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politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » Theresa May’s staunchest supporter in the media announces his

SystemSystem Posts: 6,389
edited June 7 in General

imagepoliticalbetting.com » Blog Archive » Theresa May’s staunchest supporter in the media announces his departure but could it be good news for her?

Picture: Depending on your view the (in)famous Daily Mail front page the day after Theresa May called a snap election.

Read the full story here


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Comments

  • Ishmael_ZIshmael_Z Posts: 5,891
    The greatest career-destroying pratfall over a deranged right wing leader in the UK press since Dacre. He'd have done better to retire when Cameron did.
  • TheJezziahTheJezziah Posts: 1,549
    I do wonder if the sometimes extreme levels the Daily Mail go to attacking Labour aren't actually a net positive for Labour, whilst I would like a slightly less OTT Daily Mail I can see some advantages to their current style.
  • SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 27,177

    I do wonder if the sometimes extreme levels the Daily Mail go to attacking Labour aren't actually a net positive for Labour, whilst I would like a slightly less OTT Daily Mail I can see some advantages to their current style.

    The one unquestionably positive thing Corbyn has done for Labour is to teach the party not to be afraid of the right wing press. It’s a hugely important lesson.

  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 21,454
    Peter Stringfellow has died.

    RIP.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 23,409

    Peter Stringfellow has died.

    RIP.

    He recently quit the Conservative Party, because he felt they were too ideologically committed to Brexit.

    Coincidence?
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 21,454
    rcs1000 said:

    Peter Stringfellow has died.

    RIP.

    He recently quit the Conservative Party, because he felt they were too ideologically committed to Brexit.

    Coincidence?
    I hear he had some connection with Finchley Road as well ...
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 21,454
    Off-topic: Tesla, ouch:

    "On Monday, Business Insider revealed that internal Tesla documents show that up to 40 percent of the Gigafactory's output has to be scrapped or reworked."

    I've no idea what the industry standard is, but that must hurt.
  • SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 27,177
    How to get the hard Brexit you want, while pretending not to:
    1. Abstain on a vote for the UK to stay in the EEA, so ensuring that it is not passed.
    2. Table your own motion about creating a hybrid, undefined single market that you know no Tory will back & so will fall.
    Bingo!!
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 23,409

    How to get the hard Brexit you want, while pretending not to:
    1. Abstain on a vote for the UK to stay in the EEA, so ensuring that it is not passed.
    2. Table your own motion about creating a hybrid, undefined single market that you know no Tory will back & so will fall.
    Bingo!!

    You forgot

    3. ?????
    4. Profit
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 19,723
    rcs1000 said:

    Peter Stringfellow has died.

    RIP.

    He recently quit the Conservative Party, because he felt they were too ideologically committed to Brexit.

    Coincidence?
    I thought it was supposed to be the Brexiteers who were all popping off.....?
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 23,409

    rcs1000 said:

    Peter Stringfellow has died.

    RIP.

    He recently quit the Conservative Party, because he felt they were too ideologically committed to Brexit.

    Coincidence?
    I thought it was supposed to be the Brexiteers who were all popping off.....?
    They're the ones dying of natural causes.

    But that Peter Stringfellow looked pretty healthy last time I saw him.
  • GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 2,799
    Interesting article about US foreign policy in Europe:

    https://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2018/06/trump-is-choosing-eastern-europe/562130/

    “Rhetorically, the Trump administration supports Brexit. In practice, it has pursued a predatory policy in response to Brexit, designed to exploit the government’s need for new trading arrangements. Essentially, the Trump administration is using Britain’s need to join the World Trade Organization as an individual state to force it to accept painful concessions in a number of trade and services sectors, exploiting the fact that it has less leverage outside the EU. Meanwhile, in bilateral trade talks, the Trump administration is pushing Britain to accept the U.S. regulatory framework, or at least opt out of the EU single market and customs union. This will benefit U.S. economic interests in the short term, but make it much tougher for London to reach an agreement with the rest of the EU.

    The Trump administration, then, is treating Britain as an easy mark, not as a vital strategic ally.”
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 21,454

    Interesting article about US foreign policy in Europe:

    https://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2018/06/trump-is-choosing-eastern-europe/562130/

    “Rhetorically, the Trump administration supports Brexit. In practice, it has pursued a predatory policy in response to Brexit, designed to exploit the government’s need for new trading arrangements. Essentially, the Trump administration is using Britain’s need to join the World Trade Organization as an individual state to force it to accept painful concessions in a number of trade and services sectors, exploiting the fact that it has less leverage outside the EU. Meanwhile, in bilateral trade talks, the Trump administration is pushing Britain to accept the U.S. regulatory framework, or at least opt out of the EU single market and customs union. This will benefit U.S. economic interests in the short term, but make it much tougher for London to reach an agreement with the rest of the EU.

    The Trump administration, then, is treating Britain as an easy mark, not as a vital strategic ally.”

    Wow. I am *really* surprised.

    (Sarcasm mode off)
  • AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 21,334
    The Mail will be making a commercial decision. The editorial line will evolve rather than swing violently. For that reason I would look at Leave-backing candidates.

    I expect Paul Dacre will have already sanctioned the choice.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 23,409

    Interesting article about US foreign policy in Europe:

    https://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2018/06/trump-is-choosing-eastern-europe/562130/

    “Rhetorically, the Trump administration supports Brexit. In practice, it has pursued a predatory policy in response to Brexit, designed to exploit the government’s need for new trading arrangements. Essentially, the Trump administration is using Britain’s need to join the World Trade Organization as an individual state to force it to accept painful concessions in a number of trade and services sectors, exploiting the fact that it has less leverage outside the EU. Meanwhile, in bilateral trade talks, the Trump administration is pushing Britain to accept the U.S. regulatory framework, or at least opt out of the EU single market and customs union. This will benefit U.S. economic interests in the short term, but make it much tougher for London to reach an agreement with the rest of the EU.

    The Trump administration, then, is treating Britain as an easy mark, not as a vital strategic ally.”

    Ultimately, the US under President Trump is not a fan of rules based organisations. He want a series of bilateral treaties where the US has all the power, and "free trade" is in the gift of the administration depending on the extent to which the line is towed.
  • logical_songlogical_song Posts: 6,290

    I do wonder if the sometimes extreme levels the Daily Mail go to attacking Labour aren't actually a net positive for Labour, whilst I would like a slightly less OTT Daily Mail I can see some advantages to their current style.

    The one unquestionably positive thing Corbyn has done for Labour is to teach the party not to be afraid of the right wing press. It’s a hugely important lesson.

    If only the Tory party could learn that lesson too.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 46,071
    rcs1000 said:

    Peter Stringfellow has died.

    RIP.

    He recently quit the Conservative Party, because he felt they were too ideologically committed to Brexit.

    Coincidence?
    Yes
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 9,084

    The Mail will be making a commercial decision. The editorial line will evolve rather than swing violently. For that reason I would look at Leave-backing candidates.

    I expect Paul Dacre will have already sanctioned the choice.

    George Osborne. Just for a laugh.
  • not_on_firenot_on_fire Posts: 2,481
    Jonathan said:

    The Mail will be making a commercial decision. The editorial line will evolve rather than swing violently. For that reason I would look at Leave-backing candidates.

    I expect Paul Dacre will have already sanctioned the choice.

    George Osborne. Just for a laugh.
    Guido?
  • AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 21,334
    Jonathan said:

    The Mail will be making a commercial decision. The editorial line will evolve rather than swing violently. For that reason I would look at Leave-backing candidates.

    I expect Paul Dacre will have already sanctioned the choice.

    George Osborne. Just for a laugh.
    The Mail don’t have the luxury of laughs. Newspaper sales remain in freefall across the industry: the Mail’s own newspaper circulation dropped 11% in the year to April.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 4,637

    The Mail will be making a commercial decision. The editorial line will evolve rather than swing violently. For that reason I would look at Leave-backing candidates.

    I expect Paul Dacre will have already sanctioned the choice.

    Greig from Mail on Sunday would be a likely choice. It has always been Brexit sceptic.

    How poor Dacre's front pages cheeleading Weak and Wobbly look now.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 19,723
    rcs1000 said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Peter Stringfellow has died.

    RIP.

    He recently quit the Conservative Party, because he felt they were too ideologically committed to Brexit.

    Coincidence?
    I thought it was supposed to be the Brexiteers who were all popping off.....?
    They're the ones dying of natural causes.

    But that Peter Stringfellow looked pretty healthy last time I saw him.
    Cancer.
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 9,084
    edited June 7

    Jonathan said:

    The Mail will be making a commercial decision. The editorial line will evolve rather than swing violently. For that reason I would look at Leave-backing candidates.

    I expect Paul Dacre will have already sanctioned the choice.

    George Osborne. Just for a laugh.
    The Mail don’t have the luxury of laughs. Newspaper sales remain in freefall across the industry: the Mail’s own newspaper circulation dropped 11% in the year to April.
    It's a genius product. Maintaining a prudish morality, whilst at the same time the sidebar of shame and "outrage at nudity",exposed with full colour photographs on pages 4-77.

    The main qualification of the editor is to maintain a certain intellectual and moral flexibility.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 46,071
    edited June 7

    Jonathan said:

    The Mail will be making a commercial decision. The editorial line will evolve rather than swing violently. For that reason I would look at Leave-backing candidates.

