It is but the vote was to leave. Changing May will not change the reality
It's just astonishingly stupid. If Cameron had come back with an end to freedom of movement, the right to change our tariffs, CAP and CAF exit, and regulatory divergence in services, he would have been hailed as a hero. And now they would rather full EU membership over it?
But May has not “come back” with anything yet.
"First you gave the Leavers their Referendum, and then you let them win it!"
Sheer delight to watch Brexiters turn on one another and fulminate against May.
The problem with cake-ism is that, proverbially, it describes an impossibility. The headbangers, cheered on by idiots in the press, never grasped this common sense truth.
As Mandelson said iirc, "In the end Brexit will defeat Brexit".
May's offering is a piss-poor cousin of just being in the EU.
Real Brexit, as has now been made clear after months of attempting cakeism, involves leaving the SM and CU and complete and utter economic mess.
It is but the vote was to leave. Changing May will not change the reality
It's just astonishingly stupid. If Cameron had come back with an end to freedom of movement, the right to change our tariffs, CAP and CAF exit, and regulatory divergence in services, he would have been hailed as a hero. And now they would rather full EU membership over it?
Ivan Rodgers gave a speech to Oxford Uni and it was published on Politico about that negotiation, the background and why Cameron called the referendum. Well worth a read. Basically the Treasury was very worried that the Eurozone would gang up on the City and damage it. This came after Camerons so called veto, which they just bypassed. What Cameron wanted was protection for the City in his negotiation, he did not care about FoM. The referendum was a threat to get the protection.
F1: quite the end to the race. Cheers to Mr. B for his under 15.5 finishers tip (which I shamelessly stole). The Bottas tip didn't come off. Should've suggested hedging it. Still green overall. The early Hartley DNF bet came off.
Sincerest form of flattery etc... you’re quite welcome.
I was on the motorway this afternoon, so reduced to listening to it on the radio, but pretty dramatic nonetheless. And nice to make a profit.
It is but the vote was to leave. Changing May will not change the reality
It's just astonishingly stupid. If Cameron had come back with an end to freedom of movement, the right to change our tariffs, CAP and CAF exit, and regulatory divergence in services, he would have been hailed as a hero. And now they would rather full EU membership over it?
Ivan Rodgers gave a speech to Oxford Uni and it was published on Politico about that negotiation, the background and why Cameron called the referendum. Well worth a read. Basically the Treasury was very worried that the Eurozone would gang up on the City and damage it. This came after Camerons so called veto, which they just bypassed. What Cameron wanted was protection for the City in his negotiation, he did not care about FoM. The referendum was a threat to get the protection.
If you wish to vote LD say in a Mogg v Corbyn general election fair enough, they would probably represent your views more but clearly Mogg is gaining support with Tory Leavers
Out of curiosity, how do you think IDS would have done in a General Election? Would the public have warmed to the quiet man?
I am astonished that HYUFD should just dismiss a fellow conservative supporter to go and vote LD's because I object to the hard Brexiteers and JRM.
I have had many years, and several election campaigns, supporting Welsh Conservative MPs, and helping them to get elected, and who would be horrified at the anti business nonsense being put forward by some and could not even imagine their reaction if they had heard a conservative Foreign Secretary suggest business should 'F..k off. That was the moment I turned against the Brexiteers, especially as my son in law and 40,000 jobs depend on Airbus, and hope that my party can survive with sensible pro business MP's and do a deal in Europe that satisfy's the referendum but is wholly business friendly. I have never voted LD and do not intend doing so anytime soon but I will fight for sanity of my party
While being openly hostile to business is foolish the pandering to business which we have also seen is equally so.
Being business friendly and acting in the best interests of the country as a whole are not necessarily the same thing.
If big business wants to be viewed in a better light then the tax dodging, rules breaking and all other self-serving crap parts of it indulge in needs to stop.
I absolutely agree but Airbus, Jaguar Land Rover, BMW and Rolls Royce are all iconic businesses in the UK and to attack them is just crass and the workers will not credit the party that puts their jobs under threat. I have seen the letter sent by Airbus CEO to all the workforce and it is of huge concern to the workers.
I find it surprising that Airbus feels so confident to diminish and threaten one of its largest customers. It was reported that before there last announcement the day before they were in Government begging for more taxpayer money to subsidise their profits. We do not have a business friendly Government we have a Government of patsies.
