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    MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 37,607
    Very, very poor economic data coming out of Germany at the moment. There is a non-negligible chance that the Eurozone falls into a recession later this year which would probably drag the UK down with it.
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    MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 37,607
    Would you like a side of fudge with that?
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    Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453

    Hmm. Breaking, but this seems a bit contradictory:
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-44395150

    "The court dismissed an appeal brought by the Northern Ireland Human Rights Commission (NIHRC).

    But a majority of the judges said that the existing law was incompatible with human rights legislation in cases of fatal foetal abnormality and sexual crime."

    These particular defendants were not "competent" to bring the case, but a single woman would probably win
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    NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 21,336

    Hmm. Breaking, but this seems a bit contradictory:
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-44395150

    "The court dismissed an appeal brought by the Northern Ireland Human Rights Commission (NIHRC).

    But a majority of the judges said that the existing law was incompatible with human rights legislation in cases of fatal foetal abnormality and sexual crime."

    They say the NI legal position IS incompatible with the human rights convention but the NI Human Rights Commission doesn't have standing in the issue since they weren't personally affected. Essentially as I understand it, they are signalling that a woman who WAS personally affected could bring a case against the law and would be likely to win. Pretty strong message to the Government or the non-existent NI executive that they need to change it or sooner or later someone will bring a case that will force their hand.
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    GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 20,847
    David Davis is not going to resign.
    It would leave his career in ignominy.

    However, the alternative must be ghastly for him: The minister-in-name-only for Brexit-in-name-only.
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    swing_voterswing_voter Posts: 1,435

    Scott_P said:
    Jesus. So much has happened in the last ten years. It's like politics has been on speed.
    wait till you see the next 10 years!
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    rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 58,226
    MaxPB said:

    Would you like a side of fudge with that?
    :lol:

    Fudge Ferret. Could catch on in the gastro pubs of south london...
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    TGOHFTGOHF Posts: 21,633
    MaxPB said:

    Very, very poor economic data coming out of Germany at the moment. There is a non-negligible chance that the Eurozone falls into a recession later this year which would probably drag the UK down with it.

    Yet some want us shackled to this lumbering dinosaur of a cartel ?
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    RogerRoger Posts: 18,891

    Roger said:

    Has there ever been a British national who has done as much damage to this country as Paul Dacre?

    I can't think of one.

    Depending on what part of the labour party you are in, many would either answer Thatcher or Blair
    Thatcher would be a strong contender but not everyone would agree. Dacre's malevolence is beyond question.
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    swing_voterswing_voter Posts: 1,435

    Mr. Pointer, Blair had a golden economic inheritance. He buggered it up with PFI, opening the migration floodgates, giving away half the rebate for nothing, and, best of all, Iraq.

    That said, May could well go down in history as the worst PM since WWII. The apparent proposition, and we'll see what emerges, that we remain in the customs union/single market, paying for the privilege of being governed (at least in part) by a foreign body we voted to leave is not one that will necessarily endear her to the electorate.

    If the economy that Blair inherited was so great, why did the Tories lose in 1997?
    Because their reputation for economic competence had been destroyed by Black Friday, and the previous recession was still firmly in voters' memory. They'd turned the ship around, but few cared.

    Then there was the sleaze, the in-fighting over the EU, and, most of all, the fact that they had lost direction and were out of ideas. Blair and Labour appeared new and fresh.
    Also, easy to forget now, the country was run down.

    Public services and public spaces felt almost East European when I arrived in the U.K. at the beginning of the New Labour era.
    outside of London they still are
    at least the trains actually ran.....
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    Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 60,983
    F1: new Mercedes engine to be introduced in France, not Canada as hoped. Reason is a 'quality issue'. I think that's managerial bullshit speak for 'It keeps breaking'.
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    rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 58,226
    In fact, we'll all have to eat ferrets once the port of Dover is effectively closed.

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    Dura_AceDura_Ace Posts: 12,999
    DD is going to do A resignation but not THE resignation. He'll still be in charge of Brexit for the 6 counties.
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    NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 21,336


    However, look at the way the legacy of Blair's government is routinely trashed even by Labour supporters nowadays. 'Blairite' is a term of derision, not one of admiration, amongst Labour supporters. That situation will have to be reversed if Blair's ten years are to be seen as a golden period, and I cannot see that happening for a long while.

    Among *some* Labour supporters - I know plenty who don't see it that way, and IIRC polling is mixed - Blair personally currently gets low ratings, but his period in office is not rated badly.
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    Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 60,983
    Mr. Flashman (deceased), a minority of the electorate want that, but a majority of the media-political class, it seems.
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    NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 21,336
    Didn't know that Stewart Jackson, formerly of this parish, is DD's chief of staff. The Express journalist who is married to him seems well-informed:

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/blog/live/2018/jun/07/former-brexit-minister-says-mays-backstop-plan-extremely-damaging-for-britain-politics-live

    I'd be inclined to bet on his going now - think he can't really stay without looking hopelessly weak.
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    AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 23,754

    Mr. Pointer, Blair had a golden economic inheritance. He buggered it up with PFI, opening the migration floodgates, giving away half the rebate for nothing, and, best of all, Iraq.

    That said, May could well go down in history as the worst PM since WWII. The apparent proposition, and we'll see what emerges, that we remain in the customs union/single market, paying for the privilege of being governed (at least in part) by a foreign body we voted to leave is not one that will necessarily endear her to the electorate.

