It depends what you mean by accepted. Roughly a third of the population are putting on their Union Jack cufflinks and polishing their jackboots in anticipation of the great day of liberation. Roughly a third are going with the flow whatever their private feelings. And roughly a third are watching events with the same mounting sense of horror that you get when watching a multi-car pile-up on the other carriageway that you’re helpless to prevent.
Ludicrous.
Remainers need to grapple with the fact that the social class AB was the only class to vote remain.
Once they have understood that, and understood why, then they might comprehend a little more about the country they live in.
Clearly, some Remainers ("a third of the population are putting on Union Jack cufflinks") live in a remote & fantastical world.
Leavers need to grapple with the fact that 48% voted to Remain and at present at best Leave is level pegging on whether it’s a good idea.
Once they have understood that they might comprehend a little more about the country they are living in.
PS Kudos to you for being the only Leaver to grapple with the awkward story that Russia was far more deeply involved with Leave.EU than had previously been made public. I have to say I wasn’t expecting the defence “I for one welcome our new Kremlin overlords”, but it’s a view I suppose.
chortle
remain lost the vote because they didn't understand their own country
Leave won because they knew there were unsavoury elements in their own country and they pandered to them.
I don't recall leave pandering to international bankers
If you don't like Brexit, don't blame Russia -- blame yourself (for failing to inspire the British population to vote Remain, for failing to share the benefits of the EU more widely).
Blaming Russia is shorthand for not taking responsibility for your own actions, or your own country's actions.
That almost completely misses the point. See the times article above.
Trump is what Russia wanted. The important question is why?
Brexit is what Russia wanted. The important question is why?
If a foreign power wants something (bad) to happen in your country, it's not xenophobic to question the motives of those who share that view.
Euroscepticism predates Putin.
Would you be so blasé about Putin interfering in a UK general election to help Corbyn?
As regards Russia, I am not a Russophobe, I am not a xenophobe. I have many academic friends from Russia in this country and in the US who have suffered harassment from the Russian-haters.
If you don't like Trump, don't blame Russia -- blame the American people, who voted for Trump.
If you don't like Brexit, don't blame Russia -- blame yourself (for failing to inspire the British population to vote Remain, for failing to share the benefits of the EU more widely).
Blaming Russia is shorthand for not taking responsibility for your own actions, or your own country's actions.
It is no different from blaming foreigners. It is no different from xenophobia.
You completely misunderstand my views on Russia. It was obvious well before the referendum that Russia was campaigning heavily for a Leave vote. I do not regard anything in the news recently as doing more than joining the dots. I don't like what it does but as Stan Laurel said, you can lead a horse to water but a pencil must be lead.
What makes Russia interesting is the wilful refusal by any Leavers to address why Russia wanted Brexit so badly, to see that their actions have encouraged one of the most disruptive and dangerous states in the world to become still more disruptive and dangerous and to acknowledge that they have enabled that.
You could have heard a pin drop on here among Leavers when the subject came up again at the weekend.
You repeatedly use Russia when you mean Putin.
There is a growing and hysterical anti-Russian climate in the US amongst the illiberal fascists who like to blame others. My Russian academic friends are experiencing it daily. You are helping to create this climate of xenophobia here.
If you regret the Brexit decision, there are many people to blame.
Somewhere, way, way, way down the list is the unpleasant Vladimir Putin. But, I think you could probably start much, much closer to home.
I repeatedly use Russia when I mean the Russian government. It's a normal usage in English.
Rwy'n defnyddio Rwsia dro ar ôl tro pan fyddaf yn golygu llywodraeth Rwsia. Mae'n ddefnydd arferol yn Saesneg.
Mr. 86, whilst we shouldn't ignore Russian disinformation and propaganda campaigns, the catastrophically bad Conservative manifesto/campaign was clearly the prime mover of the polls.
It depends what you mean by accepted. Roughly a third of the population are putting on their Union Jack cufflinks and polishing their jackboots in anticipation of the great day of liberation. Roughly a third are going with the flow whatever their private feelings. And roughly a third are watching events with the same mounting sense of horror that you get when watching a multi-car pile-up on the other carriageway that you’re helpless to prevent.
Ludicrous.
Remainers need to grapple with the fact that the social class AB was the only class to vote remain.
Once they have understood that, and understood why, then they might comprehend a little more about the country they live in.
Clearly, some Remainers ("a third of the population are putting on Union Jack cufflinks") live in a remote & fantastical world.
Leavers need to grapple with the fact that 48% voted to Remain and at present at best Leave is level pegging on whether it’s a good idea.
Once they have understood that they might comprehend a little more about the country they are living in.
PS Kudos to you for being the only Leaver to grapple with the awkward story that Russia was far more deeply involved with Leave.EU than had previously been made public. I have to say I wasn’t expecting the defence “I for one welcome our new Kremlin overlords”, but it’s a view I suppose.
chortle
remain lost the vote because they didn't understand their own country
Leave won because they knew there were unsavoury elements in their own country and they pandered to them.
It depends what you mean by accepted. Roughly a third of the population are putting on their Union Jack cufflinks and polishing their jackboots in anticipation of the great day of liberation. Roughly a third are going with the flow whatever their private feelings. And roughly a third are watching events with the same mounting sense of horror that you get when watching a multi-car pile-up on the other carriageway that you’re helpless to prevent.
Ludicrous.
Remainers need to grapple with the fact that the social class AB was the only class to vote remain.
Once they have understood that, and understood why, then they might comprehend a little more about the country they live in.
Clearly, some Remainers ("a third of the population are putting on Union Jack cufflinks") live in a remote & fantastical world.
Leavers need to grapple with the fact that 48% voted to Remain and at present at best Leave is level pegging on whether it’s a good idea.
Once they have understood that they might comprehend a little more about the country they are living in.
PS Kudos to you for being the only Leaver to grapple with the awkward story that Russia was far more deeply involved with Leave.EU than had previously been made public. I have to say I wasn’t expecting the defence “I for one welcome our new Kremlin overlords”, but it’s a view I suppose.
chortle
remain lost the vote because they didn't understand their own country
Leave won because they knew there were unsavoury elements in their own country and they pandered to them.
I don't recall leave pandering to international bankers
Yes very droll. Leave pandered to the racists and xenophobes. And you lot may deny, bluster, shout, insult (and you do all of those things, sometimes twice, if you're @SeanT), but them's the unpalatable facts.
No doubt Putin wanted Brexit, but to think the russians were involved in some sort of brain washing technique that was beyond the ken of the 'remain' campaign is a stretch to be frank.
If you don't like Brexit, don't blame Russia -- blame yourself (for failing to inspire the British population to vote Remain, for failing to share the benefits of the EU more widely).
Blaming Russia is shorthand for not taking responsibility for your own actions, or your own country's actions.
That almost completely misses the point. See the times article above.
Trump is what Russia wanted. The important question is why?
Brexit is what Russia wanted. The important question is why?
If a foreign power wants something (bad) to happen in your country, it's not xenophobic to question the motives of those who share that view.
Euroscepticism predates Putin.
Would you be so blasé about Putin interfering in a UK general election to help Corbyn?
As regards Russia, I am not a Russophobe, I am not a xenophobe. I have many academic friends from Russia in this country and in the US who have suffered harassment from the Russian-haters.
If you don't like Trump, don't blame Russia -- blame the American people, who voted for Trump.
If you don't like Brexit, don't blame Russia -- blame yourself (for failing to inspire the British population to vote Remain, for failing to share the benefits of the EU more widely).
Blaming Russia is shorthand for not taking responsibility for your own actions, or your own country's actions.
It is no different from blaming foreigners. It is no different from xenophobia.
You completely misunderstand my views on Russia. It was obvious well before the referendum that Russia was campaigning heavily for a Leave vote. I do not regard anything in the news recently as doing more than joining the dots. I don't like what it does but as Stan Laurel said, you can lead a horse to water but a pencil must be lead.
What makes Russia interesting is the wilful refusal by any Leavers to address why Russia wanted Brexit so badly, to see that their actions have encouraged one of the most disruptive and dangerous states in the world to become still more disruptive and dangerous and to acknowledge that they have enabled that.
You could have heard a pin drop on here among Leavers when the subject came up again at the weekend.
You repeatedly use Russia when you mean Putin.
There is a growing and hysterical anti-Russian climate in the US amongst the illiberal fascists who like to blame others. My Russian academic friends are experiencing it daily. You are helping to create this climate of xenophobia here.
If you regret the Brexit decision, there are many people to blame.
Somewhere, way, way, way down the list is the unpleasant Vladimir Putin. But, I think you could probably start much, much closer to home.
I repeatedly use Russia when I mean the Russian government. It's a normal usage in English.
Rwy'n defnyddio Rwsia dro ar ôl tro pan fyddaf yn golygu llywodraeth Rwsia. Mae'n ddefnydd arferol yn Saesneg.
It depends what you mean by accepted. Roughly a third of the population are putting on their Union Jack cufflinks and polishing their jackboots in anticipation of the great day of liberation. Roughly a third are going with the flow whatever their private feelings. And roughly a third are watching events with the same mounting sense of horror that you get when watching a multi-car pile-up on the other carriageway that you’re helpless to prevent.
Ludicrous.
Remainers need to grapple with the fact that the social class AB was the only class to vote remain.
Once they have understood that, and understood why, then they might comprehend a little more about the country they live in.
Clearly, some Remainers ("a third of the population are putting on Union Jack cufflinks") live in a remote & fantastical world.
Leavers need to grapple with the fact that 48% voted to Remain and at present at best Leave is level pegging on whether it’s a good idea.
Once they have understood that they might comprehend a little more about the country they are living in.
PS Kudos to you for being the only Leaver to grapple with the awkward story that Russia was far more deeply involved with Leave.EU than had previously been made public. I have to say I wasn’t expecting the defence “I for one welcome our new Kremlin overlords”, but it’s a view I suppose.
chortle
remain lost the vote because they didn't understand their own country
Leave won because they knew there were unsavoury elements in their own country and they pandered to them.
I don't recall leave pandering to international bankers
Yes very droll. Leave pandered to the racists and xenophobes. And you lot may deny, bluster, shout, insult (and you do all of those things, sometimes twice, if you're @SeanT), but them's the unpalatable facts.
But before the referendum we were told there weren't enough of those types of people to get 50% of the vote.
