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politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » The danger for LAB is that its equivocation over Brexit could be alienating its GE2017 tactical voters

There’s a new YouGov poll out this morning that has LAB down at 37% which equals its lowest share in any public poll since GE2017. That this should happen while the Tories are in almost total internal war over the Brexit negotiations might seem surprising.

Read the full story here

tlg86

First like Colombia.

edmundintokyo

I agree with this although events may make it moot.

It seems to incentivize TMay to string things out. It's a weird situation where the government has gone all Lord of the Flies on each other and the voters don't seem to mind, while the opposition may not be able to survive a polite disagreement.

Philip_Thompson

FPT

Sean_F said:

Philip_Thompson said:

Big_G_NorthWales said:

DavidL said:

AlastairMeeks said:

I thought it was the position of the nut-nuts that MPs shouldn't be controlling the negotiations with the EU?

https://twitter.com/faisalislam/status/1014052300976017408

Sometimes, because I’m an old softy at heart, I feel a tad sorry for Mrs May. Herding cats would be easier than coralling this lot.

There seems to be a growing acceptance that she doing as good as anyone could in the circumstances

Except the circumstances are her fault.

It's her fault she has no majority. It's her fault she's already thrown away the option of calling an early election against Jeremy Corbyn.

Partly her fault. She is surrounded by outsize egos, however.

Sorry but that should go without saying. People don't go into party politics and climb towards the top of the greasy pole by having modest egos. Any party leader worth their salt should be able to handle egos if they can't they're in the wrong industry.

A politician getting sympathy for having to deal with egos is like a swimmer getting sympathy for the pool being wet.

currystar

As I keep saying its becasue of the economy. If unemployment was an issue then the poll results would be vastly different.

AlastairMeeks

tlg86 said:

First like Colombia.

It is not in my nature to ever pick the winning team; sometimes I think I’m happy then I remember it’s a dream.

williamglenn

FPT:

MaxPB said:

williamglenn said:

A slight variation on Edmund's hypothetical:

What if the choice were a delay, or signing a "bridge to nowhere" withdrawal agreement that just contained the divorce bill, citizens rights, NI backstop and a fudged political declaration?

No delay, prepare for no deal Brexit. Cut corporation tax by 3%, hire 10,000 customs officers, serve CPOs to landowners in Dover and other ports, spend £20bn building customs infrastructure and subsidising lengthening of supply chains for industry and slash and burn at City regulation.

Interesting. Why would you take a delay over a guaranteed BINO, but when the choice is delay or get out with the end-point still up for discussion you'd do something different?

TheScreamingEagles

currystar said:

As I keep saying its becasue of the economy. If unemployment was an issue then the poll results would be vastly different.

So that explains why Mrs May is doing whatever to stop a hard/WTO Brexit that would cost so many jobs.

Pulpstar

currystar said:

As I keep saying its becasue of the economy. If unemployment was an issue then the poll results would be vastly different.

Everyone gets to pontificate about their preferred or not version of Brexit whilst being employed.

justin124

Philip_Thompson said:

FPT

Sean_F said:

Philip_Thompson said:

Big_G_NorthWales said:

DavidL said:

AlastairMeeks said:

I thought it was the position of the nut-nuts that MPs shouldn't be controlling the negotiations with the EU?

https://twitter.com/faisalislam/status/1014052300976017408

Sometimes, because I’m an old softy at heart, I feel a tad sorry for Mrs May. Herding cats would be easier than coralling this lot.

There seems to be a growing acceptance that she doing as good as anyone could in the circumstances

Except the circumstances are her fault.

It's her fault she has no majority. It's her fault she's already thrown away the option of calling an early election against Jeremy Corbyn.

Partly her fault. She is surrounded by outsize egos, however.

Sorry but that should go without saying. People don't go into party politics and climb towards the top of the greasy pole by having modest egos. Any party leader worth their salt should be able to handle egos if they can't they're in the wrong industry.

A politician getting sympathy for having to deal with egos is like a swimmer getting sympathy for the pool being wet.

Was that true of Clement Attlee and Alec Douglas-Home?

Stark_Dawning

I doubt Jezza is remotely bothered about the anti-Brexit vote. The man is clearly itching for the hardest possible Brexit for two reasons:

1) The resulting economic misery and chaos will see the Tories hurled from office.
2) He can then build his socialist utopia in Britain unfettered by the neo-liberal restraints of the EU.

He'll probably appoint Rees-Mogg and Farage to his politburo - they've been enormously helpful.

Philip_Thompson

justin124 said:

Philip_Thompson said:

FPT

Sean_F said:

Philip_Thompson said:

Big_G_NorthWales said:

DavidL said:

AlastairMeeks said:

I thought it was the position of the nut-nuts that MPs shouldn't be controlling the negotiations with the EU?

https://twitter.com/faisalislam/status/1014052300976017408

Sometimes, because I’m an old softy at heart, I feel a tad sorry for Mrs May. Herding cats would be easier than coralling this lot.

There seems to be a growing acceptance that she doing as good as anyone could in the circumstances

Except the circumstances are her fault.

It's her fault she has no majority. It's her fault she's already thrown away the option of calling an early election against Jeremy Corbyn.

Partly her fault. She is surrounded by outsize egos, however.

Sorry but that should go without saying. People don't go into party politics and climb towards the top of the greasy pole by having modest egos. Any party leader worth their salt should be able to handle egos if they can't they're in the wrong industry.

A politician getting sympathy for having to deal with egos is like a swimmer getting sympathy for the pool being wet.

Was that true of Clement Attlee and Alec Douglas-Home?

Yes. Different era so portrayed differently (don't forget the amount of deference then too) but still yes.

justin124

My gut feeling is that much of the Tory strength in the polls is illusory - akin to to a party conference or leadership election effect which occurs because other parties have effectively been frozen out. Were an election to be called, however, that would come to an end.

felix

TheScreamingEagles said:

currystar said:

As I keep saying its becasue of the economy. If unemployment was an issue then the poll results would be vastly different.

So that explains why Mrs May is doing whatever to stop a hard/WTO Brexit that would cost so many jobs.

According to you the poll is an outlier - like the other one a couple of weeks ago

JonnyJimmy

AlastairMeeks said:

tlg86 said:

First like Colombia.

It is not in my nature to ever pick the winning team; sometimes I think I’m happy then I remember it’s a dream.

Talking of picking a team, there was a picture up on the BBC world cup build up thread earlier of the 1996 semi final team.

It seems surprisingly attacking, given what we've mostly endured since..

Seaman, Southgate, Adams, Pearce, Ince, Anderton, McManaman, Platt, Gascoigne, Sheringham, Shearer

Did we play 3 at the back, or did a midielder play right back?

El_Capitano

Belatedly noticed this:

https://twitter.com/BBCNews/status/1013899494314926087

"Brexit rebels' threat", ok. Or "Brexit rebels threaten". But not "Brexit rebels threat". In 80pt type on the front page.

I thought Desmond was a cost-cutting oaf but Trinity Mirror (sorry, "Reach") have clearly sent all the subs home.

justin124

Philip_Thompson said:

justin124 said:

Philip_Thompson said:

FPT

Sean_F said:

Philip_Thompson said:

Big_G_NorthWales said:

DavidL said:

AlastairMeeks said:

I thought it was the position of the nut-nuts that MPs shouldn't be controlling the negotiations with the EU?

https://twitter.com/faisalislam/status/1014052300976017408

Sometimes, because I’m an old softy at heart, I feel a tad sorry for Mrs May. Herding cats would be easier than coralling this lot.

There seems to be a growing acceptance that she doing as good as anyone could in the circumstances

Except the circumstances are her fault.

It's her fault she has no majority. It's her fault she's already thrown away the option of calling an early election against Jeremy Corbyn.

Partly her fault. She is surrounded by outsize egos, however.

