as densely populated. If you live in Bagshot you'll know what the roads round our area are like.
  • Options
    SandpitSandpit Posts: 49,897
    HYUFD said:

    Sandpit said:

    HYUFD said:

    Sandpit said:

    HYUFD said:

    On topic, sort of. Interesting article in the Guardian, https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2018/jun/06/rural-town-austerity-buses-witney

    There’s an issue around rural buses, and the fact that rural, and indeed semi-rual non-drivers, for whatever reason, can be very isolated without them. Even in Essex there are communities with none, or only one a week.

    If more people used rural buses then bus companies would provide more of them
    That works both ways though. If there’s only one bus a week then older people choose to move into town when they give up driving. My parents did this only last year.
    Though that just reinforces the trend of bus services focused on towns rather than villages
    Indeed. Rural provision of buses (and broadband) is difficult because there’s a critical mass for a profitable service that just isn’t there - even more so when most customers have a bus pass and pay nothing for their trip. Usually it’s left to councils to foot the bill, but that’s proving politically difficult when they struggle to fund social care and education.
    Given how high a percentage of village residents are likely to be wealthy pensioners, especially in the South, maybe a case for them to pay out of their pocket for better bus and broadband services in their community
    Good luck with your campaign to take bus passes away from pensioners! The social care proposals would be a walk in the park compared to that one.
  • Options
    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 117,005
    Sandpit said:

    HYUFD said:

    Sandpit said:

    HYUFD said:

    Sandpit said:

    HYUFD said:

    On topic, sort of. Interesting article in the Guardian, https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2018/jun/06/rural-town-austerity-buses-witney

    There’s an issue around rural buses, and the fact that rural, and indeed semi-rual non-drivers, for whatever reason, can be very isolated without them. Even in Essex there are communities with none, or only one a week.

    If more people used rural buses then bus companies would provide more of them
    That works both ways though. If there’s only one bus a week then older people choose to move into town when they give up driving. My parents did this only last year.
    Though that just reinforces the trend of bus services focused on towns rather than villages
    Indeed. Rural provision of buses (and broadband) is difficult because there’s a critical mass for a profitable service that just isn’t there - even more so when most customers have a bus pass and pay nothing for their trip. Usually it’s left to councils to foot the bill, but that’s proving politically difficult when they struggle to fund social care and education.
    Given how high a percentage of village residents are likely to be wealthy pensioners, especially in the South, maybe a case for them to pay out of their pocket for better bus and broadband services in their community
    Good luck with your campaign to take bus passes away from pensioners! The social care proposals would be a walk in the park compared to that one.
    They would keep bus passes just pay for more bus services
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    notmenotme Posts: 3,293
    HYUFD said:

    Justin Welby, the Archbishop of Canterbury, comes out as a Remainer 'the EU has been the greatest thing for human beings since the Western Roman Empire'

    https://mobile.twitter.com/wareisjoe/status/1003984057787699202

    Greater than the Western Roman Empire? It’s not even greater than Windows Vista.
  • Options
    JonathanJonathan Posts: 20,901
    Barnesian said:

    I was once responsible for making the business case for major infrastructure projects in a large public company.

    If the infrastructure project was an add-on to an existing capability then the cost benefit case was relatively straightforward, and the accountants were happy with their spreadsheets.

    But if the infrastructure project was a component in building a new strategic capability then it was not so straightforward. The main benefit was often the "option value" it provided in enabling further undefined projects that built on or required that infrastructure. This required the CEO to recognise the strategic value and over-ride the accountants.

    However there was a danger. If you could manage to get a project labelled "strategic", then you could avoid difficult quantitative questions and get away with waving your hands around.

    Nevertheless there is a crucial difference between add-on and enabling infrastructure projects.

    The art of getting things done in a big organisation. The Trojan horse is a vital tool.
  • Options
    SlackbladderSlackbladder Posts: 9,704
    tlg86 said:

    tlg86 said:

    Sandpit said:

    tlg86 said:

    The North certainly has better roads than the South. Incidentally, if this new runway (is it getting a new terminal too?) happens at Heathrow, we should build a new motorway from the M25 at Cobham to the M3, M4 and M40 meaning that if you're going to Birmingham and the Northwest you don't have to go on the M25 past Heathrow.

