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politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » The fly in the ointment? How Brexit may be delayed by no deal

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  • another_richardanother_richard Posts: 24,968
    Re Thailand

    I suggest that the Thai authorities blow up the entrance to the caves afterwards.

    If not there will be endless numbers of thrill seekers getting themselves into trouble attempting to make YouTube videos.
  • NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 21,265

    Pulpstar said:

    Sean_F said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Two boys rescued

    Excellent news. But, I can't help thinking their coach should be prosecuted.
    Well he needs to be rescued himself before any decision on that is made.
    And the other ten boys...
    Four more near the entrance
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 60,004

    Elliot said:

    These people are idiots. They genuinely can't accept a deal where they get 90% of what they want.
    They’re running the risk of getting 0%....
    They will lose by a big margin
  • AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 30,340
    You can always tell when Brexit seems to be going particularly badly because the more intense Leavers start talking about independence as if Britain were currently some kind of oppressed nation.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 66,769
    Four confirmed out now, apparently the weakest/sickest. Rumours two more are out as well.

    This is definitely encouraging although there is a long way to go.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,719
    edited July 2018

    Finally for what it's worth I actually think the Headbangers are right on this one. All Brexit has going for it is that it won the Referendum and that sonething called Brexit hasn't happened yet. The referendum result is already 2 + years old and been superceeded by a GE. Something called Brexit will happen next March. Chequers clearly sets up a sui generis UK/EU supranational structure locking us substantially into the socioeconomic eurosphere. If we are conceeding that now why will it get any better for them 3, 5, 10 years after the referendum ? Or after something called Brexit has happened and the referendum result " delivered " ?

    And of course Chequers isn't going to happen. The EU will rightly laugh it out of court. It's only an opening negotiating position to be watered down in due course. And as power flows back to parliament ( professional politicans ) as the refetendum result chronologically decays the Vassal State argument increases. Even thinking comitted leavers on my twitter are saying it openly. If we can'tleaveproperly, and we can't, it would be better to stay. Politians are vain and like being in the room whete the decisions are made.

    I actually think a certain sort of leaver is quite right strategically to try and blow Chequers up. It's now or never.

    The position of the hard Brexiteers is truly dire. Given that Chequers has the endorsement of the cabinet, blowing it up and putting in a new leader wouldn't resurrect the mandate of 2016 for something harder and they'd be left with the same dilemma as May. Their only option would be to install a Hard Brexit leader and call a General Election which risks a Corbyn government with a healthy majority.
    Wrong on both counts.

    Even Survation's poll today would still leave Corbyn well short of a majority and reliant on minor parties to get into and stay in power and the most popular alternative Tory to succeed May amongst the public in the same poll? Jacob Rees Mogg, the hardest of hard Brexiteers.

    On balance I support May's deal and any Corbyn deal with the EU would match it almost exactly but to suggest there is overwhelming opposition to hard Brexit amongst the voters is not supported by the current polls
  • rural_voterrural_voter Posts: 2,038

    Finally for what it's worth I actually think the Headbangers are right on this one. All Brexit has going for it is that it won the Referendum and that sonething called Brexit hasn't happened yet. The referendum result is already 2 + years old and been superceeded by a GE. Something called Brexit will happen next March. Chequers clearly sets up a sui generis UK/EU supranational structure locking us substantially into the socioeconomic eurosphere. If we are conceeding that now why will it get any better for them 3, 5, 10 years after the referendum ? Or after something called Brexit has happened and the referendum result " delivered " ?

    And of course Chequers isn't going to happen. The EU will rightly laugh it out of court. It's only an opening negotiating position to be watered down in due course. And as power flows back to parliament ( professional politicans ) as the refetendum result chronologically decays the Vassal State argument increases. Even thinking comitted leavers on my twitter are saying it openly. If we can'tleaveproperly, and we can't, it would be better to stay. Politians are vain and like being in the room whete the decisions are made.

    I actually think a certain sort of leaver is quite right strategically to try and blow Chequers up. It's now or never.

    The position of the hard Brexiteers is truly dire. Given that Chequers has the endorsement of the cabinet, blowing it up and putting in a new leader wouldn't resurrect the mandate of 2016 for something harder and they'd be left with the same dilemma as May. Their only option would be to install a Hard Brexit leader and call a General Election which risks a Corbyn government with a healthy majority.
    I think the only outcome which would deliver the further plebiscite needed to ratify a national change of mind is a Lib-Lab pact. So let's hope it's only a small swing away from May.
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 60,004
    HYUFD said:

    Finally for what it's worth I actually think the Headbangers are right on this one. All Brexit has going for it is that it won the Referendum and that sonething called Brexit hasn't happened yet. The referendum result is already 2 + years old and been superceeded by a GE. Something called Brexit will happen next March. Chequers clearly sets up a sui generis UK/EU supranational structure locking us substantially into the socioeconomic eurosphere. If we are conceeding that now why will it get any better for them 3, 5, 10 years after the referendum ? Or after something called Brexit has happened and the referendum result " delivered " ?

    And of course Chequers isn't going to happen. The EU will rightly laugh it out of court. It's only an opening negotiating position to be watered down in due course. And as power flows back to parliament ( professional politicans ) as the refetendum result chronologically decays the Vassal State argument increases. Even thinking comitted leavers on my twitter are saying it openly. If we can'tleaveproperly, and we can't, it would be better to stay. Politians are vain and like being in the room whete the decisions are made.

    I actually think a certain sort of leaver is quite right strategically to try and blow Chequers up. It's now or never.

    The position of the hard Brexiteers is truly dire. Given that Chequers has the endorsement of the cabinet, blowing it up and putting in a new leader wouldn't resurrect the mandate of 2016 for something harder and they'd be left with the same dilemma as May. Their only option would be to install a Hard Brexit leader and call a General Election which risks a Corbyn government with a healthy majority.
    Wrong on both counts.

    Even Survation's poll today would still leave Corbyn well short of a majority and reliant on minor parties to get into and stay in power and the most popular alternative Tory to succeed May amongst the public in the same poll? Jacob Rees Mogg, the hardest of hard Brexiteers.

    On balance I support May's deal and any Corbyn deal with the EU would match it almost exactly but to suggest there is overwhelming opposition to hard Brexit amongst the voters is not supported by the current polls
    But Parliament will stop any hard Brexit and more than likely the Brexiteers hopes will be gone for good. They need to get behind TM as Gove did today
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 66,769
    Hamilton out(?) after a shunt with Raikonnen.

    Or at least, running last while Vettel laughs all the way to the lead.
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 60,004
    HYUFD said:

    Finally for what it's worth I actually think the Headbangers are right on this one. All Brexit has going for it is that it won the Referendum and that sonething called Brexit hasn't happened yet. The referendum result is already 2 + years old and been superceeded by a GE. Something called Brexit will happen next March. Chequers clearly sets up a sui generis UK/EU supranational structure locking us substantially into the socioeconomic eurosphere. If we are conceeding that now why will it get any better for them 3, 5, 10 years after the referendum ? Or after something called Brexit has happened and the referendum result " delivered " ?

    And of course Chequers isn't going to happen. The EU will rightly laugh it out of court. It's only an opening negotiating position to be watered down in due course. And as power flows back to parliament ( professional politicans ) as the refetendum result chronologically decays the Vassal State argument increases. Even thinking comitted leavers on my twitter are saying it openly. If we can'tleaveproperly, and we can't, it would be better to stay. Politians are vain and like being in the room whete the decisions are made.

    I actually think a certain sort of leaver is quite right strategically to try and blow Chequers up. It's now or never.

    The position of the hard Brexiteers is truly dire. Given that Chequers has the endorsement of the cabinet, blowing it up and putting in a new leader wouldn't resurrect the mandate of 2016 for something harder and they'd be left with the same dilemma as May. Their only option would be to install a Hard Brexit leader and call a General Election which risks a Corbyn government with a healthy majority.
    Wrong on both counts.

    Even Survation's poll today would still leave Corbyn well short of a majority and reliant on minor parties to get into and stay in power and the most popular alternative Tory to succeed May amongst the public in the same poll? Jacob Rees Mogg, the hardest of hard Brexiteers.

    On balance I support May's deal and any Corbyn deal with the EU would match it almost exactly but to suggest there is overwhelming opposition to hard Brexit amongst the voters is not supported by the current polls
    Re JRM I do not see him getting through to the last two, indeed the way the hard Brexiteers are behaving it is almost certain a Brexiteer will not see the light of day
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    God alone knows how how the World Cup now plays out politically. If we win the country will want to talk about nothing else for months. The driving underground of internal debate on Brexit will both help and hinder. It may free some politicans to make behind the scenes compromises with less intense press scrutiny. But it will also allow voters to tune out of a topic they are bored of rather than come to terms with reduced Cake rations.

    But the M25 ?

    And what would inflamed, empowered and vindicated english exceptionalism do to our fraying Union ? All the clever scottish unionists on my twitter feed seem to have spotted the danger but are for obvious reasons being very coded.

    An England victory will be very strange politically. Changing the subject of national conversation for months, a welcome lift to most people's spirits, sucking the oxygen from every other topic. Yet rocket fuel for many other forces shaping our politics. English exceptionalism globally, english domination of the UK Union, ( Three ) Lions compared to our Donkey Leaders, the debate over national pride, tabloid culture and ' going alone '.

