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politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » On this big day let’s remember Ken Clarke’s assessment of TMay

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  • tpfkartpfkar Posts: 1,545
    houndtang said:

    The biggest errors have been a. Bothering to negotiate with the EU at all and b. Ramping things up about red lines so that a humiliation was inevitable.

    Just 2 on the long list. I'd suggest that c. assuming that the negotiations could be based on resolving conflicts in the Tory party and d. asserting the will of the pensioners against the workers would ever be sustainable in the opposition of of businesses and working people.

    I'm sure it would be a long list if we keep going.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 44,065
    Scott_P said:
    Don't get them started on soft fruit again!
  • Carolus_RexCarolus_Rex Posts: 1,414
    edited July 2018
    Scott_P said:
    He must be the only farmer in Faversham planning to expand on fruit production. Most of them are intent on turning their fields over to housebuilding as fast as planning laws will let them!

    Edit: pardon my brief NIMBY moment there...
  • PolruanPolruan Posts: 2,083

    TGOHF said:

    Cheryl Baker has more chance.
    Cheryl Baker is very well-qualified. Like the Leaver Cabinet ministers, she knows all about the Land Of Make Believe and unlike the Leaver Cabinet ministers she knows all about Making Your Mind Up.
    Bucks Fizz: the Brexiters’ spoonerism of choice.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 44,065
    edited July 2018
    Polruan said:

    TGOHF said:

    Cheryl Baker has more chance.
    Cheryl Baker is very well-qualified. Like the Leaver Cabinet ministers, she knows all about the Land Of Make Believe and unlike the Leaver Cabinet ministers she knows all about Making Your Mind Up.
    Bucks Fizz: the Brexiters’ spoonerism of choice.
    Well spotted! Though Cheryl Baker did make her name on the European stage.

    In other news, Bone wins the prize for loyalty:

    https://twitter.com/PeterBoneUK/status/1015152226719977472?s=19
  • Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    https://twitter.com/jennirsl/status/1015193577629147136

    "Johnson wants a hard one." Fnarr, fnarr
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 113,962
    Scott_P said:

    https://twitter.com/jennirsl/status/1015193577629147136

    "Johnson wants a hard one." Fnarr, fnarr

    See I said that three hours ago.

    Boris is a shit.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 44,065
    Scott_P said:

    https://twitter.com/jennirsl/status/1015193577629147136

    "Johnson wants a hard one." Fnarr, fnarr

    My money is on Professor Plum with the lead pipe in the Library.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,709
    surby said:

    LAB: 60.4% (+27.2)
    CON: 33.0% (-8.4)
    LDEM: 6.6% (+6.6)

    No UKIP (-25.4) as prev.

    Labour GAIN from Conservative.

    Ohhhh Jereeemmmy Cooorrrbbbbyyyyynnnn

    YG are the new ICM Kaboooomers presumanly

    Other Britain Elects posts include:

    Kingsmead (Bath & North East Somerset) result:

    LDEM: 41.1% (+10.0)
    LAB: 24.6% (+11.6)
    CON: 21.3% (-6.8)
    GRN: 13.0% (-9.5)

    LDem GAIN from Con.

    No UKIP (-5.3) as prev.


    On "the UK changing the electoral system from First Past the Post to a system of Proportional Representation":

    Support: 51%
    Oppose: 13%


    "I think the share of seats a party wins should closely match the share of votes it receives":

    Agree: 66%
    Disagree: 7%
    The Tories are getting hammered. Tactical anti-Tory voting is back.
    Not true in either the polls, where the Tories are ahead, or May's local elections where the Tories tied Labour.

    Even William Hague gained council by elections every Thursday, that is the bare minimum an opposition leader needs to achieve
  • El_CapitanoEl_Capitano Posts: 3,870

    Scott_P said:

    https://twitter.com/jennirsl/status/1015193577629147136

    "Johnson wants a hard one." Fnarr, fnarr

    See I said that three hours ago.

    Boris is a shit.
    Jenni Russell's other tweet backs you up:

    https://twitter.com/jennirsl/status/1015185767923109889
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 44,065
    HYUFD said:

    surby said:

    LAB: 60.4% (+27.2)
    CON: 33.0% (-8.4)
    LDEM: 6.6% (+6.6)

    No UKIP (-25.4) as prev.

    Labour GAIN from Conservative.

    Ohhhh Jereeemmmy Cooorrrbbbbyyyyynnnn

    YG are the new ICM Kaboooomers presumanly

    Other Britain Elects posts include:

    Kingsmead (Bath & North East Somerset) result:

    LDEM: 41.1% (+10.0)
    LAB: 24.6% (+11.6)
    CON: 21.3% (-6.8)
    GRN: 13.0% (-9.5)

    LDem GAIN from Con.

    No UKIP (-5.3) as prev.


    On "the UK changing the electoral system from First Past the Post to a system of Proportional Representation":

    Support: 51%
    Oppose: 13%


    "I think the share of seats a party wins should closely match the share of votes it receives":

    Agree: 66%
    Disagree: 7%
    The Tories are getting hammered. Tactical anti-Tory voting is back.
    Not true in either the polls, where the Tories are ahead, or May's local elections where the Tories tied Labour.

