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politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » On this big day let’s remember Ken Clarke’s assessment of TMay

SystemSystem Posts: 6,199
edited July 6 in General

imagepoliticalbetting.com » Blog Archive » On this big day let’s remember Ken Clarke’s assessment of TMay just before she won the leadership

One of the great nuggets that came out of the post Brexit referendum CON leadership contest was the above unguarded conversation between Ken Clarke and Malcolm Rifkind captured by Sky News when they thought the cameras were off them.

Read the full story here


«1345

Comments

  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 3,041
    edited July 6
    First! Like France.

    No rain for my garden.
  • RecidivistRecidivist Posts: 1,992
    Stephen Bush has put forward a theory that she has actually played a blinder to frustrate the aims of the phobes. It certainly is the case that leaving without a deal is going to be even harder with no preparation so that strengthens the soft Brexit argument.

  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 24,532
    "Maybe historians will look back at today and deem it to be Theresa’s finest hour."

    This is a keeper.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 3,041

    "Maybe historians will look back at today and deem it to be Theresa’s finest hour."

    This is a keeper.

    Yes, it is hard to see Theresa managing deftly to come out with a coherent and viable proposal.

    It is particularly absurd that it has taken 2 years for this meeting to happen. Fail to prepare? prepare to fail.
  • JackWJackW Posts: 13,414
    The nation's Conservative cabinet of all the talents Chequers meeting. Now, what could possibly go spectacularly wrong ?

  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 43,790
    Good morning, everyone.

    Mr. Royale, such sexism!

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-44629568
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 11,364

    Stephen Bush has put forward a theory that she has actually played a blinder to frustrate the aims of the phobes. It certainly is the case that leaving without a deal is going to be even harder with no preparation so that strengthens the soft Brexit argument.

    straw clutching at
  • RecidivistRecidivist Posts: 1,992

    Stephen Bush has put forward a theory that she has actually played a blinder to frustrate the aims of the phobes. It certainly is the case that leaving without a deal is going to be even harder with no preparation so that strengthens the soft Brexit argument.

    straw clutching at
    Yes, you are probably right. But the alternative is to accept that we have not only engaged on a highly damaging course of action by choosing to leave the European Union, but have also gone about doing it in the most damaging way.
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 43,790
    King Cole, indeed.

    Even if the reported insanity of May's position goes through, it merely sustains the division within the nation and worsens it. Trust in the political class will sink yet further.

    It also fits in with my depressing but so far reasonably accurate outline of how the far right could plausibly (although this is unlikely) end up gaining a foothold in our political system. When people lose faith in the mainstream they stop voting or look elsewhere.
  • PolruanPolruan Posts: 1,295

    "Maybe historians will look back at today and deem it to be Theresa’s finest hour."

    This is a keeper.

    Remember that saying it could be her finest hour isn’t exactly setting the bar high.

    Although it’s fair to say that May is hard to shift from any firm convictions she holds, fortunately she is not hampered by holding very many, and any views on policy come way below the absolute conviction that she should continue to “serve” as PM for as long as possible. So from her perspective, the fineness of the hour will be measured by the distance the can (of fudge) is kicked down the road this time. It’s not so much that she believes the UK must leave on 29 March as that she recognises the necessity of giving the impression that something called Brexit will happen on that date - until such time as events that don’t look too much like her fault make it impossible for it to happen.
  • felixfelix Posts: 7,687
    T. May has had a very difficult task from the start - made much worse by the disaster of the GE for which she deserves and has accepted the full blame. However, given the intransigence and occasional vindictiveness of the EU negotiators she has probably done as well as anyone could have done thus far. The negotiations , as expected , have not gone well - their quality has only been exceeded in awfulness by the woeful state of the news commentary throughout, which is partial on both sides, untruthful on both sides and unrealistic on both sides. Indeed the awfulness of the referendum campaign continues unabated.

    I expect there will be an agreement of sorts which will be sub-optimal for both sides without being catastrophic for either and the commentariat will move on - which most of the public did some time ago.
  • SquareRootSquareRoot Posts: 5,578
    JackW said:

    The nation's Conservative cabinet of all the talents Chequers meeting. Now, what could possibly go spectacularly wrong ?

    Boris might open his mouth and start talking ?
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 11,364

    King Cole, indeed.

    Even if the reported insanity of May's position goes through, it merely sustains the division within the nation and worsens it. Trust in the political class will sink yet further.

    It also fits in with my depressing but so far reasonably accurate outline of how the far right could plausibly (although this is unlikely) end up gaining a foothold in our political system. When people lose faith in the mainstream they stop voting or look elsewhere.

    Another unexpected result of the Coalition. While it was unquestionably a stable Government it severely damaged the ‘credibility’ of the LibDems as a NOTA vote. And I don’t think they’ll get that back while led by Uncle Vince.
    The fact that the SNP is the third party in Parliament doesn’t help, either.
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 43,790
    King Cole, the Lib Dems, weirdly for a party that loved the concept of a coalition, seemed ill-prepared to get the angle right when it came to promoting the good they did in government.
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 19,836
    Reading “Bad Blood” by John Carreyrou at the moment - he’s the guy who original broke the Theranos story

    Extraordinary book. Knew it was bad, but hadn’t realised it was this bad

    The ability of a blonde 20 something Californian girl to sweet talk older men into supporting her despite the advice of their juniors is quite extraordinary!

    Highly recommended if any of you are into that sort of book
  • rkrkrkrkrkrk Posts: 4,344
    felix said:

    T. May has had a very difficult task from the start - made much worse by the disaster of the GE for which she deserves and has accepted the full blame. However, given the intransigence and occasional vindictiveness of the EU negotiators she has probably done as well as anyone could have done thus far. The negotiations , as expected , have not gone well - their quality has only been exceeded in awfulness by the woeful state of the news commentary throughout, which is partial on both sides, untruthful on both sides and unrealistic on both sides. Indeed the awfulness of the referendum campaign continues unabated.

    I expect there will be an agreement of sorts which will be sub-optimal for both sides without being catastrophic for either and the commentariat will move on - which most of the public did some time ago.

    Mostly agree.
    Several politically interested friends have just stopped reading the news on Brexit - the general public must have stopped following a long time ago. They'll tune in when it's done, if it's ever done.
  • BarnesianBarnesian Posts: 3,158
    Ken Clarke's comments about Gove in the clip above are very interesting. It suggests he is a loose cannon.
  • RogerRoger Posts: 9,401
    edited July 6
    A more relevant and I suspect accurate observation was the one made by John O'Farrell when he was the Labour candidate facing Theresa May in Maidenhead in 2001. ......That she is incapable of original or creative thought.

    (starts on 20 mins though it's all worth listening to)

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b0b7hl3n
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 43,790
    F1: Zak Brown reckons it'll take 2-10 years for McLaren to be competitive again:
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/formula-one/44725602
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 10,687
    Barnesian said:

    Ken Clarke's comments about Gove in the clip above are very interesting. It suggests he is a loose cannon.

    Clarke, or Gove?

    If the latter, any given post of mine on the subject should have told you that a while ago.
  • LordOfReasonLordOfReason Posts: 82
    Pyjama Party Day. Anyone thinking it’s not really that important?

    The reasons why July 6th is so important for Britain’s future, that history will be made in the coming weeks are

    1) The position agreed at the Chequers Cabinet is not the terms we leave the EU under, its the bottom line and trades in which we continue negotiation and agree terms of exit with the EU, to be compromised still further in that negotiation and into the final agreement.