If you don't like Brexit, don't blame Russia -- blame yourself (for failing to inspire the British population to vote Remain, for failing to share the benefits of the EU more widely).
Blaming Russia is shorthand for not taking responsibility for your own actions, or your own country's actions.
That almost completely misses the point. See the times article above.
Trump is what Russia wanted. The important question is why?
Brexit is what Russia wanted. The important question is why?
If a foreign power wants something (bad) to happen in your country, it's not xenophobic to question the motives of those who share that view.
Euroscepticism predates Putin.
Would you be so blasé about Putin interfering in a UK general election to help Corbyn?
It depends what you mean by accepted. Roughly a third of the population are putting on their Union Jack cufflinks and polishing their jackboots in anticipation of the great day of liberation. Roughly a third are going with the flow whatever their private feelings. And roughly a third are watching events with the same mounting sense of horror that you get when watching a multi-car pile-up on the other carriageway that you’re helpless to prevent.
Ludicrous.
Remainers need to grapple with the fact that the social class AB was the only class to vote remain.
Once they have understood that, and understood why, then they might comprehend a little more about the country they live in.
Clearly, some Remainers ("a third of the population are putting on Union Jack cufflinks") live in a remote & fantastical world.
Leavers need to grapple with the fact that 48% voted to Remain and at present at best Leave is level pegging on whether it’s a good idea.
Once they have understood that they might comprehend a little more about the country they are living in.
PS Kudos to you for being the only Leaver to grapple with the awkward story that Russia was far more deeply involved with Leave.EU than had previously been made public. I have to say I wasn’t expecting the defence “I for one welcome our new Kremlin overlords”, but it’s a view I suppose.
chortle
remain lost the vote because they didn't understand their own country
Leave won because they knew there were unsavoury elements in their own country and they pandered to them.
I don't recall leave pandering to international bankers
Yes very droll. Leave pandered to the racists and xenophobes. And you lot may deny, bluster, shout, insult (and you do all of those things, sometimes twice, if you're @SeanT), but them's the unpalatable facts.
But before the referendum we were told there weren't enough of those types of people to get 50% of the vote.
Huh? I don't think 50% of the UK is racist or xenophobic, but there is a non-trivial number who were motivated by elements of the Leave campaign.
It depends what you mean by accepted. Roughly a third of the population are putting on their Union Jack cufflinks and polishing their jackboots in anticipation of the great day of liberation. Roughly a third are going with the flow whatever their private feelings. And roughly a third are watching events with the same mounting sense of horror that you get when watching a multi-car pile-up on the other carriageway that you’re helpless to prevent.
Ludicrous.
Remainers need to grapple with the fact that the social class AB was the only class to vote remain.
Once they have understood that, and understood why, then they might comprehend a little more about the country they live in.
Clearly, some Remainers ("a third of the population are putting on Union Jack cufflinks") live in a remote & fantastical world.
Leavers need to grapple with the fact that 48% voted to Remain and at present at best Leave is level pegging on whether it’s a good idea.
Once they have understood that they might comprehend a little more about the country they are living in.
PS Kudos to you for being the only Leaver to grapple with the awkward story that Russia was far more deeply involved with Leave.EU than had previously been made public. I have to say I wasn’t expecting the defence “I for one welcome our new Kremlin overlords”, but it’s a view I suppose.
chortle
remain lost the vote because they didn't understand their own country
Leave won because they knew there were unsavoury elements in their own country and they pandered to them.
I don't recall leave pandering to international bankers
Yes very droll. Leave pandered to the racists and xenophobes. And you lot may deny, bluster, shout, insult (and you do all of those things, sometimes twice, if you're @SeanT), but them's the unpalatable facts.
ah the xenophobe bluster
are you happy staying in an EU which has Italy and Malta as members ? Or Mrs Merkel who is now quietly trying to turf out all those immigrants she invited in ?
It depends what you mean by accepted. Roughly a third of the population are putting on their Union Jack cufflinks and polishing their jackboots in anticipation of the great day of liberation. Roughly a third are going with the flow whatever their private feelings. And roughly a third are watching events with the same mounting sense of horror that you get when watching a multi-car pile-up on the other carriageway that you’re helpless to prevent.
Ludicrous.
Remainers need to grapple with the fact that the social class AB was the only class to vote remain.
Once they have understood that, and understood why, then they might comprehend a little more about the country they live in.
Clearly, some Remainers ("a third of the population are putting on Union Jack cufflinks") live in a remote & fantastical world.
Leavers need to grapple with the fact that 48% voted to Remain and at present at best Leave is level pegging on whether it’s a good idea.
Once they have understood that they might comprehend a little more about the country they are living in.
PS Kudos to you for being the only Leaver to grapple with the awkward story that Russia was far more deeply involved with Leave.EU than had previously been made public. I have to say I wasn’t expecting the defence “I for one welcome our new Kremlin overlords”, but it’s a view I suppose.
chortle
remain lost the vote because they didn't understand their own country
Leave won because they knew there were unsavoury elements in their own country and they pandered to them.
I don't recall leave pandering to international bankers
Yes very droll. Leave pandered to the racists and xenophobes. And you lot may deny, bluster, shout, insult (and you do all of those things, sometimes twice, if you're @SeanT), but them's the unpalatable facts.
ah the xenophobe bluster
are you happy staying in an EU which has Italy and Malta as members ? Or Mrs Merkel who is now quietly trying to turf out all those immigrants she invited in ?
Er, yes to the Italy and Malta question. And re. Mrs Merkel, she is battling with huge geopolitical forces and sometimes getting it right and sometimes getting it wrong. I don't see what that has got to do with the EU as an institution. And all those in your mind malign forces will continue to be our neighbours whatever flavour of Brexit we get.
Also I don't think the chief instigators and architects from the remain camp can complain too much about xenophobia and lieing, I for one ruled out voting Tory in 2015 immediately after seeing this poster in Broxtowe:
Did Russia try and influence the last US election and Brexit ? Yeah, probably.
Have western intelligence services been manipulating and secretly funding foreign elections to try and get governments friendly to their aims at least since the 2nd World War? Absolutely.
It depends what you mean by accepted. Roughly a third of the population are putting on their Union Jack cufflinks and polishing their jackboots in anticipation of the great day of liberation. Roughly a third are going with the flow whatever their private feelings. And roughly a third are watching events with the same mounting sense of horror that you get when watching a multi-car pile-up on the other carriageway that you’re helpless to prevent.
Ludicrous.
Remainers need to grapple with the fact that the social class AB was the only class to vote remain.
Once they have understood that, and understood why, then they might comprehend a little more about the country they live in.
Clearly, some Remainers ("a third of the population are putting on Union Jack cufflinks") live in a remote & fantastical world.
Leavers need to grapple with the fact that 48% voted to Remain and at present at best Leave is level pegging on whether it’s a good idea.
Once they have understood that they might comprehend a little more about the country they are living in.
PS Kudos to you for being the only Leaver to grapple with the awkward story that Russia was far more deeply involved with Leave.EU than had previously been made public. I have to say I wasn’t expecting the defence “I for one welcome our new Kremlin overlords”, but it’s a view I suppose.
chortle
remain lost the vote because they didn't understand their own country
Leave won because they knew there were unsavoury elements in their own country and they pandered to them.
I don't recall leave pandering to international bankers
Yes very droll. Leave pandered to the racists and xenophobes. And you lot may deny, bluster, shout, insult (and you do all of those things, sometimes twice, if you're @SeanT), but them's the unpalatable facts.
ah the xenophobe bluster
are you happy staying in an EU which has Italy and Malta as members ? Or Mrs Merkel who is now quietly trying to turf out all those immigrants she invited in ?
Oh and as to the xenohphobe bluster - do you agree or disagree that Leave used xenophobic, racist tropes in their campaign?
Also I don't think the chief instigators and architects from the remain camp can complain too much about xenophobia and lieing, I for one ruled out voting Tory in 2015 immediately after seeing this poster in Broxtowe:
If you don't like Brexit, don't blame Russia -- blame yourself (for failing to inspire the British population to vote Remain, for failing to share the benefits of the EU more widely).
Blaming Russia is shorthand for not taking responsibility for your own actions, or your own country's actions.
That almost completely misses the point. See the times article above.
Trump is what Russia wanted. The important question is why?
Brexit is what Russia wanted. The important question is why?
If a foreign power wants something (bad) to happen in your country, it's not xenophobic to question the motives of those who share that view.
Euroscepticism predates Putin.
Would you be so blasé about Putin interfering in a UK general election to help Corbyn?
Senator Joe McCarthy, welcome back with your Russia-bating. Are they under our beds?
I knew -- thanks to Mr Meeks -- how the all-powerful Putin (or as he says Russia) convinced the British people to vote for Brexit and the American people to vote for Trump, but now he has also inspired the Corbynistas as well.
But, wait. You've missed out the Scottish Nationalists ? Didn't Putin fund them as well? Yes ! And the Catalans? Yes, there are claims that Putin funded them too ! What a meddler!
Also I don't think the chief instigators and architects from the remain camp can complain too much about xenophobia and lieing, I for one ruled out voting Tory in 2015 immediately after seeing this poster in Broxtowe:
So your score on principled actions vs unethical ones is currently at 1-1.
? I voted to remain at the referendum and still think it would have been the best result. The result now has to be implemented - Russian whataboutery is just that.
It depends what you mean by accepted. Roughly a third of the population are putting on their Union Jack cufflinks and polishing their jackboots in anticipation of the great day of liberation. Roughly a third are going with the flow whatever their private feelings. And roughly a third are watching events with the same mounting sense of horror that you get when watching a multi-car pile-up on the other carriageway that you’re helpless to prevent.
Ludicrous.
Remainers need to grapple with the fact that the social class AB was the only class to vote remain.
Once they have understood that, and understood why, then they might comprehend a little more about the country they live in.
Clearly, some Remainers ("a third of the population are putting on Union Jack cufflinks") live in a remote & fantastical world.
Leavers need to grapple with the fact that 48% voted to Remain and at present at best Leave is level pegging on whether it’s a good idea.
Once they have understood that they might comprehend a little more about the country they are living in.
PS Kudos to you for being the only Leaver to grapple with the awkward story that Russia was far more deeply involved with Leave.EU than had previously been made public. I have to say I wasn’t expecting the defence “I for one welcome our new Kremlin overlords”, but it’s a view I suppose.
chortle
remain lost the vote because they didn't understand their own country
Leave won because they knew there were unsavoury elements in their own country and they pandered to them.
