yes wealth counts, but 30 years ago China was just an interesting place, now it's headed for the world top spot. Development can take place at a spectacular pace. Now roll on 80 years, Africa has some of the worlds fastest growing economies, off a low base admittedly, I find it hard to believe there wont be an element of catch up meaning Europe counts for less.
China had a totalitarian government throttling growth then extremely unusually managed to get a totalitarian government encouraging it.
For Africa to catch up they need to deal with not just failing governments, crippling corruption but also the AIDS pandemic etc
you pay your money and take your choice
either Africa catches up which I believe they are capable of doing or they don't in which case the Med becomes packed with people and plantains become a staple of the European diet
RIP Peter Stringfellow, a great entrepreneur and strong Tory
Also, a horrible slimeball that paved the way for the mainstreaming of divey, exploitative sex clubs around our main streets..... his legacy is a terrible one for British cities
The man has just died and just imagine if any of his family reading this right now,do you remember when you came on here the day someone close to you died ?
Have some respect..
Did you say that the day Bin Laden was murdered by the Yanks?
RIP Peter Stringfellow, a great entrepreneur and strong Tory
Also, a horrible slimeball that paved the way for the mainstreaming of divey, exploitative sex clubs around our main streets..... his legacy is a terrible one for British cities
The man has just died and just imagine if any of his family reading this right now,do you remember when you came on here the day someone close to you died ?
Have some respect..
Did you say that the day Bin Laden was murdered by the Yanks?
You're seriously comparing Stringfellow to Bin Laden?
yes wealth counts, but 30 years ago China was just an interesting place, now it's headed for the world top spot. Development can take place at a spectacular pace. Now roll on 80 years, Africa has some of the worlds fastest growing economies, off a low base admittedly, I find it hard to believe there wont be an element of catch up meaning Europe counts for less.
China had a totalitarian government throttling growth then extremely unusually managed to get a totalitarian government encouraging it.
For Africa to catch up they need to deal with not just failing governments, crippling corruption but also the AIDS pandemic etc
you pay your money and take your choice
either Africa catches up which I believe they are capable of doing or they don't in which case the Med becomes packed with people and plantains become a staple of the European diet
either way Europe declines in importance
Yes, I am optomistic about much of Africa in terms of economic and social development. There is much progress going on.
It is in our interest for Africa to build modern economies, or that Mediterranean crossing is going to get busier. You cannot buck the markets.
yes wealth counts, but 30 years ago China was just an interesting place, now it's headed for the world top spot. Development can take place at a spectacular pace. Now roll on 80 years, Africa has some of the worlds fastest growing economies, off a low base admittedly, I find it hard to believe there wont be an element of catch up meaning Europe counts for less.
China had a totalitarian government throttling growth then extremely unusually managed to get a totalitarian government encouraging it.
For Africa to catch up they need to deal with not just failing governments, crippling corruption but also the AIDS pandemic etc
you pay your money and take your choice
either Africa catches up which I believe they are capable of doing or they don't in which case the Med becomes packed with people and plantains become a staple of the European diet
either way Europe declines in importance
Yes, I am optomistic about much of Africa in terms of economic and social development. There is much progress going on.
It is in our interest for Africa to build modern economies, or that Mediterranean crossing is going to get busier. You cannot buck the markets.
the problem is we have pulled out of Africa ( colonial guilt ) and China has filled the void. I cant see that position being easily reversed.
RIP Peter Stringfellow, a great entrepreneur and strong Tory
Also, a horrible slimeball that paved the way for the mainstreaming of divey, exploitative sex clubs around our main streets..... his legacy is a terrible one for British cities
The man has just died and just imagine if any of his family reading this right now,do you remember when you came on here the day someone close to you died ?
Have some respect..
Did you say that the day Bin Laden was murdered by the Yanks?
You're seriously comparing Stringfellow to Bin Laden?
The point is that the latter still had relatives - and was mudered.
Has there ever been a British national who has done as much damage to this country as Paul Dacre?
I can't think of one.
Henry the eighth, king john,Charles 1 ,I could go on.
Stephen Lawrence and the mail - that awful Paul dacre .
Yes, the cultural revolution in policing after Dacre exposed the Stephen Lawrence case is Dacres career moment. On the one hand it led to some overdue overhaul, on the other hand it contributed to the blind eye being turned to grooming gangs, so a mixed legacy.
Stringfellow was sleazy, but seemed to manage to stick to legal age young girls, unlike some of his contemporaries.
“Rhetorically, the Trump administration supports Brexit. In practice, it has pursued a predatory policy in response to Brexit, designed to exploit the government’s need for new trading arrangements. Essentially, the Trump administration is using Britain’s need to join the World Trade Organization as an individual state to force it to accept painful concessions in a number of trade and services sectors, exploiting the fact that it has less leverage outside the EU. Meanwhile, in bilateral trade talks, the Trump administration is pushing Britain to accept the U.S. regulatory framework, or at least opt out of the EU single market and customs union. This will benefit U.S. economic interests in the short term, but make it much tougher for London to reach an agreement with the rest of the EU.
