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politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » Three times as many people are less confident now about Brexit

SystemSystem Posts: 6,389
edited July 6 in General

imagepoliticalbetting.com » Blog Archive » Three times as many people are less confident now about Brexit compared with when Britain voted to leave

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  • FF43FF43 Posts: 7,137
    edited July 6
    Nous sommes tous foutus. Et je suis le premier.

  • SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 6,589
    It's coming home, it's coming home
    It's coming...
    Sovereignty's coming home!

    Perhaps.
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 30,148
    '14% (net) are less confident' doesn't have quite the same ring to it, does it?

    Surely the bigger picture is the 61% 'no difference' - people aren't changing their minds how ever much some might wish it to be so.....
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 21,552
    edited July 6
    FPT
    notme said:

    Since he's mum was from there and he has substantial business dealings there, I'm sure he can. Odd that Scotland arent claiming him to be a son...



    His dad was born in New York...
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 2,417
    Any Remain/Leave breakdowns on that poll?
  • FF43FF43 Posts: 7,137
    We have managed to put ourselves into a situation where all our choices are bad. That includes staying in the European Union. Although membership has BY FAR the best practical outcomes, it is the only option that has been explicitly rejected. We can't pretend the vote didn't happen. The Brexit chaos stems entirely from that contradiction.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 44,886
    edited July 6
    Key partisan divide remains, 61% of Tories and 76% of UKIP voters have always had confidence Brexit would be good for Britain or are more confident, 71% of Labour voters, 87% of SNP voters and 90% of LD voters always thought Brexit would be bad for Britain or have become less confident about Brexit
  • AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 21,013

    '14% (net) are less confident' doesn't have quite the same ring to it, does it?

    Surely the bigger picture is the 61% 'no difference' - people aren't changing their minds how ever much some might wish it to be so.....

    54% claimed they always thought it would be bad or are now less confident vs 35% claiming they always thought it would be good or are now more confident. That isn’t close.
  • SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 6,589
    What is meant by "Confident"? Confident that it will happen or confident that it will be good for the country or good for oneself?

    Or confident that it will bring down the government/PM? Oh, it already did.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 21,552
    FF43 said:

    We have managed to put ourselves into a situation where all our choices are bad. That includes staying in the European Union. Although membership has BY FAR the best practical outcomes, it is the only option that has been explicitly rejected. We can't pretend the vote didn't happen. The Brexit chaos stems entirely from that contradiction.

    Ivan Krastev says that the problem with referendums is that they can't negotiate with each other. We have a conflict between the Brexit referendum and the Good Friday Agreement referendum, and perhaps that's a good reason to return the final say back to the people once the implications of Brexit are clear enough.
  • BarnesianBarnesian Posts: 3,257
    FF43 said:

    Nous sommes tous foutus. Et je suis le premier.

    Aench
    FF43 said:

    Nous sommes tous foutus. Et je suis le premier.

    A French view in the comments:

    "God in his immense wisdom had installed the English on an island so that they could give free rein to their fantasy, ride on the wrong side of the road, despise the gastronomy, cling to a system of weight and abstract measures, venerate queens to dogs-dogs and ridiculous hats. And patatras we decided to bring them into the European club. Quickly flood the Channel Tunnel."
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 29,807
    Any sign of an Uber arriving outside chequers?
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 29,807
    Barnesian said:

    FF43 said:

    Nous sommes tous foutus. Et je suis le premier.

    Aench
    FF43 said:

    Nous sommes tous foutus. Et je suis le premier.

    A French view in the comments:

    "God in his immense wisdom had installed the English on an island so that they could give free rein to their fantasy, ride on the wrong side of the road, despise the gastronomy, cling to a system of weight and abstract measures, venerate queens to dogs-dogs and ridiculous hats. And patatras we decided to bring them into the European club. Quickly flood the Channel Tunnel."
    National front voter?
  • FF43FF43 Posts: 7,137

    FF43 said:

    We have managed to put ourselves into a situation where all our choices are bad. That includes staying in the European Union. Although membership has BY FAR the best practical outcomes, it is the only option that has been explicitly rejected. We can't pretend the vote didn't happen. The Brexit chaos stems entirely from that contradiction.

    Ivan Krastev says that the problem with referendums is that they can't negotiate with each other. We have a conflict between the Brexit referendum and the Good Friday Agreement referendum, and perhaps that's a good reason to return the final say back to the people once the implications of Brexit are clear enough.
    I don't think people realise just how bad the Fuck Business option, the Vassal State option and the No Deal We're all Fucked option are. These are the only alternatives to cancelling the whole thing. The denial about what our choices really are is feeding into the instability.
  • notmenotme Posts: 2,707
    FF43 said:

    FF43 said:

    We have managed to put ourselves into a situation where all our choices are bad. That includes staying in the European Union. Although membership has BY FAR the best practical outcomes, it is the only option that has been explicitly rejected. We can't pretend the vote didn't happen. The Brexit chaos stems entirely from that contradiction.

    Ivan Krastev says that the problem with referendums is that they can't negotiate with each other. We have a conflict between the Brexit referendum and the Good Friday Agreement referendum, and perhaps that's a good reason to return the final say back to the people once the implications of Brexit are clear enough.
    I don't think people realise just how bad the Fuck Business option, the Vassal State option and the No Deal We're all Fucked option are. These are the only alternatives to cancelling the whole thing. The denial about what our choices really are is feeding into the instability.
    whats wrong with the canada option? With a transition period? It's all we really wanted anyway. A recreation of the Common Market. The rest of it just kind of got out of control. We will be happy with buying and selling each others widgets with little fuss and a no visa arrangement for travel and simple work permit and residency permits for those that want them and qualify.
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 8,813
    Boris really should go for fuck business.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 21,552
    notme said:

    FF43 said:

    FF43 said:

    We have managed to put ourselves into a situation where all our choices are bad. That includes staying in the European Union. Although membership has BY FAR the best practical outcomes, it is the only option that has been explicitly rejected. We can't pretend the vote didn't happen. The Brexit chaos stems entirely from that contradiction.

    Ivan Krastev says that the problem with referendums is that they can't negotiate with each other. We have a conflict between the Brexit referendum and the Good Friday Agreement referendum, and perhaps that's a good reason to return the final say back to the people once the implications of Brexit are clear enough.
    I don't think people realise just how bad the Fuck Business option, the Vassal State option and the No Deal We're all Fucked option are. These are the only alternatives to cancelling the whole thing. The denial about what our choices really are is feeding into the instability.
    whats wrong with the canada option? With a transition period? It's all we really wanted anyway. A recreation of the Common Market. The rest of it just kind of got out of control. We will be happy with buying and selling each others widgets with little fuss and a no visa arrangement for travel and simple work permit and residency permits for those that want them and qualify.
    The Canada option isn't remotely like a recreation of the Common Market which was always based on free movement of goods, capital, services and people.
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 14,543

    '14% (net) are less confident' doesn't have quite the same ring to it, does it?

    LOL!

    Lies, damned lies and statistics.
  • GIN1138GIN1138 Posts: 11,631
    Jonathan said:

    Boris really should go for fuck business.

    I'm sure Jezza shares the sentiment...
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 29,807
    Side show bob already fouling.
  • FF43FF43 Posts: 7,137
    edited July 6
    notme said:

    FF43 said:

    FF43 said:

    We have managed to put ourselves into a situation where all our choices are bad. That includes staying in the European Union. Although membership has BY FAR the best practical outcomes, it is the only option that has been explicitly rejected. We can't pretend the vote didn't happen. The Brexit chaos stems entirely from that contradiction.

