I do despair at the level of debate....old Fat head was banging on about chlorinated chicken as the reason why we can't Brexit / do a deal with America.
There are lots of reasons why there are lots of complications, but this nonsense on chlorinated chicken is just bollocks. When he was called on it, that we already have products that are chlorinated, but he said but the public are resistant to it....well you massive muppet, the public simply won't buy it will they.
We coat our kids in chlorine everytime they go swimming. Not sure why it's any worse for chicken?
NEWSFLASH: Man hospitalised after drinking four pints of shampoo. "I don't understand. I wash the kids with this every night."
For crying out loud. It doesn't mean we should wash chicken in it. We should be moving towards less food processing, not more. Well reared free-range chicken doesn't need chlorine on it. The reason they chlorinate chicken is because it is utter shite.
Not so much husbandry as slaughterhouse practice. There is a lot of faecal contamination because of the rate of slaughter lines in the USA. Coordination is to kill off surface contamination, so that microbiological tests are passed. It does not deal with deeper contamination.
One of the good things about May's proposal is that the EU will continue to regulate our food standards.
Although (as Nick I am sure will confirm) British animal welfare standards are higher than in the EU
No problem with UK ones being higher, the objection is allowing in lower standards US chicken.
we allow lower standards in from Poland, Italy the Netherlandswhy arbitrarily pick on the yanks
Because theirs are lower still.
based on what evidence ?
you don't have millions of yanks dying from food poisoning any more than you do millions of Europeans . When you go to the states are you saying you don't eat ?
or should we stop eating UK food if Sweden proves to have higher standards ?
Tragic to see how the UK is lost in the post-referendum chaos. This used to be a nation providing leadership to the world. Now it can’t even provide leadership to itself."
But David Cameron said that Ed Miliband would bring a ‘coalition of chaos’ and only he offered competence....
Just drop out of the EU without a deal other than WTO terms.
'A deal other than WTO terms' doesn't exist. This is the point I keep repeating. There's a massive confusion between leaving with literally no deal - which is unthinkable, since the economy and much else besides would just stop - and agreeing a deal whereby we have an orderly transition to WTO terms. But the latter still requires a deal with the EU.
£40 billion - or a discount thereto - should still get that.
I think Fox will leap ship next. Much as he's disliked by many here that is probably fatal for May.
The one resignation that would kill off May now would be Javid.....
Yes, one question that would kill her off is asking her to confirm whether or not EU citizens will get special treatment wrt to immigration. If she gives out a non-answer or confirms that they will I think Javid walks and brings the shitshow down with him.
I thought Javid has already said EU citizens will get special treatment if not automatic entry with a job.
No, he wants them to have the same terms as everyone else, the PM supposedly gave her word on Friday, but that has been rowed back since. I expect that is why he is keeping very quiet at the moment.
I hope whichever leaver becomes PM (and I reckon it will be a leaver) gets the same shitty 'loyalty' they've shown May. It's all they deserve; some of them have helped bring down three Conservative PMs over Europe.
The disloyal cannot expect loyalty.
And where does this all end up? A Corbyn government ...
Disloyalty?
Theresa May was threatening her Cabinet with humiliation in order to force them to agree to her deal on Friday...
I said it wouldn't end well for her.
As I said in the last reply, that was hardly the start of it, was it? Though it may be the end.
A leaver PM is going to have awful troubles within the party - and they'll deserve it, too. I'm quite looking forward to it. Major, Cameron and May all damaged or brought down by the same group of people within the party.
And probably will not be able to rely on votes from across the floor as May has.
Precisely. As our great and much-lamented former Chancellor wisely said, the golden rule of politics is that you have to be able to count. Where on earth are the ultras going to find 320+ votes in the Commons for a Brexit harder than that Theressa May is aiming for?
The Ultras don't need a H of C vote.
Just drop out of the EU without a deal other than WTO terms.
Then they'll be swinging from the lampposts within three days of the supermarkets running out of food.
Just drop out of the EU without a deal other than WTO terms.
'A deal other than WTO terms' doesn't exist. This is the point I keep repeating. There's a massive confusion between leaving with literally no deal - which is unthinkable, since the economy and much else besides would just stop - and agreeing a deal whereby we have an orderly transition to WTO terms. But the latter still requires a deal with the EU.
£40 billion - or a discount thereto - should still get that.
I think Fox will leap ship next. Much as he's disliked by many here that is probably fatal for May.
The one resignation that would kill off May now would be Javid.....