The Trump administration, then, is treating Britain as an easy mark, not as a vital strategic ally.”
Wow. I am *really* surprised.
(Sarcasm mode off)
Who would ever have imagined given that "Special Relationship".
I did. As does everyone who understands the Special Relationship
A small, select group of insightful, connected people I'd imagine. Well done you!
If we are looking for lefty hate icons over the long term then Murdoch deserves a mention as well.
Murdoch, Dacre, Blair and Thatcher. The four horseman, I just can't decide who should be which.
Funnily enough earlier when the conversation was about Dacre being malign my mind went straight to apples and snakes, can't get away from the biblical references!
“Rhetorically, the Trump administration supports Brexit. In ach an agreement with the rest of the EU.
The Trump administration, then, is treating Britain as an easy mark, not as a vital strategic ally.”
Wow. I am *really* surprised.
(Sarcasm mode off)
Who would ever have imagined given that "Special Relationship".
Striking too, reading memoirs of Obama’s National Security Advisor, how much Britain has withdrawn from the world, post Brexit.
So far, Brexit has made us poorer, led to the re...Europe. What will Brexit’s lesson be?
If this means fewer of our young people will come back in body bags from fighting someone else's wars then good.
Morning Alan, Given we are nearly down to only Admirals and Generals nowadays and fact that they are far too busy sampling the wine cellar , we should not be involved in too many adventures in the future.
you have to laugh malc
all these we want to strut the world types haven't got their heads round Europe as whole is destined to be a back water the future is in Africa and Asia and they will push their own values and tell westerners to piss off.
in 1950 Europeans were about 20% of world population by 2050 they'll be about 5% and falling
By 2050 Africa will be almost as populous as Asia, does that mean the future of the world economy lies in Africa? No. On GDP per capita terms most European nations will remain far ahead of the global average even if only Germany is certain to be in the top 10 largest economies in the world by then. Nigeria though may be the first African nation to enter the global top 10
yes wealth counts, but 30 years ago China was just an interesting place, now it's headed for the world top spot. Development can take place at a spectacular pace. Now roll on 80 years, Africa has some of the worlds fastest growing economies, off a low base admittedly, I find it hard to believe there wont be an element of catch up meaning Europe counts for less.
China has a lower birth rate than France and the UK.
Chinese economic growth was inevitable after communism collapsed but is really a reversion to the norm, China and India were the largest world economies until the 17th century
all these we want to strut the world types haven't got their heads round Europe as whole is destined to be a back water the future is in Africa and Asia and they will push their own values and tell westerners to piss off.
in 1950 Europeans were about 20% of world population by 2050 they'll be about 5% and falling
So we're going to be a backwater off a backwater.
Lovely. You have such ambitions for our country ...
uk citizens being as rich as the swiss is ok in my book
And how would you get from here to there?
that's a thread in itself
Perhaps you should write it - it could be interesting.
yes wealth counts, but 30 years ago China was just an interesting place, now it's headed for the world top spot. Development can take place at a spectacular pace. Now roll on 80 years, Africa has some of the worlds fastest growing economies, off a low base admittedly, I find it hard to believe there wont be an element of catch up meaning Europe counts for less.
China had a totalitarian government throttling growth then extremely unusually managed to get a totalitarian government encouraging it.
For Africa to catch up they need to deal with not just failing governments, crippling corruption but also the AIDS pandemic etc
you pay your money and take your choice
either Africa catches up which I believe they are capable of doing or they don't in which case the Med becomes packed with people and plantains become a staple of the European diet
either way Europe declines in importance
Yes, I am optomistic about much of Africa in terms of economic and social development. There is much progress going on.
It is in our interest for Africa to build modern economies, or that Mediterranean crossing is going to get busier. You cannot buck the markets.
the problem is we have pulled out of Africa ( colonial guilt ) and China has filled the void. I cant see that position being easily reversed.
Hold on, I thought you wanted us to retreat behind fortress Britain?
“Rhetorically, the Trump administration supports Brexit. In practice, it has pursued a predatory policy in response to Brexit, designed to exploit the government’s need for new trading arrangements. Essentially, the Trump administration is using Britain’s need to join the World Trade Organization as an individual state to force it to accept painful concessions in a number of trade and services sectors, exploiting the fact that it has less leverage outside the EU. Meanwhile, in bilateral trade talks, the Trump administration is pushing Britain to accept the U.S. regulatory framework, or at least opt out of the EU single market and customs union. This will benefit U.S. economic interests in the short term, but make it much tougher for London to reach an agreement with the rest of the EU.
The Trump administration, then, is treating Britain as an easy mark, not as a vital strategic ally.”
Wow. I am *really* surprised.
(Sarcasm mode off)
Who would ever have imagined given that "Special Relationship".
Striking too, reading memoirs of Obama’s National Security Advisor, how much Britain has withdrawn from the world, post Brexit.
So far, Brexit has made us poorer, led to the most chaotic government in living memory, and made us weaker - in Europe, with key allies, and around the world.
