Howdy, Stranger!

It looks like you're new here. If you want to get involved, click one of these buttons!

politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » This is more of a Dieppe Raid than a D-Day success for DD

SystemSystem Posts: 6,389
edited June 7 in General

imagepoliticalbetting.com » Blog Archive » This is more of a Dieppe Raid than a D-Day success for DD

This is meant to be the basis of legally binding text. There is nothing judiciable about aspiration…

Read the full story here


«13

Comments

  • RobDRobD Posts: 34,016
    First :smiley:
  • SlackbladderSlackbladder Posts: 6,363
    This is all immensely tedious. Lets just sign up to CU now and be done with it. It's going to be the best deal possible, and probably always was going to be.
  • ElliotElliot Posts: 1,516
    The legality is important but the expectation is also important on a symbolic basis. When the UK remains tied to EU customs policy will now be a matter for the next Tory leadership election. I imagine any candidate who announces he will honour the end date gets a leg up.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 46,183
    Personally I think it is very decent of David Davis to accept such a personally humiliating document for the greater good of the country.
  • felixfelix Posts: 8,008
    fpt: The most amusing feature of the last 48 hours of shenanigans about Brexit is watching the pundits squirm that they haven't got a resignation so now they're urgung the EU to throw it out, while the never correct Robert Peston now believes DD won't be staying 'for long'. The only thing more shambolic that the two major political parties in the UK is the press reporting of them.

    Edited addition: Sam Coates seems to be quite manic about all this - maybe he should go and have a lie down somewhere. His desperate attempts to sow discord are reminiscent of Lord Adonis - and he has never recovered!
  • ElliotElliot Posts: 1,516
    Are there any polls of the Tory membership on the Customs Union?
  • SlackbladderSlackbladder Posts: 6,363
    felix said:

    fpt: The most amusing feature of the last 48 hours of shenanigans about Brexit is watching the pundits squirm that they haven't got a resignation so now they're urgung the EU to throw it out, while the never correct Robert Peston now believes DD won't be staying 'for long'. The only thing more shambolic that the two major political parties in the UK is the press reporting of them.

    Edited addition: Sam Coates seems to be quite manic about all this - maybe he should go and have a lie down somewhere. His desperate attempts to sow discord are reminiscent of Lord Adonis - and he has never recovered!

    Journalists are agents of chaos. They don't care other than that.
  • AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 23,247
    FPT:

    Average of the 10 most recent German opinion polls:

    CDU/CSU 32.7%
    SPD 17.3%
    AfD 14.6%
    Greens 12.0%
    Left 10.7%
    FDP 8.2%
    Others 4.5%

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opinion_polling_for_the_next_German_federal_election#Poll_results
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 4,728

    This is all immensely tedious. Lets just sign up to CU now and be done with it. It's going to be the best deal possible, and probably always was going to be.

    I think we just have.

    Our position is now to stay in the CU as long as the EU finds that convenient.

    As you say, probably the best Deal that we could get.
  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 17,903
    Marzipan dildos have many upsides not least when you present George Osborne with that specially iced Christmas cake
  • felixfelix Posts: 8,008

    felix said:

    fpt: The most amusing feature of the last 48 hours of shenanigans about Brexit is watching the pundits squirm that they haven't got a resignation so now they're urgung the EU to throw it out, while the never correct Robert Peston now believes DD won't be staying 'for long'. The only thing more shambolic that the two major political parties in the UK is the press reporting of them.

    Edited addition: Sam Coates seems to be quite manic about all this - maybe he should go and have a lie down somewhere. His desperate attempts to sow discord are reminiscent of Lord Adonis - and he has never recovered!

    Journalists are agents of chaos. They don't care other than that.
    Yes but when they bemoan, as they do constantly, our politicians for their ducking, diving and deception it is wonderfully funny when their own machinations are so completely exposed and they show that they can dish it out but don't like it right back at them!
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 19,989
    felix said:

    fpt: The most amusing feature of the last 48 hours of shenanigans about Brexit is watching the pundits squirm that they haven't got a resignation so now they're urgung the EU to throw it out, while the never correct Robert Peston now believes DD won't be staying 'for long'. The only thing more shambolic that the two major political parties in the UK is the press reporting of them.

    Edited addition: Sam Coates seems to be quite manic about all this - maybe he should go and have a lie down somewhere. His desperate attempts to sow discord are reminiscent of Lord Adonis - and he has never recovered!

    Don’t forget James Chapman live Tweeting a mental breakdown last summer.

    There’s a group of Westminster Villagers that have been driven completely nuts by brexit.
  • RobDRobD Posts: 34,016
    Foxy said:

    This is all immensely tedious. Lets just sign up to CU now and be done with it. It's going to be the best deal possible, and probably always was going to be.

    I think we just have.

    Our position is now to stay in the CU as long as the EU finds that convenient.

    As you say, probably the best Deal that we could get.
    I thought this was in lieu of a new agreement, or were the EU never serious about this?
  • Scott_PScott_P Posts: 38,779
    Sandpit said:

    There’s a group of Westminster Villagers that have been driven completely nuts by brexit.

    The Cabinet
  • Stark_DawningStark_Dawning Posts: 3,684
    Theresa and Ollie have played a blinder. DD is little more than a shrunken husk, there to communicate his mistress's decrees to Barnier. As for the ERG: they should make Rees-Mogg Jnr their leader - he has more authority and standing than the present incumbent.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 69,033
    Sandpit said:

    felix said:

    fpt: The most amusing feature of the last 48 hours of shenanigans about Brexit is watching the pundits squirm that they haven't got a resignation so now they're urgung the EU to throw it out, while the never correct Robert Peston now believes DD won't be staying 'for long'. The only thing more shambolic that the two major political parties in the UK is the press reporting of them.

    Edited addition: Sam Coates seems to be quite manic about all this - maybe he should go and have a lie down somewhere. His desperate attempts to sow discord are reminiscent of Lord Adonis - and he has never recovered!

    Don’t forget James Chapman live Tweeting a mental breakdown last summer.

    There’s a group of Westminster Villagers that have been driven completely nuts by brexit.
    Yes that’s the cabinet and a lot of the Tory party.
  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 17,903

    Sandpit said:

    felix said:

    fpt: The most amusing feature of the last 48 hours of shenanigans about Brexit is watching the pundits squirm that they haven't got a resignation so now they're urgung the EU to throw it out, while the never correct Robert Peston now believes DD won't be staying 'for long'. The only thing more shambolic that the two major political parties in the UK is the press reporting of them.

    Edited addition: Sam Coates seems to be quite manic about all this - maybe he should go and have a lie down somewhere. His desperate attempts to sow discord are reminiscent of Lord Adonis - and he has never recovered!

    Don’t forget James Chapman live Tweeting a mental breakdown last summer.