    " It's ( control ) is coming home. 45 years of hurt.

    If England alone.

    Don't forget either England voted about 55% Leave 45% Remain so a rather more decisive result than the 52% Leave 48% Remain across the UK

    English many minds.

    Most people have no problem with immigrants with skill and talent as this English team undoubtedly has, it is unskilled immigration they have a problem with

    The current England team is made up of Englishmen. But the parents and grandparents of many of them were unskilled immigrants. That was my point.

    How do you know they were unskilled? Many if not most of the Windrush generation were reasonably skilled. Harry Kane of course is as English as they come. However all the polling shows it is unskilled immigration voters want tightened up they are less concerned about skilled immigration.

    It was of course your man Blair's failure to impose transition controls on free movement from the new accession countries in 2004 unlike most EU nations which exacerbated the problem and played a pivotal role in the Leave win

    Harry Kane's granddad was Irish, which probably does make him as English as they come, of course! I am not sure you could call the Windrush generation skilled. They came to the UK to do manual jobs.

    Manual jobs are not all unskilled you snob!
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 47,789
    edited July 2018
    HYUFD said:

    Finally for what it's worth I actually think the Headbangers are right on this one. All Brexit has going for it is that it won the Referendum and that sonething called Brexit hasn't happened yet. The referendum result is already 2 + years old and been superceeded by a GE. Something called Brexit will happen next March. Chequers clearly sets up a sui generis UK/EU supranational structure locking us substantially into the socioeconomic eurosphere. If we are conceeding that now why will it get any better for them 3, 5, 10 years after the referendum ? Or after something called Brexit has happened and the referendum result " delivered " ?

    And of course Chequers isn't going to happen. The EU will rightly laugh it out of court. It's only an opening negotiating position to be watered down in due course. And as power flows back to parliament ( professional politicans ) as the refetendum result chronologically decays the Vassal State argument increases. Even thinking comitted leavers on my twitter are saying it openly. If we can'tleaveproperly, and we can't, it would be better to stay. Politians are vain and like being in the room whete the decisions are made.

    I actually think a certain sort of leaver is quite right strategically to try and blow Chequers up. It's now or never.

    The position of the hard Brexiteers is truly dire. Given that Chequers has the endorsement of the cabinet, blowing it up and putting in a new leader wouldn't resurrect the mandate of 2016 for something harder and they'd be left with the same dilemma as May. Their only option would be to install a Hard Brexit leader and call a General Election which risks a Corbyn government with a healthy majority.
    Wrong on both counts.

    Even Survation's poll today would still leave Corbyn well short of a majority and reliant on minor parties to get into and stay in power and the most popular alternative Tory to succeed May amongst the public in the same poll? Jacob Rees Mogg, the hardest of hard Brexiteers.

    On balance I support May's deal and any Corbyn deal with the EU would match it almost exactly but to suggest there is overwhelming opposition to hard Brexit amongst the voters is not supported by the current polls
    You call him the "most popular alternative" on the basis of a poll that shows he would lose votes for the Conservatives??
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 60,004

    HYUFD said:

    Finally for what it's worth I actually think the Headbangers are right on this one. All Brexit has going for it is that it won the Referendum and that sonething called Brexit hasn't happened yet. The referendum result is already 2 + years old and been superceeded by a GE. Something called Brexit will happen next March. Chequers clearly sets up a sui generis UK/EU supranational structure locking us substantially into the socioeconomic eurosphere. If we are conceeding that now why will it get any better for them 3, 5, 10 years after the referendum ? Or after something called Brexit has happened and the referendum result " delivered " ?

    And of course Chequers isn't going to happen. The EU will rightly laugh it out of court. It's only an opening negotiating position to be watered down in due course. And as power flows back to parliament ( professional politicans ) as the refetendum result chronologically decays the Vassal State argument increases. Even thinking comitted leavers on my twitter are saying it openly. If we can'tleaveproperly, and we can't, it would be better to stay. Politians are vain and like being in the room whete the decisions are made.

    I actually think a certain sort of leaver is quite right strategically to try and blow Chequers up. It's now or never.

    The position of the hard Brexiteers is truly dire. Given that Chequers has the endorsement of the cabinet, blowing it up and putting in a new leader wouldn't resurrect the mandate of 2016 for something harder and they'd be left with the same dilemma as May. Their only option would be to install a Hard Brexit leader and call a General Election which risks a Corbyn government with a healthy majority.
    Wrong on both counts.

    Even Survation's poll today would still leave Corbyn well short of a majority and reliant on minor parties to get into and stay in power and the most popular alternative Tory to succeed May amongst the public in the same poll? Jacob Rees Mogg, the hardest of hard Brexiteers.

    On balance I support May's deal and any Corbyn deal with the EU would match it almost exactly but to suggest there is overwhelming opposition to hard Brexit amongst the voters is not supported by the current polls
    Yo call him the "most popular alternative" on the basis of a poll that shows he would lose votes for the Conservatives??
    If the party was led by JRM I would resign my membership
  • SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 38,879
    Sean_F said:

    Elliot said:

    These people are idiots. They genuinely can't accept a deal where they get 90% of what they want.
    The ERG is very cogent about what is wrong with the various plans for Brexit, but has never provided an alternative that is acceptable to the Commons or the EU.

    That would involve having to learn about how the EU works, supply chains, the links between goods and services, WTO rules, the Irish border and a whole lot more. In short, it’s a bit too much like hard work. Not being arsed to do the hard yards was always going to be a problem and so it has proved. You cannot wing it forever.

  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 60,004
    It is but the vote was to leave. Changing May will not change the reality
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,719

    HYUFD said:

    Finally for what it's worth I actually think the Headbangers are right on this one. All Brexit has going for it is that it won the Referendum and that sonething called Brexit hasn't happened yet. The referendum result is already 2 + years old and been superceeded by a GE. Something called Brexit will happen next March. Chequers clearly sets up a sui generis UK/EU supranational structure locking us substantially into the socioeconomic eurosphere. If we are conceeding that now why will it get any better for them 3, made.

    I actually think a certain sort of leaver is quite right strategically to try and blow Chequers up. It's now or never.

    The position of the hard Brexiteers is truly dire. Given that Chequers has the endorsement of the cabinet, blowing it up and putting in a new leader wouldn't resurrect the mandate of 2016 for something harder and they'd be left with the same dilemma as May. Their only option would be to install a Hard Brexit leader and call a General Election which risks a Corbyn government with a healthy majority.
    Wrong on both counts.

    Even Survation's poll today would still leave Corbyn well short of a majority and reliant on minor parties to get into and stay in power and the most popular alternative Tory to succeed May amongst the public in the same poll? Jacob Rees Mogg, the hardest of hard Brexiteers.

    On balance I support May's deal and any Corbyn deal with the EU would match it almost exactly but to suggest there is overwhelming opposition to hard Brexit amongst the voters is not supported by the current polls
    You call him the "most popular alternative" on the basis of a poll that shows he would lose votes for the Conservatives??
    No it shows he has both the highest number of voters saying the would be more likely to vote Tory under him and the lowest number of voters net saying they would be less likely to vote Tory under him including more and less likely. The poll included former Remain backers like Hunt and Javid and Williamson as well as Leave backers like Gove, Boris and Mourdaunt and Mogg polled better than all of them.

    Remember too before Corbyn became leader more voters net said they would be less likely to vote Labour under Corbyn but Corbyn still did best amongst those saying they would be more likely to vote Labour under him. Sometimes if you enthuse your base to turnout it matters less if the rest of the electorate hate you
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,719

    HYUFD said:

    Finally for what it's worth I actually think the Headbangers are right on this one. All Brexit has going for it is that it won the Referendum and that sonething called Brexit hasn't happened yet. The referendum result is already 2 + years old and been superceeded by a GE. Something called Brexit will happen next March. Chequers clearly sets up a sui generis UK/EU supranational structure locking us substantially into the socioeconomic eurosphere. If we are conceeding that now why will it get any better for them 3, 5, 10 years after the referendum ? Or after something called Brexit has happened and the referendum result " delivered " ?

    And of course Chequers isn't going to happen. The EU will rightly laugh it out of court. It's only an opening negotiating position to be watered down in due course. And as power flows back to parliament ( professional politicans ) as the refetendum result chronologically decays the Vassal State argument increases. Even thinking comitted leavers on my twitter are saying it openly. If we can'tleaveproperly, and we can't, it would be better to stay. Politians are vain and like being in the room whete the decisions are made.

    I actually think a certain sort of leaver is quite right strategically to try and blow Chequers up. It's now or never.

    The position of the hard Brexiteers is truly dire. Given that Chequers has the endorsement of the cabinet, blowing it up and putting in a new leader wouldn't resurrect the mandate of 2016 for something harder and they'd be left with the same dilemma as May. Their only option would be to install a Hard Brexit leader and call a General Election which risks a Corbyn government with a healthy majority.
    Wrong on both counts.

    Even Survation's poll today would still leave Corbyn well short of a majority and reliant on minor parties to get into and stay in power and the most popular alternative Tory to succeed May amongst the public in the same poll? Jacob Rees Mogg, the hardest of hard Brexiteers.