How are we a customer of Airbus. We manufacture their wings in North Wales and they are assembled in other parts of Europe.
The UK government buys Airbus planes, Helicopters, defence equipment and satellites in very big quantities.
Sheer delight to watch Brexiters turn on one another and fulminate against May.
The problem with cake-ism is that, proverbially, it describes an impossibility. The headbangers, cheered on by idiots in the press, never grasped this common sense truth.
T Mays proposal is cake-ism of the highest order. Explain how the EU is going to give full single market access for goods with no dosh and no FoM?
Oh yes, I know. But it least nods to the awareness that once eaten, cake may be gone.
Incidentally I see all the fuds who lay on the "Where's your global warming now" when it snows are pretty quiet at the moment.
"2018 has unfortunately been a prime example of global warming’s effect on the jet stream. And northern Siberia has been getting blowtorched by heat that refuses to quit because of an ongoing blocked pattern favorable for intense heat."
Sheer delight to watch Brexiters turn on one another and fulminate against May.
The problem with cake-ism is that, proverbially, it describes an impossibility. The headbangers, cheered on by idiots in the press, never grasped this common sense truth.
T Mays proposal is cake-ism of the highest order. Explain how the EU is going to give full single market access for goods with no dosh and no FoM?
If they agree to that, then other countries e.g Italy will be queuing up for some of it.
Not sure if anyone else has done this yet, but by my reckoning according to the @DavidL method..
After last World Cup went to Poland, then back to Ger, then to RoI, then back to Poland. Scotland missed numerous opportunities to become world champions.
It is but the vote was to leave. Changing May will not change the reality
It's just astonishingly stupid. If Cameron had come back with an end to freedom of movement, the right to change our tariffs, CAP and CAF exit, and regulatory divergence in services, he would have been hailed as a hero. And now they would rather full EU membership over it?
Ivan Rodgers gave a speech to Oxford Uni and it was published on Politico about that negotiation, the background and why Cameron called the referendum. Well worth a read. Basically the Treasury was very worried that the Eurozone would gang up on the City and damage it. This came after Camerons so called veto, which they just bypassed. What Cameron wanted was protection for the City in his negotiation, he did not care about FoM. The referendum was a threat to get the protection.
And this deal, if achieved, would get both.
No it wouldn’t. It explicitly excludes financial services so it offers no protection at all from efforts to repatriate Eurozone activities.
If you wish to vote LD say in a Mogg v Corbyn general election fair enough, they would probably represent your views more but clearly Mogg is gaining support with Tory Leavers
Out of curiosity, how do you think IDS would have done in a General Election? Would the public have warmed to the quiet man?
I am astonished that HYUFD should just dismiss a fellow conservative supporter to go and vote LD's because I object to the hard Brexiteers and JRM.
I have had many years, and several election campaigns, supporting Welsh Conservative MPs, and helping them to get elected, and who would be horrified at the anti business nonsense being put forward by some and could not even imagine their reaction if they had heard a conservative Foreign Secretary suggest business should 'F..k off. That was the moment I turned against the Brexiteers, especially as my son in law and 40,000 jobs depend on Airbus, and hope that my party can survive with sensible pro business MP's and do a deal in Europe that satisfy's the referendum but is wholly business friendly. I have never voted LD and do not intend doing so anytime soon but I will fight for sanity of my party
Well if you still insist you would vote Tory even under a Rees Mogg leadership that is even more reason for Brexiteers to elect Rees Mogg I would have thought?
If you wish to vote LD say in a Mogg v Corbyn general election fair enough, they would probably represent your views more but clearly Mogg is gaining support with Tory Leavers
Out of curiosity, how do you think IDS would have done in a General Election? Would the public have warmed to the quiet man?
I think he would have done about as well as Michael Howard did and gained seats from Labour, yes.
Although I don't think he would have beaten Blair in 2005 I think IDS would certainly have cut Blair's majority
IDS did unexpectedly well at the ballot box before falling to plotters who probably expected wipe-out. Arguably IDS was the Tory Jeremy Corbyn -- lousy at PMQs so ill-regarded by his own backbenchers yet respected as authentic by ordinary voters putting crosses on bits of paper.