Sorry but that should go without saying. People don't go into party politics and climb towards the top of the greasy pole by having modest egos. Any party leader worth their salt should be able to handle egos if they can't they're in the wrong industry.

A politician getting sympathy for having to deal with egos is like a swimmer getting sympathy for the pool being wet.

Was that true of Clement Attlee and Alec Douglas-Home?

Yes. Different era so portrayed differently (don't forget the amount of deference then too) but still yes.

I agree re-the deference of the earlier period but am not persuaded that Attlee had a great ego. Churchill suggested he was ' a modest man with much to be modest about'!

Stark_Dawning

justin124 said:

My gut feeling is that much of the Tory strength in the polls is illusory - akin to to a party conference or leadership election effect which occurs because other parties have effectively been frozen out. Were an election to be called, however, that would come to an end.

Yes. I suspect that because the Tories have complete ownership of Brexit, the public has given them a temporary pass for the duration of the project. Once the project is completed, of course, then an assessment will be made and the normal rules of politics will return. If Brexit doesn't turn out well (whatever that means) then it could be curtains.

Philip_Thompson

justin124 said:

Philip_Thompson said:

justin124 said:

Philip_Thompson said:

FPT

Sean_F said:

Philip_Thompson said:

Big_G_NorthWales said:

DavidL said:

AlastairMeeks said:

I thought it was the position of the nut-nuts that MPs shouldn't be controlling the negotiations with the EU?

https://twitter.com/faisalislam/status/1014052300976017408

Sometimes, because I’m an old softy at heart, I feel a tad sorry for Mrs May. Herding cats would be easier than coralling this lot.

There seems to be a growing acceptance that she doing as good as anyone could in the circumstances

Except the circumstances are her fault.

It's her fault she has no majority. It's her fault she's already thrown away the option of calling an early election against Jeremy Corbyn.

Partly her fault. She is surrounded by outsize egos, however.

Sorry but that should go without saying. People don't go into party politics and climb towards the top of the greasy pole by having modest egos. Any party leader worth their salt should be able to handle egos if they can't they're in the wrong industry.

A politician getting sympathy for having to deal with egos is like a swimmer getting sympathy for the pool being wet.

Was that true of Clement Attlee and Alec Douglas-Home?

Yes. Different era so portrayed differently (don't forget the amount of deference then too) but still yes.

I agree re-the deference of the earlier period but am not persuaded that Attlee had a great ego. Churchill suggested he was ' a modest man with much to be modest about'!

It's all relative. Relative to Churchill then Attlee was definitely modest! Relative to the average man on the street then, probably not.

It takes a certain ego to make so many changes to the country as he did.

EDIT: But it was a different era, people who go into politics today with 24/7 news and social media aren't necessarily the same as those who went in previously in a more deferential era.

Philip_Thompson

Stark_Dawning said:

justin124 said:

My gut feeling is that much of the Tory strength in the polls is illusory - akin to to a party conference or leadership election effect which occurs because other parties have effectively been frozen out. Were an election to be called, however, that would come to an end.

Yes. I suspect that because the Tories have complete ownership of Brexit, the public has given them a temporary pass for the duration of the project. Once the project is completed, of course, then an assessment will be made and the normal rules of politics will return. If Brexit doesn't turn out well (whatever that means) then it could be curtains.

What I think it means as well is that for all the heat and fire online and in the media, is that the average person doesn't think it is currently going especially badly.

TheScreamingEagles

JonnyJimmy said:

AlastairMeeks said:

tlg86 said:

First like Colombia.

It is not in my nature to ever pick the winning team; sometimes I think I’m happy then I remember it’s a dream.

Talking of picking a team, there was a picture up on the BBC world cup build up thread earlier of the 1996 semi final team.

It seems surprisingly attacking, given what we've mostly endured since..

Seaman, Southgate, Adams, Pearce, Ince, Anderton, McManaman, Platt, Gascoigne, Sheringham, Shearer

Did we play 3 at the back, or did a midielder play right back?

Three at the back. Ince in front of the defence.

Gary Neville was suspended.

Dura_Ace

MaxPB said:

No delay, prepare for no deal Brexit. Cut corporation tax by 3%, hire 10,000 customs officers, serve CPOs to landowners in Dover and other ports, spend £20bn building customs infrastructure and subsidising lengthening of supply chains for industry and slash and burn at City regulation.

The PB tories have been late converts to the Cult of the Magic Money Tree but now that they have embraced it there is nothing they won't nail to its twisted limbs,

TheScreamingEagles

felix said:

TheScreamingEagles said:

currystar said:

As I keep saying its becasue of the economy. If unemployment was an issue then the poll results would be vastly different.

So that explains why Mrs May is doing whatever to stop a hard/WTO Brexit that would cost so many jobs.

According to you the poll is an outlier - like the other one a couple of weeks ago

But small Tory leads aren’t outliers

Plus it wasn’t a couple of weeks ago it was a month ago.

IanB2

Philip_Thompson said:

Stark_Dawning said:

justin124 said:

My gut feeling is that much of the Tory strength in the polls is illusory - akin to to a party conference or leadership election effect which occurs because other parties have effectively been frozen out. Were an election to be called, however, that would come to an end.

Yes. I suspect that because the Tories have complete ownership of Brexit, the public has given them a temporary pass for the duration of the project. Once the project is completed, of course, then an assessment will be made and the normal rules of politics will return. If Brexit doesn't turn out well (whatever that means) then it could be curtains.

What I think it means as well is that for all the heat and fire online and in the media, is that the average person doesn't think it is currently going especially badly.

There is very little for the average person to go on. The population basically divides into the "something will turn up in the end"-ers and the "we're all doomed"-sters. How it ends will depend on whether anything does turn up or whether we are indeed doomed.

MarqueeMark

Jeremy Corbyn is so Last Year's Thing.

anothernick

Stark_Dawning said:

I doubt Jezza is remotely bothered about the anti-Brexit vote. The man is clearly itching for the hardest possible Brexit for two reasons:

1) The resulting economic misery and chaos will see the Tories hurled from office.
2) He can then build his socialist utopia in Britain unfettered by the neo-liberal restraints of the EU.

He'll probably appoint Rees-Mogg and Farage to his politburo - they've been enormously helpful.

Indeed. Corbyn is the main political winner from the Brexit debacle. if there had been no referendum he would still be a complete no hoper and Labour would be even more divided than the Tories are today.

OchEye

TheScreamingEagles said:

currystar said:

As I keep saying its becasue of the economy. If unemployment was an issue then the poll results would be vastly different.

So that explains why Mrs May is doing whatever to stop a hard/WTO Brexit that would cost so many jobs.

With the low unemployment rate due to so many people on zero hour contracts and having multiple jobs to survive, renting homes and paying council tax, then if there is massive job losses, then it won't be just those out of work who will suffer, it will be the pensioners with rented property portfolio's

justin124

Philip_Thompson said:

justin124 said:

Philip_Thompson said:

justin124 said:

Philip_Thompson said:

FPT

Sean_F said:

Philip_Thompson said:

Big_G_NorthWales said:

DavidL said:

AlastairMeeks said:

I thought it was the position of the nut-nuts that MPs shouldn't be controlling the negotiations with the EU?

https://twitter.com/faisalislam/status/1014052300976017408

Sometimes, because I’m an old softy at heart, I feel a tad sorry for Mrs May. Herding cats would be easier than coralling this lot.

There seems to be a growing acceptance that she doing as good as anyone could in the circumstances

Except the circumstances are her fault.

It's her fault she has no majority. It's her fault she's already thrown away the option of calling an early election against Jeremy Corbyn.

Partly her fault. She is surrounded by outsize egos, however.

Sorry but that should go without saying. People don't go into party politics and climb towards the top of the greasy pole by having modest egos. Any party leader worth their salt should be able to handle egos if they can't they're in the wrong industry.

A politician getting sympathy for having to deal with egos is like a swimmer getting sympathy for the pool being wet.