    On balance I support May's deal and any Corbyn deal with the EU would match it almost exactly but to suggest there is overwhelming opposition to hard Brexit amongst the voters is not supported by the current polls
    But Parliament will stop any hard Brexit and more than likely the Brexiteers hopes will be gone for good. They need to get behind TM as Gove did today
    This Parliament maybe, if the EU accepts this deal
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,719

    HYUFD said:

    Finally for what it's worth I actually think the Headbangers are right on this one. All Brexit has going for it is that it won the Referendum and that sonething called Brexit hasn't happened yet. The referendum result is already 2 + years old and been superceeded by a GE. Something called Brexit will happen next March. Chequers clearly sets up a sui generis UK/EU supranational structure locking us substantially into the socioeconomic eurosphere. If we are conceeding that now why will it get any better for them 3, 5, 10 years after the referendum ? Or after something called Brexit has happened and the referendum result " delivered " ?

    And of course Chequers isn't going to happen. The EU will rightly laugh it out of court. It's only an opening negotiating position to be watered down in due course. And as power flows back to parliament ( professional politicans ) as the refetendum result chronologically decays the Vassal State argument increases. Even thinking comitted leavers on my twitter are saying it openly. If we can'tleaveproperly, and we can't, it would be better to stay. Politians are vain and like being in the room whete the decisions are made.

    I actually think a certain sort of leaver is quite right strategically to try and blow Chequers up. It's now or never.

    The position of the hard Brexiteers is truly dire. Given that Chequers has the endorsement of the cabinet, blowing it up and putting in a new leader wouldn't resurrect the mandate of 2016 for something harder and they'd be left with the same dilemma as May. Their only option would be to install a Hard Brexit leader and call a General Election which risks a Corbyn government with a healthy majority.
    Wrong on both counts.

    Even Survation's poll today would still leave Corbyn well short of a majority and reliant on minor parties to get into and stay in power and the most popular alternative Tory to succeed May amongst the public in the same poll? Jacob Rees Mogg, the hardest of hard Brexiteers.

    On balance I support May's deal and any Corbyn deal with the EU would match it almost exactly but to suggest there is overwhelming opposition to hard Brexit amongst the voters is not supported by the current polls
    Re JRM I do not see him getting through to the last two, indeed the way the hard Brexiteers are behaving it is almost certain a Brexiteer will not see the light of day
    Oh a Brexiteer will definitely be in the final 2, even IDS and Leadsom managed it
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 60,004
    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Finally for what it's worth I actually think the Headbangers are right on this one. All Brexit has going for it is that it won the Referendum and that sonething called Brexit hasn't happened yet. The referendum result is already 2 + years old and been superceeded by a GE. Something called Brexit will happen next March. Chequers clearly sets up a sui generis UK/EU supranational structure locking us substantially into the socioeconomic eurosphere. If we are conceeding that now why will it get any better for them 3, made.

    I actually think a certain sort of leaver is quite right strategically to try and blow Chequers up. It's now or never.

    The position of the hard Brexiteers is truly dire. Given that Chequers has the endorsement of the cabinet, blowing it up and putting in a new leader wouldn't resurrect the mandate of 2016 for something harder and they'd be left with the same dilemma as May. Their only option would be to install a Hard Brexit leader and call a General Election which risks a Corbyn government with a healthy majority.
    Wrong on both counts.

    Even Survation's poll today would still leave Corbyn well short of a majority and reliant on minor parties to get into and stay in power and the most popular alternative Tory to succeed May amongst the public in the same poll? Jacob Rees Mogg, the hardest of hard Brexiteers.

    On balance I support May's deal and any Corbyn deal with the EU would match it almost exactly but to suggest there is overwhelming opposition to hard Brexit amongst the voters is not supported by the current polls
    You call him the "most popular alternative" on the basis of a poll that shows he would lose votes for the Conservatives??
    No it shows he has both the highest number of voters saying the would be more likely to vote Tory under him and the lowest number of voters net saying they would be less likely to vote Tory under him including more and less likely. The poll included former Remain backers like Hunt and Javid and Williamson as well as Leave backers like Gove, Boris and Mourdaunt and Mogg polled better than all of them.

    Remember too before Corbyn became leader more voters net said they would be less likely to vote Labour under Corbyn but Corbyn still did best amongst those saying they would be more likely to vote Labour under him. Sometimes if you enthuse your base to turnout it matters less if the rest of the electorate hate you
    Out of a poll a poll of 900 odd. The hard Brexiteers are lethal for business and it is either this compromise or we stay in or I resign my membership
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,719

    HYUFD said:

    Finally for what it's worth I actually think the Headbangers are right on this one. All Brexit has going for it is that it won the Referendum and that sonething called Brexit hasn't happened yet. The referendum result is already 2 + years old and been superceeded by a GE. Something called Brexit will happen next March. Chequers clearly sets up a sui generis UK/EU supranational structure locking us substantially into the socioeconomic eurosphere. If we are conceeding that now why will it get any better for them 3, 5, 10 years after the referendum ? Or after something called Brexit has happened and the referendum result " delivered " ?

    And of course Chequers isn't going to happen. The EU will rightly laugh it out of court. It's only an opening negotiating position to be watered down in due course. And as power flows back to parliament ( professional politicans ) as the refetendum result chronologically decays the Vassal State argument increases. Even thinking comitted leavers on my twitter are saying it openly. If we can'tleaveproperly, and we can't, it would be better to stay. Politians are vain and like being in the room whete the decisions are made.

    I actually think a certain sort of leaver is quite right strategically to try and blow Chequers up. It's now or never.

    The position of the hard Brexiteers is truly dire. Given that Chequers has the endorsement of the cabinet, blowing it up and putting in a new leader wouldn't resurrect the mandate of 2016 for something harder and they'd be left with the same dilemma as May. Their only option would be to install a Hard Brexit leader and call a General Election which risks a Corbyn government with a healthy majority.
    Wrong on both counts.

    Even Survation's poll today would still leave Corbyn well short of a majority and reliant on minor parties to get into and stay in power and the most popular alternative Tory to succeed May amongst the public in the same poll? Jacob Rees Mogg, the hardest of hard Brexiteers.

    On balance I support May's deal and any Corbyn deal with the EU would match it almost exactly but to suggest there is overwhelming opposition to hard Brexit amongst the voters is not supported by the current polls
    Yo call him the "most popular alternative" on the basis of a poll that shows he would lose votes for the Conservatives??
    If the party was led by JRM I would resign my membership
    Fair enough but you did vote New Labour in 2001 and Remain in 2016 so are very much on the left of the party much as I respect you
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 60,004
    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Finally for what it's worth I actually think the Headbangers are right on this one. All Brexit has going for it is that it won the Referendum and that sonething called Brexit hasn't happened yet. The referendum result is already 2 + years old and been superceeded by a GE. Something called Brexit will happen next March. Chequers clearly sets up a sui generis UK/EU supranational structure locking us substantially into the socioeconomic eurosphere. If we are conceeding that now why will it get any better for them 3, 5, 10 years after the referendum ? Or after something called Brexit has happened and the referendum result " delivered "

    I actually think a certain sort of leaver is quite right strategically to try and blow Chequers up. It's now or never.

    The position of the hard Brexiteers is truly dire. Given that Chequers has the endorsement of the cabinet, blowing it up and putting in a new leader wouldn't resurrect the mandate of 2016 for something harder and they'd be left with the same dilemma as May. Their only option would be to install a Hard Brexit leader and call a General Election which risks a Corbyn government with a healthy majority.
    Wrong on both counts.

    Even Survation's poll today would still leave Corbyn well short of a majority and reliant on minor parties to get into and stay in power and the most popular alternative Tory to succeed May amongst the public in the same poll? Jacob Rees Mogg, the hardest of hard Brexiteers.

    On balance I support May's deal and any Corbyn deal with the EU would match it almost exactly but to suggest there is overwhelming opposition to hard Brexit amongst the voters is not supported by the current polls
    Yo call him the "most popular alternative" on the basis of a poll that shows he would lose votes for the Conservatives??
    If the party was led by JRM I would resign my membership
    Fair enough but you did vote New Labour in 2001 and Remain in 2016 so are very much on the left of the party much as I respect you
    Well I am not prepared to see my son in law and 40,000 Welsh Airbus jobs put under threat or indeed our main manufacturing businesses. As a matter of interest I voted for Blair in 1997 and 2001 and would vote again for a party that was committed to jobs and trade, and not dogma. Indeed I am fairly much with TM politics and only wish she had more charisma
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 60,004
    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Finally for what it's worth I actually think the Headbangers are right on this one. All Brexit has going for it is that it won the Referendum and that sonething called Brexit hasn't happened yet. The referendum result is already 2 + years old and been superceeded by a GE. Something called Brexit will happen next March. Chequers clearly sets up a sui generis UK/EU supranational structure locking us substantially into the socioeconomic eurosphere. If we are conceeding that now why will it get any better for them 3, 5, 10 years after the referendum ? Or after something called Brexit has happened and the referendum result " delivered " ?

