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    FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 76,285
    Jesus christ, this heat needs to stop. Just come into my office to do some work and it is friggin melting in here.
  • Options
    FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 76,285
    edited July 2018
    SeanT said:

    SeanT said:

    ON topic, England are in the semi final of the World Cup, the sun has been shining on Primrose Hill for about six week, I'm drinking a VERY fine Meursault, and tomorrow I fly to Annecy - as Ye Official Times Luxury Travel Correspondent - to stay in three of the best gastronomic hotels in the French Alps, including Perebise


    https://www.tripadvisor.co.uk/Hotel_Review-g187270-d233714-Reviews-Auberge_Du_Pere_Bise_Jean_Sulpice-Talloires_Haute_Savoie_Auvergne_Rhone_Alpes.html

    and Montenvers

    https://www.booking.com/hotel/fr/terminale-neige-refuge-du-montenvers.en-gb.html


    and - I nearly forgot to mention - I just tupped my adorable 22 year old wife, twice, without taking off my Crockett and Jones.

    Fuck Brexit. Fuck Politics, Life just PEAKED. It's all downhill from here. Let's hope it's a slalom

    You really should stop downplaying your life and tell us how it really is...how do you manage the dishes rota, what about the weekly shop (I hear the Waitrose in Camden is closing down, which must be a bit of shitter)...when do you fit in the ironing?
    WAITROSE IS CLOSING?????

    That IS a bit shit. Hmm.
    http://www.hamhigh.co.uk/news/waitrose-to-close-camden-high-street-store-1-5579821

    Yeah you are getting an Aldi instead....I bet you can't wait. I would probably move if I was forced to shop trade Waitrose for Aldi.
  • Options
    DavidLDavidL Posts: 51,212
    rcs1000 said:

    Ishmael_Z said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Elliot said:

    Xenon said:

    Having not been following Brexit too closely recently, can someone summarise the current plan for me.

    Is it just concede everything to the EU and basically have to do everything that they tell us?

    Freedom of movement? Ended.
    Common Agricultural Policy? Exited.
    Common Fisheries Policy? Exited.
    European Court of Justice writ? Exited.
    Common External Tariff? Exited.
    EU regulation? Exited for services (85% of the economy, traded globally), maintained for goods (15% of the economy, mainly traded regionally).

    For smart Brexiteers (Gove, Raab etc) this is a great deal. For stupid Brexiteers (Boris, Nigel) it is worse than EU membership.
    Services are not 85% of trade, they are much, much smaller. Services are much less likely to be imported /exported than goods. You are confusing % of economy with % of international trade.
    Taken me ages to find a number, but it says here services are 45% of exports - so "much, much smaller" overstates it: https://tradingeconomics.com/united-kingdom/exports
    45% is much, much smaller than 85%.
    Still considerably higher than I would have expected though. I am really struggling to see what is in a FTA with the EU for goods only where we have a horrendous deficit without services where we have a surplus, albeit one that leaves a very substantial deficit overall.
  • Options
    TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 41,282
    SeanT said:

    ON topic, England are in the semi final of the World Cup, the sun has been shining on Primrose Hill for about six week, I'm drinking a VERY fine Meursault, and tomorrow I fly to Annecy - as Ye Official Times Luxury Travel Correspondent - to stay in three of the best gastronomic hotels in the French Alps, including Perebise


    https://www.tripadvisor.co.uk/Hotel_Review-g187270-d233714-Reviews-Auberge_Du_Pere_Bise_Jean_Sulpice-Talloires_Haute_Savoie_Auvergne_Rhone_Alpes.html

    and Montenvers

    https://www.booking.com/hotel/fr/terminale-neige-refuge-du-montenvers.en-gb.html


    and - I nearly forgot to mention - I just tupped my adorable 22 year old wife, twice, without taking off my Crockett and Jones.

    Fuck Brexit. Fuck Politics, Life just PEAKED. It's all downhill from here. Let's hope it's a slalom

    Not very friendly environment to watch the match in?
  • Options
    XenonXenon Posts: 471
    SeanT said:

    Xenon said:

    Talking of (former) Kippers, you got to love this.

    We get told Muslims must integrate and well when we do, we get this.

    https://twitter.com/AMDWaters/status/1015479292984164352

    To be fair the hate speech laws are pretty terrifying, especially when it comes to Islam.
    I hate. loathe and despise conservative Islam, and I think Muslims that follow its tenets are either deluded morons or actively wicked, and they should leave the country, along with their vile, homophobic and misogynistic creed, which has no place in a civilised liberal democracy.

    Is Scotland a civilised country? Dunno, but Mr Yousaf, I hope to be in Scotland in August so you can arrest me.

    Lucky you added the word "conservative" in there.
  • Options
    XenonXenon Posts: 471
    So can we sign free trade agreements with May's new deal or is it really a complete turd?
  • Options
    FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 76,285
    edited July 2018
    Another shout out for the Showtime / BBC 4 part documentary following NYT coverage of Trump since he was elected. It is a fascinating view behind the curtain and how the liberal media elite have lost touch with middle America. They are totally confused by the fact there is this massive segment of their country that doesn't think like them at all.
  • Options
    DavidLDavidL Posts: 51,212

    Jesus christ, this heat needs to stop. Just come into my office to do some work and it is friggin melting in here.

    It's getting a little boring isn't it?

    I am off to court tomorrow wearing a wing collar, a waistcoat, a tailcoat, a court gown, woolen trousers and a horsehair wig just in case any heat was trying to escape from my head. I am sure there must be a human rights issue here somewhere.
  • Options
    PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 75,914
    Just checked - my house passes @rcs1000 4.4% yield test. Happy days.
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    brendan16brendan16 Posts: 2,315

    Another shout out for the Showtime / BBC 4 part documentary following NYT coverage of Trump since he was elected. It is a fascinating view behind the curtain and how the liberal media elite have lost touch with middle America. They are totally confused by the fact there is this massive segment of their country that doesn't think like them at all.

    I think we may have a similar issue here!
  • Options
    MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 50,100
    SeanT said:

    ON topic, England are in the semi final of the World Cup, the sun has been shining on Primrose Hill for about six week, I'm drinking a VERY fine Meursault, and tomorrow I fly to Annecy - as Ye Official Times Luxury Travel Correspondent - to stay in three of the best gastronomic hotels in the French Alps, including Perebise


    https://www.tripadvisor.co.uk/Hotel_Review-g187270-d233714-Reviews-Auberge_Du_Pere_Bise_Jean_Sulpice-Talloires_Haute_Savoie_Auvergne_Rhone_Alpes.html

    and Montenvers

    https://www.booking.com/hotel/fr/terminale-neige-refuge-du-montenvers.en-gb.html


    and - I nearly forgot to mention - I just tupped my adorable 22 year old wife, twice, without taking off my Crockett and Jones.

    Fuck Brexit. Fuck Politics, Life just PEAKED. It's all downhill from here. Let's hope it's a slalom

    Annecy is delightful. Although you've missed the animation festival this year.
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    ExiledInScotlandExiledInScotland Posts: 1,505
    edited July 2018

    SeanT said:

    SeanT said:

    ON topic, England are in the semi final of the World Cup, the sun has been shining on Primrose Hill for about six week, I'm drinking a VERY fine Meursault, and tomorrow I fly to Annecy - as Ye Official Times Luxury Travel Correspondent - to stay in three of the best gastronomic hotels in the French Alps, including Perebise


    https://www.tripadvisor.co.uk/Hotel_Review-g187270-d233714-Reviews-Auberge_Du_Pere_Bise_Jean_Sulpice-Talloires_Haute_Savoie_Auvergne_Rhone_Alpes.html

    and Montenvers

    https://www.booking.com/hotel/fr/terminale-neige-refuge-du-montenvers.en-gb.html


    and - I nearly forgot to mention - I just tupped my adorable 22 year old wife, twice, without taking off my Crockett and Jones.