Incredibly hard to think of a precedent. Suez perhaps most appropriate - a geopolitical shock causiing a run on sterling, capitulation to the US, and recourse to IMF funding. But in the longer term, the lesson from Suez was that U.K. could not ignore...Europe. What will Brexit’s lesson be?
POTUS backed Brexit even before the UK voted for it and China and India have both said they will do trade deals with post Brexit UK while Boris was recently in Latin America drumming up business, May also led the world in standing up to Putin after the Skirpal poisonings
Doing trade deals will not be the problem. Trade deals on reasonable terms will be. Just ask President Trump. We are Brexiting to escape European trade regulations and European court oversight. In what way are American regulations as judged by American tribunals an improvement?
No reason we cannot have FTAs with the EU and the USA
Are the BBC trolling us with their rather large coverage of the tragic death of Kate Spade? I'd never heard of her - then again, I wouldn't exactly have been her target market. But I've asked several women from various backgrounds yesterday, and none of them had heard of her either.
I'm awaiting a news organisation to announce the death of a 'celebrity' that they had just invented, and watch all the other media organisations pick it up ...
Meaningful affordable luxury brand in the US. Like Coach - or like Jaegar used to be over here
Thanks. I have to admit I hadn't heard of 'Coach' either.
yes wealth counts, but 30 years ago China was just an interesting place, now it's headed for the world top spot. Development can take place at a spectacular pace. Now roll on 80 years, Africa has some of the worlds fastest growing economies, off a low base admittedly, I find it hard to believe there wont be an element of catch up meaning Europe counts for less.
China had a totalitarian government throttling growth then extremely unusually managed to get a totalitarian government encouraging it.
For Africa to catch up they need to deal with not just failing governments, crippling corruption but also the AIDS pandemic etc
you pay your money and take your choice
either Africa catches up which I believe they are capable of doing or they don't in which case the Med becomes packed with people and plantains become a staple of the European diet
either way Europe declines in importance
Well if Med crossings do escalate then that will boost Europe's population and correspondingly decrease Africa's population.
Isn't Africa's birth rate declining now? While across much of Sub-Saharan Africa life expectancy is too?
The population forecasts could prove to be quite wrong.
Are the BBC trolling us with their rather large coverage of the tragic death of Kate Spade? I'd never heard of her - then again, I wouldn't exactly have been her target market. But I've asked several women from various backgrounds yesterday, and none of them had heard of her either.
I'm awaiting a news organisation to announce the death of a 'celebrity' that they had just invented, and watch all the other media organisations pick it up ...
Meaningful affordable luxury brand in the US. Like Coach - or like Jaegar used to be over here
Thanks. I have to admit I hadn't heard of 'Coach' either.
There’s a large Kate Spade store on Regent’s Street. I noticed it the other day.
I agree with you though, she is a non entity in this country. The BBC needs to stop aping US editorial policy.
Why is Mary Wilson's passing receiving so much less coverage than was given to Denis Thatcher?
He died 13 years after he left Downing Street, she died 42 years after she left Downing Street, so relatively speaking she’s not so relevant to the population.
Has there ever been a British national who has done as much damage to this country as Paul Dacre?
I can't think of one.
Tony Blair.
Surely you jest ? Greatest postwar PM contender I'd have thought.
Although I'm an unrepentant Blairite which is fairly rare these days.
A war criminal who certainly deserves the fate of Bin Laden - including being dumped at sea.
Totally ridiculous. Blair made a bad error of judgement over Iraq, no doubt; it will forever tarnish his reputation. But 1997-2007 under his premiership looks like a golden decade compared with the way the country has gone backwards in the decade since.
PS To answer Roger's point, Dacre is a nasty piece of work but I think his influence is way overstated.
Has there ever been a British national who has done as much damage to this country as Paul Dacre?
I can't think of one.
Tony Blair.
Surely you jest ? Greatest postwar PM contender I'd have thought.
Although I'm an unrepentant Blairite which is fairly rare these days.
A war criminal who certainly deserves the fate of Bin Laden - including being dumped at sea.
Totally ridiculous. Blair made a bad error of judgement over Iraq, no doubt; it will forever tarnish his reputation. But 1997-2007 under his premiership looks like a golden decade compared with the way the country has gone backwards in the decade since.
A bad error of judgement! The kind of errors Adolf Hitler made by invading Poland in September 1939 and the USSR in June 1941?
Are the BBC trolling us with their rather large coverage of the tragic death of Kate Spade? I'd never heard of her - then again, I wouldn't exactly have been her target market. But I've asked several women from various backgrounds yesterday, and none of them had heard of her either.
I'm awaiting a news organisation to announce the death of a 'celebrity' that they had just invented, and watch all the other media organisations pick it up ...
Meaningful affordable luxury brand in the US. Like Coach - or like Jaegar used to be over here
Thanks. I have to admit I hadn't heard of 'Coach' either.
It's like a large bus but tends to do longer journeys.
Has there ever been a British national who has done as much damage to this country as Paul Dacre?
I can't think of one.
Tony Blair.