I don't recall leave pandering to international bankers
Yes very droll. Leave pandered to the racists and xenophobes. And you lot may deny, bluster, shout, insult (and you do all of those things, sometimes twice, if you're @SeanT), but them's the unpalatable facts.
But before the referendum we were told there weren't enough of those types of people to get 50% of the vote.
Huh? I don't think 50% of the UK is racist or xenophobic, but there is a non-trivial number who were motivated by elements of the Leave campaign.
You really are getting yourself in a tangle here. Surely the xenophobic campaign would have made the nice people vote remain?
It depends what you mean by accepted. Roughly a third of the population are putting on their Union Jack cufflinks and polishing their jackboots in anticipation of the great day of liberation. Roughly a third are going with the flow whatever their private feelings. And roughly a third are watching events with the same mounting sense of horror that you get when watching a multi-car pile-up on the other carriageway that you’re helpless to prevent.
Ludicrous.
Remainers need to grapple with the fact that the social class AB was the only class to vote remain.
Once they have understood that, and understood why, then they might comprehend a little more about the country they live in.
Clearly, some Remainers ("a third of the population are putting on Union Jack cufflinks") live in a remote & fantastical world.
Leavers need to grapple with the fact that 48% voted to Remain and at present at best Leave is level pegging on whether it’s a good idea.
Once they have understood that they might comprehend a little more about the country they are living in.
PS Kudos to you for being the only Leaver to grapple with the awkward story that Russia was far more deeply involved with Leave.EU than had previously been made public. I have to say I wasn’t expecting the defence “I for one welcome our new Kremlin overlords”, but it’s a view I suppose.
chortle
remain lost the vote because they didn't understand their own country
Leave won because they knew there were unsavoury elements in their own country and they pandered to them.
I don't recall leave pandering to international bankers
Yes very droll. Leave pandered to the racists and xenophobes. And you lot may deny, bluster, shout, insult (and you do all of those things, sometimes twice, if you're @SeanT), but them's the unpalatable facts.
ah the xenophobe bluster
are you happy staying in an EU which has Italy and Malta as members ? Or Mrs Merkel who is now quietly trying to turf out all those immigrants she invited in ?
Oh and as to the xenohphobe bluster - do you agree or disagree that Leave used xenophobic, racist tropes in their campaign?
xenophobia is a totally subjective thing what some say is racist other scratch their heads about and say wheres the problem.
for me race wasn't an issue,
do you consider yourself racist because you chose a university witn no black people ?
No doubt Putin wanted Brexit, but to think the russians were involved in some sort of brain washing technique that was beyond the ken of the 'remain' campaign is a stretch to be frank.
There's no brain-washing involved but the technique of using paid teams of sock-puppets to push orchestrated disinformation campaigns is fairly well documented at this point.
You could argue that the Remain campaign should also have used these techniques, but I think it's better if campaigns have at least some degree of ethics, or at least are somewhat behind the cutting edge in manipulative dishonesty.
PS There's some suggestion that these people get paid more for comments that get replies. As far as pb discussions go I feel like "what would a Russian sock-puppet account say" is an interesting data point, but people who don't agree might be better off ignoring the obvious ones...
Also I don't think the chief instigators and architects from the remain camp can complain too much about xenophobia and lieing, I for one ruled out voting Tory in 2015 immediately after seeing this poster in Broxtowe:
Asked to condemn posters suggesting babies and soldiers' lives would be put at risk if AV was introduced Cameron said: "I choose to support my own campaign, which has not made that argument but the fact is if you move to a new voting system it will cost money."
No doubt Putin wanted Brexit, but to think the russians were involved in some sort of brain washing technique that was beyond the ken of the 'remain' campaign is a stretch to be frank.
There's no brain-washing involved but the technique of using paid teams of sock-puppets to push orchestrated disinformation campaigns is fairly well documented at this point.
You could argue that the Remain campaign should also have used these techniques, but I think it's better if campaigns have at least some degree of ethics, or at least are somewhat behind the cutting edge in manipulative dishonesty.
PS There's some suggestion that these people get paid more for comments that get replies. As far as pb discussions go I feel like "what would a Russian sock-puppet account say" is an interesting data point, but people who don't agree might be better off ignoring the obvious ones...
I think their influence is overblown - its far more people like @Saddo and @Plato pushing the message on twitter. Also if you google any 'top' story on twitter there are thousands of people all retweeting the same short sentence (About anything)
Also I don't think the chief instigators and architects from the remain camp can complain too much about xenophobia and lieing, I for one ruled out voting Tory in 2015 immediately after seeing this poster in Broxtowe:
So your score on principled actions vs unethical ones is currently at 1-1.
? I voted to remain at the referendum and still think it would have been the best result. The result now has to be implemented - Russian whataboutery is just that.
Also I don't think the chief instigators and architects from the remain camp can complain too much about xenophobia and lieing, I for one ruled out voting Tory in 2015 immediately after seeing this poster in Broxtowe:
It depends what you mean by accepted. Roughly a third of the population are putting on their Union Jack cufflinks and polishing their jackboots in anticipa that you’re helpless to prevent.
Ludicrous.
Remainers need to grapple with the fact that the social class AB was the only class to vote remain.
e Remainers ("a third of the population are putting on Union Jack cufflinks") live in a remote & fantastical world.
Leavers need to grapple with the fact that 48% voted to Remain and at present at best Leave is level pegging on whether it’s a good idea.
Once they have understood that they might comprehend a little more about the country they are living in.
PS Kudos to you for overlords”, but it’s a view I suppose.
chortle
remain lost the vote because they didn't understand their own country
Leave won because they knew there were unsavoury elements in their own country and they pandered to them.
I don't recall leave pandering to international bankers
Yes very droll. Leave pandered to the racists and xenophobes. And you lot may deny, bluster, shout, insult (and you do all of those things, sometimes twice, if you're @SeanT), but them's the unpalatable facts.
ah the xenophobe bluster
are you happy staying in an EU which has Italy and Malta as members ? Or Mrs Merkel who is now quietly trying to turf out all those immigrants she invited in ?
Er, yes to the Italy and Malta question. And re. Mrs Merkel, she is battling with huge geopolitical forces and sometimes getting it right and sometimes getting it wrong. I don't see what that has got to do with the EU as an institution. And all those in your mind malign forces will continue to be our neighbours whatever flavour of Brexit we get.
Mrs Merkel is largely the source of her own problems. If she wants to invite loads of people to Germany that is her right but then :
1. she should look after them herself 2. stop trying to foist people on other countries 3. remember that as part of a Union she should consult her neighbours as to the consequences
It depends what you mean by accepted. Roughly a third of the population are putting on their Union Jack cufflinks and polishing their jackboots in anticipation of the great day of liberation. Roughly a third are going with the flow whatever their private feelings. And roughly a third are watching events with the same mounting sense of horror that you get when watching a multi-car pile-up on the other carriageway that you’re helpless to prevent.
Ludicrous.
Remainers need to grapple with the fact that the social class AB was the only class to vote remain.
Once they have understood that, and understood why, then they might comprehend a little more about the country they live in.
Clearly, some Remainers ("a third of the population are putting on Union Jack cufflinks") live in a remote & fantastical world.
Leavers need to grapple with the fact that 48% voted to Remain and at present at best Leave is level pegging on whether it’s a good idea.
Once they have understood that they might comprehend a little more about the country they are living in.
PS Kudos to you for being the only Leaver to grapple with the awkward story that Russia was far more deeply involved with Leave.EU than had previously been made public. I have to say I wasn’t expecting the defence “I for one welcome our new Kremlin overlords”, but it’s a view I suppose.
chortle
remain lost the vote because they didn't understand their own country
Remain lost the vote because of xenophobic lies. The country is now blighted for many years as a result. Leavers have yet to work through the implications of the manner of their victory. Until they do, Britain is in a downward spiral.
Maybe Remain just failed to convince people that the EU was a good thing.
It depends what you mean by accepted. Roughly a third of the population are putting on their Union Jack cufflinks and polishing their jackboots in anticipation of the great day of liberation. Roughly a third are going with the flow whatever their private feelings. And roughly a third are watching events with the same mounting sense of horror that you get when watching a multi-car pile-up on the other carriageway that you’re helpless to prevent.
Ludicrous.
Remainers need to grapple with the fact that the social class AB was the only class to vote remain.
Once they have understood that, and understood why, then they might comprehend a little more about the country they live in.
Clearly, some Remainers ("a third of the population are putting on Union Jack cufflinks") live in a remote & fantastical world.
Leavers need to grapple with the fact that 48% voted to Remain and at present at best Leave is level pegging on whether it’s a good idea.
Once they have understood that they might comprehend a little more about the country they are living in.
PS Kudos to you for being the only Leaver to grapple with the awkward story that Russia was far more deeply involved with Leave.EU than had previously been made public. I have to say I wasn’t expecting the defence “I for one welcome our new Kremlin overlords”, but it’s a view I suppose.
chortle
remain lost the vote because they didn't understand their own country
Leave won because they knew there were unsavoury elements in their own country and they pandered to them.
I don't recall leave pandering to international bankers
Yes very droll. Leave pandered to the racists and xenophobes. And you lot may deny, bluster, shout, insult (and you do all of those things, sometimes twice, if you're @SeanT), but them's the unpalatable facts.
But before the referendum we were told there weren't enough of those types of people to get 50% of the vote.
Huh? I don't think 50% of the UK is racist or xenophobic, but there is a non-trivial number who were motivated by elements of the Leave campaign.
You really are getting yourself in a tangle here. Surely the xenophobic campaign would have made the nice people vote remain?
The nice people did vote Remain. Plenty of nice people voted Leave. Some nasty people saw the xenophobic Leave campaign and thought: hell yeah.
If you don't like Brexit, don't blame Russia -- blame yourself (for failing to inspire the British population to vote Remain, for failing to share the benefits of the EU more widely).
Blaming Russia is shorthand for not taking responsibility for your own actions, or your own country's actions.
That almost completely misses the point. See the times article above.
Trump is what Russia wanted. The important question is why?
Brexit is what Russia wanted. The important question is why?
If a foreign power wants something (bad) to happen in your country, it's not xenophobic to question the motives of those who share that view.
Euroscepticism predates Putin.
Would you be so blasé about Putin interfering in a UK general election to help Corbyn?
