Howdy, Stranger!

It looks like you're new here. If you want to get involved, click one of these buttons!

politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » Three Lions: just maybe

SystemSystem Posts: 6,199
edited July 7 in General

imagepoliticalbetting.com » Blog Archive » Three Lions: just maybe

I should start by apologising to Scots, Welsh and Northern Irish. This is a thread about England. It is also a thread about the continual disappointment and thwarted dreams that England’s national football team has visited on its fans so on that basis, perhaps fans from elsewhere will forgive me.

Read the full story here


«13456

Comments

  • SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 6,393
    World in motion
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 15,230
    2nd. Like...?
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 8,828
    edited July 7
    Nothing on Ally's Tartan Army.

    But, seriously, I think that's a very good analysis of the song, and some (not many, but some) people need to read this to understand what the song's about.
  • TheValiantTheValiant Posts: 152


    I’ll leave this here.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 18,164
    Two stars on a shirt.....?
  • Torby_FennelTorby_Fennel Posts: 295
    Looks like this afternoon might be a really good time to get the supermarket shopping done. :)

    For me, on these occasions, it's not just that I don't care about the football but that I also want to be publicly seen to be not caring about the football.
  • dr_spyndr_spyn Posts: 8,991
    Kuntz,


    currently the German under 21 coach, ill he be the German manager?
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 15,192
    I feel sick.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 31,793
    A double dose of Herdson? You spoil us, sirs.
  • SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 6,393

    Two stars on a shirt.....?

    So you are tipping France for the tournament?
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 6,247

    Looks like this afternoon might be a really good time to get the supermarket shopping done. :)

    For me, on these occasions, it's not just that I don't care about the football but that I also want to be publicly seen to be not caring about the football.

    If no one is there, how are you being seen ?

    I greatly enjoyed the unusual solitude of a walk during extra time in the last England game, but making a point about not caring seems a trifle churlish.
  • dr_spyndr_spyn Posts: 8,991
    edited July 7
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 31,793
    justin124 said:

    What an utter nonsensical and ignorant tweet from that guy!
    I think we've all had reason to make fun of poll accuracy from time to time, but 'They rig them but cannot rig this one effectively, also MOE means let's just 'safely' add 3 to my side's score' is just hilariously dumb. Must be a spoof.
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 8,828

    Two stars on a shirt.....?

    Surely not. Think how long we had to fight to get the first one put on the shirt.
  • SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 6,393
    Nigelb said:

    Looks like this afternoon might be a really good time to get the supermarket shopping done. :)

    For me, on these occasions, it's not just that I don't care about the football but that I also want to be publicly seen to be not caring about the football.

    If no one is there, how are you being seen ?

    I greatly enjoyed the unusual solitude of a walk during extra time in the last England game, but making a point about not caring seems a trifle churlish.
    I wonder if anyone goes to the 24-hour Tesco at 3am on election night to demonstrate that they aren't interested in politics?
  • Tackle by Moore is on Jairzinho, not Pele.
  • dr_spyndr_spyn Posts: 8,991

    Nigelb said:

    Looks like this afternoon might be a really good time to get the supermarket shopping done. :)

    For me, on these occasions, it's not just that I don't care about the football but that I also want to be publicly seen to be not caring about the football.

    If no one is there, how are you being seen ?

    I greatly enjoyed the unusual solitude of a walk during extra time in the last England game, but making a point about not caring seems a trifle churlish.
    I wonder if anyone goes to the 24-hour Tesco at 3am on election night to demonstrate that they aren't interested in politics?
    +1000
  • Torby_FennelTorby_Fennel Posts: 295
    edited July 7
    Nigelb said:

    Looks like this afternoon might be a really good time to get the supermarket shopping done. :)

    For me, on these occasions, it's not just that I don't care about the football but that I also want to be publicly seen to be not caring about the football.

    If no one is there, how are you being seen ?

    I greatly enjoyed the unusual solitude of a walk during extra time in the last England game, but making a point about not caring seems a trifle churlish.
    There won't be nobody there! There will be other football dislikers who also think it's a good time to get chores done. I'm being seen by the other people who don't care about football... it's about solidarity with those who think the same way as I do rather than defiance against those who like football. It's not churlish. Churlish would be to wish for the England team to get defeated... that's not my stance.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 42,885
    UKIP leader Gerard Batten is filming an address to the British people in his garden on 'Theresa May's Brexit treachery'

    https://mobile.twitter.com/UKIP/status/1015569072040366081
  • felixfelix Posts: 7,687
    kle4 said:

    justin124 said:

    What an utter nonsensical and ignorant tweet from that guy!
    I think we've all had reason to make fun of poll accuracy from time to time, but 'They rig them but cannot rig this one effectively, also MOE means let's just 'safely' add 3 to my side's score' is just hilariously dumb. Must be a spoof.
    Pretty well what several posters on here say regularly when they refer to 'anecdotal' evidence.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 42,885

    Nigelb said:

    Looks like this afternoon might be a really good time to get the supermarket shopping done. :)

    For me, on these occasions, it's not just that I don't care about the football but that I also want to be publicly seen to be not caring about the football.

    If no one is there, how are you being seen ?

    I greatly enjoyed the unusual solitude of a walk during extra time in the last England game, but making a point about not caring seems a trifle churlish.
    I wonder if anyone goes to the 24-hour Tesco at 3am on election night to demonstrate that they aren't interested in politics?
    Nick Clegg on election night 2015?
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 45,124
    kle4 said:

    justin124 said:

    What an utter nonsensical and ignorant tweet from that guy!
    I think we've all had reason to make fun of poll accuracy from time to time, but 'They rig them but cannot rig this one effectively, also MOE means let's just 'safely' add 3 to my side's score' is just hilariously dumb. Must be a spoof.
    I don't know about that, adding 3 or 5 to the Tories was definitely en vogue during GE17. He's just taken a leaf out of Martin Boons playbook and applied it to Labour ;)
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 31,793

    "Discussions in a literal hot-house."

    Except it wasn't. Chequers is a C16th Manor House and the rooms are actually very cool even during a heatwave.

    And this neatly illustrates the trouble with this article: speculation and guesswork. Until or unless ministers leak further details to the Sunday papers we remain in the dark. Something is clearly going on. The fact that Brexiteers (apart from Guido Fawkes, who wasn't present) are so chilled about it all means there's more to this than meets the eye.

    It might be as speculated - that they are counting on the EU rejecting it, therefore when they do the Brexiters can pursue a hard or no deal brexit from a position of righteousness. After all, they agreed to concede a lot and the EU still said no.