    Ivan Krastev says that the problem with referendums is that they can't negotiate with each other. We have a conflict between the Brexit referendum and the Good Friday Agreement referendum, and perhaps that's a good reason to return the final say back to the people once the implications of Brexit are clear enough.
    I don't think people realise just how bad the Fuck Business option, the Vassal State option and the No Deal We're all Fucked option are. These are the only alternatives to cancelling the whole thing. The denial about what our choices really are is feeding into the instability.
    whats wrong with the canada option? With a transition period? It's all we really wanted anyway. A recreation of the Common Market. The rest of it just kind of got out of control. We will be happy with buying and selling each others widgets with little fuss and a no visa arrangement for travel and simple work permit and residency permits for those that want them and qualify.
    Canada "fucks business", hence Johnson's comment. Businesses that rely on supply chains or regulatory compliance will no longer base themselves in the UK. This includes Airbus, almost all automotive manufacturing, pharmaceuticals, industrial chemicals, much agriculture and a large part of financial services. Our main industries and more. We're talking millions of jobs at risk. Canada isn't a common market - that's Norway. Canada is the ability to sell widgets without tariffs.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 29,807
    Brazil playing at a much higher intensity to all their previous games.
  • ralphmalphralphmalph Posts: 591
    FF43 said:

    notme said:

    FF43 said:

    FF43 said:

    We have managed to put ourselves into a situation where all our choices are bad. That includes staying in the European Union. Although membership has BY FAR the best practical outcomes, it is the only option that has been explicitly rejected. We can't pretend the vote didn't happen. The Brexit chaos stems entirely from that contradiction.

    Ivan Krastev says that the problem with referendums is that they can't negotiate with each other. We have a conflict between the Brexit referendum and the Good Friday Agreement referendum, and perhaps that's a good reason to return the final say back to the people once the implications of Brexit are clear enough.
    I don't think people realise just how bad the Fuck Business option, the Vassal State option and the No Deal We're all Fucked option are. These are the only alternatives to cancelling the whole thing. The denial about what our choices really are is feeding into the instability.
    whats wrong with the canada option? With a transition period? It's all we really wanted anyway. A recreation of the Common Market. The rest of it just kind of got out of control. We will be happy with buying and selling each others widgets with little fuss and a no visa arrangement for travel and simple work permit and residency permits for those that want them and qualify.
    Canada "fucks business", hence Johnson's comment. Businesses that rely on supply chains or regulatory compliance will no longer base themselves in the UK. This includes Airbus, almost all automotive manufacturing, pharmaceuticals, industrial chemicals, much agriculture and a large part of financial services. Our main industries and more. We're taking millions of jobs at risk. Canada isn't a common market - that's Norway. Canada is the ability to sell widgets without tariffs.
    Do you know what model is Hondas top selling car in the EU and where it is made?
  • AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 23,000
    Yet another own goal. Belgium 1, Brazil 0.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 44,886
    Belgium 1 Brazil 0
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 29,807
    edited July 6
    Gooooooooooooooooooooooalllllll,.....Belgium....we have a game here.
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 16,047
    Belgium score
  • FF43FF43 Posts: 7,137

    FF43 said:

    notme said:

    FF43 said:

    FF43 said:

    We have managed to put ourselves into a situation where all our choices are bad. That includes staying in the European Union. Although membership has BY FAR the best practical outcomes, it is the only option that has been explicitly rejected. We can't pretend the vote didn't happen. The Brexit chaos stems entirely from that contradiction.

    Ivan Krastev says that the problem with referendums is that they can't negotiate with each other. We have a conflict between the Brexit referendum and the Good Friday Agreement referendum, and perhaps that's a good reason to return the final say back to the people once the implications of Brexit are clear enough.
    I don't think people realise just how bad the Fuck Business option, the Vassal State option and the No Deal We're all Fucked option are. These are the only alternatives to cancelling the whole thing. The denial about what our choices really are is feeding into the instability.
    whats wrong with the canada option? With a transition period? It's all we really wanted anyway. A recreation of the Common Market. The rest of it just kind of got out of control. We will be happy with buying and selling each others widgets with little fuss and a no visa arrangement for travel and simple work permit and residency permits for those that want them and qualify.
    Canada "fucks business", hence Johnson's comment. Businesses that rely on supply chains or regulatory compliance will no longer base themselves in the UK. This includes Airbus, almost all automotive manufacturing, pharmaceuticals, industrial chemicals, much agriculture and a large part of financial services. Our main industries and more. We're taking millions of jobs at risk. Canada isn't a common market - that's Norway. Canada is the ability to sell widgets without tariffs.
    Do you know what model is Hondas top selling car in the EU and where it is made?
    And the relevance of that to my comment is?
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 29,807
    I feel this game could be a classic.
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 16,047
    This is some game
  • notmenotme Posts: 2,707

    notme said:

    FF43 said:

    FF43 said:

    We have managed to put ourselves into a situation where all our choices are bad. That includes staying in the European Union. Although membership has BY FAR the best practical outcomes, it is the only option that has been explicitly rejected. We can't pretend the vote didn't happen. The Brexit chaos stems entirely from that contradiction.

    Ivan Krastev says that the problem with referendums is that they can't negotiate with each other. We have a conflict between the Brexit referendum and the Good Friday Agreement referendum, and perhaps that's a good reason to return the final say back to the people once the implications of Brexit are clear enough.
    I don't think people realise just how bad the Fuck Business option, the Vassal State option and the No Deal We're all Fucked option are. These are the only alternatives to cancelling the whole thing. The denial about what our choices really are is feeding into the instability.
    whats wrong with the canada option? With a transition period? It's all we really wanted anyway. A recreation of the Common Market. The rest of it just kind of got out of control. We will be happy with buying and selling each others widgets with little fuss and a no visa arrangement for travel and simple work permit and residency permits for those that want them and qualify.
    The Canada option isn't remotely like a recreation of the Common Market which was always based on free movement of goods, capital, services and people.
    There was little to no services in the 1970s and Free Movement of people was a fiction. It was a work permit system which involved having to prove you could support yourself, it certainly did not include unemployed people.
  • AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 23,000
    Latest odds:

    Brazil 3.35
    Belgium 2.3
    Draw 3.7

    https://www.betfair.com/exchange/plus/football/market/1.145175124
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 44,886
    edited July 6
    FF43 said:

    notme said:

    FF43 said:

    FF43 said:

    We have managed to put ourselves into a situation where all our choices are bad. That includes staying in the European Union. Although membership has BY FAR the best practical outcomes, it is the only option that has been explicitly rejected. We can't pretend the vote didn't happen. The Brexit chaos stems entirely from that contradiction.

    Ivan Krastev says that the problem with referendums is that they can't negotiate with each other. We have a conflict between the Brexit referendum and the Good Friday Agreement referendum, and perhaps that's a good reason to return the final say back to the people once the implications of Brexit are clear enough.
    I don't think people realise just how bad the Fuck Business option, the Vassal State option and the No Deal We're all Fucked option are. These are the only alternatives to cancelling the whole thing. The denial about what our choices really are is feeding into the instability.
    whats wrong with the canada option? With a transition period? It's all we really wanted anyway. A recreation of the Common Market. The rest of it just kind of got out of control. We will be happy with buying and selling each others widgets with little fuss and a no visa arrangement for travel and simple work permit and residency permits for those that want them and qualify.
    Canada "fucks business", hence Johnson's comment. Businesses that rely on supply chains or regulatory compliance will no longer base themselves in the UK. This includes Airbus, almost all automotive manufacturing, pharmaceuticals, industrial chemicals, much agriculture and a large part of financial services. Our main industries and more. We're talking millions of jobs at risk. Canada isn't a common market - that's Norway. Canada is the ability to sell widgets without tariffs.
    A Canada deal is the only way to respect the Leave vote and most of the promises the Leave campaign made ie end free movement and control our borders, conduct our own trade deals, reclaim money from the EU and end ECJ jurisdiction over the UK and get a FTA.