    If the economy that Blair inherited was so great, why did the Tories lose in 1997?
    Because their reputation for economic competence had been destroyed by Black Friday, and the previous recession was still firmly in voters' memory. They'd turned the ship around, but few cared.

    Then there was the sleaze, the in-fighting over the EU, and, most of all, the fact that they had lost direction and were out of ideas. Blair and Labour appeared new and fresh.
    Also, easy to forget now, the country was run down.

    Public services and public spaces felt almost East European when I arrived in the U.K. at the beginning of the New Labour era.
    outside of London they still are
    This is true. Except that Eastern Europe is now catching up and in some cases surpassing the British regions.

    Actually, I’ve often dwelt on this topic on here, even though you think Remainers don’t care and are somehow to blame.
    the blame doesn't lie with Remainers it lies with the british establishment the two get conflated as the establishment is largely pro remain. But they are different. The irony is that New Labour spent the family farm but left very little to show for it especially in the areas of their core vote.

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    rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 58,226
    By to the thread header. Dacre is to be Chair and Editor in Chief of Associated.

    So not clear how much freedom the actual editors will have to row back on some of the wilder stuff.
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    DecrepitJohnLDecrepitJohnL Posts: 13,300
    TGOHF said:
    Is there any recent precedent for a Conservative politician leaving Downing Street to edit a newspaper, and if so, are there any vacant editorships for which Theresa May can apply and where she could maintain the current editorial line that Theresa May is the best prime minister since Lord Palmerston?
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    Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 55,335
    MaxPB said:

    Very, very poor economic data coming out of Germany at the moment. There is a non-negligible chance that the Eurozone falls into a recession later this year which would probably drag the UK down with it.

    But, it would be quite funny if it didn’t. Just to see the attempt at contorting explanations by the ultra-Remainers.
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    TGOHFTGOHF Posts: 21,633

    In fact, we'll all have to eat ferrets once the port of Dover is effectively closed.

    there will be mass violence on the streets, the train network will collapse etc ?

    Oh.
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    rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 58,226


    However, look at the way the legacy of Blair's government is routinely trashed even by Labour supporters nowadays. 'Blairite' is a term of derision, not one of admiration, amongst Labour supporters. That situation will have to be reversed if Blair's ten years are to be seen as a golden period, and I cannot see that happening for a long while.

    Among *some* Labour supporters - I know plenty who don't see it that way, and IIRC polling is mixed - Blair personally currently gets low ratings, but his period in office is not rated badly.
    Compared to what has followed the Blair/Brown governments feel like a Belle Époque.
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    AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 23,754
    TGOHF said:

    In fact, we'll all have to eat ferrets once the port of Dover is effectively closed.

    there will be mass violence on the streets, the train network will collapse etc ?

    Oh.
    hmmm

    given the Irish Republic transports substantial quantities of its daily needs through the UK I'm surprised they are not panicking more

    begorrah.
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    AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 23,754


    However, look at the way the legacy of Blair's government is routinely trashed even by Labour supporters nowadays. 'Blairite' is a term of derision, not one of admiration, amongst Labour supporters. That situation will have to be reversed if Blair's ten years are to be seen as a golden period, and I cannot see that happening for a long while.

    Among *some* Labour supporters - I know plenty who don't see it that way, and IIRC polling is mixed - Blair personally currently gets low ratings, but his period in office is not rated badly.
    Compared to what has followed the Blair/Brown governments feel like a Belle Époque.
    maxing out the credit card is always fun

    paying for it later is a bummer
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    TGOHFTGOHF Posts: 21,633

    TGOHF said:

    In fact, we'll all have to eat ferrets once the port of Dover is effectively closed.

    there will be mass violence on the streets, the train network will collapse etc ?

    Oh.
    hmmm

    given the Irish Republic transports substantial quantities of its daily needs through the UK I'm surprised they are not panicking more

    begorrah.
    Perhaps they can ask the EU for a rebate to mitigate their new budget net contributor status ?
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    asjohnstoneasjohnstone Posts: 1,276


    However, look at the way the legacy of Blair's government is routinely trashed even by Labour supporters nowadays. 'Blairite' is a term of derision, not one of admiration, amongst Labour supporters. That situation will have to be reversed if Blair's ten years are to be seen as a golden period, and I cannot see that happening for a long while.

    Among *some* Labour supporters - I know plenty who don't see it that way, and IIRC polling is mixed - Blair personally currently gets low ratings, but his period in office is not rated badly.
    I agree, we shouldn't let his error over Iraq cloud everything. He had to make a difficult decision, there was no easy choice. No one could be really sure if Saddam had WMDs or not. Wrong doesn't translate to Liar

    The early years in particular were a great time, there was a feeling of renewal and fresh hope after the slow torture of the major administration. The big failure was not sacking Brown in 2005
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    MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 37,607

    MaxPB said:

    Very, very poor economic data coming out of Germany at the moment. There is a non-negligible chance that the Eurozone falls into a recession later this year which would probably drag the UK down with it.