Yes, the Tories under IDS even led a few polls against Blair's Labour and the Tories won the 2003 local elections under IDS
If you wish to vote LD say in a Mogg v Corbyn general election fair enough, they would probably represent your views more but clearly Mogg is gaining support with Tory Leavers
Out of curiosity, how do you think IDS would have done in a General Election? Would the public have warmed to the quiet man?
I think he would have done about as well as Michael Howard did and gained seats from Labour, yes.
Although I don't think he would have beaten Blair in 2005 I think IDS would certainly have cut Blair's majority
IDS did unexpectedly well at the ballot box before falling to plotters who probably expected wipe-out. Arguably IDS was the Tory Jeremy Corbyn -- lousy at PMQs so ill-regarded by his own backbenchers yet respected as authentic by ordinary voters putting crosses on bits of paper.
Yes, the Tories under IDS even led a few polls against Blair's Labour and the Tories won the 2003 local elections under IDS
They replaced IDS with Howard who couldn't even win 200 seats!
I'm beginning to think Mrs May might have been extraordinarily clever. I've just had lunch with some friends and they thought Rees Mogg and Co look like loonies. Comparable to Major's 'bastards' with Rees Mogg the new Tony Marlow.
By defining the new enemy-and Rees Mogg is such a ludicrous caracature it's not difficult-May looks like the new normal.
Are these friends of yours Remain voting lefties? If so all very interesting but they would never vote Tory whoever leads the Tory Party
If you wish to vote LD say in a Mogg v Corbyn general election fair enough, they would probably represent your views more but clearly Mogg is gaining support with Tory Leavers
Out of curiosity, how do you think IDS would have done in a General Election? Would the public have warmed to the quiet man?
I am astonished that HYUFD should just dismiss a fellow conservative supporter to go and vote LD's because I object to the hard Brexiteers and JRM.
I have had many years, and several election campaigns, supporting Welsh Conservative MPs, and helping them to get elected, and who would be horrified at the anti business nonsense being put forward by some and could not even imagine their reaction if they had heard a conservative Foreign Secretary suggest business should 'F..k off. That was the moment I turned against the Brexiteers, especially as my son in law and 40,000 jobs depend on Airbus, and hope that my party can survive with sensible pro business MP's and do a deal in Europe that satisfy's the referendum but is wholly business friendly. I have never voted LD and do not intend doing so anytime soon but I will fight for sanity of my party
Well if you still insist you would vote Tory even under a Rees Mogg leadership that is even more reason for Brexiteers to elect Rees Mogg I would have thought?
I said I would fight for the sanity of my party and the hard Brexiteers including JRM are not acceptable to me and how I vote will be determined at the time. But one thing is certain neither Boris or JRM will get my membership vote. They would destroy the party
I'm beginning to think Mrs May might have been extraordinarily clever. I've just had lunch with some friends and they thought Rees Mogg and Co look like loonies. Comparable to Major's 'bastards' with Rees Mogg the new Tony Marlow.
By defining the new enemy-and Rees Mogg is such a ludicrous caracature it's not difficult-May looks like the new normal.
The other interesting point about the 'bastards' of the 1990s is many Eurosceptics got truly hammered in 1997, they were not saved by their stand on Europe. I am thinking of Portillo, Tony Marlow, Nicholas Budgen and Michael Carttiss. I think some Tories suffered bigger swings against them because of their stand on Europe but were not defeated unlike Portillo, I can think of Theresa Gorman in that category. Europe is a fringe issue and the people within the Conservative party who are vocal on it do themselves nothing but damage.
Theresa May should consider getting some loyalist MPs to put letters in to the 1922 committee. She has the opportunity to cement her control of the party by winning a confidence vote convincingly then dealing with the disruptive forces from a position of strength,
F1: am I mad/sleepy, or have the official stats chaps got the Force India points wrong? They have Ocon 25, Perez 23?
It's possible I put in the points values wrong last time, but prior to the UK I had it Perez 25 and Ocon 17. Ocon scored 6 points, so he should be on 23, I think.
Hmm. Did I make an error last time? Entirely possible, but a bit odd.