Surely you jest ? Greatest postwar PM contender I'd have thought.
Although I'm an unrepentant Blairite which is fairly rare these days.
A war criminal who certainly deserves the fate of Bin Laden - including being dumped at sea.
Totally ridiculous. Blair made a bad error of judgement over Iraq, no doubt; it will forever tarnish his reputation. But 1997-2007 under his premiership looks like a golden decade compared with the way the country has gone backwards in the decade since.
A bad error of judgement! The kind of errors Adolf Hitler made by invading Poland in September 1939 and the USSR in June 1941?
yes wealth counts, but 30 years ago China was just an interesting place, now it's headed for the world top spot. Development can take place at a spectacular pace. Now roll on 80 years, Africa has some of the worlds fastest growing economies, off a low base admittedly, I find it hard to believe there wont be an element of catch up meaning Europe counts for less.
China had a totalitarian government throttling growth then extremely unusually managed to get a totalitarian government encouraging it.
For Africa to catch up they need to deal with not just failing governments, crippling corruption but also the AIDS pandemic etc
you pay your money and take your choice
either Africa catches up which I believe they are capable of doing or they don't in which case the Med becomes packed with people and plantains become a staple of the European diet
either way Europe declines in importance
Yes, I am optomistic about much of Africa in terms of economic and social development. There is much progress going on.
It is in our interest for Africa to build modern economies, or that Mediterranean crossing is going to get busier. You cannot buck the markets.
the problem is we have pulled out of Africa ( colonial guilt ) and China has filled the void. I cant see that position being easily reversed.
Hold on, I thought you wanted us to retreat behind fortress Britain?
Be consistent.
I am being consistent, I'm saying Western liberal values have an uphill task we will have a hard exporting them.
Mr. Pointer, Blair had a golden economic inheritance. He buggered it up with PFI, opening the migration floodgates, giving away half the rebate for nothing, and, best of all, Iraq.
That said, May could well go down in history as the worst PM since WWII. The apparent proposition, and we'll see what emerges, that we remain in the customs union/single market, paying for the privilege of being governed (at least in part) by a foreign body we voted to leave is not one that will necessarily endear her to the electorate.
“Rhetorically, the Trump administration supports Brexit. In practice, it has pursued a predatory policy in response to Brexit, designed to exploit the government’s need for new trading arrangements. Essentially, the Trump administration is using Britain’s need to join the World Trade Organization as an individual state to force it to accept painful concessions in a number of trade and services sectors, exploiting the fact that it has less leverage outside the EU. Meanwhile, in bilateral trade talks, the Trump administration is pushing Britain to accept the U.S. regulatory framework, or at least opt out of the EU single market and customs union. This will benefit U.S. economic interests in the short term, but make it much tougher for London to reach an agreement with the rest of the EU.
The Trump administration, then, is treating Britain as an easy mark, not as a vital strategic ally.”
Wow. I am *really* surprised.
(Sarcasm mode off)
Who would ever have imagined given that "Special Relationship".
Striking too, reading memoirs of Obama’s National Security Advisor, how much Britain has withdrawn from the world, post Brexit.
So far, Brexit has made us poorer, led to the most chaotic government in living memory, and made us weaker - in Europe, with key allies, and around the world.
Incredibly hard to think of a precedent. Suez perhaps most appropriate - a geopolitical shock causiing a run on sterling, capitulation to the US, and recourse to IMF funding. But in the longer term, the lesson from Suez was that U.K. could not ignore...Europe. What will Brexit’s lesson be?
POTUS backed Brexit even before the UK voted for it and China and India have both said they will do trade deals with post Brexit UK while Boris was recently in Latin America drumming up business, May also led the world in standing up to Putin after the Skirpal poisonings
Doing trade deals will not be the problem. Trade deals on reasonable terms will be. Just ask President Trump. We are Brexiting to escape European trade regulations and European court oversight. In what way are American regulations as judged by American tribunals an improvement?
No reason we cannot have FTAs with the EU and the USA
Has there ever been a British national who has done as much damage to this country as Paul Dacre?
I can't think of one.
Tony Blair.
Surely you jest ? Greatest postwar PM contender I'd have thought.
Although I'm an unrepentant Blairite which is fairly rare these days.
A war criminal who certainly deserves the fate of Bin Laden - including being dumped at sea.
Totally ridiculous. Blair made a bad error of judgement over Iraq, no doubt; it will forever tarnish his reputation. But 1997-2007 under his premiership looks like a golden decade compared with the way the country has gone backwards in the decade since.
(Snip)
This sort of conversation becomes difficult because personal political views intervene, and so it is perhaps best to try and view it as a historian would in a few decades' time.
Personally, I feel the coalition will be viewed very favourably, given the circumstances it had to operate under. It was far from perfect, but adults generally acted like adults.
Blair's government was seen very favourably at the time, and is now judged much more harshly. It is distinctly possible that the judgement will become harsher. They had a massive opportunity and mostly squandered it.
Has there ever been a British national who has done as much damage to this country as Paul Dacre?