Agree. From watching the exchanges - and tenor - from the Conservative side, I now believe May will win the no confidence vote with a sufficient majority to continue. But Javid quitting would be the end.
He's also been suspiciously quiet other than to voice his support of Davis and Boris. I think he knows he's about to get stitched up on EU citizen rights because May can't be trusted to keep her word. If Gove were smart he'd be talking to Javid right now about bringing May down with a double resignation just before the first editions. They both broadly favour the deal and could retain almost all of it as a ticket with a remainer/leaver in 10/11.
It's what I would be thinking in Gove's place anyway, it gets him into a key role in the government, he backs the winner and he gets to shape Brexit as he wants it.
I do despair at the level of debate....old Fat head was banging on about chlorinated chicken as the reason why we can't Brexit / do a deal with America.
There are lots of reasons why there are lots of complications, but this nonsense on chlorinated chicken is just bollocks. When he was called on it, that we already have products that are chlorinated, but he said but the public are resistant to it....well you massive muppet, the public simply won't buy it will they.
We coat our kids in chlorine everytime they go swimming. Not sure why it's any worse for chicken?
NEWSFLASH: Man hospitalised after drinking four pints of shampoo. "I don't understand. I wash the kids with this every night."
For crying out loud. It doesn't mean we should wash chicken in it. We should be moving towards less food processing, not more. Well reared free-range chicken doesn't need chlorine on it. The reason they chlorinate chicken is because it is utter shite.
Not so much husbandry as slaughterhouse practice. There is a lot of faecal contamination because of the rate of slaughter lines in the USA. Coordination is to kill off surface contamination, so that microbiological tests are passed. It does not deal with deeper contamination.
One of the good things about May's proposal is that the EU will continue to regulate our food standards.
Although (as Nick I am sure will confirm) British animal welfare standards are higher than in the EU
No problem with UK ones being higher, the objection is allowing in lower standards US chicken.
we allow lower standards in from Poland, Italy the Netherlandswhy arbitrarily pick on the yanks
Because theirs are lower still.
based on what evidence ?
you don't have millions of yanks dying from food poisoning any more than you do millions of Europeans . When you go to the states are you saying you don't eat ?
or should we stop eating UK food if Sweden proves to have higher standards ?
Obesity?
Everything always bigger in the USA.
I thought us and the paddies have now supersized to US standards with much of Europe waddling fast to overtake us.
Did anyone get on that 10/1 on Boris resigning today? Great money for anyone brave enough. Surely TM needs a confidence vote now, or her authority is shot beyond belief?
I think Fox will leap ship next. Much as he's disliked by many here that is probably fatal for May.
The one resignation that would kill off May now would be Javid.....
Yes, one question that would kill her off is asking her to confirm whether or not EU citizens will get special treatment wrt to immigration. If she gives out a non-answer or confirms that they will I think Javid walks and brings the shitshow down with him.
I thought Javid has already said EU citizens will get special treatment if not automatic entry with a job.
No, he wants them to have the same terms as everyone else, the PM supposedly gave her word on Friday, but that has been rowed back since. I expect that is why he is keeping very quiet at the moment.
Don't put your hopes on Javid, he showed his principles were for sale when the referendum came
Did anyone get on that 10/1 on Boris resigning today? Great money for anyone brave enough. Surely TM needs a confidence vote now, or her authority is shot beyond belief?
I got 7/1 (on anyone going), which was good news for me. The bad news was the Paddy limited me to half a Pret sandwich.
Did anyone get on that 10/1 on Boris resigning today? Great money for anyone brave enough. Surely TM needs a confidence vote now, or her authority is shot beyond belief?
Paddy allowed me £1.25 on #someone else' going at 7s.
Just drop out of the EU without a deal other than WTO terms.
'A deal other than WTO terms' doesn't exist. This is the point I keep repeating. There's a massive confusion between leaving with literally no deal - which is unthinkable, since the economy and much else besides would just stop - and agreeing a deal whereby we have an orderly transition to WTO terms. But the latter still requires a deal with the EU.
£40 billion - or a discount thereto - should still get that.
.. which the HoC has to approve.
Do keep up!
Food stops, lack of medicine stops the NHS, foreign holidays stop. Name me an MP that would want to be attached to that?
Just drop out of the EU without a deal other than WTO terms.
'A deal other than WTO terms' doesn't exist. This is the point I keep repeating. There's a massive confusion between leaving with literally no deal - which is unthinkable, since the economy and much else besides would just stop - and agreeing a deal whereby we have an orderly transition to WTO terms. But the latter still requires a deal with the EU.