    2) The final agreement we leave under is peak Brexit. Cameron’s assertion his referendum settles it once and for all is beyond laughable. In 1975 61% of 18-29 year olds voted yes. 41 years on, only 36% of the same group (now aged 59-70) voted remain. Of course! Nothing stands still in this world, so the grass will always appear greener on the other side. Against backdrop of short term and generational public opinion shifts, and shifts within opposition and government parties, there will be British PMs elected on mandate to review our relationship with Europe, particularly to find gainshare and win win scenarios for business and commerce. And of course they will find them. And they will slice and dice and slide away from peak brexit. So the importance of this moment to leavers, the necessity of using this momentum to achieve hard Brexit, because soft Brexit is handing so many slices and slidings away, to today’s and future pro EU remainiacs as a head start!

    3) This coming phase of Brexit requires a Brexit PM and Brexit CoEx you can trust to negotiate robustly and deliver what Boris engagingly calls the “full English” Brexit. ignore the fact you now view Boris as a buffoon and liability, is what he has been saying for weeks not absolutely spot on? But who else have you heard supporting him in voicing it! If the leavers in cabinet, government, Conservative party, media and country as a whole cannot defend the barricades this weekend and see this one through, no matter what it takes, the momentum will be irretrievably lost, and history will not record either their lack of courage or their judgement and sense of the moment very kindly.

    Because This could be the moment it starts to turn, when the likes of Meeks and Willy Glenn start winning. Think about it. Is that thought alone not a call to arms?

    Do you hear the people sing?
    Singing a song of angry men?
    It is the music of a people
    Who will not be slaves again!
    When the beating of your heart
    Echoes the beating of the drums
    There is a life about to start
    When tomorrow comes!
    Will you join in our crusade?
    Who will be strong and stand with me?
    Somewhere beyond the barricade
    Is there a world you long to see?
    Then join in the fight
    That will give you the right to be free!!
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 10,687
    Roger said:

    A more relevant and I suspect accurate observation was the one made by John O'Farrell when he was the Labour candidate facing Theresa May in Maidenhead 1n 2001. ......That she is incapable of original or creative thought.

    (starts on 20 mins though it's all worth listening to)

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b0b7hl3n

    Coming from a former member of the Loony Left who later wrote scripts for Have I Got News For You, that's quite funny.
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 11,364

    King Cole, the Lib Dems, weirdly for a party that loved the concept of a coalition, seemed ill-prepared to get the angle right when it came to promoting the good they did in government.

    Indeed.
    And now I must away; my wife needs her morning coffee and afterwards the gym calls! Must keep this old body moving!
  • rkrkrkrkrkrk Posts: 4,344
    Charles said:

    Reading “Bad Blood” by John Carreyrou at the moment - he’s the guy who original broke the Theranos story

    Extraordinary book. Knew it was bad, but hadn’t realised it was this bad

    The ability of a blonde 20 something Californian girl to sweet talk older men into supporting her despite the advice of their juniors is quite extraordinary!

    Highly recommended if any of you are into that sort of book

    It's on my reading list. Find it incredible that she isn't in prison yet.
  • BarnesianBarnesian Posts: 3,158
    edited July 6
    ydoethur said:

    Barnesian said:

    Ken Clarke's comments about Gove in the clip above are very interesting. It suggests he is a loose cannon.

    Clarke, or Gove?

    If the latter, any given post of mine on the subject should have told you that a while ago.
    Gove. As a loose cannon, sometimes he makes destructive change (eg education) and sometimes constructive change (environment) but he just can't help himself firing off. His tearing up of a Brexit paper is a small example of his need for drama. So is his last minute withdrawal of support for Boris. If you want dramatic change and an interesting experience, vote Gove for PM. He is the pole opposite of May. He is the one to watch at Chequers.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 13,748
    So the greatest irony is that Tezza went to the country for a mandate for a hard Brexit and got told to get to Falkirk.

    While if she had made it known before the election that she was after what we hear is her third way wishy washy Brexit she might have got that huge majority.
  • SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 26,638
    What is extraordinary is that this is all about internal Conservative party politics and personal ambition. What is best for the UK and the British people does not even enter their thoughts. And that is possible because they know that whatever happens Jeremy Corbyn ensures there is no way the Tories will not be in power after the next general election.

  • Scott_PScott_P Posts: 37,286

    This coming phase of Brexit requires a Brexit PM and Brexit CoEx you can trust to negotiate robustly and deliver what Boris engagingly calls the “full English” Brexit.

  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 10,687
    Barnesian said:

    ydoethur said:

    Barnesian said:

    Ken Clarke's comments about Gove in the clip above are very interesting. It suggests he is a loose cannon.

    Clarke, or Gove?

    If the latter, any given post of mine on the subject should have told you that a while ago.
    Gove. As a loose cannon, sometimes he makes destructive change (eg education) and sometimes constructive change (environment) but he just can't help himself firing off. His tearing up of a Brexit paper is a small example of his need for drama. If you want dramatic change and an interesting experience, vote Gove for PM. He is the pole opposite of May.
    Nick Palmer, I know, is very pleased with Gove at environment.

    It is interesting to record that my father, who works in animal health and welfare and regulations on the safe disposal of hazardous waste, has had much the same experience I did - initial delight, then disillusionment, followed by frustration, leading to fury.

    It is also worth bearing in mind that with two exceptions (both Labour, interestingly) my father despises all Ministers at DEFRA and MAFF on principle. But even so his loathing for Gove is greater than usual.
  • BarnesianBarnesian Posts: 3,158

    Pyjama Party Day. Anyone thinking it’s not really that important?

    The reasons why July 6th is so important for Britain’s future, that history will be made in the coming weeks are

    1) The position agreed at the Chequers Cabinet is not the terms we leave the EU under, its the bottom line and trades in which we continue negotiation and agree terms of exit with the EU, to be compromised still further in that negotiation and into the final agreement.

    2) The final agreement we leave under is peak Brexit. Cameron’s assertion his referendum settles it once and for all is beyond laughable. In 1975 61% of 18-29 year olds voted yes. 41 years on, only 36% of the same group (now aged 59-70) voted remain. Of course! Nothing stands still in this world, so the grass will always appear greener on the other side. Against backdrop of short term and generational public opinion shifts, and shifts within opposition and government parties, there will be British PMs elected on mandate to review our relationship with Europe, particularly to find gainshare and win win scenarios for business and commerce. And of course they will find them. And they will slice and dice and slide away from peak brexit. So the importance of this moment to leavers, the necessity of using this momentum to achieve hard Brexit, because soft Brexit is handing so many slices and slidings away, to today’s and future pro EU remainiacs as a head start!

    3) This coming phase of Brexit requires a Brexit PM and Brexit CoEx you can trust to negotiate robustly and deliver what Boris engagingly calls the “full English” Brexit. ignore the fact you now view Boris as a buffoon and liability, is what he has been saying for weeks not absolutely spot on? But who else have you heard supporting him in voicing it! If the leavers in cabinet, government, Conservative party, media and country as a whole cannot defend the barricades this weekend and see this one through, no matter what it takes, the momentum will be irretrievably lost, and history will not record either their lack of courage or their judgement and sense of the moment very kindly.

    Because This could be the moment it starts to turn, when the likes of Meeks and Willy Glenn start winning. Think about it. Is that thought alone not a call to arms?