    Fuck Brexit. Fuck Politics, Life just PEAKED. It's all downhill from here. Let's hope it's a slalom

    You really should stop downplaying your life and tell us how it really is...how do you manage the dishes rota, what about the weekly shop (I hear the Waitrose in Camden is closing down, which must be a bit of shitter)...when do you fit in the ironing?
    WAITROSE IS CLOSING?????

    That IS a bit shit. Hmm.
    http://www.hamhigh.co.uk/news/waitrose-to-close-camden-high-street-store-1-5579821

    Yeah you are getting an Aldi instead....I bet you can't wait. I would probably move if I was forced to shop trade Waitrose for Aldi.
    We blind tasted the kids on food from Aldi and Waitrose. They preferred the Aldi food - our monthly food bill is now down 40%. Some of the red wines at £5/bottle also won out in blind tastings for my parents who know their stuff. I was a bit snobby but I got over myself. You should give it a try.

    [Edit: rephrased my last sentence as I didn't mean to imply anyone was snobby]
  • Options
    FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 76,285
    edited July 2018

    SeanT said:

    SeanT said:

    ON topic, England are in the semi final of the World Cup, the sun has been shining on Primrose Hill for about six week, I'm drinking a VERY fine Meursault, and tomorrow I fly to Annecy - as Ye Official Times Luxury Travel Correspondent - to stay in three of the best gastronomic hotels in the French Alps, including Perebise


    https://www.tripadvisor.co.uk/Hotel_Review-g187270-d233714-Reviews-Auberge_Du_Pere_Bise_Jean_Sulpice-Talloires_Haute_Savoie_Auvergne_Rhone_Alpes.html

    and Montenvers

    https://www.booking.com/hotel/fr/terminale-neige-refuge-du-montenvers.en-gb.html


    and - I nearly forgot to mention - I just tupped my adorable 22 year old wife, twice, without taking off my Crockett and Jones.

    Fuck Brexit. Fuck Politics, Life just PEAKED. It's all downhill from here. Let's hope it's a slalom

    You really should stop downplaying your life and tell us how it really is...how do you manage the dishes rota, what about the weekly shop (I hear the Waitrose in Camden is closing down, which must be a bit of shitter)...when do you fit in the ironing?
    WAITROSE IS CLOSING?????

    That IS a bit shit. Hmm.
    http://www.hamhigh.co.uk/news/waitrose-to-close-camden-high-street-store-1-5579821

    Yeah you are getting an Aldi instead....I bet you can't wait. I would probably move if I was forced to shop trade Waitrose for Aldi.
    We blind tasted the kids on food from Aldi and Waitrose. They preferred the Aldi food - our monthly food bill is now down 40%. Some of the red wines at £5/bottle also won out in blind tastings for my parents who know their stuff. Don't be snobby and save yourself some money.
    My comment is of course somewhat tongue in cheek. I actually get quite a lot of my shopping from CostCo. However, I do like the customer service in Waitrose, it is second to none.
  • Options
    Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 60,272
    brendan16 said:

    Another shout out for the Showtime / BBC 4 part documentary following NYT coverage of Trump since he was elected. It is a fascinating view behind the curtain and how the liberal media elite have lost touch with middle America. They are totally confused by the fact there is this massive segment of their country that doesn't think like them at all.

    I think we may have a similar issue here!
    We really do - the London based media circus is alienating large swathes of the Country
  • Options
    kle4kle4 Posts: 91,721
    DavidL said:

    Jesus christ, this heat needs to stop. Just come into my office to do some work and it is friggin melting in here.

    It's getting a little boring isn't it?

    I am off to court tomorrow wearing a wing collar, a waistcoat, a tailcoat, a court gown, woolen trousers and a horsehair wig just in case any heat was trying to escape from my head. I am sure there must be a human rights issue here somewhere.
    If only you knew some lawyers who could take action on that issue...

    While countless human generations have had to deal with such heat, and still do in many places even without air con, being in an office the past few weeks where the air con has been bust, it has come up more than once that it seems likely if animals were in such conditions it would cause more of an outrage.

    (Similar thoughts were expressed on the train today - literally standing room only, it seemed the case it surely must be over capacity, but they never seem to care about such things on trains.
  • Options
    FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 76,285

    brendan16 said:

    Another shout out for the Showtime / BBC 4 part documentary following NYT coverage of Trump since he was elected. It is a fascinating view behind the curtain and how the liberal media elite have lost touch with middle America. They are totally confused by the fact there is this massive segment of their country that doesn't think like them at all.

    I think we may have a similar issue here!
    We really do - the London based media circus is alienating large swathes of the Country
    I think the difference is that the London media know that they have quite different outlook to say Stoke man, but I don't think these NYT journos had no a clue (until Trump) that even those in big cities in middle America really don't have the same opinion of huge number of issues.
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    PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 75,914
    Have you all watched @rcs1000 latest video - essential.
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    AlistairAlistair Posts: 23,670
    HYUFD said:

    Scott_P said:
    She is replacing freedom of movement with a 'mobility framework.' It is what that 'mobility framework' represents that is key
    Freedom of movement. Hope that helps.
  • Options
    brendan16brendan16 Posts: 2,315
    edited July 2018
    Xenon said:

    So can we sign free trade agreements with May's new deal or is it really a complete turd?

    Who can say - it depends on what interpretation of the deal you believe!

    Norway manages to arrange its own trade deals but they are mostly smaller nations. It for example has its own trade deal with both the Palestinian Territories and Israel - do they adhere to a common rule book?

    I think it will be possible but not for example with the US whose standards and requirements are likely to conflict with the EUs and other major players.

    The Aussies have stated we have shown interest in being potential members of the TPP - which is odd since we don't border the Pacific - and they would probably support our application. But that would require us to have an independent customs policy.

    https://www.regjeringen.no/no/tema/naringsliv/handel/nfd---innsiktsartikler/frihandelsavtaler/norways-free-trade-agreements/id457017/

    https://www.sbs.com.au/news/uk-has-real-interest-in-joining-tpp-trade-pact
  • Options
    DavidLDavidL Posts: 51,212
    kle4 said:

    DavidL said:

    Jesus christ, this heat needs to stop. Just come into my office to do some work and it is friggin melting in here.

    It's getting a little boring isn't it?

    I am off to court tomorrow wearing a wing collar, a waistcoat, a tailcoat, a court gown, woolen trousers and a horsehair wig just in case any heat was trying to escape from my head. I am sure there must be a human rights issue here somewhere.
    If only you knew some lawyers who could take action on that issue...

    While countless human generations have had to deal with such heat, and still do in many places even without air con, being in an office the past few weeks where the air con has been bust, it has come up more than once that it seems likely if animals were in such conditions it would cause more of an outrage.

    (Similar thoughts were expressed on the train today - literally standing room only, it seemed the case it surely must be over capacity, but they never seem to care about such things on trains.
    Extended court hearings in this heat are brutal. I did a trial that lasted 2 weeks in Court 9 of the Court of Session about 15 years ago now. It has a huge glass cupola with the result that when the sun came over we melted. I lost over a stone in the 2 weeks. As you say, if I had been employed as opposed to self employed it would have been a breach of the Health and Safety at Work Act.
  • Options

    SeanT said:

    SeanT said:

    ON topic, England are in the semi final of the World Cup, the sun has been shining on Primrose Hill for about six week, I'm drinking a VERY fine Meursault, and tomorrow I fly to Annecy - as Ye Official Times Luxury Travel Correspondent - to stay in three of the best gastronomic hotels in the French Alps, including Perebise


    https://www.tripadvisor.co.uk/Hotel_Review-g187270-d233714-Reviews-Auberge_Du_Pere_Bise_Jean_Sulpice-Talloires_Haute_Savoie_Auvergne_Rhone_Alpes.html

    and Montenvers

    https://www.booking.com/hotel/fr/terminale-neige-refuge-du-montenvers.en-gb.html


    and - I nearly forgot to mention - I just tupped my adorable 22 year old wife, twice, without taking off my Crockett and Jones.