£40 billion - or a discount thereto - should still get that.
.. which the HoC has to approve.
Do keep up!
Food stops, lack of medicine stops the NHS, foreign holidays stop. Name me an MP that would want to be attached to that?
If May wins a leadership challenge, then she gets year. If she loses, does the new leader also get a year, or are they in peril from day one?
If she loses we have a full campaign for a new leader with two candidates eventually being put to the membership. This could take all summer
Why? Given the urgency, why can't they say that it's a week to whittle down candidates to 2 via a series of MP votes, then a 2 week window for postal member ballots to be returned. All done in 3 weeks and hardly abuse of process. If you're away for the full 2 weeks, nominate a proxy adddress while the MPs are voting, job done. No time for hustings & campaigns, but surely enough to get a fair vote done.
P.S. Can I say how much I've appreciated and respected your posts over recent weeks - a very insightful picture of a journey I think many people have been on.
Just drop out of the EU without a deal other than WTO terms.
'A deal other than WTO terms' doesn't exist. This is the point I keep repeating. There's a massive confusion between leaving with literally no deal - which is unthinkable, since the economy and much else besides would just stop - and agreeing a deal whereby we have an orderly transition to WTO terms. But the latter still requires a deal with the EU.
£40 billion - or a discount thereto - should still get that.
.. which the HoC has to approve.
Do keep up!
Food stops, lack of medicine stops the NHS, foreign holidays stop. Name me an MP that would want to be attached to that?
Confident May will win, the resignations no real impact. Boris has been exposed for what he is since Gove knifed him and his stock has fallen even lower. DD's card was marked after he called that by-election back in 2008.
Would take further resignations by people whose stocks are rising for someone to take May to one side and say it's over, you're done.
Just drop out of the EU without a deal other than WTO terms.
'A deal other than WTO terms' doesn't exist. This is the point I keep repeating. There's a massive confusion between leaving with literally no deal - which is unthinkable, since the economy and much else besides would just stop - and agreeing a deal whereby we have an orderly transition to WTO terms. But the latter still requires a deal with the EU.
£40 billion - or a discount thereto - should still get that.
.. which the HoC has to approve.
Do keep up!
Food stops, lack of medicine stops the NHS, foreign holidays stop. Name me an MP that would want to be attached to that?
That's precisely my point. Even if the ultras manage to find someone sufficiently out with the fairies to contemplate No Deal, and manage to persuade Tory MPs into putting this candidate in the running, and manage to persuade the party as a whole to commit suicide by voting for him or her, that still doesn't alter the fact that there will have to be a deal with the EU, that parliament will have to approve it, and that the numbers don't add up for the ultras.
Just drop out of the EU without a deal other than WTO terms.
'A deal other than WTO terms' doesn't exist. This is the point I keep repeating. There's a massive confusion between leaving with literally no deal - which is unthinkable, since the economy and much else besides would just stop - and agreeing a deal whereby we have an orderly transition to WTO terms. But the latter still requires a deal with the EU.
£40 billion - or a discount thereto - should still get that.
.. which the HoC has to approve.
Do keep up!
Food stops, lack of medicine stops the NHS, foreign holidays stop. Name me an MP that would want to be attached to that?
I hope whichever leaver becomes PM (and I reckon it will be a leaver) gets the same shitty 'loyalty' they've shown May. It's all they deserve; some of them have helped bring down three Conservative PMs over Europe.
The disloyal cannot expect loyalty.
And where does this all end up? A Corbyn government ...
Disloyalty?
Theresa May was threatening her Cabinet with humiliation in order to force them to agree to her deal on Friday...
I said it wouldn't end well for her.
As I said in the last reply, that was hardly the start of it, was it? Though it may be the end.
A leaver PM is going to have awful troubles within the party - and they'll deserve it, too. I'm quite looking forward to it. Major, Cameron and May all damaged or brought down by the same group of people within the party.
And probably will not be able to rely on votes from across the floor as May has.
Precisely. As our great and much-lamented former Chancellor wisely said, the golden rule of politics is that you have to be able to count. Where on earth are the ultras going to find 320+ votes in the Commons for a Brexit harder than that Theressa May is aiming for?
The Ultras don't need a H of C vote.
Just drop out of the EU without a deal other than WTO terms.
Then they'll be swinging from the lampposts within three days of the supermarkets running out of food.