Was that true of Clement Attlee and Alec Douglas-Home?

Yes. Different era so portrayed differently (don't forget the amount of deference then too) but still yes.

I agree re-the deference of the earlier period but am not persuaded that Attlee had a great ego. Churchill suggested he was ' a modest man with much to be modest about'!

It's all relative. Relative to Churchill then Attlee was definitely modest! Relative to the average man on the street then, probably not.

It takes a certain ego to make so many changes to the country as he did.

EDIT: But it was a different era, people who go into politics today with 24/7 news and social media aren't necessarily the same as those who went in previously in a more deferential era.

I agree with your last point entirely, but tend to the view that the massive changes brought about by the Attlee Government owed a great deal to the drive of the much stronger personalities surrounding him - Bevin - Morrison - Bevan - Dalton - Cripps.Attlee himself was a much more modest figure who - as a very good chairman - was able to keep those egos together. Quite difficult to imagine him as PM today - though Douglas-Home and - indeed - Theresa May come closest!

Tissue_Price

AlastairMeeks said:

tlg86 said:

First like Colombia.

It is not in my nature to ever pick the winning team; sometimes I think I’m happy then I remember it’s a dream.

Perhaps we will see a New England this evening.

TheScreamingEagles

OchEye said:

TheScreamingEagles said:

currystar said:

As I keep saying its becasue of the economy. If unemployment was an issue then the poll results would be vastly different.

So that explains why Mrs May is doing whatever to stop a hard/WTO Brexit that would cost so many jobs.

With the low unemployment rate due to so many people on zero hour contracts and having multiple jobs to survive, renting homes and paying council tax, then if there is massive job losses, then it won't be just those out of work who will suffer, it will be the pensioners with rented property portfolio's

And here’s the reality versus your fake news.

https://twitter.com/frasernelson/status/1013497661121589248?s=21

MarqueeMark

Tissue_Price said:

AlastairMeeks said:

tlg86 said:

First like Colombia.

It is not in my nature to ever pick the winning team; sometimes I think I’m happy then I remember it’s a dream.

Perhaps we will see a New England this evening.

Or An Accident Waiting To Happen.....

HYUFD

Interesting the new Yougov has the Tories unchanged on GE17 and still on 42% but Labour are down 2% from 39% to 37% while the LDs are up 2% from 7% to 9%.

That suggests some Labour Remainers have now moved to the LDs

HYUFD

Stark_Dawning said:

I doubt Jezza is remotely bothered about the anti-Brexit vote. The man is clearly itching for the hardest possible Brexit for two reasons:

1) The resulting economic misery and chaos will see the Tories hurled from office.
2) He can then build his socialist utopia in Britain unfettered by the neo-liberal restraints of the EU.

He'll probably appoint Rees-Mogg and Farage to his politburo - they've been enormously helpful.

On what basis? Hard Brexiteers would stick to the Tories but some Remainer Labour voters would shift LD and Remainer Tories would still not touch Corbyn with a bargepole.

Though I agree hard Brexit would suit the socialism he wants to implement in government just fine

Yorkcity

justin124 said:

My gut feeling is that much of the Tory strength in the polls is illusory - akin to to a party conference or leadership election effect which occurs because other parties have effectively been frozen out. Were an election to be called, however, that would come to an end.

I agree , to many Brexit means differing parts within the Conservative Party .Other parties are sidelined.
A general election campaign makes other issues more prominent.
Most people do not take any interest in the daily , manifestations of the Tory party , unless it directly effects them or their family personally.

No one I know brings it up in conversation apart from last Christmas , when at a works event.One person spoke and said I presume every one here voted leave, there was a deathly silence , then people started to mumble , then carried on talking about anything but.
Amazed me he thought that was the case living in York Central which is very heavily remain.
A dipstick in my opinion bringing it up at such a gathering.

FrancisUrquhart

TheScreamingEagles said:

OchEye said:

TheScreamingEagles said:

currystar said:

As I keep saying its becasue of the economy. If unemployment was an issue then the poll results would be vastly different.

So that explains why Mrs May is doing whatever to stop a hard/WTO Brexit that would cost so many jobs.

With the low unemployment rate due to so many people on zero hour contracts and having multiple jobs to survive, renting homes and paying council tax, then if there is massive job losses, then it won't be just those out of work who will suffer, it will be the pensioners with rented property portfolio's

And here’s the reality versus your fake news.

twitter.com/frasernelson/status/1013497661121589248?s=21

Also we know that a significant proportion on "zero hour contracts" are actually extremely well paid and top rate tax payers.

Scott_P

https://twitter.com/helenlewis/status/1014114777847693312

SquareRoot

El_Capitano said:

Belatedly noticed this:

https://twitter.com/BBCNews/status/1013899494314926087

"Brexit rebels' threat", ok. Or "Brexit rebels threaten". But not "Brexit rebels threat". In 80pt type on the front page.

I thought Desmond was a cost-cutting oaf but Trinity Mirror (sorry, "Reach") have clearly sent all the subs home.

Wind and piss..

TheScreamingEagles

HYUFD said:

Stark_Dawning said:

I doubt Jezza is remotely bothered about the anti-Brexit vote. The man is clearly itching for the hardest possible Brexit for two reasons:

1) The resulting economic misery and chaos will see the Tories hurled from office.
2) He can then build his socialist utopia in Britain unfettered by the neo-liberal restraints of the EU.

He'll probably appoint Rees-Mogg and Farage to his politburo - they've been enormously helpful.

On what basis? Hard Brexiteers would stick to the Tories but some Remainer Labour voters would shift LD and Remainer Tories would still not touch Corbyn with a bargepole.

Though I agree hard Brexit would suit the socialism he wants to implement in government just fine

Some Tories could just sit at home.

Around 2 million Tories did just that in 1997.

tlg86

Scott_P said:

https://twitter.com/helenlewis/status/1014114777847693312

Why was Ken not affiliated to Labour?

Philip_Thompson

justin124 said:

I agree with your last point entirely, but tend to the view that the massive changes brought about by the Attlee Government owed a great deal to the drive of the much stronger personalities surrounding him - Bevin - Morrison - Bevan - Dalton - Cripps.Attlee himself was a much more modest figure who - as a very good chairman - was able to keep those egos together. Quite difficult to imagine him as PM today - though Douglas-Home and - indeed - Theresa May come closest!

That's the point though. @Sean_F said that May is surrounded by outsized egos and I was saying that top politicians in general are outsized egos and a leader needs to be able to handle them.

As you've said and I agree Attlee's cabinet had very strong personalities. Bevin etc weren't lacking in ego. Attlee was able to handle them well though. May is not.

TheScreamingEagles

https://twitter.com/paulmcclean/status/1013855159812788224?s=21

Scott_P

https://twitter.com/George_Osborne/status/1014095098265718786

Philip_Thompson

tlg86 said:

Scott_P said:

https://twitter.com/helenlewis/status/1014114777847693312

Why was Ken not affiliated to Labour?

And what's an "evel regime"? Was Hitler's sin that he backed english votes for english laws?

swing_voter

Yorkcity said:

justin124 said:

My gut feeling is that much of the Tory strength in the polls is illusory - akin to to a party conference or leadership election effect which occurs because other parties have effectively been frozen out. Were an election to be called, however, that would come to an end.

I agree , to many Brexit means differing parts within the Conservative Party .Other parties are sidelined.
A general election campaign makes other issues more prominent.
Most people do not take any interest in the daily , manifestations of the Tory party , unless it directly effects them or their family personally.

No one I know brings it up in conversation apart from last Christmas , when at a works event.One person spoke and said I presume every one here voted leave, there was a deathly silence , then people started to mumble , then carried on talking about anything but.
Amazed me he thought that was the case living in York Central which is very heavily remain.
A dipstick in my opinion bringing it up at such a gathering.

very interesting, BREXIT the biggest taboo at a social event of differing folk - even in family gatherings now it is like an family embarassment........we all know who voted what, when will the awkwardness end?