    I think given the immediate reactions May will take a hit at first, and all depends on if the EU suggest it is viable or not. Selling it as harder than the softs would like, and softer than the hards would like, might be enough for the party at least to think it acceptable, but only if the EU plays ball.
  • AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 20,202
    kle4 said:

    justin124 said:

    What an utter nonsensical and ignorant tweet from that guy!
    I think we've all had reason to make fun of poll accuracy from time to time, but 'They rig them but cannot rig this one effectively, also MOE means let's just 'safely' add 3 to my side's score' is just hilariously dumb. Must be a spoof.
    Yesterday there didn't seem much enthusiasm on here for a poll that showed a 19% gap between Brexit pessimists and Brexit optimists. Rigour about polls seems to be an optional activity for far more people than one might credit.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 31,793
    felix said:

    kle4 said:

    justin124 said:

    What an utter nonsensical and ignorant tweet from that guy!
    I think we've all had reason to make fun of poll accuracy from time to time, but 'They rig them but cannot rig this one effectively, also MOE means let's just 'safely' add 3 to my side's score' is just hilariously dumb. Must be a spoof.
    Pretty well what several posters on here say regularly when they refer to 'anecdotal' evidence.
    Perhaps, but not believing a poll because anecdotally we feel otherwise is not on the same level of magnitude of accusations of rigging andarbitrarily adding points on to the score.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 42,885
    edited July 7
    Pulpstar said:

    kle4 said:

    justin124 said:

    What an utter nonsensical and ignorant tweet from that guy!
    I think we've all had reason to make fun of poll accuracy from time to time, but 'They rig them but cannot rig this one effectively, also MOE means let's just 'safely' add 3 to my side's score' is just hilariously dumb. Must be a spoof.
    I don't know about that, adding 3 or 5 to the Tories was definitely en vogue during GE17. He's just taken a leaf out of Martin Boons playbook and applied it to Labour ;)
    Gold Standard Survation has the Tories ahead too and of course in 2015 yougov's final general election poll had the Tories and Labour tied and the Tories won by 7%, so yougov underestimated the Tories then
  • FloaterFloater Posts: 5,698
    dr_spyn said:

    Kuntz,


    currently the German under 21 coach, ill he be the German manager?

    Does he have many siblings? - that would make them a bunch......

  • kle4kle4 Posts: 31,793

    kle4 said:

    justin124 said:

    What an utter nonsensical and ignorant tweet from that guy!
    I think we've all had reason to make fun of poll accuracy from time to time, but 'They rig them but cannot rig this one effectively, also MOE means let's just 'safely' add 3 to my side's score' is just hilariously dumb. Must be a spoof.
    Yesterday there didn't seem much enthusiasm on here for a poll that showed a 19% gap between Brexit pessimists and Brexit optimists. Rigour about polls seems to be an optional activity for far more people than one might credit.
    There's a sliding scale of rigour. That guy is at the far end, but I think everyone can find reasons to ignore or explain away any poll or set of polls because we can always fall back on examples where they were not reflective.
  • dr_spyndr_spyn Posts: 8,991
    HYUFD said:

    Nigelb said:

    Looks like this afternoon might be a really good time to get the supermarket shopping done. :)

    For me, on these occasions, it's not just that I don't care about the football but that I also want to be publicly seen to be not caring about the football.

    If no one is there, how are you being seen ?

    I greatly enjoyed the unusual solitude of a walk during extra time in the last England game, but making a point about not caring seems a trifle churlish.
    I wonder if anyone goes to the 24-hour Tesco at 3am on election night to demonstrate that they aren't interested in politics?
    Nick Clegg on election night 2015?
    One for the lip readers, when he arrived with his wife.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 31,793

    How long before Johnson decides he wasn’t in the room when the vote was taken or his attention was otherwise elsewhere, or something, so he doesn’t have to abide by the decision?

    Depends on how much heat May takes going forward, which depends on if the EU agree the plan is viable or not.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 18,622
    Dreams of being 18, 22 years ago. Best football song ever.
  • SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 6,393
    dr_spyn said:

    HYUFD said:

    Nigelb said:

    Looks like this afternoon might be a really good time to get the supermarket shopping done. :)

    For me, on these occasions, it's not just that I don't care about the football but that I also want to be publicly seen to be not caring about the football.

    If no one is there, how are you being seen ?

    I greatly enjoyed the unusual solitude of a walk during extra time in the last England game, but making a point about not caring seems a trifle churlish.
    I wonder if anyone goes to the 24-hour Tesco at 3am on election night to demonstrate that they aren't interested in politics?
    Nick Clegg on election night 2015?
    One for the lip readers, when he arrived with his wife.
    "Yes! Yes! Oh my God! Yes!"

    Ah, that's not what you meant by 'arrived with his wife'!
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 11,808
    Do you get Clubcard points for joining in with the celebration?

  • kle4kle4 Posts: 31,793

    dr_spyn said:

    HYUFD said:

    Nigelb said:

    Looks like this afternoon might be a really good time to get the supermarket shopping done. :)

    For me, on these occasions, it's not just that I don't care about the football but that I also want to be publicly seen to be not caring about the football.

    If no one is there, how are you being seen ?

    I greatly enjoyed the unusual solitude of a walk during extra time in the last England game, but making a point about not caring seems a trifle churlish.
    I wonder if anyone goes to the 24-hour Tesco at 3am on election night to demonstrate that they aren't interested in politics?
    Nick Clegg on election night 2015?
    One for the lip readers, when he arrived with his wife.
    "Yes! Yes! Oh my God! Yes!"

    Ah, that's not what you meant by 'arrived with his wife'!
    *applause*
  • daodaodaodao Posts: 602

    Nigelb said:

    Looks like this afternoon might be a really good time to get the supermarket shopping done. :)

    For me, on these occasions, it's not just that I don't care about the football but that I also want to be publicly seen to be not caring about the football.

    If no one is there, how are you being seen ?

    I greatly enjoyed the unusual solitude of a walk during extra time in the last England game, but making a point about not caring seems a trifle churlish.
    There won't be nobody there! There will be other football dislikers who also think it's a good time to get chores done. I'm being seen by the other people who don't care about football... it's about solidarity with those who think the same way as I do rather than defiance against those who like football. It's not churlish. Churlish would be to wish for the England team to get defeated... that's not my stance.
    If Germany can't win, they are probably hoping that one of their satrapies wins the World cup.
    Thus Russia and England need to be eliminated today, as I am expecting to occur
  • felixfelix Posts: 7,687
    kle4 said:

    How long before Johnson decides he wasn’t in the room when the vote was taken or his attention was otherwise elsewhere, or something, so he doesn’t have to abide by the decision?

    Depends on how much heat May takes going forward, which depends on if the EU agree the plan is viable or not.
    Bojo can resign or be sacked if he takes that line. I suspect he won't take that line. May will be forced out before the next GE - the price for making the party see sense. If she succeeds the party will owe her a great debt. Her big mistake was the GE for which she must pay the price one way or another.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 18,622
    Thanks to Lance Stroll being his usual crap self and going off the track, F1 qualy session delayed and is now going to overlap with the first few minutes of the match. Damn.
  • daodaodaodao Posts: 602
    kle4 said:

    "Discussions in a literal hot-house."

    Except it wasn't. Chequers is a C16th Manor House and the rooms are actually very cool even during a heatwave.

    And this neatly illustrates the trouble with this article: speculation and guesswork. Until or unless ministers leak further details to the Sunday papers we remain in the dark. Something is clearly going on. The fact that Brexiteers (apart from Guido Fawkes, who wasn't present) are so chilled about it all means there's more to this than meets the eye.

    It might be as speculated - that they are counting on the EU rejecting it, therefore when they do the Brexiters can pursue a hard or no deal brexit from a position of righteousness. After all, they agreed to concede a lot and the EU still said no.

    I think given the immediate reactions May will take a hit at first, and all depends on if the EU suggest it is viable or not. Selling it as harder than the softs would like, and softer than the hards would like, might be enough for the party at least to think it acceptable, but only if the EU plays ball.
    TM's proposal is picking and choosing from the "4 freedoms". The EU should reject it and treat the UK like it treats Russia.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 31,793
    felix said:

    kle4 said:

    How long before Johnson decides he wasn’t in the room when the vote was taken or his attention was otherwise elsewhere, or something, so he doesn’t have to abide by the decision?