    Do you hear the people sing?
    Singing a song of angry men?
    It is the music of a people
    Who will not be slaves again!
    When the beating of your heart
    Echoes the beating of the drums
    There is a life about to start
    When tomorrow comes!
    Will you join in our crusade?
    Who will be strong and stand with me?
    Somewhere beyond the barricade
    Is there a world you long to see?
    Then join in the fight
    That will give you the right to be free!!

    Do I detect a hint of panic?
  • SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 26,638
    felix said:

    T. May has had a very difficult task from the start - made much worse by the disaster of the GE for which she deserves and has accepted the full blame. However, given the intransigence and occasional vindictiveness of the EU negotiators she has probably done as well as anyone could have done thus far. The negotiations , as expected , have not gone well - their quality has only been exceeded in awfulness by the woeful state of the news commentary throughout, which is partial on both sides, untruthful on both sides and unrealistic on both sides. Indeed the awfulness of the referendum campaign continues unabated.

    I expect there will be an agreement of sorts which will be sub-optimal for both sides without being catastrophic for either and the commentariat will move on - which most of the public did some time ago.

    We are where we are because Theresa May triggered Article 50 when she did and drew her red lines where she did.
  • Scott_PScott_P Posts: 37,286
    Barnesian said:

    Do I detect a hint of panic?

    Will the Brexiteers bravely run away?

    Again...
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 10,687
    Barnesian said:

    Pyjama Party Day. Anyone thinking it’s not really that important?

    Do I detect a hint of panic?
    I'm impressed you can understand it far enough to detect anything. I've been through it three times and I've still got no clue what it means.
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 19,836
    rkrkrk said:

    Charles said:

    Reading “Bad Blood” by John Carreyrou at the moment - he’s the guy who original broke the Theranos story

    Extraordinary book. Knew it was bad, but hadn’t realised it was this bad

    The ability of a blonde 20 something Californian girl to sweet talk older men into supporting her despite the advice of their juniors is quite extraordinary!

    Highly recommended if any of you are into that sort of book

    It's on my reading list. Find it incredible that she isn't in prison yet.
    She was indicted a few weeks ago but has yet to come to trial. If the book is half true it was a 10 year intentional fraud. She should go down for a very long time
  • rkrkrkrkrkrk Posts: 4,344
    ydoethur said:

    Barnesian said:

    ydoethur said:

    Barnesian said:

    Ken Clarke's comments about Gove in the clip above are very interesting. It suggests he is a loose cannon.

    Clarke, or Gove?

    If the latter, any given post of mine on the subject should have told you that a while ago.
    Gove. As a loose cannon, sometimes he makes destructive change (eg education) and sometimes constructive change (environment) but he just can't help himself firing off. His tearing up of a Brexit paper is a small example of his need for drama. If you want dramatic change and an interesting experience, vote Gove for PM. He is the pole opposite of May.
    Nick Palmer, I know, is very pleased with Gove at environment.

    It is interesting to record that my father, who works in animal health and welfare and regulations on the safe disposal of hazardous waste, has had much the same experience I did - initial delight, then disillusionment, followed by frustration, leading to fury.

    It is also worth bearing in mind that with two exceptions (both Labour, interestingly) my father despises all Ministers at DEFRA and MAFF on principle. But even so his loathing for Gove is greater than usual.
    Who did he like?
  • SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 26,638

    Stephen Bush has put forward a theory that she has actually played a blinder to frustrate the aims of the phobes. It certainly is the case that leaving without a deal is going to be even harder with no preparation so that strengthens the soft Brexit argument.

    straw clutching at
    Yes, you are probably right. But the alternative is to accept that we have not only engaged on a highly damaging course of action by choosing to leave the European Union, but have also gone about doing it in the most damaging way.

    We now know without a shadow of doubt that those who had spent years campaigning to leave the EU had absolutely no idea about how the EU works, how integrated the UK is in EU-wide structures and institutions, how the customs union and the single market enable underpinned manufacturing business models or how free trade agreements are done. They made promises that they could not hope to keep, because they had absolutely no idea. Instead of doing the hard yards and the detailed thinking around how to leave, they preferred to talk to each other about high concepts and new world orders. Such privilege.

  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 13,748

    felix said:

    T. May has had a very difficult task from the start - made much worse by the disaster of the GE for which she deserves and has accepted the full blame. However, given the intransigence and occasional vindictiveness of the EU negotiators she has probably done as well as anyone could have done thus far. The negotiations , as expected , have not gone well - their quality has only been exceeded in awfulness by the woeful state of the news commentary throughout, which is partial on both sides, untruthful on both sides and unrealistic on both sides. Indeed the awfulness of the referendum campaign continues unabated.

    I expect there will be an agreement of sorts which will be sub-optimal for both sides without being catastrophic for either and the commentariat will move on - which most of the public did some time ago.

    We are where we are because Theresa May triggered Article 50 when she did and drew her red lines where she did.
    @SouthamObserver many congrats on your news.

    Plenty more time to post on PB from Southam Towers I hope!
  • AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 20,202
    Theresa May is greatly aided by the cowardice and dimwittedness of her opponents. Her Premiership motto has been “faute de mieux”. Today may well on that test indeed be her finest hour.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 20,296
    Charles said:

    Reading “Bad Blood” by John Carreyrou at the moment - he’s the guy who original broke the Theranos story

    Extraordinary book. Knew it was bad, but hadn’t realised it was this bad

    The ability of a blonde 20 something Californian girl to sweet talk older men into supporting her despite the advice of their juniors is quite extraordinary!

    Highly recommended if any of you are into that sort of book

    Can't resist changing that for Boris and the Garden Bridge:

    The ability of a blonde 50 something mayor to sweet talk other men into supporting him despite the advice of their juniors is quite extraordinary!

    :)

    Thanks for the recommendation; I'll order the book later. Mrs J and I were split on Theranos: Mrs J thought it was always a scam, whilst I thought Holmes has just got herself into something and tried bluffing her way out. It seems I was wrong on that ...
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 10,687
    rkrkrk said:

    ydoethur said:

    Barnesian said:

    ydoethur said:

    Barnesian said:

    Ken Clarke's comments about Gove in the clip above are very interesting. It suggests he is a loose cannon.

    Clarke, or Gove?

    If the latter, any given post of mine on the subject should have told you that a while ago.
    Gove. As a loose cannon, sometimes he makes destructive change (eg education) and sometimes constructive change (environment) but he just can't help himself firing off. His tearing up of a Brexit paper is a small example of his need for drama. If you want dramatic change and an interesting experience, vote Gove for PM. He is the pole opposite of May.
    Nick Palmer, I know, is very pleased with Gove at environment.

    It is interesting to record that my father, who works in animal health and welfare and regulations on the safe disposal of hazardous waste, has had much the same experience I did - initial delight, then disillusionment, followed by frustration, leading to fury.

    It is also worth bearing in mind that with two exceptions (both Labour, interestingly) my father despises all Ministers at DEFRA and MAFF on principle. But even so his loathing for Gove is greater than usual.
    Who did he like?
    At Cabinet level, David Miliband. At junior level, Jeff Rooker.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 15,230
    edited July 6


    Yep. Fudge. A tray of the brown, sticky stuff will be presented to the EU and rejected.
  • RogerRoger Posts: 9,401
    ydoethur said:

    Roger said:

    A more relevant and I suspect accurate observation was the one made by John O'Farrell when he was the Labour candidate facing Theresa May in Maidenhead 1n 2001. ......That she is incapable of original or creative thought.