    Fuck Brexit. Fuck Politics, Life just PEAKED. It's all downhill from here. Let's hope it's a slalom

    You really should stop downplaying your life and tell us how it really is...how do you manage the dishes rota, what about the weekly shop (I hear the Waitrose in Camden is closing down, which must be a bit of shitter)...when do you fit in the ironing?
    WAITROSE IS CLOSING?????

    That IS a bit shit. Hmm.
    http://www.hamhigh.co.uk/news/waitrose-to-close-camden-high-street-store-1-5579821

    Yeah you are getting an Aldi instead....I bet you can't wait. I would probably move if I was forced to shop trade Waitrose for Aldi.
    We blind tasted the kids on food from Aldi and Waitrose. They preferred the Aldi food - our monthly food bill is now down 40%. Some of the red wines at £5/bottle also won out in blind tastings for my parents who know their stuff. Don't be snobby and save yourself some money.
    My comment is of course somewhat tongue in cheek. I actually get quite a lot of my shopping from CostCo. However, I do like the customer service in Waitrose, it is second to none.
    The CostCo own brand dry chicken and rice dog food is really good for our lab. High protein content, well tolerated by dogs who can be a bit sensitive. Our vet told me that it was better that the branded food they sold in the vet practice. The bulk saving on dog food more than saves the CostCo annual membership fee.
  • Options
    Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 60,272

    brendan16 said:

    Another shout out for the Showtime / BBC 4 part documentary following NYT coverage of Trump since he was elected. It is a fascinating view behind the curtain and how the liberal media elite have lost touch with middle America. They are totally confused by the fact there is this massive segment of their country that doesn't think like them at all.

    I think we may have a similar issue here!
    We really do - the London based media circus is alienating large swathes of the Country
    I think the difference is that the London media know that they have quite different outlook to say Stoke man, but I don't think these NYT journos had no a clue (until Trump) that even those in big cities in middle America really don't have the same opinion of huge number of issues.
    The fact the labour leader, his shadow COE, home secretary, and foreign secretary all come from an elite London Metropolitan background and within a few miles of each other is just so out of touch with the ordinary people
  • Options
    DavidLDavidL Posts: 51,212
    SeanT said:

    Xenon said:

    SeanT said:

    Xenon said:

    Talking of (former) Kippers, you got to love this.

    We get told Muslims must integrate and well when we do, we get this.

    https://twitter.com/AMDWaters/status/1015479292984164352

    To be fair the hate speech laws are pretty terrifying, especially when it comes to Islam.
    I hate. loathe and despise conservative Islam, and I think Muslims that follow its tenets are either deluded morons or actively wicked, and they should leave the country, along with their vile, homophobic and misogynistic creed, which has no place in a civilised liberal democracy.

    Is Scotland a civilised country? Dunno, but Mr Yousaf, I hope to be in Scotland in August so you can arrest me.

    Lucky you added the word "conservative" in there.
    I am similarly tolerant of moderate Nazis, as against the conservative variety.
    A moderate Nazi. Are those the ones who only want to gas the unproductive members of society?
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    RobDRobD Posts: 58,961
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    kle4kle4 Posts: 91,721
    Scott_P said:
    If even united Cabinet agreement cannot stop a proposal from unravelling, then what the hell good was it?

    I guess the only question is if the rebels wait to see if the EU will reject first before they pull the trigger. If the EU does then they have 2 reasons to call a vote - that her proposal was unacceptable and it was stupid anyway - and if the EU looks receptive they can still push ahead on the basis that it is unacceptable.
  • Options
    brendan16brendan16 Posts: 2,315
    edited July 2018
    Alistair said:

    HYUFD said:

    Scott_P said:
    She is replacing freedom of movement with a 'mobility framework.' It is what that 'mobility framework' represents that is key
    Freedom of movement. Hope that helps.
    Well sort of freedom of movement for fruit packers to come here at least - for a few weeks - based on what Gove stated this morning. But will the fruit pickers be sent home afterwards - and how will that be enforced.

    But in terms for UK retirees wanting to retire to the Costas or the south of France - presumably not unless they study or work?

    It's all a bit vague really?!! Will the mobility framework apply both ways with the other 27 members, is entitlement to welfare benefits and the NHS included or not and is it just for work (a job offer) and study or wider (retirees) and can you bring your extended family too?
  • Options
    kle4kle4 Posts: 91,721
    SeanT said:

    TOPPING said:

    SeanT said:

    ON topic, England are in the semi final of the World Cup, the sun has been shining on Primrose Hill for about six week, I'm drinking a VERY fine Meursault, and tomorrow I fly to Annecy - as Ye Official Times Luxury Travel Correspondent - to stay in three of the best gastronomic hotels in the French Alps, including Perebise


    https://www.tripadvisor.co.uk/Hotel_Review-g187270-d233714-Reviews-Auberge_Du_Pere_Bise_Jean_Sulpice-Talloires_Haute_Savoie_Auvergne_Rhone_Alpes.html

    and Montenvers

    https://www.booking.com/hotel/fr/terminale-neige-refuge-du-montenvers.en-gb.html


    and - I nearly forgot to mention - I just tupped my adorable 22 year old wife, twice, without taking off my Crockett and Jones.

    Fuck Brexit. Fuck Politics, Life just PEAKED. It's all downhill from here. Let's hope it's a slalom

    Not very friendly environment to watch the match in?
    C'est vrait.

    I watched the Sweden match at my older daughter's school summer fair, in Muswell Hill, and it was delightful. Very civilised and lots of Pimms and a big screen for the Mums and Dads and all the kids got excited, just a lovely feeling (genuinely).

    I know it is schmaltz (and mostly to do with the weather) but Southgate's team have managed to produce a feelgood buzz to rank alongside Euro 96, yet even better (because World Cup, and nicer team). Even my Corbynite football-hating (or ignoring) wife is loving the vibe.

    Let us enjoy it while we can. I think we should scrape through against Croatia - it will be close - but we will very likely lose to France (who will just about best Belgium).

    I remember the day after we went out of euro 96, the hot spell ended, and it poured and drizzled for about a year. Or so it felt.

    Hm.
    Ah, Euro 96 - there were tears at my primary school the next day, I can tell you that much for certain.
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    Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    Brexiteers engaging in some perambulator toy evacuation...

    https://twitter.com/Jgs_x/status/1016073512061231105
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    FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 76,285
    When the English players talk about not even been born when England last got to a world cup semi-final makes me feel old, very very old.
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    TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 41,282
    brendan16 said:

    Xenon said:

    So can we sign free trade agreements with May's new deal or is it really a complete turd?

    Who can say - it depends on what interpretation of the deal you believe!

    Norway manages to arrange its own trade deals but they are mostly smaller nations. It for example has its own trade deal with both the Palestinian Territories and Israel - do they adhere to a common rule book?

    I think it will be possible but not for example with the US whose standards and requirements are likely to conflict with the EUs and other major players.