    Depends on how much heat May takes going forward, which depends on if the EU agree the plan is viable or not.
    Bojo can resign or be sacked if he takes that line. I suspect he won't take that line.
    I don't either, so long as May appears to be making progress.Plenty won't be happy, but my initial thoughts post 2017 were that a very hard job just got a lot harder, and who wants to take that on? A new PM can take over before the next GE, well done thy good and faithful servant now bugger off. But if the EU reject and yet a hard line still isn't countenanced, if yet more red lines are blurred, Boris is most likely to flounce, though he has not shown willing to force a confrontation to date.
  • felixfelix Posts: 7,687
    daodao said:

    kle4 said:

    "Discussions in a literal hot-house."

    Except it wasn't. Chequers is a C16th Manor House and the rooms are actually very cool even during a heatwave.

    And this neatly illustrates the trouble with this article: speculation and guesswork. Until or unless ministers leak further details to the Sunday papers we remain in the dark. Something is clearly going on. The fact that Brexiteers (apart from Guido Fawkes, who wasn't present) are so chilled about it all means there's more to this than meets the eye.

    It might be as speculated - that they are counting on the EU rejecting it, therefore when they do the Brexiters can pursue a hard or no deal brexit from a position of righteousness. After all, they agreed to concede a lot and the EU still said no.

    I think given the immediate reactions May will take a hit at first, and all depends on if the EU suggest it is viable or not. Selling it as harder than the softs would like, and softer than the hards would like, might be enough for the party at least to think it acceptable, but only if the EU plays ball.
    TM's proposal is picking and choosing from the "4 freedoms". The EU should reject it and treat the UK like it treats Russia.
    What a bizarre comment. Actually the EU approach to Russia is at best ambivalent. However, the howls form diehards on both sides of the fence suggest Ms. May has played something of a blinder.
  • SunnyJimSunnyJim Posts: 77
    Assuming further concessions beyond this proposal are offered to the EU to finalize a deal then the end result will, of course, be a very soft Brexit.

    Long-term I suspect this will play in to the hands of the hard Brexiteers as every economic, legal or immigration setback will be blamed on the deal that prevented the UK 'doing it properly'.

    There is no way the ratchet will turn back towards a closer relationship with Europe as I can see the media setting up the EU/Remainers for the blame.

    'If only we do Brexit properly' will be a popular rallying slogan at future GE's I suspect just as the communists always needed a little more ideological purity for success.

    No question that Remainers own this Brexit though...it certainly isn't a Leavers Brexit.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 31,793
    daodao said:

    kle4 said:

    "Discussions in a literal hot-house."

    Except it wasn't. Chequers is a C16th Manor House and the rooms are actually very cool even during a heatwave.

    And this neatly illustrates the trouble with this article: speculation and guesswork. Until or unless ministers leak further details to the Sunday papers we remain in the dark. Something is clearly going on. The fact that Brexiteers (apart from Guido Fawkes, who wasn't present) are so chilled about it all means there's more to this than meets the eye.

    It might be as speculated - that they are counting on the EU rejecting it, therefore when they do the Brexiters can pursue a hard or no deal brexit from a position of righteousness. After all, they agreed to concede a lot and the EU still said no.

    I think given the immediate reactions May will take a hit at first, and all depends on if the EU suggest it is viable or not. Selling it as harder than the softs would like, and softer than the hards would like, might be enough for the party at least to think it acceptable, but only if the EU plays ball.
    TM's proposal is picking and choosing from the "4 freedoms". The EU should reject it
    In which case no deal brexit becomes most likely again. I think the EU would prefer that to compromising on its own red lines.

  • kle4kle4 Posts: 31,793
    SunnyJim said:

    Assuming further concessions beyond this proposal are offered to the EU to finalize a deal then the end result will, of course, be a very soft Brexit.

    Long-term I suspect this will play in to the hands of the hard Brexiteers as every economic, legal or immigration setback will be blamed on the deal that prevented the UK 'doing it properly'.

    There is no way the ratchet will turn back towards a closer relationship with Europe as I can see the media setting up the EU/Remainers for the blame.

    'If only we do Brexit properly' will be a popular rallying slogan at future GE's I suspect just as the communists always needed a little more ideological purity for success.

    No question that Remainers own this Brexit though...it certainly isn't a Leavers Brexit.

    We'll get whatever Brexit can get through parliament. Hard leavers will have to play a longer game - agreements can always be changed down the line, and if this is proper brexit, and there is sufficient demand for proper brexit, its time will come.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 42,885
    daodao said:

    kle4 said:

    "Discussions in a literal hot-house."

    Except it wasn't. Chequers is a C16th Manor House and the rooms are actually very cool even during a heatwave.

    And this neatly illustrates the trouble with this article: speculation and guesswork. Until or unless ministers leak further details to the Sunday papers we remain in the dark. Something is clearly going on. The fact that Brexiteers (apart from Guido Fawkes, who wasn't present) are so chilled about it all means there's more to this than meets the eye.

    It might be as speculated - that they are counting on the EU rejecting it, therefore when they do the Brexiters can pursue a hard or no deal brexit from a position of righteousness. After all, they agreed to concede a lot and the EU still said no.

    I think given the immediate reactions May will take a hit at first, and all depends on if the EU suggest it is viable or not. Selling it as harder than the softs would like, and softer than the hards would like, might be enough for the party at least to think it acceptable, but only if the EU plays ball.
    TM's proposal is picking and choosing from the "4 freedoms". The EU should reject it and treat the UK like it treats Russia.
    If the EU reject even this deal then in my view as Tories we would have to accept they do not want a deal and put Mogg, Gove or Boris in as Tory leader and PM and prepare for hard Brexit and WTO terms.

    Of course the EU would have to reflect on tariffs on EU exports to the UK, which will be the EU's biggest export destination post Brexit as well as the tariffs Trump has also slammed on EU exports, the USA being the EU's current largest export destination
  • PendduPenddu Posts: 148
    I think that that is probably the best footballing song ever.

    However as a Welshman I am more inclined to sing the more accurate version of 'Englands going home.....your going home....your going home....'

  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 13,748
    They've just shown Forsburg missing ten chances as an example of what a threat to us he is.
  • AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 20,202
    For some reason England have shortened during the course of the day on Betfair from 1.99 to 1.91 to win in 90 minutes today. Anyone have a rational explanation for this?
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 13,748

    For some reason England have shortened during the course of the day on Betfair from 1.99 to 1.91 to win in 90 minutes today. Anyone have a rational explanation for this?

    It's what we do.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 42,885
    HYUFD said:

    daodao said:

    kle4 said:

    "Discussions in a literal hot-house."

    Except it wasn't. Chequers is a C16th Manor House and the rooms are actually very cool even during a heatwave.

    And this neatly illustrates the trouble with this article: speculation and guesswork. Until or unless ministers leak further details to the Sunday papers we remain in the dark. Something is clearly going on. The fact that Brexiteers (apart from Guido Fawkes, who wasn't present) are so chilled about it all means there's more to this than meets the eye.

    It might be as speculated - that they are counting on the EU rejecting it, therefore when they do the Brexiters can pursue a hard or no deal brexit from a position of righteousness. After all, they agreed to concede a lot and the EU still said no.