    I expect Paul Dacre will have already sanctioned the choice.

    George Osborne. Just for a laugh.
    Guido?
    More probable than Osborne. Personally I'd remove the ''s" at a guess in George's surname.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 7,629
    edited June 7
    rcs1000 said:

    Interesting article about US foreign policy in Europe:

    https://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2018/06/trump-is-choosing-eastern-europe/562130/

    “Rhetorically, the Trump administration supports Brexit. In practice, it has pursued a predatory policy in response to Brexit, designed to exploit the government’s need for new trading arrangements. Essentially, the Trump administration is using Britain’s need to join the World Trade Organization as an individual state to force it to accept painful concessions in a number of trade and services sectors, exploiting the fact that it has less leverage outside the EU. Meanwhile, in bilateral trade talks, the Trump administration is pushing Britain to accept the U.S. regulatory framework, or at least opt out of the EU single market and customs union. This will benefit U.S. economic interests in the short term, but make it much tougher for London to reach an agreement with the rest of the EU.

    The Trump administration, then, is treating Britain as an easy mark, not as a vital strategic ally.”

    Ultimately, the US under President Trump is not a fan of rules based organisations. He want a series of bilateral treaties where the US has all the power, and "free trade" is in the gift of the administration depending on the extent to which the line is towed.
    Toed.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toe_the_line

    'Rules based organisations' in Trump's case presumably include the criminal justice system ?
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 9,084
    The obvious choice is Sarah Vine.

    Thereby creating the ultimate dream ticket.
  • TheJezziahTheJezziah Posts: 1,549
    edited June 7

    I do wonder if the sometimes extreme levels the Daily Mail go to attacking Labour aren't actually a net positive for Labour, whilst I would like a slightly less OTT Daily Mail I can see some advantages to their current style.

    The one unquestionably positive thing Corbyn has done for Labour is to teach the party not to be afraid of the right wing press. It’s a hugely important lesson.

    If only the Tory party could learn that lesson too.
    Firstly to jump back up a quote, absolutely Southam, I see that as one of the biggest positives.

    Secondly onto this quote, I feel it isn't true to the same extent it is with the Labour party, I wouldn't suggest that the Tories are mindless (also Labour voters and everyone else have their influences as well) and just do what the papers tell them but I do feel that the newspapers have a large influence over the age groups that heavily vote Tory.

    There could be less kowtowing say (if people feel they are currently) but I would assume it would still need to be something of a relationship.

    Thirdly, the things that worry me most about Brexit usually revolve around America, I'm not usually a fan of their politics or politicians at the best of times.
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 17,358
    rcs1000 said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Peter Stringfellow has died.

    RIP.

    He recently quit the Conservative Party, because he felt they were too ideologically committed to Brexit.

    Coincidence?
    I thought it was supposed to be the Brexiteers who were all popping off.....?
    They're the ones dying of natural causes.

    But that Peter Stringfellow looked pretty healthy last time I saw him.
    Sky reporting he was diagnosed with cancer 12 months ago and kept it secret and hoped it was not too serious
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 22,352

    Jonathan said:

    The Mail will be making a commercial decision. The editorial line will evolve rather than swing violently. For that reason I would look at Leave-backing candidates.

    I expect Paul Dacre will have already sanctioned the choice.

    George Osborne. Just for a laugh.
    The Mail don’t have the luxury of laughs. Newspaper sales remain in freefall across the industry: the Mail’s own newspaper circulation dropped 11% in the year to April.
    Whilst that is true the Mail seems to have been more successful than most in monetising their online presence. I can imagine that an old fashioned newspaper man like Dacre will have found it increasingly painful that this is achieved by an endless supply of celebrity pap and beach photos. Journalism seems to be an endangered profession.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 21,454
    Are the BBC trolling us with their rather large coverage of the tragic death of Kate Spade? I'd never heard of her - then again, I wouldn't exactly have been her target market. But I've asked several women from various backgrounds yesterday, and none of them had heard of her either.

    I'm awaiting a news organisation to announce the death of a 'celebrity' that they had just invented, and watch all the other media organisations pick it up ...
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 25,529
    Jonathan said:

    Jonathan said:

    The Mail will be making a commercial decision. The editorial line will evolve rather than swing violently. For that reason I would look at Leave-backing candidates.

    I expect Paul Dacre will have already sanctioned the choice.

    George Osborne. Just for a laugh.
    The Mail don’t have the luxury of laughs. Newspaper sales remain in freefall across the industry: the Mail’s own newspaper circulation dropped 11% in the year to April.
    It's a genius product. Maintaining a prudish morality, whilst at the same time the sidebar of shame and "outrage at nudity",exposed with full colour photographs on pages 4-77.

    The main qualification of the editor is to maintain a certain intellectual and moral flexibility.
    It’s hated by many because it understands, and plays on, the human hypocrisy we all have.

    As it happens, I think Dacre was a journalist of exceptional talent and more often than his detractors would like to admit there was writing in his paper of a quality unfound anywhere else.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 12,652
    rcs1000 said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Peter Stringfellow has died.

    RIP.

    He recently quit the Conservative Party, because he felt they were too ideologically committed to Brexit.

    Coincidence?
    I thought it was supposed to be the Brexiteers who were all popping off.....?
    They're the ones dying of natural causes.

    But that Peter Stringfellow looked pretty healthy last time I saw him.
    He had cancer, apparently.

    And he died in bed...
  • DecrepitJohnLDecrepitJohnL Posts: 9,287
    rcs1000 said:

    Interesting article about US foreign policy in Europe:

    https://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2018/06/trump-is-choosing-eastern-europe/562130/

    “Rhetorically, the Trump administration supports Brexit. In practice, it has pursued a predatory policy in response to Brexit, designed to exploit the government’s need for new trading arrangements. Essentially, the Trump administration is using Britain’s need to join the World Trade Organization as an individual state to force it to accept painful concessions in a number of trade and services sectors, exploiting the fact that it has less leverage outside the EU. Meanwhile, in bilateral trade talks, the Trump administration is pushing Britain to accept the U.S. regulatory framework, or at least opt out of the EU single market and customs union. This will benefit U.S. economic interests in the short term, but make it much tougher for London to reach an agreement with the rest of the EU.

    The Trump administration, then, is treating Britain as an easy mark, not as a vital strategic ally.”

    Ultimately, the US under President Trump is not a fan of rules based organisations. He want a series of bilateral treaties where the US has all the power, and "free trade" is in the gift of the administration depending on the extent to which the line is towed.
    The US even not under Trump will insist on American standards and American tribunals. Things we were supposed to be escaping with Brexit, only worse.
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 19,534

    Interesting article about US foreign policy in Europe:

    https://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2018/06/trump-is-choosing-eastern-europe/562130/

    “Rhetorically, the Trump administration supports Brexit. In practice, it has pursued a predatory policy in response to Brexit, designed to exploit the government’s need for new trading arrangements. Essentially, the Trump administration is using Britain’s need to join the World Trade Organization as an individual state to force it to accept painful concessions in a number of trade and services sectors, exploiting the fact that it has less leverage outside the EU. Meanwhile, in bilateral trade talks, the Trump administration is pushing Britain to accept the U.S. regulatory framework, or at least opt out of the EU single market and customs union. This will benefit U.S. economic interests in the short term, but make it much tougher for London to reach an agreement with the rest of the EU.

    The Trump administration, then, is treating Britain as an easy mark, not as a vital strategic ally.”

    Wow. I am *really* surprised.

    (Sarcasm mode off)
    Who would ever have imagined given that "Special Relationship".
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 9,084

    Jonathan said:

    Jonathan said:

    The Mail will be making a commercial decision. The editorial line will evolve rather than swing violently. For that reason I would look at Leave-backing candidates.

    I expect Paul Dacre will have already sanctioned the choice.

    George Osborne. Just for a laugh.
    The Mail don’t have the luxury of laughs. Newspaper sales remain in freefall across the industry: the Mail’s own newspaper circulation dropped 11% in the year to April.
    It's a genius product. Maintaining a prudish morality, whilst at the same time the sidebar of shame and "outrage at nudity",exposed with full colour photographs on pages 4-77.

    The main qualification of the editor is to maintain a certain intellectual and moral flexibility.
    It’s hated by many because it understands, and plays on, the human hypocrisy we all have.

    As it happens, I think Dacre was a journalist of exceptional talent and more often than his detractors would like to admit there was writing in his paper of a quality unfound anywhere else.
    You only need to look at the Daily Express to see what the Mail could become without Dacre.

    A malign force, but undoubtedly very, very clever
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 7,629

    Jonathan said:

    Jonathan said:

    The Mail will be making a commercial decision. The editorial line will evolve rather than swing violently. For that reason I would look at Leave-backing candidates.

    I expect Paul Dacre will have already sanctioned the choice.

    George Osborne. Just for a laugh.
    The Mail don’t have the luxury of laughs. Newspaper sales remain in freefall across the industry: the Mail’s own newspaper circulation dropped 11% in the year to April.
    It's a genius product. Maintaining a prudish morality, whilst at the same time the sidebar of shame and "outrage at nudity",exposed with full colour photographs on pages 4-77.