If you don't like Brexit, don't blame Russia -- blame yourself (for failing to inspire the British population to vote Remain, for failing to share the benefits of the EU more widely).
Blaming Russia is shorthand for not taking responsibility for your own actions, or your own country's actions.
That almost completely misses the point. See the times article above.
Trump is what Russia wanted. The important question is why?
Brexit is what Russia wanted. The important question is why?
If a foreign power wants something (bad) to happen in your country, it's not xenophobic to question the motives of those who share that view.
Euroscepticism predates Putin.
Would you be so blasé about Putin interfering in a UK general election to help Corbyn?
Election result is unexpected, therefore it was rigged?
Personally, made a fortune out of my Russian links. I was given a gold mine for voting for Brexit and a silver mine for voting Labour. Kerching baby!
Good to hear from you, tovarich. I am on the payroll as well.
My comments on pb.com today have earned me another dacha.
I'll soon have as many houses as a Remainer.
Fortunately, not in Hungary, though. Because even paid sock puppets have principles!
You lucky thing. The hours of leafleting and canvassing @Casino_Royale and I did for the referendum only got us each a tin of red caviar and a mail merge thank you note.
It depends what you mean by accepted. Roughly a third of the population are putting on their Union Jack cufflinks and polishing their jackboots in anticipa that you’re helpless to prevent.
Ludicrous.
Remainers need to grapple with the fact that the social class AB was the only class to vote remain.
e Remainers ("a third of the population are putting on Union Jack cufflinks") live in a remote & fantastical world.
Leavers need to grapple with the fact that 48% voted to Remain and at present at best Leave is level pegging on whether it’s a good idea.
Once they have understood that they might comprehend a little more about the country they are living in.
PS Kudos to you for overlords”, but it’s a view I suppose.
chortle
remain lost the vote because they didn't understand their own country
Leave won because they knew there were unsavoury elements in their own country and they pandered to them.
I don't recall leave pandering to international bankers
Yes very droll. Leave pandered to the racists and xenophobes. And you lot may deny, bluster, shout, insult (and you do all of those things, sometimes twice, if you're @SeanT), but them's the unpalatable facts.
ah the xenophobe bluster
are you happy staying in an EU which has Italy and Malta as members ? Or Mrs Merkel who is now quietly trying to turf out all those immigrants she invited in ?
Er, yes to the Italy and Malta question. And re. Mrs Merkel, she is battling with huge geopolitical forces and sometimes getting it right and sometimes getting it wrong. I don't see what that has got to do with the EU as an institution. And all those in your mind malign forces will continue to be our neighbours whatever flavour of Brexit we get.
Mrs Merkel is largely the source of her own problems. If she wants to invite loads of people to Germany that is her right but then :
1. she should look after them herself 2. stop trying to foist people on other countries 3. remember that as part of a Union she should consult her neighbours as to the consequences
she hasnt done any of that.
Agree. Shocking.
But nothing to do with the institution of the EU. Don't forget, EU members are and always were sovereign. She should no sooner have consulted us on her non-EU immigration policy as we needed to consult Poland on ours.
It depends what you mean by accepted. Roughly a third of the population are putting on their Union Jack cufflinks and polishing their jackboots in anticipation of the great day of liberation. Roughly a third are going with the on the other carriageway that you’re helpless to prevent.
Ludicrous.
Remainers need to grapple with the fact that the social class AB was the only class to vote remain.
Once they have understood that, and understood why, then they might comprehend a little more about the country they live in.
Clearly, some Remainers ("a third of the population are putting on Union Jack cufflinks") live in a remote & fantastical world.
Leavers need to grapple with the fact that 48% voted to Remain and at present at best Leave is level pegging on whether it’s a good idea.
Once they have understood that they might comprehend a little more about the country they are living in.
PS Kudos to you for being the only Leaver to grapple with the awkward story that Russia was far more deeply involved with Leave.EU than had previously been made public. I have to say I wasn’t expecting the defence “I for one welcome our new Kremlin overlords”, but it’s a view I suppose.
chortle
remain lost the vote because they didn't understand their own country
Leave won because they knew there were unsavoury elements in their own country and they pandered to them.
I don't recall leave pandering to international bankers
Yes very droll. Leave pandered to the racists and xenophobes. And you lot may deny, bluster, shout, insult (and you do all of those things, sometimes twice, if you're @SeanT), but them's the unpalatable facts.
ah the xenophobe bluster
are you happy staying in an EU which has Italy and Malta as members ? Or Mrs Merkel who is now quietly trying to turf out all those immigrants she invited in ?
Oh and as to the xenohphobe bluster - do you agree or disagree that Leave used xenophobic, racist tropes in their campaign?
xenophobia is a totally subjective thing what some say is racist other scratch their heads about and say wheres the problem.
for me race wasn't an issue,
do you consider yourself racist because you chose a university witn no black people ?
Cicero summed it up best.
"We live in the sink of Romulus, not the Republic of Plato."
Mr. Topping, that's woefully naive. Germany throwing her doors open to migrants naturally and obviously had (and continues to have) a massive impact on other countries, especially Greece and Italy.
No doubt Putin wanted Brexit, but to think the russians were involved in some sort of brain washing technique that was beyond the ken of the 'remain' campaign is a stretch to be frank.
There's no brain-washing involved but the technique of using paid teams of sock-puppets to push orchestrated disinformation campaigns is fairly well documented at this point.
You could argue that the Remain campaign should also have used these techniques, but I think it's better if campaigns have at least some degree of ethics, or at least are somewhat behind the cutting edge in manipulative dishonesty.
PS There's some suggestion that these people get paid more for comments that get replies. As far as pb discussions go I feel like "what would a Russian sock-puppet account say" is an interesting data point, but people who don't agree might be better off ignoring the obvious ones...
I think their influence is overblown - its far more people like @Saddo and @Plato pushing the message on twitter. Also if you google any 'top' story on twitter there are thousands of people all retweeting the same short sentence (About anything)
Well, the two complement and signal-boost each other.
The other thing that's worth saying is that this stuff probably still pales into insignificance compared to decades of deliberately mendacious stories pushed by the domestic right-wing media, much of it owned by rich individuals with their own agendas. The Web Brigades were innovative in pushing purely made-up stories, helped by Facebook's terrible UX that made it hard to distinguish from normal news websites, but there's probably not a huge practical difference between that and tabloid stories that are written to be deliberately misleading, but woven around some true or partly-true facts.
All democratic votes seem flawed in some ways when you lose. The other side had more air-time, more media attention and the right arguments weren't publicised. Most people are used to that but accept that's democracy. I've seldom seen the party I vote for win a GE.
Despite all the media meltdown, that remains true for the UK. The EU referendum was a binary decision, and a few of the Remainers regard themselves as unusually prescient and superior to the hoi polloi. The other lot were inherently inferior, hence the outraged reaction.
They are the wise ones and this shouldn't happen. They're even surprised that most people accept the decision.
You accurately describe the mindset of the illiberal, fascist wing of the Remainers.
But, the truly remarkable thing is that these people simultaneously assert that they are the sole enlightened liberals in the country.
This morning two national newspapers threaten MPs by reference to their own preferred interpretation of what the referendum vote meant. There are illiberal fascists in 2018 and they ain’t Remainers.
I particularly like the Loch Ness Monster on this one. Presumably picures of unicorns were not available:
Again the article is slanted towards Remoaner propaganda. The reason why most people think Brexit is going badly is because its taking so long to implement the will of the People, and because the EU is behaving like a Mafiosi putting so many obstacles in the way. People are frustrated by this. That doesnt mean most people who voted to leave have changed their minds about wanting it to happen. They just want us to get on and do it.
As for most people believing that we will leave the EU -of course we will. All but die hard Remoaners accept this. This is what we voted for. its democracy. Only Remoaners seem to think its ok to ignore democracy.
"We must be mad -literally mad" So now Remoaners are lifting phrases from Enoch Powell's "Rivers of Blood" speech. Like Powell, Remoaners have long been making predictions of apocalyptic disaster, which wont happen.
Again the article is slanted towards Remoaner propaganda. The reason why most people think Brexit is going badly is because its taking so long to implement the will of the People, and because the EU is behaving like a Mafiosi putting so many obstacles in the way. People are frustrated by this. That doesnt mean most people who voted to leave have changed their minds about wanting it to happen. They just want us to get on and do it.
As for most people believing that we will leave the EU -of course we will. All but die hard Remoaners accept this. This is what we voted for. its democracy. Only Remoaners seem to think its ok to ignore democracy.
"We must be mad -literally mad" So now Remoaners are lifting phrases from Enoch Powell's "Rivers of Blood" speech. Like Powell, Remoaners have long been making predictions of apocalyptic disaster, which wont happen.
Also I don't think the chief instigators and architects from the remain camp can complain too much about xenophobia and lieing, I for one ruled out voting Tory in 2015 immediately after seeing this poster in Broxtowe:
It depends what you mean by accepted. Roughly a third of the population are putting on their Union Jack cufflinks and polishing their jackboots in anticipa that you’re helpless to prevent.
Ludicrous.
Remainers need to grapple with the fact that the social class AB was the only class to vote remain.
e Remainers ("a third of the population are putting on Union Jack cufflinks") live in a remote & fantastical world.
Leavers need to grapple with the fact that 48% voted to Remain and at present at best Leave is level pegging on whether it’s a good idea.
Once they have understood that they might comprehend a little more about the country they are living in.
PS Kudos to you for overlords”, but it’s a view I suppose.
chortle
remain lost the vote because they didn't understand their own country
Leave won because they knew there were unsavoury elements in their own country and they pandered to them.
I don't recall leave pandering to international bankers
Yes very droll. Leave pandered to the racists and xenophobes. And you lot may deny, bluster, shout, insult (and you do all of those things, sometimes twice, if you're @SeanT), but them's the unpalatable facts.
ah the xenophobe bluster
are you happy staying in an EU which has Italy and Malta as members ? Or Mrs Merkel who is now quietly trying to turf out all those immigrants she invited in ?
Er, yes to the Italy andof Brexit we get.
Mrs Merkel is largely the source of henion she should consult her neighbours as to the consequences
she hasnt done any of that.
Agree. Shocking.