This I simply don't understand. Why would the supermarkets run out of food? Would the EU farmers be any less keen to sell to us? If not, then the only impediment to food reaching our supermarkets would be impediments the British government, not the EU, puts in the way. I.e. it would be in the power of HMG to prevent your scenario.
I think Fox will leap ship next. Much as he's disliked by many here that is probably fatal for May.
The one resignation that would kill off May now would be Javid.....
Yes, one question that would kill her off is asking her to confirm whether or not EU citizens will get special treatment wrt to immigration. If she gives out a non-answer or confirms that they will I think Javid walks and brings the shitshow down with him.
I thought Javid has already said EU citizens will get special treatment if not automatic entry with a job.
No, he wants them to have the same terms as everyone else, the PM supposedly gave her word on Friday, but that has been rowed back since. I expect that is why he is keeping very quiet at the moment.
Don't put your hopes on Javid, he showed his principles were for sale when the referendum came
Depends if he believes the hype that he is on pole to replace May.....
Most of LK's tweets are just her making stuff up. Anything that begins with the words Whispers, Hearing, Understand or Told are just her imagining stuff.
If May wins a leadership challenge, then she gets year. If she loses, does the new leader also get a year, or are they in peril from day one?
If she loses we have a full campaign for a new leader with two candidates eventually being put to the membership. This could take all summer
Why? Given the urgency, why can't they say that it's a week to whittle down candidates to 2 via a series of MP votes, then a 2 week window for postal member ballots to be returned. All done in 3 weeks and hardly abuse of process. If you're away for the full 2 weeks, nominate a proxy adddress while the MPs are voting, job done. No time for hustings & campaigns, but surely enough to get a fair vote done.
P.S. Can I say how much I've appreciated and respected your posts over recent weeks - a very insightful picture of a journey I think many people have been on.
Thank you for your kind words. I am very annoyed with the Brexiteers and especially Boris with his FO to Airbus and that tipped me over and to back a soft Brexit .
As far as a leadership contest is concerned I would expect televised hustings before the submission to the members but maybe it could be condensed
If May wins a leadership challenge, then she gets year. If she loses, does the new leader also get a year, or are they in peril from day one?
No, if she wins she will dig in until 2022. I don't see how she can be unseated before then if she gets party backing.
Possibly, but if opinion polls and election results show the Tories holding firm as the 2022 becomes closer, why shouldn’t she?
If the party supports slump, she’ll go or be ousted. But now is not the time.
Just like the polls held up before 2017. She's a complete loser of a campaigner. Worse than Brown. I think the plotters will make it very clear that this will be the one and only chance to dump her before 2022. We all know that she will cling to power at whatever the cost of she wins this time.
I hope whichever leaver becomes PM (and I reckon it will be a leaver) gets the same shitty 'loyalty' they've shown May. It's all they deserve; some of them have helped bring down three Conservative PMs over Europe.
The disloyal cannot expect loyalty.
And where does this all end up? A Corbyn government ...
Disloyalty?
Theresa May was threatening her Cabinet with humiliation in order to force them to agree to her deal on Friday...
I said it wouldn't end well for her.
Much as I know you're a hardcore leaver and so would wish it to be so, I think you're right.
Actually I could probably live with Theresa's deal if that was the end point - But her starting position is basically at the point where I'd say no more.
I know she'll give even more to the EU from here.
May - It's in the national interest, it's in the national interest, it's in the national interest, ..........
Question - with Her Majesty's Government tearing itself apart and potentially removing the PM in the next day or two, what advise do you give the President if you are a senior White House staffer about whether to come on Thursday?
The price for a UK-US FTA is unfettered access to the UK for US agricultural products. Because UK meat requires significantly higher levels of animal welfare than the US, its cost of production is much, much higher. British farmers cannot both produce under current standards, and compete with US produce.
We can lower animal welfare standards to allow UK farmers to compete, or we can choose not to have an FTA with the US. What we cannot do is have a situation where we hobble our farmers and drive them out of business.
Is there not any way around this at all? Wouldn't the benefit of trading with the US outweigh fixing this problem?
I hope whichever leaver becomes PM (and I reckon it will be a leaver) gets the same shitty 'loyalty' they've shown May. It's all they deserve; some of them have helped bring down three Conservative PMs over Europe.
The disloyal cannot expect loyalty.
And where does this all end up? A Corbyn government ...
Disloyalty?
Theresa May was threatening her Cabinet with humiliation in order to force them to agree to her deal on Friday...
I said it wouldn't end well for her.
As I said in the last reply, that was hardly the start of it, was it? Though it may be the end.