    (starts on 20 mins though it's all worth listening to)

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b0b7hl3n

    Coming from a former member of the Loony Left who later wrote scripts for Have I Got News For You, that's quite funny.
    Like most good comedic writers his observations are quite astute. This one in particular if it was made contemporaniously
  • AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 20,202
    Theresa May’s strategy is to penelopise, always work to put off the fateful choice until it is made by default. I doubt that will change today.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 24,532

    Theresa May is greatly aided by the cowardice and dimwittedness of her opponents. Her Premiership motto has been “faute de mieux”. Today may well on that test indeed be her finest hour.

    I agree on the cowardice. Gove is one of the few who know exactly what’s going on and is intelligent enough to understand it too.

    I therefore think that what he does is decisive.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 10,687
    edited July 6

    Stephen Bush has put forward a theory that she has actually played a blinder to frustrate the aims of the phobes. It certainly is the case that leaving without a deal is going to be even harder with no preparation so that strengthens the soft Brexit argument.

    straw clutching at
    Yes, you are probably right. But the alternative is to accept that we have not only engaged on a highly damaging course of action by choosing to leave the European Union, but have also gone about doing it in the most damaging way.

    We now know without a shadow of doubt that those who had spent years campaigning to leave the EU had absolutely no idea about how the EU works, how integrated the UK is in EU-wide structures and institutions, how the customs union and the single market enable underpinned manufacturing business models or how free trade agreements are done. They made promises that they could not hope to keep, because they had absolutely no idea. Instead of doing the hard yards and the detailed thinking around how to leave, they preferred to talk to each other about high concepts and new world orders. Such privilege.

    The big drawback of arguing that way is however that they did claim the EU had enormous power over our lives and was extending it further, undemocratically and often by means that were either dubious or at times actually illegal, that this was counter to Britain's interests (which is truer than Europhiles are willing to admit) and that we should stop them. Which, as your post tacitly concedes, is not an argument without merit.

    One problem with Remain was that while they went big (albeit often incompetently) on economics they never really came up with an answer to questions on sovereignty. That left them no leeway when the bus trumped (Trumped?) them on economics.

    The other point however is that Leavers did ultimately choose the most disruptive and least effective form of disengagement.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 15,230

    Stephen Bush has put forward a theory that she has actually played a blinder to frustrate the aims of the phobes. It certainly is the case that leaving without a deal is going to be even harder with no preparation so that strengthens the soft Brexit argument.

    straw clutching at
    Yes, you are probably right. But the alternative is to accept that we have not only engaged on a highly damaging course of action by choosing to leave the European Union, but have also gone about doing it in the most damaging way.

    We now know without a shadow of doubt that those who had spent years campaigning to leave the EU had absolutely no idea about how the EU works, how integrated the UK is in EU-wide structures and institutions, how the customs union and the single market enable underpinned manufacturing business models or how free trade agreements are done. They made promises that they could not hope to keep, because they had absolutely no idea. Instead of doing the hard yards and the detailed thinking around how to leave, they preferred to talk to each other about high concepts and new world orders. Such privilege.

    Indeed. It seems that those who spout the most about business, entrepreneurs and markets, have no understanding whatsoever of modern, integrated business systems.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 10,687
    Roger said:

    ydoethur said:

    Roger said:

    A more relevant and I suspect accurate observation was the one made by John O'Farrell when he was the Labour candidate facing Theresa May in Maidenhead 1n 2001. ......That she is incapable of original or creative thought.

    (starts on 20 mins though it's all worth listening to)

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b0b7hl3n

    Coming from a former member of the Loony Left who later wrote scripts for Have I Got News For You, that's quite funny.
    Like most good comedic writers his observations are quite astute. This one in particular if it was made contemporaniously
    I was thinking more of the irony of such a person making such a comment.
  • SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 26,638
    TOPPING said:

    felix said:

    T. May has had a very difficult task from the start - made much worse by the disaster of the GE for which she deserves and has accepted the full blame. However, given the intransigence and occasional vindictiveness of the EU negotiators she has probably done as well as anyone could have done thus far. The negotiations , as expected , have not gone well - their quality has only been exceeded in awfulness by the woeful state of the news commentary throughout, which is partial on both sides, untruthful on both sides and unrealistic on both sides. Indeed the awfulness of the referendum campaign continues unabated.

    I expect there will be an agreement of sorts which will be sub-optimal for both sides without being catastrophic for either and the commentariat will move on - which most of the public did some time ago.

    We are where we are because Theresa May triggered Article 50 when she did and drew her red lines where she did.
    @SouthamObserver many congrats on your news.

    Plenty more time to post on PB from Southam Towers I hope!

    Cheers - it's been quite a few weeks!!

    I am going to be working inside the merged company for a while, at least. There was a rollover element to the deal which means I still have some skin in the game. It's a really interesting merger that creates a lot of opportunities - we have a strong and growing Asia presence, they have none; they do 10% of their business in Latin America, we do nothing there; we are both strong in different verticals in the US and Europe. Our tech is better than theirs, their subscription sales operation is better than ours, etc. Combined we are a 350 person, £50 million a year turnover business with a very good chance to scale pretty quickly. If I can find something useful and enjoyable to do in helping that to happen, why not?

  • SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 6,393
    May could always take the Father Ted approach and say a Mass. And if that doesn't work, say another Mass.

    I'm sure the Moggster would approve.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 13,748
    ydoethur said:

    Roger said:

    ydoethur said:

    Roger said:

    A more relevant and I suspect accurate observation was the one made by John O'Farrell when he was the Labour candidate facing Theresa May in Maidenhead 1n 2001. ......That she is incapable of original or creative thought.

    (starts on 20 mins though it's all worth listening to)

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b0b7hl3n

    Coming from a former member of the Loony Left who later wrote scripts for Have I Got News For You, that's quite funny.
    Like most good comedic writers his observations are quite astute. This one in particular if it was made contemporaniously
    I was thinking more of the irony of such a person making such a comment.
    Anyone who can write Things Can Only Get Better has the insight to comment on any aspect of our political world.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 45,124
    The beating of Gove's heart
    Echoes the beating of Boris's thumb
  • AlistairAlistair Posts: 9,601
    To stop IndyRef2 the fudge must continue past October 2018. If there is no clear future destination there is no tugger for IndyRef2.
  • SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 26,638
    ydoethur said:

    Stephen Bush has put forward a theory that she has actually played a blinder to frustrate the aims of the phobes. It certainly is the case that leaving without a deal is going to be even harder with no preparation so that strengthens the soft Brexit argument.

    straw clutching at
    Yes, you are probably right. But the alternative is to accept that we have not only engaged on a highly damaging course of action by choosing to leave the European Union, but have also gone about doing it in the most damaging way.

    We now know without a shadow of doubt that those who had spent years campaigning to leave the EU had absolutely no idea about how the EU works, how integrated the UK is in EU-wide structures and institutions, how the customs union and the single market enable underpinned manufacturing business models or how free trade agreements are done. They made promises that they could not hope to keep, because they had absolutely no idea. Instead of doing the hard yards and the detailed thinking around how to leave, they preferred to talk to each other about high concepts and new world orders. Such privilege.

    The big drawback of arguing that way is however that they did claim the EU had enormous power over our lives and was extending it further, undemocratically and often by means that were either dubious or at times actually illegal, that this was counter to Britain's interests (which is truer than Europhiles are willing to admit) and that we should stop them. Which, as your post tacitly concedes, is not an argument without merit.

    One problem with Remain was that while they went big (albeit often incompetently) on economics they never really came up with an answer to questions on sovereignty. That left them no leeway when the bus trumped (Trumped?) them on economics.