    But, it would be quite funny if it didn’t. Just to see the attempt at contorting explanations by the ultra-Remainers.
    There would be a certain degree of schadenfruede for a fleeting moment before the UK economy tanked as well. Lets hope Angie and Manny can sort out the Eurozone problems before it all goes bang. This time there really is no money left to bail out southern Europe.
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    DecrepitJohnLDecrepitJohnL Posts: 13,300

    Didn't know that Stewart Jackson, formerly of this parish, is DD's chief of staff. The Express journalist who is married to him seems well-informed:

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/blog/live/2018/jun/07/former-brexit-minister-says-mays-backstop-plan-extremely-damaging-for-britain-politics-live

    I'd be inclined to bet on his going now - think he can't really stay without looking hopelessly weak.

    I'm not sure you can. Ladbrokes seems to have taken the market down which suggests they fear an imminent announcement and being taken to the cleaners by insiders. Or possibly I just looked in the wrong place.
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    TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 41,304

    Didn't know that Stewart Jackson, formerly of this parish, is DD's chief of staff. The Express journalist who is married to him seems well-informed:

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/blog/live/2018/jun/07/former-brexit-minister-says-mays-backstop-plan-extremely-damaging-for-britain-politics-live

    I'd be inclined to bet on his going now - think he can't really stay without looking hopelessly weak.

    David Davis essentially created the DexEU job and then had himself appointed to it. Well done him.

    Trouble is, such a job always needed as much inspiration as perspiration, the latter of which he is certainly able to bring.
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    Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 60,983
    Mr. L, I looked a short time ago and couldn't find it either.
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    DecrepitJohnLDecrepitJohnL Posts: 13,300


    However, look at the way the legacy of Blair's government is routinely trashed even by Labour supporters nowadays. 'Blairite' is a term of derision, not one of admiration, amongst Labour supporters. That situation will have to be reversed if Blair's ten years are to be seen as a golden period, and I cannot see that happening for a long while.

    Among *some* Labour supporters - I know plenty who don't see it that way, and IIRC polling is mixed - Blair personally currently gets low ratings, but his period in office is not rated badly.
    I agree, we shouldn't let his error over Iraq cloud everything. He had to make a difficult decision, there was no easy choice. No one could be really sure if Saddam had WMDs or not. Wrong doesn't translate to Liar

    The early years in particular were a great time, there was a feeling of renewal and fresh hope after the slow torture of the major administration. The big failure was not sacking Brown in 2005
    Since Brown is widely credited (although not on pb for some reason) with leading international effort to counter the global financial meltdown, perhaps it is as well he was not sacked in 2005.
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    edmundintokyoedmundintokyo Posts: 17,150

    Roger said:

    Has there ever been a British national who has done as much damage to this country as Paul Dacre?

    I can't think of one.

    Tony Blair.
    The fathers of Brexit: David Cameron, Theresa May, Jeremy Corbyn, Boris Johnson etc
    Brexit isn't responsible for hundreds of thousands of deaths. YET.
    TBF Tony Blair wasn't responsible for the Iraq War. I mean, he was responsible for Britain taking part in it, and should be put on trial at The Hague etc etc, but if Britain hadn't joined in that wouldn't have stopped W from doing it.
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    PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 75,929


    However, look at the way the legacy of Blair's government is routinely trashed even by Labour supporters nowadays. 'Blairite' is a term of derision, not one of admiration, amongst Labour supporters. That situation will have to be reversed if Blair's ten years are to be seen as a golden period, and I cannot see that happening for a long while.

    Among *some* Labour supporters - I know plenty who don't see it that way, and IIRC polling is mixed - Blair personally currently gets low ratings, but his period in office is not rated badly.
    Compared to what has followed the Blair/Brown governments feel like a Belle Époque.
    maxing out the credit card is always fun

    paying for it later is a bummer
    We have the assets generating a return to pay back that credit card bill. Brown only borrowed for investment remember.
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    PurplePurple Posts: 150
    If Davis leaves, who would replace him? If it's someone from outside the cabinet, their price as next leader will soar.
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    MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 37,607
    Pulpstar said:


    However, look at the way the legacy of Blair's government is routinely trashed even by Labour supporters nowadays. 'Blairite' is a term of derision, not one of admiration, amongst Labour supporters. That situation will have to be reversed if Blair's ten years are to be seen as a golden period, and I cannot see that happening for a long while.

    Among *some* Labour supporters - I know plenty who don't see it that way, and IIRC polling is mixed - Blair personally currently gets low ratings, but his period in office is not rated badly.
    Compared to what has followed the Blair/Brown governments feel like a Belle Époque.
    maxing out the credit card is always fun

    paying for it later is a bummer
    We have the assets generating a return to pay back that credit card bill. Brown only borrowed for investment remember.
    :D:D:D

    "Investment"

    :D:D:D
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    JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 39,003


    However, look at the way the legacy of Blair's government is routinely trashed even by Labour supporters nowadays. 'Blairite' is a term of derision, not one of admiration, amongst Labour supporters. That situation will have to be reversed if Blair's ten years are to be seen as a golden period, and I cannot see that happening for a long while.

    Among *some* Labour supporters - I know plenty who don't see it that way, and IIRC polling is mixed - Blair personally currently gets low ratings, but his period in office is not rated badly.
    Yes, but they tend to be your current fellow travellers. The people shouting 'Bliar' are Labour voters, not Conservative ones.
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    MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 37,607
    Purple said:

    If Davis leaves, who would replace him? If it's someone from outside the cabinet, their price as next leader will soar.