I can't think of one.
Tony Blair.
Surely you jest ? Greatest postwar PM contender I'd have thought.
Although I'm an unrepentant Blairite which is fairly rare these days.
A war criminal who certainly deserves the fate of Bin Laden - including being dumped at sea.
Totally ridiculous. Blair made a bad error of judgement over Iraq, no doubt; it will forever tarnish his reputation. But 1997-2007 under his premiership looks like a golden decade compared with the way the country has gone backwards in the decade since.
PS To answer Roger's point, Dacre is a nasty piece of work but I think his influence is way overstated.
A Golden Decade??? Massive overspending, complete media manipulation, the creation of a whole generation reliant on the ludirous benefit system. We are still paying for this Golden decade 11 years later.
Has there ever been a British national who has done as much damage to this country as Paul Dacre?
I can't think of one.
Tony Blair.
Surely you jest ? Greatest postwar PM contender I'd have thought.
Although I'm an unrepentant Blairite which is fairly rare these days.
A war criminal who certainly deserves the fate of Bin Laden - including being dumped at sea.
Totally ridiculous. Blair made a bad error of judgement over Iraq, no doubt; it will forever tarnish his reputation. But 1997-2007 under his premiership looks like a golden decade compared with the way the country has gone backwards in the decade since.
(Snip)
This sort of conversation becomes difficult because personal political views intervene, and so it is perhaps best to try and view it as a historian would in a few decades' time.
Personally, I feel the coalition will be viewed very favourably, given the circumstances it had to operate under. It was far from perfect, but adults generally acted like adults.
Blair's government was seen very favourably at the time, and is now judged much more harshly. It is distinctly possible that the judgement will become harsher. They had a massive opportunity and mostly squandered it.
Agree with your first sentence. The rest, not so much.
yes wealth counts, but 30 years ago China was just an interesting place, now it's headed for the world top spot. Development can take place at a spectacular pace. Now roll on 80 years, Africa has some of the worlds fastest growing economies, off a low base admittedly, I find it hard to believe there wont be an element of catch up meaning Europe counts for less.
China had a totalitarian government throttling growth then extremely unusually managed to get a totalitarian government encouraging it.
For Africa to catch up they need to deal with not just failing governments, crippling corruption but also the AIDS pandemic etc
you pay your money and take your choice
either Africa catches up which I believe they are capable of doing or they don't in which case the Med becomes packed with people and plantains become a staple of the European diet
either way Europe declines in importance
Well if Med crossings do escalate then that will boost Europe's population and correspondingly decrease Africa's population.
Isn't Africa's birth rate declining now? While across much of Sub-Saharan Africa life expectancy is too?
The population forecasts could prove to be quite wrong.
the world passed peak baby last year
though I don't think that yet applies to Africa
as for the population transfer yes it could mean a growth in Europe, but a large transfer of population wont necessarily adopt Western values or will force Western values to change.
yes wealth counts, but 30 years ago China was just an interesting place, now it's headed for the world top spot. Development can take place at a spectacular pace. Now roll on 80 years, Africa has some of the worlds fastest growing economies, off a low base admittedly, I find it hard to believe there wont be an element of catch up meaning Europe counts for less.
China had a totalitarian government throttling growth then extremely unusually managed to get a totalitarian government encouraging it.
For Africa to catch up they need to deal with not just failing governments, crippling corruption but also the AIDS pandemic etc
you pay your money and take your choice
either Africa catches up which I believe they are capable of doing or they don't in which case the Med becomes packed with people and plantains become a staple of the European diet
either way Europe declines in importance
Well if Med crossings do escalate then that will boost Europe's population and correspondingly decrease Africa's population.
Isn't Africa's birth rate declining now? While across much of Sub-Saharan Africa life expectancy is too?
The population forecasts could prove to be quite wrong.
Pretty accurate so far! Fertility rate is declining, but still higher than other continents and life expectancy improving considerably due to decline in infant mortality. Most population growth is locked in already for these reasons.
Mr. Pointer, Blair had a golden economic inheritance. He buggered it up with PFI, opening the migration floodgates, giving away half the rebate for nothing, and, best of all, Iraq.
That said, May could well go down in history as the worst PM since WWII. The apparent proposition, and we'll see what emerges, that we remain in the customs union/single market, paying for the privilege of being governed (at least in part) by a foreign body we voted to leave is not one that will necessarily endear her to the electorate.
If the economy that Blair inherited was so great, why did the Tories lose in 1997?
OT. I went to a wedding reception last night and sat next to one of the Deputies from the Board of Deputies representing one of the synagogues in Barnet.
I quite liked him even though he thought the death penalty was a good thing pointing out the folly of arguing against on the basis that mistakes are made. 'Mistakes are always made'
Corbyn was definitely an anti-semite because when invited to do so he couldn't think of anything nice to say about Israel......and then we moved onto Brexit.