    The other point however is that Leavers did ultimately choose the most disruptive and least effective form of disengagement.

    I agree. I see sovereignty like this: it is not a high ideal in and of itself, it exists as a practical tool to enhance the lives of the maximum number of people. If the exercise of sovereignty makes people's lives worse, then what is the point of it?

  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 3,041

    TOPPING said:

    felix said:

    T. May has had a very difficult task from the start - made much worse by the disaster of the GE for which she deserves and has accepted the full blame. However, given the intransigence and occasional vindictiveness of the EU negotiators she has probably done as well as anyone could have done thus far. The negotiations , as expected , have not gone well - their quality has only been exceeded in awfulness by the woeful state of the news commentary throughout, which is partial on both sides, untruthful on both sides and unrealistic on both sides. Indeed the awfulness of the referendum campaign continues unabated.

    I expect there will be an agreement of sorts which will be sub-optimal for both sides without being catastrophic for either and the commentariat will move on - which most of the public did some time ago.

    We are where we are because Theresa May triggered Article 50 when she did and drew her red lines where she did.
    @SouthamObserver many congrats on your news.

    Plenty more time to post on PB from Southam Towers I hope!

    Cheers - it's been quite a few weeks!!

    I am going to be working inside the merged company for a while, at least. There was a rollover element to the deal which means I still have some skin in the game. It's a really interesting merger that creates a lot of opportunities - we have a strong and growing Asia presence, they have none; they do 10% of their business in Latin America, we do nothing there; we are both strong in different verticals in the US and Europe. Our tech is better than theirs, their subscription sales operation is better than ours, etc. Combined we are a 350 person, £50 million a year turnover business with a very good chance to scale pretty quickly. If I can find something useful and enjoyable to do in helping that to happen, why not?

    Yes, congratulations! If the job remains interesting then worth sticking, but never too late for a career change if you fancy a new challenge.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 24,532
    ydoethur said:

    Barnesian said:

    ydoethur said:

    Barnesian said:

    Ken Clarke's comments about Gove in the clip above are very interesting. It suggests he is a loose cannon.

    Clarke, or Gove?

    If the latter, any given post of mine on the subject should have told you that a while ago.
    Gove. As a loose cannon, sometimes he makes destructive change (eg education) and sometimes constructive change (environment) but he just can't help himself firing off. His tearing up of a Brexit paper is a small example of his need for drama. If you want dramatic change and an interesting experience, vote Gove for PM. He is the pole opposite of May.
    Nick Palmer, I know, is very pleased with Gove at environment.

    It is interesting to record that my father, who works in animal health and welfare and regulations on the safe disposal of hazardous waste, has had much the same experience I did - initial delight, then disillusionment, followed by frustration, leading to fury.

    It is also worth bearing in mind that with two exceptions (both Labour, interestingly) my father despises all Ministers at DEFRA and MAFF on principle. But even so his loathing for Gove is greater than usual.
    I think Gove always starts very well, but ends up taking it too far because once he’s made his mind up he’ll bulldoze through any opposition regardless.
  • CD13CD13 Posts: 4,523
    Messrs Observer and Borough,

    I've always likened being in the EU as similar to an infection, but a viral rather than a bacterial
    infection. Rather than attacking tissues directly, it has actually taken over cellular processes for its own purposes.

    You can see this as supercharging the metabolism, the increased temperatures boosting the immune system, which it does. But shaking off a virus can take time.

  • AnazinaAnazina Posts: 1,455
    Nothing will get sorted at Chequers. Prepare for endless meaningless tweets from Laura Kuennesburg beginning with the words ‘told’ or ‘hearing’, while the morons on the Tory right wreck any chance of sensible compromise. Football kicks off at 3pm. France should win but not a gimme by any means.
  • AnazinaAnazina Posts: 1,455
    TOPPING said:

    ydoethur said:

    Roger said:

    ydoethur said:

    Roger said:

    A more relevant and I suspect accurate observation was the one made by John O'Farrell when he was the Labour candidate facing Theresa May in Maidenhead 1n 2001. ......That she is incapable of original or creative thought.

    (starts on 20 mins though it's all worth listening to)

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b0b7hl3n

    Coming from a former member of the Loony Left who later wrote scripts for Have I Got News For You, that's quite funny.
    Like most good comedic writers his observations are quite astute. This one in particular if it was made contemporaniously
    I was thinking more of the irony of such a person making such a comment.
    Anyone who can write Things Can Only Get Better has the insight to comment on any aspect of our political world.
    Indeed so. Brilliant book.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 24,532

    TOPPING said:

    felix said:

    T. May has had a very difficult task from the start - made much worse by the disaster of the GE for which she deserves and has accepted the full blame. However, given the intransigence and occasional vindictiveness of the EU negotiators she has probably done as well as anyone could have done thus far. The negotiations , as expected , have not gone well - their quality has only been exceeded in awfulness by the woeful state of the news commentary throughout, which is partial on both sides, untruthful on both sides and unrealistic on both sides. Indeed the awfulness of the referendum campaign continues unabated.

    I expect there will be an agreement of sorts which will be sub-optimal for both sides without being catastrophic for either and the commentariat will move on - which most of the public did some time ago.

    We are where we are because Theresa May triggered Article 50 when she did and drew her red lines where she did.
    @SouthamObserver many congrats on your news.

    Plenty more time to post on PB from Southam Towers I hope!

    Cheers - it's been quite a few weeks!!

    I am going to be working inside the merged company for a while, at least. There was a rollover element to the deal which means I still have some skin in the game. It's a really interesting merger that creates a lot of opportunities - we have a strong and growing Asia presence, they have none; they do 10% of their business in Latin America, we do nothing there; we are both strong in different verticals in the US and Europe. Our tech is better than theirs, their subscription sales operation is better than ours, etc. Combined we are a 350 person, £50 million a year turnover business with a very good chance to scale pretty quickly. If I can find something useful and enjoyable to do in helping that to happen, why not?

    Congratulations. You sound very pleased.
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 8,562
    That's a great clip.

    These experienced old hands have Gove's measure. Gove is not PM material.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 24,532

    Theresa May’s strategy is to penelopise, always work to put off the fateful choice until it is made by default. I doubt that will change today.

    I think that credits her with too much strategy.

    Her behaviour is driven by her weak parliamentary position. Had she got a big majority she’d have reached a decision many moons ago and used her terrible two to tell her opponents (on both sides) to go f**k themselves.
  • not_on_firenot_on_fire Posts: 2,376

    Stephen Bush has put forward a theory that she has actually played a blinder to frustrate the aims of the phobes. It certainly is the case that leaving without a deal is going to be even harder with no preparation so that strengthens the soft Brexit argument.

    straw clutching at
    Yes, you are probably right. But the alternative is to accept that we have not only engaged on a highly damaging course of action by choosing to leave the European Union, but have also gone about doing it in the most damaging way.

    We now know without a shadow of doubt that those who had spent years campaigning to leave the EU had absolutely no idea about how the EU works, how integrated the UK is in EU-wide structures and institutions, how the customs union and the single market enable underpinned manufacturing business models or how free trade agreements are done. They made promises that they could not hope to keep, because they had absolutely no idea. Instead of doing the hard yards and the detailed thinking around how to leave, they preferred to talk to each other about high concepts and new world orders. Such privilege.

    POTY contender.
  • SquareRootSquareRoot Posts: 5,578
    edited July 6

    Theresa May’s strategy is to penelopise, always work to put off the fateful choice until it is made by default. I doubt that will change today.

