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  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 66,768

    Is there some remote one we can send him to?
    Boris is a fan of history, perhaps he would appreciate exlie on St Helena or Corsica?
    Do you mean Elba, rather than Corsica?

    TBF, May should have given him the Elba a long time ago.
  • old_labourold_labour Posts: 3,238
    edited July 2018
    Strange how remainers seem to be lining up in favour of Theresa May.

    The former deputy prime minister, Michael Heseltine, tells BBC News he believes Theresa May would win a Tory leadership contest if she invited one now because there is no one suitable to replace her.

    There is no point in changing the singer unless you change the song.


    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/live/2018/jul/09/david-davis-resigns-as-brexit-secretary-live-updates?page=with:block-5b43a125e4b04dbcfcbddb13#block-5b43a125e4b04dbcfcbddb13
  • SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 38,879
    He also addresses her as Theresa rather than as PM. Is that normal in such resignations?

  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 66,768

    Strange how remainers seem to be lining up in favour of Theresa May.

    The former deputy prime minister, Michael Heseltine, tells BBC News he believes Theresa May would win a Tory leadership contest if she invited one now because there is no one suitable to replace her.

    There is no point in changing the singer unless you change the song.

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/live/2018/jul/09/david-davis-resigns-as-brexit-secretary-live-updates?page=with:block-5b43a125e4b04dbcfcbddb13#block-5b43a125e4b04dbcfcbddb13

    British politics looks more like a cracked record at present. Same old tunes in quavery voices that have no link to the modern world.

    And the Tories are almost as bad as Labour.
  • Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    OK, alternative plan.

    Public enquiry. (Judge led)

    Forensic examination of everyone who stood on a public platform and how accurate their statements were.

    Then another vote.
  • old_labourold_labour Posts: 3,238
    Telegraph.

    Theresa May tells MPs: 'I am going on a walking holiday this summer'

    Backbench MPs cried "No, no, no!" as the Prime Minister said she plans to take a walking holiday this summer. it was on a walking holiday in Wales that Mrs May decided to call a snap election last year.

    Theresa May told her MPs at the 1922 meeting just now: "I am thinking of going walking this sunmer."
    Tory MPs reply: "No! No! No!" #GeneralElection2018
    — Christopher Hope (@christopherhope) July 9, 2018
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 76,274
    Scott_P said:

    OK, alternative plan.

    Public enquiry. (Judge led)

    Forensic examination of everyone who stood on a public platform and how accurate their statements were.

    Then another vote.

    You are ed miliband and I claim my £5
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 91,408
    CD13 said:

    Mr kl4

    "I think we need a referendum on what type of leaving."

    What is defined a leaving? Surely making our own rules on trade agreements and control of borders is the bare minimum. Given that, we can happily discuss the minutiae.

    Any option which involves officially leaving the EU is leaving. I don't think something entirely BINO would work for the public, but clearly a range of options need to be presented.

    At the moment we're looking at accidental no deal, or things collapse and we even end up remaining. Some might consider a sub optimal brexit worse than remaining, some might consider no deal better than a sub optimal brexit, IDK, defining these things are another reason why going down such a route remains very problematic.

    But what we are currently doing is not working, and the Tories cannot pretend they can come together on this anymore.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 66,768
    edited July 2018

    He also addresses her as Theresa rather than as PM. Is that normal in such resignations?

    Certainly it was under Blair - Mandelson used 'Tony' both times, as I think did Blunkett. Not sure about Clarke, but he probably needed to be talked out of not using 'Dear Stuck-up sellout and wanker who couldn't organise a fuck up in a cathouse' to judge from the preceding interview.

    Edit - and Purnell used 'Gordon' on his famous 'I quit, now you quit' letter.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 91,408

    He also addresses her as Theresa rather than as PM. Is that normal in such resignations?

    That stuck out for me as well. You're resigning from the government man, address it to the Prime Minister.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 66,768
    Scott_P said:

    OK, alternative plan.

    Public enquiry. (Judge led)

    Forensic examination of everyone who stood on a public platform and how accurate their statements were.

    Then another vote.

    Given some of the things the official Remain campaign said I'm not sure that would end quite the way you might hope...
  • volcanopetevolcanopete Posts: 2,078
    Penny Mordaunt,best price 40-1 in next Tory leader market, has kept schtum so far as far as I can see.Could she be the leave candidate to take on TMay?
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 76,274
    edited July 2018
    Oh god the BBC’s used that twat with the big signs that has been bothering sky all day...don’t emboldened these idiots.
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 20,901

    Penny Mordaunt,best price 40-1 in next Tory leader market, has kept schtum so far as far as I can see.Could she be the leave candidate to take on TMay?