    I think given the immediate reactions May will take a hit at first, and all depends on if the EU suggest it is viable or not. Selling it as harder than the softs would like, and softer than the hards would like, might be enough for the party at least to think it acceptable, but only if the EU plays ball.
    TM's proposal is picking and choosing from the "4 freedoms". The EU should reject it and treat the UK like it treats Russia.
    If the EU reject even this deal then in my view as Tories we would have to accept they do not want a deal and put Mogg, Gove or Boris in as Tory leader and PM and prepare for hard Brexit and WTO terms.

    Of course the EU would have to reflect on tariffs on EU exports to the UK, which will be the EU's biggest export destination post Brexit as well as the tariffs Trump has also slammed on EU exports, the USA being the EU's current largest export destination
    If the EU wants a hostile post Brexit UK as well as a hostile Putin's Russia on its borders and a hostile Trump's USA while also coping with the migrant crisis from North Africa and the populist backlash and the tensions within the Eurozone then so be it
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 13,748
    I'm a big fan of Jermaine Jenas' commentary and analysis.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 31,793
    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    daodao said:

    kle4 said:

    "Discussions in a literal hot-house."

    Except it wasn't. Chequers is a C16th Manor House and the rooms are actually very cool even during a heatwave.

    And this neatly illustrates the trouble with this article: speculation and guesswork. Until or unless ministers leak further details to the Sunday papers we remain in the dark. Something is clearly going on. The fact that Brexiteers (apart from Guido Fawkes, who wasn't present) are so chilled about it all means there's more to this than meets the eye.

    It might be as speculated - that they are counting on the EU rejecting it, therefore when they do the Brexiters can pursue a hard or no deal brexit from a position of righteousness. After all, they agreed to concede a lot and the EU still said no.

    I think given the immediate reactions May will take a hit at first, and all depends on if the EU suggest it is viable or not. Selling it as harder than the softs would like, and softer than the hards would like, might be enough for the party at least to think it acceptable, but only if the EU plays ball.
    TM's proposal is picking and choosing from the "4 freedoms". The EU should reject it and treat the UK like it treats Russia.
    If the EU reject even this deal then in my view as Tories we would have to accept they do not want a deal and put Mogg, Gove or Boris in as Tory leader and PM and prepare for hard Brexit and WTO terms.

    Of course the EU would have to reflect on tariffs on EU exports to the UK, which will be the EU's biggest export destination post Brexit as well as the tariffs Trump has also slammed on EU exports, the USA being the EU's current largest export destination
    If the EU wants a hostile post Brexit UK as well as a hostile Putin's Russia on its borders and a hostile Trump's USA while also coping with the migrant crisis from North Africa and the populist backlash and the tensions within the Eurozone then so be it
    I don't think they do. I think they are gambling we will compromise yet further, so they do not have to, and that at worst in a no deal situation we will be bitter but too damaged for it to matter.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 20,000
    HYUFD said:

    daodao said:

    kle4 said:

    "Discussions in a literal hot-house."

    Except it wasn't. Chequers is a C16th Manor House and the rooms are actually very cool even during a heatwave.

    And this neatly illustrates the trouble with this article: speculation and guesswork. Until or unless ministers leak further details to the Sunday papers we remain in the dark. Something is clearly going on. The fact that Brexiteers (apart from Guido Fawkes, who wasn't present) are so chilled about it all means there's more to this than meets the eye.

    It might be as speculated - that they are counting on the EU rejecting it, therefore when they do the Brexiters can pursue a hard or no deal brexit from a position of righteousness. After all, they agreed to concede a lot and the EU still said no.

    I think given the immediate reactions May will take a hit at first, and all depends on if the EU suggest it is viable or not. Selling it as harder than the softs would like, and softer than the hards would like, might be enough for the party at least to think it acceptable, but only if the EU plays ball.
    TM's proposal is picking and choosing from the "4 freedoms". The EU should reject it and treat the UK like it treats Russia.
    If the EU reject even this deal then in my view as Tories we would have to accept they do not want a deal and put Mogg, Gove or Boris in as Tory leader and PM and prepare for hard Brexit and WTO terms.

    Of course the EU would have to reflect on tariffs on EU exports to the UK, which will be the EU's biggest export destination post Brexit as well as the tariffs Trump has also slammed on EU exports, the USA being the EU's current largest export destination
    The Telegraph was suggesting yesterday that we threaten to ban German cars completely.
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 8,828
    Froome in the dirt.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 18,622

    For some reason England have shortened during the course of the day on Betfair from 1.99 to 1.91 to win in 90 minutes today. Anyone have a rational explanation for this?

    Optimistic England fans piling on?
  • brendan16brendan16 Posts: 1,048

    Looks like this afternoon might be a really good time to get the supermarket shopping done. :)

    For me, on these occasions, it's not just that I don't care about the football but that I also want to be publicly seen to be not caring about the football.

    I am sure you are not alone in that. If 23 million are estimated to have watched the Colombia match that means up to 42 million didn't which is nearly twice as many!

    But even if you aren't watching or are shopping in your local Tesco it is hard to miss the cheers or groans from local pubs and neighbours unless you live in the country. So you always know it's on!
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 18,622
    brendan16 said:

    Looks like this afternoon might be a really good time to get the supermarket shopping done. :)

    For me, on these occasions, it's not just that I don't care about the football but that I also want to be publicly seen to be not caring about the football.

    I am sure you are not alone in that. If 23 million are estimated to have watched the Colombia match that means up to 42 million didn't which is nearly twice as many!

    But even if you aren't watching or are shopping in your local Tesco it is hard to miss the cheers or groans from local pubs and neighbours unless you live in the country. So you always know it's on!
    The 23m doesn’t include those watching in pubs or at big house parties, 33m is probably closer to the actual number.
  • edited July 7
    Penddu said:

    I think that that is probably the best footballing song ever.

    However as a Welshman I am more inclined to sing the more accurate version of 'Englands going home.....your going home....your going home....'

    I take it you Welsh lads sing "We're staying home, we're staying, Wales are staying home"?
  • Torby_FennelTorby_Fennel Posts: 295
    SunnyJim said:



    No question that Remainers own this Brexit though...it certainly isn't a Leavers Brexit.

    There's no such thing as a Remainers Brexit so it most certainly is a Leavers Brexit. The referendum question was simply Leave or Remain. Any kind of Brexit 100% honours the answer given to the only question that was asked of the public.

  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 42,885

    HYUFD said:

    daodao said:

    kle4 said:

    "Discussions in a literal hot-house."

    Except it wasn't. Chequers is a C16th Manor House and the rooms are actually very cool even during a heatwave.

    And this neatly illustrates the trouble with this article: speculation and guesswork. Until or unless ministers leak further details to the Sunday papers we remain in the dark. Something is clearly going on. The fact that Brexiteers (apart from Guido Fawkes, who wasn't present) are so chilled about it all means there's more to this than meets the eye.

    It might be as speculated - that they are counting on the EU rejecting it, therefore when they do the Brexiters can pursue a hard or no deal brexit from a position of righteousness. After all, they agreed to concede a lot and the EU still said no.

    I think given the immediate reactions May will take a hit at first, and all depends on if the EU suggest it is viable or not. Selling it as harder than the softs would like, and softer than the hards would like, might be enough for the party at least to think it acceptable, but only if the EU plays ball.
    TM's proposal is picking and choosing from the "4 freedoms". The EU should reject it and treat the UK like it treats Russia.
    If the EU reject even this deal then in my view as Tories we would have to accept they do not want a deal and put Mogg, Gove or Boris in as Tory leader and PM and prepare for hard Brexit and WTO terms.