    There’s a group of Westminster Villagers that have been driven completely nuts by brexit.
    Yes that’s the cabinet and a lot of the Tory party.
    that would include yourself of course :-)
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 69,033

    Sandpit said:

    felix said:

    fpt: The most amusing feature of the last 48 hours of shenanigans about Brexit is watching the pundits squirm that they haven't got a resignation so now they're urgung the EU to throw it out, while the never correct Robert Peston now believes DD won't be staying 'for long'. The only thing more shambolic that the two major political parties in the UK is the press reporting of them.

    Edited addition: Sam Coates seems to be quite manic about all this - maybe he should go and have a lie down somewhere. His desperate attempts to sow discord are reminiscent of Lord Adonis - and he has never recovered!

    Don’t forget James Chapman live Tweeting a mental breakdown last summer.

    There’s a group of Westminster Villagers that have been driven completely nuts by brexit.
    Yes that’s the cabinet and a lot of the Tory party.
    that would include yourself of course :-)
    I’m enjoying Brexit and looking forward to hard Brexit.

    It will bring long overdue austerity to the country, will be the perfect excuse to abolish working tax credits.
  • timmotimmo Posts: 801
    Sandpit said:

    felix said:

    fpt: The most amusing feature of the last 48 hours of shenanigans about Brexit is watching the pundits squirm that they haven't got a resignation so now they're urgung the EU to throw it out, while the never correct Robert Peston now believes DD won't be staying 'for long'. The only thing more shambolic that the two major political parties in the UK is the press reporting of them.

    Edited addition: Sam Coates seems to be quite manic about all this - maybe he should go and have a lie down somewhere. His desperate attempts to sow discord are reminiscent of Lord Adonis - and he has never recovered!

    Don’t forget James Chapman live Tweeting a mental breakdown last summer.

    There’s a group of Westminster Villagers that have been driven completely nuts by brexit.
    It is when they realise they dont have the influence they thought they had...the realisation causes a mental blowup which they cant reconcile.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 14,887
    Foxy said:

    This is all immensely tedious. Lets just sign up to CU now and be done with it. It's going to be the best deal possible, and probably always was going to be.

    I think we just have.

    Our position is now to stay in the CU as long as the EU finds that convenient.

    As you say, probably the best Deal that we could get.
    What irritates me is that we have been calling and calling the EU Department of Negotiating the Customs Union With The UK Once And For All and they never seem to answer the phone.

    Says every trade secretary for the next 50 years.
  • logical_songlogical_song Posts: 6,334
    Foxy said:

    This is all immensely tedious. Lets just sign up to CU now and be done with it. It's going to be the best deal possible, and probably always was going to be.

    I think we just have.

    Our position is now to stay in the CU as long as the EU finds that convenient.

    As you say, probably the best Deal that we could get.
    ... but is it in any way better than not leaving?
  • BarnesianBarnesian Posts: 3,319
    RobD said:

    Foxy said:

    This is all immensely tedious. Lets just sign up to CU now and be done with it. It's going to be the best deal possible, and probably always was going to be.

    I think we just have.

    Our position is now to stay in the CU as long as the EU finds that convenient.

    As you say, probably the best Deal that we could get.
    I thought this was in lieu of a new agreement, or were the EU never serious about this?
    As you say, this is a backstop, in lieu of an agreement on avoiding a hard border in Ireland.

    The EU has tabled a serious proposal. The UK government has still not been able to agree within itself on a counter proposal. Who isn't being serious here?
  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 17,903
    Foxy said:

    This is all immensely tedious. Lets just sign up to CU now and be done with it. It's going to be the best deal possible, and probably always was going to be.

    I think we just have.

    Our position is now to stay in the CU as long as the EU finds that convenient.

    As you say, probably the best Deal that we could get.
    It's probably the one closest to the national mood of a soft Brexit. Enough to tell remainers were still talking enough to tell Leavers some blue water has appeared between us and them.
  • AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 23,247
    edited June 7
    O/T

    "Nine people have been arrested over allegations of fraud in connection with the Grenfell Tower fire.
    Eight men and one woman were detained by officers during raids at about 07:00 BST at 11 addresses, mainly in west London, the Met Police said.
    In a briefing, the force said two of the people arrested are linked but that all of the alleged offences are separate.
    The value of the alleged frauds range from £25,000 to £100,000."

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-44396514
  • logical_songlogical_song Posts: 6,334
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 14,887
    AndyJS said:

    O/T

    "Nine people have been arrested over allegations of fraud in connection with the Grenfell Tower fire.
    Eight men and one woman were detained by officers during raids at about 07:00 BST at 11 addresses, mainly in west London, the Met Police said.
    In a briefing, the force said two of the people arrested are linked but that all of the alleged offences are separate.
    The value of the alleged frauds range from £25,000 to £100,000."

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-44396514

    This was the element that Andrew O'Hagan didn't want to spend time on in his report and I understand why. There are criminals everywhere and it shouldn't detract from the main thrust of the investigation. It is a rather unpleasant sideshow, but a sideshow nevertheless.
  • BarnesianBarnesian Posts: 3,319

    Foxy said:

    This is all immensely tedious. Lets just sign up to CU now and be done with it. It's going to be the best deal possible, and probably always was going to be.

    I think we just have.

    Our position is now to stay in the CU as long as the EU finds that convenient.

    As you say, probably the best Deal that we could get.
    ... but is it in any way better than not leaving?
    Nope. It's worse. That's why the people should now have a vote on the specific proposal.
  • logical_songlogical_song Posts: 6,334
    Elliot said:

    The legality is important but the expectation is also important on a symbolic basis. When the UK remains tied to EU customs policy will now be a matter for the next Tory leadership election. I imagine any candidate who announces he will honour the end date gets a leg up.

    It would then be up to them to find a clever way of kicking the can even further down the road, a contradictory policy will always be impossible to implement.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 69,033

    This is all immensely tedious. Lets just sign up to CU now and be done with it. It's going to be the best deal possible, and probably always was going to be.

    Remaining in the customs union but leaving the single market is daft as it is economically illiterate.

    So if we’re staying in one we might as stay in both.
  • SlackbladderSlackbladder Posts: 6,363
    Barnesian said:

    Foxy said:

    This is all immensely tedious. Lets just sign up to CU now and be done with it. It's going to be the best deal possible, and probably always was going to be.

    I think we just have.

    Our position is now to stay in the CU as long as the EU finds that convenient.

    As you say, probably the best Deal that we could get.
    ... but is it in any way better than not leaving?
    Nope. It's worse. That's why the people should now have a vote on the specific proposal.
    The fundamental difference is that we're not part of the political structure of the EU. That might be good enough for many many people.
  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 17,903

    Sandpit said:

    felix said:

    fpt: The most amusing feature of the last 48 hours of shenanigans about Brexit is watching the pundits squirm that they haven't got a resignation so now they're urgung the EU to throw it out, while the never correct Robert Peston now believes DD won't be staying 'for long'. The only thing more shambolic that the two major political parties in the UK is the press reporting of them.

    Edited addition: Sam Coates seems to be quite manic about all this - maybe he should go and have a lie down somewhere. His desperate attempts to sow discord are reminiscent of Lord Adonis - and he has never recovered!