    The Aussies have stated we have shown interest in being potential members of the TPP - which is odd since we don't border the Pacific - and they would probably support our application. But that would require us to have an independent customs policy.

    https://www.regjeringen.no/no/tema/naringsliv/handel/nfd---innsiktsartikler/frihandelsavtaler/norways-free-trade-agreements/id457017/

    https://www.sbs.com.au/news/uk-has-real-interest-in-joining-tpp-trade-pact
    EU Member Germany's biggest export destination? The very same US of A that we are so keen to sign a trade deal with which we now believe may be at risk because, er, we will be leaving the EU.
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    kle4kle4 Posts: 91,721
    Scott_P said:

    Brexiteers engaging in some perambulator toy evacuation...

    https://twitter.com/Jgs_x/status/1016073512061231105

    Neither of those comparisons are sensible.
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    Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 60,272
    kle4 said:

    Scott_P said:

    Brexiteers engaging in some perambulator toy evacuation...

    https://twitter.com/Jgs_x/status/1016073512061231105

    Neither of those comparisons are sensible.
    Who suggested Brexiteers are sensible
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    kle4kle4 Posts: 91,721
    SeanT said:

    kle4 said:

    Scott_P said:
    If even united Cabinet agreement cannot stop a proposal from unravelling, then what the hell good was it?

    I guess the only question is if the rebels wait to see if the EU will reject first before they pull the trigger. If the EU does then they have 2 reasons to call a vote - that her proposal was unacceptable and it was stupid anyway - and if the EU looks receptive they can still push ahead on the basis that it is unacceptable.
    I am coming to the conclusion that we need a second vote. But it should be, again, Leave or Remain.
    That I am uncertain on. But that parliament cannot agree, and an election seems unlikely to solve political deadlock, opens up some kind of second vote as at least some way to a conclusion being reached, or at least more likely than the alternative. At the very least deal or no deal seems like it needs to be considered.
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    kle4kle4 Posts: 91,721

    kle4 said:

    Scott_P said:

    Brexiteers engaging in some perambulator toy evacuation...

    https://twitter.com/Jgs_x/status/1016073512061231105

    Neither of those comparisons are sensible.
    Who suggested Brexiteers are sensible
    The response to the initial tweet does not seem likely to have been a Brexiteer. And neither was sensible as a comparison to our actual political situation.
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    JonathanJonathan Posts: 20,901
    SeanT said:

    kle4 said:

    Scott_P said:
    If even united Cabinet agreement cannot stop a proposal from unravelling, then what the hell good was it?

    I guess the only question is if the rebels wait to see if the EU will reject first before they pull the trigger. If the EU does then they have 2 reasons to call a vote - that her proposal was unacceptable and it was stupid anyway - and if the EU looks receptive they can still push ahead on the basis that it is unacceptable.
    I am coming to the conclusion that we need a second vote. But it should be, again, Leave or Remain.
    If the result is remain 52:48, then what? A third vote?
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    So the Danish are trying to force new immigrants to mix into society and not have ghettos by 2030. As I understand the article, the Guardian are saying that this is exposing Muslims to similar attitudes to the antisemitism that pushed the Jews into ghettos. Surely it's the exact opposite?
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    kle4kle4 Posts: 91,721
    Jonathan said:

    SeanT said:

    kle4 said:

    Scott_P said:
    If even united Cabinet agreement cannot stop a proposal from unravelling, then what the hell good was it?

    I guess the only question is if the rebels wait to see if the EU will reject first before they pull the trigger. If the EU does then they have 2 reasons to call a vote - that her proposal was unacceptable and it was stupid anyway - and if the EU looks receptive they can still push ahead on the basis that it is unacceptable.
    I am coming to the conclusion that we need a second vote. But it should be, again, Leave or Remain.
    If the result is remain 52:48, then what? A third vote?
    And therein lies the conundrum, and part of why I lean toward if there is another vote it should be on the deal, or going no deal.

    But it would be silly to think that would magically solve our divisions and problems, unfortunately. But then what could?
  • Options
    TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 41,282
    SeanT said:

    kle4 said:

    SeanT said:

    TOPPING said:

    SeanT said:

    ON topic, England are in the semi final of the World Cup, the sun has been shining on Primrose Hill for about six week, I'm drinking a VERY fine Meursault, and tomorrow I fly to Annecy - as Ye Official Times Luxury Travel Correspondent - to stay in three of the best gastronomic hotels in the French Alps, including Perebise


    https://www.tripadvisor.co.uk/Hotel_Review-g187270-d233714-Reviews-Auberge_Du_Pere_Bise_Jean_Sulpice-Talloires_Haute_Savoie_Auvergne_Rhone_Alpes.html

    and Montenvers

    https://www.booking.com/hotel/fr/terminale-neige-refuge-du-montenvers.en-gb.html


    and - I nearly forgot to mention - I just tupped my adorable 22 year old wife, twice, without taking off my Crockett and Jones.

    Fuck Brexit. Fuck Politics, Life just PEAKED. It's all downhill from here. Let's hope it's a slalom

    Not very friendly environment to watch the match in?
    C'est vrait.

    I watched the Sweden match at my older daughter's school summer fair, in Muswell Hill, and it was delightful. Very civilised and lots of Pimms and a big screen for the Mums and Dads and all the kids got excited, just a lovely feeling (genuinely).

    I know it is schmaltz (and mostly to do with the weather) but Southgate's team have managed to produce a feelgood buzz to rank alongside Euro 96, yet even better (because World Cup, and nicer team). Even my Corbynite football-hating (or ignoring) wife is loving the vibe.

    Let us enjoy it while we can. I think we should scrape through against Croatia - it will be close - but we will very likely lose to France (who will just about best Belgium).

    I remember the day after we went out of euro 96, the hot spell ended, and it poured and drizzled for about a year. Or so it felt.

    Hm.
    Ah, Euro 96 - there were tears at my primary school the next day, I can tell you that much for certain.
    Euro 96 felt so terrible - to me - age 30-something at the time - because it really DID feel like FOOTBALL WAS COMING HOME - the tournament was in England, and centred at Wembley, we were clearly a dazzling team (remember beating Holland 4-1?), and, in Gazza, we had the single best player in the tournament.

    Yet we didn't win??? It felt historically unGodly. Something went morally wrong. And the fucking Germans won, or the Austrians, or the Poles, who cares, they're all in the EU and scum.

    HARD BREXIT NOW

    *drinks more Meursault*
    Nyetimber, shurely.
  • Options
    YorkcityYorkcity Posts: 4,382
    edited July 2018

    When the English players talk about not even been born when England last got to a world cup semi-final makes me feel old, very very old.

    Anyone who can remember England wining in 1966, has to be about 60 or over 60.
  • Options
    RecidivistRecidivist Posts: 4,679
    Yorkcity said:

    When the English players talk about not even been born when England last got to a world cup semi-final makes me feel old, very very old.

    Anyone who can remember England wining in 1966, has to be about 60 or over 60.
    Well some of us are, but I think he meant 1990.
  • Options
    Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 60,272

    Yorkcity said:

    When the English players talk about not even been born when England last got to a world cup semi-final makes me feel old, very very old.

    Anyone who can remember England wining in 1966, has to be about 60 or over 60.
    Well some of us are, but I think he meant 1990.
    I am 74 and will never forget it
  • Options
    Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 49,261
    SeanT said:

    Jonathan said:

    SeanT said:

    kle4 said:

    Scott_P said:
    If even united Cabinet agreement cannot stop a proposal from unravelling, then what the hell good was it?

    I guess the only question is if the rebels wait to see if the EU will reject first before they pull the trigger. If the EU does then they have 2 reasons to call a vote - that her proposal was unacceptable and it was stupid anyway - and if the EU looks receptive they can still push ahead on the basis that it is unacceptable.
    I am coming to the conclusion that we need a second vote. But it should be, again, Leave or Remain.
    If the result is remain 52:48, then what? A third vote?
    We accept whatever it says, which by definition (I think) will be a pretty hard Brexit or a pretty hard Remain.

    Right now this is like the shape of England after the Civil War being decided by a bunch of mediocre, careerist lawyers on a ketamine bender. At least in the Civil Wars they had the Putney Debates to decide what KIND of England they wanted after they killed the king.