A leaver PM is going to have awful troubles within the party - and they'll deserve it, too. I'm quite looking forward to it. Major, Cameron and May all damaged or brought down by the same group of people within the party.
And probably will not be able to rely on votes from across the floor as May has.
Precisely. As our great and much-lamented former Chancellor wisely said, the golden rule of politics is that you have to be able to count. Where on earth are the ultras going to find 320+ votes in the Commons for a Brexit harder than that Theressa May is aiming for?
The Ultras don't need a H of C vote.
Just drop out of the EU without a deal other than WTO terms.
Then they'll be swinging from the lampposts within three days of the supermarkets running out of food.
This I simply don't understand. Why would the supermarkets run out of food? Would the EU farmers be any less keen to sell to us? If not, then the only impediment to food reaching our supermarkets would be impediments the British government, not the EU, puts in the way. I.e. it would be in the power of HMG to prevent your scenario.
Or am I missing something? Please explain.
Traffic jams at Dover and Calais as customs struggle to deal with the admin.
I hope whichever leaver becomes PM (and I reckon it will be a leaver) gets the same shitty 'loyalty' they've shown May. It's all they deserve; some of them have helped bring down three Conservative PMs over Europe.
The disloyal cannot expect loyalty.
And where does this all end up? A Corbyn government ...
Disloyalty?
Theresa May was threatening her Cabinet with humiliation in order to force them to agree to her deal on Friday...
I said it wouldn't end well for her.
As I said in the last reply, that was hardly the start of it, was it? Though it may be the end.
A leaver PM is going to have awful troubles within the party - and they'll deserve it, too. I'm quite looking forward to it. Major, Cameron and May all damaged or brought down by the same group of people within the party.
And probably will not be able to rely on votes from across the floor as May has.
Precisely. As our great and much-lamented former Chancellor wisely said, the golden rule of politics is that you have to be able to count. Where on earth are the ultras going to find 320+ votes in the Commons for a Brexit harder than that Theressa May is aiming for?
The Ultras don't need a H of C vote.
Just drop out of the EU without a deal other than WTO terms.
Then they'll be swinging from the lampposts within three days of the supermarkets running out of food.
This I simply don't understand. Why would the supermarkets run out of food? Would the EU farmers be any less keen to sell to us? If not, then the only impediment to food reaching our supermarkets would be impediments the British government, not the EU, puts in the way. I.e. it would be in the power of HMG to prevent your scenario.
If May wins a leadership challenge, then she gets year. If she loses, does the new leader also get a year, or are they in peril from day one?
If she loses we have a full campaign for a new leader with two candidates eventually being put to the membership. This could take all summer
And what of the country as the Conservatives navel-gaze for months on end ?!?
Jack a man of your experience and sagacity should know by now that the country is not the Tories' priority. What they are really interested in is their own internal psychodrama and the country is just collateral damage. As the former foreign secretary didn't say, their attitude over the past few years has been "f*ck the country." And they are continuing in that vein.
If May wins a leadership challenge, then she gets year. If she loses, does the new leader also get a year, or are they in peril from day one?
No, if she wins she will dig in until 2022. I don't see how she can be unseated before then if she gets party backing.
Possibly, but if opinion polls and election results show the Tories holding firm as the 2022 becomes closer, why shouldn’t she?
If the party supports slump, she’ll go or be ousted. But now is not the time.
Just like the polls held up before 2017. She's a complete loser of a campaigner. Worse than Brown. I think the plotters will make it very clear that this will be the one and only chance to dump her before 2022. We all know that she will cling to power at whatever the cost of she wins this time.
This basically sums up Theresa May in election mode
I hope whichever leaver becomes PM (and I reckon it will be a leaver) gets the same shitty 'loyalty' they've shown May. It's all they deserve; some of them have helped bring down three Conservative PMs over Europe.
The disloyal cannot expect loyalty.
And where does this all end up? A Corbyn government ...
Disloyalty?
Theresa May was threatening her Cabinet with humiliation in order to force them to agree to her deal on Friday...
I said it wouldn't end well for her.
As I said in the last reply, that was hardly the start of it, was it? Though it may be the end.
A leaver PM is going to have awful troubles within the party - and they'll deserve it, too. I'm quite looking forward to it. Major, Cameron and May all damaged or brought down by the same group of people within the party.
And probably will not be able to rely on votes from across the floor as May has.
Precisely. As our great and much-lamented former Chancellor wisely said, the golden rule of politics is that you have to be able to count. Where on earth are the ultras going to find 320+ votes in the Commons for a Brexit harder than that Theressa May is aiming for?