    Don’t forget James Chapman live Tweeting a mental breakdown last summer.

    There’s a group of Westminster Villagers that have been driven completely nuts by brexit.
    Yes that’s the cabinet and a lot of the Tory party.
    that would include yourself of course :-)
    I’m enjoying Brexit and looking forward to hard Brexit.

    It will bring long overdue austerity to the country, will be the perfect excuse to abolish working tax credits.
    well lets accept the conservatives have lost the plot.

    the whole Brexit exercise was totally avoidable and started with Dave not knowing why he wanted to be PM when he got there

    really this country has pissed the last twenty years away
  • BarnesianBarnesian Posts: 3,319
    The cat isn't out of the bag.
  • FenmanFenman Posts: 349
    Poundland to close stores and cut jobs. At long last. An economic consequence Brexit voters will understand. So long as someone explains it to them slowly.
  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 17,903

    Barnesian said:

    Foxy said:

    This is all immensely tedious. Lets just sign up to CU now and be done with it. It's going to be the best deal possible, and probably always was going to be.

    I think we just have.

    Our position is now to stay in the CU as long as the EU finds that convenient.

    As you say, probably the best Deal that we could get.
    ... but is it in any way better than not leaving?
    Nope. It's worse. That's why the people should now have a vote on the specific proposal.
    The fundamental difference is that we're not part of the political structure of the EU. That might be good enough for many many people.
    suits me

  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 14,887

    Sandpit said:

    felix said:

    fpt: The most amusing feature of the last 48 hours of shenanigans about Brexit is watching the pundits squirm that they haven't got a resignation so now they're urgung the EU to throw it out, while the never correct Robert Peston now believes DD won't be staying 'for long'. The only thing more shambolic that the two major political parties in the UK is the press reporting of them.

    Edited addition: Sam Coates seems to be quite manic about all this - maybe he should go and have a lie down somewhere. His desperate attempts to sow discord are reminiscent of Lord Adonis - and he has never recovered!

    Don’t forget James Chapman live Tweeting a mental breakdown last summer.

    There’s a group of Westminster Villagers that have been driven completely nuts by brexit.
    Yes that’s the cabinet and a lot of the Tory party.
    that would include yourself of course :-)
    I’m enjoying Brexit and looking forward to hard Brexit.

    It will bring long overdue austerity to the country, will be the perfect excuse to abolish working tax credits.
    well lets accept the conservatives have lost the plot.

    the whole Brexit exercise was totally avoidable and started with Dave not knowing why he wanted to be PM when he got there

    really this country has pissed the last twenty years away
    It was avoidable and now we'd have Ed Milliband as PM (although of course compared with what we've got now it would be a particularly sunny upland) and the Cons forever failing to win elections because of UKIP.

    As I said, compared with the shitshow of today, not the worst scenario in the world, but Dave knew just what he was doing when he promised a referendum.
  • logical_songlogical_song Posts: 6,334

    Barnesian said:

    Foxy said:

    This is all immensely tedious. Lets just sign up to CU now and be done with it. It's going to be the best deal possible, and probably always was going to be.

    I think we just have.

    Our position is now to stay in the CU as long as the EU finds that convenient.

    As you say, probably the best Deal that we could get.
    ... but is it in any way better than not leaving?
    Nope. It's worse. That's why the people should now have a vote on the specific proposal.
    The fundamental difference is that we're not part of the political structure of the EU. That might be good enough for many many people.
    How much will that small 'benefit' (i.e. not having any say in what gets decided) cost?
    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2018/may/22/brexit-vote-cost-uk-mark-carney-bank-of-england
  • BarnesianBarnesian Posts: 3,319
    edited June 7

    This is all immensely tedious. Lets just sign up to CU now and be done with it. It's going to be the best deal possible, and probably always was going to be.

    Remaining in the customs union but leaving the single market is daft as it is economically illiterate.

    So if we’re staying in one we might as stay in both.
    The EU legal text on the back-stop covers customs union and standards and regulations (i.e. single market issues). The UK proposal only deals with CU issues so is likely to be rejected, not on the customs union proposal, but on missing out on the SM issues. The story isn't over yet. The end point is staying in both.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 46,183
    Fenman said:

    Poundland to close stores and cut jobs. At long last. An economic consequence Brexit voters will understand. So long as someone explains it to them slowly.

    Are you sure about that ?
    I have seen no such news regarding this particular child co of Steinhoff.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 23,462
  • BarnesianBarnesian Posts: 3,319

    Barnesian said:

    Foxy said:

    This is all immensely tedious. Lets just sign up to CU now and be done with it. It's going to be the best deal possible, and probably always was going to be.

    I think we just have.

    Our position is now to stay in the CU as long as the EU finds that convenient.

    As you say, probably the best Deal that we could get.
    ... but is it in any way better than not leaving?
    Nope. It's worse. That's why the people should now have a vote on the specific proposal.
    The fundamental difference is that we're not part of the political structure of the EU. That might be good enough for many many people.
    It might. I can see the attraction. It might not. Let them decide.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 22,447
    As I said on the previous thread Sam Coates is wrong to say that this is supposed to be a binding text. It is supposed to be a negotiating position. The binding text is still to come.

    Having said that, as a negotiating position it makes your marzipan dildo look good. Who would accept this? What on earth does it mean? It is an agreement to agree unless they don't in which case, well, we work that out later.
  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 17,903
    TOPPING said:

    Sandpit said:

    felix said:

    fpt: The most amusing feature of the last 48 hours of shenanigans about Brexit is watching the pundits squirm that they haven't gotrd are reminiscent of Lord Adonis - and he has never recovered!

    Don’t forget James Chapman live Tweeting a mental breakdown last summer.

    There’s a group of Westminster Villagers that have been driven completely nuts by brexit.
    Yes that’s the cabinet and a lot of the Tory party.
    that would include yourself of course :-)
    I’m enjoying Brexit and looking forward to hard Brexit.

    It will bring long overdue austerity to the country, will be the perfect excuse to abolish working tax credits.
    well lets accept the conservatives have lost the plot.

    the whole Brexit exercise was totally avoidable and started with Dave not knowing why he wanted to be PM when he got there

    really this country has pissed the last twenty years away
    It was avoidable and now we'd have Ed Milliband as PM (although of course compared with what we've got now it would be a particularly sunny upland) and the Cons forever failing to win elections because of UKIP.

    As I said, compared with the shitshow of today, not the worst scenario in the world, but Dave knew just what he was doing when he promised a referendum.
    No that's simply refusing to understand why you lost support

    It started with the modernisers not knowing how to modernise. To win an election the conservatives needed a broad church that meant keeping the right of the party on board while winning centre ground votes.

    The numpties running it chased centre ground votes by pissing on their core supporters, telling them to fk off to ukip and then looked surprised when they did.