    A Norway deal technically leaves the EU but in effect fills almost none of the Leave campaign's promises and requires free movement and ECJ jurisdiction and add in a Customs Union too and we cannot do our own trade deals either, WTO terms on the other hand fully respects the Leave vote but means no free trade deal and tariffs on trade with the EU and significant economic damage potentially albeit with no regulatory alignment and no payments to the EU
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 21,552
    notme said:

    notme said:

    FF43 said:

    FF43 said:

    We have managed to put ourselves into a situation where all our choices are bad. That includes staying in the European Union. Although membership has BY FAR the best practical outcomes, it is the only option that has been explicitly rejected. We can't pretend the vote didn't happen. The Brexit chaos stems entirely from that contradiction.

    Ivan Krastev says that the problem with referendums is that they can't negotiate with each other. We have a conflict between the Brexit referendum and the Good Friday Agreement referendum, and perhaps that's a good reason to return the final say back to the people once the implications of Brexit are clear enough.
    I don't think people realise just how bad the Fuck Business option, the Vassal State option and the No Deal We're all Fucked option are. These are the only alternatives to cancelling the whole thing. The denial about what our choices really are is feeding into the instability.
    whats wrong with the canada option? With a transition period? It's all we really wanted anyway. A recreation of the Common Market. The rest of it just kind of got out of control. We will be happy with buying and selling each others widgets with little fuss and a no visa arrangement for travel and simple work permit and residency permits for those that want them and qualify.
    The Canada option isn't remotely like a recreation of the Common Market which was always based on free movement of goods, capital, services and people.
    There was little to no services in the 1970s and Free Movement of people was a fiction. It was a work permit system which involved having to prove you could support yourself, it certainly did not include unemployed people.
    The political character of the community was no fiction. That's precisely why it was able to develop.

    Without quibbling over the details, what you've just written explains why going back to the 70s simply isn't an adequate model for the UK now.
  • rpjsrpjs Posts: 999
    notme said:

    FF43 said:

    FF43 said:

    We have managed to put ourselves into a situation where all our choices are bad. That includes staying in the European Union. Although membership has BY FAR the best practical outcomes, it is the only option that has been explicitly rejected. We can't pretend the vote didn't happen. The Brexit chaos stems entirely from that contradiction.

    Ivan Krastev says that the problem with referendums is that they can't negotiate with each other. We have a conflict between the Brexit referendum and the Good Friday Agreement referendum, and perhaps that's a good reason to return the final say back to the people once the implications of Brexit are clear enough.
    I don't think people realise just how bad the Fuck Business option, the Vassal State option and the No Deal We're all Fucked option are. These are the only alternatives to cancelling the whole thing. The denial about what our choices really are is feeding into the instability.
    whats wrong with the canada option? With a transition period? It's all we really wanted anyway. A recreation of the Common Market. The rest of it just kind of got out of control. We will be happy with buying and selling each others widgets with little fuss and a no visa arrangement for travel and simple work permit and residency permits for those that want them and qualify.
    On it's own it doesn't solve the problem of the Irish border. Which the UK has already agreed to make frictionless. The only way that can happen is if NI, or the UK as a whole, stays in the SM and CU.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 29,807
    I don’t think the dodgy Brazilian defence can cope with the power of lakuku.
  • rpjsrpjs Posts: 999
    HYUFD said:

    FF43 said:

    notme said:

    FF43 said:

    FF43 said:

    We have managed to put ourselves into a situation where all our choices are bad. That includes staying in the European Union. Although membership has BY FAR the best practical outcomes, it is the only option that has been explicitly rejected. We can't pretend the vote didn't happen. The Brexit chaos stems entirely from that contradiction.

    Ivan Krastev says that the problem with referendums is that they can't negotiate with each other. We have a conflict between the Brexit referendum and the Good Friday Agreement referendum, and perhaps that's a good reason to return the final say back to the people once the implications of Brexit are clear enough.
    I don't think people realise just how bad the Fuck Business option, the Vassal State option and the No Deal We're all Fucked option are. These are the only alternatives to cancelling the whole thing. The denial about what our choices really are is feeding into the instability.
    whats wrong with the canada option? With a transition period? It's all we really wanted anyway. A recreation of the Common Market. The rest of it just kind of got out of control. We will be happy with buying and selling each others widgets with little fuss and a no visa arrangement for travel and simple work permit and residency permits for those that want them and qualify.
    Canada "fucks business", hence Johnson's comment. Businesses that rely on supply chains or regulatory compliance will no longer base themselves in the UK. This includes Airbus, almost all automotive manufacturing, pharmaceuticals, industrial chemicals, much agriculture and a large part of financial services. Our main industries and more. We're talking millions of jobs at risk. Canada isn't a common market - that's Norway. Canada is the ability to sell widgets without tariffs.
    A Canada deal is the only way to respect the Leave vote and most of the promises the Leave campaign made ie end free movement and control our borders, conduct our own trade deals, reclaim money from the EU and end ECJ jurisdiction over the UK and get a FTA.

    A Norway deal technically leaves the EU but in effect fills almost none of the Leave campaign's promises and requires free movement and ECJ jurisdiction and add in a Customs Union too and we cannot do our own trade deals either, WTO terms on the other hand fully respects the Leave vote but means no free trade deal and tariffs on trade with the EU and significant economic damage potentially albeit with no regulatory alignment and no payments to the EU
    None of that was on the ballot paper. Only leaving the EU was. No-one voted for economic catastrophe.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 44,886
    rpjs said:

    HYUFD said:

    FF43 said:

    notme said:

    FF43 said:

    FF43 said:

    We have managed to put ourselves into a situation where all our choices are bad. That includes staying in the European Union. Although membership has BY FAR the best practical outcomes, it is the only option that has been explicitly rejected. We can't pretend the vote didn't happen. The Brexit chaos stems entirely from that contradiction.

    Ivan Krastev says that the problem with referendums is that they can't negotiate with each other. We have a conflict between the Brexit referendum and the Good Friday Agreement referendum, and perhaps that's a good reason to return the final say back to the people once the implications of Brexit are clear enough.
    I don't think people realise just how bad the Fuck Business option, the Vassal State option and the No Deal We're all Fucked option are. These are the only alternatives to cancelling the whole thing. The denial about what our choices really are is feeding into the instability.
    whats wrong with the canada option? With a transition period? It's all we really wanted anyway. A recreation of the Common Market. The rest of it just kind of got out of control. We will be happy with buying and selling each others widgets with little fuss and a no visa arrangement for travel and simple work permit and residency permits for those that want them and qualify.
    Canada "fucks business", hence Johnson's comment. Businesses nd more. We're talking millions of jobs at risk. Canada isn't a common market - that's Norway. Canada is the ability to sell widgets without tariffs.
    A Canada deal is the only way to respect the Leave vote and most of the promises the Leave campaign made ie end free movement and control our borders, conduct our own trade deals, reclaim money from the EU and end ECJ jurisdiction over the UK and get a FTA.

    A Norway deal technically leaves the EU but in effect fills almost none of the Leave campaign's promises and requires free movement and ECJ jurisdiction and add in a Customs Union too and we cannot do our own trade deals either, WTO terms on the other hand fully respects the Leave vote but means no free trade deal and tariffs on trade with the EU and significant economic damage potentially albeit with no regulatory alignment and no payments to the EU
    None of that was on the ballot paper. Only leaving the EU was. No-one voted for economic catastrophe.
    Yes it was on the ballot paper as that was the Vote Leave campaign platform, you may as well say no political party's manifesto was on the ballot paper at a general election
  • notmenotme Posts: 2,707

    notme said:

    notme said:

    FF43 said:

    FF43 said:

    We have managed to put ourselves into a situation where all our choices are bad. That includes staying in the European Union. Although membership has BY FAR the best practical outcomes, it is the only option that has been explicitly rejected. We can't pretend the vote didn't happen. The Brexit chaos stems entirely from that contradiction.