    Even William Hague gained council by elections every Thursday, that is the bare minimum an opposition leader needs to achieve
    What really kills governments is incompetence, lack of direction and infighting. May has the full house of these.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 49,958
    TGOHF said:

    Not a good tactic for the Brexiteers to resign today.

    Best to keep powder dry and organise a challenge to May as Conservative leader - then resign en bloc.

    Why resign ? She's so weak they don't have to. Dare her to fire them.

    Exit meeting - leak its a crap deal. Wait for the EU to reject it. Say I told you so..

    And if the EU accept it, then it must REALLY be a crap deal.....
  • AnorakAnorak Posts: 6,621
    Polruan said:

    Cheryl Baker is very well-qualified. Like the Leaver Cabinet ministers, she knows all about the Land Of Make Believe and unlike the Leaver Cabinet ministers she knows all about Making Your Mind Up.

    Bucks Fizz: the Brexiters’ spoonerism of choice.
    Bravo.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,709
    MaxPB said:

    TOPPING said:

    MaxPB said:

    If this all ends with Parliament voting through leaving to the EEA/EFTA it would be a solid result in the end. It's definitely preferable to whatever frankenbrexit Theresa has come up with.

    As I posted upthread it is the only and logical outcome. We have already compromised to get to the third way. For all kinds of reasons that will prove impossible, so it is only a small compromise further to get to EEA/EFTA.

    And as it happens Dr North is in agreement also.
    I think parliament doing it against the wishes of the leadership would also get the Tories off the hook for not restricting free movement and keep the party in the running g for 2022.
    The Commons has voted by a 200 vote majority to leave the single market, with 400 seats having voted Leave a majority of MPs are not going to vote to keep free movement unchecked and without any new controls as they know it would be political suicide in their constituencies.

    EEA/EFTA is only an option in a decade once immigration has been brought down and under control
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 76,274
    edited July 2018
    It is why if we had voted to Remain we would be in ever closer union, despite what Call Me Dave's Neville Chamberlain-esque deal said.

    The UKs position of being in the EU, but on a different track to every other nation that is being driven by the EU centre towards an ever closer integration can't work. We are either in or out.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,709
    Foxy said:

    HYUFD said:

    surby said:

    LAB: 60.4% (+27.2)
    CON: 33.0% (-8.4)
    LDEM: 6.6% (+6.6)

    No UKIP (-25.4) as prev.

    Labour GAIN from Conservative.

    Ohhhh Jereeemmmy Cooorrrbbbbyyyyynnnn

    YG are the new ICM Kaboooomers presumanly

    Other Britain Elects posts include:

    Kingsmead (Bath & North East Somerset) result:

    LDEM: 41.1% (+10.0)
    LAB: 24.6% (+11.6)
    CON: 21.3% (-6.8)
    GRN: 13.0% (-9.5)

    LDem GAIN from Con.

    No UKIP (-5.3) as prev.


    On "the UK changing the electoral system from First Past the Post to a system of Proportional Representation":

    Support: 51%
    Oppose: 13%


    "I think the share of seats a party wins should closely match the share of votes it receives":

    Agree: 66%
    Disagree: 7%
    The Tories are getting hammered. Tactical anti-Tory voting is back.
    Not true in either the polls, where the Tories are ahead, or May's local elections where the Tories tied Labour.

    Even William Hague gained council by elections every Thursday, that is the bare minimum an opposition leader needs to achieve
    What really kills governments is incompetence, lack of direction and infighting. May has the full house of these.
    Not always if the alternative is worse see 1992 and even in 2010 voters balked at replacing Brown with a Tory majority given the prospect of heavy austerity
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 47,787

    It is why if we had voted to Remain we would be in ever closer union, despite what Call Me Dave's Neville Chamberlain-esque deal said.

    The UKs position of being in the EU, but on a different path to every closer integration can't work. We are either in or out.
    We're probably more integrated now than we were in 2016 in most practical ways, and geopolitically our interests are more aligned with the rest of Europe than at any time.
  • surby said:

    surby said:
    “We would not understand if the UK falls out of the Galileo project.

    “Beyond all the bickering and tactics and negotiation, both sides have a strong interest for further close cooperation with the UK on security and defence matters.

    “There are only two serious military forces in the EU today and one is the UK. Guess who is the other; it’s not Germany.”
    In any case I do not want the UK to be in the top 5 militarily in the EU. We will save a lot of money.
    History is full of countries who didn't have strong military and then suffered for it
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 76,274
    edited July 2018

    It is why if we had voted to Remain we would be in ever closer union, despite what Call Me Dave's Neville Chamberlain-esque deal said.

    The UKs position of being in the EU, but on a different path to every closer integration can't work. We are either in or out.
    We're probably more integrated now than we were in 2016 in most practical ways, and geopolitically our interests are more aligned with the rest of Europe than at any time.
    It wasn't a pro / anti Brexit point, just a fact. For many closer union is a good thing, for others not.

    My point was that option wasn't Remain with the same level of integration vs leave (with unknown level of tied to EU), it was every closer union vs who knows.
  • JonnyJimmyJonnyJimmy Posts: 2,548
    An old friend from uni lives now in the Alps, working as a chef at a ski resort.

    I noticed a strange facebook post from him this morning, "Today we're with the bruises. That's my!!"

    I was worried for a moment that he'd had a fall snowboarding, or been beaten up.