    And of course Chequers isn't going to happen. The EU will rightly laugh it out of court. It's only an opening negotiating position to be watered down in due course. And as power flows back to parliament ( professional politicans ) as the refetendum result chronologically decays the Vassal State argument increases. Even thinking comitted leavers on my twitter are saying it openly. If we can'tleaveproperly, and we can't, it would be better to stay. Politians are vain and like being in the room whete the decisions are made.

    I actually think a certain sort of leaver is quite right strategically to try and blow Chequers up. It's now or never.

    The position of the hard Brexiteers is truly dire. Given that Chequers has the endorsement of the cabinet, blowing it up and putting in a new leader wouldn't resurrect the mandate of 2016 for something harder and they'd be left with the same dilemma as May. Their only option would be to install a Hard Brexit leader and call a General Election which risks a Corbyn government with a healthy majority.
    Wrong on both counts.

    Even Survation's poll today would still leave Corbyn well short of a majority and reliant on minor parties to get into and stay in power and the most popular alternative Tory to succeed May amongst the public in the same poll? Jacob Rees Mogg, the hardest of hard Brexiteers.

    On balance I support May's deal and any Corbyn deal with the EU would match it almost exactly but to suggest there is overwhelming opposition to hard Brexit amongst the voters is not supported by the current polls
    Re JRM I do not see him getting through to the last two, indeed the way the hard Brexiteers are behaving it is almost certain a Brexiteer will not see the light of day
    Oh a Brexiteer will definitely be in the final 2, even IDS and Leadsom managed it
    Not certain if they cause an unnecessary schism
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,719

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Finally for what it's worth I actually think the Headbangers are right on this one. All Brexit has going for it is that it won the Referendum and that sonething called Brexit hasn't happened yet. The referendum result is already 2 + years old and been superceeded by a GE. Something called Brexit will happen next March. Chequers clearly sets up a sui generis UK/EU supranational structure locking us substantially into the socioeconomic eurosphere. If we are conceeding that now why will it get any better for them 3, 5, 10 years after the referendum ? Or after something called Brexit has happened and the referendum result " delivered "

    I actually think a certain sort of leaver is quite right strategically to try and blow Chequers up. It's now or never.

    The position of the hard Brexiteers is truly dire. Given that Chequers has the endorsement of the cabinet, blowing it up and putting in a new leader wouldn't resurrect the mandate of 2016 for something harder and they'd be left with the same dilemma as May. Their only option would be to install a Hard Brexit leader and call a General Election which risks a Corbyn government with a healthy majority.
    Wrong on both counts.

    Even Survation's poll today would still leave Corbyn well short of a majority and reliant on minor parties to get into and stay in power and the most popular alternative Tory to succeed May amongst the public in the same poll? Jacob Rees Mogg, the hardest of hard Brexiteers.

    On balance I support May's deal and any Corbyn deal with the EU would match it almost exactly but to suggest there is overwhelming opposition to hard Brexit amongst the voters is not supported by the current polls
    Yo call him the "most popular alternative" on the basis of a poll that shows he would lose votes for the Conservatives??
    If the party was led by JRM I would resign my membership
    Fair enough but you did vote New Labour in 2001 and Remain in 2016 so are very much on the left of the party much as I respect you
    Well I am not prepared to see my son in law and 40,000 Welsh Airbus jobs put under threat or indeed our main manufacturing businesses. As a matter of interest I voted for Blair in 1997 and 2001 and would vote again for a party that was committed to jobs and trade, and not dogma. Indeed I am fairly much with TM politics and only wish she had more charisma
    If you wish to vote LD say in a Mogg v Corbyn general election fair enough, they would probably represent your views more but clearly Mogg is gaining support with Tory Leavers
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 47,789
    HYUFD said:

    If you wish to vote LD say in a Mogg v Corbyn general election fair enough, they would probably represent your views more but clearly Mogg is gaining support with Tory Leavers

    Out of curiosity, how do you think IDS would have done in a General Election? Would the public have warmed to the quiet man?
  • NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 21,265
    I see Trump has claimed a share of the credit for the Thai rescue - says his government has been working closely with Thailand to achieve it.

    Fair enough if true, but...odd he didn't mention it before.
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 48,928

    HYUFD said:

    If you wish to vote LD say in a Mogg v Corbyn general election fair enough, they would probably represent your views more but clearly Mogg is gaining support with Tory Leavers

    Out of curiosity, how do you think IDS would have done in a General Election? Would the public have warmed to the quiet man?
    IDS NEVER lost a General Election as leader :)
  • ThomasNasheThomasNashe Posts: 4,922

    I see Trump has claimed a share of the credit for the Thai rescue - says his government has been working closely with Thailand to achieve it.

    Fair enough if true, but...odd he didn't mention it before.

    He's been busy on this in between giving advice to Gareth Southgate on team tactics ...
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,719

    HYUFD said:

    If you wish to vote LD say in a Mogg v Corbyn general election fair enough, they would probably represent your views more but clearly Mogg is gaining support with Tory Leavers

    Out of curiosity, how do you think IDS would have done in a General Election? Would the public have warmed to the quiet man?
    I think he would have done about as well as Michael Howard did and gained seats from Labour, yes.

    Although I don't think he would have beaten Blair in 2005 I think IDS would certainly have cut Blair's majority
  • OblitusSumMeOblitusSumMe Posts: 9,143

    I see Trump has claimed a share of the credit for the Thai rescue - says his government has been working closely with Thailand to achieve it.

    Fair enough if true, but...odd he didn't mention it before.

    This is one of the things I really don't understand about Trump supporters. I would have thought that this sort of behaviour of claiming credit for other people's hard work and heroism would really put them off. I just can't understand why they're still swallowing the bullshit.
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 60,004

    HYUFD said:

    If you wish to vote LD say in a Mogg v Corbyn general election fair enough, they would probably represent your views more but clearly Mogg is gaining support with Tory Leavers

    Out of curiosity, how do you think IDS would have done in a General Election? Would the public have warmed to the quiet man?
    I am astonished that HYUFD should just dismiss a fellow conservative supporter to go and vote LD's because I object to the hard Brexiteers and JRM.

    I have had many years, and several election campaigns, supporting Welsh Conservative MPs, and helping them to get elected, and who would be horrified at the anti business nonsense being put forward by some and could not even imagine their reaction if they had heard a conservative Foreign Secretary suggest business should 'F..k off. That was the moment I turned against the Brexiteers, especially as my son in law and 40,000 jobs depend on Airbus, and hope that my party can survive with sensible pro business MP's and do a deal in Europe that satisfy's the referendum but is wholly business friendly. I have never voted LD and do not intend doing so anytime soon but I will fight for sanity of my party
  • another_richardanother_richard Posts: 24,968

    I see Trump has claimed a share of the credit for the Thai rescue - says his government has been working closely with Thailand to achieve it.

    Fair enough if true, but...odd he didn't mention it before.

    I thought Elon Musk's publicity seeking was rather bad taste:

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-44735412
  • YorkcityYorkcity Posts: 4,382
    May has done well , this weekend over Brexit.Hope it continues.
    She is starting to think , what is best for the country, and not just the Conservative Party.
  • another_richardanother_richard Posts: 24,968
    Today's Tesco Strawberry score is a seven:

    Aberdeenshire
    Perthshire
    Lancashire
    Staffordshire
    Cambridgeshire
    Herefordshire
    Kent

    A low scoring week overall, I do wonder if the hot, dry weather is reducing some sources of supply.
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 60,004
    edited July 2018
    Yorkcity said:

    May has done well , this weekend over Brexit.Hope it continues.
    She is starting to think , what is best for the country, and not just the Conservative Party.
    I wish my fellow conservatives would do the same and stop this utter nonsense of trying to depose TM and create an internal schism
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 49,614
    No safety car bet down the pan.
  • DecrepitJohnLDecrepitJohnL Posts: 13,300
    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    If you wish to vote LD say in a Mogg v Corbyn general election fair enough, they would probably represent your views more but clearly Mogg is gaining support with Tory Leavers

    Out of curiosity, how do you think IDS would have done in a General Election? Would the public have warmed to the quiet man?
    I think he would have done about as well as Michael Howard did and gained seats from Labour, yes.

    Although I don't think he would have beaten Blair in 2005 I think IDS would certainly have cut Blair's majority
    IDS did unexpectedly well at the ballot box before falling to plotters who probably expected wipe-out. Arguably IDS was the Tory Jeremy Corbyn -- lousy at PMQs so ill-regarded by his own backbenchers yet respected as authentic by ordinary voters putting crosses on bits of paper.
  • another_richardanother_richard Posts: 24,968

    HYUFD said:

    If you wish to vote LD say in a Mogg v Corbyn general election fair enough, they would probably represent your views more but clearly Mogg is gaining support with Tory Leavers

    Out of curiosity, how do you think IDS would have done in a General Election? Would the public have warmed to the quiet man?
    I am astonished that HYUFD should just dismiss a fellow conservative supporter to go and vote LD's because I object to the hard Brexiteers and JRM.