    Ivan Krastev says that the problem with referendums is that they can't negotiate with each other. We have a conflict between the Brexit referendum and the Good Friday Agreement referendum, and perhaps that's a good reason to return the final say back to the people once the implications of Brexit are clear enough.
    I don't think people realise just how bad the Fuck Business option, the Vassal State option and the No Deal We're all Fucked option are. These are the only alternatives to cancelling the whole thing. The denial about what our choices really are is feeding into the instability.
    why.
    The Canada option isn't remotely like a recreation of the Common Market which was always based on free movement of goods, capital, services and people.
    There was little to no services in the 1970s and Free Movement of people was a fiction. It was a work permit system which involved having to prove you could support yourself, it certainly did not include unemployed people.
    The political character of the community was no fiction. That's precisely why it was able to develop.

    Without quibbling over the details, what you've just written explains why going back to the 70s simply isn't an adequate model for the UK now.
    You misunderstand. I wanted to remain in the Single Market, i think it was a massive mistake of May to rule it out at the beginning. The acute problem (problem depends on if you are a giver of a service thats easily replicable or purchaser of it) we have with eastern european migration could be sorted by changing how our welfare state works for everyone. Remove the draw factors. EU couldnt care less how we treat our citizens with tax credits, benefit, minimum wage etc, they just care if we try to treat someone elses citizens differently. We created the draw that meant a head of household could come and collect £12k on min wage, pay no tax, and collect another £10k in child related benefits and tax credits.

    Our doing. But no she took the weak way out.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 44,886
    rpjs said:

    notme said:

    FF43 said:

    FF43 said:

    We have managed to put ourselves into a situation where all our choices are bad. That includes staying in the European Union. Although membership has BY FAR the best practical outcomes, it is the only option that has been explicitly rejected. We can't pretend the vote didn't happen. The Brexit chaos stems entirely from that contradiction.

    Ivan Krastev says that the problem with referendums is that they can't negotiate with each other. We have a conflict between the Brexit referendum and the Good Friday Agreement referendum, and perhaps that's a good reason to return the final say back to the people once the implications of Brexit are clear enough.
    I don't think people realise just how bad the Fuck Business option, the Vassal State option and the No Deal We're all Fucked option are. These are the only alternatives to cancelling the whole thing. The denial about what our choices really are is feeding into the instability.
    whats wrong with the canada option? With a transition period? It's all we really wanted anyway. A recreation of the Common Market. The rest of it just kind of got out of control. We will be happy with buying and selling each others widgets with little fuss and a no visa arrangement for travel and simple work permit and residency permits for those that want them and qualify.
    On it's own it doesn't solve the problem of the Irish border. Which the UK has already agreed to make frictionless. The only way that can happen is if NI, or the UK as a whole, stays in the SM and CU.
    Or alternatively with the UK wide regulatory alignment May and Barnier agreed in December
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 21,552
    rpjs said:

    notme said:

    FF43 said:

    FF43 said:

    We have managed to put ourselves into a situation where all our choices are bad. That includes staying in the European Union. Although membership has BY FAR the best practical outcomes, it is the only option that has been explicitly rejected. We can't pretend the vote didn't happen. The Brexit chaos stems entirely from that contradiction.

    Ivan Krastev says that the problem with referendums is that they can't negotiate with each other. We have a conflict between the Brexit referendum and the Good Friday Agreement referendum, and perhaps that's a good reason to return the final say back to the people once the implications of Brexit are clear enough.
    I don't think people realise just how bad the Fuck Business option, the Vassal State option and the No Deal We're all Fucked option are. These are the only alternatives to cancelling the whole thing. The denial about what our choices really are is feeding into the instability.
    whats wrong with the canada option? With a transition period? It's all we really wanted anyway. A recreation of the Common Market. The rest of it just kind of got out of control. We will be happy with buying and selling each others widgets with little fuss and a no visa arrangement for travel and simple work permit and residency permits for those that want them and qualify.
    On it's own it doesn't solve the problem of the Irish border. Which the UK has already agreed to make frictionless. The only way that can happen is if NI, or the UK as a whole, stays in the SM and CU.
    Yes, so the options should be:

    - Fuck Business and Fuck the Union Brexit
    - Vassal State Brexit
    - No Deal We're all Fucked Brexit
    - For Fuck's Sake Cancel Brexit
  • ralphmalphralphmalph Posts: 591
    edited July 6
    FF43 said:

    FF43 said:

    notme said:

    FF43 said:

    FF43 said:

    We have managed to put ourselves into a situation where all our choices are bad. That includes staying in the European Union. Although membership has BY FAR the best practical outcomes, it is the only option that has been explicitly rejected. We can't pretend the vote didn't happen. The Brexit chaos stems entirely from that contradiction.

    Ivan Krastev says that the problem with referendums is that they can't negotiate with each other. We have a conflict between the Brexit referendum and the Good Friday Agreement referendum, and perhaps that's a good reason to return the final say back to the people once the implications of Brexit are clear enough.
    I don't think people realise just how bad the Fuck Business option, the Vassal State option and the No Deal We're all Fucked option are. These are the only alternatives to cancelling the whole thing. The denial about what our choices really are is feeding into the instability.
    whats wrong with the canada option? With a transition period? It's all we really wanted anyway. A recreation of the Common Market. The rest of it just kind of got out of control. We will be happy with buying and selling each others widgets with little fuss and a no visa arrangement for travel and simple work permit and residency permits for those that want them and qualify.
    Canada "fucks business", hence Johnson's comment. Businesses that rely on supply chains or regulatory compliance will no longer base themselves in the UK. This includes Airbus, almost all automotive manufacturing, pharmaceuticals, industrial chemicals, much agriculture and a large part of financial services. Our main industries and more. We're taking millions of jobs at risk. Canada isn't a common market - that's Norway. Canada is the ability to sell widgets without tariffs.
    Do you know what model is Hondas top selling car in the EU and where it is made?
    And the relevance of that to my comment is?
    You are saying that the automotive industry (well all industry in fact) will leave the UK if we go Canada Free Trade deal. I am testing your understanding of whether you really understand supply chains and regulatory compliance.
    So where is Honda's top selling car made? Or more simply how can other countries in the world ship large volumes of cars into the EU market yet, they are not in the single market or the customs union?
    It is a simple question.
  • notmenotme Posts: 2,707
    FF43 said:

    notme said:

    FF43 said:

    FF43 said:

    We have managed to put ourselves into a situation where all our choices are bad. That includes staying in the European Union. Although membership has BY FAR the best practical outcomes, it is the only option that has been explicitly rejected. We can't pretend the vote didn't happen. The Brexit chaos stems entirely from that contradiction.

    Ivan Krastev says that the problem with referendums is that they can't negotiate with each other. We have a conflict between the Brexit referendum and the Good Friday Agreement referendum, and perhaps that's a good reason to return the final say back to the people once the implications of Brexit are clear enough.
    I don't think people realise just how bad the Fuck Business option, the Vassal State option and the No Deal We're all Fucked option are. These are the only alternatives to cancelling the whole thing. The denial about what our choices really are is feeding into the instability.
    whats wrong with the canada option? With a transition period? It's all we really wanted anyway. A recreation of the Common Market. The rest of it just kind of got out of control. We will be happy with buying and selling each others widgets with little fuss and a no visa arrangement for travel and simple work permit and residency permits for those that want them and qualify.
    Canada "fucks business", hence Johnson's comment. Businesses that rely on supply chains or regulatory compliance will no longer base themselves in the UK. This includes Airbus, almost all automotive manufacturing, pharmaceuticals, industrial chemicals, much agriculture and a large part of financial services. Our main industries and more. We're talking millions of jobs at risk. Canada isn't a common market - that's Norway. Canada is the ability to sell widgets without tariffs.