    Of course the EU would have to reflect on tariffs on EU exports to the UK, which will be the EU's biggest export destination post Brexit as well as the tariffs Trump has also slammed on EU exports, the USA being the EU's current largest export destination
    The Telegraph was suggesting yesterday that we threaten to ban German cars completely.
    Expect many more such calls if Barnier and co reject May's proposals
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 42,885
    edited July 7
    kle4 said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    daodao said:

    kle4 said:

    "Discussions in a literal hot-house."

    Except it wasn't. Chequers is a C16th Manor House and the rooms are actually very cool even during a heatwave.

    And this neatly illustrates the trouble with this article: speculation and guesswork. Until or unless ministers leak further details to the Sunday papers we remain in the dark. Something is clearly going on. The fact that Brexiteers (apart from Guido Fawkes, who wasn't present) are so chilled about it all means there's more to this than meets the eye.

    It might be as speculated - that they are counting on the EU rejecting it, therefore when they do the Brexiters can pursue a hard or no deal brexit from a position of righteousness. After all, they agreed to concede a lot and the EU still said no.

    I think given the immediate reactions May will take a hit at first, and all depends on if the EU suggest it is viable or not. Selling it as harder than the softs would like, and softer than the hards would like, might be enough for the party at least to think it acceptable, but only if the EU plays ball.
    TM's proposal is picking and choosing from the "4 freedoms". The EU should reject it and treat the UK like it treats Russia.
    If the EU reject even this deal then in my view as Tories we would have to accept they do not want a deal and put Mogg, Gove or Boris in as Tory leader and PM and prepare for hard Brexit and WTO terms.

    Of course the EU would have to reflect on tariffs on EU exports to the UK, which will be the EU's biggest export destination post Brexit as well as the tariffs Trump has also slammed on EU exports, the USA being the EU's current largest export destination
    If the EU wants a hostile post Brexit UK as well as a hostile Putin's Russia on its borders and a hostile Trump's USA while also coping with the migrant crisis from North Africa and the populist backlash and the tensions within the Eurozone then so be it
    I don't think they do. I think they are gambling we will compromise yet further, so they do not have to, and that at worst in a no deal situation we will be bitter but too damaged for it to matter.
    Except we won't compromise further, the ball is now in the EU's court, they can take it or leave it.

    They are also not be going to be able to replace the UK as their largest export destination overnight
  • FF43FF43 Posts: 6,885
    SunnyJim said:

    Assuming further concessions beyond this proposal are offered to the EU to finalize a deal then the end result will, of course, be a very soft Brexit.

    Long-term I suspect this will play in to the hands of the hard Brexiteers as every economic, legal or immigration setback will be blamed on the deal that prevented the UK 'doing it properly'.

    There is no way the ratchet will turn back towards a closer relationship with Europe as I can see the media setting up the EU/Remainers for the blame.

    'If only we do Brexit properly' will be a popular rallying slogan at future GE's I suspect just as the communists always needed a little more ideological purity for success.

    No question that Remainers own this Brexit though...it certainly isn't a Leavers Brexit.

    A Remainers Brexit is like a Virgin Birth. But why not ? If the Mother of God got away with it ...
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 29,101

    HYUFD said:

    daodao said:

    kle4 said:

    "Discussions in a literal hot-house."

    Except it wasn't. Chequers is a C16th Manor House and the rooms are actually very cool even during a heatwave.

    And this neatly illustrates the trouble with this article: speculation and guesswork. Until or unless ministers leak further details to the Sunday papers we remain in the dark. Something is clearly going on. The fact that Brexiteers (apart from Guido Fawkes, who wasn't present) are so chilled about it all means there's more to this than meets the eye.

    It might be as speculated - that they are counting on the EU rejecting it, therefore when they do the Brexiters can pursue a hard or no deal brexit from a position of righteousness. After all, they agreed to concede a lot and the EU still said no.

    I think given the immediate reactions May will take a hit at first, and all depends on if the EU suggest it is viable or not. Selling it as harder than the softs would like, and softer than the hards would like, might be enough for the party at least to think it acceptable, but only if the EU plays ball.
    TM's proposal is picking and choosing from the "4 freedoms". The EU should reject it and treat the UK like it treats Russia.
    If the EU reject even this deal then in my view as Tories we would have to accept they do not want a deal and put Mogg, Gove or Boris in as Tory leader and PM and prepare for hard Brexit and WTO terms.

    Of course the EU would have to reflect on tariffs on EU exports to the UK, which will be the EU's biggest export destination post Brexit as well as the tariffs Trump has also slammed on EU exports, the USA being the EU's current largest export destination
    The Telegraph was suggesting yesterday that we threaten to ban German cars completely.
    On health grounds as we've no idea what their emissions are?
  • SunnyJimSunnyJim Posts: 77

    SunnyJim said:



    No question that Remainers own this Brexit though...it certainly isn't a Leavers Brexit.

    There's no such thing as a Remainers Brexit so it most certainly is a Leavers Brexit. The referendum question was simply Leave or Remain. Any kind of Brexit 100% honours the answer given to the only question that was asked of the public.

    In a literal sense you are correct of course.

    However, I don't think anybody (and especially the MSM) consider a soft-Brexit to be anything other than a wrecking attempt by the EU/Remainer alliance.

    Remainers definately DO own any soft-Brexit...few Leave voters will have had this in mind when they voted.

  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 29,101
    Tory MPs and ministers have consistently under-estimated their leader.

    What Theresa May achieved at Chequers yesterday was extraordinary.

    She persuaded her cabinet to sign up for a Brexit plan that drives a coach and horses through what the Brexiters in her team - especially Johnson and Gove - said Brexit was all about, during that historic referendum campaign.


    http://www.itv.com/news/2018-07-07/how-may-crushed-the-brexiters/
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 42,885
    brendan16 said:

    Looks like this afternoon might be a really good time to get the supermarket shopping done. :)

    For me, on these occasions, it's not just that I don't care about the football but that I also want to be publicly seen to be not caring about the football.

    I am sure you are not alone in that. If 23 million are estimated to have watched the Colombia match that means up to 42 million didn't which is nearly twice as many!

    But even if you aren't watching or are shopping in your local Tesco it is hard to miss the cheers or groans from local pubs and neighbours unless you live in the country. So you always know it's on!
    Only 3 programmes in UK TV history have got viewers over 30 million, the 1966 world cup final, Princess Diana's funeral and a documentary on the royal family.

    So if England get to the world cup final, of course still a big if, it could get into that top 3

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_most_watched_television_broadcasts
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 31,793
    HYUFD said:

    kle4 said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    daodao said:

    kle4 said:

    "Discussions in a literal hot-house."

    Except it wasn't. Chequers is a C16th Manor House and the rooms are actually very cool even during a heatwave.

    And this neatly illustrates the trouble with this article: speculation and guesswork. Until or unless ministers leak further details to the Sunday papers we remain in the dark. Something is clearly going on. The fact that Brexiteers (apart from Guido Fawkes, who wasn't present) are so chilled about it all means there's more to this than meets the eye.

    It might be as speculated - that they are counting on the EU rejecting it, therefore when they do the Brexiters can pursue a hard or no deal brexit from a position of righteousness. After all, they agreed to concede a lot and the EU still said no.