    The main qualification of the editor is to maintain a certain intellectual and moral flexibility.
    ...there was writing in his paper of a quality unfound anywhere else.
    I think we can all agree on that.
    :smile:
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 7,629
    I don't know quite how accurate these figures are, but it seems as though McLaren's decision to ditch Honda was an act of self harm possibly on a par with Brexit:
    https://www.racefans.net/2018/06/06/why-mclaren-is-failing-to-attain-f1-perfection/
    The switch meant leasing customer Renault engines at the going rate, namely £18m plus a re-engineering programme; Honda also demanded a severance package, said to be £20m annually through to end-2020. Add in the loss of Honda’s commercial package (estimated at £60m per season) and Alonso’s earnings (£30m), and the financial swing borders on half a billion dollars over three years.

    This reckons without the debilitating loss of sponsors and reduction in McLaren’s F1’s revenues since 2014 – potentially worth another quarter of a billion dollars – which Honda allegedly indemnified McLaren against while the contract was in force…
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 4,637

    rcs1000 said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Peter Stringfellow has died.

    RIP.

    He recently quit the Conservative Party, because he felt they were too ideologically committed to Brexit.

    Coincidence?
    I thought it was supposed to be the Brexiteers who were all popping off.....?
    They're the ones dying of natural causes.

    But that Peter Stringfellow looked pretty healthy last time I saw him.
    Sky reporting he was diagnosed with cancer 12 months ago and kept it secret and hoped it was not too serious
    He had lung cancer once before, apparently.

    Always a bit sleazy, but good at his job it seems. Much like Dacre.
  • GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 2,799
    malcolmg said:

    Interesting article about US foreign policy in Europe:

    https://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2018/06/trump-is-choosing-eastern-europe/562130/

    “Rhetorically, the Trump administration supports Brexit. In practice, it has pursued a predatory policy in response to Brexit, designed to exploit the government’s need for new trading arrangements. Essentially, the Trump administration is using Britain’s need to join the World Trade Organization as an individual state to force it to accept painful concessions in a number of trade and services sectors, exploiting the fact that it has less leverage outside the EU. Meanwhile, in bilateral trade talks, the Trump administration is pushing Britain to accept the U.S. regulatory framework, or at least opt out of the EU single market and customs union. This will benefit U.S. economic interests in the short term, but make it much tougher for London to reach an agreement with the rest of the EU.

    The Trump administration, then, is treating Britain as an easy mark, not as a vital strategic ally.”

    Wow. I am *really* surprised.

    (Sarcasm mode off)
    Who would ever have imagined given that "Special Relationship".
    Striking too, reading memoirs of Obama’s National Security Advisor, how much Britain has withdrawn from the world, post Brexit.

    So far, Brexit has made us poorer, led to the most chaotic government in living memory, and made us weaker - in Europe, with key allies, and around the world.

    Incredibly hard to think of a precedent. Suez perhaps most appropriate - a geopolitical shock causiing a run on sterling, capitulation to the US, and recourse to IMF funding. But in the longer term, the lesson from Suez was that U.K. could not ignore...Europe. What will Brexit’s lesson be?
  • AlistairAlistair Posts: 9,930
    edited June 7
    rcs1000 said:

    Interesting article about US foreign policy in Europe:

    https://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2018/06/trump-is-choosing-eastern-europe/562130/

    “Rhetorically, the Trump administration supports Brexit. In practice, it has pursued a predatory policy in response to Brexit, designed to exploit the government’s need for new trading arrangements. Essentially, the Trump administration is using Britain’s need to join the World Trade Organization as an individual state to force it to accept painful concessions in a number of trade and services sectors, exploiting the fact that it has less leverage outside the EU. Meanwhile, in bilateral trade talks, the Trump administration is pushing Britain to accept the U.S. regulatory framework, or at least opt out of the EU single market and customs union. This will benefit U.S. economic interests in the short term, but make it much tougher for London to reach an agreement with the rest of the EU.

    The Trump administration, then, is treating Britain as an easy mark, not as a vital strategic ally.”

    Ultimately, the US under President Trump is not a fan of rules based organisations. He want a series of bilateral treaties where the US has all the power, and "free trade" is in the gift of the administration depending on the extent to which the line is towed.
    Trump basically doesn't believe any deal can be win-win, it's all zero sum there must be winners and losers, a scammer and a scamee so to speak.

    So all the existing deals that countries entered into willingly with the US must have been losses for the USA.
  • not_on_firenot_on_fire Posts: 2,481

    malcolmg said:

    Interesting article about US foreign policy in Europe:

    https://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2018/06/trump-is-choosing-eastern-europe/562130/

    “Rhetorically, the Trump administration supports Brexit. In practice, it has pursued a predatory policy in response to Brexit, designed to exploit the government’s need for new trading arrangements. Essentially, the Trump administration is using Britain’s need to join the World Trade Organization as an individual state to force it to accept painful concessions in a number of trade and services sectors, exploiting the fact that it has less leverage outside the EU. Meanwhile, in bilateral trade talks, the Trump administration is pushing Britain to accept the U.S. regulatory framework, or at least opt out of the EU single market and customs union. This will benefit U.S. economic interests in the short term, but make it much tougher for London to reach an agreement with the rest of the EU.

    The Trump administration, then, is treating Britain as an easy mark, not as a vital strategic ally.”

    Wow. I am *really* surprised.

    (Sarcasm mode off)
    Who would ever have imagined given that "Special Relationship".
    Striking too, reading memoirs of Obama’s National Security Advisor, how much Britain has withdrawn from the world, post Brexit.

    So far, Brexit has made us poorer, led to the most chaotic government in living memory, and made us weaker - in Europe, with key allies, and around the world.

    Incredibly hard to think of a precedent. Suez perhaps most appropriate - a geopolitical shock causiing a run on sterling, capitulation to the US, and recourse to IMF funding. But in the longer term, the lesson from Suez was that U.K. could not ignore...Europe. What will Brexit’s lesson be?
    Don’t believe what you read on the side of a bus?
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 21,454
    Nigelb said:

    I don't know quite how accurate these figures are, but it seems as though McLaren's decision to ditch Honda was an act of self harm possibly on a par with Brexit:
    https://www.racefans.net/2018/06/06/why-mclaren-is-failing-to-attain-f1-perfection/
    The switch meant leasing customer Renault engines at the going rate, namely £18m plus a re-engineering programme; Honda also demanded a severance package, said to be £20m annually through to end-2020. Add in the loss of Honda’s commercial package (estimated at £60m per season) and Alonso’s earnings (£30m), and the financial swing borders on half a billion dollars over three years.

    This reckons without the debilitating loss of sponsors and reduction in McLaren’s F1’s revenues since 2014 – potentially worth another quarter of a billion dollars – which Honda allegedly indemnified McLaren against while the contract was in force…

    McLaren need a win. Honda were not providing them with an engine good enough to keep up with the midfield, yet alone the front-runners. And they were (mostly) polite to each other, even through straitened times.

    Compare and contrast with the way Red Bull has treated Renault. RB have been utterly sh*tty.

    I'd also be surprised by those figures (which they admit are worst-case).

    And BTW, twenty years ago or more I was pointing out the dip in form McLaren gets when they start diversifying, especially into road cars. Its good to see the media catch up. ;)
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 68,878

    malcolmg said:

    Interesting article about US foreign policy in Europe:

    https://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2018/06/trump-is-choosing-eastern-europe/562130/

    “Rhetorically, the Trump administration supports Brexit. In practice, it has pursued a predatory policy in response to Brexit, designed to exploit the government’s need for new trading arrangements. Essentially, the Trump administration is using Britain’s need to join the World Trade Organization as an individual state to force it to accept painful concessions in a number of trade and services sectors, exploiting the fact that it has less leverage outside the EU. Meanwhile, in bilateral trade talks, the Trump administration is pushing Britain to accept the U.S. regulatory framework, or at least opt out of the EU single market and customs union. This will benefit U.S. economic interests in the short term, but make it much tougher for London to reach an agreement with the rest of the EU.

    The Trump administration, then, is treating Britain as an easy mark, not as a vital strategic ally.”

    Wow. I am *really* surprised.

    (Sarcasm mode off)
    Who would ever have imagined given that "Special Relationship".
    Striking too, reading memoirs of Obama’s National Security Advisor, how much Britain has withdrawn from the world, post Brexit.

    So far, Brexit has made us poorer, led to the most chaotic government in living memory, and made us weaker - in Europe, with key allies, and around the world.

    Incredibly hard to think of a precedent. Suez perhaps most appropriate - a geopolitical shock causiing a run on sterling, capitulation to the US, and recourse to IMF funding. But in the longer term, the lesson from Suez was that U.K. could not ignore...Europe. What will Brexit’s lesson be?
    Leavers should be charged with treason.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 25,529

    I do wonder if the sometimes extreme levels the Daily Mail go to attacking Labour aren't actually a net positive for Labour, whilst I would like a slightly less OTT Daily Mail I can see some advantages to their current style.

    The one unquestionably positive thing Corbyn has done for Labour is to teach the party not to be afraid of the right wing press. It’s a hugely important lesson.

    That’s more a function of the demographic that now reads newspapers, and the declining role of the printed press, rather than any great political battle Labour has won.