    I have had many years, and several election campaigns, supporting Welsh Conservative MPs, and helping them to get elected, and who would be horrified at the anti business nonsense being put forward by some and could not even imagine their reaction if they had heard a conservative Foreign Secretary suggest business should 'F..k off. That was the moment I turned against the Brexiteers, especially as my son in law and 40,000 jobs depend on Airbus, and hope that my party can survive with sensible pro business MP's and do a deal in Europe that satisfy's the referendum but is wholly business friendly. I have never voted LD and do not intend doing so anytime soon but I will fight for sanity of my party
    While being openly hostile to business is foolish the pandering to business which we have also seen is equally so.

    Being business friendly and acting in the best interests of the country as a whole are not necessarily the same thing.

    If big business wants to be viewed in a better light then the tax dodging, rules breaking and all other self-serving crap parts of it indulge in needs to stop.
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 60,004

    HYUFD said:

    If you wish to vote LD say in a Mogg v Corbyn general election fair enough, they would probably represent your views more but clearly Mogg is gaining support with Tory Leavers

    Out of curiosity, how do you think IDS would have done in a General Election? Would the public have warmed to the quiet man?
    I am astonished that HYUFD should just dismiss a fellow conservative supporter to go and vote LD's because I object to the hard Brexiteers and JRM.

    I have had many years, and several election campaigns, supporting Welsh Conservative MPs, and helping them to get elected, and who would be horrified at the anti business nonsense being put forward by some and could not even imagine their reaction if they had heard a conservative Foreign Secretary suggest business should 'F..k off. That was the moment I turned against the Brexiteers, especially as my son in law and 40,000 jobs depend on Airbus, and hope that my party can survive with sensible pro business MP's and do a deal in Europe that satisfy's the referendum but is wholly business friendly. I have never voted LD and do not intend doing so anytime soon but I will fight for sanity of my party
    While being openly hostile to business is foolish the pandering to business which we have also seen is equally so.

    Being business friendly and acting in the best interests of the country as a whole are not necessarily the same thing.

    If big business wants to be viewed in a better light then the tax dodging, rules breaking and all other self-serving crap parts of it indulge in needs to stop.
    I absolutely agree but Airbus, Jaguar Land Rover, BMW and Rolls Royce are all iconic businesses in the UK and to attack them is just crass and the workers will not credit the party that puts their jobs under threat. I have seen the letter sent by Airbus CEO to all the workforce and it is of huge concern to the workers.
  • ThomasNasheThomasNashe Posts: 4,922
    Yorkcity said:

    May has done well , this weekend over Brexit.Hope it continues.
    She is starting to think , what is best for the country, and not just the Conservative Party.
    Really think - and hope - this is the end for Boris. This and Heathrow have trashed whatever credibility he had left. I can see him going down the Portillo route of seeing out his remaining years making niche documentaries: perhaps putting up a challenge to Mary Beard's position as the 'go to' on the topic of ancient Rome - and I would incline to bet that Mary would eventually come out victorious.
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 48,928

    Yorkcity said:

    May has done well , this weekend over Brexit.Hope it continues.
    She is starting to think , what is best for the country, and not just the Conservative Party.
    Really think - and hope - this is the end for Boris. This and Heathrow have trashed whatever credibility he had left. I can see him going down the Portillo route of seeing out his remaining years making niche documentaries: perhaps putting up a challenge to Mary Beard's position as the 'go to' on the topic of ancient Rome - and I would incline to bet that Mary would eventually come out victorious.
    Boris is more of a Constantinople man, surely?
  • ThomasNasheThomasNashe Posts: 4,922

    Yorkcity said:

    May has done well , this weekend over Brexit.Hope it continues.
    She is starting to think , what is best for the country, and not just the Conservative Party.
    Really think - and hope - this is the end for Boris. This and Heathrow have trashed whatever credibility he had left. I can see him going down the Portillo route of seeing out his remaining years making niche documentaries: perhaps putting up a challenge to Mary Beard's position as the 'go to' on the topic of ancient Rome - and I would incline to bet that Mary would eventually come out victorious.
    Boris is more of a Constantinople man, surely?
    Perhaps. IIRC in his classics degree he only managed a 2.1 in the end.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 58,044

    Yorkcity said:

    May has done well , this weekend over Brexit.Hope it continues.
    She is starting to think , what is best for the country, and not just the Conservative Party.
    Really think - and hope - this is the end for Boris. This and Heathrow have trashed whatever credibility he had left. I can see him going down the Portillo route of seeing out his remaining years making niche documentaries: perhaps putting up a challenge to Mary Beard's position as the 'go to' on the topic of ancient Rome - and I would incline to bet that Mary would eventually come out victorious.
    It is a damn shame that the Brexiteers weren't find out during, or even before the Referendum.

    After 30 years of dreaming, it turns out they have absolutely no idea what a UK outside the EU would look like. Certainly not one that more than two of them can agree on at once.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 66,769

    Yorkcity said:

    May has done well , this weekend over Brexit.Hope it continues.
    She is starting to think , what is best for the country, and not just the Conservative Party.
    Really think - and hope - this is the end for Boris. This and Heathrow have trashed whatever credibility he had left. I can see him going down the Portillo route of seeing out his remaining years making niche documentaries: perhaps putting up a challenge to Mary Beard's position as the 'go to' on the topic of ancient Rome - and I would incline to bet that Mary would eventually come out victorious.
    Boris is more of a Constantinople man, surely?
    Perhaps. IIRC in his classics degree he only managed a 2.1 in the end.
    So he wouldn't translate the graffiti as literally as Beard did?

    Causing some embarrassment to a colleague of mine when he showed it to Year 7...
  • another_richardanother_richard Posts: 24,968

    HYUFD said:

    If you wish to vote LD say in a Mogg v Corbyn general election fair enough, they would probably represent your views more but clearly Mogg is gaining support with Tory Leavers

    Out of curiosity, how do you think IDS would have done in a General Election? Would the public have warmed to the quiet man?
    I am astonished that HYUFD should just dismiss a fellow conservative supporter to go and vote LD's because I object to the hard Brexiteers and JRM.

    I have had many years, and several election campaigns, supporting Welsh Conservative MPs, and helping them to get elected, and who would be horrified at the anti business nonsense being put forward by some and could not even imagine their reaction if they had heard a conservative Foreign Secretary suggest business should 'F..k off. That was the moment I turned against the Brexiteers, especially as my son in law and 40,000 jobs depend on Airbus, and hope that my party can survive with sensible pro business MP's and do a deal in Europe that satisfy's the referendum but is wholly business friendly. I have never voted LD and do not intend doing so anytime soon but I will fight for sanity of my party
    While being openly hostile to business is foolish the pandering to business which we have also seen is equally so.

    Being business friendly and acting in the best interests of the country as a whole are not necessarily the same thing.

    If big business wants to be viewed in a better light then the tax dodging, rules breaking and all other self-serving crap parts of it indulge in needs to stop.
    To develop my point further an example.

    A century ago some of my ancestors relocated to Yorkshire to work in the mines. The mining companies didn't just open the mines but also built housing for their workers and made contributions to setting up schools, medical facilities and other public services.

    Whether they did this from a spirit of altruism or because they thought it would be to their own long term benefit is irrelevant - they still did it.

    Now in the same part of the country, even sometimes on the same sites as the old mines, the likes of Amazon run modern sweatshops:

    https://www.theguardian.com/business/2018/may/31/amazon-accused-of-treating-uk-warehouse-staff-like-robots

    while being dependent upon taxpayer subsidised labour, paying sod all tax and contributing nothing to the housing and public services needs of their employees or other social and environmental costs.

    I do not see why the government should be 'business friendly' to such organisations.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 58,044
    In the long run, whatever mess May finally makes of all this, is dead anyway:

    https://twitter.com/EuropeElects/status/1015944514765238272
  • AlistairAlistair Posts: 23,670
    Incidentally I see all the fuds who lay on the "Where's your global warming now" when it snows are pretty quiet at the moment.
  • another_richardanother_richard Posts: 24,968

    HYUFD said:

    If you wish to vote LD say in a Mogg v Corbyn general election fair enough, they would probably represent your views more but clearly Mogg is gaining support with Tory Leavers

    Out of curiosity, how do you think IDS would have done in a General Election? Would the public have warmed to the quiet man?
    I am astonished that HYUFD should just dismiss a fellow conservative supporter to go and vote LD's because I object to the hard Brexiteers and JRM.

    I have had many years, and several election campaigns, supporting Welsh Conservative MPs, and helping them to get elected, and who would be horrified at the anti business nonsense being put forward by some and could not even imagine their reaction if they had heard a conservative Foreign Secretary suggest business should 'F..k off. That was the moment I turned against the Brexiteers, especially as my son in law and 40,000 jobs depend on Airbus, and hope that my party can survive with sensible pro business MP's and do a deal in Europe that satisfy's the referendum but is wholly business friendly. I have never voted LD and do not intend doing so anytime soon but I will fight for sanity of my party
    While being openly hostile to business is foolish the pandering to business which we have also seen is equally so.

    Being business friendly and acting in the best interests of the country as a whole are not necessarily the same thing.