    Furthermore Cameron had little interest in life outside the SouthEast
  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 17,903
    rcs1000 said:
    Macron is going to tell Trump where to go

    Then they'll probably do the silly handshake thing and indulge in a bout of Greco-Roman wrestling

    Or Trump will do what he always does and declare victory
  • ralphmalphralphmalph Posts: 656
    Barnesian said:

    This is all immensely tedious. Lets just sign up to CU now and be done with it. It's going to be the best deal possible, and probably always was going to be.

    Remaining in the customs union but leaving the single market is daft as it is economically illiterate.

    So if we’re staying in one we might as stay in both.
    The EU legal text on the back-stop covers customs union and standards and regulations (i.e. single market issues). The UK proposal only deals with CU issues so is likely to be rejected, not on the customs union proposal, but on missing out on the SM issues. The story isn't over yet. The end point is staying in both.
    It will be basically impossible to stay in both. If the EU agreed it for the UK, Norway would want both, Poland would say we will have some of that.
    It is a non-starter as a position.
    You can have one but not both, both to the EU means full membership of the EU.
  • NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 11,043
    RobD said:



    I thought this was in lieu of a new agreement, or were the EU never serious about this?

    It is. But if we agree something I like as a backstop, and you then ask me for something else that I like less, I will politely decline and stick to the backstop. Consequently, it would be surprising if anything were now agreed that is not the backstop.

    The reason HMG had to agree a backstop is that the EU was unwilling to discuss anything further without it.
  • RobDRobD Posts: 34,016
    Barnesian said:

    RobD said:

    Foxy said:

    This is all immensely tedious. Lets just sign up to CU now and be done with it. It's going to be the best deal possible, and probably always was going to be.

    I think we just have.

    Our position is now to stay in the CU as long as the EU finds that convenient.

    As you say, probably the best Deal that we could get.
    I thought this was in lieu of a new agreement, or were the EU never serious about this?
    As you say, this is a backstop, in lieu of an agreement on avoiding a hard border in Ireland.

    The EU has tabled a serious proposal. The UK government has still not been able to agree within itself on a counter proposal. Who isn't being serious here?
    The EU have not tabled any proposals about a future treaty because of sequencing.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 14,887

    TOPPING said:

    Sandpit said:

    felix said:

    fpt: The most amusing feature of the last 48 hours of shenanigans about Brexit is watching the pundits squirm that they haven't gotrd are reminiscent of Lord Adonis - and he has never recovered!

    Don’t forget James Chapman live Tweeting a mental breakdown last summer.

    There’s a group of Westminster Villagers that have been driven completely nuts by brexit.
    Yes that’s the cabinet and a lot of the Tory party.
    that would include yourself of course :-)
    I’m enjoying Brexit and looking forward to hard Brexit.

    It will bring long overdue austerity to the country, will be the perfect excuse to abolish working tax credits.
    well le

    last twenty years away
    It was avoidable and now we'd have Ed Milliband as PM (although of course compared with what we've got now it would be a particularly sunny upland) and the Cons forever failing to win elections because of UKIP.

    As I said, compared with the shitshow of today, not the worst scenario in the world, but Dave knew just what he was doing when he promised a referendum.
    No that's simply refusing to understand why you lost support

    It started with the modernisers not knowing how to modernise. To win an election the conservatives needed a broad church that meant keeping the right of the party on board while winning centre ground votes.

    The numpties running it chased centre ground votes by pissing on their core supporters, telling them to fk off to ukip and then looked surprised when they did.

    Furthermore Cameron had little interest in life outside the SouthEast
    So now you are saying that UKIP weren't fruitcakes, loonies, and closet racists? Exactly - he was modernising the party. If that means people fk off to UKIP hoorah, quite frankly.

    I have a very good idea (short of @HYUFD's 100% certainty having interviewed every voter in the UK) why the referendum was lost - it was the classic: "what are you rebelling against? What have you got?"

    It gave people an opportunity to make a difference when previously they had felt marginalised. It gave people who were suffering from any number of things, primarily GFC-related, a chance to choose something that could hardly have made their lives any worse. It gave people the power that they felt had been denied them for so long.

    I am perfectly aware that a line that said: "modern, collaborative capitalism - not going to get you untrammelled riches, but the best we've got for the moment"....was not going to swing it.
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 45,566
    Good afternoon, everyone.

    If we end up in the single market and customs union, paying for the privilege of being governed by the foreign body the electorate voted to leave, the public will have nothing but contempt for the political class that has sold them down the river and denied the referendum result because the voters had the temerity to disagree with the consensus of the Westminster village.

    In happier news, there's a race this weekend, so that at least should provide some welcome distraction.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 23,462
    @Morris_Dancer

    "the public will have nothing but contempt for the political class"

    I bet you that whatever happens in the next five years, that will continue to be the case.
  • RobDRobD Posts: 34,016

    RobD said:



    I thought this was in lieu of a new agreement, or were the EU never serious about this?

    It is. But if we agree something I like as a backstop, and you then ask me for something else that I like less, I will politely decline and stick to the backstop. Consequently, it would be surprising if anything were now agreed that is not the backstop.

    The reason HMG had to agree a backstop is that the EU was unwilling to discuss anything further without it.
    So the EU were never serious about negotiating anything else?
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 23,462
    edited June 7

    rcs1000 said:
    Macron is going to tell Trump where to go

    Then they'll probably do the silly handshake thing and indulge in a bout of Greco-Roman wrestling

    Or Trump will do what he always does and declare victory
    Voluntary Export Restraints, as were agreed between Japan and the US in the 1980s, are the inevitable consequence of the current trade war.

    They allow Trump, as you say, to declare victory. While nothing really changes.
  • rpjsrpjs Posts: 1,084

    Barnesian said:

    This is all immensely tedious. Lets just sign up to CU now and be done with it. It's going to be the best deal possible, and probably always was going to be.

    Remaining in the customs union but leaving the single market is daft as it is economically illiterate.

    So if we’re staying in one we might as stay in both.
    The EU legal text on the back-stop covers customs union and standards and regulations (i.e. single market issues). The UK proposal only deals with CU issues so is likely to be rejected, not on the customs union proposal, but on missing out on the SM issues. The story isn't over yet. The end point is staying in both.
    It will be basically impossible to stay in both. If the EU agreed it for the UK, Norway would want both, Poland would say we will have some of that.
    It is a non-starter as a position.
    You can have one but not both, both to the EU means full membership of the EU.
    Then that is what will happen. We will not be leaving.
  • rpjsrpjs Posts: 1,084

    Good afternoon, everyone.

    If we end up in the single market and customs union, paying for the privilege of being governed by the foreign body the electorate voted to leave, the public will have nothing but contempt for the political class that has sold them down the river and denied the referendum result because the voters had the temerity to disagree with the consensus of the Westminster village.

    Or they'll have contempt for the numpties that promised them the moon on a stick, which, surprise!, turned out to be impossible to deliver.
  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 17,903
    TOPPING said:

    TOPPING said:

    Sandpit said:

    felix said:

    fpt: The most amusing feature of the last 48 hours of shenanigans about Brexit is watching the pundits squirm that they haven't gotrd are reminiscent of Lord Adonis - and he has never recovered!