    ISTR a couple of decades ago, a plan to link the M3 and M4 with a new road east of Bracknell from M3 J3 to M4 J8/9. The problem is that there’s a lot of very influential people with very expensive houses in places like Ascot and Winkfield, who didn’t want a trunk road within five miles of where they lived!
    **** 'em.
    That would be a mess, (I live in Bagshot, so right where that would be). But it's a mess anyway.

    Edit: but looking at the map, there would really be no way through at all.

    This area of the country is just too densely populated compared with the current intrastructure.
    How much would a tunnel cost?

    EDIT: But you're right. When the scheme was originally envisaged, the area wasn't as densely populated. If you live in Bagshot you'll know what the roads round our area are like.
    Yep terrible. The whole of the SW London infrastructure is at breaking point. Not to be helped with the expansion of Heathrwo, but its really the only place it could be. Gatwick is too far out.
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    SquareRootSquareRoot Posts: 7,095
    notme said:

    HYUFD said:

    Justin Welby, the Archbishop of Canterbury, comes out as a Remainer 'the EU has been the greatest thing for human beings since the Western Roman Empire'

    https://mobile.twitter.com/wareisjoe/status/1003984057787699202

    Greater than the Western Roman Empire? It’s not even greater than Windows Vista.
    it depends on your point of view. The rabid Brexit loons are dragging us back towards Windows Vista...
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    SlackbladderSlackbladder Posts: 9,704
    notme said:

    HYUFD said:

    Justin Welby, the Archbishop of Canterbury, comes out as a Remainer 'the EU has been the greatest thing for human beings since the Western Roman Empire'

    https://mobile.twitter.com/wareisjoe/status/1003984057787699202

    Greater than the Western Roman Empire? It’s not even greater than Windows Vista.
    Anyone told Welby how the CoE came into being in the first place?
  • Options
    SandpitSandpit Posts: 49,897

    tlg86 said:

    Sandpit said:

    tlg86 said:

    The North certainly has better roads than the South. Incidentally, if this new runway (is it getting a new terminal too?) happens at Heathrow, we should build a new motorway from the M25 at Cobham to the M3, M4 and M40 meaning that if you're going to Birmingham and the Northwest you don't have to go on the M25 past Heathrow.

    ISTR a couple of decades ago, a plan to link the M3 and M4 with a new road east of Bracknell from M3 J3 to M4 J8/9. The problem is that there’s a lot of very influential people with very expensive houses in places like Ascot and Winkfield, who didn’t want a trunk road within five miles of where they lived!
    **** 'em.
    That would be a mess, (I live in Bagshot, so right where that would be). But it's a mess anyway.

    Edit: but looking at the map, there would really be no way through at all.

    This area of the country is just too densely populated compared with the current intrastructure.
    Yes, you’d be knocking down an awful lot of houses to get any route that would bypass the Heathrow section of the M25. It looks quite green on the map, but when you zoom in it’s all just very leafy housing - apart from the bit that’s Windsor Great Park and Ascot Racecourse!
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    Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 60,983
    Welby's doing down of the Eastern Empire is daft.
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    BarnesianBarnesian Posts: 7,989
    DavidL said:

    Barnesian said:

    HYUFD said:

    On topic, sort of. Interesting article in the Guardian, https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2018/jun/06/rural-town-austerity-buses-witney

    There’s an issue around rural buses, and the fact that rural, and indeed semi-rual non-drivers, for whatever reason, can be very isolated without them. Even in Essex there are communities with none, or only one a week.

    If more people used rural buses then bus companies would provide more of them
    If bus companies provided more rural buses then more people would use them.

    A pure market theory doesn't work very well on infrastructure.
    How many people? I see many buses in the village picking up 2-3 people. It doesn't pay for the fuel, let alone the driver. And most of those using the bus don't even pay because they have a bus pass. I don't see how you justify more "investment" or subsidy to that.
    I agree. The justification for rural connectivity is a social good rather than an economic good. You can justifiably argue that if people choose to live in beautiful countryside and are wealthy enough they should pay for their connectivity including higher charges for postage stamps.

    However the justification for connectivity in large Northern conurbations is entirely different. It is an economic justification based on enabling capabilities and requires a powerful champion to counter the accountants in the Treasury.
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    CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758
    HYUFD said:

    Justin Welby, the Archbishop of Canterbury, comes out as a Remainer 'the EU has been the greatest thing for human beings since the Western Roman Empire'

    https://mobile.twitter.com/wareisjoe/status/1003984057787699202

    ++Justin can be silly sometimes
This discussion has been closed.