For reasons of business he was a very strong Remainer. He then waved his arm towards this large hall of bearded men wearing identical black suits and hats (the women were elsewhere) and said 'but nearly all of this lot voted 'Leave'. 'They don't like immigrants'
yes wealth counts, but 30 years ago China was just an interesting place, now it's headed for the world top spot. Development can take place at a spectacular pace. Now roll on 80 years, Africa has some of the worlds fastest growing economies, off a low base admittedly, I find it hard to believe there wont be an element of catch up meaning Europe counts for less.
China had a totalitarian government throttling growth then extremely unusually managed to get a totalitarian government encouraging it.
For Africa to catch up they need to deal with not just failing governments, crippling corruption but also the AIDS pandemic etc
you pay your money and take your choice
either Africa catches up which I believe they are capable of doing or they don't in which case the Med becomes packed with people and plantains become a staple of the European diet
either way Europe declines in importance
Well if Med crossings do escalate then that will boost Europe's population and correspondingly decrease Africa's population.
Isn't Africa's birth rate declining now? While across much of Sub-Saharan Africa life expectancy is too?
The population forecasts could prove to be quite wrong.
the world passed peak baby last year
though I don't think that yet applies to Africa
as for the population transfer yes it could mean a growth in Europe, but a large transfer of population wont necessarily adopt Western values or will force Western values to change.
Perhaps Jacob Rees Mogg will eventually be a centrist on social issues then
yes wealth counts, but 30 years ago China was just an interesting place, now it's headed for the world top spot. Development can take place at a spectacular pace. Now roll on 80 years, Africa has some of the worlds fastest growing economies, off a low base admittedly, I find it hard to believe there wont be an element of catch up meaning Europe counts for less.
China had a totalitarian government throttling growth then extremely unusually managed to get a totalitarian government encouraging it.
For Africa to catch up they need to deal with not just failing governments, crippling corruption but also the AIDS pandemic etc
you pay your money and take your choice
either Africa catches up which I believe they are capable of doing or they don't in which case the Med becomes packed with people and plantains become a staple of the European diet
either way Europe declines in importance
Well if Med crossings do escalate then that will boost Europe's population and correspondingly decrease Africa's population.
Isn't Africa's birth rate declining now? While across much of Sub-Saharan Africa life expectancy is too?
The population forecasts could prove to be quite wrong.
the world passed peak baby last year
though I don't think that yet applies to Africa
as for the population transfer yes it could mean a growth in Europe, but a large transfer of population wont necessarily adopt Western values or will force Western values to change.
Perhaps Jacob Rees Mogg will eventually be a centrist on social issues then
lol very likely
I think the first African Archbishop of Canterbury will be a real shock to the system.
Mr. Pointer, Blair had a golden economic inheritance. He buggered it up with PFI, opening the migration floodgates, giving away half the rebate for nothing, and, best of all, Iraq.
That said, May could well go down in history as the worst PM since WWII. The apparent proposition, and we'll see what emerges, that we remain in the customs union/single market, paying for the privilege of being governed (at least in part) by a foreign body we voted to leave is not one that will necessarily endear her to the electorate.
If the economy that Blair inherited was so great, why did the Tories lose in 1997?
Because their reputation for economic competence had been destroyed by Black Friday, and the previous recession was still firmly in voters' memory. They'd turned the ship around, but few cared.
Then there was the sleaze, the in-fighting over the EU, and, most of all, the fact that they had lost direction and were out of ideas. Blair and Labour appeared new and fresh.
Mr. Pointer, Blair had a golden economic inheritance. He buggered it up with PFI, opening the migration floodgates, giving away half the rebate for nothing, and, best of all, Iraq.
That said, May could well go down in history as the worst PM since WWII. The apparent proposition, and we'll see what emerges, that we remain in the customs union/single market, paying for the privilege of being governed (at least in part) by a foreign body we voted to leave is not one that will necessarily endear her to the electorate.
If the economy that Blair inherited was so great, why did the Tories lose in 1997?
The early years of Blair were fiscally dry for a Labour Gov't. And the Tories were up to their necks in sleaze - they even managed to lose !Tatton! in 97. More social issues and the fact that people simply tire of a Gov't after 19 years of power.
Mr. Pointer, because the economy isn't everything and the Conservatives had been in power for nearly two decades.
Not to mention, people vote Labour when they feel times are good enough to splurge cash. They vote Conservative when they feel either Labour's economic mess needs clearing up or they (the reds) would bugger things again.
The blues should've tossed the ditherer overboard after she was surprised by her own ambush.
Edited extra bit: easy to say with hindsight, of course. The logic of letting her remain (ahem) to take the EU bullet made sense. Except that it underestimated how rubbish she is.
Has there ever been a British national who has done as much damage to this country as Paul Dacre?
I can't think of one.
Tony Blair.
Surely you jest ? Greatest postwar PM contender I'd have thought.
Although I'm an unrepentant Blairite which is fairly rare these days.
A war criminal who certainly deserves the fate of Bin Laden - including being dumped at sea.
Totally ridiculous. Blair made a bad error of judgement over Iraq, no doubt; it will forever tarnish his reputation. But 1997-2007 under his premiership looks like a golden decade compared with the way the country has gone backwards in the decade since.