    That said, they are streets ahead of the Tories in social media.
  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 17,781

    malcolmg said:

    Interesting article about US foreign policy in Europe:

    https://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2018/06/trump-is-choosing-eastern-europe/562130/

    “Rhetorically, the Trump administration supports Brexit. In practice, it has pursued a predatory policy in response to Brexit, designed to exploit the government’s need for new trading arrangements. Essentially, the Trump administration is using Britain’s need to join the World Trade Organization as an individual state to force it to accept painful concessions in a number of trade and services sectors, exploiting the fact that it has less leverage outside the EU. Meanwhile, in bilateral trade talks, the Trump administration is pushing Britain to accept the U.S. regulatory framework, or at least opt out of the EU single market and customs union. This will benefit U.S. economic interests in the short term, but make it much tougher for London to reach an agreement with the rest of the EU.

    The Trump administration, then, is treating Britain as an easy mark, not as a vital strategic ally.”

    Wow. I am *really* surprised.

    (Sarcasm mode off)
    Who would ever have imagined given that "Special Relationship".
    Striking too, reading memoirs of Obama’s National Security Advisor, how much Britain has withdrawn from the world, post Brexit.

    So far, Brexit has made us poorer, led to the most chaotic government in living memory, and made us weaker - in Europe, with key allies, and around the world.

    Incredibly hard to think of a precedent. Suez perhaps most appropriate - a geopolitical shock causiing a run on sterling, capitulation to the US, and recourse to IMF funding. But in the longer term, the lesson from Suez was that U.K. could not ignore...Europe. What will Brexit’s lesson be?
    If this means fewer of our young people will come back in body bags from fighting someone else's wars then good.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 25,529
    Foxy said:

    The Mail will be making a commercial decision. The editorial line will evolve rather than swing violently. For that reason I would look at Leave-backing candidates.

    I expect Paul Dacre will have already sanctioned the choice.

    Greig from Mail on Sunday would be a likely choice. It has always been Brexit sceptic.

    How poor Dacre's front pages cheeleading Weak and Wobbly look now.
    I don’t think the Mail is looking to please you with its choice of editor.

    It will choose someone who doesn’t offend its readership base, not the opposite.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 25,529
    Jonathan said:

    Jonathan said:

    Jonathan said:

    The Mail will be making a commercial decision. The editorial line will evolve rather than swing violently. For that reason I would look at Leave-backing candidates.

    I expect Paul Dacre will have already sanctioned the choice.

    George Osborne. Just for a laugh.
    The Mail don’t have the luxury of laughs. Newspaper sales remain in freefall across the industry: the Mail’s own newspaper circulation dropped 11% in the year to April.
    It's a genius product. Maintaining a prudish morality, whilst at the same time the sidebar of shame and "outrage at nudity",exposed with full colour photographs on pages 4-77.

    The main qualification of the editor is to maintain a certain intellectual and moral flexibility.
    It’s hated by many because it understands, and plays on, the human hypocrisy we all have.

    As it happens, I think Dacre was a journalist of exceptional talent and more often than his detractors would like to admit there was writing in his paper of a quality unfound anywhere else.
    You only need to look at the Daily Express to see what the Mail could become without Dacre.

    A malign force, but undoubtedly very, very clever
    I don’t think the Mail is malign.
  • DecrepitJohnLDecrepitJohnL Posts: 9,287

    malcolmg said:

    Interesting article about US foreign policy in Europe:

    https://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2018/06/trump-is-choosing-eastern-europe/562130/

    “Rhetorically, the Trump administration supports Brexit. In practice, it has pursued a predatory policy in response to Brexit, designed to exploit the government’s need for new trading arrangements. Essentially, the Trump administration is using Britain’s need to join the World Trade Organization as an individual state to force it to accept painful concessions in a number of trade and services sectors, exploiting the fact that it has less leverage outside the EU. Meanwhile, in bilateral trade talks, the Trump administration is pushing Britain to accept the U.S. regulatory framework, or at least opt out of the EU single market and customs union. This will benefit U.S. economic interests in the short term, but make it much tougher for London to reach an agreement with the rest of the EU.

    The Trump administration, then, is treating Britain as an easy mark, not as a vital strategic ally.”

    Wow. I am *really* surprised.

    (Sarcasm mode off)
    Who would ever have imagined given that "Special Relationship".
    Striking too, reading memoirs of Obama’s National Security Advisor, how much Britain has withdrawn from the world, post Brexit.

    So far, Brexit has made us poorer, led to the most chaotic government in living memory, and made us weaker - in Europe, with key allies, and around the world.

    Incredibly hard to think of a precedent. Suez perhaps most appropriate - a geopolitical shock causiing a run on sterling, capitulation to the US, and recourse to IMF funding. But in the longer term, the lesson from Suez was that U.K. could not ignore...Europe. What will Brexit’s lesson be?
    Don’t believe what you read on the side of a bus?
    Ironically the side of the bus promise of £350 million for a week for the NHS is the most likely thing to happen. For a start, inflation and normal economic growth would get us there eventually, and it has already been leaked that funding will be increased.
  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 17,781

    malcolmg said:

    Interesting article about US foreign policy in Europe:

    https://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2018/06/trump-is-choosing-eastern-europe/562130/

    “Rhetorically, the Trump administration supports Brexit. In practice, it has pursued a predatory policy in response to Brexit, designed to exploit the government’s need for new trading arrangements. Essentially, the Trump administration is using Britain’s need to join the World Trade Organization as an individual state to force it to accept painful concessions in a number of trade and services sectors, exploiting the fact that it has less leverage outside the EU. Meanwhile, in bilateral trade talks, the Trump administration is pushing Britain to accept the U.S. regulatory framework, or at least opt out of the EU single market and customs union. This will benefit U.S. economic interests in the short term, but make it much tougher for London to reach an agreement with the rest of the EU.

    The Trump administration, then, is treating Britain as an easy mark, not as a vital strategic ally.”

    Wow. I am *really* surprised.

    (Sarcasm mode off)
    Who would ever have imagined given that "Special Relationship".
    Striking too, reading memoirs of Obama’s National Security Advisor, how much Britain has withdrawn from the world, post Brexit.

    So far, Brexit has made us poorer, led to the most chaotic government in living memory, and made us weaker - in Europe, with key allies, and around the world.

    Incredibly hard to think of a precedent. Suez perhaps most appropriate - a geopolitical shock causiing a run on sterling, capitulation to the US, and recourse to IMF funding. But in the longer term, the lesson from Suez was that U.K. could not ignore...Europe. What will Brexit’s lesson be?
    Don’t believe what you read on the side of a bus?
    Ironically the side of the bus promise of £350 million for a week for the NHS is the most likely thing to happen. For a start, inflation and normal economic growth would get us there eventually, and it has already been leaked that funding will be increased.
    yes that's looking like it will happen
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 45,446
    Good morning, everyone.

    F1: Ladbrokes has 1.25 special on Hartley being replaced this season. It does look very likely. Not great odds, though. But... tempting.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 21,454
    Jonathan said:

    Jonathan said:

    Jonathan said:

    The Mail will be making a commercial decision. The editorial line will evolve rather than swing violently. For that reason I would look at Leave-backing candidates.

    I expect Paul Dacre will have already sanctioned the choice.

    George Osborne. Just for a laugh.
    The Mail don’t have the luxury of laughs. Newspaper sales remain in freefall across the industry: the Mail’s own newspaper circulation dropped 11% in the year to April.
    It's a genius product. Maintaining a prudish morality, whilst at the same time the sidebar of shame and "outrage at nudity",exposed with full colour photographs on pages 4-77.

    The main qualification of the editor is to maintain a certain intellectual and moral flexibility.
    It’s hated by many because it understands, and plays on, the human hypocrisy we all have.

    As it happens, I think Dacre was a journalist of exceptional talent and more often than his detractors would like to admit there was writing in his paper of a quality unfound anywhere else.
    You only need to look at the Daily Express to see what the Mail could become without Dacre.

    A malign force, but undoubtedly very, very clever
    Personally I 'd say the Guardian is more malign than the Mail. Witness their shittiness over Wikileaks ...
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 19,534

    malcolmg said:

    Interesting article about US foreign policy in Europe:

    https://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2018/06/trump-is-choosing-eastern-europe/562130/

    “Rhetorically, the Trump administration supports Brexit. In practice, it has pursued a predatory policy in response to Brexit, designed to exploit the government’s need for new trading arrangements. Essentially, the Trump administration is using Britain’s need to join the World Trade Organization as an individual state to force it to accept painful concessions in a number of trade and services sectors, exploiting the fact that it has less leverage outside the EU. Meanwhile, in bilateral trade talks, the Trump administration is pushing Britain to accept the U.S. regulatory framework, or at least opt out of the EU single market and customs union. This will benefit U.S. economic interests in the short term, but make it much tougher for London to reach an agreement with the rest of the EU.

    The Trump administration, then, is treating Britain as an easy mark, not as a vital strategic ally.”

    Wow. I am *really* surprised.

    (Sarcasm mode off)
    Who would ever have imagined given that "Special Relationship".
    Striking too, reading memoirs of Obama’s National Security Advisor, how much Britain has withdrawn from the world, post Brexit.