AlastairMeeks

Philip_Thompson said:

justin124 said:

I agree with your last point entirely, but tend to the view that the massive changes brought about by the Attlee Government owed a great deal to the drive of the much stronger personalities surrounding him - Bevin - Morrison - Bevan - Dalton - Cripps.Attlee himself was a much more modest figure who - as a very good chairman - was able to keep those egos together. Quite difficult to imagine him as PM today - though Douglas-Home and - indeed - Theresa May come closest!

That's the point though. @Sean_F said that May is surrounded by outsized egos and I was saying that top politicians in general are outsized egos and a leader needs to be able to handle them.

As you've said and I agree Attlee's cabinet had very strong personalities. Bevin etc weren't lacking in ego. Attlee was able to handle them well though. May is not.

Campbell-Bannerman is probably the ultimate example. An almost-forgotten Prime Minister who had Churchill, Lloyd George and Asquith in his Cabinet and managed to run an efficient government.

Pulpstar

Scott_P said:

https://twitter.com/George_Osborne/status/1014095098265718786

That's the most unpleasent cartoon I've seen in a while.

felix

Yorkcity said:

justin124 said:

My gut feeling is that much of the Tory strength in the polls is illusory - akin to to a party conference or leadership election effect which occurs because other parties have effectively been frozen out. Were an election to be called, however, that would come to an end.

I agree , to many Brexit means differing parts within the Conservative Party .Other parties are sidelined.
A general election campaign makes other issues more prominent.
Most people do not take any interest in the daily , manifestations of the Tory party , unless it directly effects them or their family personally.

No one I know brings it up in conversation apart from last Christmas , when at a works event.One person spoke and said I presume every one here voted leave, there was a deathly silence , then people started to mumble , then carried on talking about anything but.
Amazed me he thought that was the case living in York Central which is very heavily remain.
A dipstick in my opinion bringing it up at such a gathering.

Yup - gut feelings are always more reliable than polling - especially when the polling is against your pov.

Casino_Royale

AlastairMeeks said:

tlg86 said:

First like Colombia.

It is not in my nature to ever pick the winning team; sometimes I think I’m happy then I remember it’s a dream.

I have a rule: I don’t bet on things i don’t understand.

I know nothing about football.

Benpointer

swing_voter said:

Yorkcity said:

justin124 said:

My gut feeling is that much of the Tory strength in the polls is illusory - akin to to a party conference or leadership election effect which occurs because other parties have effectively been frozen out. Were an election to be called, however, that would come to an end.

I agree , to many Brexit means differing parts within the Conservative Party .Other parties are sidelined.
A general election campaign makes other issues more prominent.
Most people do not take any interest in the daily , manifestations of the Tory party , unless it directly effects them or their family personally.

No one I know brings it up in conversation apart from last Christmas , when at a works event.One person spoke and said I presume every one here voted leave, there was a deathly silence , then people started to mumble , then carried on talking about anything but.
Amazed me he thought that was the case living in York Central which is very heavily remain.
A dipstick in my opinion bringing it up at such a gathering.

very interesting, BREXIT the biggest taboo at a social event of differing folk - even in family gatherings now it is like an family embarassment........we all know who voted what, when will the awkwardness end?

Yeah I've noticed that too. We can debate it endlessly here but mentioning Brexit at a social gathering is likely to be less popular than if you asked who's got piles.

anothernick

HYUFD said:

Stark_Dawning said:

I doubt Jezza is remotely bothered about the anti-Brexit vote. The man is clearly itching for the hardest possible Brexit for two reasons:

1) The resulting economic misery and chaos will see the Tories hurled from office.
2) He can then build his socialist utopia in Britain unfettered by the neo-liberal restraints of the EU.

He'll probably appoint Rees-Mogg and Farage to his politburo - they've been enormously helpful.

On what basis? Hard Brexiteers would stick to the Tories but some Remainer Labour voters would shift LD and Remainer Tories would still not touch Corbyn with a bargepole.

Though I agree hard Brexit would suit the socialism he wants to implement in government just fine

FWIW I think that a general election now would result in significant remainer tactical voting which would benefit Labour in some seats and the LDs in others. Considerable pressure would be put on Labour candidates to commit to a referendum on the exit deal and many would go down this route as it would help remainers in leave constituencies square their own views with those of their voters.

HYUFD

AlastairMeeks said:

Philip_Thompson said:

justin124 said:

I agree with your last point entirely, but tend to the view that the massive changes brought about by the Attlee Government owed a great deal to the drive of the much stronger personalities surrounding him - Bevin - Morrison - Bevan - Dalton - Cripps.Attlee himself was a much more modest figure who - as a very good chairman - was able to keep those egos together. Quite difficult to imagine him as PM today - though Douglas-Home and - indeed - Theresa May come closest!

That's the point though. @Sean_F said that May is surrounded by outsized egos and I was saying that top politicians in general are outsized egos and a leader needs to be able to handle them.

As you've said and I agree Attlee's cabinet had very strong personalities. Bevin etc weren't lacking in ego. Attlee was able to handle them well though. May is not.

Campbell-Bannerman is probably the ultimate example. An almost-forgotten Prime Minister who had Churchill, Lloyd George and Asquith in his Cabinet and managed to run an efficient government.

And whose great nephew David Campbell Bannermann is a prominent Brexiteer and Tory MEP

HYUFD

TheScreamingEagles said:

HYUFD said:

Stark_Dawning said:

I doubt Jezza is remotely bothered about the anti-Brexit vote. The man is clearly itching for the hardest possible Brexit for two reasons:

1) The resulting economic misery and chaos will see the Tories hurled from office.
2) He can then build his socialist utopia in Britain unfettered by the neo-liberal restraints of the EU.

He'll probably appoint Rees-Mogg and Farage to his politburo - they've been enormously helpful.

On what basis? Hard Brexiteers would stick to the Tories but some Remainer Labour voters would shift LD and Remainer Tories would still not touch Corbyn with a bargepole.

Though I agree hard Brexit would suit the socialism he wants to implement in government just fine

Some Tories could just sit at home.

Around 2 million Tories did just that in 1997.

They are more likely to sit at home if it is BINO and the Labour vote rose 2 million too from 1992 to 1997

williamglenn

Benpointer said:

swing_voter said:

Yorkcity said:

justin124 said:

My gut feeling is that much of the Tory strength in the polls is illusory - akin to to a party conference or leadership election effect which occurs because other parties have effectively been frozen out. Were an election to be called, however, that would come to an end.

I agree , to many Brexit means differing parts within the Conservative Party .Other parties are sidelined.
A general election campaign makes other issues more prominent.
Most people do not take any interest in the daily , manifestations of the Tory party , unless it directly effects them or their family personally.

No one I know brings it up in conversation apart from last Christmas , when at a works event.One person spoke and said I presume every one here voted leave, there was a deathly silence , then people started to mumble , then carried on talking about anything but.
Amazed me he thought that was the case living in York Central which is very heavily remain.
A dipstick in my opinion bringing it up at such a gathering.

very interesting, BREXIT the biggest taboo at a social event of differing folk - even in family gatherings now it is like an family embarassment........we all know who voted what, when will the awkwardness end?

Yeah I've noticed that too. We can debate it endlessly here but mentioning Brexit at a social gathering is likely to be less popular than if you asked who's got piles.

In a second referendum there could well be an unspoken pact among the population to vote Remain and never speak of Brexit again.

AlastairMeeks

I hadn't realised that Mark Reckless had re-ratted to the Conservatives again:

https://www.newstatesman.com/politics/staggers/2018/07/what-four-party-leadership-contests-reveal-about-welsh-politics

TOPPING

HYUFD said:

Stark_Dawning said:

I doubt Jezza is remotely bothered about the anti-Brexit vote. The man is clearly itching for the hardest possible Brexit for two reasons:

1) The resulting economic misery and chaos will see the Tories hurled from office.
2) He can then build his socialist utopia in Britain unfettered by the neo-liberal restraints of the EU.