    Kwasi!
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    NigelbNigelb Posts: 62,611

    Roger said:

    Has there ever been a British national who has done as much damage to this country as Paul Dacre?

    I can't think of one.

    Tony Blair.
    The fathers of Brexit: David Cameron, Theresa May, Jeremy Corbyn, Boris Johnson etc
    I think you'd have to include Blair/Brown in that list. The 'irreversible ratchet towards a superstate' story gained a considerable momentum their watch.
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    PurplePurple Posts: 150
    Charles said:

    malcolmg said:

    Interesting article about US foreign policy in Europe:

    https://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2018/06/trump-is-choosing-eastern-europe/562130/

    “Rhetorically, the Trump administration supports Brexit. In practice, it has pursued a predatory policy in response to Brexit, designed to exploit the government’s need for new trading arrangements. Essentially, the Trump administration is using Britain’s need to join the World Trade Organization as an individual state to force it to accept painful concessions in a number of trade and services sectors, exploiting the fact that it has less leverage outside the EU. Meanwhile, in bilateral trade talks, the Trump administration is pushing Britain to accept the U.S. regulatory framework, or at least opt out of the EU single market and customs union. This will benefit U.S. economic interests in the short term, but make it much tougher for London to reach an agreement with the rest of the EU.

    The Trump administration, then, is treating Britain as an easy mark, not as a vital strategic ally.”

    Wow. I am *really* surprised.

    (Sarcasm mode off)
    Who would ever have imagined given that "Special Relationship".
    I did. As does everyone who understands the Special Relationship
    Rather than A50, Britain should have invoked Article 13 of the NATO Treaty:

    "any Party may cease to be a (member of NATO) one year after its notice of denunciation has been given to the Government of the United States of America, which will inform the Governments of the other Parties of the deposit of each notice of denunciation".
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    edmundintokyoedmundintokyo Posts: 17,150
    Say what you like about TMay but it's impressive that she's managed to keep all these self-regarding Brexit enthusiasts inside the tent for as long as she has.
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    welshowlwelshowl Posts: 4,460


    However, look at the way the legacy of Blair's government is routinely trashed even by Labour supporters nowadays. 'Blairite' is a term of derision, not one of admiration, amongst Labour supporters. That situation will have to be reversed if Blair's ten years are to be seen as a golden period, and I cannot see that happening for a long while.

    Among *some* Labour supporters - I know plenty who don't see it that way, and IIRC polling is mixed - Blair personally currently gets low ratings, but his period in office is not rated badly.
    I agree, we shouldn't let his error over Iraq cloud everything. He had to make a difficult decision, there was no easy choice. No one could be really sure if Saddam had WMDs or not. Wrong doesn't translate to Liar

    The early years in particular were a great time, there was a feeling of renewal and fresh hope after the slow torture of the major administration. The big failure was not sacking Brown in 2005
    Blair took us to war on the basis that Iraq had WMD. Now I thought that was a wrong decision, even if they did, as other regimes around the world do also, N Korea being the latest, or Pakistan, or India, or Israel and nobody was suggesting we invade them. You can also be pretty sure that mad hatter dictators have their own personal self preservation at the very top of the to do list, so why would he use them if he had them as that would have given the USA carte blanche to blow him and his country to utter smithereens?

    Now I accept Blair made a call, a genuine call as far as he was concerned, even if I disagreed. But by August 2003 it was as plain as a pikestaff that his call was wrong, and the basis on which he himself had taken us to war was totally wrong. He should have resigned there and then. It demeaned his office that he didn't.
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    YorkcityYorkcity Posts: 4,382
    edited June 2018


    However, look at the way the legacy of Blair's government is routinely trashed even by Labour supporters nowadays. 'Blairite' is a term of derision, not one of admiration, amongst Labour supporters. That situation will have to be reversed if Blair's ten years are to be seen as a golden period, and I cannot see that happening for a long while.

    Among *some* Labour supporters - I know plenty who don't see it that way, and IIRC polling is mixed - Blair personally currently gets low ratings, but his period in office is not rated badly.
    I agree, we shouldn't let his error over Iraq cloud everything. He had to make a difficult decision, there was no easy choice. No one could be really sure if Saddam had WMDs or not. Wrong doesn't translate to Liar

    The early years in particular were a great time, there was a feeling of renewal and fresh hope after the slow torture of the major administration. The big failure was not sacking Brown in 2005
    I agree apart from the sacking of Brown in 2005.

    Brown had a lot of support in 2004-5, It would have been difficult to do that, without splitting the party , completely..

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    NigelbNigelb Posts: 62,611

    Charles said:

    Are the BBC trolling us with their rather large coverage of the tragic death of Kate Spade? I'd never heard of her - then again, I wouldn't exactly have been her target market. But I've asked several women from various backgrounds yesterday, and none of them had heard of her either.

    I'm awaiting a news organisation to announce the death of a 'celebrity' that they had just invented, and watch all the other media organisations pick it up ...