    So far, Brexit has made us poorer, led to the most chaotic government in living memory, and made us weaker - in Europe, with key allies, and around the world.

    Incredibly hard to think of a precedent. Suez perhaps most appropriate - a geopolitical shock causiing a run on sterling, capitulation to the US, and recourse to IMF funding. But in the longer term, the lesson from Suez was that U.K. could not ignore...Europe. What will Brexit’s lesson be?
    Only sure thing is it will be a Hard one.
  • CD13CD13 Posts: 4,711
    Mr Eagles,

    I only read the Daily Mail when I get my hair cut, but I can see why it's been relatively successful. There's a lot of stories, mostly superficial, but plenty to pass the time.

    I compare it to the Guardian which also pushes it's political agenda into every story it can. They both claim as facts what they want to be true and mangle science. They're also strident in their own way. Typical tabloids, in fact. The Guardian has its air of arrogance and the Mail its self-righteousness.

    The Mail has a better set of puzzles, so it wins out for that alone. Whereas the Mail has an astrologer, the Guardian has an opinion column, but the latter sets the agenda for the BBC, so that makes it more serious.

    When I were a lad and delivered papers, the Mirror and Express were the big titles, the Mail was a poor also-ran, and the Guardian was only delivered to the funny bloke in the posh house. Times have changed but Dacre must have had something.
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 19,534

    malcolmg said:

    Interesting article about US foreign policy in Europe:

    https://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2018/06/trump-is-choosing-eastern-europe/562130/

    “Rhetorically, the Trump administration supports Brexit. In practice, it has pursued a predatory policy in response to Brexit, designed to exploit the government’s need for new trading arrangements. Essentially, the Trump administration is using Britain’s need to join the World Trade Organization as an individual state to force it to accept painful concessions in a number of trade and services sectors, exploiting the fact that it has less leverage outside the EU. Meanwhile, in bilateral trade talks, the Trump administration is pushing Britain to accept the U.S. regulatory framework, or at least opt out of the EU single market and customs union. This will benefit U.S. economic interests in the short term, but make it much tougher for London to reach an agreement with the rest of the EU.

    The Trump administration, then, is treating Britain as an easy mark, not as a vital strategic ally.”

    Wow. I am *really* surprised.

    (Sarcasm mode off)
    Who would ever have imagined given that "Special Relationship".
    Striking too, reading memoirs of Obama’s National Security Advisor, how much Britain has withdrawn from the world, post Brexit.

    So far, Brexit has made us poorer, led to the most chaotic government in living memory, and made us weaker - in Europe, with key allies, and around the world.

    Incredibly hard to think of a precedent. Suez perhaps most appropriate - a geopolitical shock causiing a run on sterling, capitulation to the US, and recourse to IMF funding. But in the longer term, the lesson from Suez was that U.K. could not ignore...Europe. What will Brexit’s lesson be?
    If this means fewer of our young people will come back in body bags from fighting someone else's wars then good.
    Morning Alan, Given we are nearly down to only Admirals and Generals nowadays and fact that they are far too busy sampling the wine cellar , we should not be involved in too many adventures in the future.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 4,637

    Foxy said:

    The Mail will be making a commercial decision. The editorial line will evolve rather than swing violently. For that reason I would look at Leave-backing candidates.

    I expect Paul Dacre will have already sanctioned the choice.

    Greig from Mail on Sunday would be a likely choice. It has always been Brexit sceptic.

    How poor Dacre's front pages cheeleading Weak and Wobbly look now.
    I don’t think the Mail is looking to please you with its choice of editor.

    It will choose someone who doesn’t offend its readership base, not the opposite.
    Sure. I do not read it, though its medical coverage is not bad at all.

    Grieg is already there in the organisation though, and trusted with the editorship of the MoS. He is amongst the most likely replacements and will strike a different tone if he does.

  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 17,781
    malcolmg said:

    malcolmg said:

    Interesting article about US foreign policy in Europe:

    https://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2018/06/trump-is-choosing-eastern-europe/562130/

    “Rhetorically, the Trump administration supports Brexit. In practice, it has pursued a predatory policy in response to Brexit, designed to exploit the government’s need for new trading arrangements. Essentially, the Trump administration is using Britain’s need to join the World Trade Organization as an individual state to force it to accept painful concessions in a number of trade and services sectors, exploiting the fact that it has less leverage outside the EU. Meanwhile, in bilateral trade talks, the Trump administration is pushing Britain to accept the U.S. regulatory framework, or at least opt out of the EU single market and customs union. This will benefit U.S. economic interests in the short term, but make it much tougher for London to reach an agreement with the rest of the EU.

    The Trump administration, then, is treating Britain as an easy mark, not as a vital strategic ally.”

    Wow. I am *really* surprised.

    (Sarcasm mode off)
    Who would ever have imagined given that "Special Relationship".
    Striking too, reading memoirs of Obama’s National Security Advisor, how much Britain has withdrawn from the world, post Brexit.

    So far, Brexit has made us poorer, led to the most chaotic government in living memory, and made us weaker - in Europe, with key allies, and around the world.

    Incredibly hard to think of a precedent. Suez perhaps most appropriate - a geopolitical shock causiing a run on sterling, capitulation to the US, and recourse to IMF funding. But in the longer term, the lesson from Suez was that U.K. could not ignore...Europe. What will Brexit’s lesson be?
    If this means fewer of our young people will come back in body bags from fighting someone else's wars then good.
    Morning Alan, Given we are nearly down to only Admirals and Generals nowadays and fact that they are far too busy sampling the wine cellar , we should not be involved in too many adventures in the future.
    you have to laugh malc

    all these we want to strut the world types haven't got their heads round Europe as whole is destined to be a back water the future is in Africa and Asia and they will push their own values and tell westerners to piss off.

    in 1950 Europeans were about 20% of world population by 2050 they'll be about 5% and falling
  • GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 2,799

    malcolmg said:

    Interesting article about US foreign policy in Europe:

    https://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2018/06/trump-is-choosing-eastern-europe/562130/

    “Rhetorically, the Trump administration supports Brexit. In practice, it has pursued a predatory policy in response to Brexit, designed to exploit the government’s need for new trading arrangements. Essentially, the Trump administration is using Britain’s need to join the World Trade Organization as an individual state to force it to accept painful concessions in a number of trade and services sectors, exploiting the fact that it has less leverage outside the EU. Meanwhile, in bilateral trade talks, the Trump administration is pushing Britain to accept the U.S. regulatory framework, or at least opt out of the EU single market and customs union. This will benefit U.S. economic interests in the short term, but make it much tougher for London to reach an agreement with the rest of the EU.

    The Trump administration, then, is treating Britain as an easy mark, not as a vital strategic ally.”

    Wow. I am *really* surprised.

    (Sarcasm mode off)
    Who would ever have imagined given that "Special Relationship".
    Striking too, reading memoirs of Obama’s National Security Advisor, how much Britain has withdrawn from the world, post Brexit.

    So far, Brexit has made us poorer, led to the most chaotic government in living memory, and made us weaker - in Europe, with key allies, and around the world.

    Incredibly hard to think of a precedent. Suez perhaps most appropriate - a geopolitical shock causiing a run on sterling, capitulation to the US, and recourse to IMF funding. But in the longer term, the lesson from Suez was that U.K. could not ignore...Europe. What will Brexit’s lesson be?
    If this means fewer of our young people will come back in body bags from fighting someone else's wars then good.
    If you see geopolitical influence as to be measured in bodybags, I feel sorry for you.

    The UK’s interests are in a liberal, multi-lateral world order. Our retreat weakens that, and at a time when liberal values are in retreat around the world.
  • not_on_firenot_on_fire Posts: 2,481
    Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    The Mail will be making a commercial decision. The editorial line will evolve rather than swing violently. For that reason I would look at Leave-backing candidates.

    I expect Paul Dacre will have already sanctioned the choice.

    Greig from Mail on Sunday would be a likely choice. It has always been Brexit sceptic.

    How poor Dacre's front pages cheeleading Weak and Wobbly look now.
    I don’t think the Mail is looking to please you with its choice of editor.

    It will choose someone who doesn’t offend its readership base, not the opposite.
    Sure. I do not read it, though its medical coverage is not bad at all.

    Grieg is already there in the organisation though, and trusted with the editorship of the MoS. He is amongst the most likely replacements and will strike a different tone if he does.

    I doubt the Daily Mail Song will be much less valid under any new editor...


  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 17,781

    malcolmg said:

    Interesting article about US foreign policy in Europe:

    https://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2018/06/trump-is-choosing-eastern-europe/562130/

    “Rhetorically, the Trump administration supports Brexit. In practice, it has pursued a predatory policy in response to Brexit, designed to exploit the government’s need for new trading arrangements. Essentially, the Trump administration is using Britain’s need to join the World Trade Organization as an individual state to force it to accept painful concessions in a number of trade and services sectors, exploiting the fact that it has less leverage outside the EU. Meanwhile, in bilateral trade talks, the Trump administration is pushing Britain to accept the U.S. regulatory framework, or at least opt out of the EU single market and customs union. This will benefit U.S. economic interests in the short term, but make it much tougher for London to reach an agreement with the rest of the EU.

    The Trump administration, then, is treating Britain as an easy mark, not as a vital strategic ally.”

    Wow. I am *really* surprised.