He'll probably appoint Rees-Mogg and Farage to his politburo - they've been enormously helpful.

On what basis? Hard Brexiteers would stick to the Tories but some Remainer Labour voters would shift LD and Remainer Tories would still not touch Corbyn with a bargepole.

Though I agree hard Brexit would suit the socialism he wants to implement in government just fine

I know that plenty of Remainer Tories voted for Corbyn because I canvassed 100s of them last year.

TheScreamingEagles

HYUFD said:

TheScreamingEagles said:

HYUFD said:

Stark_Dawning said:

I doubt Jezza is remotely bothered about the anti-Brexit vote. The man is clearly itching for the hardest possible Brexit for two reasons:

1) The resulting economic misery and chaos will see the Tories hurled from office.
2) He can then build his socialist utopia in Britain unfettered by the neo-liberal restraints of the EU.

He'll probably appoint Rees-Mogg and Farage to his politburo - they've been enormously helpful.

On what basis? Hard Brexiteers would stick to the Tories but some Remainer Labour voters would shift LD and Remainer Tories would still not touch Corbyn with a bargepole.

Though I agree hard Brexit would suit the socialism he wants to implement in government just fine

Some Tories could just sit at home.

Around 2 million Tories did just that in 1997.

They are more likely to sit at home if it is BINO and the Labour vote rose 2 million too from 1992 to 1997

Yes circa 2 million Tories switched to Labour and circa 2 million stayed at home.

Is why the Tory vote went down by over 4 million.

OchEye

TheScreamingEagles said:

OchEye said:

TheScreamingEagles said:

currystar said:

As I keep saying its becasue of the economy. If unemployment was an issue then the poll results would be vastly different.

So that explains why Mrs May is doing whatever to stop a hard/WTO Brexit that would cost so many jobs.

With the low unemployment rate due to so many people on zero hour contracts and having multiple jobs to survive, renting homes and paying council tax, then if there is massive job losses, then it won't be just those out of work who will suffer, it will be the pensioners with rented property portfolio's

And here’s the reality versus your fake news.

https://twitter.com/frasernelson/status/1013497661121589248?s=21

If those figures are correct then why are there so many food banks, why are so many on zero hour contracts, why do so many employers rely on staff getting top ups from the state (you, me, and all the other tax payers)? And yes, there are many people now, who have 2 or some times 3 full and part time jobs (though goodness only knows how they do it). Too many have zero savings and are living on a week to week basis - if or more likely when, everything goes titsup, then it won't be just them who will be affected, the rented property market will take a massive hit, banks and mortgage suppliers will be hit. When you think about it, government claims of low unemployment /high employment, then where do you get the people to do the jobs that are necessary ,in the NHS ,Social Services, the military and police and all the areas which are now short staffed and are unable to recruit.

TheScreamingEagles

AlastairMeeks said:

I hadn't realised that Mark Reckless had re-ratted to the Conservatives again:

https://www.newstatesman.com/politics/staggers/2018/07/what-four-party-leadership-contests-reveal-about-welsh-politics

He’s not an official Tory. Just sits with them, he’s not a member of the party.

Mrs May was very clear in not letting back Carswell and Reckless.

HYUFD

TheScreamingEagles said:

HYUFD said:

TheScreamingEagles said:

HYUFD said:

Stark_Dawning said:

I doubt Jezza is remotely bothered about the anti-Brexit vote. The man is clearly itching for the hardest possible Brexit for two reasons:

1) The resulting economic misery and chaos will see the Tories hurled from office.
2) He can then build his socialist utopia in Britain unfettered by the neo-liberal restraints of the EU.

He'll probably appoint Rees-Mogg and Farage to his politburo - they've been enormously helpful.

On what basis? Hard Brexiteers would stick to the Tories but some Remainer Labour voters would shift LD and Remainer Tories would still not touch Corbyn with a bargepole.

Though I agree hard Brexit would suit the socialism he wants to implement in government just fine

Some Tories could just sit at home.

Around 2 million Tories did just that in 1997.

They are more likely to sit at home if it is BINO and the Labour vote rose 2 million too from 1992 to 1997

Yes circa 2 million Tories switched to Labour and circa 2 million stayed at home.

Is why the Tory vote went down by over 4 million.

The Referendum Party and UKIP got 900 000 votes combined in 1997 too so more Tories switched to other parties from 1992 to 1997 than voted in 1992 but stayed home in 1997

justin124

Philip_Thompson said:

justin124 said:

I agree with your last point entirely, but tend to the view that the massive changes brought about by the Attlee Government owed a great deal to the drive of the much stronger personalities surrounding him - Bevin - Morrison - Bevan - Dalton - Cripps.Attlee himself was a much more modest figure who - as a very good chairman - was able to keep those egos together. Quite difficult to imagine him as PM today - though Douglas-Home and - indeed - Theresa May come closest!

That's the point though. @Sean_F said that May is surrounded by outsized egos and I was saying that top politicians in general are outsized egos and a leader needs to be able to handle them.

As you've said and I agree Attlee's cabinet had very strong personalities. Bevin etc weren't lacking in ego. Attlee was able to handle them well though. May is not.

To be fair to May though, I am not sure that the Tory Government is capable of being led by anyone at present! Attlee was never faced with a Brexit -type fissure running through his Administration. The closest he came to that was the row over NHS cuts in the wake of the Korean War in 1951 - and he only survived in office for a few months thereafter.

HYUFD

TOPPING said:

HYUFD said:

Stark_Dawning said:

I doubt Jezza is remotely bothered about the anti-Brexit vote. The man is clearly itching for the hardest possible Brexit for two reasons:

1) The resulting economic misery and chaos will see the Tories hurled from office.
2) He can then build his socialist utopia in Britain unfettered by the neo-liberal restraints of the EU.

He'll probably appoint Rees-Mogg and Farage to his politburo - they've been enormously helpful.

On what basis? Hard Brexiteers would stick to the Tories but some Remainer Labour voters would shift LD and Remainer Tories would still not touch Corbyn with a bargepole.

Though I agree hard Brexit would suit the socialism he wants to implement in government just fine

I know that plenty of Remainer Tories voted for Corbyn because I canvassed 100s of them last year.

Yes they will vote Tory to keep out Corbyn regardless of Brexit

Dura_Ace

Benpointer said:

Yeah I've noticed that too. We can debate it endlessly here but mentioning Brexit at a social gathering is likely to be less popular than if you asked who's got piles.

In 10 years time finding someone who will admit to voting leave is going to be like finding somebody who thought Iraq II was a good idea now.

swing_voter

TheScreamingEagles said:

AlastairMeeks said:

I hadn't realised that Mark Reckless had re-ratted to the Conservatives again:

https://www.newstatesman.com/politics/staggers/2018/07/what-four-party-leadership-contests-reveal-about-welsh-politics

He’s not an official Tory. Just sits with them, he’s not a member of the party.

Mrs May was very clear in not letting back Carswell and Reckless.

and we all know how her word is final......................

AlastairMeeks

TheScreamingEagles said:

AlastairMeeks said:

I hadn't realised that Mark Reckless had re-ratted to the Conservatives again:

https://www.newstatesman.com/politics/staggers/2018/07/what-four-party-leadership-contests-reveal-about-welsh-politics

He’s not an official Tory. Just sits with them, he’s not a member of the party.

Mrs May was very clear in not letting back Carswell and Reckless.

Just imagine being a rat that isn't allowed to rejoin a sinking ship.

Mortimer

HYUFD said:

AlastairMeeks said:

Philip_Thompson said:

justin124 said:

I agree with your last point entirely, but tend to the view that the massive changes brought about by the Attlee Government owed a great deal to the drive of the much stronger personalities surrounding him - Bevin - Morrison - Bevan - Dalton - Cripps.Attlee himself was a much more modest figure who - as a very good chairman - was able to keep those egos together. Quite difficult to imagine him as PM today - though Douglas-Home and - indeed - Theresa May come closest!