    Don’t forget James Chapman live Tweeting a mental breakdown last summer.

    There’s a group of Westminster Villagers that have been driven completely nuts by brexit.
    Yes that’s the cabinet and a lot of the Tory party.
    that would include yourself of course :-)
    I’m enjoying Brexit and looking forward to hard Brexit.

    It will bring long overdue austerity to the country, will be the perfect excuse to abolish working tax credits.
    well le

    last twenty years away
    It was avoidable and now we'd have Ed Milliband as PM (although of course compared with what we've got now it would be a particularly sunny upland) and the Cons forever failing to win elections because of UKIP.

    As I said, compared with the shitshow of today, not the worst scenario in the world, but Dave knew just what he was doing when he promised a referendum.
    No that's simply refusing to undthe SouthEast
    So now you are saying that UKIP weren't fruitcakes, loonies, and closet racists? Exactly - he was modernising the party. If that means people fk off to UKIP hoorah, quite frankly.

    I have a very good idea (short of @HYUFD's 100% certainty having interviewed every voter in the UK) why the referendum was lost - it was the classic: "what are you rebelling against? What have you got?"

    It gave people an opportunity to make a difference when previously they had felt marginalised. It gave people who were suffering from any number of things, primarily GFC-related, a chance to choose something that could hardly have made their lives any worse. It gave people the power that they felt had been denied them for so long.

    I am perfectly aware that a line that said: "modern, collaborative capitalism - not going to get you untrammelled riches, but the best we've got for the moment"....was not going to swing it.
    In a nutshell that;s why the conservatives are all over the place, youre more interested in your internal squabbles than the electorate.

    Problem is there are more people in the electorate than there are in your party
  • RobDRobD Posts: 34,016
    rpjs said:

    Good afternoon, everyone.

    If we end up in the single market and customs union, paying for the privilege of being governed by the foreign body the electorate voted to leave, the public will have nothing but contempt for the political class that has sold them down the river and denied the referendum result because the voters had the temerity to disagree with the consensus of the Westminster village.

    Or they'll have contempt for the numpties that promised them the moon on a stick, which, surprise!, turned out to be impossible to deliver.
    Leaving the EU is impossible? So much for always sovereign!
  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 17,903
    rcs1000 said:

    rcs1000 said:
    Macron is going to tell Trump where to go

    Then they'll probably do the silly handshake thing and indulge in a bout of Greco-Roman wrestling

    Or Trump will do what he always does and declare victory
    Voluntary Export Restraints, as were agreed between Japan and the US in the 1980s, are the inevitable consequence of the current trade war.

    They allow Trump, as you say, to declare victory. While nothing really changes.
    well some things of course will be changing

    Trump has decided to be the cat among the pigeons and some of the pigeons risk losing feathers.
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 45,566
    Mr. 1000, ha, well, alright. But there are degrees of contempt.

    Mr. rpjs, I voted to leave the EU. If we can't leave the EU because the political class decides listening to the electorate is optional, that doesn't bode well for the future.

    Still very much an outside chance, but it's this kind of insanity that could see the far right rise, to match the far left capture of Labour (although that was due to the idiocy of Labour MPs).
  • BarnesianBarnesian Posts: 3,319

    Barnesian said:

    This is all immensely tedious. Lets just sign up to CU now and be done with it. It's going to be the best deal possible, and probably always was going to be.

    Remaining in the customs union but leaving the single market is daft as it is economically illiterate.

    So if we’re staying in one we might as stay in both.
    The EU legal text on the back-stop covers customs union and standards and regulations (i.e. single market issues). The UK proposal only deals with CU issues so is likely to be rejected, not on the customs union proposal, but on missing out on the SM issues. The story isn't over yet. The end point is staying in both.
    It will be basically impossible to stay in both. If the EU agreed it for the UK, Norway would want both, Poland would say we will have some of that.
    It is a non-starter as a position.
    You can have one but not both, both to the EU means full membership of the EU.
    Quite. As I said - the end point is staying in both.
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 45,566
    Mr. D, it's not a duck. It may walk like a duck, and quack like a duck, but it's actually a lesser spotted European water pigeon. Totally different species. Honest, guv.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 14,887
    edited June 7

    In a nutshell that;s why the conservatives are all over the place, youre more interested in your internal squabbles than the electorate.

    Problem is there are more people in the electorate than there are in your party

    I'm not at all interested in our internal squabbles. Where do I show that I am interested in the party squabbling internally (it is now, of course)?

    Modern capitalist societies are problematic. They give some people Porsches and others mini-metros (or did). People who live in tiny terraced houses can be found with fuck off Range Rovers parked outside because they have got them on the never never and everyone has one. Meanwhile, China is eating everyone's lunch as they were always going to do at some point and we are now near that point.

    The Conservatives used to be about balancing the competing desires of society, all within a sensible economic framework. But eventually, they couldn't fight those forces which mean that we now have 1bn competitors to manufacture goods that we used to manufacture on the one hand, and a society that is in transition to a higher value add producing one where not everyone will be able to be a winner, on the other.

    I didn't mention anything about the Conservative Party's internal squabbles.

    It's enough to make people socialist, which is another phenomenon that has been emerging in case you haven't noticed.
  • rpjsrpjs Posts: 1,084
    RobD said:

    rpjs said:

    Good afternoon, everyone.

    If we end up in the single market and customs union, paying for the privilege of being governed by the foreign body the electorate voted to leave, the public will have nothing but contempt for the political class that has sold them down the river and denied the referendum result because the voters had the temerity to disagree with the consensus of the Westminster village.

    Or they'll have contempt for the numpties that promised them the moon on a stick, which, surprise!, turned out to be impossible to deliver.
    Leaving the EU is impossible? So much for always sovereign!
    Leaving the EU is possible. Leaving it in a manner which does not destroy the British economy or threaten the integrity of the UK is the moon on a stick which is proving impossible to deliver.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 46,183
    rpjs said:

    Barnesian said:

    This is all immensely tedious. Lets just sign up to CU now and be done with it. It's going to be the best deal possible, and probably always was going to be.

    Remaining in the customs union but leaving the single market is daft as it is economically illiterate.

    So if we’re staying in one we might as stay in both.
    The EU legal text on the back-stop covers customs union and standards and regulations (i.e. single market issues). The UK proposal only deals with CU issues so is likely to be rejected, not on the customs union proposal, but on missing out on the SM issues. The story isn't over yet. The end point is staying in both.
    It will be basically impossible to stay in both. If the EU agreed it for the UK, Norway would want both, Poland would say we will have some of that.
    It is a non-starter as a position.
    You can have one but not both, both to the EU means full membership of the EU.
    Then that is what will happen. We will not be leaving.
    We're leaving the EU. There has been freedom of movement from Ireland/ the UK (Crucially Ireland is not in Schengen) since before we even joined the EU. So there can be restrictions on FoM. We won't have any MEPs, we won't be party to the EU's budget (Unless we agree to do so) - but we do have the divorce bill.