    That's what we need. The PUTNEY DEBATES 2.0. Then another vote. And end.

    As I recall the Civil War had two phases.....
    Unfortunately, the King's son got the throne back in 1660...
  • Options
    YorkcityYorkcity Posts: 4,382

    Yorkcity said:

    When the English players talk about not even been born when England last got to a world cup semi-final makes me feel old, very very old.

    Anyone who can remember England wining in 1966, has to be about 60 or over 60.
    Well some of us are, but I think he meant 1990.
    Yes I know , 28 years ago , most of the England squad are under 28.
  • Options
    YorkcityYorkcity Posts: 4,382

    Yorkcity said:

    When the English players talk about not even been born when England last got to a world cup semi-final makes me feel old, very very old.

    Anyone who can remember England wining in 1966, has to be about 60 or over 60.
    Well some of us are, but I think he meant 1990.
    I am 74 and will never forget it
    If England win it , will Gareth Southgate , get a knighthood like Sir Alf Ramsey ?
  • Options
    Tim_BTim_B Posts: 7,669
    Yorkcity said:

    When the English players talk about not even been born when England last got to a world cup semi-final makes me feel old, very very old.

    Anyone who can remember England wining in 1966, has to be about 60 or over 60.
    I remember. I was 15 and visiting the US for the first time. The game was shown on tape delay, and they cut 30 minutes from the game because there was no scoring.
  • Options
    kle4kle4 Posts: 91,721
    SeanT said:

    Jonathan said:

    SeanT said:

    kle4 said:

    Scott_P said:
    If even united Cabinet agreement cannot stop a proposal from unravelling, then what the hell good was it?

    I guess the only question is if the rebels wait to see if the EU will reject first before they pull the trigger. If the EU does then they have 2 reasons to call a vote - that her proposal was unacceptable and it was stupid anyway - and if the EU looks receptive they can still push ahead on the basis that it is unacceptable.
    I am coming to the conclusion that we need a second vote. But it should be, again, Leave or Remain.
    If the result is remain 52:48, then what? A third vote?
    We accept whatever it says, which by definition (I think) will be a pretty hard Brexit or a pretty hard Remain.

    Right now this is like the shape of England after the Civil War being decided by a bunch of mediocre, careerist lawyers on a ketamine bender. At least in the Civil Wars they had the Putney Debates to decide what KIND of England they wanted after they killed the king.

    That's what we need. The PUTNEY DEBATES 2.0. Then another vote. And end.

    As I recall the Civil War had two phases.....
    The Putney Debates happened before the decision to kill the king was taken (some of those arguing against being harsher with him ended up being the ones taking that decision) and they sure hadn't agreed on what kind of England they wanted after the King was killed (hence the multiple attempts at constitutions/offerings of the crown/direct military rule etc), and the Civil War had more than two phases, even if we only focus on the English parts of the whole conflict.

    Theresa May as Thomas Fairfax? Leading the armies but not politically in control, to be overtaken by more driven and passionate underlings?
    Michael Gove as John Lambert? Able and intelligent, but never able to put his ideas fully into practice, shifting allegiances and making one last play for the top job only to fail?
    Boris Johnson as George Monck? Fought on one side, then the other, then remained aloof until a final confrontation in bringing things back full circle to where it all began?


    (for any historians, these comparisons are not serious)
  • Options
    DavidLDavidL Posts: 51,212
    edited July 2018
    Pulpstar said:

    Have you all watched @rcs1000 latest video - essential.

    Yes, very good again. What I am not entirely sure I get is what the imputed rent is a measure of. Is it the income benefit I get from being in my house or is it what I should expect in capital appreciation? I suppose using the share analogy should I be looking at the dividend yield or the capital appreciation?

    If I apply 4.4% compound to what I paid for the house 26 years ago I come out at a capital value very close to what it is worth (ignoring the cost of the conservatory etc) at least in nominal terms (in real terms it has been a poor investment) but should I really be thinking that the house has been worth that putative yield to my income, so that if my costs have been less than that then I have made a profit or should I be looking solely at the capital value?

    Whilst the rental return gives an idea of what the asset should be worth if it is let out I am not entirely convinced that it works for owner occupation. The house may allow my children to attend a good state school, for example, making it more valuable to me when my children are young. I also think using the share analogy that anyone who bought in Hampstead 26 years ago will have massively exceeded a 4.4% return, even in capital values.
  • Options
    kle4kle4 Posts: 91,721

    SeanT said:

    Jonathan said:

    SeanT said:

    kle4 said:

    Scott_P said:
    If even united Cabinet agreement cannot stop a proposal from unravelling, then what the hell good was it?

    I guess the only question is if the rebels wait to see if the EU will reject first before they pull the trigger. If the EU does then they have 2 reasons to call a vote - that her proposal was unacceptable and it was stupid anyway - and if the EU looks receptive they can still push ahead on the basis that it is unacceptable.
    I am coming to the conclusion that we need a second vote. But it should be, again, Leave or Remain.
    If the result is remain 52:48, then what? A third vote?
    We accept whatever it says, which by definition (I think) will be a pretty hard Brexit or a pretty hard Remain.

    Right now this is like the shape of England after the Civil War being decided by a bunch of mediocre, careerist lawyers on a ketamine bender. At least in the Civil Wars they had the Putney Debates to decide what KIND of England they wanted after they killed the king.

    That's what we need. The PUTNEY DEBATES 2.0. Then another vote. And end.

    As I recall the Civil War had two phases.....
    Unfortunately, the King's son got the throne back in 1660...
    You terrible republican! Everyone knows Charles II reigned from 1649, no matter what rogues actually controlled the country for the next 11 years! A mere detail.
  • Options
    kle4 said:

    SeanT said:

    Jonathan said:

    SeanT said:

    kle4 said:

    Scott_P said:
    If even united Cabinet agreement cannot stop a proposal from unravelling, then what the hell good was it?

    I guess the only question is if the rebels wait to see if the EU will reject first before they pull the trigger. If the EU does then they have 2 reasons to call a vote - that her proposal was unacceptable and it was stupid anyway - and if the EU looks receptive they can still push ahead on the basis that it is unacceptable.
    I am coming to the conclusion that we need a second vote. But it should be, again, Leave or Remain.
    If the result is remain 52:48, then what? A third vote?
    We accept whatever it says, which by definition (I think) will be a pretty hard Brexit or a pretty hard Remain.

    Right now this is like the shape of England after the Civil War being decided by a bunch of mediocre, careerist lawyers on a ketamine bender. At least in the Civil Wars they had the Putney Debates to decide what KIND of England they wanted after they killed the king.

    That's what we need. The PUTNEY DEBATES 2.0. Then another vote. And end.

    As I recall the Civil War had two phases.....
    The Putney Debates happened before the decision to kill the king was taken (some of those arguing against being harsher with him ended up being the ones taking that decision) and they sure hadn't agreed on what kind of England they wanted after the King was killed (hence the multiple attempts at constitutions/offerings of the crown/direct military rule etc), and the Civil War had more than two phases, even if we only focus on the English parts of the whole conflict.

    Theresa May as Thomas Fairfax? Leading the armies but not politically in control, to be overtaken by more driven and passionate underlings?
    Michael Gove as John Lambert? Able and intelligent, but never able to put his ideas fully into practice, shifting allegiances and making one last play for the top job only to fail?
    Boris Johnson as George Monck? Fought on one side, then the other, then remained aloof until a final confrontation in bringing things back full circle to where it all began?


    (for any historians, these comparisons are not serious)
    So who is Cromwell?
  • Options
    Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 60,272
    Yorkcity said:

    Yorkcity said:

    When the English players talk about not even been born when England last got to a world cup semi-final makes me feel old, very very old.