The Ultras don't need a H of C vote.
Just drop out of the EU without a deal other than WTO terms.
Then they'll be swinging from the lampposts within three days of the supermarkets running out of food.
This I simply don't understand. Why would the supermarkets run out of food? Would the EU farmers be any less keen to sell to us? If not, then the only impediment to food reaching our supermarkets would be impediments the British government, not the EU, puts in the way. I.e. it would be in the power of HMG to prevent your scenario.
Question - with Her Majesty's Government tearing itself apart and potentially removing the PM in the next day or two, what advise do you give the President if you are a senior White House staffer about whether to come on Thursday?
Go to Scotland. Play golf. Go home.
No. Go to Scotland. Play Golf. Go to NATO meeting.
I hope whichever leaver becomes PM (and I reckon it will be a leaver) gets the same shitty 'loyalty' they've shown May. It's all they deserve; some of them have helped bring down three Conservative PMs over Europe.
The disloyal cannot expect loyalty.
And where does this all end up? A Corbyn government ...
Disloyalty?
Theresa May was threatening her Cabinet with humiliation in order to force them to agree to her deal on Friday...
I said it wouldn't end well for her.
As I said in the last reply, that was hardly the start of it, was it? Though it may be the end.
A leaver PM is going to have awful troubles within the party - and they'll deserve it, too. I'm quite looking forward to it. Major, Cameron and May all damaged or brought down by the same group of people within the party.
And probably will not be able to rely on votes from across the floor as May has.
Precisely. As our great and much-lamented former Chancellor wisely said, the golden rule of politics is that you have to be able to count. Where on earth are the ultras going to find 320+ votes in the Commons for a Brexit harder than that Theressa May is aiming for?
The Ultras don't need a H of C vote.
Just drop out of the EU without a deal other than WTO terms.
Then they'll be swinging from the lampposts within three days of the supermarkets running out of food.
This I simply don't understand. Why would the supermarkets run out of food? Would the EU farmers be any less keen to sell to us? If not, then the only impediment to food reaching our supermarkets would be impediments the British government, not the EU, puts in the way. I.e. it would be in the power of HMG to prevent your scenario.
Or am I missing something? Please explain.
The EU U-boats...
(for the avoidance of doubt, this is a joke)
I don't think the German navy can leave port these days, can it? It's broken.
The price for a UK-US FTA is unfettered access to the UK for US agricultural products. Because UK meat requires significantly higher levels of animal welfare than the US, its cost of production is much, much higher. British farmers cannot both produce under current standards, and compete with US produce.
We can lower animal welfare standards to allow UK farmers to compete, or we can choose not to have an FTA with the US. What we cannot do is have a situation where we hobble our farmers and drive them out of business.
Is there not any way around this at all? Wouldn't the benefit of trading with the US outweigh fixing this problem?
Well, it would alienate two groups of Conservative voters: rural voters who are dependent on agriculture, and those in places like Richmond-upon-Thames who care deeply about animal welfare. The biggest winners would be the urban poor, who probably wouldn't vote Conservative in thanks.
"The first big psychological study of Brexit voters has found that people who voted Leave in the 2016 UK referendum share many personality traits with Trump supporters in the US, and supporters of far-right political parties in Europe. In particular, they were far more likely to have an “authoritarian” personality.
Around a third of people in western societies have authoritarian personalities. This personality type is partly determined by genes, and features a strong desire for order, obedience, conformity, and cohesion within the “in-group” with which the person identifies. Authoritarian personality was the best predictor of support for Donald Trump in the 2016 US election." https://www.newscientist.com/article/2173681-how-your-personality-predicts-your-attitudes-towards-brexit/?utm_campaign=RSS|NSNS&utm_source=NSNS&utm_medium=RSS&utm_content=news&campaign_id=RSS|NSNS-news
"The first big psychological study of Brexit voters has found that people who voted Leave in the 2016 UK referendum share many personality traits with Trump supporters in the US, and supporters of far-right political parties in Europe. In particular, they were far more likely to have an “authoritarian” personality.
Around a third of people in western societies have authoritarian personalities. This personality type is partly determined by genes, and features a strong desire for order, obedience, conformity, and cohesion within the “in-group” with which the person identifies. Authoritarian personality was the best predictor of support for Donald Trump in the 2016 US election." https://www.newscientist.com/article/2173681-how-your-personality-predicts-your-attitudes-towards-brexit/?utm_campaign=RSS|NSNS&utm_source=NSNS&utm_medium=RSS&utm_content=news&campaign_id=RSS|NSNS-news
My dad voted Brexit, his personality is exactly like that (although even he doesn’t like Trump, mind).