    The norway option only seems unlikely because May has utterly ruled it out.
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 2,417
    The Martinez strategy "go beat them at football", is as entertaining as ever.
    Fortunately, Belgium are a sight better than Wigan or Everton were.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 4,071

    I don’t think the dodgy Brazilian defence can cope with the power of lakuku.

    Brazilians losing it in the midfield.

    Brussels wins again by good organisation and preparation. Where else have we seen that?
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 30,148
    Barnesian said:

    FF43 said:

    Nous sommes tous foutus. Et je suis le premier.

    Aench
    FF43 said:

    Nous sommes tous foutus. Et je suis le premier.

    Quickly flood the Channel Tunnel."
    And cut off their means of escape?
  • SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 6,589
    Off topic: I just made a quick exit from a train, stood on the platform and realised I was holding someone else's bag! Fortunately I had time to get back on, swap bags and get off again.

    This comes after being stranded at Alexandra Palace earlier due to a trespass incident and having to leg it to the nearest tube station to get to King's Cross...
  • FF43FF43 Posts: 7,137
    HYUFD said:

    FF43 said:

    notme said:

    FF43 said:



    I don't think people realise just how bad the Fuck Business option, the Vassal State option and the No Deal We're all Fucked option are. These are the only alternatives to cancelling the whole thing. The denial about what our choices really are is feeding into the instability.

    whats wrong with the canada option? With a transition period? It's all we really wanted anyway. A recreation of the Common Market. The rest of it just kind of got out of control. We will be happy with buying and selling each others widgets with little fuss and a no visa arrangement for travel and simple work permit and residency permits for those that want them and qualify.
    Canada "fucks business", hence Johnson's comment. Businesses that rely on supply chains or regulatory compliance will no longer base themselves in the UK. This includes Airbus, almost all automotive manufacturing, pharmaceuticals, industrial chemicals, much agriculture and a large part of financial services. Our main industries and more. We're talking millions of jobs at risk. Canada isn't a common market - that's Norway. Canada is the ability to sell widgets without tariffs.
    A Canada deal is the only way to respect the Leave vote and most of the promises the Leave campaign made ie end free movement and control our borders, conduct our own trade deals, reclaim money from the EU and end ECJ jurisdiction over the UK and get a FTA.

    A Norway deal technically leaves the EU but in effect fills almost none of the Leave campaign's promises and requires free movement and ECJ jurisdiction and add in a Customs Union too and we cannot do our own trade deals either, WTO terms on the other hand fully respects the Leave vote but means no free trade deal and tariffs on trade with the EU and significant economic damage potentially albeit with no regulatory alignment and no payments to the EU
    I agree Canada does satisfy a Leave vote at one level, while Norway means outsourcing your economic and trade policy to a third party. That's sort of acceptable to Norway, but is it's unlike to be so for the UK beyond the short term. The problem with Canada is that it "fucks business".and I'm not convinced Leave voters think losing their jobs and standard of living is a price worth paying. They are hardly embracing the reality on this. Hence Theresa May's difficulties.
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 9,120
    dixiedean said:

    The Martinez strategy "go beat them at football", is as entertaining as ever.
    Fortunately, Belgium are a sight better than Wigan or Everton were.

    I think that's a bit harsh. I was sorry to see Wigan go down and Everton were very unlucky to only finish fifth in 2013-14.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 21,151
    Are there going to be lots of drunk Belgians tonight?

    "Tens of thousands of Belgians agreed to do an "AdFundum" (finish their beer in 1 go) every time Neymar falls down during the WorldCup match Brazil-Belgium tonight.
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 16,047
    Yessssss
  • AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 23,000
    Brazil in serious trouble. 2-0.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 44,886
    Belgium 2 Brazil 0. Another big upset on the cards
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 9,120
    If Belgium win the World Cup, I hope KdB gets the Ballon D'or. He's brilliant.
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 30,148
    That didn't take long.....the Khan baby balloon:

    £21,687 raised of £20,000 stretch target


    https://www.crowdfunder.co.uk/giant-sadiq-khan-baby-balloon-to-fly-over-london
  • welshowlwelshowl Posts: 3,670
    Wow
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 21,552
    notme said:

    The acute problem (problem depends on if you are a giver of a service thats easily replicable or purchaser of it) we have with eastern european migration could be sorted by changing how our welfare state works for everyone.

    The rapid stabilisation in the level of A8 migration suggests that this is not a chronic problem, so leaving the single market to 'solve' it is not a good idea.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 29,807
    edited July 6
    Take that......told you they couldn’t cope with lakuku.
  • dr_spyndr_spyn Posts: 9,066
    cracking game - Brazil being opened up time and time again. Good 2nd goal.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 4,071

    That didn't take long.....the Khan baby balloon:

    £21,687 raised of £20,000 stretch target


    https://www.crowdfunder.co.uk/giant-sadiq-khan-baby-balloon-to-fly-over-london

    Lots of rich Russians :)

    Can they actually get it made in time?
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 9,120
    You know why the South Americans have been so tetchy at this tournament? They know they have been left behind.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 29,807
    Well neymar poncy boots ball hogger what you going to do about this....
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 44,886
    FF43 said:

    HYUFD said:

    FF43 said:

    notme said:

    FF43 said:



    I don't think people realise just how bad the Fuck Business option, the Vassal State option and the No Deal We're all Fucked option are. These are the only alternatives to cancelling the whole thing. The denial about what our choices really are is feeding into the instability.

    whats wrong with the canada option? With a transition period? It's all we really wanted anyway. A recreation of the Common Market. The rest of it just kind of got out of control. We will be happy with buying and selling each others widgets with little fuss and a no visa arrangement for travel and simple work permit and residency permits for those that want them and qualify.
    Canada "fucks business", hence Johnson's comment. Businesses that rely on supply chains or regulatory compliance will no longer base themselves in the UK. This includes Airbus, almost all automotive manufacturing, pharmaceuticals, industrial chemicals, much agriculture and a large part of financial services. Our main industries and more. We're talking millions of jobs at risk. Canada isn't a common market - that's Norway. Canada is the ability to sell widgets without tariffs.
    A Canada deal is the only way to respect the Leave vote and most of the promises the Leave campaign made ie end free movement and control our borders, conduct our own trade deals, reclaim money from the EU and end ECJ jurisdiction over the UK and get a FTA.

    A Norway deal technically leaves the EU but in effect fills almost none of the Leave campaign's promises and requires free movement and ECJ jurisdiction and add in a Customs Union too and we cannot do our own trade deals either, WTO terms on the other hand fully respects the Leave vote but means no free trade deal and tariffs on trade with the EU and significant economic damage potentially albeit with no regulatory alignment and no payments to the EU
    I agree Canada does satisfy a Leave vote at one level, while Norway means outsourcing your economic and trade policy to a third party. That's sort of acceptable to Norway, but is it's unlike to be so for the UK beyond the short term. The problem with Canada is that it "fucks business".and I'm not convinced Leave voters think losing their jobs and standard of living is a price worth paying. They are hardly embracing the reality on this. Hence Theresa May's difficulties.
    Leave voters effectively said 'fuck big business' when they ignored business warnings on the economic risks of Brexit and voted Leave anyway to regain sovereignty and reduce immigration.