    I think given the immediate reactions May will take a hit at first, and all depends on if the EU suggest it is viable or not. Selling it as harder than the softs would like, and softer than the hards would like, might be enough for the party at least to think it acceptable, but only if the EU plays ball.
    TM's proposal is picking and choosing from the "4 freedoms". The EU should reject it and treat the UK like it treats Russia.
    If the EU reject even this deal then in my view as Tories we would have to accept they do not want a deal and put Mogg, Gove or Boris in as Tory leader and PM and prepare for hard Brexit and WTO terms.

    Of course the EU would have to reflect on tariffs on EU exports to the UK, which will be the EU's biggest export destination post Brexit as well as the tariffs Trump has also slammed on EU exports, the USA being the EU's current largest export destination
    If the EU wants a hostile post Brexit UK as well as a hostile Putin's Russia on its borders and a hostile Trump's USA while also coping with the migrant crisis from North Africa and the populist backlash and the tensions within the Eurozone then so be it
    I don't think they do. I think they are gambling we will compromise yet further, so they do not have to, and that at worst in a no deal situation we will be bitter but too damaged for it to matter.
    Except we won't compromise further, the ball is now in the EU's court, they can take it or leave it.

    They aren't going to believe that. Not yet at any rate. I suppose the question is when they come back and say either no or 'more is required' what will the Cabinet do between now and the deadline?
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 20,000
    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    daodao said:

    kle4 said:

    "Discussions in a literal hot-house."

    Except it wasn't. Chequers is a C16th Manor House and the rooms are actually very cool even during a heatwave.

    And this neatly illustrates the trouble with this article: speculation and guesswork. Until or unless ministers leak further details to the Sunday papers we remain in the dark. Something is clearly going on. The fact that Brexiteers (apart from Guido Fawkes, who wasn't present) are so chilled about it all means there's more to this than meets the eye.

    It might be as speculated - that they are counting on the EU rejecting it, therefore when they do the Brexiters can pursue a hard or no deal brexit from a position of righteousness. After all, they agreed to concede a lot and the EU still said no.

    I think given the immediate reactions May will take a hit at first, and all depends on if the EU suggest it is viable or not. Selling it as harder than the softs would like, and softer than the hards would like, might be enough for the party at least to think it acceptable, but only if the EU plays ball.
    TM's proposal is picking and choosing from the "4 freedoms". The EU should reject it and treat the UK like it treats Russia.
    If the EU reject even this deal then in my view as Tories we would have to accept they do not want a deal and put Mogg, Gove or Boris in as Tory leader and PM and prepare for hard Brexit and WTO terms.

    Of course the EU would have to reflect on tariffs on EU exports to the UK, which will be the EU's biggest export destination post Brexit as well as the tariffs Trump has also slammed on EU exports, the USA being the EU's current largest export destination
    The Telegraph was suggesting yesterday that we threaten to ban German cars completely.
    Expect many more such calls if Barnier and co reject May's proposals
    I'm sure the EU will be quaking at the thought of Telegraph readers bursting a blood vessel.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 42,885
    edited July 7
    kle4 said:

    HYUFD said:

    kle4 said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    daodao said:

    kle4 said:

    "Discussions in a literal hot-house."

    Except it wasn't. Chequers is a C16th Manor House and the rooms are actually very cool even during a heatwave.

    And this neatly illustrates the trouble with this article: speculation and guesswork. Until or unless ministers leak further details to the Sunday papers we remain in the dark. Something is clearly going on. The fact that Brexiteers (apart from Guido Fawkes, who wasn't present) are so chilled about it all means there's more to this than meets the eye.

    It might be as speculated - that they are counting on the EU rejecting it, therefore when they do the Brexiters can pursue t only if the EU plays ball.
    TM's proposal is picking and choosing from the "4 freedoms". The EU should reject it and treat the UK like it treats Russia.
    If the EU reject even this deal then in my view as Tories we would have to accept they do not want a deal and put Mogg, Gove or Boris in as Tory leader and PM and prepare for hard Brexit and WTO terms.

    Of course the EU would have to reflect on tariffs on EU exports to the UK, which will be the EU's biggest export destination post Brexit as well as the tariffs Trump has also slammed on EU exports, the USA being the EU's current largest export destination
    If the EU wants a hostile post Brexit UK as well as a hostile Putin's Russia on its borders and a hostile Trump's USA while also coping with the migrant crisis from North Africa and the populist backlash and the tensions within the Eurozone then so be it
    I don't think they do. I think they are gambling we will compromise yet further, so they do not have to, and that at worst in a no deal situation we will be bitter but too damaged for it to matter.
    Except we won't compromise further, the ball is now in the EU's court, they can take it or leave it.

    They aren't going to believe that. Not yet at any rate. I suppose the question is when they come back and say either no or 'more is required' what will the Cabinet do between now and the deadline?
    It will most likely tell May she has to resign or face a no confidence vote and prepare for No Deal and a Mogg, Boris or Gove or Javid premiership.

    Sadly for her she would become Chamberlain and it would be her Munich Agreement
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 13,748
    edited July 7
    HYUFD said:

    kle4 said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    daodao said:

    kle4 said:

    "Discussions in a literal hot-house."

    Except it wasn't. Chequers is a C16th Manor House and the rooms are actually very cool even during a heatwave.

    And this neatly illustrates the trouble with this article: speculation and guesswork. Until or unless ministers leak further details to the Sunday papers we remain in the dark. Something is clearly going on. The fact that Brexiteers (apart from Guido Fawkes, who wasn't present) are so chilled about it all means there's more to this than meets the eye.

    It might be as speculated - that they are counting on the EU rejecting it, therefore when they do the Brexiters can pursue a hard or no deal brexit from a position of righteousness. After all, they agreed to concede a lot and the EU still said no.

    I think given the immediate reactions May will take a hit at first, and all depends on if the EU suggest it is viable or not. Selling it as harder than the softs would like, and softer than the hards would like, might be enough for the party at least to think it acceptable, but only if the EU plays ball.
    TM's proposal is picking and choosing from the "4 freedoms". The EU should reject it and treat the UK like it treats Russia.
    If the EU reject even this deal then in my view as Tories we would have to accept they do not want a deal and put Mogg, Gove or Boris in as Tory leader and PM and prepare for hard Brexit and WTO terms.

    Of course the EU would have to reflect on tariffs on EU exports to the UK, which will be the EU's biggest export destination post Brexit as well as the tariffs Trump has also slammed on EU exports, the USA being the EU's current largest export destination
    If the EU wants a hostile post Brexit UK as well as a hostile Putin's Russia on its borders and a hostile Trump's USA while also coping with the migrant crisis from North Africa and the populist backlash and the tensions within the Eurozone then so be it
    I don't think they do. I think they are gambling we will compromise yet further, so they do not have to, and that at worst in a no deal situation we will be bitter but too damaged for it to matter.
    Except we won't compromise further, the ball is now in the EU's court, they can take it or leave it.

    They are also not be going to be able to replace the UK as their largest export destination overnight
    We account for approx 6% of each EU country's exports (OK, Germany and France which I just googled). The EU accounts for nearly 50% of our exports.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 42,885
    edited July 7

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    daodao said:

    kle4 said:

    "Discussions in a literal hot-house."

    Except it wasn't. Chequers is a C16th Manor House and the rooms are actually very cool even during a heatwave.