But nothing to do with the institution of the EU. Don't forget, EU members are and always were sovereign. She should no sooner have consulted us on her non-EU immigration policy as we needed to consult Poland on ours.
au contraire
anyone Merkel lets in can come to UK the EU is now threatening countries that refuse to take the people Merkel doesn't want EU money will be used for a crisis Merkel created
In truth she was plain wrong. Cameron's approach of refugee support was correct and is also in line with what war refugees themselves want
Ongoing peace and prosperity for millions of people.
But we voted against that...
Don’t be naive. US Presidents want what is best for their country, first and foremost. Whether it is also good for another country is a second order issue.
The same applies to Putin. The connections between some in the Leave campaign and Putin do worry me but I confess that I have not been following the story closely. If laws have been broken prosecutions should follow. But I don’t see that it helps us work out what to do now.
Unlike some on here I think now the referendum was lost before the campaign started. I think there were enough people just waiting for the opportunity to blow a giant raspberry to those in power and the Remain campaign completely failed to understand this or work out a way of dealing with it.
It is all very well for people to complain about the two xenophobic posters. I tend to agree with them. They were not, to put it mildly, pretty.
But it was pretty obvious from the time of the migrant crisis the previous year, if not before, and Germany’s decision to tear up existing treaties, coupled with the various Islamist terrorist atrocities in those years, that the issue of control of borders and, specifically, the issue of whether it was wise to permit mass migration from war torn Muslim countries and/or ones with a history of terrorism would be one which needed addressing. (It still needs addressing.) The government did not address it sensibly. And so people like Farage shamelessly and disgracefully exploited it.
Given that, reportedly, Cameron brough the referendum date forward because he did not want to face another summer migrant crisis, it seems bizarre to me that he did not think hard about how to address the immigration issue sensibly well in advance of the actual campaign. Ceding the ground to his most unscrupulous opponents on this issue was a strategic - and a moral - mistake. (And in my view morality does not just rest with those opposing xenophobia but also with those considering what sort of immigration controls a country should have. I am not one of those who think that there should be no immigration controls at all, whether in law or in practice.)
I am not following the ins and outs at the moment but am assuming that No Deal is more likely than not. Would that be a fair assessment?
The support of all of the governments of the UK, Westminster, Holyrood, Cardiff and Belfast. The unequivocal support of our electronic media. The support of almost all of academia. The abuse of the Treasury by Osborne in particular. An almost endless supply of think tanks and experts who directly or indirectly received funding from the EU and were willing to put their mouth where their money was. More money. Support from Obama and of course the EU. Nigel Farage batting for the other side.
Leave had: A bus. A simple message that people could understand. The frustration and anger directed towards our betters who had refused to take our views for more than 40 years. The rank dishonesty, corruption and anti-democratic nature of the EU.
There must come a point, surely, when remainers recognise that they were trying to sell a shit product. Yes, there were concerns about what the alternative was, yes there was the possibility of some economic consequences, yes we were much more deeply embedded in this monstrosity than our betters had ever let on. But come on, who, fighting for remain, actually managed to come up with a credible positive case for the EU? Certainly not Cameron and Osborne. Clegg came up with nonsense like we haven't had WW3 yet. That was about as credible as it got.
Remain deserved to lose because it was selling shit. Blaming xenophobic lies or Russian bots really misses the point completely.
Also I don't think the chief instigators and architects from the remain camp can complain too much about xenophobia and lieing, I for one ruled out voting Tory in 2015 immediately after seeing this poster in Broxtowe:
Broxtowe was full of them. I've never seen more posters on a theme ever before. But you've got to remember that despite a few senior Tories supporting Remain the party has always been xenophobic. The Remain campaign never made mention of the shabby posters and broadcasts put out by Leave. It was first and last about economics.
Again the article is slanted towards Remoaner propaganda. The reason why most people think Brexit is going badly is because its taking so long to implement the will of the People, and because the EU is behaving like a Mafiosi putting so many obstacles in the way. People are frustrated by this. That doesnt mean most people who voted to leave have changed their minds about wanting it to happen. They just want us to get on and do it.
As for most people believing that we will leave the EU -of course we will. All but die hard Remoaners accept this. This is what we voted for. its democracy. Only Remoaners seem to think its ok to ignore democracy.
"We must be mad -literally mad" So now Remoaners are lifting phrases from Enoch Powell's "Rivers of Blood" speech. Like Powell, Remoaners have long been making predictions of apocalyptic disaster, which wont happen.
Why are Leavers such humourless virgins?
Why are Remoaners such opponents of democracy?
If we are going to quote past politicians, I suggest Churchill in the movie Darkest Hour
"You cant negotiate with a tiger when your head is in its mouth."
Churchill too was up against people from the British Establishment who believed that it would be a catastrophe if Britain dared to defy a big monolithic European superstate.
I prefer Churchill to Powell.
But hey, Brexit's gonna happen whether you like it or not.
It depends what you mean by accepted. Roughly a third of the population are putting on their Union Jack cufflinks and polishing their jackboots in anticipa that you’re helpless to prevent.
Ludicrous.
Remainers need to grapple with the fact that the social class AB was the only class to vote remain.
e Remainers ("a third of the population are putting on Union Jack cufflinks") live in a remote & fantastical world.
Leavers need to grapple with the fact that 48% voted to Remain and at present at best Leave is level pegging on whether it’s a good idea.
Once they have understood that they might comprehend a little more about the country they are living in.
PS Kudos to you for overlords”, but it’s a view I suppose.
chortle
remain lost the vote because they didn't understand their own country
Leave won because they knew there were unsavoury elements in their own country and they pandered to them.
I don't recall leave pandering to international bankers
Yes very droll. Leave pandered to the racists and xenophobes. And you lot may deny, bluster, shout, insult (and you do all of those things, sometimes twice, if you're @SeanT), but them's the unpalatable facts.
ah the xenophobe bluster
are you happy staying in an EU which has Italy and Malta as members ? Or Mrs Merkel who is now quietly trying to turf out all those immigrants she invited in ?
Er, yes to the Italy andof Brexit we get.
Mrs Merkel is largely the source of henion she should consult her neighbours as to the consequences
she hasnt done any of that.
Agree. Shocking.
But nothing to do with the institution of the EU. Don't forget, EU members are and always were sovereign. She should no sooner have consulted us on her non-EU immigration policy as we needed to consult Poland on ours.
au contraire
anyone Merkel lets in can come to UK the EU is now threatening countries that refuse to take the people Merkel doesn't want EU money will be used for a crisis Merkel created
In truth she was plain wrong. Cameron's approach of refugee support was correct and is also in line with what war refugees themselves want
What do you mean "can come to"? Anyone "can come to" the UK, just about.
I am not following the ins and outs at the moment but am assuming that No Deal is more likely than not. Would that be a fair assessment?
A deal will probably be done in the end, probably essentially on the EU's terms. I'd put the chance of No Deal at no more than 20% and probably lower now.
The time when No Deal was more likely was in the run-up to last December. When the Leavers blinked then, a deal became the great likelihood. We are now just observing the long march towards the negotiated surrender.
Again the article is slanted towards Remoaner propaganda. The reason why most people think Brexit is going badly is because its taking so long to implement the will of the People, and because the EU is behaving like a Mafiosi putting so many obstacles in the way. People are frustrated by this. That doesnt mean most people who voted to leave have changed their minds about wanting it to happen. They just want us to get on and do it.
As for most people believing that we will leave the EU -of course we will. All but die hard Remoaners accept this. This is what we voted for. its democracy. Only Remoaners seem to think its ok to ignore democracy.
"We must be mad -literally mad" So now Remoaners are lifting phrases from Enoch Powell's "Rivers of Blood" speech. Like Powell, Remoaners have long been making predictions of apocalyptic disaster, which wont happen.
Why are Leavers such humourless virgins?
Why are Remoaners such opponents of democracy?
If we are going to quote past politicians, I suggest Churchill in the movie Darkest Hour
"You cant negotiate with a tiger when your head is in its mouth."
Churchill too was up against people from the British Establishment who believed that it would be a catastrophe if Britain dared to defy a big monolithic European superstate.
I prefer Churchill to Powell.
But hey, Brexit's gonna happen whether you like it or not.
I know Brexit is going to happen you soaked up popinjay.
But nothing to do with the institution of the EU. Don't forget, EU members are and always were sovereign. She should no sooner have consulted us on her non-EU immigration policy as we needed to consult Poland on ours.
Except that's not true. I think you're displaying your ignorance on what "always were sovereign" actually means once more.
Not sure what your point about the Tsar is, as they never tried to sue for peace and that was why Nicholas' armies collapsed. Are you thinking of the Kadets being forced off the Provisional Government after Milyukov declared the war would go on?
With regard to the Soviet troops, Nazi atrocities against Slavs were enormously helpful in that regard. As I have said, initially many Soviet citizens were very pleased to see them, especially in those areas the Soviets had conquered and held by force - the Ukraine and the Baltic states. That didn't last. The irony of course is that under Order no. 227 the NKVD were themselves responsible for a vast number of deaths among Soviet soldiers.
What I meant was that the USSR was too big to be overcome as long as it kept fighting. When you look at his tactics with a cold eye, all Hitler's successes were due to the surrender of confused and demoralised opponents who found the Germans were unexpectedly quick and aggressive. That succeeded in France by the push through Ardennes, and failed in Britain where the natural defences were more formidable and the leader of the government point blank refused to even consider settlement. In Russia, the tactics nearly captured Moscow, but once that had failed there was no real hope of overcoming the Soviets.
One statistic to chew in. Behind the Volga there were 300 km of defensive emplacements. That's as long as the M1. Imagine trying to fight through that if there was any resistance. Can't be done quickly. And as long as there was no sudden collapse, the sheer size of the USSR was always bound to tell sooner rather than later, especially when coupled to the US and UK.
I remember studying Barbarossa at School. It was stunningly successful but based on faulty intelligence. Within the first month the Germans had completely destroyed more divisions than they thought the Russians had. And the better equipped forces were just coming west from Siberia.
Because of the faulty intelligence the Germans were not adequately prepared for a winter campaign. Because Hitler had stupidly not focussed on the middle east there were shortages of oil. Because of the Battle of Britain there was insufficient air support. But their military was formidable. Thankfully they were led by an idiot.
Stalin was taken by suprise by Barbarossa inpart as he was monitoring German wholesale wool prices - on the reasonable adaption they would rise if the German Army was buying winter clothing.