    Then realised it was auto translated by facebook from, "Aujourd'hui on est avec les bleus. C'mon!!"

    He's just supporting France today :)
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 47,787

    It is why if we had voted to Remain we would be in ever closer union, despite what Call Me Dave's Neville Chamberlain-esque deal said.

    The UKs position of being in the EU, but on a different path to every closer integration can't work. We are either in or out.
    We're probably more integrated now than we were in 2016 in most practical ways, and geopolitically our interests are more aligned with the rest of Europe than at any time.
    It wasn't a pro / anti Brexit point, just a fact. For many closer union is a good thing, for others not. My point was that option wasn't Remain with the same level of integration vs leave (with unknown level of tied to EU), it was every closer union vs who knows.
    I agree with you, but I just think that if voting for Brexit forces us to confront that reality, it can only lead to us choosing 'in' in the end. 'Soft Brexit' is just another way of deluding ourselves.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 76,274

    An old friend from uni lives now in the Alps, working as a chef at a ski resort.

    I noticed a strange facebook post from him this morning, "Today we're with the bruises. That's my!!"

    I was worried for a moment that he'd had a fall snowboarding, or been beaten up.

    Then realised it was auto translated by facebook from, "Aujourd'hui on est avec les bleus. C'mon!!"

    He's just supporting France today :)

    That's a pretty damn big fail by the auto-translate.
  • Stark_DawningStark_Dawning Posts: 9,232
    Surely someone has to resign today. If we get the usual 'Cabinet now more unified and content than they've been in decades' stuff only for Boris to recommence his sniping within days, then I'll be peeved.
  • logical_songlogical_song Posts: 9,669
    TOPPING said:

    MaxPB said:

    If this all ends with Parliament voting through leaving to the EEA/EFTA it would be a solid result in the end. It's definitely preferable to whatever frankenbrexit Theresa has come up with.

    As I posted upthread it is the only and logical outcome. We have already compromised to get to the third way. For all kinds of reasons that will prove impossible, so it is only a small compromise further to get to EEA/EFTA.

    And as it happens Dr North is in agreement also.
    Quotes from Dr Noth article:
    "I used to work with Owen Paterson as his confidential political advisor – which I did for well over a decade, until just after the EU referendum – part of my job was to talk him down from some of the more stupid positions he would occasionally adopt."
    Wow, that must have been a full time job.
  • RobDRobD Posts: 58,941
    Anorak said:

    RobD said:

    surby said:



    Sorry, we must get a vote to get us out of this horrible mess !!!!

    And if the vote doesn't go your way again, another vote?
    Good point. We also don't need any more elections, ever. We've already decided, no point changing our minds. That would be undemocratic.
    I thought the polls were unchanged on this topic? In any case, ~thirty years is the baseline for time between EU referendums.
  • CD13CD13 Posts: 6,349
    We've had an artificial argument for the last two years.

    In 1975, free trade was the issue, and rightly so. We voted in favour of a free trade in goods. Issues like standardisation follow on logically but I'm still not sure why FOM does too.

    Now we have a problem with freedom of movement. You can call this a 'tidying up exercise' but it's proved to be a sticking point. Not just here but across the EU, and this will continue while the EU persist in linking these two things.

    We've avoided an in depth analysis because of a fear of being thought racist, although you could also argue it's racist to separate out certain predominantly white European nations.

    I have sympathy for the concept of completely open borders. However, the loss of control as much as the practicability makes me have doubts. Restricting this concept to 27 favoured countries is a fudge anyway. I understand it was brought in to move on to a European federation/single country where borders would be illogical anyway.

    If we had voted in a referendum on this issue as it came up, it would have made make sense. Total Brexit may never have been necessary. Now the economic, trade and border issues have been entangled, matters have become confused.

    I'm not apportioning blame although it's very tempting, but can we at least have a sensible conversation now? Or the bitterness will never subside.


  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 49,958
    It's not an ideal world.

    Do you want the fucking forty billion or not?
  • welshowlwelshowl Posts: 4,460

    What a horror vision of continental hegemony.

    L’etat c’est moi would fit Barnier to a T.
  • logical_songlogical_song Posts: 9,669
    RobD said:

    Anorak said:

    RobD said:

    surby said:



    Sorry, we must get a vote to get us out of this horrible mess !!!!

    And if the vote doesn't go your way again, another vote?
    Good point. We also don't need any more elections, ever. We've already decided, no point changing our minds. That would be undemocratic.
    I thought the polls were unchanged on this topic? In any case, ~thirty years is the baseline for time between EU referendums.
    http://uk.businessinsider.com/britain-bregret-theresa-may-soft-brexit-2018-5
  • AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 30,340

    It's not an ideal world.

    Do you want the fucking forty billion or not?
    Right now I think they're leaning towards not, unless they get their own way. In the grand scheme of things it's not that much money really.
  • RobDRobD Posts: 58,941

    RobD said:

    Anorak said:

    RobD said:

    surby said:



    Sorry, we must get a vote to get us out of this horrible mess !!!!

    And if the vote doesn't go your way again, another vote?
    Good point. We also don't need any more elections, ever. We've already decided, no point changing our minds. That would be undemocratic.
    I thought the polls were unchanged on this topic? In any case, ~thirty years is the baseline for time between EU referendums.
    http://uk.businessinsider.com/britain-bregret-theresa-may-soft-brexit-2018-5
    Did someone say margin of error?
  • MortimerMortimer Posts: 13,921
    welshowl said:


    What a horror vision of continental hegemony.