    That's two newpressions (to me) so far today.. penelopise and faute de mieux

    Are you having a bet to see how many you can introduce in one thread?
  • not_on_firenot_on_fire Posts: 2,376

    Stephen Bush has put forward a theory that she has actually played a blinder to frustrate the aims of the phobes. It certainly is the case that leaving without a deal is going to be even harder with no preparation so that strengthens the soft Brexit argument.

    straw clutching at
    Yes, you are probably right. But the alternative is to accept that we have not only engaged on a highly damaging course of action by choosing to leave the European Union, but have also gone about doing it in the most damaging way.

    We now know without a shadow of doubt that those who had spent years campaigning to leave the EU had absolutely no idea about how the EU works, how integrated the UK is in EU-wide structures and institutions, how the customs union and the single market enable underpinned manufacturing business models or how free trade agreements are done. They made promises that they could not hope to keep, because they had absolutely no idea. Instead of doing the hard yards and the detailed thinking around how to leave, they preferred to talk to each other about high concepts and new world orders. Such privilege.

    Indeed. It seems that those who spout the most about business, entrepreneurs and markets, have no understanding whatsoever of modern, integrated business systems.
    Indeed - witness the likes of Morris Dancer keep banging on about EU regulations as if having a common set of rules between countries was a bad thing...
  • another_richardanother_richard Posts: 11,434

    Stephen Bush has put forward a theory that she has actually played a blinder to frustrate the aims of the phobes. It certainly is the case that leaving without a deal is going to be even harder with no preparation so that strengthens the soft Brexit argument.

    straw clutching at
    Yes, you are probably right. But the alternative is to accept that we have not only engaged on a highly damaging course of action by choosing to leave the European Union, but have also gone about doing it in the most damaging way.

    We now know without a shadow of doubt that those who had spent years campaigning to leave the EU had absolutely no idea about how the EU works, how integrated the UK is in EU-wide structures and institutions, how the customs union and the single market enable underpinned manufacturing business models or how free trade agreements are done. They made promises that they could not hope to keep, because they had absolutely no idea. Instead of doing the hard yards and the detailed thinking around how to leave, they preferred to talk to each other about high concepts and new world orders. Such privilege.

    Proper preparation and attention to details are not attributes of our political class.

    Though we were also constantly told that claims about how integrated we were within the EU were vast exaggerations and that the EU had supposedly minimal control of our lives.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 13,748

    TOPPING said:

    felix said:

    T. May has had a very difficult task from the start - made much worse by the disaster of the GE for which she deserves and has accepted the full blame. However, given the intransigence and occasional vindictiveness of the EU negotiators she has probably done as well as anyone could have done thus far. The negotiations , as expected , have not gone well - their quality has only been exceeded in awfulness by the woeful state of the news commentary throughout, which is partial on both sides, untruthful on both sides and unrealistic on both sides. Indeed the awfulness of the referendum campaign continues unabated.

    I expect there will be an agreement of sorts which will be sub-optimal for both sides without being catastrophic for either and the commentariat will move on - which most of the public did some time ago.

    We are where we are because Theresa May triggered Article 50 when she did and drew her red lines where she did.
    @SouthamObserver many congrats on your news.

    Plenty more time to post on PB from Southam Towers I hope!

    Cheers - it's been quite a few weeks!!

    I am going to be working inside the merged company for a while, at least. There was a rollover element to the deal which means I still have some skin in the game. It's a really interesting merger that creates a lot of opportunities - we have a strong and growing Asia presence, they have none; they do 10% of their business in Latin America, we do nothing there; we are both strong in different verticals in the US and Europe. Our tech is better than theirs, their subscription sales operation is better than ours, etc. Combined we are a 350 person, £50 million a year turnover business with a very good chance to scale pretty quickly. If I can find something useful and enjoyable to do in helping that to happen, why not?

    Fantastic!

    They do say the secret in life is to find something you enjoy doing and then get someone to pay you to do it.
  • SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 26,638
    Foxy said:

    TOPPING said:

    felix said:

    T. May has had a very difficult task from the start - made much worse by the disaster of the GE for which she deserves and has accepted the full blame. However, given the intransigence and occasional vindictiveness of the EU negotiators she has probably done as well as anyone could have done thus far. The negotiations , as expected , have not gone well - their quality has only been exceeded in awfulness by the woeful state of the news commentary throughout, which is partial on both sides, untruthful on both sides and unrealistic on both sides. Indeed the awfulness of the referendum campaign continues unabated.

    I expect there will be an agreement of sorts which will be sub-optimal for both sides without being catastrophic for either and the commentariat will move on - which most of the public did some time ago.

    We are where we are because Theresa May triggered Article 50 when she did and drew her red lines where she did.
    @SouthamObserver many congrats on your news.

    Plenty more time to post on PB from Southam Towers I hope!

    Cheers - it's been quite a few weeks!!

    I am going to be working inside the merged company for a while, at least. There was a rollover element to the deal which means I still have some skin in the game. It's a really interesting merger that creates a lot of opportunities - we have a strong and growing Asia presence, they have none; they do 10% of their business in Latin America, we do nothing there; we are both strong in different verticals in the US and Europe. Our tech is better than theirs, their subscription sales operation is better than ours, etc. Combined we are a 350 person, £50 million a year turnover business with a very good chance to scale pretty quickly. If I can find something useful and enjoyable to do in helping that to happen, why not?

    Yes, congratulations! If the job remains interesting then worth sticking, but never too late for a career change if you fancy a new challenge.

    I really like a lot of the stuff I do and if I can focus on that I will carry on working. If not, I'll drift softly into semi-retirement, read all those books I never got round to reading, do a bit of consultancy and write a load more PB articles!!

  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 42,885
    I agree given we will be staying in the single market and customs union in most respects anyway until December 2020 whatever deal is agreed by next March it is really just the technical fact of leaving the EU May wants to ensure by then whatever the details of it.

    The real details of whether we can get a FTA or not will come during the transition period after which we will have left the single market and customs union
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 42,885
    Alistair said:

    To stop IndyRef2 the fudge must continue past October 2018. If there is no clear future destination there is no tugger for IndyRef2.

    Fudge until December 2020 then unionist majority at Holyrood 2021 would suit May fine
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 20,834
    Foxy said:

    "Maybe historians will look back at today and deem it to be Theresa’s finest hour."

    This is a keeper.

    Yes, it is hard to see Theresa managing deftly to come out with a coherent and viable proposal.

    It is particularly absurd that it has taken 2 years for this meeting to happen. Fail to prepare? prepare to fail.
    I think that this is the biggest problem. Why did this meeting not take place before Article 50 was even triggered? It really should have. In fairness there were some meetings before May's set piece speeches and also before the stage one deal was done in December last year but the lack of clarity about what we actually want in detail has been too profound to be anything other than deliberate.

    May has used this ambiguity to keep a disunited government together. In the meantime the negotiations with the EU have narrowed the choices (although that might not have happened in the same way if we had a clear position from the start). If there is a lack of ambiguity after today it is very hard to imagine the Cabinet being the same as it is this morning.
  • SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 26,638
    TOPPING said:

    TOPPING said:

    felix said:

    T. May has had a very difficult task from the start - made much worse by the disaster of the GE for which she deserves and has accepted the full blame. However, given the intransigence and occasional vindictiveness of the EU negotiators she has probably done as well as anyone could have done thus far. The negotiations , as expected , have not gone well - their quality has only been exceeded in awfulness by the woeful state of the news commentary throughout, which is partial on both sides, untruthful on both sides and unrealistic on both sides. Indeed the awfulness of the referendum campaign continues unabated.