    If big business wants to be viewed in a better light then the tax dodging, rules breaking and all other self-serving crap parts of it indulge in needs to stop.
    I absolutely agree but Airbus, Jaguar Land Rover, BMW and Rolls Royce are all iconic businesses in the UK and to attack them is just crass and the workers will not credit the party that puts their jobs under threat. I have seen the letter sent by Airbus CEO to all the workforce and it is of huge concern to the workers.
    I wonder how many unskilled immigrants those four companies employ.

    Beyond a few cleaners and security personnel it would be approximately zero.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 66,769
    edited July 2018
    This channel 4 commentator is an idiot. If it wasn't for David Coulthard it wouldn't be worth listening to.

    Edit - could be worse, could be Max Vercrashen.

    As Vettel takes Bottas.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 50,780
    England have really screwed up the cricket after a superb start. India now strong favourites.
  • ThomasNasheThomasNashe Posts: 4,922

    In the long run, whatever mess May finally makes of all this, is dead anyway:

    https://twitter.com/EuropeElects/status/1015944514765238272

    Yesterday I moved into the 55-64 bracket. Interesting to see that demographically that's made me even more of a remainiac than I was before.
  • FloaterFloater Posts: 14,195
    British Grand Prix

    WHAT A RACE!!!!!!!
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 58,044
    Now, this is an interesting question:

    "So what exactly did Angela Merkel say to Mrs May in that peculiar meeting before the Chequers summit? Did she suggest that the EU would buy this wholesale offer as it stands? Somehow I doubt it. This isn’t over."

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2018/07/07/theresa-may-has-put-survival-ahead-sovereignty-united-kingdom/
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 66,769
    DavidL said:

    England have really screwed up the cricket after a superb start. India now strong favourites.

    I don't know. Anything over 200 is a good score at Bristol given it's a slow wicket and a big outfield. They will have to bowl well given India's firepower but I'd probably rather be in England's shoes.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 66,769

    In the long run, whatever mess May finally makes of all this, is dead anyway:

    https://twitter.com/EuropeElects/status/1015944514765238272

    Yesterday I moved into the 55-64 bracket. Interesting to see that demographically that's made me even more of a remainiac than I was before.
    Many happy returns for yesterday.
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 48,928

    In the long run, whatever mess May finally makes of all this, is dead anyway:

    https://twitter.com/EuropeElects/status/1015944514765238272

    YouGov had Remain 52% Leave 48% on Referendum day itself (23/6/16)
  • SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 20,407

    Yorkcity said:

    May has done well , this weekend over Brexit.Hope it continues.
    She is starting to think , what is best for the country, and not just the Conservative Party.
    Really think - and hope - this is the end for Boris. This and Heathrow have trashed whatever credibility he had left. I can see him going down the Portillo route of seeing out his remaining years making niche documentaries: perhaps putting up a challenge to Mary Beard's position as the 'go to' on the topic of ancient Rome - and I would incline to bet that Mary would eventually come out victorious.
    Boris is more of a Constantinople man, surely?
    An Istanbullshitter
  • ThomasNasheThomasNashe Posts: 4,922
    ydoethur said:

    In the long run, whatever mess May finally makes of all this, is dead anyway:

    https://twitter.com/EuropeElects/status/1015944514765238272

    Yesterday I moved into the 55-64 bracket. Interesting to see that demographically that's made me even more of a remainiac than I was before.
    Many happy returns for yesterday.
    Thank you.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 66,769

    Yorkcity said:

    May has done well , this weekend over Brexit.Hope it continues.
    She is starting to think , what is best for the country, and not just the Conservative Party.
    Really think - and hope - this is the end for Boris. This and Heathrow have trashed whatever credibility he had left. I can see him going down the Portillo route of seeing out his remaining years making niche documentaries: perhaps putting up a challenge to Mary Beard's position as the 'go to' on the topic of ancient Rome - and I would incline to bet that Mary would eventually come out victorious.
    Boris is more of a Constantinople man, surely?
    An Istanbullshitter
    That's not a Nicaea thing to say.

    (Truthful though...)
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 49,614
    Well the record 140,000 people at Silverstone today have most definitely got their money’s worth!
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 50,780
    ydoethur said:

    DavidL said:

    England have really screwed up the cricket after a superb start. India now strong favourites.

    I don't know. Anything over 200 is a good score at Bristol given it's a slow wicket and a big outfield. They will have to bowl well given India's firepower but I'd probably rather be in England's shoes.
    You've maybe not been watching? The boundaries are very short. The pitch has some grass on it but no sign of any spin or swing. A batsman's paradise (again). I reckon England are 20 runs short at the break.
  • brendan16brendan16 Posts: 2,315

    In the long run, whatever mess May finally makes of all this, is dead anyway:

    https://twitter.com/EuropeElects/status/1015944514765238272

    Yesterday I moved into the 55-64 bracket. Interesting to see that demographically that's made me even more of a remainiac than I was before.
    Of course if everyone voted the same at 18 as at 65 we wouldn't have had Conservative governments for most of the last century.

    Those retired leavers were remainers in 1975.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 58,044
    Alistair said:

    Incidentally I see all the fuds who lay on the "Where's your global warming now" when it snows are pretty quiet at the moment.

    "2018 has unfortunately been a prime example of global warming’s effect on the jet stream. And northern Siberia has been getting blowtorched by heat that refuses to quit because of an ongoing blocked pattern favorable for intense heat."

    https://wxclimonews.com/2018/07/02/extreme-heat-event-in-northern-siberia-and-the-coastal-arctic-ocean-this-week/
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 66,769
    edited July 2018
    DavidL said:

    ydoethur said:

    DavidL said:

    England have really screwed up the cricket after a superb start. India now strong favourites.

    I don't know. Anything over 200 is a good score at Bristol given it's a slow wicket and a big outfield. They will have to bowl well given India's firepower but I'd probably rather be in England's shoes.
    You've maybe not been watching? The boundaries are very short. The pitch has some grass on it but no sign of any spin or swing. A batsman's paradise (again). I reckon England are 20 runs short at the break.
    I know Bristol very well. The boundaries are a lot longer than they look. It's bigger than Trent Bridge, for example.

    Edit - and I said 'slow', which would make it unsurprising there wasn't much seam or swing.
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 48,928

    In the long run, whatever mess May finally makes of all this, is dead anyway:

    https://twitter.com/EuropeElects/status/1015944514765238272

    Yesterday I moved into the 55-64 bracket. Interesting to see that demographically that's made me even more of a remainiac than I was before.
    Crappy Happy Birthday!

    EDIT! Oops!
  • ralphmalphralphmalph Posts: 2,201

    HYUFD said:

    If you wish to vote LD say in a Mogg v Corbyn general election fair enough, they would probably represent your views more but clearly Mogg is gaining support with Tory Leavers

    Out of curiosity, how do you think IDS would have done in a General Election? Would the public have warmed to the quiet man?
    I am astonished that HYUFD should just dismiss a fellow conservative supporter to go and vote LD's because I object to the hard Brexiteers and JRM.

    I have had many years, and several election campaigns, supporting Welsh Conservative MPs, and helping them to get elected, and who would be horrified at the anti business nonsense being put forward by some and could not even imagine their reaction if they had heard a conservative Foreign Secretary suggest business should 'F..k off. That was the moment I turned against the Brexiteers, especially as my son in law and 40,000 jobs depend on Airbus, and hope that my party can survive with sensible pro business MP's and do a deal in Europe that satisfy's the referendum but is wholly business friendly. I have never voted LD and do not intend doing so anytime soon but I will fight for sanity of my party
    While being openly hostile to business is foolish the pandering to business which we have also seen is equally so.

    Being business friendly and acting in the best interests of the country as a whole are not necessarily the same thing.

    If big business wants to be viewed in a better light then the tax dodging, rules breaking and all other self-serving crap parts of it indulge in needs to stop.
    I absolutely agree but Airbus, Jaguar Land Rover, BMW and Rolls Royce are all iconic businesses in the UK and to attack them is just crass and the workers will not credit the party that puts their jobs under threat. I have seen the letter sent by Airbus CEO to all the workforce and it is of huge concern to the workers.
    I find it surprising that Airbus feels so confident to diminish and threaten one of its largest customers. It was reported that before there last announcement the day before they were in Government begging for more taxpayer money to subsidise their profits.
    We do not have a business friendly Government we have a Government of patsies.
  • brendan16brendan16 Posts: 2,315
    edited July 2018

    Now, this is an interesting question:

    "So what exactly did Angela Merkel say to Mrs May in that peculiar meeting before the Chequers summit? Did she suggest that the EU would buy this wholesale offer as it stands? Somehow I doubt it. This isn’t over."

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2018/07/07/theresa-may-has-put-survival-ahead-sovereignty-united-kingdom/


    Angela Merkel cannot even guarantee what Germany wants anymore as she has to placate the CSU - who are worried about the AfD taking their voters - and the SPD.

    Member states like Italy, Hungary, Slovakia, Poland and Austria aren't as compliant as they used to be. It only takes one out of 27 to say No - we want full FOM or whatever - and it doesn't happen.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 50,780
    ydoethur said:

    DavidL said:

    ydoethur said:

    DavidL said:

    England have really screwed up the cricket after a superb start. India now strong favourites.