    L’etat c’est moi would fit Barnier to a T.
    The vision of the EU doesn’t fit with a common law jursidiction. This is the fundamental contradiction that led to Brexit.
  • david_herdsondavid_herdson Posts: 17,401

    Surely someone has to resign today. If we get the usual 'Cabinet now more unified and content than they've been in decades' stuff only for Boris to recommence his sniping within days, then I'll be peeved.

    Shadsy is offering 9/4 against any resignations before the end of the weekend (check the timeframe but I think that's right).
  • brendan16brendan16 Posts: 2,315
    edited July 2018
    Foxy said:

    Polruan said:

    TGOHF said:

    Cheryl Baker has more chance.
    Cheryl Baker is very well-qualified. Like the Leaver Cabinet ministers, she knows all about the Land Of Make Believe and unlike the Leaver Cabinet ministers she knows all about Making Your Mind Up.
    Bucks Fizz: the Brexiters’ spoonerism of choice.
    Well spotted! Though Cheryl Baker did make her name on the European stage.

    In other news, Bone wins the prize for loyalty:

    https://twitter.com/PeterBoneUK/status/1015152226719977472?s=19
    Talking of Bucks Fizz - now the FIzz following endless legal wrangles - does the apparently defunct Aston's taxi service have any connection to Jay Aston the other female member? She was a better singer than Cheryl Baker but never quite got the same recognition.

    Her middle name is also Hilda - the same as the last bl**dy difficult woman to occupy No10!

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jay_Aston

    The group also released run for your life - which might be necessary if there are no taxis.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 58,038
    Why would anyone love having a security team?
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 47,787
    Mortimer said:

    welshowl said:


    What a horror vision of continental hegemony.

    L’etat c’est moi would fit Barnier to a T.
    The vision of the EU doesn’t fit with a common law jursidiction. This is the fundamental contradiction that led to Brexit.
    If there's an inherent contradiction with the UK, it's not common law per se, but the fact that we are ourselves a union of nations without a written constitution.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 76,274
    The Canadian prime minister, Justin Trudeau, has for the first time publicly acknowledged that he apologised in 2000 to a reporter who alleged he groped her, but said he was very confident he did not act inappropriately.

    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2018/jul/06/trudeau-i-apologised-at-once-to-reporter-behind-groping-claim-canada-2000-music-festival
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,709
    edited July 2018

    Why would anyone love having a security team?
    Having outriders with your chauffeur driven ministerial car, police escorts and special branch men with earpieces around you does wonders for the ego I imagine and only the PM, the Home and Foreign and Northern Ireland Secretaries and the Leader of the Opposition during a general election get that treatment amongst politicians and only senior royals and the Heads of MI5 and MI6 beyond them
  • OblitusSumMeOblitusSumMe Posts: 9,143
    CD13 said:

    In 1975, free trade was the issue, and rightly so. We voted in favour of a free trade in goods. Issues like standardisation follow on logically but I'm still not sure why FOM does too.

    It's like Tebbit said, "Get on your bike!"

    For an economy to function efficiently Labour needs to be free to move to where it is needed. The idea of the Common, and now Single, Market was to create a larger economy with the advantages of scale enjoyed by the US so that Europe could continue to compete.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 58,038
    So more huffing, puffing and ponderous piffle from Boris, Fox, JRM etc all over the rest of the weekend, but no actual action on their part.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 91,392
    How are we hearing this of their phones have been taken away.

    Frankly, the may proposal does not sound, well, sound in that the EU will reject it, but a confrontation should occur so she sacks people or gets ousted, so we at least know which tory faction is winning
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 76,274
    kle4 said:

    How are we hearing this of their phones have been taken away.

    Frankly, the may proposal does not sound, well, sound in that the EU will reject it, but a confrontation should occur so she sacks people or gets ousted, so we at least know which tory faction is winning
    Carrier pigeon?
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 47,787
    Barnier: Theresa May has asked me to wait a while before rejecting her proposal and that is what I will do.

    https://twitter.com/tconnellyrte/status/1015196194384044032?s=21
  • AlistairAlistair Posts: 23,670

    Surely someone has to resign today. If we get the usual 'Cabinet now more unified and content than they've been in decades' stuff only for Boris to recommence his sniping within days, then I'll be peeved.

    Shadsy is offering 9/4 against any resignations before the end of the weekend (check the timeframe but I think that's right).
    Oooooh, I thought was by the end of today. I might be tempted into making a almost certainly losing bet on someone to walk before Monday.
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 35,765
    surby said:

    LAB: 60.4% (+27.2)
    CON: 33.0% (-8.4)
    LDEM: 6.6% (+6.6)

    No UKIP (-25.4) as prev.

    Labour GAIN from Conservative.

    Ohhhh Jereeemmmy Cooorrrbbbbyyyyynnnn

    YG are the new ICM Kaboooomers presumanly

    Other Britain Elects posts include:

    Kingsmead (Bath & North East Somerset) result:

    LDEM: 41.1% (+10.0)
    LAB: 24.6% (+11.6)
    CON: 21.3% (-6.8)
    GRN: 13.0% (-9.5)

    LDem GAIN from Con.