    (Sarcasm mode off)
    Who would ever have imagined given that "Special Relationship".
    Striking too, reading memoirs of Obama’s National Security Advisor, how much Britain has withdrawn from the world, post Brexit.

    So far, Brexit has made us poorer, led to the most chaotic government in living memory, and made us weaker - in Europe, with key allies, and around the world.

    Incredibly hard to think of a precedent. Suez perhaps most appropriate - a geopolitical shock causiing a run on sterling, capitulation to the US, and recourse to IMF funding. But in the longer term, the lesson from Suez was that U.K. could not ignore...Europe. What will Brexit’s lesson be?
    If this means fewer of our young people will come back in body bags from fighting someone else's wars then good.
    If you see geopolitical influence as to be measured in bodybags, I feel sorry for you.

    The UK’s interests are in a liberal, multi-lateral world order. Our retreat weakens that, and at a time when liberal values are in retreat around the world.
    leave the 1950s behind, increasingly we, and the whole of Europe are less relevant,

    the touchy feely liberal values died circa 2008 when the people pushing them fked up the worlds economy and when voters tired of spin and being lied to

    today no-one is pushing your values they are all only trying to salvage what they can.
  • TykejohnnoTykejohnno Posts: 7,250
    Foxy said:

    rcs1000 said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Peter Stringfellow has died.

    RIP.

    He recently quit the Conservative Party, because he felt they were too ideologically committed to Brexit.

    Coincidence?
    I thought it was supposed to be the Brexiteers who were all popping off.....?
    They're the ones dying of natural causes.

    But that Peter Stringfellow looked pretty healthy last time I saw him.
    Sky reporting he was diagnosed with cancer 12 months ago and kept it secret and hoped it was not too serious
    He had lung cancer once before, apparently.

    Always a bit sleazy, but good at his job it seems. Much like Dacre.
    For a doctor,you do seem to have a nasty side.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 68,878
    edited June 7
    The wife of the Chief of Staff to David Davis tweets



    Just watch that idiot quit just to make me look like a prat after I said don't take the 10/1 on him as next out of the cabinet.
  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 17,781

    The wife of the Chief of Staff to David Davis tweets



    Just watch that idiot quit just to make me look like an idiot after I said don't take the 10/1 on him as next out of the cabinet.

    he reads this blog and is doing it deliberately
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 21,454

    you have to laugh malc

    all these we want to strut the world types haven't got their heads round Europe as whole is destined to be a back water the future is in Africa and Asia and they will push their own values and tell westerners to piss off.

    in 1950 Europeans were about 20% of world population by 2050 they'll be about 5% and falling

    So we're going to be a backwater off a backwater.

    Lovely. You have such ambitions for our country ... ;)
  • GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 2,799

    malcolmg said:

    Interesting article about US foreign policy in Europe:

    https://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2018/06/trump-is-choosing-eastern-europe/562130/

    “Rhetorically, the Trump administration supports Brexit. In practice, it has pursued a predatory policy in response to Brexit, designed to exploit the government’s need for new trading arrangements. Essentially, the Trump administration is using Britain’s need to join the World Trade Organization as an individual state to force it to accept painful concessions in a number of trade and services sectors, exploiting the fact that it has less leverage outside the EU. Meanwhile, in bilateral trade talks, the Trump administration is pushing Britain to accept the U.S. regulatory framework, or at least opt out of the EU single market and customs union. This will benefit U.S. economic interests in the short term, but make it much tougher for London to reach an agreement with the rest of the EU.

    The Trump administration, then, is treating Britain as an easy mark, not as a vital strategic ally.”

    Wow. I am *really* surprised.

    (Sarcasm mode off)
    Who would ever have imagined given that "Special Relationship".
    Striking too, reading memoirs of Obama’s National Security Advisor, how much Britain has withdrawn from the world, post Brexit.

    So far, Brexit has made us poorer, led to the most chaotic government in living memory, and made us weaker - in Europe, with key allies, and around the world.

    Incredibly hard to think of a precedent. Suez perhaps most appropriate - a geopolitical shock causiing a run on sterling, capitulation to the US, and recourse to IMF funding. But in the longer term, the lesson from Suez was that U.K. could not ignore...Europe. What will Brexit’s lesson be?
    If this means fewer of our young people will come back in body bags from fighting someone else's wars then good.
    If you see geopolitical influence as to be measured in bodybags, I feel sorry for you.

    The UK’s interests are in a liberal, multi-lateral world order. Our retreat weakens that, and at a time when liberal values are in retreat around the world.
    leave the 1950s behind, increasingly we, and the whole of Europe are less relevant,

    the touchy feely liberal values died circa 2008 when the people pushing them fked up the worlds economy and when voters tired of spin and being lied to

    today no-one is pushing your values they are all only trying to salvage what they can.
    Not an attractive prospectus.
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 15,540

    How to get the hard Brexit you want, while pretending not to:
    1. Abstain on a vote for the UK to stay in the EEA, so ensuring that it is not passed.
    2. Table your own motion about creating a hybrid, undefined single market that you know no Tory will back & so will fall.
    Bingo!!

    Yes, it does seem like that doesn't it. Corbyn, hard Brexit's best friend.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 68,878

    The wife of the Chief of Staff to David Davis tweets



    Just watch that idiot quit just to make me look like an idiot after I said don't take the 10/1 on him as next out of the cabinet.

    he reads this blog and is doing it deliberately
    David Davis doesn't like me, things went downhill even further when I said he was as useful as a marzipan dildo.
  • MortimerMortimer Posts: 10,563

    The wife of the Chief of Staff to David Davis tweets



    Just watch that idiot quit just to make me look like an idiot after I said don't take the 10/1 on him as next out of the cabinet.

    he reads this blog and is doing it deliberately
    Do we think May survives losing a Brexit SoS...?
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 45,981
    edited June 7
    Osborne knows his views are not in tune with most Mail readers hence his tweet last night that he was 'watching Love Island' rather than thinking about the role

    https://mobile.twitter.com/George_Osborne/status/1004455607926231040
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 45,981
    RIP Peter Stringfellow, a great entrepreneur and strong Tory
  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 17,781

    you have to laugh malc

    all these we want to strut the world types haven't got their heads round Europe as whole is destined to be a back water the future is in Africa and Asia and they will push their own values and tell westerners to piss off.

    in 1950 Europeans were about 20% of world population by 2050 they'll be about 5% and falling

    So we're going to be a backwater off a backwater.

    Lovely. You have such ambitions for our country ... ;)
    uk citizens being as rich as the swiss is ok in my book
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 21,454

    you have to laugh malc

    all these we want to strut the world types haven't got their heads round Europe as whole is destined to be a back water the future is in Africa and Asia and they will push their own values and tell westerners to piss off.

    in 1950 Europeans were about 20% of world population by 2050 they'll be about 5% and falling

    So we're going to be a backwater off a backwater.

    Lovely. You have such ambitions for our country ... ;)
    uk citizens being as rich as the swiss is ok in my book
    And how would you get from here to there?
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 45,981

    malcolmg said:

    malcolmg said:

    Interesting article about US foreign policy in Europe:

    https://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2018/06/trump-is-choosing-eastern-europe/562130/

    “Rhetorically, the Trump administration supports Brexit. In ach an agreement with the rest of the EU.

    The Trump administration, then, is treating Britain as an easy mark, not as a vital strategic ally.”

    Wow. I am *really* surprised.

    (Sarcasm mode off)
    Who would ever have imagined given that "Special Relationship".
    Striking too, reading memoirs of Obama’s National Security Advisor, how much Britain has withdrawn from the world, post Brexit.

    So far, Brexit has made us poorer, led to the most chaotic government in living memory, and made us weaker - in Europe, with key allies, and around the world.

    Incredibly hard to think of a precedent. Suez perhaps most appropriate - a geopolitical shock causiing a run on sterling, capitulation to the US, and recourse to IMF funding. But in the longer term, the lesson from Suez was that U.K. could not ignore...Europe. What will Brexit’s lesson be?
    If this means fewer of our young people will come back in body bags from fighting someone else's wars then good.
    Morning Alan, Given we are nearly down to only Admirals and Generals nowadays and fact that they are far too busy sampling the wine cellar , we should not be involved in too many adventures in the future.
    you have to laugh malc

    all these we want to strut the world types haven't got their heads round Europe as whole is destined to be a back water the future is in Africa and Asia and they will push their own values and tell westerners to piss off.

    in 1950 Europeans were about 20% of world population by 2050 they'll be about 5% and falling
    By 2050 Africa will be almost as populous as Asia, does that mean the future of the world economy lies in Africa? No. On GDP per capita terms most European nations will remain far ahead of the global average even if only Germany is certain to be in the top 10 largest economies in the world by then. Nigeria though may be the first African nation to enter the global top 10
  • DecrepitJohnLDecrepitJohnL Posts: 9,287
    HYUFD said:

    Osborne knows his views are not in tune with most Mail readers hence his tweet last night that he was 'watching Love Island' rather than thinking about the role

    https://mobile.twitter.com/George_Osborne/status/1004455607926231040

    MRDA.