    Anyone who can remember England wining in 1966, has to be about 60 or over 60.
    Well some of us are, but I think he meant 1990.
    I am 74 and will never forget it
    If England win it , will Gareth Southgate , get a knighthood like Sir Alf Ramsey ?
    Probably and maybe Harry Kane - but talking like this makes me nervous !!!!
  • Options
    FF43FF43 Posts: 15,709
    Xenon said:

    So can we sign free trade agreements with May's new deal or is it really a complete turd?

    We have to sign our trade deals when we leave the EU The question is what those deals say. Every third country arrangement will either be the same or worse than the one we had with that country as an EU member, so the least change the better. The idea of leaving the EU to sign our own trade deals is total bollocks. The setup on non EU trade is guaranteed to be worse overall after Brexit.
  • Options
    kle4kle4 Posts: 91,721

    kle4 said:

    SeanT said:

    Jonathan said:

    SeanT said:

    kle4 said:

    Scott_P said:
    If even united Cabinet agreement cannot stop a proposal from unravelling, then what the hell good was it?

    I guess the only question is if the rebels wait to see if the EU will reject first before they pull the trigger. If the EU does then they have 2 reasons to call a vote - that her proposal was unacceptable and it was stupid anyway - and if the EU looks receptive they can still push ahead on the basis that it is unacceptable.
    I am coming to the conclusion that we need a second vote. But it should be, again, Leave or Remain.
    If the result is remain 52:48, then what? A third vote?
    We accept whatever it says, which by definition (I think) will be a pretty hard Brexit or a pretty hard Remain.

    Right now this is like the shape of England after the Civil War being decided by a bunch of mediocre, careerist lawyers on a ketamine bender. At least in the Civil Wars they had the Putney Debates to decide what KIND of England they wanted after they killed the king.

    That's what we need. The PUTNEY DEBATES 2.0. Then another vote. And end.

    As I recall the Civil War had two phases.....
    The Putney De

    (for any historians, these comparisons are not serious)
    So who is Cromwell?
    Jacob Rees Mogg? Country dweller, holder of passionate but contradictory beliefs, rising late in life from obscurity to the top position.

    Not sure Old Ollie would appreciate the comparison with a papist.

    Maybe Boris will be Cromwell after all - takes over from an endlessly bickering Rump running things after it was cut down in size, temporarily crushes all before him but finds the problems besetting the country and which caused that Rump (May) difficulty remain, try out more and more ways to fix the mess, but in the end the whole edifice will fall within a few years of his passing.
  • Options
    archer101auarcher101au Posts: 1,612

    Sheer delight to watch Brexiters turn on one another and fulminate against May.

    The problem with cake-ism is that, proverbially, it describes an impossibility. The headbangers, cheered on by idiots in the press, never grasped this common sense truth.

    Isn't it funny how people with no arguments of their own deliberately and dishonestly misrepresent the views of their opponents?

    In fact, the Leavers plan of CETA does not involve any cherry picking or 'cakeism' - it is a plan that even Barnier admitted was perfectly workable and provides exactly the Brexit that the public voted for.

    Whereas the May/Remainer plan is the very definition of cherry picking and having your cake and eating it.

    It is also funny to see the Remainers once again cast themselves as the obvious majority view, as they did for 40 years until the British people pointed out that they were wrong. You forget very quickly.
  • Options
    FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 76,285
    edited July 2018
    There was a fascinating example of how NYT have lost touch with what I would call real America. They send a reporter to interview a husband and wife in Ohio who were Trump voters, are very poor and received a grant from a federal programme for home improvements, which Trump has said isn't a good use of public money.

    They obviously think they are going to get an angry reaction from the couple, hopefully with them ranting that Trump has sold them out, but the reporter is clearly shocked and confused when they say, actually if that is what is required to balance a budget / improve the state of US economy, so be it.

    Anybody who knows middle America will understand that isn't because they support Trump, it is why Trump's shtick resonates in the first place.
  • Options
    another_richardanother_richard Posts: 25,056
    FF43 said:

    Xenon said:

    So can we sign free trade agreements with May's new deal or is it really a complete turd?

    We have to sign our trade deals when we leave the EU The question is what those deals say. Every third country arrangement will either be the same or worse than the one we had with that country as an EU member, so the least change the better. The idea of leaving the EU to sign our own trade deals is total bollocks. The setup on non EU trade is guaranteed to be worse overall after Brexit.
    So you're saying that the most perfect set of trade deals that the UK could have were exactly the same as those negotiated by the EU.

    Hmmm

    Not that I'm in any rush for our gang of politicians, Sir Humphreys and 'expert' diplomats to negotiate any trade deals with that going double for Liam Fox.
  • Options
    PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 75,914
    edited July 2018
    kle4 said:



    Maybe Boris will be Cromwell after all - takes over from an endlessly bickering Rump running things after it was cut down in size, temporarily crushes all before him but finds the problems besetting the country and which caused that Rump (May) difficulty remain, try out more and more ways to fix the mess, but in the end the whole edifice will fall within a few years of his passing.

    Boris is going to be vandalising historic castles & minsters, slaughtering the Irish and banning christmas ?

    Doubtful, he can't even be bothered to resign the cabinet over Heathrow airport.
  • Options
    RobDRobD Posts: 58,961

    FF43 said:

    Xenon said:

    So can we sign free trade agreements with May's new deal or is it really a complete turd?

    We have to sign our trade deals when we leave the EU The question is what those deals say. Every third country arrangement will either be the same or worse than the one we had with that country as an EU member, so the least change the better. The idea of leaving the EU to sign our own trade deals is total bollocks. The setup on non EU trade is guaranteed to be worse overall after Brexit.
    So you're saying that the most perfect set of trade deals that the UK could have were exactly the same as those negotiated by the EU.

    Hmmm

    Not that I'm in any rush for our gang of politicians, Sir Humphreys and 'expert' diplomats to negotiate any trade deals with that going double for Liam Fox.
    Yeah, it was quite a strange suggestion. Not sure the UK is the only country they were considering when they drafted them.
  • Options
    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,983
    Alistair said:

    HYUFD said:

    Scott_P said:
    She is replacing freedom of movement with a 'mobility framework.' It is what that 'mobility framework' represents that is key
    Freedom of movement. Hope that helps.
    Technically it should provide for mobility of labour and study but not for everyone, however the devil will be in the detail
  • Options
    PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 75,914
    SeanT said:

    I just tupped my adorable 22 year old wife, twice, without taking off my Crockett and Jones.

    50 shades of @SeanT.
  • Options
    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,983
    edited July 2018

    kle4 said:

    SeanT said:

    Jonathan said:

    SeanT said:

    kle4 said:

    Scott_P said:
    If even united Cabinet agreement ptable.
    I am coming to the conclusion that we need a second vote. But it should be, again, Leave or Remain.
    If the result is remain 52:48, then what? A third vote?
    We accept whatever it says, which by definition (I think) will be a pretty hard Brexit or a pretty hard Remain.

    Right now this is like the shape of England after the Civil War being decided by a bunch of mediocre, careerist lawyers on a ketamine bender. At least in the Civil Wars they had the Putney Debates to decide what KIND of England they wanted after they killed the king.

    That's what we need. The PUTNEY DEBATES 2.0. Then another vote. And end.

    As I recall the Civil War had two phases.....
    The Putney Debates happened before the decision to kill the king was taken (some of those arguing against being haion in bringing things back full circle to where it all began?


    (for any historians, these comparisons are not serious)
    So who is Cromwell?
    Both Mogg and Corbyn could be Cromwell and are Roundheads, Farage perhaps is John Pym who as one of the 5 members the King tried to arrest played a key role in launching the revolution, May is Fairfax agreed, trying to slow the revolution with little success, Johnson could indeed be Monck who of course was crucial in ultimately returning Charles IInd to power with Gove perhaps as Ireton.