    No UKIP (-5.3) as prev.


    On "the UK changing the electoral system from First Past the Post to a system of Proportional Representation":

    Support: 51%
    Oppose: 13%


    "I think the share of seats a party wins should closely match the share of votes it receives":

    Agree: 66%
    Disagree: 7%
    The Tories are getting hammered. Tactical anti-Tory voting is back.
    You're reading too much into a local by-election.

  • CD13CD13 Posts: 6,349
    Mr SumMe,

    "For an economy to function efficiently Labour needs to be free to move to where it is needed."

    That would certainly suggest that completely open borders should apply. For maximum economic gain, then it should be world-wide, surely? You don't think that might produce an element of strain if 600 billion Chinese wanted to move to California?
  • notmenotme Posts: 3,293

    The Canadian prime minister, Justin Trudeau, has for the first time publicly acknowledged that he apologised in 2000 to a reporter who alleged he groped her, but said he was very confident he did not act inappropriately.

    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2018/jul/06/trudeau-i-apologised-at-once-to-reporter-behind-groping-claim-canada-2000-music-festival

    Lets just make sure that we can all maturely get past it and treat it in the same respectful way that we all did with Donald Trump.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,709
    CD13 said:

    Mr SumMe,

    "For an economy to function efficiently Labour needs to be free to move to where it is needed."

    That would certainly suggest that completely open borders should apply. For maximum economic gain, then it should be world-wide, surely? You don't think that might produce an element of strain if 600 billion Chinese wanted to move to California?

    Open borders work fine for nations which are peaceful and at roughly the same GDP per capita.

    Opening it to all means mass exodus from poorer to richer nations placing huge strain on the latter
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 55,015
    EU: we are waiting for the UK to set out its position

    UK: here you go...

    EU: go f*ck yourself

    (rinse & repeat)
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 47,787
    CD13 said:

    Mr SumMe,

    "For an economy to function efficiently Labour needs to be free to move to where it is needed."

    That would certainly suggest that completely open borders should apply. For maximum economic gain, then it should be world-wide, surely? You don't think that might produce an element of strain if 600 billion Chinese wanted to move to California?

    That's a straw-man given that nobody is proposing that at the moment and even if some people think it might become desirable in a world which had roughly equal levels of development, it is not something that the *European* Union is going to deliver.
  • RoyalBlueRoyalBlue Posts: 3,223
    We don’t want to create a border within the U.K.?

    Piss off Barnier.
  • logical_songlogical_song Posts: 9,669
    CD13 said:

    Mr SumMe,

    "For an economy to function efficiently Labour needs to be free to move to where it is needed."

    That would certainly suggest that completely open borders should apply. For maximum economic gain, then it should be world-wide, surely? You don't think that might produce an element of strain if 600 billion Chinese wanted to move to California?

    That would be quite an event.

    How many population are there in China?
    1.379 billion
    2016
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 40,950
    Polruan said:

    TGOHF said:

    Cheryl Baker has more chance.
    Cheryl Baker is very well-qualified. Like the Leaver Cabinet ministers, she knows all about the Land Of Make Believe and unlike the Leaver Cabinet ministers she knows all about Making Your Mind Up.
    Bucks Fizz: the Brexiters’ spoonerism of choice.
    Outstanding.
  • rpjsrpjs Posts: 3,787

    surby said:

    surby said:
    “We would not understand if the UK falls out of the Galileo project.

    “Beyond all the bickering and tactics and negotiation, both sides have a strong interest for further close cooperation with the UK on security and defence matters.

    “There are only two serious military forces in the EU today and one is the UK. Guess who is the other; it’s not Germany.”
    In any case I do not want the UK to be in the top 5 militarily in the EU. We will save a lot of money.
    History is full of countries who didn't have strong military and then suffered for it
    And even more full of countries that bankrupted themselves through overspending on the military.
  • CD13CD13 Posts: 6,349
    My HYFUD,

    It's a good job that Keith Vaz met the only Rumanian to arrive.

    I'd favour selective immigration. Based on value rather than skin colour. We racists are picky.
  • logical_songlogical_song Posts: 9,669
    RobD said:

    RobD said:

    Anorak said:

    RobD said:

    surby said:



    Sorry, we must get a vote to get us out of this horrible mess !!!!

    And if the vote doesn't go your way again, another vote?
    Good point. We also don't need any more elections, ever. We've already decided, no point changing our minds. That would be undemocratic.
    I thought the polls were unchanged on this topic? In any case, ~thirty years is the baseline for time between EU referendums.
    http://uk.businessinsider.com/britain-bregret-theresa-may-soft-brexit-2018-5
    Did someone say margin of error?
    True, the Bremorse may be even greater.
  • CD13CD13 Posts: 6,349
    edited July 2018
    Mr Song,

    You may have put your finger on my minor decimal error. As an ex-scientist, I will do several mea culpas.

    Anyway, I have to take the 100,000A bus and do some shopping
  • notmenotme Posts: 3,293

    RobD said:

    Anorak said:

    RobD said:

    surby said:



    Sorry, we must get a vote to get us out of this horrible mess !!!!