(Snip)
This sort of conversation becomes difficult because personal political views intervene, and so it is perhaps best to try and view it as a historian would in a few decades' time.
Personally, I feel the coalition will be viewed very favourably, given the circumstances it had to operate under. It was far from perfect, but adults generally acted like adults.
Blair's government was seen very favourably at the time, and is now judged much more harshly. It is distinctly possible that the judgement will become harsher. They had a massive opportunity and mostly squandered it.
Agree with your first sentence. The rest, not so much.
Fairy 'nuff. It is just personal opinion.
However, look at the way the legacy of Blair's government is routinely trashed even by Labour supporters nowadays. 'Blairite' is a term of derision, not one of admiration, amongst Labour supporters. That situation will have to be reversed if Blair's ten years are to be seen as a golden period, and I cannot see that happening for a long while.
Mr. Pointer, Blair had a golden economic inheritance. He buggered it up with PFI, opening the migration floodgates, giving away half the rebate for nothing, and, best of all, Iraq.
That said, May could well go down in history as the worst PM since WWII. The apparent proposition, and we'll see what emerges, that we remain in the customs union/single market, paying for the privilege of being governed (at least in part) by a foreign body we voted to leave is not one that will necessarily endear her to the electorate.
If the economy that Blair inherited was so great, why did the Tories lose in 1997?
Because their reputation for economic competence had been destroyed by Black Friday, and the previous recession was still firmly in voters' memory. They'd turned the ship around, but few cared.
Then there was the sleaze, the in-fighting over the EU, and, most of all, the fact that they had lost direction and were out of ideas. Blair and Labour appeared new and fresh.
Also, easy to forget now, the country was run down.
Public services and public spaces felt almost East European when I arrived in the U.K. at the beginning of the New Labour era.
yes wealth counts, but 30 years ago China was just an interesting place, now it's headed for the world top spot. Development can take place at a spectacular pace. Now roll on 80 years, Africa has some of the worlds fastest growing economies, off a low base admittedly, I find it hard to believe there wont be an element of catch up meaning Europe counts for less.
China had a totalitarian government throttling growth then extremely unusually managed to get a totalitarian government encouraging it.
For Africa to catch up they need to deal with not just failing governments, crippling corruption but also the AIDS pandemic etc
you pay your money and take your choice
either Africa catches up which I believe they are capable of doing or they don't in which case the Med becomes packed with people and plantains become a staple of the European diet
either way Europe declines in importance
Well if Med crossings do escalate then that will boost Europe's population and correspondingly decrease Africa's population.
Isn't Africa's birth rate declining now? While across much of Sub-Saharan Africa life expectancy is too?
The population forecasts could prove to be quite wrong.
the world passed peak baby last year
though I don't think that yet applies to Africa
as for the population transfer yes it could mean a growth in Europe, but a large transfer of population wont necessarily adopt Western values or will force Western values to change.
Perhaps Jacob Rees Mogg will eventually be a centrist on social issues then
lol very likely
I think the first African Archbishop of Canterbury will be a real shock to the system.
Mr. Pointer, Blair had a golden economic inheritance. He buggered it up with PFI, opening the migration floodgates, giving away half the rebate for nothing, and, best of all, Iraq.
That said, May could well go down in history as the worst PM since WWII. The apparent proposition, and we'll see what emerges, that we remain in the customs union/single market, paying for the privilege of being governed (at least in part) by a foreign body we voted to leave is not one that will necessarily endear her to the electorate.
If the economy that Blair inherited was so great, why did the Tories lose in 1997?
Because their reputation for economic competence had been destroyed by Black Friday, and the previous recession was still firmly in voters' memory. They'd turned the ship around, but few cared.
Then there was the sleaze, the in-fighting over the EU, and, most of all, the fact that they had lost direction and were out of ideas. Blair and Labour appeared new and fresh.
Also, easy to forget now, the country was run down.
Public services and public spaces felt almost East European when I arrived in the U.K. at the beginning of the New Labour era.
"The court dismissed an appeal brought by the Northern Ireland Human Rights Commission (NIHRC).
But a majority of the judges said that the existing law was incompatible with human rights legislation in cases of fatal foetal abnormality and sexual crime."
Mr. Pointer, Blair had a golden economic inheritance. He buggered it up with PFI, opening the migration floodgates, giving away half the rebate for nothing, and, best of all, Iraq.
That said, May could well go down in history as the worst PM since WWII. The apparent proposition, and we'll see what emerges, that we remain in the customs union/single market, paying for the privilege of being governed (at least in part) by a foreign body we voted to leave is not one that will necessarily endear her to the electorate.
If the economy that Blair inherited was so great, why did the Tories lose in 1997?
Because their reputation for economic competence had been destroyed by Black Friday, and the previous recession was still firmly in voters' memory. They'd turned the ship around, but few cared.
Then there was the sleaze, the in-fighting over the EU, and, most of all, the fact that they had lost direction and were out of ideas. Blair and Labour appeared new and fresh.