    And this neatly illustrates the trouble with this article: speculation and guesswork. Until or unless ministers leak further details to the Sunday papers we remain in the dark. Something is clearly going on. The fact that Brexiteers (apart from Guido Fawkes, who wasn't present) are so chilled about it all means there's more to this than meets the eye.

    It might be as speculated - that they are counting on the EU rejecting it, therefore when they do the Brexiters can pursue a hard or no deal brexit from a position of righteousness. After all, they agreed to concede a lot and the EU still said no.

    I think given the immediate reactions May will take a hit at first, and all depends on if the EU suggest it is viable or not. Selling it as harder than the softs would like, and softer than the hards would like, might be enough for the party at least to think it acceptable, but only if the EU plays ball.
    TM's proposal is picking and choosing from the "4 freedoms". The EU should reject it and treat the UK like it treats Russia.
    If the EU reject even this deal then in my view as Tories we would have to accept they do not want a deal and put Mogg, Gove or Boris in as Tory leader and PM and prepare for hard Brexit and WTO terms.

    Of course the EU would have to reflect on tariffs on EU exports to the UK, which will be the EU's biggest export destination post Brexit as well as the tariffs Trump has also slammed on EU exports, the USA being the EU's current largest export destination
    The Telegraph was suggesting yesterday that we threaten to ban German cars completely.
    Expect many more such calls if Barnier and co reject May's proposals
    I'm sure the EU will be quaking at the thought of Telegraph readers bursting a blood vessel.
    Given those Telegraph readers live in the EU's largest export market if they want to ignore it fine
  • Stark_DawningStark_Dawning Posts: 3,536
    When was England's fourth semi-final? (I've got WCs 1966 and 1990 and Euro '96.)
  • Torby_FennelTorby_Fennel Posts: 295
    edited July 7
    SunnyJim said:



    In a literal sense you are correct of course.

    However, I don't think anybody (and especially the MSM) consider a soft-Brexit to be anything other than a wrecking attempt by the EU/Remainer alliance.

    Remainers definately DO own any soft-Brexit...few Leave voters will have had this in mind when they voted.

    A referendum ballot paper is very much like a school exam paper in that:

    i) You must read the questions very carefully
    ii) You must only answer the questions that have actually been asked
    iii) You must not try to answer questions that do not appear on the paper - however much you might wish that something you had studied more had been asked instead.

  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 2,345
    Froome 1 min 1 sec down after crashing today.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 45,124
    tlg86 said:

    Froome in the dirt.

    He's gained time on Quintana and not lost any to Porte. Good day for Nibali, Dumoulin and the field generally, a poor day but not complete disaster for Froome
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 45,124
    HYUFD said:

    brendan16 said:

    Looks like this afternoon might be a really good time to get the supermarket shopping done. :)

    For me, on these occasions, it's not just that I don't care about the football but that I also want to be publicly seen to be not caring about the football.

    I am sure you are not alone in that. If 23 million are estimated to have watched the Colombia match that means up to 42 million didn't which is nearly twice as many!

    But even if you aren't watching or are shopping in your local Tesco it is hard to miss the cheers or groans from local pubs and neighbours unless you live in the country. So you always know it's on!
    Only 3 programmes in UK TV history have got viewers over 30 million, the 1966 world cup final, Princess Diana's funeral and a documentary on the royal family.

    So if England get to the world cup final, of course still a big if, it could get into that top 3

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_most_watched_television_broadcasts
    Dirty Den too !
  • dr_spyndr_spyn Posts: 8,991
    After breaking an arm in early 2010, I drove for the first time during the England Germany match. That day, the Welsh roads were very quiet. Unfortunately, I was still able to hear the radio commentary.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 6,247
    I was right about qualifying being close - six hundredths between Hamilton and Vettel.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 42,885
    edited July 7
    TOPPING said:

    HYUFD said:

    kle4 said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    daodao said:

    kle4 said:

    "Discussions in a literal hot-house."

    Except it wasn't. Chequers is a C16th Manor House and the rooms are actually very cool even during a heatwave.

    And this neatly illustrates the trouble with this article: he eye.

    It might be as speculated - that they are counting on the EU rejecting it, therefore when they do the d no.

    I think given the immediate reactions May will take a hit at first, and all depends on if the EU suggest it is viable or not. Selling it as harder than the softs would like, and softer than the hards would like, might be enough for the party at least to think it acceptable, but only if the EU plays ball.
    TM's proposal is picking and choosing from the "4 freedoms". The EU should reject it and treat the UK like it treats Russia.
    If the EU reject even this deal then in my view as Tories we would have to accept they do not want a deal and put Mogg, Gove or Boris in as Tory leader and PM and prepare for hard Brexit and WTO terms.

    Of course the EU would have to reflect on tariffs on EU exports to the UK, which will be the EU's biggest export destination post Brexit as well as the tariffs Trump has also slammed on EU exports, the USA being the EU's current largest export destination
    If the EU wants a hostile post Brexit UK as well as a hostile Putin's Russia on its borders and a hostile Trump's USA while also coping with the migrant crisis from North Africa and the populist backlash and the tensions within the Eurozone then so be it
    I don't think they do. I think they are gambling we will compromise yet further, so they do not have to, and that at worst in a no deal situation we will be bitter but too damaged for it to matter.
    Except we won't compromise further, the ball is now in the EU's court, they can take it or leave it.

    They are also not be going to be able to replace the UK as their largest export destination overnight
    We account for approx 6% of each EU country's exports (OK, Germany and France which I just googled). The EU accounts for nearly 50% of our exports.
    The EU is far more than just Germany and France, 7% of Spanish exports go to the UK for instance and of course Trump's US is already the EU's current largest export destination and is already slamming tariffs on EU imports, we would end up joining Trump in a trade war with the EU but unlike Trump we would push no or minimal tariffs with the rest of the world. As you say most UK exports now go outside the EU.

    We may also still achieve a FTA with the US post Brexit
  • PClippPClipp Posts: 1,600
    felix said:

    daodao said:

    kle4 said:

    "Discussions in a literal hot-house."

    Except it wasn't. Chequers is a C16th Manor House and the rooms are actually very cool even during a heatwave.

    And this neatly illustrates the trouble with this article: speculation and guesswork. Until or unless ministers leak further details to the Sunday papers we remain in the dark. Something is clearly going on. The fact that Brexiteers (apart from Guido Fawkes, who wasn't present) are so chilled about it all means there's more to this than meets the eye.

    It might be as speculated - that they are counting on the EU rejecting it, therefore when they do the Brexiters can pursue a hard or no deal brexit from a position of righteousness. After all, they agreed to concede a lot and the EU still said no.

    I think given the immediate reactions May will take a hit at first, and all depends on if the EU suggest it is viable or not. Selling it as harder than the softs would like, and softer than the hards would like, might be enough for the party at least to think it acceptable, but only if the EU plays ball.
    TM's proposal is picking and choosing from the "4 freedoms". The EU should reject it and treat the UK like it treats Russia.
    What a bizarre comment. Actually the EU approach to Russia is at best ambivalent. However, the howls form diehards on both sides of the fence suggest Ms. May has played something of a blinder.
    That is the fence dividing the Conservatives from the Conservatives...? Definitely a blinder that one!
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 42,885
    Pulpstar said:

    HYUFD said:

    brendan16 said:

    Looks like this afternoon might be a really good time to get the supermarket shopping done. :)

    For me, on these occasions, it's not just that I don't care about the football but that I also want to be publicly seen to be not caring about the football.