    And if the vote doesn't go your way again, another vote?
    Good point. We also don't need any more elections, ever. We've already decided, no point changing our minds. That would be undemocratic.
    I thought the polls were unchanged on this topic? In any case, ~thirty years is the baseline for time between EU referendums.
    http://uk.businessinsider.com/britain-bregret-theresa-may-soft-brexit-2018-5
    Hilarious Desperation. The poll doesnt show what the headline hopes it claims. I'll quote:
    "The 1% difference is within the margin of error."
    Right 43% wrong 44%

    They even more absurdly show a graph on how opinion polling has shifted since the referendum. The chart shows 'May' but it has a gap and it looks like theyve excluded the may results because they dont actually help their argument
    http://static4.uk.businessinsider.com/image/5b0ecba47708e9644f558158-1200/opinion poll brexit right or wrong.jpg

    It calls itself Business Insider, it wasnt even worth turning the ad blocker for. If someone here tried to make those kind of claims they would get rightly torn apart. Absolutely utterly pathetic.
  • rpjsrpjs Posts: 3,787
    edited July 2018

    EU: we are waiting for the UK to set out its position

    UK: here you go...

    EU: go f*ck yourself

    (rinse & repeat)

    No it’s more like

    EU: we are waiting for the UK to set out its position.

    UK: We’d like to keep these benefits of membership without any of the obligations

    EU: Er, aren’t you listening? We’ve already told you that you can’t have that. It would undermine the whole point of membership.

    (rinse & repeat)
  • surbysurby Posts: 1,227

    CD13 said:

    Mr SumMe,

    "For an economy to function efficiently Labour needs to be free to move to where it is needed."

    That would certainly suggest that completely open borders should apply. For maximum economic gain, then it should be world-wide, surely? You don't think that might produce an element of strain if 600 billion Chinese wanted to move to California?

    That would be quite an event.

    How many population are there in China?
    1.379 billion
    2016
    Thank God! Vote Leave did not say 1.379m were on their way to the UK.
  • surbysurby Posts: 1,227
    They can't even call Uber. Boris could do with a walk to the station.
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 60,933
    Good afternoon, everyone.

    F1: no huge surprises in first practice. Grosjean appears to have his mojo back.
  • MortimerMortimer Posts: 13,921
    edited July 2018

    Mortimer said:

    welshowl said:


    What a horror vision of continental hegemony.

    L’etat c’est moi would fit Barnier to a T.
    The vision of the EU doesn’t fit with a common law jursidiction. This is the fundamental contradiction that led to Brexit.
    If there's an inherent contradiction with the UK, it's not common law per se, but the fact that we are ourselves a union of nations without a written constitution.
    Written constitutions are for those without imagination or an interest in history.

    GB has survived for over 300 years, and with a Union of Crowns for over 100 years more.

    Come back with your Eurobabble when it has survived longer than that.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 55,015
    edited July 2018
    rpjs said:

    EU: we are waiting for the UK to set out its position

    UK: here you go...

    EU: go f*ck yourself

    (rinse & repeat)

    No it’s more like

    EU: we are waiting for the UK to set out its position.

    UK: We’d like to keep these benefits of membership without any of the obligations

    EU: Er, aren’t you listening? We’ve already told you that you can’t have that. It would undermine the whole point of membership.

    (rinse & repeat)
    No. It isn’t at all. The UK is proposing a sensible balance of costs/commitments/obligations in certain areas (goods) and detachment in others (services) on a quid pro quo basis. The EU is pushing for ideological fundamentalism on an all or nothing approach, and is shamelessly using NI (a very delicate political situation) as a lever to do this.

    I think it’s disgusting and I’m surprised you don’t too.

    How depressing it is to see you supporting the aggressive provocations of a foreign power rather than your own country.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 47,787
    Mortimer said:

    Mortimer said:

    welshowl said:


    What a horror vision of continental hegemony.

    L’etat c’est moi would fit Barnier to a T.
    The vision of the EU doesn’t fit with a common law jursidiction. This is the fundamental contradiction that led to Brexit.
    If there's an inherent contradiction with the UK, it's not common law per se, but the fact that we are ourselves a union of nations without a written constitution.
    Written constitutions are for those without imagination or an interest in history.

    GB has survived for over 300 years, and with a Union of Crowns for over 100 years more.

    Come back with your Eurobabble when it has survived longer than that.
    "GB has survived" - that's an interesting choice of words. I presume on that basis the Northern Ireland backstop will be no sacrifice at all in order to achieve Brexit?
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 55,015

    Mortimer said:

    Mortimer said:

    welshowl said:


    What a horror vision of continental hegemony.

    L’etat c’est moi would fit Barnier to a T.
    The vision of the EU doesn’t fit with a common law jursidiction. This is the fundamental contradiction that led to Brexit.
    If there's an inherent contradiction with the UK, it's not common law per se, but the fact that we are ourselves a union of nations without a written constitution.
    Written constitutions are for those without imagination or an interest in history.

    GB has survived for over 300 years, and with a Union of Crowns for over 100 years more.

    Come back with your Eurobabble when it has survived longer than that.
    "GB has survived" - that's an interesting choice of words. I presume on that basis the Northern Ireland backstop will be no sacrifice at all in order to achieve Brexit?
    It’s perfectly obvious that NI needs a special status with both the EU and UK that both the EU and UK can recognise.
  • logical_songlogical_song Posts: 9,669
    notme said:

    RobD said:

    Anorak said:

    RobD said:

    surby said:



    Sorry, we must get a vote to get us out of this horrible mess !!!!