Also, easy to forget now, the country was run down.
Public services and public spaces felt almost East European when I arrived in the U.K. at the beginning of the New Labour era.
outside of London they still are
This is true. Except that Eastern Europe is now catching up and in some cases surpassing the British regions.
Actually, I’ve often dwelt on this topic on here, even though you think Remainers don’t care and are somehow to blame.
Comments
either Africa catches up which I believe they are capable of doing or they don't in which case the Med becomes packed with people and plantains become a staple of the European diet
either way Europe declines in importance
(You heard it here first.)
It is in our interest for Africa to build modern economies, or that Mediterranean crossing is going to get busier. You cannot buck the markets.
Stephen Lawrence and the mail - that awful Paul dacre .
Although I'm an unrepentant Blairite which is fairly rare these days.
The Chilcot report was very damning.
Blair was the European leader responsible for the most Muslim deaths since Coeur de Lion.
Stringfellow was sleazy, but seemed to manage to stick to legal age young girls, unlike some of his contemporaries.
Well done you!
Murdoch, Dacre, Blair and Thatcher. The four horseman, I just can't decide who should be which.
Funnily enough earlier when the conversation was about Dacre being malign my mind went straight to apples and snakes, can't get away from the biblical references!
Chinese economic growth was inevitable after communism collapsed but is really a reversion to the norm, China and India were the largest world economies until the 17th century
Be consistent.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-44394948
Isn't Africa's birth rate declining now? While across much of Sub-Saharan Africa life expectancy is too?
The population forecasts could prove to be quite wrong.
I agree with you though, she is a non entity in this country. The BBC needs to stop aping US editorial policy.
PS To answer Roger's point, Dacre is a nasty piece of work but I think his influence is way overstated.
A PM from the Lords.
David Cameron your country needs you again.
That said, May could well go down in history as the worst PM since WWII. The apparent proposition, and we'll see what emerges, that we remain in the customs union/single market, paying for the privilege of being governed (at least in part) by a foreign body we voted to leave is not one that will necessarily endear her to the electorate.
Personally, I feel the coalition will be viewed very favourably, given the circumstances it had to operate under. It was far from perfect, but adults generally acted like adults.
Blair's government was seen very favourably at the time, and is now judged much more harshly. It is distinctly possible that the judgement will become harsher. They had a massive opportunity and mostly squandered it.
Edit: a caretaker government under Sir John Major would be the best bet.
What is the collective noun for a unicorn by the way?
though I don't think that yet applies to Africa
as for the population transfer yes it could mean a growth in Europe, but a large transfer of population wont necessarily adopt Western values or will force Western values to change.
If the economy that Blair inherited was so great, why did the Tories lose in 1997?
I quite liked him even though he thought the death penalty was a good thing pointing out the folly of arguing against on the basis that mistakes are made. 'Mistakes are always made'
Corbyn was definitely an anti-semite because when invited to do so he couldn't think of anything nice to say about Israel......and then we moved onto Brexit.
For reasons of business he was a very strong Remainer. He then waved his arm towards this large hall of bearded men wearing identical black suits and hats (the women were elsewhere) and said 'but nearly all of this lot voted 'Leave'. 'They don't like immigrants'
He wont resign.
But if he does. Could be the blue touch paper on May being lit...
https://twitter.com/BethRigby/status/1004644813839446017
Where is DD?
I think the first African Archbishop of Canterbury will be a real shock to the system.
He'll believe in God for a start off !
Then there was the sleaze, the in-fighting over the EU, and, most of all, the fact that they had lost direction and were out of ideas. Blair and Labour appeared new and fresh.
More social issues and the fact that people simply tire of a Gov't after 19 years of power.
Not to mention, people vote Labour when they feel times are good enough to splurge cash. They vote Conservative when they feel either Labour's economic mess needs clearing up or they (the reds) would bugger things again.
The blues should've tossed the ditherer overboard after she was surprised by her own ambush.
Edited extra bit: easy to say with hindsight, of course. The logic of letting her remain (ahem) to take the EU bullet made sense. Except that it underestimated how rubbish she is.
However, look at the way the legacy of Blair's government is routinely trashed even by Labour supporters nowadays. 'Blairite' is a term of derision, not one of admiration, amongst Labour supporters. That situation will have to be reversed if Blair's ten years are to be seen as a golden period, and I cannot see that happening for a long while.
https://twitter.com/michaelpdeacon/status/941073764934184961?s=21
Public services and public spaces felt almost East European when I arrived in the U.K. at the beginning of the New Labour era.
German exporters getting twitchy - Trump. Brexit, trade wars
http://www.faz.net/aktuell/wirtschaft/industrieauftraege-fallen-den-vierten-monat-in-folge-15627464.html
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-44395150
"The court dismissed an appeal brought by the Northern Ireland Human Rights Commission (NIHRC).
But a majority of the judges said that the existing law was incompatible with human rights legislation in cases of fatal foetal abnormality and sexual crime."
Actually, I’ve often dwelt on this topic on here, even though you think Remainers don’t care and are somehow to blame.