    Disrespect that and you disrespect democracy, a Canada deal has to at least be tried for a few year's and if we can achieve it it will still 'fuck business' less than WTO terms
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 16,047
    Fellaini to Lukaku to De Bryune - back of the net - great move
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 19,343

    Off topic: I just made a quick exit from a train, stood on the platform and realised I was holding someone else's bag! Fortunately I had time to get back on, swap bags and get off again.

    This comes after being stranded at Alexandra Palace earlier due to a trespass incident and having to leg it to the nearest tube station to get to King's Cross...

    You could be having a worse day. You could be Brazil's manager.....
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 44,886

    notme said:

    The acute problem (problem depends on if you are a giver of a service thats easily replicable or purchaser of it) we have with eastern european migration could be sorted by changing how our welfare state works for everyone.

    The rapid stabilisation in the level of A8 migration suggests that this is not a chronic problem, so leaving the single market to 'solve' it is not a good idea.
    Most other EU and EEA nations at least imposed transition controls on free movement from the A8 nations for 7 years unlike Blair
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 4,071
    tlg86 said:

    You know why the South Americans have been so tetchy at this tournament? They know they have been left behind.

    All European Semi Finals by the look of it.

    Most of Brazil's first team play for European clubs too.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 21,552
    HYUFD said:

    Disrespect that and you disrespect democracy, a Canada deal has to at least be tried for a few year's and if we can achieve it it will still 'fuck business' less than WTO terms

    You keep on saying things like "WTO for a few years" or "Canada for a few years". Have you actually considered how much has to change on the ground to move from one kind of relationship to another? The government can't just flick a switch once they've decided.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 19,343
    edited July 6
    This game still has goals in it.....
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 30,148
    Foxy said:

    That didn't take long.....the Khan baby balloon:

    £21,687 raised of £20,000 stretch target


    https://www.crowdfunder.co.uk/giant-sadiq-khan-baby-balloon-to-fly-over-london

    Lots of rich Russians :)
    Average donation £15.85.......
  • BarnesianBarnesian Posts: 3,257
    HYUFD said:

    FF43 said:

    notme said:

    FF43 said:

    FF43 said:

    We have managed to put ourselves into a situation where all our choices are bad. That includes staying in the European Union. Although membership has BY FAR the best practical outcomes, it is the only option that has been explicitly rejected. We can't pretend the vote didn't happen. The Brexit chaos stems entirely from that contradiction.

    Ivan Krastev says that the problem with referendums is that they can't negotiate with each other. We have a conflict between the Brexit referendum and the Good Friday Agreement referendum, and perhaps that's a good reason to return the final say back to the people once the implications of Brexit are clear enough.
    I don't think people realise just how bad the Fuck Business option, the Vassal State option and the No Deal We're all Fucked option are. These are the only alternatives to cancelling the whole thing. The denial about what our choices really are is feeding into the instability.
    Canada "fucks business", hence Johnson's comment. Businesses that rely on supply chains or regulatory compliance will no longer base themselves in the UK. This includes Airbus, almost all automotive manufacturing, pharmaceuticals, industrial chemicals, much agriculture and a large part of financial services. Our main industries and more. We're talking millions of jobs at risk. Canada isn't a common market - that's Norway. Canada is the ability to sell widgets without tariffs.
    A Canada deal is the only way to respect the Leave vote and most of the promises the Leave campaign made ie end free movement and control our borders, conduct our own trade deals, reclaim money from the EU and end ECJ jurisdiction over the UK and get a FTA.

    A Norway deal technically leaves the EU but in effect fills almost none of the Leave campaign's promises and requires free movement and ECJ jurisdiction and add in a Customs Union too and we cannot do our own trade deals either, WTO terms on the other hand fully respects the Leave vote but means no free trade deal and tariffs on trade with the EU and significant economic damage potentially albeit with no regulatory alignment and no payments to the EU
    You talk about respecting the Leave vote. How about respecting the Remain vote which was almost as great? We need to respect both. A Norway deal plus Customs Union does that.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 21,552
    HYUFD said:

    notme said:

    The acute problem (problem depends on if you are a giver of a service thats easily replicable or purchaser of it) we have with eastern european migration could be sorted by changing how our welfare state works for everyone.

    The rapid stabilisation in the level of A8 migration suggests that this is not a chronic problem, so leaving the single market to 'solve' it is not a good idea.
    Most other EU and EEA nations at least imposed transition controls on free movement from the A8 nations for 7 years unlike Blair
    Indeed, but public concerns about migration go back to the rapid increase in non-EU migration from 1997. EU expansion was just the icing on the cake in terms of numbers.
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 2,417
    tlg86 said:

    dixiedean said:

    The Martinez strategy "go beat them at football", is as entertaining as ever.
    Fortunately, Belgium are a sight better than Wigan or Everton were.

    I think that's a bit harsh. I was sorry to see Wigan go down and Everton were very unlucky to only finish fifth in 2013-14.
    Wasn't meant to be harsh. It is very simple and very attractive football, not overburdened by theory or tactics.
    Is great when you have good players.
    Certainly Everton were a great watch when he was in charge. Well suited to International football, as his signings were terrible.
    However, 2 or even 3 is not a winning lead or a lost cause with him in charge.
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 9,120
    Foxy said:

    tlg86 said:

    You know why the South Americans have been so tetchy at this tournament? They know they have been left behind.

    All European Semi Finals by the look of it.

    Most of Brazil's first team play for European clubs too.
    As it stands, it will be 20 years since a non-European nation made the semi finals of a World Cup in Europe. They might have to wait until 2034 to have another go.
  • AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 23,000

    This game still has goals in it.....

    Betfair punters currently expect 4 goals.
  • BarnesianBarnesian Posts: 3,257

    FF43 said:

    FF43 said:

    notme said:

    FF43 said:

    FF43 said:

    We have managed to put ourselves into a situation where all our choices are bad. That includes staying in the European Union. Although membership has BY FAR the best practical outcomes, it is the only option that has been explicitly rejected. We can't pretend the vote didn't happen. The Brexit chaos stems entirely from that contradiction.

    Ivan Krastev says that the problem with referendums is that they can't negotiate with each other. We have a conflict between the Brexit referendum and the Good Friday Agreement referendum, and perhaps that's a good reason to return the final say back to the people once the implications of Brexit are clear enough.
    I don't think people realise just how bad the Fuck Business option, the Vassal State option and the No Deal We're all Fucked option are. These are the only alternatives to cancelling the whole thing. The denial about what our choices really are is feeding into the instability.
    whats wrong with the canada option? With a transition period? It's all we really wanted anyway. A recreation of the Common Market. The rest of it just kind of got out of control. We will be happy with buying and selling each others widgets with little fuss and a no visa arrangement for travel and simple work permit and residency permits for those that want them and qualify.
    Canada "fucks business", hence Johnson's comment. Businesses that rely on supply chains or regulatory compliance will no longer base themselves in the UK. This includes Airbus, almost all automotive manufacturing, pharmaceuticals, industrial chemicals, much agriculture and a large part of financial services. Our main industries and more. We're taking millions of jobs at risk. Canada isn't a common market - that's Norway. Canada is the ability to sell widgets without tariffs.
    Do you know what model is Hondas top selling car in the EU and where it is made?
    And the relevance of that to my comment is?
    You are saying that the automotive industry (well all industry in fact) will leave the UK if we go Canada Free Trade deal. I am testing your understanding of whether you really understand supply chains and regulatory compliance.
    So where is Honda's top selling car made? Or more simply how can other countries in the world ship large volumes of cars into the EU market yet, they are not in the single market or the customs union?
    It is a simple question.
    How is that relevant?
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 19,343
    If Germany wants to win the World Cup again, they may have to invade Belgium....
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 30,148
    HYUFD said:

    notme said:

    The acute problem (problem depends on if you are a giver of a service thats easily replicable or purchaser of it) we have with eastern european migration could be sorted by changing how our welfare state works for everyone.