    Meaningful affordable luxury brand in the US. Like Coach - or like Jaegar used to be over here
    Thanks. I have to admit I hadn't heard of 'Coach' either.
    Even I have heard of Coach, and my ignorance of fashion is vast and deep.
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    PurplePurple Posts: 150
    The Daily Mail's line "Walk away from a bad deal - and make (the) EU pay" is just copying what Trump said about Mexico. Trump couldn't deliver. And the EU27's economy is six times the size of Britain's. The mouse that roared?
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    JonathanDJonathanD Posts: 2,400
    A perfect example of the intellectual titans who voted for Brexit.


    https://twitter.com/NadineDorries/status/1004656199885836288?s=20
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    SandpitSandpit Posts: 49,897
    MaxPB said:

    Pulpstar said:


    However, look at the way the legacy of Blair's government is routinely trashed even by Labour supporters nowadays. 'Blairite' is a term of derision, not one of admiration, amongst Labour supporters. That situation will have to be reversed if Blair's ten years are to be seen as a golden period, and I cannot see that happening for a long while.

    Among *some* Labour supporters - I know plenty who don't see it that way, and IIRC polling is mixed - Blair personally currently gets low ratings, but his period in office is not rated badly.
    Compared to what has followed the Blair/Brown governments feel like a Belle Époque.
    maxing out the credit card is always fun

    paying for it later is a bummer
    We have the assets generating a return to pay back that credit card bill. Brown only borrowed for investment remember.
    :D:D:D

    "Investment"

    :D:D:D
    £50bn a year in tax credits was a great investment in the 2005 election result. Or did you not mean that sort of “investment”? :D
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    TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 114,444
    Scott_P said:
    Isn’t he Some Saturdays and Sundays rather than proper SAS?
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    MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 37,607
    Purple said:

    The Daily Mail's line "Walk away from a bad deal - and make (the) EU pay" is just copying what Trump said about Mexico. Trump couldn't deliver. And the EU27's economy is six times the size of Britain's. The mouse that roared?

    Six times as large, 27 times as many agendas (and only one that counts, in the end).
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    Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453

    Isn’t he Some Saturdays and Sundays rather than proper SAS?

    What they now call the reserves
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    PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 75,929
    Sandpit said:

    MaxPB said:

    Pulpstar said:


    However, look at the way the legacy of Blair's government is routinely trashed even by Labour supporters nowadays. 'Blairite' is a term of derision, not one of admiration, amongst Labour supporters. That situation will have to be reversed if Blair's ten years are to be seen as a golden period, and I cannot see that happening for a long while.

    Among *some* Labour supporters - I know plenty who don't see it that way, and IIRC polling is mixed - Blair personally currently gets low ratings, but his period in office is not rated badly.
    Compared to what has followed the Blair/Brown governments feel like a Belle Époque.
    maxing out the credit card is always fun

    paying for it later is a bummer
    We have the assets generating a return to pay back that credit card bill. Brown only borrowed for investment remember.
    :D:D:D

    "Investment"

    :D:D:D
    £50bn a year in tax credits was a great investment in the 2005 election result. Or did you not mean that sort of “investment”? :D
    Brown ended boom and bust, he said so in the commons.

    No laughing at the back.
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    MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 37,607
    Sandpit said:

    MaxPB said:

    Pulpstar said:


    However, look at the way the legacy of Blair's government is routinely trashed even by Labour supporters nowadays. 'Blairite' is a term of derision, not one of admiration, amongst Labour supporters. That situation will have to be reversed if Blair's ten years are to be seen as a golden period, and I cannot see that happening for a long while.

    Among *some* Labour supporters - I know plenty who don't see it that way, and IIRC polling is mixed - Blair personally currently gets low ratings, but his period in office is not rated badly.
    Compared to what has followed the Blair/Brown governments feel like a Belle Époque.
    maxing out the credit card is always fun

    paying for it later is a bummer
    We have the assets generating a return to pay back that credit card bill. Brown only borrowed for investment remember.
    :D:D:D

    "Investment"

    :D:D:D
    £50bn a year in tax credits was a great investment in the 2005 election result. Or did you not mean that sort of “investment”? :D
    Not just 2005, 2010 also! The whole Labour/Mandy campaign was "the Tories will take away middle class bungs".
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    TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 41,304

    Scott_P said:
    Isn’t he Some Saturdays and Sundays rather than proper SAS?
    tbf in eg Iraq and Afghan, everyone got deployed. After DD's time, that said.
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    TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 40,109
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    Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    Pulpstar said:

    Brown ended boom and bust, he said so in the commons.

    No laughing at the back.

    Brexit means we will look back on Gordo's reign as a period of good governance...
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    TGOHFTGOHF Posts: 21,633
    Scott_P said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Brown ended boom and bust, he said so in the commons.

    No laughing at the back.

    Brexit means we will look back on Gordo's reign as a period of good governance...
    Lol.

    No.

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    NigelbNigelb Posts: 62,611

    F1: new Mercedes engine to be introduced in France, not Canada as hoped. Reason is a 'quality issue'. I think that's managerial bullshit speak for 'It keeps breaking'.

    'Keeps breaking' is probably overegging it - remember that they have to last seven races or so, so unless you're absolutely confident in the new components, you're going to wait.
    It might compromise their race in Canada - and it will certainly give us a good baseline to assess the other engine upgrades - but taking a view of the season, it's sensible.
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    MaxPB said:

    Very, very poor economic data coming out of Germany at the moment. There is a non-negligible chance that the Eurozone falls into a recession later this year which would probably drag the UK down with it.