    I am sure you are not alone in that. If 23 million are estimated to have watched the Colombia match that means up to 42 million didn't which is nearly twice as many!

    But even if you aren't watching or are shopping in your local Tesco it is hard to miss the cheers or groans from local pubs and neighbours unless you live in the country. So you always know it's on!
    Only 3 programmes in UK TV history have got viewers over 30 million, the 1966 world cup final, Princess Diana's funeral and a documentary on the royal family.

    So if England get to the world cup final, of course still a big if, it could get into that top 3

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_most_watched_television_broadcasts
    Dirty Den too !
    That was 4th and you are correct just got over 30 million
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 18,622
    Nigelb said:

    I was right about qualifying being close - six hundredths between Hamilton and Vettel.

    44ms at the end, well done Lewis!
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 26,712
    I see your Three Lions and raise you a World in Motion :)

  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 42,885
    edited July 7
    HYUFD said:

    TOPPING said:

    HYUFD said:

    kle4 said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    daodao said:

    kle4 said:

    "Discussions in a literal hot-house."

    Except it wasn't. Chequers is a C16th Manor House and the rooms are actually very cool even during a heatwave.

    And this neatly illustrates the trouble with this article: he eye.

    It might be as speculated - that they are counting on the EU rejecting it, therefore when they do the d no.

    I think given the immediate reactions May will take a hit at first, and all depends on if the EU suggest it is viable or not. Selling it as harder than the softs would like, and softer than the hards would like, might be enough for the party at least to think it acceptable, but only if the EU plays ball.
    TM's proposal is picking and choosing from the "4 freedoms". The EU should reject it and treat the UK like it treats Russia.
    If the EU reject even this deal then in my view as Tories we would have to accept they do not want a deal and put Mogg, Gove or Boris in as Tory leader and PM and prepare for hard Brexit and WTO terms.

    Of course the EU would have to reflect on tariffs on EU exports to the UK, which will be the EU's biggest export destination post Brexit as well as the tariffs Trump has also slammed on EU exports, the USA being the EU's current largest export destination
    If the EU wants a hostile post Brexit UK as well as a hostile ne then so be it
    I don't think they do. I think they are gambling we will compromise yet further, so they do not have to, and that at worst in a no deal situation we will be bitter but too damaged for it to matter.
    Except we won't compromise further, the ball is now in the EU's court, they can take it or leave it.

    They are also not be going to be able to replace the UK as their largest export destination overnight
    We account for approx 6% of each EU country's exports (OK, Germany and France which I just googled). The EU accounts for nearly 50% of our exports.
    The EU is far more than just Germany and France, 7% of Spanish exports go to the UK for instance and of course Trump's US is already the EU's current largest export destination and is already slamming tariffs on EU imports, we would end up joining Trump in a trade war with the EU but unlike Trump we would push no or minimal tariffs with the rest of the world. As you say most UK exports now go outside the EU.

    We may also still achieve a FTA with the US post Brexit
    9% of Dutch exports and 15% of Irish exports and 8% of Danish exports go to the UK too
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 26,712

    When was England's fourth semi-final? (I've got WCs 1966 and 1990 and Euro '96.)

    Next week? Touch wood!
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 6,247
    Sandpit said:

    Nigelb said:

    I was right about qualifying being close - six hundredths between Hamilton and Vettel.

    44ms at the end, well done Lewis!
    Get in there !
    Couldn’t bet against Hamilton at Silverstone.... :smile:
  • AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 22,471
    I hope Colombia are watching to see how football should be played.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 20,000
    HYUFD said:

    It will most likely tell May she has to resign or face a no confidence vote and prepare for No Deal and a Mogg, Boris or Gove or Javid premiership.

  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 42,885

    HYUFD said:

    It will most likely tell May she has to resign or face a no confidence vote and prepare for No Deal and a Mogg, Boris or Gove or Javid premiership.

    On the basis it would be accepted by the EU, if the EU rejects it and demands even more concessions that is a totally different ball game
  • felixfelix Posts: 7,687
    PClipp said:

    felix said:

    daodao said:

    kle4 said:

    "Discussions in a literal hot-house."

    Except it wasn't. Chequers is a C16th Manor House and the rooms are actually very cool even during a heatwave.

    And this neatly illustrates the trouble with this article: speculation and guesswork. Until or unless ministers leak further details to the Sunday papers we remain in the dark. Something is clearly going on. The fact that Brexiteers (apart from Guido Fawkes, who wasn't present) are so chilled about it all means there's more to this than meets the eye.

    It might be as speculated - that they are counting on the EU rejecting it, therefore when they do the Brexiters can pursue a hard or no deal brexit from a position of righteousness. After all, they agreed to concede a lot and the EU still said no.

    I think given the immediate reactions May will take a hit at first, and all depends on if the EU suggest it is viable or not. Selling it as harder than the softs would like, and softer than the hards would like, might be enough for the party at least to think it acceptable, but only if the EU plays ball.
    TM's proposal is picking and choosing from the "4 freedoms". The EU should reject it and treat the UK like it treats Russia.
    What a bizarre comment. Actually the EU approach to Russia is at best ambivalent. However, the howls form diehards on both sides of the fence suggest Ms. May has played something of a blinder.
    That is the fence dividing the Conservatives from the Conservatives...? Definitely a blinder that one!
    You are as usual somewhat confused and maybe a little upset. Go and have a lie down?
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 6,247
    Ferrari’s look quite dangerous for the race, though, with Bottas a bit down in fourth. Raikonnen was ‘unhappy’ with his lap - and only a tenth down on Hamilton.
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 11,808
    AndyJS said:

    I hope Colombia are watching to see how football should be played.

    Hmm.

    '15 mins
    Post update

    Sweden 0-0 England

    As dull a 15 minutes as you will have seen at the World Cup.'
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 26,712

    HYUFD said:

    It will most likely tell May she has to resign or face a no confidence vote and prepare for No Deal and a Mogg, Boris or Gove or Javid premiership.

    That's the look
    That's the look
    That's the look
    The look of Gove
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 6,247
    Sterling looking a bit sharper than of late; Trippier a bit uninspired on the right.
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 26,712

    AndyJS said:

    I hope Colombia are watching to see how football should be played.

    Hmm.

    '15 mins
    Post update

    Sweden 0-0 England

    As dull a 15 minutes as you will have seen at the World Cup.'
    20 mins
    CLOSE!

    Sweden 0-0 England

    Sweden have only conceded twice at the World Cup, both to Germany - but there's a shot!

    Raheem Sterling runs it well from deep, it finds Harry Kane central, about 22 yards wide, and he shoots low but just wide.
  • surbysurby Posts: 728
    AndyJS said:

    I hope Colombia are watching to see how football should be played.

    You mean by not playing at all!
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 18,622
    edited July 7
    Nigelb said:

    Ferrari’s look quite dangerous for the race, though, with Bottas a bit down in fourth. Raikonnen was ‘unhappy’ with his lap - and only a tenth down on Hamilton.

    Lewis was in tears at the end, talking to Martin Brundle on the grid. I think the crowd made the difference. At 280kph as they cross the line, .044” is 3.38m, less than a car’s length.

    Red cars definitely looking dangerous for tomorrow, hopefully Bottas can get among them off the start. All set up for a great race tomorrow, I’m now kicking myself that I couldn’t make it back to watch - even the weather is good!
This discussion has been closed.