  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 45,981

    malcolmg said:

    Interesting article about US foreign policy in Europe:

    https://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2018/06/trump-is-choosing-eastern-europe/562130/

    “Rhetorically, the Trump administration supports Brexit. In practice, it has pursued a predatory policy in response to Brexit, designed to exploit the government’s need for new trading arrangements. Essentially, the Trump administration is using Britain’s need to join the World Trade Organization as an individual state to force it to accept painful concessions in a number of trade and services sectors, exploiting the fact that it has less leverage outside the EU. Meanwhile, in bilateral trade talks, the Trump administration is pushing Britain to accept the U.S. regulatory framework, or at least opt out of the EU single market and customs union. This will benefit U.S. economic interests in the short term, but make it much tougher for London to reach an agreement with the rest of the EU.

    The Trump administration, then, is treating Britain as an easy mark, not as a vital strategic ally.”

    Wow. I am *really* surprised.

    (Sarcasm mode off)
    Who would ever have imagined given that "Special Relationship".
    Striking too, reading memoirs of Obama’s National Security Advisor, how much Britain has withdrawn from the world, post Brexit.

    So far, Brexit has made us poorer, led to the most chaotic government in living memory, and made us weaker - in Europe, with key allies, and around the world.

    Incredibly hard to think of a precedent. Suez perhaps most appropriate - a geopolitical shock causiing a run on sterling, capitulation to the US, and recourse to IMF funding. But in the longer term, the lesson from Suez was that U.K. could not ignore...Europe. What will Brexit’s lesson be?
    POTUS backed Brexit even before the UK voted for it and China and India have both said they will do trade deals with post Brexit UK while Boris was recently in Latin America drumming up business, May also led the world in standing up to Putin after the Skirpal poisonings
  • Dura_AceDura_Ace Posts: 2,176
    They aren't certified for deck landings and won't be until the end of the year. That can only be done by the "orange wired" instrumented aircraft (BK0-3) which are in the US and staying there with the OEU at Edwards.
  • tysontyson Posts: 4,445
    HYUFD said:

    RIP Peter Stringfellow, a great entrepreneur and strong Tory


    Also, a horrible slimeball that paved the way for the mainstreaming of divey, exploitative sex clubs around our main streets..... his legacy is a terrible one for British cities
  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 17,781

    malcolmg said:

    Interesting article about US foreign policy in Europe:

    https://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2018/06/trump-is-choosing-eastern-europe/562130/

    “Rhetorically, the TrEU.

    The Trump administration, then, is treating Britain as an easy mark, not as a vital strategic ally.”

    Wow. I am *really* surprised.

    (Sarcasm mode off)
    Who would ever have imagined given that "Special Relationship".
    Striking too, reading memoirs of Obama’s National Security Advisor, how much Britain has withdrawn from the world, post Brexit.

    So far, Brexit has made us poorer, led to the could not ignore...Europe. What will Brexit’s lesson be?
    If this means fewer of our young people will come back in body bags from fighting someone else's wars then good.
    If you see geopolitical influence as to be measured in bodybags, I feel sorry for you.

    The UK’s interests are in a liberal, multi-lateral world order. Our retreat weakens that, and at a time when liberal values are in retreat around the world.
    leave the 1950s behind, increasingly we, and the whole of Europe are less relevant,

    the touchy feely liberal values died circa 2008 when the people pushing them fked up the worlds economy and when voters tired of spin and being lied to

    today no-one is pushing your values they are all only trying to salvage what they can.
    Not an attractive prospectus.
    maybe, but that's the reality,

    by 2100 600 million Europeans let alone 70 million brits are not going to tell 4.4 billion Africans how to live their lives.

    The population of Nigeria is forecast to be bigger then the whole of Europe

    China will have more influence that the West as while we were hand wringing about the past, they quietly bought the place up.

    China plus Africa doesn't sound like soft Western values to me
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 45,981
    edited June 7
    tyson said:

    HYUFD said:

    RIP Peter Stringfellow, a great entrepreneur and strong Tory


    Also, a horrible slimeball that paved the way for the mainstreaming of divey, exploitative sex clubs around our main streets..... his legacy is a terrible one for British cities
    Sour grapes.

    He created a lot of jobs and money for the economy.



  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 17,781

    you have to laugh malc

    all these we want to strut the world types haven't got their heads round Europe as whole is destined to be a back water the future is in Africa and Asia and they will push their own values and tell westerners to piss off.

    in 1950 Europeans were about 20% of world population by 2050 they'll be about 5% and falling

    So we're going to be a backwater off a backwater.

    Lovely. You have such ambitions for our country ... ;)
    uk citizens being as rich as the swiss is ok in my book
    And how would you get from here to there?
    that's a thread in itself
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 68,878
    I once met Peter Stringfellow.

    Handed me £300 in Heavenly Money and told me to go enjoy myself.
  • DecrepitJohnLDecrepitJohnL Posts: 9,287

    rcs1000 said:

    Interesting article about US foreign policy in Europe:

    https://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2018/06/trump-is-choosing-eastern-europe/562130/

    “Rhetorically, the Trump administration supports Brexit. In practice, it has pursued a predatory policy in response to Brexit, designed to exploit the government’s need for new trading arrangements. Essentially, the Trump administration is using Britain’s need to join the World Trade Organization as an individual state to force it to accept painful concessions in a number of trade and services sectors, exploiting the fact that it has less leverage outside the EU. Meanwhile, in bilateral trade talks, the Trump administration is pushing Britain to accept the U.S. regulatory framework, or at least opt out of the EU single market and customs union. This will benefit U.S. economic interests in the short term, but make it much tougher for London to reach an agreement with the rest of the EU.

    The Trump administration, then, is treating Britain as an easy mark, not as a vital strategic ally.”

    Ultimately, the US under President Trump is not a fan of rules based organisations. He want a series of bilateral treaties where the US has all the power, and "free trade" is in the gift of the administration depending on the extent to which the line is towed.
    The US even not under Trump will insist on American standards and American tribunals. Things we were supposed to be escaping with Brexit, only worse.
    On the subject of American laws, its new Cloud Act gives America access to all data stored by American computer companies, even if stored overseas. This was introduced in response to Microsoft's refusal to hand over data stored in Dublin. So if your company's or government's data is hosted in the cloud, it would save some time if you could just tweet it directly to The Donald.
  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 17,781
    HYUFD said:

    malcolmg said:

    malcolmg said:

    Interesting article about US foreign policy in Europe:

    https://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2018/06/trump-is-choosing-eastern-europe/562130/

    “Rhetorically, the Trump administration supports Brexit. In ach an agreement with the rest of the EU.

    The Trump administration, then, is treating Britain as an easy mark, not as a vital strategic ally.”

    Wow. I am *really* surprised.

    (Sarcasm mode off)
    Who would ever have imagined given that "Special Relationship".
    Striking too, reading memoirs of Obama’s National Security Advisor, how much Britain has withdrawn from the world, post Brexit.

    So far, Brexit has made us poorer, led to the most chaotic government in living memory, and made us weaker - in Europe, with key allies, and around the world.

    Incredibly hard to think of a precedent. Suez perhaps most appropriate - a geopolitical shock causiing a run on sterling, capitulation to the US, and recourse to IMF funding. But in the longer term, the lesson from Suez was that U.K. could not ignore...Europe. What will Brexit’s lesson be?
    If this means fewer of our young people will come back in body bags from fighting someone else's wars then good.
    Morning Alan, Given we are nearly down to only Admirals and Generals nowadays and fact that they are far too busy sampling the wine cellar , we should not be involved in too many adventures in the future.
    you have to laugh malc

    all these we want to strut the world types haven't got their heads round Europe as whole is destined to be a back water the future is in Africa and Asia and they will push their own values and tell westerners to piss off.

    in 1950 Europeans were about 20% of world population by 2050 they'll be about 5% and falling
    By 2050 Africa will be almost as populous as Asia, does that mean the future of the world economy lies in Africa? No. On GDP per capita terms most European nations will remain far ahead of the global average even if only Germany is certain to be in the top 10 largest economies in the world by then. Nigeria though may be the first African nation to enter the global top 10
    yes wealth counts, but 30 years ago China was just an interesting place, now it's headed for the world top spot. Development can take place at a spectacular pace. Now roll on 80 years, Africa has some of the worlds fastest growing economies, off a low base admittedly, I find it hard to believe there wont be an element of catch up meaning Europe counts for less.
  • TykejohnnoTykejohnno Posts: 7,250
    tyson said:

    HYUFD said:

    RIP Peter Stringfellow, a great entrepreneur and strong Tory


    Also, a horrible slimeball that paved the way for the mainstreaming of divey, exploitative sex clubs around our main streets..... his legacy is a terrible one for British cities
    The man has just died and just imagine if any of his family reading this right now,do you remember when you came on here the day someone close to you died ?

    Have some respect..
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 14,800
    Good call by @Pulpstar - Oborne would fit very well.

    Is there a market anywhere?
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 68,878
    TOPPING said:

    Good call by @Pulpstar - Oborne would fit very well.

    Is there a market anywhere?