That's the point though. @Sean_F said that May is surrounded by outsized egos and I was saying that top politicians in general are outsized egos and a leader needs to be able to handle them.

As you've said and I agree Attlee's cabinet had very strong personalities. Bevin etc weren't lacking in ego. Attlee was able to handle them well though. May is not.

Campbell-Bannerman is probably the ultimate example. An almost-forgotten Prime Minister who had Churchill, Lloyd George and Asquith in his Cabinet and managed to run an efficient government.

And whose great nephew David Campbell Bannermann is a prominent Brexiteer and Tory MEP

And currently doing a sterling job trying to amend the half-arsed piece of pointless legislation that the EU have planned to restrict the import of antiques into the EU.

Casino_Royale

Benpointer said:

swing_voter said:

Yorkcity said:

justin124 said:

My gut feeling is that much of the Tory strength in the polls is illusory - akin to to a party conference or leadership election effect which occurs because other parties have effectively been frozen out. Were an election to be called, however, that would come to an end.

I agree , to many Brexit means differing parts within the Conservative Party .Other parties are sidelined.
A general election campaign makes other issues more prominent.
Most people do not take any interest in the daily , manifestations of the Tory party , unless it directly effects them or their family personally.

No one I know brings it up in conversation apart from last Christmas , when at a works event.One person spoke and said I presume every one here voted leave, there was a deathly silence , then people started to mumble , then carried on talking about anything but.
Amazed me he thought that was the case living in York Central which is very heavily remain.
A dipstick in my opinion bringing it up at such a gathering.

very interesting, BREXIT the biggest taboo at a social event of differing folk - even in family gatherings now it is like an family embarassment........we all know who voted what, when will the awkwardness end?

Yeah I've noticed that too. We can debate it endlessly here but mentioning Brexit at a social gathering is likely to be less popular than if you asked who's got piles.

I think many people are shocked that their considered opinion that they expressed in the 2016 referendum has become so divisive and bitter.

It’s a minority who react that badly, but it can sometimes be better to keep quiet and change the subject.

Pulpstar

TheScreamingEagles said:

AlastairMeeks said:

I hadn't realised that Mark Reckless had re-ratted to the Conservatives again:

https://www.newstatesman.com/politics/staggers/2018/07/what-four-party-leadership-contests-reveal-about-welsh-politics

He’s not an official Tory. Just sits with them, he’s not a member of the party.

Mrs May was very clear in not letting back Carswell and Reckless.

Why isn't Carswell allowed back ? There'll be loads of councillors that have gone Con -> UKIP -> Con.

justin124

AlastairMeeks said:

Philip_Thompson said:

justin124 said:

I agree with your last point entirely, but tend to the view that the massive changes brought about by the Attlee Government owed a great deal to the drive of the much stronger personalities surrounding him - Bevin - Morrison - Bevan - Dalton - Cripps.Attlee himself was a much more modest figure who - as a very good chairman - was able to keep those egos together. Quite difficult to imagine him as PM today - though Douglas-Home and - indeed - Theresa May come closest!

That's the point though. @Sean_F said that May is surrounded by outsized egos and I was saying that top politicians in general are outsized egos and a leader needs to be able to handle them.

As you've said and I agree Attlee's cabinet had very strong personalities. Bevin etc weren't lacking in ego. Attlee was able to handle them well though. May is not.

Campbell-Bannerman is probably the ultimate example. An almost-forgotten Prime Minister who had Churchill, Lloyd George and Asquith in his Cabinet and managed to run an efficient government.

Churchill did not actually enter the Cabinet until Asquith succeeded Campbell- Bannerman in Spring 1908. He became President of the Board of Trade having previously been Undersecretary for the Colonies. In that pre-1918 era MPs elevated to Cabinet office were required to resign their seats and fight a by election to gain the assent of their constituents.. Churchill lost his Manchester seat to the Tories , and had to fight a second by election to become one of the two MPs for Dundee.

Benpointer

Dura_Ace said:

Benpointer said:

Yeah I've noticed that too. We can debate it endlessly here but mentioning Brexit at a social gathering is likely to be less popular than if you asked who's got piles.

In 10 years time finding someone who will admit to voting leave is going to be like finding somebody who thought Iraq II was a good idea now.

Very true.

TOPPING

.

HYUFD said:

TOPPING said:

HYUFD said:

Stark_Dawning said:

I doubt Jezza is remotely bothered about the anti-Brexit vote. The man is clearly itching for the hardest possible Brexit for two reasons:

1) The resulting economic misery and chaos will see the Tories hurled from office.
2) He can then build his socialist utopia in Britain unfettered by the neo-liberal restraints of the EU.

He'll probably appoint Rees-Mogg and Farage to his politburo - they've been enormously helpful.

On what basis? Hard Brexiteers would stick to the Tories but some Remainer Labour voters would shift LD and Remainer Tories would still not touch Corbyn with a bargepole.

Though I agree hard Brexit would suit the socialism he wants to implement in government just fine

I know that plenty of Remainer Tories voted for Corbyn because I canvassed 100s of them last year.

Yes they will vote Tory to keep out Corbyn regardless of Brexit

What are you talking about? They voted Labour at last year's GE. They didn't vote Tory. ie unTory. No Tory. Nil Tory.

ExiledInScotland

I just wanted to thank AndyJS for putting the link up to the Jonathan Meades Belgium 'documentary' yesterday. I had not encountered him before. I am like a cat in catnip on youtube at the moment.

TheScreamingEagles

Pulpstar said:

TheScreamingEagles said:

AlastairMeeks said:

I hadn't realised that Mark Reckless had re-ratted to the Conservatives again:

https://www.newstatesman.com/politics/staggers/2018/07/what-four-party-leadership-contests-reveal-about-welsh-politics

He’s not an official Tory. Just sits with them, he’s not a member of the party.

Mrs May was very clear in not letting back Carswell and Reckless.

Why isn't Carswell allowed back ? There'll be loads of councillors that have gone Con -> UKIP -> Con.

Across the party there's anger and genuine bile aimed at Reckless defecting and Carswell encouraging that defection and the timing therein.

It was the day before the last Tory conference before the general election and those two shitbags were also trying to persuade more Tory MPs to defect on the day of Dave's speech thus derailing the Tory conference.

That level of betrayal can never be forgiven.

williamglenn

TOPPING said:

.

HYUFD said:

TOPPING said:

HYUFD said:

Stark_Dawning said:

I doubt Jezza is remotely bothered about the anti-Brexit vote. The man is clearly itching for the hardest possible Brexit for two reasons:

1) The resulting economic misery and chaos will see the Tories hurled from office.
2) He can then build his socialist utopia in Britain unfettered by the neo-liberal restraints of the EU.

He'll probably appoint Rees-Mogg and Farage to his politburo - they've been enormously helpful.

On what basis? Hard Brexiteers would stick to the Tories but some Remainer Labour voters would shift LD and Remainer Tories would still not touch Corbyn with a bargepole.

Though I agree hard Brexit would suit the socialism he wants to implement in government just fine

I know that plenty of Remainer Tories voted for Corbyn because I canvassed 100s of them last year.

Yes they will vote Tory to keep out Corbyn regardless of Brexit

What are you talking about? They voted Labour at last year's GE. They didn't vote Tory. ie unTory. No Tory. Nil Tory.

I would love to see HYUFD canvassing such people. He probably wouldn't believe the were Tory voters in the first place.

TheScreamingEagles

https://twitter.com/TSEofPB/status/1014123754077728774

Pulpstar

TheScreamingEagles said:

Pulpstar said:

TheScreamingEagles said:

AlastairMeeks said:

I hadn't realised that Mark Reckless had re-ratted to the Conservatives again:

https://www.newstatesman.com/politics/staggers/2018/07/what-four-party-leadership-contests-reveal-about-welsh-politics

He’s not an official Tory. Just sits with them, he’s not a member of the party.