    Given the UK's recent lacklustre economic performance (not to mention the potential economic impact of Brexit), would it not be equally reasonable to say that we have already been dragging them down?
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    NigelbNigelb Posts: 62,611

    TGOHF said:
    Is there any recent precedent for a Conservative politician leaving Downing Street to edit a newspaper, and if so, are there any vacant editorships for which Theresa May can apply and where she could maintain the current editorial line that Theresa May is the best prime minister since Lord Palmerston?

    Something Wodehousian like Milady's Boudoir ?
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    JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 39,003
    Nigelb said:

    Charles said:

    Are the BBC trolling us with their rather large coverage of the tragic death of Kate Spade? I'd never heard of her - then again, I wouldn't exactly have been her target market. But I've asked several women from various backgrounds yesterday, and none of them had heard of her either.

    I'm awaiting a news organisation to announce the death of a 'celebrity' that they had just invented, and watch all the other media organisations pick it up ...

    Meaningful affordable luxury brand in the US. Like Coach - or like Jaegar used to be over here
    Thanks. I have to admit I hadn't heard of 'Coach' either.
    Even I have heard of Coach, and my ignorance of fashion is vast and deep.
    If they don't make balaclavas, then it's not fashion. :)
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    David_EvershedDavid_Evershed Posts: 6,506

    Wikipedia
    On leaving Bec Grammar School in Tooting, his A Level results were not good enough to secure a university place, so Davis worked as an insurance clerk and became a member of the Territorial Army's 21 SAS (Artists) Regiment in order to earn the money to retake his examinations. After doing so, he was able to win a place at the University of Warwick (BSc Joint Hons Molecular Science/Computer Science 1968–71).
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    TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 41,304

    Nigelb said:

    Charles said:

    Are the BBC trolling us with their rather large coverage of the tragic death of Kate Spade? I'd never heard of her - then again, I wouldn't exactly have been her target market. But I've asked several women from various backgrounds yesterday, and none of them had heard of her either.

    I'm awaiting a news organisation to announce the death of a 'celebrity' that they had just invented, and watch all the other media organisations pick it up ...

    Meaningful affordable luxury brand in the US. Like Coach - or like Jaegar used to be over here
    Thanks. I have to admit I hadn't heard of 'Coach' either.
    Even I have heard of Coach, and my ignorance of fashion is vast and deep.
    If they don't make balaclavas, then it's not fashion. :)
    You and DD on that one, then?
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    TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 41,304


    Wikipedia
    On leaving Bec Grammar School in Tooting, his A Level results were not good enough to secure a university place, so Davis worked as an insurance clerk and became a member of the Territorial Army's 21 SAS (Artists) Regiment in order to earn the money to retake his examinations. After doing so, he was able to win a place at the University of Warwick (BSc Joint Hons Molecular Science/Computer Science 1968–71).
    That, if I may say, is a seriously dedicated and admirable back story. Difficult to begrudge him his current position, even if he isn't up to it.
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    David_EvershedDavid_Evershed Posts: 6,506
    MaxPB said:

    Purple said:

    If Davis leaves, who would replace him? If it's someone from outside the cabinet, their price as next leader will soar.

    Kwasi!
    He's good but for some reason Kwasi has not been given a prominent ministerial position. Anyone know why?

    He was the partner of Amber Rudd for a while.
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    MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 37,607

    MaxPB said:

    Very, very poor economic data coming out of Germany at the moment. There is a non-negligible chance that the Eurozone falls into a recession later this year which would probably drag the UK down with it.

    Given the UK's recent lacklustre economic performance (not to mention the potential economic impact of Brexit), would it not be equally reasonable to say that we have already been dragging them down?
    Yes, as we were talking about here over the last few days, Germany has a severely unbalanced economy which is completely dependent on external demand. Brexit, Trump's trade war and nationalistic policies coming out of Italy and Eastern Europe are all putting very large brakes on the German economy and there is little to no domestic demand to make up for that like there would be in the UK, US and other consumer economies.
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    David_EvershedDavid_Evershed Posts: 6,506

    TGOHF said:

    In fact, we'll all have to eat ferrets once the port of Dover is effectively closed.

    there will be mass violence on the streets, the train network will collapse etc ?

    Oh.
    hmmm

    given the Irish Republic transports substantial quantities of its daily needs through the UK I'm surprised they are not panicking more

    begorrah.
    Ireland is expanding its ports to take more sea going traffic so as to by-pass UK roads.
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    currystarcurrystar Posts: 1,171

    MaxPB said:

    Very, very poor economic data coming out of Germany at the moment. There is a non-negligible chance that the Eurozone falls into a recession later this year which would probably drag the UK down with it.

    Given the UK's recent lacklustre economic performance (not to mention the potential economic impact of Brexit), would it not be equally reasonable to say that we have already been dragging them down?
    Have you seen the employment figures????
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    Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    @alexmassie: To be fair, IDS has *extensive* experience of this kind of realisation. https://twitter.com/talkRADIO/status/1004638802231558144
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    David_EvershedDavid_Evershed Posts: 6,506
    Scott_P said:
    David Davies has a track record of resigning. He previously resigned as an MP and fought a by-election. He could challenge for the leadership.
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    MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 37,607

    MaxPB said:

    Purple said:

    If Davis leaves, who would replace him? If it's someone from outside the cabinet, their price as next leader will soar.