If you wish to vote LD say in a Mogg v Corbyn general election fair enough, they would probably represent your views more but clearly Mogg is gaining support with Tory Leavers
Out of curiosity, how do you think IDS would have done in a General Election? Would the public have warmed to the quiet man?
I think he would have done about as well as Michael Howard did and gained seats from Labour, yes.
Although I don't think he would have beaten Blair in 2005 I think IDS would certainly have cut Blair's majority
IDS did unexpectedly well at the ballot box before falling to plotters who probably expected wipe-out. Arguably IDS was the Tory Jeremy Corbyn -- lousy at PMQs so ill-regarded by his own backbenchers yet respected as authentic by ordinary voters putting crosses on bits of paper.
Yes, the Tories under IDS even led a few polls against Blair's Labour and the Tories won the 2003 local elections under IDS
They replaced IDS with Howard who couldn't even win 200 seats!
To be fair to Howard he did gain 33 seats in 2005, 3 more than Corbyn gained in 2017
I'm beginning to think Mrs May might have been extraordinarily clever. I've just had lunch with some friends and they thought Rees Mogg and Co look like loonies. Comparable to Major's 'bastards' with Rees Mogg the new Tony Marlow.
By defining the new enemy-and Rees Mogg is such a ludicrous caracature it's not difficult-May looks like the new normal.
The other interesting point about the 'bastards' of the 1990s is many Eurosceptics got truly hammered in 1997, they were not saved by their stand on Europe. I am thinking of Portillo, Tony Marlow, Nicholas Budgen and Michael Carttiss. I think some Tories suffered bigger swings against them because of their stand on Europe but were not defeated unlike Portillo, I can think of Theresa Gorman in that category. Europe is a fringe issue and the people within the Conservative party who are vocal on it do themselves nothing but damage.
Europe is a fringe issue? Yet 72% turned out for the EU referendum, more than voted in any general election since 1992.
Almost a million voters voted for the anti EU Referendum Party and UKIP in 1997 too, costing the Tories a number of seats they should have held
If you wish to vote LD say in a Mogg v Corbyn general election fair enough, they would probably represent your views more but clearly Mogg is gaining support with Tory Leavers
Out of curiosity, how do you think IDS would have done in a General Election? Would the public have warmed to the quiet man?
I am astonished that HYUFD should just dismiss a fellow conservative supporter to go and vote LD's because I object to the hard Brexiteers and JRM.
I have had many years, and several election campaigns, supporting Welsh Conservative MPs, and helping them to get elected, and who would be horrified at the anti business nonsense being put forward by some and could not even imagine their reaction if they had heard a conservative Foreign Secretary suggest business should 'F..k off. That was the moment I turned against the Brexiteers, especially as my son in law and 40,000 jobs depend on Airbus, and hope that my party can survive with sensible pro business MP's and do a deal in Europe that satisfy's the referendum but is wholly business friendly. I have never voted LD and do not intend doing so anytime soon but I will fight for sanity of my party
Well if you still insist you would vote Tory even under a Rees Mogg leadership that is even more reason for Brexiteers to elect Rees Mogg I would have thought?
I said I would fight for the sanity of my party and the hard Brexiteers including JRM are not acceptable to me and how I vote will be determined at the time. But one thing is certain neither Boris or JRM will get my membership vote. They would destroy the party
May has done well , this weekend over Brexit.Hope it continues. She is starting to think , what is best for the country, and not just the Conservative Party.
Really think - and hope - this is the end for Boris. This and Heathrow have trashed whatever credibility he had left. I can see him going down the Portillo route of seeing out his remaining years making niche documentaries: perhaps putting up a challenge to Mary Beard's position as the 'go to' on the topic of ancient Rome - and I would incline to bet that Mary would eventually come out victorious.
Boris is more of a Constantinople man, surely?
An Istanbullshitter
That's not a Nicaea thing to say.
(Truthful though...)
You need to Troy a bit harder than that. And Byzantine contortions won’t count: they are a Rum do.
Yesterday I moved into the 55-64 bracket. Interesting to see that demographically that's made me even more of a remainiac than I was before.
Of course if everyone voted the same at 18 as at 65 we wouldn't have had Conservative governments for most of the last century.
Those retired leavers were remainers in 1975.