Mrs May was very clear in not letting back Carswell and Reckless.

Why isn't Carswell allowed back ? There'll be loads of councillors that have gone Con -> UKIP -> Con.

Across the party there's anger and genuine bile aimed at Reckless defecting and Carswell encouraging that defection and the timing therein.

It was the day before the last Tory conference before the general election and those two shitbags were also trying to persuade more Tory MPs to defect on the day of Dave's speech thus derailing the Tory conference.

That level of betrayal can never be forgiven.

I know Carswell and his constituents were all for Brexit, but he always seemed like a bit of an odd fit for a constituency that includes Jaywick Sands.

Philip_Thompson

williamglenn said:

TOPPING said:

.

HYUFD said:

TOPPING said:

HYUFD said:

Stark_Dawning said:

I doubt Jezza is remotely bothered about the anti-Brexit vote. The man is clearly itching for the hardest possible Brexit for two reasons:

1) The resulting economic misery and chaos will see the Tories hurled from office.
2) He can then build his socialist utopia in Britain unfettered by the neo-liberal restraints of the EU.

He'll probably appoint Rees-Mogg and Farage to his politburo - they've been enormously helpful.

On what basis? Hard Brexiteers would stick to the Tories but some Remainer Labour voters would shift LD and Remainer Tories would still not touch Corbyn with a bargepole.

Though I agree hard Brexit would suit the socialism he wants to implement in government just fine

I know that plenty of Remainer Tories voted for Corbyn because I canvassed 100s of them last year.

Yes they will vote Tory to keep out Corbyn regardless of Brexit

What are you talking about? They voted Labour at last year's GE. They didn't vote Tory. ie unTory. No Tory. Nil Tory.

I would love to see HYUFD canvassing such people. He probably wouldn't believe the were Tory voters in the first place.

I don't. The Tory vote went up by 2.3 million votes between 2015 and 2017. I don't believe any significant number of Tory votes switched to Corbyn.

Sandpit

Pulpstar said:

TheScreamingEagles said:

AlastairMeeks said:

I hadn't realised that Mark Reckless had re-ratted to the Conservatives again:

https://www.newstatesman.com/politics/staggers/2018/07/what-four-party-leadership-contests-reveal-about-welsh-politics

He’s not an official Tory. Just sits with them, he’s not a member of the party.

Mrs May was very clear in not letting back Carswell and Reckless.

Why isn't Carswell allowed back ? There'll be loads of councillors that have gone Con -> UKIP -> Con.

Carswell I’d let back, he’s laid low for a while and served his penance.

Mark Reckless - what an appropriate name - will (metaphorically) swing from a lamp post in Parliament Square before he’ll be allowed near the Conservative party ever again!

williamglenn

.

Charles

@not_on_fire FPT

Re: Obama’s immigration policy

It was neutral from the perspective of Trump Ca Obama. I don’t have a vote in the US but would likely have voted for Johnson in the absence of a moderate republican. I’d probably be a RINO or a centrist Democrat (never taken the time to figure out which)

What it was s comment on was the hypocrisy of the social media acolytes and their sponsors in the media who get outraged about the latest cause celebre but don’t care enough to try and figure out solutions to problems when they happen rather than when they are fashionable

Sandpit

williamglenn said:

.

Damn, you edited first!

Benpointer

O/T

"Joachim Löw to stay as Germany manager despite World Cup humiliation"

https://www.theguardian.com/football/2018/jul/03/joachim-low-germany-manager-world-up-stay

No witch-hunt, no knee-jerk resignation. Probably explains a lot about why Germany has been so successful over the years.

MaxPB

Benpointer said:

O/T

"Joachim Löw to stay as Germany manager despite World Cup humiliation"

https://www.theguardian.com/football/2018/jul/03/joachim-low-germany-manager-world-up-stay

No witch-hunt, no knee-jerk resignation. Probably explains a lot about why Germany has been so successful over the years.

They don't even know how to fail at football properly! Where are the recriminations, the reckonings, the trials by media!

Charles

El_Capitano said:

Belatedly noticed this:

https://twitter.com/BBCNews/status/1013899494314926087

"Brexit rebels' threat", ok. Or "Brexit rebels threaten". But not "Brexit rebels threat". In 80pt type on the front page.

I thought Desmond was a cost-cutting oaf but Trinity Mirror (sorry, "Reach") have clearly sent all the subs home.

Brexit rebels: threat to topple PM

Slackbladder

MaxPB said:

Benpointer said:

O/T

"Joachim Löw to stay as Germany manager despite World Cup humiliation"

https://www.theguardian.com/football/2018/jul/03/joachim-low-germany-manager-world-up-stay

No witch-hunt, no knee-jerk resignation. Probably explains a lot about why Germany has been so successful over the years.

They don't even know how to fail at football properly! Where are the recriminations, the reckonings, the trials by media!

Just stumble on and can-kick to the next crisis..it's the German/EU way...

Benpointer

Charles said:

El_Capitano said:

Belatedly noticed this:

https://twitter.com/BBCNews/status/1013899494314926087

"Brexit rebels' threat", ok. Or "Brexit rebels threaten". But not "Brexit rebels threat". In 80pt type on the front page.

I thought Desmond was a cost-cutting oaf but Trinity Mirror (sorry, "Reach") have clearly sent all the subs home.

Brexit rebels: threat to topple PM

Yes that would work. Or how about:

Jingositic wankers set to screw both country and party ?

williamglenn

Sandpit said:

williamglenn said:

.

Damn, you edited first!

TOPPING

Philip_Thompson said:

williamglenn said:

TOPPING said:

.

HYUFD said:

TOPPING said:

HYUFD said:

Stark_Dawning said:

I doubt Jezza is remotely bothered about the anti-Brexit vote. The man is clearly itching for the hardest possible Brexit for two reasons:

1) The resulting economic misery and chaos will see the Tories hurled from office.
2) He can then build his socialist utopia in Britain unfettered by the neo-liberal restraints of the EU.

He'll probably appoint Rees-Mogg and Farage to his politburo - they've been enormously helpful.

On what basis? Hard Brexiteers would stick to the Tories but some Remainer Labour voters would shift LD and Remainer Tories would still not touch Corbyn with a bargepole.

Though I agree hard Brexit would suit the socialism he wants to implement in government just fine

I know that plenty of Remainer Tories voted for Corbyn because I canvassed 100s of them last year.

Yes they will vote Tory to keep out Corbyn regardless of Brexit

What are you talking about? They voted Labour at last year's GE. They didn't vote Tory. ie unTory. No Tory. Nil Tory.

I would love to see HYUFD canvassing such people. He probably wouldn't believe the were Tory voters in the first place.

I don't. The Tory vote went up by 2.3 million votes between 2015 and 2017. I don't believe any significant number of Tory votes switched to Corbyn.

The doorstep never lies. Hundreds and hundreds. The constituency went from a Lab-Con marginal to a safe Lab seat. First time I've been called a nazi on the doorstep also, by a disgusted (at the thought of registering aliens) previous Cons voter.

I haven't canvassed the entire United Kingdom (tbf like @HYUFD seems to have done) but unless the air is special down where I was I have to believe that such sentiments, if milder, exist around the country.

AlastairMeeks

Charles said:

El_Capitano said:

Belatedly noticed this:

https://twitter.com/BBCNews/status/1013899494314926087

"Brexit rebels' threat", ok. Or "Brexit rebels threaten". But not "Brexit rebels threat". In 80pt type on the front page.

I thought Desmond was a cost-cutting oaf but Trinity Mirror (sorry, "Reach") have clearly sent all the subs home.

Brexit rebels: threat to topple PM

pb: running the gamut from Liz Truss to Lynne Truss.