Also I don't think the chief instigators and architects from the remain camp can complain too much about xenophobia and lieing, I for one ruled out voting Tory in 2015 immediately after seeing this poster in Broxtowe:
The support of all of the governments of the UK, Westminster, Holyrood, Cardiff and Belfast. The unequivocal support of our electronic media. The support of almost all of academia. The abuse of the Treasury by Osborne in particular. An almost endless supply of think tanks and experts who directly or indirectly received funding from the EU and were willing to put their mouth where their money was. More money. Support from Obama and of course the EU. Nigel Farage batting for the other side.
Leave had: A bus. A simple message that people could understand. The frustration and anger directed towards our betters who had refused to take our views for more than 40 years. The rank dishonesty, corruption and anti-democratic nature of the EU.
There must come a point, surely, when remainers recognise that they were trying to sell a shit product. Yes, there were concerns about what the alternative was, yes there was the possibility of some economic consequences, yes we were much more deeply embedded in this monstrosity than our betters had ever let on. But come on, who, fighting for remain, actually managed to come up with a credible positive case for the EU? Certainly not Cameron and Osborne. Clegg came up with nonsense like we haven't had WW3 yet. That was about as credible as it got.
Remain deserved to lose because it was selling shit. Blaming xenophobic lies or Russian bots really misses the point completely.
Ps, Vladimir, I take cheques.
You're missing the point. Leave won. The nature of its victory must now be addressed. So it's not about blaming xenophobic lies, it's about how you incorporate those xenophobic lies into the body politic.
That's why Leave has been so utterly unpersuasive to date - many Remain supporters cannot countenance getting anywhere near that campaign. That's why Leave has floundered in setting a positive agenda or in identifying a future course of action for the country that the EU will work with - all it had were xenophobic lies to secure victory. That's why national newspapers two years on are putting fascist tropes on their front pages to bully MPs into a highly tendentious view of what the referendum vote required.
Until Leavers come to terms with the basis of their own victory, the country will continue in its divided state, on a downward spiral.
The support of all of the governments of the UK, Westminster, Holyrood, Cardiff and Belfast. The unequivocal support of our electronic media. The support of almost all of academia. The abuse of the Treasury by Osborne in particular. An almost endless supply of think tanks and experts who directly or indirectly received funding from the EU and were willing to put their mouth where their money was. More money. Support from Obama and of course the EU. Nigel Farage batting for the other side.
Leave had: A bus. A simple message that people could understand. The frustration and anger directed towards our betters who had refused to take our views for more than 40 years. The rank dishonesty, corruption and anti-democratic nature of the EU.
There must come a point, surely, when remainers recognise that they were trying to sell a shit product. Yes, there were concerns about what the alternative was, yes there was the possibility of some economic consequences, yes we were much more deeply embedded in this monstrosity than our betters had ever let on. But come on, who, fighting for remain, actually managed to come up with a credible positive case for the EU? Certainly not Cameron and Osborne. Clegg came up with nonsense like we haven't had WW3 yet. That was about as credible as it got.
Remain deserved to lose because it was selling shit. Blaming xenophobic lies or Russian bots really misses the point completely.
Ps, Vladimir, I take cheques.
You don't think a constant and relentless stream of Daily Mail, Sun, and Daily Express front pages might be counted as a resource for the Leave team? I do know that politicians do tend to worry about the headlines and front pages on the biggest selling newspapers and one would assume this means they have some influence.
I am not following the ins and outs at the moment but am assuming that No Deal is more likely than not. Would that be a fair assessment?
A deal will probably be done in the end, probably essentially on the EU's terms. I'd put the chance of No Deal at no more than 20% and probably lower now.
The time when No Deal was more likely was in the run-up to last December. When the Leavers blinked then, a deal became the great likelihood. We are now just observing the long march towards the negotiated surrender.
I don't think that's true. The only conclusion I can reach from last December is that the brexiteers didn't understand what they'd signed up to. I think that when it's spelled out in black and white, the chances of No Deal increase dramatically. From where we are at the moment, they could well be topside of 50%.
Again the article is slanted towards Remoaner propaganda. The reason why most people think Brexit is going badly is because its taking so long to implement the will of the People, and because the EU is behaving like a Mafiosi putting so many obstacles in the way. People are frustrated by this. That doesnt mean most people who voted to leave have changed their minds about wanting it to happen. They just want us to get on and do it.
As for most people believing that we will leave the EU -of course we will. All but die hard Remoaners accept this. This is what we voted for. its democracy. Only Remoaners seem to think its ok to ignore democracy.
"We must be mad -literally mad" So now Remoaners are lifting phrases from Enoch Powell's "Rivers of Blood" speech. Like Powell, Remoaners have long been making predictions of apocalyptic disaster, which wont happen.
Why are Leavers such humourless virgins?
Why are Remoaners such opponents of democracy?
If we are going to quote past politicians, I suggest Churchill in the movie Darkest Hour
"You cant negotiate with a tiger when your head is in its mouth."
Churchill too was up against people from the British Establishment who believed that it would be a catastrophe if Britain dared to defy a big monolithic European superstate.
I prefer Churchill to Powell.
But hey, Brexit's gonna happen whether you like it or not.
I know Brexit is going to happen you soaked up popinjay.
But nothing to do with the institution of the EU. Don't forget, EU members are and always were sovereign. She should no sooner have consulted us on her non-EU immigration policy as we needed to consult Poland on ours.
Except that's not true. I think you're displaying your ignorance on what "always were sovereign" actually means once more.
Hey guv'nor don't blame me, take it up with the Secretary of State for Exiting the EU.
It depends what you mean by accepted. Roughly a third of the population are putting on their Union Jack cufflinks and polishing their jackboots in anticipa that you’re helpless to prevent.
Ludicrous.
Remainers need to grapple with the fact that the social class AB was the only class to vote remain.
e Remainers ("a third of the population are putting on Union Jack cufflinks") live in a remote & fantastical world.
Leavers need to grapple with the fact that 48% voted to Remain and at present at best Leave is level pegging on whether it’s a good idea.
Once they have understood that they might comprehend a little more about the country they are living in.
PS Kudos to you for overlords”, but it’s a view I suppose.
chortle
remain lost the vote because they didn't understand their own country
Leave won beo them.
I don't recall leave pandering to international bankers
Yes very droll. Lable facts.
ah the xenophobe bluster
are you happy staying in an EU which has Italy and Malta as members ? Or Mrs Merkel who is now quietly trying to turf out all those immigrants she invited in ?
Er, yes to the Italy andof Brexit we get.
Mrs Merkel is largely the source of henion she should consult her neighbours as to the consequences
she hasnt done any of that.
Agree. Shocking.
But nothing to do with the instit ours.
au contraire
anyone Merkel lets in can come to UK the EU is now threatening countries that refuse to take the people Merkel doesn't want EU money will be used for a crisis Merkel created
In truth she was plain wrong. Cameron's approach of refugee support was correct and is also in line with what war refugees themselves want
What do you mean "can come to"? Anyone "can come to" the UK, just about.
can come by right Mr T as youre well aware and since Germany is currently embroiled in its biggest immigration scandal ever where the Federal Government has massaged the numbers sweetened with a touch of bribery, we have the unedifying spectacle of the offender telling the rest of us we are not communautaire.
But nothing to do with the institution of the EU. Don't forget, EU members are and always were sovereign. She should no sooner have consulted us on her non-EU immigration policy as we needed to consult Poland on ours.
Except that's not true. I think you're displaying your ignorance on what "always were sovereign" actually means once more.
Hey guv'nor don't blame me, take it up with the Secretary of State for Exiting the EU.
The SoS has never said it in the way you misinterpret it.
The guilt by association arguments are becoming tedious.
I don't care that Putin supports Trump or Brexit, I dont care that Gerry Adams supports Corbyn or Jimmy Saville loved Maggie. That Liam Brady was a Lib Dem, Fred West a Residents Association man, and Noel Edmunds a Green. I dont make up my mind based on who's side I'm on, or which side has the less twats, I make up my mind based on the issues as I understand them. So lets discuss those issues please not the bellends that attach themselves to any cause.
So please I come to Pb (long time lurker) to hear the issues not a tedious 'someone who voted the same way as you is a wrong 'un so that means what you voted is evil.'
remain lost the vote because they didn't understand their own country
Leave won because they knew there were unsavoury elements in their own country and they pandered to them.
I don't recall leave pandering to international bankers
Yes very droll. Leave pandered to the racists and xenophobes. And you lot may deny, bluster, shout, insult (and you do all of those things, sometimes twice, if you're @SeanT), but them's the unpalatable facts.
Why was that pandering successful in a country where generally such campaigns did not get traction? That is the question that is not answered and needs to be.
The support of all of the governments of the UK, Westminster, Holyrood, Cardiff and Belfast. The unequivocal support of our electronic media. The support of almost all of academia. The abuse of the Treasury by Osborne in particular. An almost endless supply of think tanks and experts who directly or indirectly received funding from the EU and were willing to put their mouth where their money was. More money. Support from Obama and of course the EU. Nigel Farage batting for the other side.
Leave had: A bus. A simple message that people could understand. The frustration and anger directed towards our betters who had refused to take our views for more than 40 years. The rank dishonesty, corruption and anti-democratic nature of the EU.
There must come a point, surely, when remainers recognise that they were trying to sell a shit product. Yes, there were concerns about what the alternative was, yes there was the possibility of some economic consequences, yes we were much more deeply embedded in this monstrosity than our betters had ever let on. But come on, who, fighting for remain, actually managed to come up with a credible positive case for the EU? Certainly not Cameron and Osborne. Clegg came up with nonsense like we haven't had WW3 yet. That was about as credible as it got.
Remain deserved to lose because it was selling shit. Blaming xenophobic lies or Russian bots really misses the point completely.
Ps, Vladimir, I take cheques.
It’s not either/or. Remain may have deserved to lose. But the manner of Leave’s win and whether some of its leaders may have been played by others does have an impact, especially if people on the leave side try and ignore this. I am with Mr M on this.
The time when No Deal was more likely was in the run-up to last December. When the Leavers blinked then, a deal became the great likelihood. We are now just observing the long march towards the negotiated surrender.
Phillip Lee says he is resigning not to stop brexit, but to prevent a bad deal :
I suspect that Jaguar Land Rover is simply being sensible: they know that - on a five year view - that things will have been sorted out, and therefore being able to invest at a below market price in the UK makes sense (i.e. basing electric car production here).
The electric Jaguar (I-Pace) is built in Austria. In the EU. I assume this is an attempt by JLR to get the build quality of their very important new product to a level slightly above abysmal.