Yes, generally - with some notable exceptions - people become more conservative as they grow older. But Leave/ Remain is not a right/ left split. Rather it's related to the more cosmopolitan world view of the younger generations, that for example, is manifest in the paradigm shifts we've seen in the changing attitudes to racial and sexual difference over the last 30 years or so.
But in fact, many of the young Remain voters of 1975 had become Leave voters by 2016. A Remain lead of 22% among 18-29 year olds in 1975 had become a huge Leave lead among 59-70 year olds in 2016.
I'm beginning to think Mrs May might have been extraordinarily clever. I've just had lunch with some friends and they thought Rees Mogg and Co look like loonies. Comparable to Major's 'bastards' with Rees Mogg the new Tony Marlow.
By defining the new enemy-and Rees Mogg is such a ludicrous caracature it's not difficult-May looks like the new normal.
The other interesting point about the 'bastards' of the 1990s is many Eurosceptics got truly hammered in 1997, they were not saved by their stand on Europe. I am thinking of Portillo, Tony Marlow, Nicholas Budgen and Michael Carttiss. I think some Tories suffered bigger swings against them because of their stand on Europe but were not defeated unlike Portillo, I can think of Theresa Gorman in that category. Europe is a fringe issue and the people within the Conservative party who are vocal on it do themselves nothing but damage.
Europe is a fringe issue? Yet 72% turned out for the EU referendum, more than voted in any general election since 1992.
Almost a million voters voted for the anti EU Referendum Party and UKIP in 1997 too, costing the Tories a number of seats they should have held
The EU referendum became a proxy vote for many other things, most notably immigration.
May has done well , this weekend over Brexit.Hope it continues. She is starting to think , what is best for the country, and not just the Conservative Party.
Really think - and hope - this is the end for Boris. This and Heathrow have trashed whatever credibility he had left. I can see him going down the Portillo route of seeing out his remaining years making niche documentaries: perhaps putting up a challenge to Mary Beard's position as the 'go to' on the topic of ancient Rome - and I would incline to bet that Mary would eventually come out victorious.
Boris is more of a Constantinople man, surely?
An Istanbullshitter
That's not a Nicaea thing to say.
(Truthful though...)
You need to Troy a bit harder than that. And Byzantine contortions won’t count: they are a Rum do.
I've told ya once, Anatolia again, geography puns aren't funny.
I'm beginning to think Mrs May might have been extraordinarily clever. I've just had lunch with some friends and they thought Rees Mogg and Co look like loonies. Comparable to Major's 'bastards' with Rees Mogg the new Tony Marlow.
By defining the new enemy-and Rees Mogg is such a ludicrous caracature it's not difficult-May looks like the new normal.
One of the most interesting moves May made was to appoint two successive heads of the ERG to ministerial posts until they elected Jacob Rees-Mogg. Perhaps she actively wanted a pantomime villain as the figurehead of the hardline Brexiteers?
May has definitely been much more cunning than most people have given her credit for.
I'm beginning to think Mrs May might have been extraordinarily clever. I've just had lunch with some friends and they thought Rees Mogg and Co look like loonies. Comparable to Major's 'bastards' with Rees Mogg the new Tony Marlow.
By defining the new enemy-and Rees Mogg is such a ludicrous caracature it's not difficult-May looks like the new normal.
The other interesting point about the 'bastards' of the 1990s is many Eurosceptics got truly hammered in 1997, they were not saved by their stand on Europe. I am thinking of Portillo, Tony Marlow, Nicholas Budgen and Michael Carttiss. I think some Tories suffered bigger swings against them because of their stand on Europe but were not defeated unlike Portillo, I can think of Theresa Gorman in that category. Europe is a fringe issue and the people within the Conservative party who are vocal on it do themselves nothing but damage.
Europe is a fringe issue? Yet 72% turned out for the EU referendum, more than voted in any general election since 1992.
Almost a million voters voted for the anti EU Referendum Party and UKIP in 1997 too, costing the Tories a number of seats they should have held
Maybe it is not a fringe issue to you given your posts but it was very fringe in 1997 and where it did take precedents in that campaign it was very negative for Tories (I know you claim to have voted Remain but I don't believe you given your posts and the knee jerk defence of Brexit - You treat the issue with the zealotry of a Rees Mogg despite its utter unravelling.). The election in 1997 was primarily based on Tory sleaze and I well remember the persistence of people like Neil Hamilton making a defeat into a rout. I voted Tory in 1997 just for the record.