    And if the vote doesn't go your way again, another vote?
    Good point. We also don't need any more elections, ever. We've already decided, no point changing our minds. That would be undemocratic.
    I thought the polls were unchanged on this topic? In any case, ~thirty years is the baseline for time between EU referendums.
    http://uk.businessinsider.com/britain-bregret-theresa-may-soft-brexit-2018-5
    Hilarious Desperation. The poll doesnt show what the headline hopes it claims. I'll quote:
    "The 1% difference is within the margin of error."
    Right 43% wrong 44%

    They even more absurdly show a graph on how opinion polling has shifted since the referendum. The chart shows 'May' but it has a gap and it looks like theyve excluded the may results because they dont actually help their argument
    http://static4.uk.businessinsider.com/image/5b0ecba47708e9644f558158-1200/opinion poll brexit right or wrong.jpg

    It calls itself Business Insider, it wasnt even worth turning the ad blocker for. If someone here tried to make those kind of claims they would get rightly torn apart. Absolutely utterly pathetic.
    Nit picking.
    Do you not accept that the trend is for more people to regret Brexit as time passes?
    OK, there will always be margins of error in all polls, but don't forget that that works both ways.
    https://yougov.co.uk/news/2018/06/23/eu-referendum-two-years/
  • Stark_DawningStark_Dawning Posts: 9,232
    surby said:

    They can't even call Uber. Boris could do with a walk to the station.
    SeanT was telling us that a public footpaths runs right alongside Chequers ('Because this is England...'). Handy!
  • AlistairAlistair Posts: 23,670
    Mortimer said:

    Mortimer said:

    welshowl said:


    What a horror vision of continental hegemony.

    L’etat c’est moi would fit Barnier to a T.
    The vision of the EU doesn’t fit with a common law jursidiction. This is the fundamental contradiction that led to Brexit.
    If there's an inherent contradiction with the UK, it's not common law per se, but the fact that we are ourselves a union of nations without a written constitution.
    Written constitutions are for those without imagination or an interest in history.

    GB has survived for over 300 years, and with a Union of Crowns for over 100 years more.

    Come back with your Eurobabble when it has survived longer than that.
    Yes, if you want to ignore the whole thing with Ireland then it has.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 47,787

    Mortimer said:

    Mortimer said:

    welshowl said:


    What a horror vision of continental hegemony.

    L’etat c’est moi would fit Barnier to a T.
    The vision of the EU doesn’t fit with a common law jursidiction. This is the fundamental contradiction that led to Brexit.
    If there's an inherent contradiction with the UK, it's not common law per se, but the fact that we are ourselves a union of nations without a written constitution.
    Written constitutions are for those without imagination or an interest in history.

    GB has survived for over 300 years, and with a Union of Crowns for over 100 years more.

    Come back with your Eurobabble when it has survived longer than that.
    "GB has survived" - that's an interesting choice of words. I presume on that basis the Northern Ireland backstop will be no sacrifice at all in order to achieve Brexit?
    It’s perfectly obvious that NI needs a special status with both the EU and UK that both the EU and UK can recognise.
    With a customs border where?
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 55,015
    RoyalBlue said:

    We don’t want to create a border within the U.K.?

    Piss off Barnier.
    It’s very revealing.

    It’s evidence that NI is only being used (shamelessly and recklessly) to force the UK into a softer Brexit.
  • OblitusSumMeOblitusSumMe Posts: 9,143
    CD13 said:

    Mr SumMe,

    "For an economy to function efficiently Labour needs to be free to move to where it is needed."

    That would certainly suggest that completely open borders should apply. For maximum economic gain, then it should be world-wide, surely? You don't think that might produce an element of strain if 600 billion Chinese wanted to move to California?

    If economic efficiency were your only guiding principle, then yes, with the added benefit that you also increase everyone's individual liberty.

    You could argue that it would make sense to work towards such a goal in stages, rather than in one giant leap. Perhaps you could club together with neighbouring countries first, and then once that has settled down you could add more countries over time.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 49,958
    No deal it is then.

    And an EU Emergency Budget......
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 75,842
    Barnier - "The British have a nice car, I am sure they would not want it to be scratched."
  • MikeSmithsonMikeSmithson Posts: 7,382

    RoyalBlue said:

    We don’t want to create a border within the U.K.?

    Piss off Barnier.
    It’s very revealing.

    It’s evidence that NI is only being used (shamelessly and recklessly) to force the UK into a softer Brexit.
    You are barmy.
  • GIN1138GIN1138 Posts: 20,695
    Afternoon PB,

    Any body bags gone into Chequers yet? :D
  • MikeSmithsonMikeSmithson Posts: 7,382

    RoyalBlue said:

    We don’t want to create a border within the U.K.?

    Piss off Barnier.
    It’s very revealing.

    It’s evidence that NI is only being used (shamelessly and recklessly) to force the UK into a softer Brexit.
    Except the quote is being reported differently elsewhere.
  • I wonder what HMQ thinks of all this
  • OblitusSumMeOblitusSumMe Posts: 9,143

    surby said:

    They can't even call Uber. Boris could do with a walk to the station.
    SeanT was telling us that a public footpaths runs right alongside Chequers ('Because this is England...'). Handy!
    Yes. I don't know how many public footpaths would take you into contact with the MOD plod, but this is an opportunity to see armed police outside of airports, should you so wish.
  • PolruanPolruan Posts: 2,083
    Pulpstar said:

    Barnier - "The British have a nice car, I am sure they would not want it to be scratched."