Charles

Pulpstar said:

Scott_P said:

https://twitter.com/George_Osborne/status/1014095098265718786

That's the most unpleasent cartoon I've seen in a while.

I’ve been in SoCal. What story is it referencing (apart from Brexit?)

TheScreamingEagles

MaxPB said:

Benpointer said:

O/T

"Joachim Löw to stay as Germany manager despite World Cup humiliation"

https://www.theguardian.com/football/2018/jul/03/joachim-low-germany-manager-world-up-stay

No witch-hunt, no knee-jerk resignation. Probably explains a lot about why Germany has been so successful over the years.

They don't even know how to fail at football properly! Where are the recriminations, the reckonings, the trials by media!

Google Christopher Daum

Foxy

Slackbladder said:

MaxPB said:

Benpointer said:

O/T

"Joachim Löw to stay as Germany manager despite World Cup humiliation"

https://www.theguardian.com/football/2018/jul/03/joachim-low-germany-manager-world-up-stay

No witch-hunt, no knee-jerk resignation. Probably explains a lot about why Germany has been so successful over the years.

They don't even know how to fail at football properly! Where are the recriminations, the reckonings, the trials by media!

Just stumble on and can-kick to the next crisis..it's the German/EU way...

Perhaps Britain is more European than we thought. Can kicking is a pretty accurate Tory Brexit metaphor.

FrancisUrquhart

Guy Pearce suggests he was groped by Kevin Spacey on set of LA Confidential

https://www.theguardian.com/film/2018/jul/03/guy-pearce-suggests-he-was-groped-by-kevin-spacey-on-set-of-la-confidential

FrancisUrquhart

Labour could reinstate suspended MP Jared O’Mara after its ruling body was advised to issue the MP with a formal warning rather than refer him for expulsion, the Guardian understands.

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2018/jul/03/labour-set-to-reinstate-suspended-mp-jared-omara

TOPPING

AlastairMeeks said:

Charles said:

El_Capitano said:

Belatedly noticed this:

https://twitter.com/BBCNews/status/1013899494314926087

"Brexit rebels' threat", ok. Or "Brexit rebels threaten". But not "Brexit rebels threat". In 80pt type on the front page.

I thought Desmond was a cost-cutting oaf but Trinity Mirror (sorry, "Reach") have clearly sent all the subs home.

Brexit rebels: threat to topple PM

pb: running the gamut from Liz Truss to Lynne Truss.

LOL I was pondering that this morning as R4 had one of them on talking about the football.

Charles

TOPPING said:

.

HYUFD said:

TOPPING said:

HYUFD said:

Stark_Dawning said:

I doubt Jezza is remotely bothered about the anti-Brexit vote. The man is clearly itching for the hardest possible Brexit for two reasons:

1) The resulting economic misery and chaos will see the Tories hurled from office.
2) He can then build his socialist utopia in Britain unfettered by the neo-liberal restraints of the EU.

He'll probably appoint Rees-Mogg and Farage to his politburo - they've been enormously helpful.

On what basis? Hard Brexiteers would stick to the Tories but some Remainer Labour voters would shift LD and Remainer Tories would still not touch Corbyn with a bargepole.

Though I agree hard Brexit would suit the socialism he wants to implement in government just fine

I know that plenty of Remainer Tories voted for Corbyn because I canvassed 100s of them last year.

Yes they will vote Tory to keep out Corbyn regardless of Brexit

What are you talking about? They voted Labour at last year's GE. They didn't vote Tory. ie unTory. No Tory. Nil Tory.

Do you have anyway to judge the extent to which that was because he “couldn’t win”?

Tissue_Price

TOPPING said:

AlastairMeeks said:

Charles said:

El_Capitano said:

Belatedly noticed this:

https://twitter.com/BBCNews/status/1013899494314926087

"Brexit rebels' threat", ok. Or "Brexit rebels threaten". But not "Brexit rebels threat". In 80pt type on the front page.

I thought Desmond was a cost-cutting oaf but Trinity Mirror (sorry, "Reach") have clearly sent all the subs home.

Brexit rebels: threat to topple PM

pb: running the gamut from Liz Truss to Lynne Truss.

LOL I was pondering that this morning as R4 had one of them on talking about the football.

Eats pork and cheese?

Casino_Royale

TOPPING said:

Philip_Thompson said:

williamglenn said:

TOPPING said:

.

HYUFD said:

TOPPING said:

HYUFD said:

Stark_Dawning said:

I doubt Jezza is remotely bothered about the anti-Brexit vote. The man is clearly itching for the hardest possible Brexit for two reasons:

1) The resulting economic misery and chaos will see the Tories hurled from office.
2) He can then build his socialist utopia in Britain unfettered by the neo-liberal restraints of the EU.

He'll probably appoint Rees-Mogg and Farage to his politburo - they've been enormously helpful.

On what basis? Hard Brexiteers would stick to the Tories but some Remainer Labour voters would shift LD and Remainer Tories would still not touch Corbyn with a bargepole.

Though I agree hard Brexit would suit the socialism he wants to implement in government just fine

I know that plenty of Remainer Tories voted for Corbyn because I canvassed 100s of them last year.

Yes they will vote Tory to keep out Corbyn regardless of Brexit

What are you talking about? They voted Labour at last year's GE. They didn't vote Tory. ie unTory. No Tory. Nil Tory.

I would love to see HYUFD canvassing such people. He probably wouldn't believe the were Tory voters in the first place.

I don't. The Tory vote went up by 2.3 million votes between 2015 and 2017. I don't believe any significant number of Tory votes switched to Corbyn.

The doorstep never lies. Hundreds and hundreds. The constituency went from a Lab-Con marginal to a safe Lab seat. First time I've been called a nazi on the doorstep also, by a disgusted (at the thought of registering aliens) previous Cons voter.

I haven't canvassed the entire United Kingdom (tbf like @HYUFD seems to have done) but unless the air is special down where I was I have to believe that such sentiments, if milder, exist around the country.

You were in a surburban marginal in Greater London?

I didn’t get any of that down in Southampton Test. I did clearly read the canvass returns incorrectly, however.

Pulpstar

Charles said:

Pulpstar said:

Scott_P said:

https://twitter.com/George_Osborne/status/1014095098265718786

That's the most unpleasent cartoon I've seen in a while.

I’ve been in SoCal. What story is it referencing (apart from Brexit?)

https://edition.cnn.com/2018/07/03/asia/thai-rescue-next-phase-intl/index.html

Charles

Benpointer said:

Charles said:

El_Capitano said:

Belatedly noticed this:

https://twitter.com/BBCNews/status/1013899494314926087

"Brexit rebels' threat", ok. Or "Brexit rebels threaten". But not "Brexit rebels threat". In 80pt type on the front page.

I thought Desmond was a cost-cutting oaf but Trinity Mirror (sorry, "Reach") have clearly sent all the subs home.

Brexit rebels: threat to topple PM

Yes that would work. Or how about:

Jingositic wankers set to screw both country and party ?

Have to fit Diana and house prices in as well

tlg86

Pulpstar said:

Charles said:

Pulpstar said:

Scott_P said:

https://twitter.com/George_Osborne/status/1014095098265718786

That's the most unpleasent cartoon I've seen in a while.

I’ve been in SoCal. What story is it referencing (apart from Brexit?)

https://edition.cnn.com/2018/07/03/asia/thai-rescue-next-phase-intl/index.html

Not sure if that's a poor cartoon or if I'm really dim. I didn't twig that they were supposed to be in a cave. But if that's what it's getting at, then yes, it's quite crass.

Charles

Pulpstar said:

Charles said:

Pulpstar said:

Scott_P said:

https://twitter.com/George_Osborne/status/1014095098265718786

That's the most unpleasent cartoon I've seen in a while.

I’ve been in SoCal. What story is it referencing (apart from Brexit?)

https://edition.cnn.com/2018/07/03/asia/thai-rescue-next-phase-intl/index.html

Didn’t make the connection. Not funny.