I don't think you can use Referendum turnout to support your case, it was just another election and the turnout was roughly the same at the subsequent GE. Europe is an issue to a hard core elite in the Tory party but it has not been a pertinent issue to say 90% of the electorate. I find it irritating that you keep representing votes like mine in the 2017 GE for the Tories as supporting Brexit as well, I know many people who always vote Tory who do not support Brexit and voted Tory in 2017.
Yesterday I moved into the 55-64 bracket. Interesting to see that demographically that's made me even more of a remainiac than I was before.
Of course if everyone voted the same at 18 as at 65 we wouldn't have had Conservative governments for most of the last century.
Those retired leavers were remainers in 1975.
Yes, generally - with some notable exceptions - people become more conservative as they grow older. But Leave/ Remain is not a right/ left split. Rather it's related to the more cosmopolitan world view of the younger generations, that for example, is manifest in the paradigm shifts we've seen in the changing attitudes to racial and sexual difference over the last 30 years or so.
But in fact, many of the young Remain voters of 1975 had become Leave voters by 2016. A Remain lead of 22% among 18-29 year olds in 1975 had become a huge Leave lead among 59-70 year olds in 2016.
The 1975 vote followed a much more measured and considered debate, largely based around what would be best for the economy. The 2016 leave vote was, as Mr Meeks has observed many times, largely founded on an appeal to xenophobia. It has consequently polarised much more sharply those who found that objectionable against those who didn't.
I'm beginning to think Mrs May might have been extraordinarily clever. I've just had lunch with some friends and they thought Rees Mogg and Co look like loonies. Comparable to Major's 'bastards' with Rees Mogg the new Tony Marlow.
By defining the new enemy-and Rees Mogg is such a ludicrous caracature it's not difficult-May looks like the new normal.
The other interesting point about the 'bastards' of the 1990s is many Eurosceptics got truly hammered in 1997, they were not saved by their stand on Europe. I am thinking of Portillo, Tony Marlow, Nicholas Budgen and Michael Carttiss. I think some Tories suffered bigger swings against them because of their stand on Europe but were not defeated unlike Portillo, I can think of Theresa Gorman in that category. Europe is a fringe issue and the people within the Conservative party who are vocal on it do themselves nothing but damage.
Europe is a fringe issue? Yet 72% turned out for the EU referendum, more than voted in any general election since 1992.
Almost a million voters voted for the anti EU Referendum Party and UKIP in 1997 too, costing the Tories a number of seats they should have held
The EU referendum became a proxy vote for many other things, most notably immigration.
And Blair's failure to impose transition controls played a part in that too
Yesterday I moved into the 55-64 bracket. Interesting to see that demographically that's made me even more of a remainiac than I was before.
Of course if everyone voted the same at 18 as at 65 we wouldn't have had Conservative governments for most of the last century.
Those retired leavers were remainers in 1975.
Yes, generally - with some notable exceptions - people become more conservative as they grow older. But Leave/ Remain is not a right/ left split. Rather it's related to the more cosmopolitan world view of the younger generations, that for example, is manifest in the paradigm shifts we've seen in the changing attitudes to racial and sexual difference over the last 30 years or so.
But in fact, many of the young Remain voters of 1975 had become Leave voters by 2016. A Remain lead of 22% among 18-29 year olds in 1975 had become a huge Leave lead among 59-70 year olds in 2016.
What percentage of 18-29 year olds voted in '75 Vs 59-70 years old in 2016?
Yesterday I moved into the 55-64 bracket. Interesting to see that demographically that's made me even more of a remainiac than I was before.
Of course if everyone voted the same at 18 as at 65 we wouldn't have had Conservative governments for most of the last century.
Those retired leavers were remainers in 1975.
Yes, generally - with some notable exceptions - people become more conservative as they grow older. But Leave/ Remain is not a right/ left split. Rather it's related to the more cosmopolitan world view of the younger generations, that for example, is manifest in the paradigm shifts we've seen in the changing attitudes to racial and sexual difference over the last 30 years or so.