    The rapid stabilisation in the level of A8 migration suggests that this is not a chronic problem, so leaving the single market to 'solve' it is not a good idea.
    Most other EU and EEA nations at least imposed transition controls on free movement from the A8 nations for 7 years unlike Blair
    All other things being equal, with the global lingua franca as our mother tongue, we're always going to be disproportionately attractive to immigrants from other EU countries.....
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 21,151

    This game still has goals in it.....

    Do you mean at the Kazan Arena, or at Chequers?
  • TheWhiteRabbitTheWhiteRabbit Posts: 7,728
    Don't look now, England third favourites for the World cup...!
  • rpjsrpjs Posts: 999
    HYUFD said:

    FF43 said:

    HYUFD said:

    FF43 said:



    Canada "fucks business", hence Johnson's comment. Businesses that rely on supply chains or regulatory compliance will no longer base themselves in the UK. This includes Airbus, almost all automotive manufacturing, pharmaceuticals, industrial chemicals, much agriculture and a large part of financial services. Our main industries and more. We're talking millions of jobs at risk. Canada isn't a common market - that's Norway. Canada is the ability to sell widgets without tariffs.

    A Canada deal is the only way to respect the Leave vote and most of the promises the Leave campaign made ie end free movement and control our borders, conduct our own trade deals, reclaim money from the EU and end ECJ jurisdiction over the UK and get a FTA.

    A Norway deal technically leaves the EU but in effect fills almost none of the Leave campaign's promises and requires free movement and ECJ jurisdiction and add in a Customs Union too and we cannot do our own trade deals either, WTO terms on the other hand fully respects the Leave vote but means no free trade deal and tariffs on trade with the EU and significant economic damage potentially albeit with no regulatory alignment and no payments to the EU
    I agree Canada does satisfy a Leave vote at one level, while Norway means outsourcing your economic and trade policy to a third party. That's sort of acceptable to Norway, but is it's unlike to be so for the UK beyond the short term. The problem with Canada is that it "fucks business".and I'm not convinced Leave voters think losing their jobs and standard of living is a price worth paying. They are hardly embracing the reality on this. Hence Theresa May's difficulties.
    Leave voters effectively said 'fuck big business' when they ignored business warnings on the economic risks of Brexit and voted Leave anyway to regain sovereignty and reduce immigration.

    Disrespect that and you disrespect democracy, a Canada deal has to at least be tried for a few year's and if we can achieve it it will still 'fuck business' less than WTO terms
    I do hope you'll respect the democratic decision to vote in a Corbyn/McDonnell government in 2022 or sooner, due to the mass unemployment a CTA Brexit will bring on.

    Democracy involves respecting minority rights too, especially when the majority is tiny. Leavers can vote to destroy their own economic future, but that doesn't mean Remainers have to sit by and accept the destruction of theirs.
  • RobDRobD Posts: 33,605
    RobD said:
    Secretly we are all hoping TSE will publish his magnum opus...
  • TheWhiteRabbitTheWhiteRabbit Posts: 7,728

    Foxy said:

    That didn't take long.....the Khan baby balloon:

    £21,687 raised of £20,000 stretch target


    https://www.crowdfunder.co.uk/giant-sadiq-khan-baby-balloon-to-fly-over-london

    Lots of rich Russians :)
    Average donation £15.85.......
    Stretch target? Geddit...
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 30,148
    rpjs said:

    HYUFD said:

    FF43 said:

    HYUFD said:

    FF43 said:



    Canada "fucks business", hence Johnson's comment. Businesses that rely on supply chains or regulatory compliance will no longer base themselves in the UK. This includes Airbus, almost all automotive manufacturing, pharmaceuticals, industrial chemicals, much agriculture and a large part of financial services. Our main industries and more. We're talking millions of jobs at risk. Canada isn't a common market - that's Norway. Canada is the ability to sell widgets without tariffs.

    A Canada deal is the only way to respect the Leave vote and most of the promises the Leave campaign made ie end free movement and control our borders, conduct our own trade deals, reclaim money from the EU and end ECJ jurisdiction over the UK and get a FTA.

    A Norway deal technically leaves the EU but in effect fills almost none of the Leave campaign's promises and requires free movement and ECJ jurisdiction and add in a Customs Union too and we cannot do our own trade deals either, WTO terms on the other hand fully respects the Leave vote but means no free trade deal and tariffs on trade with the EU and significant economic damage potentially albeit with no regulatory alignment and no payments to the EU
    I agree Canada does satisfy a Leave vote at one level, while Norway means outsourcing your economic and trade policy to a third party. That's sort of acceptable to Norway, but is it's unlike to be so for the UK beyond the short term. The problem with Canada is that it "fucks business".and I'm not convinced Leave voters think losing their jobs and standard of living is a price worth paying. They are hardly embracing the reality on this. Hence Theresa May's difficulties.
    Leave voters effectively said 'fuck big business' when they ignored business warnings on the economic risks of Brexit and voted Leave anyway to regain sovereignty and reduce immigration.

    Disrespect that and you disrespect democracy, a Canada deal has to at least be tried for a few year's and if we can achieve it it will still 'fuck business' less than WTO terms
    I do hope you'll respect the democratic decision to vote in a Corbyn/McDonnell government in 2022 or sooner, due to the mass unemployment a CTA Brexit will bring on.

    Democracy involves respecting minority rights too, especially when the majority is tiny. Leavers Labour voters can vote to destroy their own economic future, but that doesn't mean Remainers Conservative voters have to sit by and accept the destruction of theirs.
    That work for you too?
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 4,071

    Don't look now, England third favourites for the World cup...!

    Brazil were first favourite an hour ago.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 21,552

    HYUFD said:

    notme said:

    The acute problem (problem depends on if you are a giver of a service thats easily replicable or purchaser of it) we have with eastern european migration could be sorted by changing how our welfare state works for everyone.

    The rapid stabilisation in the level of A8 migration suggests that this is not a chronic problem, so leaving the single market to 'solve' it is not a good idea.
    Most other EU and EEA nations at least imposed transition controls on free movement from the A8 nations for 7 years unlike Blair
    All other things being equal, with the global lingua franca as our mother tongue, we're always going to be disproportionately attractive to immigrants from other EU countries.....
    If that were true, why was EU migration to the UK negligible previously? In any case, unless you think the economy has an unlimited capacity to create jobs, then the market will act as a natural regulator. People who move to brush up on their language skills are not the people we supposedly want to 'control'.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 21,938
    I am beginning to regret only having a few quid on Belgium. They were class in that half.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 29,807
    Well....that was some first half....Brazil out thought and outplayed.
  • rpjsrpjs Posts: 999

    rpjs said:

    HYUFD said:

    FF43 said:

    HYUFD said:



    A Canada deal is the only way to respect the Leave vote and most of the promises the Leave campaign made ie end free movement and control our borders, conduct our own trade deals, reclaim money from the EU and end ECJ jurisdiction over the UK and get a FTA.

    A Norway deal technically leaves the EU but in effect fills almost none of the Leave campaign's promises and requires free movement and ECJ jurisdiction and add in a Customs Union too and we cannot do our own trade deals either, WTO terms on the other hand fully respects the Leave vote but means no free trade deal and tariffs on trade with the EU and significant economic damage potentially albeit with no regulatory alignment and no payments to the EU

    I agree Canada does satisfy a Leave vote at one level, while Norway means outsourcing your economic and trade policy to a third party. That's sort of acceptable to Norway, but is it's unlike to be so for the UK beyond the short term. The problem with Canada is that it "fucks business".and I'm not convinced Leave voters think losing their jobs and standard of living is a price worth paying. They are hardly embracing the reality on this. Hence Theresa May's difficulties.
    Leave voters effectively said 'fuck big business' when they ignored business warnings on the economic risks of Brexit and voted Leave anyway to regain sovereignty and reduce immigration.