    We are leaving, but we will remain de facto in a CU. That is NOT the same as being part of the EU proper.
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 45,566
    As an aside, does the site feel this makes a second referendum more likely and, should said referendum occur, would option two (the first being to endorse whatever catastrophe May 'negotiates') be to remain, or to leave without a deal?
  • BarnesianBarnesian Posts: 3,319
    RobD said:

    Barnesian said:

    RobD said:

    Foxy said:

    This is all immensely tedious. Lets just sign up to CU now and be done with it. It's going to be the best deal possible, and probably always was going to be.

    I think we just have.

    Our position is now to stay in the CU as long as the EU finds that convenient.

    As you say, probably the best Deal that we could get.
    I thought this was in lieu of a new agreement, or were the EU never serious about this?
    As you say, this is a backstop, in lieu of an agreement on avoiding a hard border in Ireland.

    The EU has tabled a serious proposal. The UK government has still not been able to agree within itself on a counter proposal. Who isn't being serious here?
    The EU have not tabled any proposals about a future treaty because of sequencing.
    We were talking about who has put forward serious proposals about avoiding a hard border in Ireland. The EU has. The UK hasn't.

    But as you say, and as we all know, the EU have not tabled any proposals about a future treaty because of sequencing (which the UK agreed to).
  • RobDRobD Posts: 34,016
    rpjs said:

    RobD said:

    rpjs said:

    Good afternoon, everyone.

    If we end up in the single market and customs union, paying for the privilege of being governed by the foreign body the electorate voted to leave, the public will have nothing but contempt for the political class that has sold them down the river and denied the referendum result because the voters had the temerity to disagree with the consensus of the Westminster village.

    Or they'll have contempt for the numpties that promised them the moon on a stick, which, surprise!, turned out to be impossible to deliver.
    Leaving the EU is impossible? So much for always sovereign!
    Leaving the EU is possible. Leaving it in a manner which does not destroy the British economy or threaten the integrity of the UK is the moon on a stick which is proving impossible to deliver.
    Destroy the economy? Are you pitching for a job at the Treasury or something?
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 46,183
    So much wishful thinking in this thread. On both sides.
  • CD13CD13 Posts: 4,716
    Cameron was a good politician, but from me that's not a compliment. When the going got tough, like brave Sir Robin, he ran away, as did George.

    As I've mentioned before, when the BBC ran Question Time from Boston just before the referendum and managed to unearth an audience with a large majority of Remainers, I began to doubt myself.

    I need not have bothered, they were the ones out of touch. that's why the result came like a thunderbolt to the 'great and the good'.

    Mr Eagles, you'll really have to chill out. There's no point grieving for the EU, it is no more, it is pushing up the daisies etc. We voted to leave and that decision reassured me I was talking to real people.

    They're quiet for now, uninterested in the political shenanigans going on. They have a life to get on with and obsessing over the EU isn't one of their priorities. However, if BINO should occur, the anger will erupt again. And many in Labour realise this.

    You can tease all you like, but we won, and democracy won.


  • brendan16brendan16 Posts: 1,292
    edited June 7
    Fenman said:

    Poundland to close stores and cut jobs. At long last. An economic consequence Brexit voters will understand. So long as someone explains it to them slowly.

    Nothing to do with sky high rents and business rates and continuing to integrate the 99p store chain which it overlapped with in many locations it bought a couple of years ago - no people have stopped buying cheap products for £1 due to Brexit?!!

    It's never the management's fault anymore or the way they run the business of course when a business retrenches or consolidates.

  • Richard_TyndallRichard_Tyndall Posts: 15,212
    I suspect this latest initiative will be rejected by the EU just like all he earlier ones. They have never had any interest in negotiation which is something the UK side should have realised long ago.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 46,183
    brendan16 said:

    Fenman said:

    Poundland to close stores and cut jobs. At long last. An economic consequence Brexit voters will understand. So long as someone explains it to them slowly.

    Nothing to do with sky high rents and business rates and continuing to integrate the 99p store chain which it overlapped with in many locations it bought a couple of years ago - no people have stopped buying cheap products for £1 due to Brexit?!!

    It's never the management's fault anymore or the way they run the business of course.
    Sorry but I've heard nothing about Poundland having any difficulties whatsoever. Can you point me in the direction of a news report ?
  • RobDRobD Posts: 34,016
    edited June 7
    Barnesian said:

    RobD said:

    Barnesian said:

    RobD said:

    Foxy said:

    This is all immensely tedious. Lets just sign up to CU now and be done with it. It's going to be the best deal possible, and probably always was going to be.

    I think we just have.

    Our position is now to stay in the CU as long as the EU finds that convenient.

    As you say, probably the best Deal that we could get.
    I thought this was in lieu of a new agreement, or were the EU never serious about this?
    As you say, this is a backstop, in lieu of an agreement on avoiding a hard border in Ireland.

    The EU has tabled a serious proposal. The UK government has still not been able to agree within itself on a counter proposal. Who isn't being serious here?
    The EU have not tabled any proposals about a future treaty because of sequencing.
    We were talking about who has put forward serious proposals about avoiding a hard border in Ireland. The EU has. The UK hasn't.

    But as you say, and as we all know, the EU have not tabled any proposals about a future treaty because of sequencing (which the UK agreed to).
    Perhaps they could spend some time focusing on options A or B then? All this time and energy wasted on a what if scenario. It’s almost as if the EU doesn’t want to negotiate anything else.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 16,994
    Anorak said:
    Why watch Tracey Ulman to get comedy? When you've got a wall-to-wall, 24 hour jokeathon running, previously known as Her Majesty's Government.
  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 17,903
    TOPPING said:

    In a nutshell that;s why the conservatives are all over the place, youre more interested in your internal squabbles than the electorate.

    Problem is there are more people in the electorate than there are in your party

    I'm not at all interested in our internal squabbles. Where do I show that I am interested in the party squabbling internally (it is now, of course)?

    Modern capitalist societies are problematic. They give some people Porsches and others mini-metros (or did). People who live in tiny terraced houses can be found with fuck off Range Rovers parked outside because they have got them on the never never and everyone has one. Meanwhile, China is eating everyone's lunch as they were always going to do at some point and we are now near that point.

    The Conservatives used to be about balancing the competing desires of society, all within a sensible economic framework. But eventually, they couldn't fight those forces which mean that we now have 1bn competitors to manufacture goods that we used to manufacture on the one hand, and a society that is in transition to a higher value add producing one where not everyone will be able to be a winner, on the other.

    I didn't mention anything about the Conservative Party's internal squabbles.

    It's enough to make people socialist, which is another phenomenon that has been emerging in case you haven't noticed.
    How on earth is UK society aiming to transition to higher value added when the whole premise of UK business is to demand cheap labour ?

    There was a time when we used to target a high wage high skill workforce, even the TUs don't do that much more.

  • rpjsrpjs Posts: 1,084

    As an aside, does the site feel this makes a second referendum more likely and, should said referendum occur, would option two (the first being to endorse whatever catastrophe May 'negotiates') be to remain, or to leave without a deal?