    Yes, Ladbrokes have a market up

  • DecrepitJohnLDecrepitJohnL Posts: 9,287
    HYUFD said:

    malcolmg said:

    Interesting article about US foreign policy in Europe:

    https://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2018/06/trump-is-choosing-eastern-europe/562130/

    “Rhetorically, the Trump administration supports Brexit. In practice, it has pursued a predatory policy in response to Brexit, designed to exploit the government’s need for new trading arrangements. Essentially, the Trump administration is using Britain’s need to join the World Trade Organization as an individual state to force it to accept painful concessions in a number of trade and services sectors, exploiting the fact that it has less leverage outside the EU. Meanwhile, in bilateral trade talks, the Trump administration is pushing Britain to accept the U.S. regulatory framework, or at least opt out of the EU single market and customs union. This will benefit U.S. economic interests in the short term, but make it much tougher for London to reach an agreement with the rest of the EU.

    The Trump administration, then, is treating Britain as an easy mark, not as a vital strategic ally.”

    Wow. I am *really* surprised.

    (Sarcasm mode off)
    Who would ever have imagined given that "Special Relationship".
    Striking too, reading memoirs of Obama’s National Security Advisor, how much Britain has withdrawn from the world, post Brexit.

    So far, Brexit has made us poorer, led to the most chaotic government in living memory, and made us weaker - in Europe, with key allies, and around the world.

    Incredibly hard to think of a precedent. Suez perhaps most appropriate - a geopolitical shock causiing a run on sterling, capitulation to the US, and recourse to IMF funding. But in the longer term, the lesson from Suez was that U.K. could not ignore...Europe. What will Brexit’s lesson be?
    POTUS backed Brexit even before the UK voted for it and China and India have both said they will do trade deals with post Brexit UK while Boris was recently in Latin America drumming up business, May also led the world in standing up to Putin after the Skirpal poisonings
    Doing trade deals will not be the problem. Trade deals on reasonable terms will be. Just ask President Trump. We are Brexiting to escape European trade regulations and European court oversight. In what way are American regulations as judged by American tribunals an improvement?
  • GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 2,799

    malcolmg said:

    Interesting article about US foreign policy in Europe:

    https://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2018/06/trump-is-choosing-eastern-europe/562130/

    “Rhetorically, the TrEU.

    The Trump administration, then, is treating Britain as an easy mark, not as a vital strategic ally.”

    Wow. I am *really* surprised.

    (Sarcasm mode off)
    Who would ever have imagined given that "Special Relationship".
    Striking too, reading memoirs of Obama’s National Security Advisor, how much Britain has withdrawn from the world, post Brexit.

    So far, Brexit has made us poorer, led to the could not ignore...Europe. What will Brexit’s lesson be?
    If this means fewer of our young people will come back in body bags from fighting someone else's wars then good.
    If you see geopolitical influence as to be measured in bodybags, I feel sorry for you.

    The UK’s interests are in a liberal, multi-lateral world order. Our retreat weakens that, and at a time when liberal values are in retreat around the world.
    leave the 1950s behind, increasingly we, and the whole of Europe are less relevant,

    the touchy feely liberal values died circa 2008 when the people pushing them fked up the worlds economy and when voters tired of spin and being lied to

    today no-one is pushing your values they are all only trying to salvage what they can.
    Not an attractive prospectus.
    maybe, but that's the reality,

    by 2100 600 million Europeans let alone 70 million brits are not going to tell 4.4 billion Africans how to live their lives.

    The population of Nigeria is forecast to be bigger then the whole of Europe

    China will have more influence that the West as while we were hand wringing about the past, they quietly bought the place up.

    China plus Africa doesn't sound like soft Western values to me
    No one is disputing that.
    But none of this necessitates forfeiting the institutions, the values, and the influence we spent the years since 45 building up.
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 14,951

    yes wealth counts, but 30 years ago China was just an interesting place, now it's headed for the world top spot. Development can take place at a spectacular pace. Now roll on 80 years, Africa has some of the worlds fastest growing economies, off a low base admittedly, I find it hard to believe there wont be an element of catch up meaning Europe counts for less.

    China had a totalitarian government throttling growth then extremely unusually managed to get a totalitarian government encouraging it.

    For Africa to catch up they need to deal with not just failing governments, crippling corruption but also the AIDS pandemic etc
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 20,554

    Are the BBC trolling us with their rather large coverage of the tragic death of Kate Spade? I'd never heard of her - then again, I wouldn't exactly have been her target market. But I've asked several women from various backgrounds yesterday, and none of them had heard of her either.

    I'm awaiting a news organisation to announce the death of a 'celebrity' that they had just invented, and watch all the other media organisations pick it up ...

    Meaningful affordable luxury brand in the US. Like Coach - or like Jaegar used to be over here
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 14,951

    malcolmg said:

    Interesting article about US foreign policy in Europe:

    https://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2018/06/trump-is-choosing-eastern-europe/562130/

    “Rhetorically, the TrEU.

    The Trump administration, then, is treating Britain as an easy mark, not as a vital strategic ally.”

    Wow. I am *really* surprised.

    (Sarcasm mode off)
    Who would ever have imagined given that "Special Relationship".
    Striking too, reading memoirs of Obama’s National Security Advisor, how much Britain has withdrawn from the world, post Brexit.

    So far, Brexit has made us poorer, led to the could not ignore...Europe. What will Brexit’s lesson be?
    If this means fewer of our young people will come back in body bags from fighting someone else's wars then good.
    If you see geopolitical influence as to be measured in bodybags, I feel sorry for you.

    The UK’s interests are in a liberal, multi-lateral world order. Our retreat weakens that, and at a time when liberal values are in retreat around the world.
    leave the 1950s behind, increasingly we, and the whole of Europe are less relevant,

    the touchy feely liberal values died circa 2008 when the people pushing them fked up the worlds economy and when voters tired of spin and being lied to

    today no-one is pushing your values they are all only trying to salvage what they can.
    Not an attractive prospectus.
    maybe, but that's the reality,

    by 2100 600 million Europeans let alone 70 million brits are not going to tell 4.4 billion Africans how to live their lives.

    The population of Nigeria is forecast to be bigger then the whole of Europe

    China will have more influence that the West as while we were hand wringing about the past, they quietly bought the place up.

    China plus Africa doesn't sound like soft Western values to me
    No one is disputing that.
    But none of this necessitates forfeiting the institutions, the values, and the influence we spent the years since 45 building up.
    We are not. We still have Lords as the international home of cricket.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 14,800

    TOPPING said:

    Good call by @Pulpstar - Oborne would fit very well.

    Is there a market anywhere?

    Yes, Ladbrokes have a market up

    Thanks so not quite able to back Oborne, I see.
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 20,554
    malcolmg said:

    Interesting article about US foreign policy in Europe:

    https://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2018/06/trump-is-choosing-eastern-europe/562130/

    “Rhetorically, the Trump administration supports Brexit. In practice, it has pursued a predatory policy in response to Brexit, designed to exploit the government’s need for new trading arrangements. Essentially, the Trump administration is using Britain’s need to join the World Trade Organization as an individual state to force it to accept painful concessions in a number of trade and services sectors, exploiting the fact that it has less leverage outside the EU. Meanwhile, in bilateral trade talks, the Trump administration is pushing Britain to accept the U.S. regulatory framework, or at least opt out of the EU single market and customs union. This will benefit U.S. economic interests in the short term, but make it much tougher for London to reach an agreement with the rest of the EU.

    The Trump administration, then, is treating Britain as an easy mark, not as a vital strategic ally.”

    Wow. I am *really* surprised.

    (Sarcasm mode off)
    Who would ever have imagined given that "Special Relationship".
    I did. As does everyone who understands the Special Relationship
  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 17,781

    malcolmg said:

    Interesting article about US foreign policy in Europe:

    https://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2018/06/trump-is-choosing-eastern-europe/562130/

    “Rhetorically, the TrEU.

    The Trump administration, then, is treating Britain as an easy mark, not as a vital strategic ally.”

    Wow. I am *really* surprised.

    (Sarcasm mode off)
    Who would ever have imagined given that "Special Relationship".
    Striking too, reading memoirs of Obama’s National Security Advisor, how much Britain has withdrawn from the world, post Brexit.

    So far, Brexit has made us poorer, led to the could not ignore...Europe. What will Brexit’s lesson be?
    If this means fewer of our young people will come back in body bags from fighting someone else's wars then good.
    If you see geopolitical influence as to be measured in bodybags, I feel sorry for you.

    The UK’s interests are in a liberal, multi-lateral world order. Our retreat weakens that, and at a time when liberal values are in retreat around the world.
    leave the 1950s behind, increasingly we, and t and being lied to

    today no-one is pushing your values they are all only trying to salvage what they can.
    Not an attractive prospectus.
    maybe, but that's the reality,

    by 2100 600 million Europeans let alone 70 million brits are not going to tell 4.4 billion Africans how to live their lives.

    The population of Nigeria is forecast to be bigger then the whole of Europe

    China will have more influence that the West as while we were hand wringing about the past, they quietly bought the place up.

    China plus Africa doesn't sound like soft Western values to me
    No one is disputing that.
    But none of this necessitates forfeiting the institutions, the values, and the influence we spent the years since 45 building up.
    institutions only last if they have weight behind them. Ours have been hollowed out and others are taking their place. Western electorates no longer have faith in their own institutions so why would someone overseas ?
  • RogerRoger Posts: 9,732
    Has there ever been a British national who has done as much damage to this country as Paul Dacre?

    I can't think of one.
This discussion has been closed.