    Kwasi!
    He's good but for some reason Kwasi has not been given a prominent ministerial position. Anyone know why?

    He was the partner of Amber Rudd for a while.
    Beats me, though some think it's because Theresa fears his leadership ambition.

    My ideal ticket would be Javid for PM, Gove for Chancellor and Kwasi in Trade with a view to folding it into BEIS and him taking over the whole brief.
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    JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 39,003
    TOPPING said:

    Nigelb said:

    Charles said:

    Are the BBC trolling us with their rather large coverage of the tragic death of Kate Spade? I'd never heard of her - then again, I wouldn't exactly have been her target market. But I've asked several women from various backgrounds yesterday, and none of them had heard of her either.

    I'm awaiting a news organisation to announce the death of a 'celebrity' that they had just invented, and watch all the other media organisations pick it up ...

    Meaningful affordable luxury brand in the US. Like Coach - or like Jaegar used to be over here
    Thanks. I have to admit I hadn't heard of 'Coach' either.
    Even I have heard of Coach, and my ignorance of fashion is vast and deep.
    If they don't make balaclavas, then it's not fashion. :)
    You and DD on that one, then?
    I'd like to make clear I'm not in the army, never have been in the army, and my only effect on an enemy would be to cause them to p*ss themselves laughing.

    But I do like balaclavas.

    I am fairly happy with that state of affairs. :)
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    AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 30,340
    Noteworthy from someone outside the usual awkward squad:

    https://twitter.com/jc4southsuffolk/status/1004662991558709250
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    Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    DD has left No 10
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    CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 59,674
    edited June 2018

    TGOHF said:

    In fact, we'll all have to eat ferrets once the port of Dover is effectively closed.

    there will be mass violence on the streets, the train network will collapse etc ?

    Oh.
    hmmm

    given the Irish Republic transports substantial quantities of its daily needs through the UK I'm surprised they are not panicking more

    begorrah.
    Ireland is expanding its ports to take more sea going traffic so as to by-pass UK roads.
    Still (more than) doubles transit time.....just as well the Irish don't export lots of food.....

    Traveling directly from Ireland to Cherbourg, in France, takes roughly twice as long as the U.K. route. The direct ferry route to Belgium’s Zeebrugge takes nearly three times as long.

    https://www.politico.eu/article/cargo-food-production-producers-brexit-burns-irelands-british-bridge-to-eu-markets/
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    David_EvershedDavid_Evershed Posts: 6,506
    The Conservatives are arguing over dancing on the head of a pin but they should be sticking the pin into the EU negotiators.

    The EU is not going to agree to any of the government's current options.
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    TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 114,444
    ‪Does anyone have an idea what this advert is for? Because I was distracted by GDPR concerns.

    https://twitter.com/callrecapp/status/1004308483519500288?s=21
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    JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 39,003
    Off-topic:

    The US police are out of control:
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/world-us-canada-44393573/arizona-police-violently-beat-unarmed-robert-johnson

    I know that might not be the *full* story, but I find it difficult to find an excuse for that much violence.
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    David_EvershedDavid_Evershed Posts: 6,506

    TGOHF said:

    In fact, we'll all have to eat ferrets once the port of Dover is effectively closed.

    there will be mass violence on the streets, the train network will collapse etc ?

    Oh.
    hmmm

    given the Irish Republic transports substantial quantities of its daily needs through the UK I'm surprised they are not panicking more

    begorrah.
    Ireland is expanding its ports to take more sea going traffic so as to by-pass UK roads.
    Still (more than) doubles transit time.....just as well the Irish don't export lots of food.....

    Traveling directly from Ireland to Cherbourg, in France, takes roughly twice as long as the U.K. route. The direct ferry route to Belgium’s Zeebrugge takes nearly three times as long.

    https://www.politico.eu/article/cargo-food-production-producers-brexit-burns-irelands-british-bridge-to-eu-markets/
    Sometimes it is the certainty and relaibility of travel that matters, not the time it takes.
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    CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 59,674

    TGOHF said:

    In fact, we'll all have to eat ferrets once the port of Dover is effectively closed.

    there will be mass violence on the streets, the train network will collapse etc ?

    Oh.
    hmmm

    given the Irish Republic transports substantial quantities of its daily needs through the UK I'm surprised they are not panicking more

    begorrah.
    Ireland is expanding its ports to take more sea going traffic so as to by-pass UK roads.
    Still (more than) doubles transit time.....just as well the Irish don't export lots of food.....

    Traveling directly from Ireland to Cherbourg, in France, takes roughly twice as long as the U.K. route. The direct ferry route to Belgium’s Zeebrugge takes nearly three times as long.

    https://www.politico.eu/article/cargo-food-production-producers-brexit-burns-irelands-british-bridge-to-eu-markets/
    Sometimes it is the certainty and relaibility of travel that matters, not the time it takes.
    Some 50 percent of Ireland’s hauliers serve the Continent, and 30 percent of them carry refrigerated goods, where every hour counts....Food distribution networks are timed like clockwork too. Irish exporters will often truck goods destined for sale in far-flung supermarkets within just a few days. Delays of just four to five hours — which could mean missed ferries, mandated rest times for truckers and spoiled goods
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    The Conservatives are arguing over dancing on the head of a pin but they should be sticking the pin into the EU negotiators.