The support of all of the governments of the UK, Westminster, Holyrood, Cardiff and Belfast. The unequivocal support of our electronic media. The support of almost all of academia. The abuse of the Treasury by Osborne in particular. An almost endless supply of think tanks and experts who directly or indirectly received funding from the EU and were willing to put their mouth where their money was. More money. Support from Obama and of course the EU. Nigel Farage batting for the other side.
Leave had: A bus. A simple message that people could understand. The frustration and anger directed towards our betters who had refused to take our views for more than 40 years. The rank dishonesty, corruption and anti-democratic nature of the EU.
There must come a point, surely, when remainers recognise that they were trying to sell a shit product. Yes, there were concerns about what the alternative was, yes there was the possibility of some economic consequences, yes we were much more deeply embedded in this monstrosity than our betters had ever let on. But come on, who, fighting for remain, actually managed to come up with a credible positive case for the EU? Certainly not Cameron and Osborne. Clegg came up with nonsense like we haven't had WW3 yet. That was about as credible as it got.
Remain deserved to lose because it was selling shit. Blaming xenophobic lies or Russian bots really misses the point completely.
Ps, Vladimir, I take cheques.
You don't think a constant and relentless stream of Daily Mail, Sun, and Daily Express front pages might be counted as a resource for the Leave team? I do know that politicians do tend to worry about the headlines and front pages on the biggest selling newspapers and one would assume this means they have some influence.
I think that the evidence for that is very mixed. Do you really believe it was the Sun wot won it? Clearly Leave had some support amongst the print media but so did remain. And newspaper circulation has fallen massively. But ok, add it to the list if you want.
I am not following the ins and outs at the moment but am assuming that No Deal is more likely than not. Would that be a fair assessment?
A deal will probably be done in the end, probably essentially on the EU's terms. I'd put the chance of No Deal at no more than 20% and probably lower now.
The time when No Deal was more likely was in the run-up to last December. When the Leavers blinked then, a deal became the great likelihood. We are now just observing the long march towards the negotiated surrender.
I don't think that's true. The only conclusion I can reach from last December is that the brexiteers didn't understand what they'd signed up to. I think that when it's spelled out in black and white, the chances of No Deal increase dramatically. From where we are at the moment, they could well be topside of 50%.
Certainly I did not think the EU would interpret Article 50 of the December Agreement as meaning absolutely nothing and to be totally junked and ignored in their version of implementing it. Barnier is completely acting as if that part of the agreement was never written with his notion that barriers on ferries are reasonable.
50. In the absence of agreed solutions, as set out in the previous paragraph, the United Kingdom will ensure that no new regulatory barriers develop between Northern Ireland and the rest of the United Kingdom, unless, consistent with the 1998 Agreement, the Northern Ireland Executive and Assembly agree that distinct arrangements are appropriate for Northern Ireland. In all circumstances, the United Kingdom will continue to ensure the same unfettered access for Northern Ireland's businesses to the whole of the United Kingdom internal market.
OK, leaders only sign something after a couple of hours if (one or more of):
- It doesn't really say anything important; - One side is dictating terms; - One side isn't paying attention; - It was all agreed beforehand
Guesses?
The meeting was all about symbolism, so your point 1 applies, and up to a point so does point 4. But that doesn't make it a waste of time. If there's one thing we know about Trump, it's that he's driven by personal instinct. He seems to have satisfied himself that Kim is on the level, and Kim can reasonably hope that he will impulsively order some concessions on sanctions. We've just seen at the G8 that Trump doesn't go along with vague agreements unless he essentially likes the people he's dealing with.
Yes, but where does that get us? Trump has rehabilitated the Kim regime for a set of aspirations, all of which had been agreed in previous statements.As far as I can tell, the only firm commitment Kim has given is to repatriate the remains of Korean War PoWs and MIAs.
I suspect that Jaguar Land Rover is simply being sensible: they know that - on a five year view - that things will have been sorted out, and therefore being able to invest at a below market price in the UK makes sense (i.e. basing electric car production here).
The electric Jaguar (I-Pace) is built in Austria. In the EU. I assume this is an attempt by JLR to get the build quality of their very important new product to a level slightly above abysmal.
No
Its built there because their UK paint plants were stuffed to capacity and Magna Steyr do subcontract vehicle assembly as they do for other VMs such as BMW.
But nothing to do with the institution of the EU. Don't forget, EU members are and always were sovereign. She should no sooner have consulted us on her non-EU immigration policy as we needed to consult Poland on ours.
Except that's not true. I think you're displaying your ignorance on what "always were sovereign" actually means once more.
Hey guv'nor don't blame me, take it up with the Secretary of State for Exiting the EU.
The SoS has never said it in the way you misinterpret it.
He said it. It's not too tricky a sentence to deconstruct.
The support of all of the governments of the UK, Westminster, Holyrood, Cardiff and Belfast. The unequivocal support of our electronic media. The support of almost all of academia. The abuse of the Treasury by Osborne in particular. An almost endless supply of think tanks and experts who directly or indirectly received funding from the EU and were willing to put their mouth where their money was. More money. Support from Obama and of course the EU. Nigel Farage batting for the other side.
Leave had: A bus. A simple message that people could understand. The frustration and anger directed towards our betters who had refused to take our views for more than 40 years. The rank dishonesty, corruption and anti-democratic nature of the EU.
There must come a point, surely, when remainers recognise that they were trying to sell a shit product. Yes, there were concerns about what the alternative was, yes there was the possibility of some economic consequences, yes we were much more deeply embedded in this monstrosity than our betters had ever let on. But come on, who, fighting for remain, actually managed to come up with a credible positive case for the EU? Certainly not Cameron and Osborne. Clegg came up with nonsense like we haven't had WW3 yet. That was about as credible as it got.
Remain deserved to lose because it was selling shit. Blaming xenophobic lies or Russian bots really misses the point completely.
Ps, Vladimir, I take cheques.
You're missing the point. Leave won. The nature of its victory must now be addressed. So it's not about blaming xenophobic lies, it's about how you incorporate those xenophobic lies into the body politic.
That's why Leave has been so utterly unpersuasive to date - many Remain supporters cannot countenance getting anywhere near that campaign. That's why Leave has floundered in setting a positive agenda or in identifying a future course of action for the country that the EU will work with - all it had were xenophobic lies to secure victory. That's why national newspapers two years on are putting fascist tropes on their front pages to bully MPs into a highly tendentious view of what the referendum vote required.
Until Leavers come to terms with the basis of their own victory, the country will continue in its divided state, on a downward spiral.
Leave won because we really don't like the EU very much. Even many that voted remain don't like it; they were just scared of the consequences. That is what we need to address. We need to leave. Everything else is up for reasonable discussion but bad losers really don't advance the argument. Make the case for a CU. Make the case for membership of the SM. Engage. Don't sit there in the huff accusing people of being xenophobes because they disagreed with you.
The guilt by association arguments are becoming tedious.
I don't care that Putin supports Trump or Brexit, I dont care that Gerry Adams supports Corbyn or Jimmy Saville loved Maggie. That Liam Brady was a Lib Dem, Fred West a Residents Association man, and Noel Edmunds a Green. I dont make up my mind based on who's side I'm on, or which side has the less twats, I make up my mind based on the issues as I understand them. So lets discuss those issues please not the bellends that attach themselves to any cause.
So please I come to Pb (long time lurker) to hear the issues not a tedious 'someone who voted the same way as you is a wrong 'un so that means what you voted is evil.'
Welcome. Nice first post.
Before I will debate with you, however, I need to know the following:
What's your position on Radiohead? And P*n**ppl* on P*zz*?
Remainers need to grapple with the fact that the social class AB was the only class to vote remain.
e Remainers ("a third of the population are putting on Union Jack cufflinks") live in a remote & fantastical world.
Leavers need to grapple with the fact that 48% voted to Remain and at present at best Leave is level pegging on whether it’s a good idea.
Once they have understood that they might comprehend a little more about the country they are living in.
PS Kudos to you for overlords”, but it’s a view I suppose.
chortle
remain lost the vote because they didn't understand their own country
Leave won beo them.
I don't recall leave pandering to international bankers
Yes very droll. Lable facts.
ah the xenophobe bluster
are you happy staying in an EU which has Italy and Malta as members ? Or Mrs Merkel who is now quietly trying to turf out all those immigrants she invited in ?
Er, yes to the Italy andof Brexit we get.
Mrs Merkel is largely the source of henion she should consult her neighbours as to the consequences
she hasnt done any of that.
Agree. Shocking.
But nothing to do with the instit ours.
au contraire
anyone Merkel lets in can come to UK the EU is now threatening countries that refuse to take the people Merkel doesn't want EU money will be used for a crisis Merkel created
In truth she was plain wrong. Cameron's approach of refugee support was correct and is also in line with what war refugees themselves want
What do you mean "can come to"? Anyone "can come to" the UK, just about.
can come by right Mr T as youre well aware and since Germany is currently embroiled in its biggest immigration scandal ever where the Federal Government has massaged the numbers sweetened with a touch of bribery, we have the unedifying spectacle of the offender telling the rest of us we are not communautaire.
I still don't understand. Can a Syrian refugee who arrives in Germany today come straight to the UK? And if so, in what capacity (tourist, future PM, long term leave to remain, etc)?
But nothing to do with the institution of the EU. Don't forget, EU members are and always were sovereign. She should no sooner have consulted us on her non-EU immigration policy as we needed to consult Poland on ours.
Except that's not true. I think you're displaying your ignorance on what "always were sovereign" actually means once more.
Hey guv'nor don't blame me, take it up with the Secretary of State for Exiting the EU.
The SoS has never said it in the way you misinterpret it.
He said it. It's not too tricky a sentence to deconstruct.
I am not following the ins and outs at the moment but am assuming that No Deal is more likely than not. Would that be a fair assessment?
A deal will probably be done in the end, probably essentially on the EU's terms. I'd put the chance of No Deal at no more than 20% and probably lower now.
The time when No Deal was more likely was in the run-up to last December. When the Leavers blinked then, a deal became the great likelihood. We are now just observing the long march towards the negotiated surrender.
I don't think that's true. The only conclusion I can reach from last December is that the brexiteers didn't understand what they'd signed up to. I think that when it's spelled out in black and white, the chances of No Deal increase dramatically. From where we are at the moment, they could well be topside of 50%.