    Blair and/or Cameron are definitely Charles 1st, with Mandelson and Osborne as Strafford and Laud and perhaps Nick Clegg as Prince Rupert joining the Cavaliers. Of course Charles 1st, Strafford and Laud were all executed by the Roundheads (not that I would ever suggest a civilised nation like ours would ever contemplate such a thing again).
  • Options
    kle4kle4 Posts: 91,721
    Pulpstar said:

    kle4 said:



    Maybe Boris will be Cromwell after all - takes over from an endlessly bickering Rump running things after it was cut down in size, temporarily crushes all before him but finds the problems besetting the country and which caused that Rump (May) difficulty remain, try out more and more ways to fix the mess, but in the end the whole edifice will fall within a few years of his passing.

    Boris is going to be vandalising historic castles & minsters, slaughtering the Irish and banning christmas ?
    It is possible the comparison is not a perfect one.

    On banning Xmas if memory serves the ordnance doing so allotted a number days replacing the so called 'holy days' with days you had off for leisure, just don't say merry Xmas I guess.
  • Options
    archer101auarcher101au Posts: 1,612
    brendan16 said:

    Alistair said:

    HYUFD said:

    Scott_P said:
    She is replacing freedom of movement with a 'mobility framework.' It is what that 'mobility framework' represents that is key
    Freedom of movement. Hope that helps.
    Well sort of freedom of movement for fruit packers to come here at least - for a few weeks - based on what Gove stated this morning. But will the fruit pickers be sent home afterwards - and how will that be enforced.

    But in terms for UK retirees wanting to retire to the Costas or the south of France - presumably not unless they study or work?

    It's all a bit vague really?!! Will the mobility framework apply both ways with the other 27 members, is entitlement to welfare benefits and the NHS included or not and is it just for work (a job offer) and study or wider (retirees) and can you bring your extended family too?
    It is not vague at all. The mobility framework is FOM. Almost anyone can arrange to be offered a job (remember, the offer won't have to be real and there is no way of checking once people enter whether they are doing the job that was offered without a proper visa system).

    May will NEVER get the EU to agree with her plan without FOM. There will be a fudge on benefits, but that was not what people voted against in the referendum. The voted against large scale immigration and people undercutting them for jobs, not a small issue of benefits. May is a liar and already the people are beginning to see through her lies.

    Re fruit packers, allowing temporary labour to enter and making them leave after they are finished is not hard and every country in the World manages this type of thing - but the UK will not be able to after Brexit under May's plan because we will not be able to manage our own visa system.
  • Options
    FF43FF43 Posts: 15,709

    FF43 said:

    Xenon said:

    So can we sign free trade agreements with May's new deal or is it really a complete turd?

    We have to sign our trade deals when we leave the EU The question is what those deals say. Every third country arrangement will either be the same or worse than the one we had with that country as an EU member, so the least change the better. The idea of leaving the EU to sign our own trade deals is total bollocks. The setup on non EU trade is guaranteed to be worse overall after Brexit.
    So you're saying that the most perfect set of trade deals that the UK could have were exactly the same as those negotiated by the EU.

    Hmmm

    Not that I'm in any rush for our gang of politicians, Sir Humphreys and 'expert' diplomats to negotiate any trade deals with that going double for Liam Fox.
    No. The other party has no incentive to offer us a better deal than the one it has with the EU but has the opportunity to drive a harder bargain It's in our interest to roll over as many existing arrangements as we can. There's also a technical reason for otherwise identical FTAs being worse after leaving the EU to do with accumulation on rules of origin. Then of course the EU deals already exist while The UK only deals don't.

    The ability to negotiate our own trade deals that are worse than the ones we already have is a nonsense.
  • Options
    Tim_BTim_B Posts: 7,669

    There was a fascinating example of how NYT have lost touch with what I would call real America. They send a reporter to interview a husband and wife in Ohio who were Trump voters, are very poor and received a grant from a federal programme for home improvements, which Trump has said isn't a good use of public money.

    They obviously think they are going to get an angry reaction from the couple, hopefully with them ranting that Trump has sold them out, but the reporter is clearly shocked and confused when they say, actually if that is what is required to balance a budget / improve the state of US economy, so be it.

    Anybody who knows middle America will understand that isn't because they support Trump, it is why Trump's shtick resonates in the first place.

    Like him or loathe him, Trump is highly intelligent. He went to Wharton. But really he is a New York real estate wheeler dealer. He should be taken seriously, but not literally. He is not a politician, and is results oriented. Don't get hung up on the untruths he mouths.
  • Options
    another_richardanother_richard Posts: 25,056
    RobD said:

    FF43 said:

    Xenon said:

    So can we sign free trade agreements with May's new deal or is it really a complete turd?

    We have to sign our trade deals when we leave the EU The question is what those deals say. Every third country arrangement will either be the same or worse than the one we had with that country as an EU member, so the least change the better. The idea of leaving the EU to sign our own trade deals is total bollocks. The setup on non EU trade is guaranteed to be worse overall after Brexit.
    So you're saying that the most perfect set of trade deals that the UK could have were exactly the same as those negotiated by the EU.

    Hmmm

    Not that I'm in any rush for our gang of politicians, Sir Humphreys and 'expert' diplomats to negotiate any trade deals with that going double for Liam Fox.
    Yeah, it was quite a strange suggestion. Not sure the UK is the only country they were considering when they drafted them.
    Exactly.

    Now if the UK economy had exactly the same proportions as the EU economy as a whole it may have been right.

    But in a highly variable overall EU economy a trade deal will inevitably favour some parts over others.

    And I suspect that making sure that the UK received the best possible deal wasn't part of the overall EU strategy. The opposite would be rather more likely.
  • Options
    kle4kle4 Posts: 91,721
    Perhaps George Osborne is Charles II - the natural successor to Charles I who was dismissed with ease and fled, only he will return years down the line when the system collapses, with the help of a figure who was both an ally then an enemy of his cause.
  • Options
    another_richardanother_richard Posts: 25,056
    DavidL said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Have you all watched @rcs1000 latest video - essential.

    Yes, very good again. What I am not entirely sure I get is what the imputed rent is a measure of. Is it the income benefit I get from being in my house or is it what I should expect in capital appreciation? I suppose using the share analogy should I be looking at the dividend yield or the capital appreciation?

    If I apply 4.4% compound to what I paid for the house 26 years ago I come out at a capital value very close to what it is worth (ignoring the cost of the conservatory etc) at least in nominal terms (in real terms it has been a poor investment) but should I really be thinking that the house has been worth that putative yield to my income, so that if my costs have been less than that then I have made a profit or should I be looking solely at the capital value?

    Whilst the rental return gives an idea of what the asset should be worth if it is let out I am not entirely convinced that it works for owner occupation. The house may allow my children to attend a good state school, for example, making it more valuable to me when my children are young. I also think using the share analogy that anyone who bought in Hampstead 26 years ago will have massively exceeded a 4.4% return, even in capital values.
    It confuses the ONS as well.

    https://www.ons.gov.uk/economy/nationalaccounts/uksectoraccounts/articles/changestonationalaccounts/imputedrental
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    archer101auarcher101au Posts: 1,612
    brendan16 said:

    Xenon said:

    So can we sign free trade agreements with May's new deal or is it really a complete turd?

    Who can say - it depends on what interpretation of the deal you believe!

    Norway manages to arrange its own trade deals but they are mostly smaller nations. It for example has its own trade deal with both the Palestinian Territories and Israel - do they adhere to a common rule book?

    I think it will be possible but not for example with the US whose standards and requirements are likely to conflict with the EUs and other major players.