    More “the British have a nice car, how do they think that angle-grinder’s going to make it look better?”
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 55,015

    RoyalBlue said:

    We don’t want to create a border within the U.K.?

    Piss off Barnier.
    It’s very revealing.

    It’s evidence that NI is only being used (shamelessly and recklessly) to force the UK into a softer Brexit.
    You are barmy.
    No. That’s exactly what’s going on.

    Your twitter feed is embarrassing.
  • surbysurby Posts: 1,227
    For a nation of shopkeepers [ allegedly spoken by another Frenchman ] this is difficult to understand. Brits think it is all about trade. So cannot comprehend that others may think differently.
  • OblitusSumMeOblitusSumMe Posts: 9,143
    Polruan said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Barnier - "The British have a nice car, I am sure they would not want it to be scratched."

    More “the British have a nice car, how do they think that angle-grinder’s going to make it look better?”
    There's a dent in the car.
  • notmenotme Posts: 3,293

    notme said:

    RobD said:

    Anorak said:

    RobD said:

    surby said:



    Sorry, we must get a vote to get us out of this horrible mess !!!!

    And if the vote doesn't go your way again, another vote?
    Good point. We also don't need any more elections, ever. We've already decided, no point changing our minds. That would be undemocratic.
    I thought the polls were unchanged on this topic? In any case, ~thirty years is the baseline for time between EU referendums.
    http://uk.businessinsider.com/britain-bregret-theresa-may-soft-brexit-2018-5
    Hilarious Desperation. The poll doesnt show what the headline hopes it claims. I'll quote:
    "The 1% difference is within the margin of error."
    Right 43% wrong 44%

    They even more absurdly show a graph on how opinion polling has shifted since the referendum. The chart shows 'May' but it has a gap and it looks like theyve excluded the may results because they dont actually help their argument
    http://static4.uk.businessinsider.com/image/5b0ecba47708e9644f558158-1200/opinion poll brexit right or wrong.jpg

    It calls itself Business Insider, it wasnt even worth turning the ad blocker for. If someone here tried to make those kind of claims they would get rightly torn apart. Absolutely utterly pathetic.
    Nit picking.
    Do you not accept that the trend is for more people to regret Brexit as time passes?
    OK, there will always be margins of error in all polls, but don't forget that that works both ways.
    https://yougov.co.uk/news/2018/06/23/eu-referendum-two-years/
    Not on that image is doesnt. It shows less people are regretting it now since august 2017. It shows little more than those who voted for it largely support it an those who voted against largely dont, with a lot of people in both sides who have now lost interest and wondering why we still talking about it.

    It is not nitpicking to point out that their entire article is utter nonsense. Embarrassing. Embarrassing, Embarrassing.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 55,015

    Mortimer said:

    Mortimer said:

    welshowl said:


    What a horror vision of continental hegemony.

    L’etat c’est moi would fit Barnier to a T.
    The vision of the EU doesn’t fit with a common law jursidiction. This is the fundamental contradiction that led to Brexit.
    If there's an inherent contradiction with the UK, it's not common law per se, but the fact that we are ourselves a union of nations without a written constitution.
    Written constitutions are for those without imagination or an interest in history.

    GB has survived for over 300 years, and with a Union of Crowns for over 100 years more.

    Come back with your Eurobabble when it has survived longer than that.
    "GB has survived" - that's an interesting choice of words. I presume on that basis the Northern Ireland backstop will be no sacrifice at all in order to achieve Brexit?
    It’s perfectly obvious that NI needs a special status with both the EU and UK that both the EU and UK can recognise.
    With a customs border where?
    I think both the UK and EU need to travel on that one.

    NI already has a special status in so many ways.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 76,274
    edited July 2018
    Quite interesting piece on the fact that France could be fielding 2 squads at the WC...and Paris alone could basically have one.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P55XYp2KD2Y
  • surbysurby Posts: 1,227

    RoyalBlue said:

    We don’t want to create a border within the U.K.?

    Piss off Barnier.
    It’s very revealing.

    It’s evidence that NI is only being used (shamelessly and recklessly) to force the UK into a softer Brexit.
    If you don't like the Customs Union, just ditch Northern Ireland. More than half of NI population will support it anyway.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 49,958
    surby said:

    RoyalBlue said:

    We don’t want to create a border within the U.K.?

    Piss off Barnier.
    It’s very revealing.

    It’s evidence that NI is only being used (shamelessly and recklessly) to force the UK into a softer Brexit.
    If you don't like the Customs Union, just ditch Northern Ireland. More than half of NI population will support it anyway.
    More than half???
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 47,787
    Polruan said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Barnier - "The British have a nice car, I am sure they would not want it to be scratched."

    More “the British have a nice car, how do they think that angle-grinder’s going to make it look better?”
    "The British have a nice car with four wheels, but are demanding a three-wheeler. This model has been discontinued and is not available, but we can offer a motorbike, or they can keep the car."
This discussion has been closed.