    I don't know. Anything over 200 is a good score at Bristol given it's a slow wicket and a big outfield. They will have to bowl well given India's firepower but I'd probably rather be in England's shoes.
    You've maybe not been watching? The boundaries are very short. The pitch has some grass on it but no sign of any spin or swing. A batsman's paradise (again). I reckon England are 20 runs short at the break.
    I know Bristol very well. The boundaries are a lot longer than they look. It's bigger than Trent Bridge, for example.

    Edit - and I said 'slow', which would make it unsurprising there wasn't much seam or swing.
    I think today it was 55m down the ground? Its no more than a short jab for 6. As Roy was showing extremely well at the start. I think they have brought the boundaries in to increase the capacity. 15K in the house today!

    The people on Sky thinks its short.
  • AlistairAlistair Posts: 23,670

    Alistair said:

    Incidentally I see all the fuds who lay on the "Where's your global warming now" when it snows are pretty quiet at the moment.

    "2018 has unfortunately been a prime example of global warming’s effect on the jet stream. And northern Siberia has been getting blowtorched by heat that refuses to quit because of an ongoing blocked pattern favorable for intense heat."

    https://wxclimonews.com/2018/07/02/extreme-heat-event-in-northern-siberia-and-the-coastal-arctic-ocean-this-week/
    I would kill to get the arctic winds back here in Edinburgh.
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 48,928
    Alistair said:

    Incidentally I see all the fuds who lay on the "Where's your global warming now" when it snows are pretty quiet at the moment.

    Um, because it's not winter at the moment, Alastair!

    You will recall it snowed in London in December, January, February and March, which is highly unusual.
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 60,933
    Good afternoon, everyone.

    F1: quite the end to the race. Cheers to Mr. B for his under 15.5 finishers tip (which I shamelessly stole). The Bottas tip didn't come off. Should've suggested hedging it. Still green overall. The early Hartley DNF bet came off.
  • SquareRootSquareRoot Posts: 7,095

    In the long run, whatever mess May finally makes of all this, is dead anyway:

    https://twitter.com/EuropeElects/status/1015944514765238272

    Yesterday I moved into the 55-64 bracket. Interesting to see that demographically that's made me even more of a remainiac than I was before.
    Crappy Happy Birthday!

    EDIT! Oops!
    Circa a week ago I moved into the 65 +. the only bonus being that I am one of the last of my peer age group to get their state pension at 65.. Happy days indeed.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 66,769

    In the long run, whatever mess May finally makes of all this, is dead anyway:

    https://twitter.com/EuropeElects/status/1015944514765238272

    Yesterday I moved into the 55-64 bracket. Interesting to see that demographically that's made me even more of a remainiac than I was before.
    Crappy Happy Birthday!

    EDIT! Oops!
    I do hope that was a typo.

    Anyway, I have paperwork to do. Have a nice weekend (what's left of it).
  • Ishmael_ZIshmael_Z Posts: 8,981
    Alistair said:

    Incidentally I see all the fuds who lay on the "Where's your global warming now" when it snows are pretty quiet at the moment.

    We seem to have peak warmth and trough CO2, which surely blows the warmist hoax completely out of the water.
  • ThomasNasheThomasNashe Posts: 4,922
    brendan16 said:

    In the long run, whatever mess May finally makes of all this, is dead anyway:

    https://twitter.com/EuropeElects/status/1015944514765238272

    Yesterday I moved into the 55-64 bracket. Interesting to see that demographically that's made me even more of a remainiac than I was before.
    Of course if everyone voted the same at 18 as at 65 we wouldn't have had Conservative governments for most of the last century.

    Those retired leavers were remainers in 1975.
    Yes, generally - with some notable exceptions - people become more conservative as they grow older. But Leave/ Remain is not a right/ left split. Rather it's related to the more cosmopolitan world view of the younger generations, that for example, is manifest in the paradigm shifts we've seen in the changing attitudes to racial and sexual difference over the last 30 years or so.
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 60,933
    F1: interestingly, the BBC results page thinks Vettel got pole position and Hamilton started 17th. Odd mistakes to make.
  • AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 30,340

    brendan16 said:

    In the long run, whatever mess May finally makes of all this, is dead anyway:

    https://twitter.com/EuropeElects/status/1015944514765238272

    Yesterday I moved into the 55-64 bracket. Interesting to see that demographically that's made me even more of a remainiac than I was before.
    Of course if everyone voted the same at 18 as at 65 we wouldn't have had Conservative governments for most of the last century.

    Those retired leavers were remainers in 1975.
    Yes, generally - with some notable exceptions - people become more conservative as they grow older. But Leave/ Remain is not a right/ left split. Rather it's related to the more cosmopolitan world view of the younger generations, that for example, is manifest in the paradigm shifts we've seen in the changing attitudes to racial and sexual difference over the last 30 years or so.
    There is no evidence of Remainers becoming more Leave friendly since the referendum. If anything, there’s been a small movement the other way. We learned on Friday that Brexit pessimists greatly outnumber Brexit optimists. Leavers are reduced to hoping that the public will lapse into sullen compliance with a course which they on balance have no faith in.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 49,614

    Good afternoon, everyone.

    F1: quite the end to the race. Cheers to Mr. B for his under 15.5 finishers tip (which I shamelessly stole). The Bottas tip didn't come off. Should've suggested hedging it. Still green overall. The early Hartley DNF bet came off.

    Yes, well done to @Nigelb for that tip. No SC didn’t come off, but the safety car turned a good race into an epic last ten laps. I did also have a cheeky lay on Lewis at 1.8 before the start, just because I didn’t think he should have been odds on.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 47,789

    brendan16 said:

    In the long run, whatever mess May finally makes of all this, is dead anyway:

    https://twitter.com/EuropeElects/status/1015944514765238272

    Yesterday I moved into the 55-64 bracket. Interesting to see that demographically that's made me even more of a remainiac than I was before.
    Of course if everyone voted the same at 18 as at 65 we wouldn't have had Conservative governments for most of the last century.

    Those retired leavers were remainers in 1975.
    Yes, generally - with some notable exceptions - people become more conservative as they grow older. But Leave/ Remain is not a right/ left split. Rather it's related to the more cosmopolitan world view of the younger generations, that for example, is manifest in the paradigm shifts we've seen in the changing attitudes to racial and sexual difference over the last 30 years or so.
    There is no evidence of Remainers becoming more Leave friendly since the referendum. If anything, there’s been a small movement the other way. We learned on Friday that Brexit pessimists greatly outnumber Brexit optimists. Leavers are reduced to hoping that the public will lapse into sullen compliance with a course which they on balance have no faith in.
    The way the Brexiteers in the media leapt on the Danny Dyer outburst shows how afraid they are of the narrative shifting to "Who the bloody hell got us into this mess?"
  • AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 30,340
    Theresa May should consider getting some loyalist MPs to put letters in to the 1922 committee. She has the opportunity to cement her control of the party by winning a confidence vote convincingly then dealing with the disruptive forces from a position of strength,
  • brendan16brendan16 Posts: 2,315

    brendan16 said:

    In the long run, whatever mess May finally makes of all this, is dead anyway:

    https://twitter.com/EuropeElects/status/1015944514765238272

    Yesterday I moved into the 55-64 bracket. Interesting to see that demographically that's made me even more of a remainiac than I was before.
    Of course if everyone voted the same at 18 as at 65 we wouldn't have had Conservative governments for most of the last century.

    Those retired leavers were remainers in 1975.
    Yes, generally - with some notable exceptions - people become more conservative as they grow older. But Leave/ Remain is not a right/ left split. Rather it's related to the more cosmopolitan world view of the younger generations, that for example, is manifest in the paradigm shifts we've seen in the changing attitudes to racial and sexual difference over the last 30 years or so.
    But attitudes change and evolve. Young people are often the biggest supporters of populist parties now on the continent - a role which has been taken here by Corbyn.

    We don't know how things may develop - and what the future of the U.K and EU may be.

    Still it was always amusing to me to see so many young people align with Goldman Sachs and Ryanair in backing remain.
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 60,004

    HYUFD said:

    If you wish to vote LD say in a Mogg v Corbyn general election fair enough, they would probably represent your views more but clearly Mogg is gaining support with Tory Leavers

    Out of curiosity, how do you think IDS would have done in a General Election? Would the public have warmed to the quiet man?
    I am astonished that HYUFD should just dismiss a fellow conservative supporter to go and vote LD's because I object to the hard Brexiteers and JRM.

    I have had many years, and several election campaigns, supporting Welsh Conservative MPs, and helping them to get elected, and who would be horrified at the anti business nonsense being put forward by some and could not even imagine their reaction if they had heard a conservative Foreign Secretary suggest business should 'F..k off. That was the moment I turned against the Brexiteers, especially as my son in law and 40,000 jobs depend on Airbus, and hope that my party can survive with sensible pro business MP's and do a deal in Europe that satisfy's the referendum but is wholly business friendly. I have never voted LD and do not intend doing so anytime soon but I will fight for sanity of my party
    While being openly hostile to business is foolish the pandering to business which we have also seen is equally so.

    Being business friendly and acting in the best interests of the country as a whole are not necessarily the same thing.