    The EU is not going to agree to any of the government's current options.

    Yes, this is the scary thing. Given the current ructions and contortions required just to reach agreement on a negotiating position, the negotiations themselves don't bear thinking about!
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    PurplePurple Posts: 150

    In fact, we'll all have to eat ferrets once the port of Dover is effectively closed.

    Farewell to the kilt in Scotland?

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    Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826
    The backstop should be time-limited for as long as a trade agreement is agreed. If that means all we have agreed is until transition ends at 31 Dec 2019 then that is when the backstop should end.

    There is no backstop written into Article 50. There is none now, there is no reason there should be any incentive removed from reaching the final agreement.
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    ralphmalphralphmalph Posts: 2,201

    TGOHF said:

    In fact, we'll all have to eat ferrets once the port of Dover is effectively closed.

    there will be mass violence on the streets, the train network will collapse etc ?

    Oh.
    hmmm

    given the Irish Republic transports substantial quantities of its daily needs through the UK I'm surprised they are not panicking more

    begorrah.
    Ireland is expanding its ports to take more sea going traffic so as to by-pass UK roads.
    Still (more than) doubles transit time.....just as well the Irish don't export lots of food.....

    Traveling directly from Ireland to Cherbourg, in France, takes roughly twice as long as the U.K. route. The direct ferry route to Belgium’s Zeebrugge takes nearly three times as long.

    https://www.politico.eu/article/cargo-food-production-producers-brexit-burns-irelands-british-bridge-to-eu-markets/
    Sometimes it is the certainty and relaibility of travel that matters, not the time it takes.
    Some 50 percent of Ireland’s hauliers serve the Continent, and 30 percent of them carry refrigerated goods, where every hour counts....Food distribution networks are timed like clockwork too. Irish exporters will often truck goods destined for sale in far-flung supermarkets within just a few days. Delays of just four to five hours — which could mean missed ferries, mandated rest times for truckers and spoiled goods
    Does anybody know of these products that when keep in refrigerated lorries spoil with delays of a few hours or a day?
    I buy these products in the supermarket where they have been for a few days put them in my fridge and they keep for more days.
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    NigelbNigelb Posts: 62,611
    Speaking of winging it on important negotiations...
    https://www.politico.com/story/2018/06/07/trump-bolton-north-korea-630362
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    David_EvershedDavid_Evershed Posts: 6,506


    Wikipedia
    On leaving Bec Grammar School in Tooting, his A Level results were not good enough to secure a university place, so Davis worked as an insurance clerk and became a member of the Territorial Army's 21 SAS (Artists) Regiment in order to earn the money to retake his examinations. After doing so, he was able to win a place at the University of Warwick (BSc Joint Hons Molecular Science/Computer Science 1968–71).
    I used the Warwick University Elliott 4100 computer in 1968/9 which David Davies would have used for his computer science course.

    We travelled down from Nottingham University and used the Warwick machine late evening when they were not using it themselves. It had a visual display output which we did not have at Nottingham. I was filmed there for Tomorrow's World and also in a film by the British Council.

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    Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453

    The backstop should be time-limited for as long as a trade agreement is agreed.

    https://twitter.com/StewartWood/status/1004655437004922880
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    Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 60,983
    Mr. B, never in a million years would I over-egg something.
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    CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 59,674

    TGOHF said:

    In fact, we'll all have to eat ferrets once the port of Dover is effectively closed.

    there will be mass violence on the streets, the train network will collapse etc ?

    Oh.
    hmmm

    given the Irish Republic transports substantial quantities of its daily needs through the UK I'm surprised they are not panicking more

    begorrah.
    Ireland is expanding its ports to take more sea going traffic so as to by-pass UK roads.
    Still (more than) doubles transit time.....just as well the Irish don't export lots of food.....

    Traveling directly from Ireland to Cherbourg, in France, takes roughly twice as long as the U.K. route. The direct ferry route to Belgium’s Zeebrugge takes nearly three times as long.

    https://www.politico.eu/article/cargo-food-production-producers-brexit-burns-irelands-british-bridge-to-eu-markets/
    Sometimes it is the certainty and relaibility of travel that matters, not the time it takes.
    Some 50 percent of Ireland’s hauliers serve the Continent, and 30 percent of them carry refrigerated goods, where every hour counts....Food distribution networks are timed like clockwork too. Irish exporters will often truck goods destined for sale in far-flung supermarkets within just a few days. Delays of just four to five hours — which could mean missed ferries, mandated rest times for truckers and spoiled goods
    Does anybody know of these products that when keep in refrigerated lorries spoil with delays of a few hours or a day?
    I buy these products in the supermarket where they have been for a few days put them in my fridge and they keep for more days.
    I suggest you ask Food & Drink Ireland.

    But, for example, a supermarket may specify that goods reach its shelves with 'X days use by' left, and 'X-1' or 'X-2' when the goods arrive could easily involve penalty or outright rejection.
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    malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 41,974

    you have to laugh malc

    all these we want to strut the world types haven't got their heads round Europe as whole is destined to be a back water the future is in Africa and Asia and they will push their own values and tell westerners to piss off.

    in 1950 Europeans were about 20% of world population by 2050 they'll be about 5% and falling

    So we're going to be a backwater off a backwater.

    Lovely. You have such ambitions for our country ... ;)
    Sometimes the truth hurts
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