    Can't we have three options, Deal, Remain or WTO and decide the result by A********** V***?
  • RobDRobD Posts: 34,016
    Pulpstar said:

    brendan16 said:

    Fenman said:

    Poundland to close stores and cut jobs. At long last. An economic consequence Brexit voters will understand. So long as someone explains it to them slowly.

    Nothing to do with sky high rents and business rates and continuing to integrate the 99p store chain which it overlapped with in many locations it bought a couple of years ago - no people have stopped buying cheap products for £1 due to Brexit?!!

    It's never the management's fault anymore or the way they run the business of course.
    Sorry but I've heard nothing about Poundland having any difficulties whatsoever. Can you point me in the direction of a news report ?
    Perhaps brendan is not a fan of House of Fraser? :p
  • rpjsrpjs Posts: 1,084
    edited June 7

    I suspect this latest initiative will be rejected by the EU just like all he earlier ones. They have never had any interest in negotiation which is something the UK side should have realised long ago.

    s/negotiating/compromising their core principles/

    FTFY
  • PeterMannionPeterMannion Posts: 287
    CD13 said:

    Cameron was a good politician, but from me that's not a compliment. When the going got tough, like brave Sir Robin, he ran away, as did George.

    As I've mentioned before, when the BBC ran Question Time from Boston just before the referendum and managed to unearth an audience with a large majority of Remainers, I began to doubt myself.

    I need not have bothered, they were the ones out of touch. that's why the result came like a thunderbolt to the 'great and the good'.

    Mr Eagles, you'll really have to chill out. There's no point grieving for the EU, it is no more, it is pushing up the daisies etc. We voted to leave and that decision reassured me I was talking to real people.

    They're quiet for now, uninterested in the political shenanigans going on. They have a life to get on with and obsessing over the EU isn't one of their priorities. However, if BINO should occur, the anger will erupt again. And many in Labour realise this.

    You can tease all you like, but we won, and democracy won.


    "They have a life to get on with and obsessing over the EU isn't one of their priorities."

    Roflcopter

    Look forward to the BINO anger eruption
  • Richard_TyndallRichard_Tyndall Posts: 15,212
    Pulpstar said:

    brendan16 said:

    Fenman said:

    Poundland to close stores and cut jobs. At long last. An economic consequence Brexit voters will understand. So long as someone explains it to them slowly.

    Nothing to do with sky high rents and business rates and continuing to integrate the 99p store chain which it overlapped with in many locations it bought a couple of years ago - no people have stopped buying cheap products for £1 due to Brexit?!!

    It's never the management's fault anymore or the way they run the business of course.
    Sorry but I've heard nothing about Poundland having any difficulties whatsoever. Can you point me in the direction of a news report ?
    https://www.ft.com/content/12a4a81a-3393-11e6-bda0-04585c31b153

    https://www.tutor2u.net/business/blog/problems-at-poundland

    Look at that share price drop in the second link.
  • Dura_AceDura_Ace Posts: 2,204
    I never really considered in depth what would happen with Brexit because I never thought the coalition of the elderly and permanently bewildered would be enough to swing it for Leave. However, I would never have dreamt we’d have this turgid slide into surreal chaos with once serious politicians arguing the toss between ‘a’ and ‘the’. Fuck me.
  • RobDRobD Posts: 34,016
    rpjs said:

    I suspect this latest initiative will be rejected by the EU just like all he earlier ones. They have never had any interest in negotiation which is something the UK side should have realised long ago.

    s/negotiating/compromising their core principles/

    FTFY
    Isn’t that what negotiation is? It isn’t as if EU law is some absolute that cannot be changed.
  • Richard_TyndallRichard_Tyndall Posts: 15,212
    rpjs said:

    I suspect this latest initiative will be rejected by the EU just like all he earlier ones. They have never had any interest in negotiation which is something the UK side should have realised long ago.

    s/negotiating/compromising their core principles/

    FTFY
    Like so much of what you write that is actually unintelligible.
  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 17,903
    Dura_Ace said:

    I never really considered in depth what would happen with Brexit because I never thought the coalition of the elderly and permanently bewildered would be enough to swing it for Leave. However, I would never have dreamt we’d have this turgid slide into surreal chaos with once serious politicians arguing the toss between ‘a’ and ‘the’. Fuck me.

    they just have

    lie back and have a cigarette
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 45,566
    Mr. rpjs, cooler, six weeks.

    Mr. Pulpstar, isn't it a different discount chain? Poundworld or suchlike?

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-44398352
  • rpjsrpjs Posts: 1,084

    rpjs said:

    I suspect this latest initiative will be rejected by the EU just like all he earlier ones. They have never had any interest in negotiation which is something the UK side should have realised long ago.

    s/negotiating/compromising their core principles/

    FTFY
    Like so much of what you write that is actually unintelligible.
    Sorry, most of the forums I hang around have a larger proportion of coders than I guess PB has.
  • RobDRobD Posts: 34,016

    rpjs said:

    I suspect this latest initiative will be rejected by the EU just like all he earlier ones. They have never had any interest in negotiation which is something the UK side should have realised long ago.

    s/negotiating/compromising their core principles/

    FTFY
    Like so much of what you write that is actually unintelligible.
    I read it as a ‘vi’ search/replace command.
  • CD13CD13 Posts: 4,716
    Mr Tyndall,

    "They have never had any interest in negotiation which is something the UK side should have realised long ago."

    They may well intend to negotiate, they may even try, but a committee of 27 pulling in different directions means they won't be able to. In any event, giving deadlines to bureaucrats means no decision would be possible until the day before anyway.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 46,183

    Pulpstar said:

    brendan16 said:

    Fenman said:

    Poundland to close stores and cut jobs. At long last. An economic consequence Brexit voters will understand. So long as someone explains it to them slowly.

    Nothing to do with sky high rents and business rates and continuing to integrate the 99p store chain which it overlapped with in many locations it bought a couple of years ago - no people have stopped buying cheap products for £1 due to Brexit?!!

    It's never the management's fault anymore or the way they run the business of course.
    Sorry but I've heard nothing about Poundland having any difficulties whatsoever. Can you point me in the direction of a news report ?
    https://www.ft.com/content/12a4a81a-3393-11e6-bda0-04585c31b153

    https://www.tutor2u.net/business/blog/problems-at-poundland

    Look at that share price drop in the second link.
    Richard, those are articles from 2015 and 2016.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 14,887

    TOPPING said:

    In a nutshell that;s why the conservatives are all over the place, youre more interested in your internal squabbles than the electorate.

    Problem is there are more people in the electorate than there are in your party

    I'm not at all interested in our internal squabbles. Where do I show that I am interested in the party squabbling internally (it is now, of course)?

    Modern capitalist societies are problematic. They give some people Porsches and others mini-metros (or did). People who live in tiny terraced houses can be found with fuck off Range Rovers parked outside because they have got them on the never never and everyone has one. Meanwhile, China is eating everyone's lunch as they were always going to do at some point and we are now near that point.