    If big business wants to be viewed in a better light then the tax dodging, rules breaking and all other self-serving crap parts of it indulge in needs to stop.
    I absolutely agree but Airbus, Jaguar Land Rover, BMW and Rolls Royce are all iconic businesses in the UK and to attack them is just crass and the workers will not credit the party that puts their jobs under threat. I have seen the letter sent by Airbus CEO to all the workforce and it is of huge concern to the workers.
    I find it surprising that Airbus feels so confident to diminish and threaten one of its largest customers. It was reported that before there last announcement the day before they were in Government begging for more taxpayer money to subsidise their profits.
    We do not have a business friendly Government we have a Government of patsies.
    How are we a customer of Airbus. We manufacture their wings in North Wales and they are assembled in other parts of Europe.
  • Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453

    Yes, generally - with some notable exceptions - people become more conservative as they grow older. But Leave/ Remain is not a right/ left split. Rather it's related to the more cosmopolitan world view of the younger generations, that for example, is manifest in the paradigm shifts we've seen in the changing attitudes to racial and sexual difference over the last 30 years or so.

    Some fascinating bits in the huffpost piece upthread.

    Older people who voted out "for the future of their grandkids" bemused by the same grandkids who think they have stymied their futures.

    Asians (2nd generation immigrants) voting leave because of excessive polish immigration.
  • Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453

    Theresa May should consider getting some loyalist MPs to put letters in to the 1922 committee. She has the opportunity to cement her control of the party by winning a confidence vote convincingly then dealing with the disruptive forces from a position of strength,

    I have seen it suggested that No 10 have wargamed this, and think they have the numbers to win the vote
  • ElliotElliot Posts: 1,516

    brendan16 said:

    In the long run, whatever mess May finally makes of all this, is dead anyway:

    https://twitter.com/EuropeElects/status/1015944514765238272

    Yesterday I moved into the 55-64 bracket. Interesting to see that demographically that's made me even more of a remainiac than I was before.
    Of course if everyone voted the same at 18 as at 65 we wouldn't have had Conservative governments for most of the last century.

    Those retired leavers were remainers in 1975.
    Yes, generally - with some notable exceptions - people become more conservative as they grow older. But Leave/ Remain is not a right/ left split. Rather it's related to the more cosmopolitan world view of the younger generations, that for example, is manifest in the paradigm shifts we've seen in the changing attitudes to racial and sexual difference over the last 30 years or so.
    There is no evidence of Remainers becoming more Leave friendly since the referendum. If anything, there’s been a small movement the other way. We learned on Friday that Brexit pessimists greatly outnumber Brexit optimists. Leavers are reduced to hoping that the public will lapse into sullen compliance with a course which they on balance have no faith in.
    The way the Brexiteers in the media leapt on the Danny Dyer outburst shows how afraid they are of the narrative shifting to "Who the bloody hell got us into this mess?"
    Amazing how many things you interpret as Brexit being a disaster. While of course, anything positive is because we haven't Brexited yet.
  • GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 20,812
    edited July 2018
    Sheer delight to watch Brexiters turn on one another and fulminate against May.

    The problem with cake-ism is that, proverbially, it describes an impossibility. The headbangers, cheered on by idiots in the press, never grasped this common sense truth.
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 60,004
    Scott_P said:

    Theresa May should consider getting some loyalist MPs to put letters in to the 1922 committee. She has the opportunity to cement her control of the party by winning a confidence vote convincingly then dealing with the disruptive forces from a position of strength,

    I have seen it suggested that No 10 have wargamed this, and think they have the numbers to win the vote
    I have no doubt she would win by a large margin
  • ThomasNasheThomasNashe Posts: 4,922

    brendan16 said:

    In the long run, whatever mess May finally makes of all this, is dead anyway:

    https://twitter.com/EuropeElects/status/1015944514765238272

    Yesterday I moved into the 55-64 bracket. Interesting to see that demographically that's made me even more of a remainiac than I was before.
    Of course if everyone voted the same at 18 as at 65 we wouldn't have had Conservative governments for most of the last century.

    Those retired leavers were remainers in 1975.
    Yes, generally - with some notable exceptions - people become more conservative as they grow older. But Leave/ Remain is not a right/ left split. Rather it's related to the more cosmopolitan world view of the younger generations, that for example, is manifest in the paradigm shifts we've seen in the changing attitudes to racial and sexual difference over the last 30 years or so.
    There is no evidence of Remainers becoming more Leave friendly since the referendum. If anything, there’s been a small movement the other way. We learned on Friday that Brexit pessimists greatly outnumber Brexit optimists. Leavers are reduced to hoping that the public will lapse into sullen compliance with a course which they on balance have no faith in.
    The way the Brexiteers in the media leapt on the Danny Dyer outburst shows how afraid they are of the narrative shifting to "Who the bloody hell got us into this mess?"
    In the event of 'no deal' that would be an unstoppable narrative, and the Tories would be out of power for a generation. The more sensible Tories understand this.
  • AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 30,340
    Scott_P said:

    Theresa May should consider getting some loyalist MPs to put letters in to the 1922 committee. She has the opportunity to cement her control of the party by winning a confidence vote convincingly then dealing with the disruptive forces from a position of strength,

    I have seen it suggested that No 10 have wargamed this, and think they have the numbers to win the vote
    So does everyone else or 48 letters would already have reached Graham Brady. It’s hardly as if she commands much loyalty otherwise.
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 60,933
    Mr. P, the Germans wargamed how they were going to win the war in 1914 too.

    F1: writing the race review, little tricky remembering all the details. As an aside, Raikkonen was catching Hamilton very rapidly on the last lap. Two or three more and I think he would've passed him.
  • SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 38,879

    Sheer delight to watch Brexiters turn on one another and fulminate against May.

    The problem with cake-ism is that, proverbially, it describes an impossibility. The headbangers, cheered on by idiots in the press, never grasped this common sense truth.

    I’m old enough to remember when the Brexit car crash was all the fault of treachorous Remainers not getting behind the PM!!

  • RogerRoger Posts: 18,891
    I'm beginning to think Mrs May might have been extraordinarily clever. I've just had lunch with some friends and they thought Rees Mogg and Co look like loonies. Comparable to Major's 'bastards' with Rees Mogg the new Tony Marlow.

    By defining the new enemy-and Rees Mogg is such a ludicrous caracature it's not difficult-May looks like the new normal.

  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 48,928
    Elliot said:

    brendan16 said:

    In the long run, whatever mess May finally makes of all this, is dead anyway:

    https://twitter.com/EuropeElects/status/1015944514765238272

    Yesterday I moved into the 55-64 bracket. Interesting to see that demographically that's made me even more of a remainiac than I was before.
    Of course if everyone voted the same at 18 as at 65 we wouldn't have had Conservative governments for most of the last century.

    Those retired leavers were remainers in 1975.
    Yes, generally - with some notable exceptions - people become more conservative as they grow older. But Leave/ Remain is not a right/ left split. Rather it's related to the more cosmopolitan world view of the younger generations, that for example, is manifest in the paradigm shifts we've seen in the changing attitudes to racial and sexual difference over the last 30 years or so.
    There is no evidence of Remainers becoming more Leave friendly since the referendum. If anything, there’s been a small movement the other way. We learned on Friday that Brexit pessimists greatly outnumber Brexit optimists. Leavers are reduced to hoping that the public will lapse into sullen compliance with a course which they on balance have no faith in.
    The way the Brexiteers in the media leapt on the Danny Dyer outburst shows how afraid they are of the narrative shifting to "Who the bloody hell got us into this mess?"
    Amazing how many things you interpret as Brexit being a disaster. While of course, anything positive is because we haven't Brexited yet.
    We are in the World Cup semi-finals because of Brexit?
    Or because we have a Tory PM? (like the last two England semi-final appearances?)
    :)
  • ElliotElliot Posts: 1,516

    It is but the vote was to leave. Changing May will not change the reality
    It's just astonishingly stupid. If Cameron had come back with an end to freedom of movement, the right to change our tariffs, CAP and CAF exit, and regulatory divergence in services, he would have been hailed as a hero. And now they would rather full EU membership over it?
  • GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 20,812
    Elliot said:

    It is but the vote was to leave. Changing May will not change the reality
    It's just astonishingly stupid. If Cameron had come back with an end to freedom of movement, the right to change our tariffs, CAP and CAF exit, and regulatory divergence in services, he would have been hailed as a hero. And now they would rather full EU membership over it?
    But May has not “come back” with anything yet.
  • ElliotElliot Posts: 1,516

    Elliot said:

    It is but the vote was to leave. Changing May will not change the reality
    It's just astonishingly stupid. If Cameron had come back with an end to freedom of movement, the right to change our tariffs, CAP and CAF exit, and regulatory divergence in services, he would have been hailed as a hero. And now they would rather full EU membership over it?
    But May has not “come back” with anything yet.
    True enough, but they are opposing her on this deal.
  • ralphmalphralphmalph Posts: 2,201

    Sheer delight to watch Brexiters turn on one another and fulminate against May.

    The problem with cake-ism is that, proverbially, it describes an impossibility. The headbangers, cheered on by idiots in the press, never grasped this common sense truth.

    T Mays proposal is cake-ism of the highest order. Explain how the EU is going to give full single market access for goods with no dosh and no FoM?
This discussion has been closed.