Thank you to you and Mr Meeks. I am more pessimistic than him I must say. I think the chances of No Deal are quite high. Still, I’ve been wrong about everything to do with this referendum so far so what do I know.
Mr. Pulpstar, people making the line that Lee is taking (meaningful vote to re-enter discussions) either don't understand they don't have the power to bind the other side of the negotiating table, or they do and are simply trying to have the potential to force the Government into having to offer another referendum (the deal isn't good enough but it's all there is... we really should consult the people, and hope they give us the 'right' answer this time).
Comments
Jean Claude Juncker wants to destabilise us and there are enough useful idiots here to help
really, we're a small site where the population at large don't read the main article let alone the comments.
make a sensible case
I have only just begun Series 2 of The Bridge.
are you happy staying in an EU which has Italy and Malta as members ? Or Mrs Merkel who is now quietly trying to turf out all those immigrants she invited in ?
https://twitter.com/Pulpstar/status/1006450345483079680
Have western intelligence services been manipulating and secretly funding foreign elections to try and get governments friendly to their aims at least since the 2nd World War? Absolutely.
So, why is one an outrage, but not the other?
I knew -- thanks to Mr Meeks -- how the all-powerful Putin (or as he says Russia) convinced the British people to vote for Brexit and the American people to vote for Trump, but now he has also inspired the Corbynistas as well.
But, wait. You've missed out the Scottish Nationalists ? Didn't Putin fund them as well? Yes ! And the Catalans? Yes, there are claims that Putin funded them too ! What a meddler!
https://tinyurl.com/y98eedtg
https://tinyurl.com/y7uzqlpk
In fact, whenever there is troublesome result from an election, gosh it is all due to Putin!!
The Russians (in Meek-speak) really have replaced the Jews and the Freemasons as the Number One all-powerful cabal that control the world.
for me race wasn't an issue,
do you consider yourself racist because you chose a university witn no black people ?
You could argue that the Remain campaign should also have used these techniques, but I think it's better if campaigns have at least some degree of ethics, or at least are somewhat behind the cutting edge in manipulative dishonesty.
PS There's some suggestion that these people get paid more for comments that get replies. As far as pb discussions go I feel like "what would a Russian sock-puppet account say" is an interesting data point, but people who don't agree might be better off ignoring the obvious ones...
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-12564879
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-13260010
Asked to condemn posters suggesting babies and soldiers' lives would be put at risk if AV was introduced Cameron said: "I choose to support my own campaign, which has not made that argument but the fact is if you move to a new voting system it will cost money."
https://twitter.com/pritipatel4pm/status/1006179052544315392
*least fucked up.
1. she should look after them herself
2. stop trying to foist people on other countries
3. remember that as part of a Union she should consult her neighbours as to the consequences
she hasnt done any of that.
My comments on pb.com today have earned me another dacha.
I'll soon have as many houses as a Remainer.
Fortunately, not in Hungary, though. Because even paid sock puppets have principles!
The black jumper etc.
She doesn't seem to realise that in a few months she won't have the EU to lean on but she'll still have Sid and Doris Bonkers in the White House
But nothing to do with the institution of the EU. Don't forget, EU members are and always were sovereign. She should no sooner have consulted us on her non-EU immigration policy as we needed to consult Poland on ours.
"We live in the sink of Romulus, not the Republic of Plato."
Political campaigning is not fair and chivalrous.
The other thing that's worth saying is that this stuff probably still pales into insignificance compared to decades of deliberately mendacious stories pushed by the domestic right-wing media, much of it owned by rich individuals with their own agendas. The Web Brigades were innovative in pushing purely made-up stories, helped by Facebook's terrible UX that made it hard to distinguish from normal news websites, but there's probably not a huge practical difference between that and tabloid stories that are written to be deliberately misleading, but woven around some true or partly-true facts.
The reason why most people think Brexit is going badly is because its taking so long to implement the will of the People, and because the EU is behaving like a Mafiosi putting so many obstacles in the way. People are frustrated by this. That doesnt mean most people who voted to leave have changed their minds about wanting it to happen. They just want us to get on and do it.
As for most people believing that we will leave the EU -of course we will. All but die hard Remoaners accept this. This is what we voted for. its democracy. Only Remoaners seem to think its ok to ignore democracy.
"We must be mad -literally mad" So now Remoaners are lifting phrases from Enoch Powell's "Rivers of Blood" speech. Like Powell, Remoaners have long been making predictions of apocalyptic disaster, which wont happen.
You know what's coming next? How he got involved in Labour's 2017 GE campaign.
https://twitter.com/DrPhillipLeeMP/status/1006456465886973952
anyone Merkel lets in can come to UK
the EU is now threatening countries that refuse to take the people Merkel doesn't want
EU money will be used for a crisis Merkel created
In truth she was plain wrong. Cameron's approach of refugee support was correct and is also in line with what war refugees themselves want
The same applies to Putin. The connections between some in the Leave campaign and Putin do worry me but I confess that I have not been following the story closely. If laws have been broken prosecutions should follow. But I don’t see that it helps us work out what to do now.
Unlike some on here I think now the referendum was lost before the campaign started. I think there were enough people just waiting for the opportunity to blow a giant raspberry to those in power and the Remain campaign completely failed to understand this or work out a way of dealing with it.
It is all very well for people to complain about the two xenophobic posters. I tend to agree with them. They were not, to put it mildly, pretty.
But it was pretty obvious from the time of the migrant crisis the previous year, if not before, and Germany’s decision to tear up existing treaties, coupled with the various Islamist terrorist atrocities in those years, that the issue of control of borders and, specifically, the issue of whether it was wise to permit mass migration from war torn Muslim countries and/or ones with a history of terrorism would be one which needed addressing. (It still needs addressing.) The government did not address it sensibly. And so people like Farage shamelessly and disgracefully exploited it.
Given that, reportedly, Cameron brough the referendum date forward because he did not want to face another summer migrant crisis, it seems bizarre to me that he did not think hard about how to address the immigration issue sensibly well in advance of the actual campaign. Ceding the ground to his most unscrupulous opponents on this issue was a strategic - and a moral - mistake. (And in my view morality does not just rest with those opposing xenophobia but also with those considering what sort of immigration controls a country should have. I am not one of those who think that there should be no immigration controls at all, whether in law or in practice.)
I am not following the ins and outs at the moment but am assuming that No Deal is more likely than not. Would that be a fair assessment?
The support of all of the governments of the UK, Westminster, Holyrood, Cardiff and Belfast.
The unequivocal support of our electronic media.
The support of almost all of academia.
The abuse of the Treasury by Osborne in particular.
An almost endless supply of think tanks and experts who directly or indirectly received funding from the EU and were willing to put their mouth where their money was.
More money.
Support from Obama and of course the EU.
Nigel Farage batting for the other side.
Leave had:
A bus.
A simple message that people could understand.
The frustration and anger directed towards our betters who had refused to take our views for more than 40 years.
The rank dishonesty, corruption and anti-democratic nature of the EU.
There must come a point, surely, when remainers recognise that they were trying to sell a shit product. Yes, there were concerns about what the alternative was, yes there was the possibility of some economic consequences, yes we were much more deeply embedded in this monstrosity than our betters had ever let on. But come on, who, fighting for remain, actually managed to come up with a credible positive case for the EU? Certainly not Cameron and Osborne. Clegg came up with nonsense like we haven't had WW3 yet. That was about as credible as it got.
Remain deserved to lose because it was selling shit. Blaming xenophobic lies or Russian bots really misses the point completely.
Ps, Vladimir, I take cheques.
https://www.ons.gov.uk/employmentandlabourmarket/peopleinwork/employmentandemployeetypes/bulletins/uklabourmarket/june2018
On the other hand unemployment falls, employment rises and vacancies increase as well.
Pay rises remain subdued with public sector almost as high as private sector.
If we are going to quote past politicians, I suggest Churchill in the movie Darkest Hour
"You cant negotiate with a tiger when your head is in its mouth."
Churchill too was up against people from the British Establishment who believed that it would be a catastrophe if Britain dared to defy a big monolithic European superstate.
I prefer Churchill to Powell.
But hey, Brexit's gonna happen whether you like it or not.
The time when No Deal was more likely was in the run-up to last December. When the Leavers blinked then, a deal became the great likelihood. We are now just observing the long march towards the negotiated surrender.
That's why Leave has been so utterly unpersuasive to date - many Remain supporters cannot countenance getting anywhere near that campaign. That's why Leave has floundered in setting a positive agenda or in identifying a future course of action for the country that the EU will work with - all it had were xenophobic lies to secure victory. That's why national newspapers two years on are putting fascist tropes on their front pages to bully MPs into a highly tendentious view of what the referendum vote required.
Until Leavers come to terms with the basis of their own victory, the country will continue in its divided state, on a downward spiral.
I don't care that Putin supports Trump or Brexit, I dont care that Gerry Adams supports Corbyn or Jimmy Saville loved Maggie. That Liam Brady was a Lib Dem, Fred West a Residents Association man, and Noel Edmunds a Green. I dont make up my mind based on who's side I'm on, or which side has the less twats, I make up my mind based on the issues as I understand them. So lets discuss those issues please not the bellends that attach themselves to any cause.
So please I come to Pb (long time lurker) to hear the issues not a tedious 'someone who voted the same way as you is a wrong 'un so that means what you voted is evil.'
https://twitter.com/DrPhillipLeeMP/status/1006461447357042688
50. In the absence of agreed solutions, as set out in the previous paragraph, the United Kingdom will ensure that no new regulatory barriers develop between Northern Ireland and the rest of the United Kingdom, unless, consistent with the 1998 Agreement, the Northern Ireland Executive and Assembly agree that distinct arrangements are appropriate for Northern Ireland. In all circumstances, the United Kingdom will continue to ensure the same unfettered access for Northern Ireland's businesses to the whole of the United Kingdom internal market.
Its built there because their UK paint plants were stuffed to capacity and Magna Steyr do subcontract vehicle assembly as they do for other VMs such as BMW.
Mr. Thompson, in Josephus' Jewish War, there's quite a lot of Jewish backstabbing (particularly from the Sicarii).
Who is he representing?
Before I will debate with you, however, I need to know the following:
What's your position on Radiohead? And P*n**ppl* on P*zz*?
It could be all bets off.
And dismissed as "Project fear" by Brexiteers who claimed "we have had enough of experts"