    I expect there will be an agreement of sorts which will be sub-optimal for both sides without being catastrophic for either and the commentariat will move on - which most of the public did some time ago.

    We are where we are because Theresa May triggered Article 50 when she did and drew her red lines where she did.
    @SouthamObserver many congrats on your news.

    Plenty more time to post on PB from Southam Towers I hope!

    Cheers - it's been quite a few weeks!!

    I am going to be working inside the merged company for a while, at least. There was a rollover element to the deal which means I still have some skin in the game. It's a really interesting merger that creates a lot of opportunities - we have a strong and growing Asia presence, they have none; they do 10% of their business in Latin America, we do nothing there; we are both strong in different verticals in the US and Europe. Our tech is better than theirs, their subscription sales operation is better than ours, etc. Combined we are a 350 person, £50 million a year turnover business with a very good chance to scale pretty quickly. If I can find something useful and enjoyable to do in helping that to happen, why not?

    Fantastic!

    They do say the secret in life is to find something you enjoy doing and then get someone to pay you to do it.

    I still can't get my head round it to be honest. I know I am really keen to see what happens next, though. And I have the luxury of choice, which is the best thing of all. Anyway, enough of that now. I am one lucky sod and will stop showing off!!

  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 42,885

    "Maybe historians will look back at today and deem it to be Theresa’s finest hour."

    This is a keeper.

    Boris clearly hopes any fudged deal with the EU will be May's Munich Agreement, then he can be Churchill to her Chamberlain and come back from the dead
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 15,230
    The new model being presented to Cabinet today is called the Single Standards Model.
  • NemtynakhtNemtynakht Posts: 674
    On the current outlined agreement it will not happen as there are enough MPs outside of the cabinet who will ruin her life. She may be able to get this through parliament with the help of the opposition but 70mps is enough to trigger an annual leadership contest. Penelopising is not a strategy for Government as the last option remaining is in lots of cases the worst.

    Big business making announcements in the run up is obviously an unsubtle project fear mark z, and what happened to those previous economic and business predictions - where is the recession and the 5 million unemployed? I fear the next stage will be a second referendum, and a vote between this deal and no deal -it wouldn’t surprise me if no deal won.
  • SlackbladderSlackbladder Posts: 6,086
    The brutal fact is that politics is the art of the possible, not the art of the impossible.

    We need a deal, lets get a deal, and lets get it done.
  • RogerRoger Posts: 9,401
    TOPPING said:

    felix said:

    T. May has had a very difficult task from the start - made much worse by the disaster of the GE for which she deserves and has accepted the full blame. However, given the intransigence and occasional vindictiveness of the EU negotiators she has probably done as well as anyone could have done thus far. The negotiations , as expected , have not gone well - their quality has only been exceeded in awfulness by the woeful state of the news commentary throughout, which is partial on both sides, untruthful on both sides and unrealistic on both sides. Indeed the awfulness of the referendum campaign continues unabated.

    I expect there will be an agreement of sorts which will be sub-optimal for both sides without being catastrophic for either and the commentariat will move on - which most of the public did some time ago.

    We are where we are because Theresa May triggered Article 50 when she did and drew her red lines where she did.
    @SouthamObserver many congrats on your news.

    Plenty more time to post on PB from Southam Towers I hope!
    I've just tracked down all these Southam references. Well done! Just shows that if you walk with the Angels by supporting Labour you get rich. Look no further than Tony Blair!
  • felixfelix Posts: 7,687

    Theresa May’s strategy is to penelopise, always work to put off the fateful choice until it is made by default. I doubt that will change today.

    I think that credits her with too much strategy.

    Her behaviour is driven by her weak parliamentary position. Had she got a big majority she’d have reached a decision many moons ago and used her terrible two to tell her opponents (on both sides) to go f**k themselves.
    Of course. I see there is talk of a pre-emptive no from Barnier. As ever neither side covering themselves with glory.
  • not_on_firenot_on_fire Posts: 2,376
    Scott_P said:
    Looks like they got a fag to bring some fudge
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 31,793
    Hardly a fear - we know he will do so. There's no point in telling him the cabinet is united on a new, brilliant offer, when he can read and see that around half think it's terrible, but at best were brought on board by last minute semantic word changes. The options are to have the tory party confrontation and if they survive to see if the winning side can persuade the EU, or commit to no deal.

    The EU may love fudge, but only the kind they make themselves. Presenting a fudge to them is not going to work.
  • SlackbladderSlackbladder Posts: 6,086

    Foxy said:

    TOPPING said:

    felix said:

    T. May has had a very difficult task from the start - made much worse by the disaster of the GE for which she deserves and has accepted the full blame. However, given the intransigence and occasional vindictiveness of the EU negotiators she has probably done as well as anyone could have done thus far. The negotiations , as expected , have not gone well - their quality has only been exceeded in awfulness by the woeful state of the news commentary throughout, which is partial on both sides, untruthful on both sides and unrealistic on both sides. Indeed the awfulness of the referendum campaign continues unabated.

    I expect there will be an agreement of sorts which will be sub-optimal for both sides without being catastrophic for either and the commentariat will move on - which most of the public did some time ago.

    We are where we are because Theresa May triggered Article 50 when she did and drew her red lines where she did.
    @SouthamObserver many congrats on your news.

    Plenty more time to post on PB from Southam Towers I hope!

    Cheers - it's been quite a few weeks!!

    I am going to be working inside the merged company for a while, at least. There was a rollover element to the deal which means I still have some skin in the game. It's a really interesting merger that creates a lot of opportunities - we have a strong and growing Asia presence, they have none; they do 10% of their business in Latin America, we do nothing there; we are both strong in different verticals in the US and Europe. Our tech is better than theirs, their subscription sales operation is better than ours, etc. Combined we are a 350 person, £50 million a year turnover business with a very good chance to scale pretty quickly. If I can find something useful and enjoyable to do in helping that to happen, why not?

    Yes, congratulations! If the job remains interesting then worth sticking, but never too late for a career change if you fancy a new challenge.

    I really like a lot of the stuff I do and if I can focus on that I will carry on working. If not, I'll drift softly into semi-retirement, read all those books I never got round to reading, do a bit of consultancy and write a load more PB articles!!

    Well you've certainly earned it...well done!
  • CD13CD13 Posts: 4,523
    Mr Observer,

    Congratulations. I can recommend retirement, but that depends on your age, I suspect.
  • felixfelix Posts: 7,687
    Roger said:

    TOPPING said:

    felix said:

    T. May has had a very difficult task from the start - made much worse by the disaster of the GE for which she deserves and has accepted the full blame. However, given the intransigence and occasional vindictiveness of the EU negotiators she has probably done as well as anyone could have done thus far. The negotiations , as expected , have not gone well - their quality has only been exceeded in awfulness by the woeful state of the news commentary throughout, which is partial on both sides, untruthful on both sides and unrealistic on both sides. Indeed the awfulness of the referendum campaign continues unabated.

    I expect there will be an agreement of sorts which will be sub-optimal for both sides without being catastrophic for either and the commentariat will move on - which most of the public did some time ago.

    We are where we are because Theresa May triggered Article 50 when she did and drew her red lines where she did.
    @SouthamObserver many congrats on your news.