But in fact, many of the young Remain voters of 1975 had become Leave voters by 2016. A Remain lead of 22% among 18-29 year olds in 1975 had become a huge Leave lead among 59-70 year olds in 2016.
The 1975 vote followed a much more measured and considered debate, largely based around what would be best for the economy. The 2016 leave vote was, as Mr Meeks has observed many times, largely founded on an appeal to xenophobia. It has consequently polarised much more sharply those who found that objectionable against those who didn't.
Actually, public opinion shifted very heavily against EU membership for a long time after 1975. The public became rapidly disillusioned with membership. By 1979, polls had opposition to membership running at 2/1.
I'm beginning to think Mrs May might have been extraordinarily clever. I've just had lunch with some friends and they thought Rees Mogg and Co look like loonies. Comparable to Major's 'bastards' with Rees Mogg the new Tony Marlow.
By defining the new enemy-and Rees Mogg is such a ludicrous caracature it's not difficult-May looks like the new normal.
The other interesting point about the 'bastards' of the 1990s is many Eurosceptics got truly hammered in 1997, they were not saved by their stand on Europe. I am thinking of Portillo, Tony Marlow, Nicholas Budgen and Michael Carttiss. I think some Tories suffered bigger swings against them because of their stand on Europe but were not defeated unlike Portillo, I can think of Theresa Gorman in that category. Europe is a fringe issue and the people within the Conservative party who are vocal on it do themselves nothing but damage.
Europe is a fringe issue? Yet 72% turned out for the EU referendum, more than voted in any general election since 1992.
Almost a million voters voted for the anti EU Referendum Party and UKIP in 1997 too, costing the Tories a number of seats they should have held
Maybe it is not a fringe issue to you given your posts but it was very fringe in 1997 and where it did take precedents in that campaign it was very negative for Tories (I know you claim to have voted Remain but I don't believe you given your posts and the knee jerk defence of Brexit - You treat the issue with the zealotry of a Rees Mogg despite its utter unravelling.). The election in 1997 was primarily based on Tory sleaze and I well remember the persistence of people like Neil Hamilton making a defeat into a rout. I voted Tory in 1997 just for the record.
I don't think you can use Referendum turnout to support your case, it was just another election and the turnout was roughly the same at the subsequent GE. Europe is an issue to a hard core elite in the Tory party but it has not been a pertinent issue to say 90% of the electorate. I find it irritating that you keep representing votes like mine in the 2017 GE for the Tories as supporting Brexit as well, I know many people who always vote Tory who do not support Brexit and voted Tory in 2017.
If it was a fringe issue, it would not make and break governments, and UKIP would not have topped the poll in 2014.
I'm beginning to think Mrs May might have been extraordinarily clever. I've just had lunch with some friends and they thought Rees Mogg and Co look like loonies. Comparable to Major's 'bastards' with Rees Mogg the new Tony Marlow.
By defining the new enemy-and Rees Mogg is such a ludicrous caracature it's not difficult-May looks like the new normal.
The other interesting point about the 'bastards' of the 1990s is many Eurosceptics got truly hammered in 1997, they were not saved by their amage.
Europe is a fringe issue? Yet 72% turned out for the EU referendum, more than voted in any general election since 1992.
Almost a million voters voted for the anti EU Referendum Party and UKIP in 1997 too, costing the Tories a number of seats they should have held
Maybe it is not a fringe issue to you given your posts but it was very fringe in 1997 and where it did take precedents in that campaign it was very negative for Tories (I know you claim to have voted Remain but I don't believe you given your posts and the knee jerk defence of Brexit - You treat the issue with the zealotry of a Rees Mogg despite its utter unravelling.). The election in 1997 was primarily based on Tory sleaze and I well remember the persistence of people like Neil Hamilton making a defeat into a rout. I voted Tory in 1997 just for the record.
I don't think you can use Referendum turnout to support your case, it was just another election and the turnout was roughly the same at the subsequent GE. Europe is an issue to a hard core elite in the Tory party but it has not been a pertinent issue to say 90% of the electorate. I find it irritating that you keep representing votes like mine in the 2017 GE for the Tories as supporting Brexit as well, I know many people who always vote Tory who do not support Brexit and voted Tory in 2017.