If May wins a leadership challenge, then she gets year. If she loses, does the new leader also get a year, or are they in peril from day one?
If she loses we have a full campaign for a new leader with two candidates eventually being put to the membership. This could take all summer
And what of the country as the Conservatives navel-gaze for months on end ?!?
Jack a man of your experience and sagacity should know by now that the country is not the Tories' priority. What they are really interested in is their own internal psychodrama and the country is just collateral damage. As the former foreign secretary didn't say, their attitude over the past few years has been "f*ck the country." And they are continuing in that vein.
I always start from the position of wishing a new administration well and initially allowing them the benefit of the doubt as they wrestle with the complex nature of governing a modern liberal democracy.
We are well past allowing this shower a fair wind. The government is a mess and the Prime Minister has failed the nation. That said we are also treated to a Labour party completely unfit for office "led" by a man who would be out of his depth as Chairman of a small parish council.
The situation is dire and so are the political leaders.
What has May got to offer her party now? She has called an election, fucked up the Manifesto, fucked up the majority, thereby fucking up her authority to deliver Brexit, given the negotiating centre ground to the EU, undermined those she has tasked with delivering Brexit....and if she isn't prised out, will try to stay on and lead the Party into an election that could be much sooner than anyone expects?
Why, if you are a Tory MP, would it not be worth taking the risk of putting someone new at the helm?
OMG. Just heard Boris has gone. It's all out war now!
The government is collapsing.
No it is not
You must admit it is giving a reasonable impression of so doing.
A cull of the Brexiteers is needed
The Brexiteers are representing 17.4m people who WON the referendum.
No they are not. Few voted to lose their jobs. You are getting carried away. Hard Brexit is over
Wrong, we valued our sovereignty and independence and freedom, and we were prepared to accept the short to medium term hit on our economy , for the long term gains brexit would eventually bring once we have managed to unshackle ourselves from the EU prison and make ourselves competitive in the world again
Wrong. We were promised “exactly the same benefits”, remember?
"The first big psychological study of Brexit voters has found that people who voted Leave in the 2016 UK referendum share many personality traits with Trump supporters in the US, and supporters of far-right political parties in Europe. In particular, they were far more likely to have an “authoritarian” personality.
Around a third of people in western societies have authoritarian personalities. This personality type is partly determined by genes, and features a strong desire for order, obedience, conformity, and cohesion within the “in-group” with which the person identifies. Authoritarian personality was the best predictor of support for Donald Trump in the 2016 US election." https://www.newscientist.com/article/2173681-how-your-personality-predicts-your-attitudes-towards-brexit/?utm_campaign=RSS|NSNS&utm_source=NSNS&utm_medium=RSS&utm_content=news&campaign_id=RSS|NSNS-news
My dad voted Brexit, his personality is exactly like that (although even he doesn’t like Trump, mind).
The article is behind a paywall. Whose research is cited? Is it Kahan, or someone else?
What has May got to offer her party now? She has called an election, fucked up the Manifesto, fucked up the majority, thereby fucking up her authority to deliver Brexit, given the negotiating centre ground to the EU, undermined those she has tasked with delivering Brexit....and if she isn't prised out, will try to stay on and lead the Party into an election that could be much sooner than anyone expects?
Why, if you are a Tory MP, would it not be worth taking the risk of putting someone new at the helm?
She offers them an insatiable thirst to drink from the poisoned chalice. No-one else has the grim determination to take the blows and still deliver performances like she did today in parliament.
So, Johnson has quit as expected then. Good. The only hope for the Tories is they don't pussyfoot around anymore and actually have the knock down internal fight they so sorely need. If there is an election this year they are screwed, but at least if they have a fight and see if one side can win without the other side flouncing off then they may have a few years to try to recover from the rank incompetence of the past year.
I hope whichever leaver becomes PM (and I reckon it will be a leaver) gets the same shitty 'loyalty' they've shown May. It's all they deserve; some of them have helped bring down three Conservative PMs over Europe.
The disloyal cannot expect loyalty.
And where does this all end up? A Corbyn government ...
Disloyalty?
Theresa May was threatening her Cabinet with humiliation in order to force them to agree to her deal on Friday...
I said it wouldn't end well for her.
As I said in the last reply, that was hardly the start of it, was it? Though it may be the end.