    The Aussies have stated we have shown interest in being potential members of the TPP - which is odd since we don't border the Pacific - and they would probably support our application. But that would require us to have an independent customs policy.

    https://www.regjeringen.no/no/tema/naringsliv/handel/nfd---innsiktsartikler/frihandelsavtaler/norways-free-trade-agreements/id457017/

    https://www.sbs.com.au/news/uk-has-real-interest-in-joining-tpp-trade-pact
    It is basically a waste of time. As JRM and the ERG pointed out, international trade deals are based on mutual acceptance of each others regulations on various items. This deal makes it impossible. We cannot agree to mutually recognise other nations regulations because only the EU will be able to make this determination. Basically, to import to the UK the USA will have to comply in full with EU regulations and the ECJ will basically decide whether this is the case.

    The EU of course can agree mutual recognition for themselves, but the UK can't. So the EU can do an FTA with the USA but the UK won't be able to do so.

    And this is the wonderful World that the enlightened Remainers want to impose on the country. Beyond belief.
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    FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 76,285
    Clearly David Davis didn't want to use Uber yesterday....
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    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,983
    kle4 said:

    Perhaps George Osborne is Charles II - the natural successor to Charles I who was dismissed with ease and fled, only he will return years down the line when the system collapses, with the help of a figure who was both an ally then an enemy of his cause.

    One problem, Charles IInd was popular and likeable.

    Chuka Umunna is probably more likely
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    fitalassfitalass Posts: 4,279
    Here we go again, going to be very interesting to see how this news is met by backbenchers at the 1922 meeting.
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    AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 29,395
    Davis has resigned.
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    FloaterFloater Posts: 14,195
    DAvis gone
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    PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 75,914
    David Davis just cost me £15 there ;p
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    AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 29,395
    edited July 2018
    Endgame for May's premiership?
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    kle4kle4 Posts: 91,721
    Ah, so he's resigning under the 'I'm an idiot' defence? In that I assume he is resigning over the proposed May deal, yet he was publicly stated to have been in favour of it 2 days ago, and apparently didn't realise what it was he had agreed to?

    The more important question is what Civil War era figure he is analgous to.

    Hmm. Blustering and ineffective figure, ostensibly leading the fight but not as talented as underlings and his heart didn't seem to be in it. Manchester? I don't recall much about him to be honest.
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    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,983
    edited July 2018
    Just breaking on Sky News now too that David Davis has resigned as Brexit Secretary. Clearly he now instantly jumps alongside Mogg as a contender from the hard Brexit wing of the party to succeed May, he has threatened to resign many times before but this looks confirmed.
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    kle4kle4 Posts: 91,721
    HYUFD said:

    kle4 said:

    Perhaps George Osborne is Charles II - the natural successor to Charles I who was dismissed with ease and fled, only he will return years down the line when the system collapses, with the help of a figure who was both an ally then an enemy of his cause.

    One problem, Charles IInd was popular and likeable.

    Chuka Umunna is probably more likely
    Who knows how popular Osborne might be to the dystopic times we may find ourselves in.
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    williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 48,052
    AndyJS said:

    Endgame for May's premiership?

    Davis could go one of two ways:

    - Fall in with the hard Brexit mob
    - Say that Brexit can't be done

    If it's the latter, then May will be the mistress of all she surveys.
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    Rexel56Rexel56 Posts: 807
    Let’s remember. David Davies had one job. He has failed.
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    DecrepitJohnLDecrepitJohnL Posts: 13,300
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    FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 76,285
    Paging brenda from bristol....you might need to do some more of that voting lark.
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    kle4kle4 Posts: 91,721
    OK May, so now it is time for a clearout. Either you win or lose, but there's no point trying to keep on board the intractable any more, you have to fight them. Better all round whether you do win or lose.
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    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,983
    BBC News 24 now also reporting that David Davis has resigned from the Cabinet so I think we can definitely say this is confirmed now
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    PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 75,914
    My Esther bet and also noone to resign from the cabinet by Sunday :p
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    AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 29,395

    Paging brenda from bristol....you might need to do some more of that voting lark.

    I think Bristol usually has a pretty good turnout, ironically.
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    kle4kle4 Posts: 91,721

    AndyJS said:

    Endgame for May's premiership?

    Davis could go one of two ways:

    - Fall in with the hard Brexit mob
    - Say that Brexit can't be done

    If it's the latter, then May will be the mistress of all she surveys.
    What possible reason would he have for saying the latter? What political benefit would there be to saying that, even if it is true?
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    fitalassfitalass Posts: 4,279
    edited July 2018
    AndyJS said:

    Endgame for May's premiership?

    Why? It did not effect Cameron when Davis resigned last time from his Shadow Cabinet Home Office brief. That time it cost the taxpayer a vanity be-election to boot. He has been utterly useless in his role as Brexit Minister, has not ever really looked like he was particularly interested or engaged in the details of putting together a workable deal. He should be embarrassed that it was May's team that took up the slack and got on with it.
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    kle4kle4 Posts: 91,721
    Pulpstar said:

    My Esther bet and also noone to resign from the cabinet by Sunday :p
    Sounds like he did it particularly to inconvenience you, considering it is too late for the next day headlines.
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    Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 49,261
    SeanT said:

    SeanT said:

    Jonathan said:

    SeanT said:

    kle4 said:

    Scott_P said:
    If even united Cabinet agreement cannot stop a proposal from unravelling, then what the hell good was it?

    I guess the only question is if the rebels wait to see if the EU will reject first before they pull the trigger. If the EU does then they have 2 reasons to call a vote - that her proposal was unacceptable and it was stupid anyway - and if the EU looks receptive they can still push ahead on the basis that it is unacceptable.
    I am coming to the conclusion that we need a second vote. But it should be, again, Leave or Remain.
    If the result is remain 52:48, then what? A third vote?
    We accept whatever it says, which by definition (I think) will be a pretty hard Brexit or a pretty hard Remain.

    Right now this is like the shape of England after the Civil War being decided by a bunch of mediocre, careerist lawyers on a ketamine bender. At least in the Civil Wars they had the Putney Debates to decide what KIND of England they wanted after they killed the king.

    That's what we need. The PUTNEY DEBATES 2.0. Then another vote. And end.

    As I recall the Civil War had two phases.....
    Unfortunately, the King's son got the throne back in 1660...
    But Divine Right was gone, forever, and England a greater nation thereby.

    That's the point. The Civil War was won for the right reasons by the right people - the Parliamentarians, the Democrats. Otherwise we'd be Spain or Portugal or ancien regime France or any other of these awful, inferior nations.

    We killed our king (correctly) but then we missed all the fun and bunting, and we said OK to the next king, but don't go thinking you run the country, mate, because you DON'T.

    This is the English genius. To combine the stability of monarchy with the equality of democracy. And this is why we voted Brexit, because the EU can and will never be that democratic (there is no demos).

    We need to be semi detached, like the Swiss or the Norwegians.
    Yes, you are quite right. Chapeau to you, sir!
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    another_richardanother_richard Posts: 25,056
    kle4 said:

    Ah, so he's resigning under the 'I'm an idiot' defence? In that I assume he is resigning over the proposed May deal, yet he was publicly stated to have been in favour of it 2 days ago, and apparently didn't realise what it was he had agreed to?

    The more important question is what Civil War era figure he is analgous to.

    Hmm. Blustering and ineffective figure, ostensibly leading the fight but not as talented as underlings and his heart didn't seem to be in it. Manchester? I don't recall much about him to be honest.
    Essex ?
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    PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 75,914
    kle4 said:

    Pulpstar said:

    My Esther bet and also noone to resign from the cabinet by Sunday :p
    Sounds like he did it particularly to inconvenience you, considering it is too late for the next day headlines.
    What a thot.
This discussion has been closed.