It was more a fringe issue in 1997 though still important for a significant minority, now after the EU referendum Brexit is the biggest issue in most polls alongside the NHS. I could not care less whether you disbelieve I voted Remain, I even support May's deal with reservations but that does not mean I don't respect the Leave vote.
Turnout at the 2017 general election was 68%, 4% down on the 72% who turned out at the 2016 EU referendum. A number of Labour voters voted Leave just as many Tories voted Remain, does not change the fact most Labour voters voted Remain and most Tory voters voted Leave
May has done well , this weekend over Brexit.Hope it continues. She is starting to think , what is best for the country, and not just the Conservative Party.
Really think - and hope - this is the end for Boris. This and Heathrow have trashed whatever credibility he had left. I can see him going down the Portillo route of seeing out his remaining years making niche documentaries: perhaps putting up a challenge to Mary Beard's position as the 'go to' on the topic of ancient Rome - and I would incline to bet that Mary would eventually come out victorious.
Boris is more of a Constantinople man, surely?
An Istanbullshitter
That's not a Nicaea thing to say.
(Truthful though...)
You need to Troy a bit harder than that. And Byzantine contortions won’t count: they are a Rum do.
I've told ya once, Anatolia again, geography puns aren't funny.
Yesterday I moved into the 55-64 bracket. Interesting to see that demographically that's made me even more of a remainiac than I was before.
Of course if everyone voted the same at 18 as at 65 we wouldn't have had Conservative governments for most of the last century.
Those retired leavers were remainers in 1975.
Yes, generally - with some notable exceptions - people become more conservative as they grow older. But Leave/ Remain is not a right/ left split. Rather it's related to the more cosmopolitan world view of the younger generations, that for example, is manifest in the paradigm shifts we've seen in the changing attitudes to racial and sexual difference over the last 30 years or so.
But in fact, many of the young Remain voters of 1975 had become Leave voters by 2016. A Remain lead of 22% among 18-29 year olds in 1975 had become a huge Leave lead among 59-70 year olds in 2016.
What percentage of 18-29 year olds voted in '75 Vs 59-70 years old in 2016?
I'm not sure, although overall turnout in 1975, at 66%, was lower than turnout in 2016. I imagine that more of this age cohort would have voted in 2016 than in 1975.
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May's offering is a piss-poor cousin of just being in the EU.
Real Brexit, as has now been made clear after months of attempting cakeism, involves leaving the SM and CU and complete and utter economic mess.
I was on the motorway this afternoon, so reduced to listening to it on the radio, but pretty dramatic nonetheless. And nice to make a profit.
And there it is by magic.
But it least nods to the awareness that once eaten, cake may be gone.
After last World Cup went to Poland, then back to Ger, then to RoI, then back to Poland. Scotland missed numerous opportunities to become world champions.
In reality, his position was the classic old Eurosceptic stance captured in the phrase “common market good; political union bad.”
Sounds a lot like May’s proposal.
It's possible I put in the points values wrong last time, but prior to the UK I had it Perez 25 and Ocon 17. Ocon scored 6 points, so he should be on 23, I think.
Hmm. Did I make an error last time? Entirely possible, but a bit odd.
Almost a million voters voted for the anti EU Referendum Party and UKIP in 1997 too, costing the Tories a number of seats they should have held
If you are a pensioner and voting Labour you are likely to be either relatively poor or an ageing hippie.
The only time the Tories win the youth vote or Labour win the pensioner vote is landslide years like 1983 or 1997
http://enormo-haddock.blogspot.com/2018/07/uk-post-race-analysis-2018.html
May has definitely been much more cunning than most people have given her credit for.
I don't think you can use Referendum turnout to support your case, it was just another election and the turnout was roughly the same at the subsequent GE. Europe is an issue to a hard core elite in the Tory party but it has not been a pertinent issue to say 90% of the electorate. I find it irritating that you keep representing votes like mine in the 2017 GE for the Tories as supporting Brexit as well, I know many people who always vote Tory who do not support Brexit and voted Tory in 2017.
In 1976 those aged over 65 a staggering 80% voted in favour of membership.
Turnout at the 2017 general election was 68%, 4% down on the 72% who turned out at the 2016 EU referendum. A number of Labour voters voted Leave just as many Tories voted Remain, does not change the fact most Labour voters voted Remain and most Tory voters voted Leave
This just can’t be beat
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