A leaver PM is going to have awful troubles within the party - and they'll deserve it, too. I'm quite looking forward to it. Major, Cameron and May all damaged or brought down by the same group of people within the party.
And probably will not be able to rely on votes from across the floor as May has.
Precisely. As our great and much-lamented former Chancellor wisely said, the golden rule of politics is that you have to be able to count. Where on earth are the ultras going to find 320+ votes in the Commons for a Brexit harder than that Theressa May is aiming for?
The Ultras don't need a H of C vote.
Just drop out of the EU without a deal other than WTO terms.
Then they'll be swinging from the lampposts within three days of the supermarkets running out of food.
This I simply don't understand. Why would the supermarkets run out of food? Would the EU farmers be any less keen to sell to us? If not, then the only impediment to food reaching our supermarkets would be impediments the British government, not the EU, puts in the way. I.e. it would be in the power of HMG to prevent your scenario.
Or am I missing something? Please explain.
I'm not sure but I can think of three factors that might hold up incoming goods:
1. Goods leaving the EU have to go through export clearance, so the hold up might be at Calais.
2. The same lorries take the imports as the exports so any hold ups on goods entering the EU will knock on to imports to the UK.
3. The UK is obliged under WTO most favoured nation rules to apply the same import controls as on imports from.any country it isn't in a customs union with.
Tragic to see how the UK is lost in the post-referendum chaos. This used to be a nation providing leadership to the world. Now it can’t even provide leadership to itself."
But David Cameron said that Ed Miliband would bring a ‘coalition of chaos’ and only he offered competence....
Had he won the referendum it was a fair assumption
Comments
Everything always bigger in the USA.
Do keep up!
So it must be true.
P.S. Can I say how much I've appreciated and respected your posts over recent weeks - a very insightful picture of a journey I think many people have been on.
Would take further resignations by people whose stocks are rising for someone to take May to one side and say it's over, you're done.
https://twitter.com/carlbildt/status/1016270527378452482
https://twitter.com/Max_Fisher/status/1016324334493880320
https://twitter.com/GovHowardDean/status/1016339769905897472
i think we can see a theme developing: that the rest of the world is no longer taking the UK seriously as a leading nation.
If the party supports slump, she’ll go or be ousted. But now is not the time.
If she wins big she's there to the next election... And surely even Big G wouldn't trust Theresa May with another general election campaign?
https://twitter.com/davieclegg/status/1016310302881796097
A trio of tweets does not prove much.
Not to mention, the current situation is very much in flux. Assessing it now would be like trying to write a race review halfway in.
I guess that's what being in the EU too long does to you.
Or am I missing something? Please explain.
As far as a leadership contest is concerned I would expect televised hustings before the submission to the members but maybe it could be condensed
then when they needed people to pay bills and troops to fight suddenly it all changed
little englander
(for the avoidance of doubt, this is a joke)
Stay until next election:
Con: 56
Lab: 20
LibD: 30
Resign immediately:
Con: 9
Lab: 39
LibD: 15
http://survation.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/07/MoS-final-tables.pdf
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CDMSJig_SHs
Will it swing to Remain or Leave?
This poll is saying that Boris is seen as more unsuited to be PM than Corbyn....
Around a third of people in western societies have authoritarian personalities. This personality type is partly determined by genes, and features a strong desire for order, obedience, conformity, and cohesion within the “in-group” with which the person identifies. Authoritarian personality was the best predictor of support for Donald Trump in the 2016 US election."
https://www.newscientist.com/article/2173681-how-your-personality-predicts-your-attitudes-towards-brexit/?utm_campaign=RSS|NSNS&utm_source=NSNS&utm_medium=RSS&utm_content=news&campaign_id=RSS|NSNS-news
And this is fairly apt:
"If this were played upon a stage now, I could condemn it as an improbable fiction...."
We are well past allowing this shower a fair wind. The government is a mess and the Prime Minister has failed the nation. That said we are also treated to a Labour party completely unfit for office "led" by a man who would be out of his depth as Chairman of a small parish council.
The situation is dire and so are the political leaders.
Why, if you are a Tory MP, would it not be worth taking the risk of putting someone new at the helm?
NEW THREAD
He's not a 'has been'. He's a 'never been'.
1. Goods leaving the EU have to go through export clearance, so the hold up might be at Calais.
2. The same lorries take the imports as the exports so any hold ups on goods entering the EU will knock on to imports to the UK.
3. The UK is obliged under WTO most favoured nation rules to apply the same import controls as on imports from.any country it isn't in a customs union with.