    Disrespect that and you disrespect democracy, a Canada deal has to at least be tried for a few year's and if we can achieve it it will still 'fuck business' less than WTO terms
    I do hope you'll respect the democratic decision to vote in a Corbyn/McDonnell government in 2022 or sooner, due to the mass unemployment a CTA Brexit will bring on.

    Democracy involves respecting minority rights too, especially when the majority is tiny. Leavers Labour voters can vote to destroy their own economic future, but that doesn't mean Remainers Conservative voters have to sit by and accept the destruction of theirs.
    That work for you too?
    Well Tory voters always have the option of moving all their ill-gotten loot to their offshore tax shelters... ;)

    But I do seem to recall PB Tories always complaining about magic money trees whenever Labour were in power or in the ascendant.
  • JonnyJimmyJonnyJimmy Posts: 2,548
    Would London beating Moscow and Brussels on the way to the World Cup be good or bad for Brexit?
  • TheWhiteRabbitTheWhiteRabbit Posts: 7,728
    DavidL said:

    I am beginning to regret only having a few quid on Belgium. They were class in that half.

    Me too... I guess that's always the way

    I wished I'd put more on my winners and less on my losers!
  • FF43FF43 Posts: 7,137

    FF43 said:

    <

    Do you know what model is Hondas top selling car in the EU and where it is made?

    And the relevance of that to my comment is?
    You are saying that the automotive industry (well all industry in fact) will leave the UK if we go Canada Free Trade deal. I am testing your understanding of whether you really understand supply chains and regulatory compliance.
    So where is Honda's top selling car made? Or more simply how can other countries in the world ship large volumes of cars into the EU market yet, they are not in the single market or the customs union?
    It is a simple question.
    You mean Japan with car manufacture of 10 million vehicles a year has the scale to allow it to manufacture without international supply chains while the UK with a production of less than 2 million units is likely to go the way of Australia in terms of car manufacture when its supply lines are cut? Companies with investments in place won't up roots straight away but they won't put new investments in either. Which comes to the same thing in the end.
  • TheWhiteRabbitTheWhiteRabbit Posts: 7,728
    Foxy said:

    Don't look now, England third favourites for the World cup...!

    Brazil were first favourite an hour ago.
    If you mean, Foxy, that England might cease to be third favourite if they become 2-0 down to Sweden, then I am in agreement.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 32,798

    Off topic: I just made a quick exit from a train, stood on the platform and realised I was holding someone else's bag! Fortunately I had time to get back on, swap bags and get off again.

    This comes after being stranded at Alexandra Palace earlier due to a trespass incident and having to leg it to the nearest tube station to get to King's Cross...

    Sounds bad, but it'll be tough to top DavidL's 'My car burst into flames' story.
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 22,621
    rpjs said:

    HYUFD said:

    FF43 said:

    HYUFD said:

    FF43 said:



    Canada "fucks business", hence Johnson's comment. Businesses that rely on supply chains or regulatory compliance will no longer base themselves in the UK. This includes Airbus, almost all automotive manufacturing, pharmaceuticals, industrial chemicals, much agriculture and a large part of financial services. Our main industries and more. We're talking millions of jobs at risk. Canada isn't a common market - that's Norway. Canada is the ability to sell widgets without tariffs.

    A Canada deal is the only way to respect the Leave vote and most of the promises the Leave campaign made ie end free movement and control our borders, conduct our own trade deals, reclaim money from the EU and end ECJ jurisdiction over the UK and get a FTA.

    A Norway deal technically leaves the EU but in effect fills almost none of the Leave campaign's promises and requires free movement and ECJ jurisdiction and add in a Customs Union too and we cannot do our own trade deals either, WTO terms on the other hand fully respects the Leave vote but means no free trade deal and tariffs on trade with the EU and significant economic damage potentially albeit with no regulatory alignment and no payments to the EU
    I agree Canada does satisfy a Leave vote at one level, while Norway means outsourcing your economic and trade policy to a third party. That's sort of acceptable to Norway, but is it's unlike to be so for the UK beyond the short term. The problem with Canada is that it "fucks business".and I'm not convinced Leave voters think losing their jobs and standard of living is a price worth paying. They are hardly embracing the reality on this. Hence Theresa May's difficulties.
    Leave voters effectively said 'fuck big business' when they ignored business warnings on the economic risks of Brexit and voted Leave anyway to regain sovereignty and reduce immigration.

    Disrespect that and you disrespect democracy, a Canada deal has to at least be tried for a few year's and if we can achieve it it will still 'fuck business' less than WTO terms
    I do hope you'll respect the democratic decision to vote in a Corbyn/McDonnell government in 2022 or sooner, due to the mass unemployment a CTA Brexit will bring on.

    Democracy involves respecting minority rights too, especially when the majority is tiny. Leavers can vote to destroy their own economic future, but that doesn't mean Remainers have to sit by and accept the destruction of theirs.
    I don't think I could legitimately try to prevent the Labour Party from taking office, if they won an election. Obviously, I'd want to vote them out ASAP.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 44,886
    edited July 6
    rpjs said:

    HYUFD said:

    FF43 said:

    HYUFD said:

    FF43 said:



    Canada "fucks business", hence Johnson's comment. Businesses that rely on supply chains or regulatory compliance will no longer base themselves in the UK. This includes Airbus, almost all automotive manufacturing, pharmaceuticals, industrial chemicals, much agriculture and a large part of financial services. Our main industries and more. We're talking millions of jobs at risk. Canada isn't a common market - that's Norway. Canada is the ability to sell widgets without tariffs.

    A Canada deal is the only way to respect the Leave vote and most of the promises the Leave campaign made ie end free movement and control our borders, conduct our own trade deals, reclaim money from the EU and end ECJ jurisdiction over the UK and get a FTA.

    A Norway deal technically leaves the EU but in effect fills almost none of the Leave campaign's promises and requires free movement and o payments to the EU
    I agree Canada does satisfy a Leave vote at one esa May's difficulties.
    Leave voters effectively said 'fuck big business' when they ignored business warnings on the economic risks of Brexit and voted Leave anyway to regain sovereignty and reduce immigration.

    Disrespect that and you disrespect democracy, a Canada deal has to at least be tried for a few year's and if we can achieve it it will still 'fuck business' less than WTO terms
    I do hope you'll respect the democratic decision to vote in a Corbyn/McDonnell government in 2022 or sooner, due to the mass unemployment a CTA Brexit will bring on.

    Democracy involves respecting minority rights too, especially when the majority is tiny. Leavers can vote to destroy their own economic future, but that doesn't mean Remainers have to sit by and accept the destruction of theirs.
    On your first paragraph of course I will, if Corbyn Labour wins next time they will have a mandate to renationalise the railways and utilities and raise taxes on the rich and spend more and give more power to unions beyond question, that does not mean I would not be joining the Opposition to a Corbyn government from day one. Though your premise is not correct either Canada does not have mass unemployment and most UK exports now go outside the EU and most Tory voters are Brexiteers.

    On your second paragraph I am sorry you are wrong, democracy means respecting the manifesto of the party which wins a majority or the parties manifestoes in the event of a coalition government or confidence and supply deal with a majority or the winning campaign in a referendum. If you lose you lose, tough, you just try again at the next election, as a loser you have no say in the running of the government
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 9,120
    I knew someone would mention that Everton v Arsenal game from 2014. :(
This discussion has been closed.