    The Conservatives used to be about balancing the competing desires of society, all within a sensible economic framework. But eventually, they couldn't fight those forces which mean that we now have 1bn competitors to manufacture goods that we used to manufacture on the one hand, and a society that is in transition to a higher value add producing one where not everyone will be able to be a winner, on the other.

    I didn't mention anything about the Conservative Party's internal squabbles.

    It's enough to make people socialist, which is another phenomenon that has been emerging in case you haven't noticed.
    How on earth is UK society aiming to transition to higher value added when the whole premise of UK business is to demand cheap labour ?

    There was a time when we used to target a high wage high skill workforce, even the TUs don't do that much more.

    It's chalk and apples, Alan. Starbucks having baristas from Portugal doesn't impact the build out of technology parks in Cambridge. Except for the fact that Starbucks might open a new branch there.

    Anecdata has it in any case that British people don't necessarily want to work in Starbucks (I'm none too sure but I did have a friend who opened a coffee shop near Drury Lane and received 100 applications to work there, one of which was from a Brit - anecdata as I said) but they sure as hell should aspire to working in Cambridge Science Centre.
  • ralphmalphralphmalph Posts: 656
    Barnesian said:

    RobD said:

    Barnesian said:

    RobD said:

    Foxy said:

    This is all immensely tedious. Lets just sign up to CU now and be done with it. It's going to be the best deal possible, and probably always was going to be.

    I think we just have.

    Our position is now to stay in the CU as long as the EU finds that convenient.

    As you say, probably the best Deal that we could get.
    I thought this was in lieu of a new agreement, or were the EU never serious about this?
    As you say, this is a backstop, in lieu of an agreement on avoiding a hard border in Ireland.

    The EU has tabled a serious proposal. The UK government has still not been able to agree within itself on a counter proposal. Who isn't being serious here?
    The EU have not tabled any proposals about a future treaty because of sequencing.
    We were talking about who has put forward serious proposals about avoiding a hard border in Ireland. The EU has. The UK hasn't.

    But as you say, and as we all know, the EU have not tabled any proposals about a future treaty because of sequencing (which the UK agreed to).
    No the EU has not put forward any proposals to solve the Irish border, all they have said is you caused the problem you solve it to the UK. It is the UK putting forward proposals and the EU rejecting them.
    What the EU has done and they have broken their rules here is say "we do not want a hard border so in the case of no agreed solution we offer a backstop. The backstop is that NI and NI only not any other part of the UK will remain in the CU and the SM." How they achieve this legally they have not said. But the key point is they have repeated and repeated that it is NI only.
    T May and her advisers took this and translated it to "if we submit enough proposals then they will say yes to the UK staying in the SM and CU as part of the backstop."
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 46,183

    Mr. rpjs, cooler, six weeks.

    Mr. Pulpstar, isn't it a different discount chain? Poundworld or suchlike?

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-44398352

    Well yes Poundworld is in trouble, but that is not Poundland.
  • DecrepitJohnLDecrepitJohnL Posts: 9,313

    Pulpstar said:

    brendan16 said:

    Fenman said:

    Poundland to close stores and cut jobs. At long last. An economic consequence Brexit voters will understand. So long as someone explains it to them slowly.

    Nothing to do with sky high rents and business rates and continuing to integrate the 99p store chain which it overlapped with in many locations it bought a couple of years ago - no people have stopped buying cheap products for £1 due to Brexit?!!

    It's never the management's fault anymore or the way they run the business of course.
    Sorry but I've heard nothing about Poundland having any difficulties whatsoever. Can you point me in the direction of a news report ?
    https://www.ft.com/content/12a4a81a-3393-11e6-bda0-04585c31b153

    https://www.tutor2u.net/business/blog/problems-at-poundland

    Look at that share price drop in the second link.
    Look at the date -- 2015. I think the pb liberal metropolitan elite are mixing up Poundland and Poundworld which is in the news this week.
  • CD13CD13 Posts: 4,716
    Mr Mannion,

    "Look forward to the BINO anger eruption."

    It won't happen because BINO won't happen, because politicians have a keen sense of their own survival. Only the media fool themselves completely. Like the Spanish Inquisition, they never expected Brexit.
  • NormNorm Posts: 861
    CD13 said:

    Mr Mannion,

    "Look forward to the BINO anger eruption."

    It won't happen because BINO won't happen, because politicians have a keen sense of their own survival. Only the media fool themselves completely. Like the Spanish Inquisition, they never expected Brexit.

    BINO is also a ridiculous expression because there is no such thing.
  • rpjsrpjs Posts: 1,084

    rpjs said:

    I suspect this latest initiative will be rejected by the EU just like all he earlier ones. They have never had any interest in negotiation which is something the UK side should have realised long ago.

    s/negotiating/compromising their core principles/

    FTFY
    Like so much of what you write that is actually unintelligible.
    Negotiation usually involves both parties having some, well I suppose you could call them "red lines" or "backstops" which they are not willing to compromise on. In the EU's case it involves not agreeing to us cherry-picking things we'd like to retain from membership. I don't think wanting to maintain the principle that being a member of the EU gives privileges over not being a member is that unreasonable of them. otherwise what is the point of the EU?
  • Stark_DawningStark_Dawning Posts: 3,684

    rpjs said:

    I suspect this latest initiative will be rejected by the EU just like all he earlier ones. They have never had any interest in negotiation which is something the UK side should have realised long ago.

    s/negotiating/compromising their core principles/

    FTFY
    Like so much of what you write that is actually unintelligible.
    Not a SED scripter then.
  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 17,903
    TOPPING said:

    TOPPING said:

    In a nutshell that;s why the conservatives are all over the place, youre more interested in your internal squabbles than the electorate.

    Problem is there are more people in the electorate than there are in your party

    I'm not at all interested in our internal squabbles. Where do I show that I am interested in the party squabbling internally (it is now, of course)?

    Modern capitalist societies are problematic. They gi.

    I didn't mention anything about the Conservative Party's internal squabbles.

    It's enough to make people socialist, which is another phenomenon that has been emerging in case you haven't noticed.
    How on earth is UK society aiming to transition to higher value added when the whole premise of UK business is to demand cheap labour ?

    There was a time when we used to target a high wage high skill workforce, even the TUs don't do that much more.

    It's chalk and apples, Alan. Starbucks having baristas from Portugal doesn't impact the build out of technology parks in Cambridge. Except for the fact that Starbucks might open a new branch there.

    Anecdata has it in any case that British people don't necessarily want to work in Starbucks (I'm none too sure but I did have a friend who opened a coffee shop near Drury Lane and received 100 applications to work there, one of which was from a Brit - anecdata as I said) but they sure as hell should aspire to working in Cambridge Science Centre.
    It's nonsense Mr T.

    The biggest issue we will face is having too many people once next generation automation gets going. Manufacturing will lose lots of jobs to robotics, professional services too. We don't need cheap labour we need skilled people able to interface with machinery and other people.

    That's not what any of the political parties is offering atm
This discussion has been closed.