    Plenty more time to post on PB from Southam Towers I hope!
    I've just tracked down all these Southam references. Well done! Just shows that if you walk with the Angels by supporting Labour you get rich. Look no further than Tony Blair!
    So all rich people support Labour. It's a view.
  • RogerRoger Posts: 9,401

    Scott_P said:
    Looks like they got a fag to bring some fudge
    An Eton Mess. My favourite
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 20,834
    Barnesian said:

    ydoethur said:

    Barnesian said:

    Ken Clarke's comments about Gove in the clip above are very interesting. It suggests he is a loose cannon.

    Clarke, or Gove?

    If the latter, any given post of mine on the subject should have told you that a while ago.
    Gove. As a loose cannon, sometimes he makes destructive change (eg education) and sometimes constructive change (environment) but he just can't help himself firing off. His tearing up of a Brexit paper is a small example of his need for drama. So is his last minute withdrawal of support for Boris. If you want dramatic change and an interesting experience, vote Gove for PM. He is the pole opposite of May. He is the one to watch at Chequers.
    I agree with this on both the good sides and the bad. If there is to be serious resistance to the PM's position it will need a coherent and well constructed argument based on the large volume of papers the cabinet were issued with yesterday. I really don't see anyone in the cabinet capable of doing that other than Gove. He could well provide the structure within which the rather more incoherent opposition coalesces.

    I am not saying Gove's analysis will necessarily be optimal or realistic or even possible but it will have intellectual heft and that counts for a lot in an argument. He is also brave enough to walk away if he has to. I am not sure if May is.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 20,296
    Forget the never-ending Brexit saga, this is the most important story of the day:

    "UK engineers to design new Mars rover"

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-44728947

    Sample return is absolutely vital, not only scientifically, but also politically wrt planetary protection.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 31,793
    DavidL said:

    Foxy said:

    "Maybe historians will look back at today and deem it to be Theresa’s finest hour."

    This is a keeper.

    Yes, it is hard to see Theresa managing deftly to come out with a coherent and viable proposal.

    It is particularly absurd that it has taken 2 years for this meeting to happen. Fail to prepare? prepare to fail.
    I think that this is the biggest problem. Why did this meeting not take place before Article 50 was even triggered? It really should have. In fairness there were some meetings before May's set piece speeches and also before the stage one deal was done in December last year but the lack of clarity about what we actually want in detail has been too profound to be anything other than deliberate.

    May has used this ambiguity to keep a disunited government together. In the meantime the negotiations with the EU have narrowed the choices (although that might not have happened in the same way if we had a clear position from the start). If there is a lack of ambiguity after today it is very hard to imagine the Cabinet being the same as it is this morning.
    100% right.

    Tough job and all that, but the deliberate choice to not get agreement among less than 2 dozen cabinet members before now, just pushing it back and back, is not defendable.
    The Tories ain't getting my vote next time. They had best hope people who live in a seat that matters do not react the same way.
  • RoyalBlueRoyalBlue Posts: 2,337
    I think that the most interesting discussion at Chequers will be what May intends do when her compromise plan is rejected by Barnier.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 31,793
    edited July 6
    RoyalBlue said:

    I think that the most interesting discussion at Chequers will be what May intends do when her compromise plan is rejected by Barnier.

    I don't think they will discuss that. It's about getting them through the day, and that crisis will wait.

    I'm not convinced they'll have agreement on what to have for lunch.
  • RoyalBlueRoyalBlue Posts: 2,337
    kle4 said:

    DavidL said:

    Foxy said:

    "Maybe historians will look back at today and deem it to be Theresa’s finest hour."

    This is a keeper.

    Yes, it is hard to see Theresa managing deftly to come out with a coherent and viable proposal.

    It is particularly absurd that it has taken 2 years for this meeting to happen. Fail to prepare? prepare to fail.
    I think that this is the biggest problem. Why did this meeting not take place before Article 50 was even triggered? It really should have. In fairness there were some meetings before May's set piece speeches and also before the stage one deal was done in December last year but the lack of clarity about what we actually want in detail has been too profound to be anything other than deliberate.

    May has used this ambiguity to keep a disunited government together. In the meantime the negotiations with the EU have narrowed the choices (although that might not have happened in the same way if we had a clear position from the start). If there is a lack of ambiguity after today it is very hard to imagine the Cabinet being the same as it is this morning.
    100% right.

    Tough job and all that, but the deliberate choice to not get agreement among less than 2 dozen cabinet members before now, just pushing it back and back, is not defendable.
    The Tories ain't getting my vote next time. They had best hope people who live in a seat that matters do not react the same way.
    We’ll have a new leader by then. Won’t you listen to what they have to say?
  • AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 20,202
    Two points about Michael Gove.

    First, of the leading Brexiters, he will be the least known to the EU negotiators.

    Secondly, they will have picked up on his musings about the whole EU being democratically liberated by Brexit.

    If Michael Gove were given a more prominent role in negotiations now, the EU will be less certain they know how to handle him and still less enthralled with the British negotiating team. Given the point that has been reached, I'd have thought that was a gambit worth trying right now. Goodwill is not in such abundance that the loss of some will make much odds but instilling a bit of uncertainty in your counterpart probably is worth something.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 42,885
    kle4 said:

    DavidL said:

    Foxy said:

    "Maybe historians will look back at today and deem it to be Theresa’s finest hour."

    This is a keeper.

    Yes, it is hard to see Theresa managing deftly to come out with a coherent and viable proposal.

    It is particularly absurd that it has taken 2 years for this meeting to happen. Fail to prepare? prepare to fail.
    I think that this is the biggest problem. Why did this meeting not take place before Article 50 was even triggered? It really should have. In fairness there were some meetings before May's set piece speeches and also before the stage one deal was done in December last year but the lack of clarity about what we actually want in detail has been too profound to be anything other than deliberate.

    May has used this ambiguity to keep a disunited government together. In the meantime the negotiations with the EU have narrowed the choices (although that might not have happened in the same way if we had a clear position from the start). If there is a lack of ambiguity after today it is very hard to imagine the Cabinet being the same as it is this morning.
    100% right.

    Tough job and all that, but the deliberate choice to not get agreement among less than 2 dozen cabinet members before now, just pushing it back and back, is not defendable.
    The Tories ain't getting my vote next time. They had best hope people who live in a seat that matters do not react the same way.
    Did you vote Tory in 2015 and 2017?
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 3,041

    Stephen Bush has put forward a theory that she has actually played a blinder to frustrate the aims of the phobes. It certainly is the case that leaving without a deal is going to be even harder with no preparation so that strengthens the soft Brexit argument.

    straw clutching at
    Yes, you are probably right. But the alternative is to accept that we have not only engaged on a highly damaging course of action by choosing to leave the European Union, but have also gone about doing it in the most damaging way.

    We now know without a shadow of doubt that those who had spent years campaigning to leave the EU had absolutely no idea about how the EU works, how integrated the UK is in EU-wide structures and institutions, how the customs union and the single market enable underpinned manufacturing business models or how free trade agreements are done. They made promises that they could not hope to keep, because they had absolutely no idea. Instead of doing the hard yards and the detailed thinking around how to leave, they preferred to talk to each other about high concepts and new world orders. Such privilege.

    Proper preparation and attention to details are not attributes of our political class.

    Though we were also constantly told that claims about how integrated we were within the EU were vast exaggerations and that the EU had supposedly minimal control of our lives.
    It is not that the EU has control of our lives, it is that we have taken full advantage of being in the Single Market. The EU is not in control of integrated supply chains, and cross border trade in foods and goods. It is merely the enabler of such things.
This discussion has been closed.