    At time like this Tories look for youniteeeee above all other things. Find the person who offers a semblance of that and you find the next leader.
  • MikeLMikeL Posts: 7,281
    Bernard Jenkin: "No sign of leadership challenge"

    Despite all the huffing and puffing, the Hard Brexiteers haven't got the numbers.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,713
    kle4 said:

    CD13 said:

    Mr kl4

    "I think we need a referendum on what type of leaving."

    What is defined a leaving? Surely making our own rules on trade agreements and control of borders is the bare minimum. Given that, we can happily discuss the minutiae.

    Any option which involves officially leaving the EU is leaving. I don't think something entirely BINO would work for the public, but clearly a range of options need to be presented.

    At the moment we're looking at accidental no deal, or things collapse and we even end up remaining. Some might consider a sub optimal brexit worse than remaining, some might consider no deal better than a sub optimal brexit, IDK, defining these things are another reason why going down such a route remains very problematic.

    But what we are currently doing is not working, and the Tories cannot pretend they can come together on this anymore.
    Nor can Labour
  • MikeLMikeL Posts: 7,281
    Robert Buckland:

    "Prospect of leadership challenge is out of the window"
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 76,274
    Sounds like Brenda from Bristol can stand down....
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 20,901
    MikeL said:

    Robert Buckland:

    "Prospect of leadership challenge is out of the window"

    No10 spinning like a Creda 1800.
  • old_labourold_labour Posts: 3,238
    Nigel Farage says he will seek to return to his former position as the leader of Ukip “if Article 50 is suspended or delayed”. In an article for the Daily Telegraph, he writes:

    In March 2019, the current leader of Ukip, Gerard Batten, will reach the end of his term in office. Unless Brexit is back on track by then, I will have to seriously consider putting my name forward to return as Ukip leader.





  • TheWhiteRabbitTheWhiteRabbit Posts: 12,387
    Jonathan said:

    MikeL said:

    Robert Buckland:

    "Prospect of leadership challenge is out of the window"

    No10 spinning like a Creda 1800.
    Bernard Jenkin is certainly not number 10
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 91,408
    HYUFD said:

    kle4 said:

    CD13 said:

    Mr kl4

    "I think we need a referendum on what type of leaving."

    What is defined a leaving? Surely making our own rules on trade agreements and control of borders is the bare minimum. Given that, we can happily discuss the minutiae.

    Any option which involves officially leaving the EU is leaving. I don't think something entirely BINO would work for the public, but clearly a range of options need to be presented.

    At the moment we're looking at accidental no deal, or things collapse and we even end up remaining. Some might consider a sub optimal brexit worse than remaining, some might consider no deal better than a sub optimal brexit, IDK, defining these things are another reason why going down such a route remains very problematic.

    But what we are currently doing is not working, and the Tories cannot pretend they can come together on this anymore.
    Nor can Labour
    Ah, but they can pretend a little longer, because they do not currently face the pressure of government. You seem to think that because they would likely face the same problems as the Tories that that means they won't be able to overtake them in the right circumstances.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,713
    Jonathan said:

    HYUFD said:

    Jonathan said:

    It would have been better if Ed Milliband had won

    Boris may well have then beaten him in 2020
    Good point,well made.
    Thankyou
  • PClippPClipp Posts: 2,138

    Jonathan said:

    Jonathan said:

    It would have been better if Ed Milliband had won

    Except that the EU problem wouldn't have gone away.

    It would have been better if the referendum had gone firmly the other way, or if Theresa May had got the decisive mandate she asked for, which would have given her the authority to do a deal and see off both the ultra-Brexiteers and the continuity Remainers with whom they are in an unholy alliance. And it would probably saved the Labour Party too.

    Voters voted for chaos, they are getting what they wanted.
    They were promised strong and stable. They got chaos. The Tories are the Southern Rail of political parties.
    They would have got Strong'n'Stable if they'd voted for it. They deliberately chose not to, so they have got Weak'n'Wobbly instead. That's what they wanted. It seemed disastrously daft to me, what with there being a tricky Brexit negotiation to do and all that, but there we go.
    They voted against a May Dictatorship.
  • GIN1138GIN1138 Posts: 20,697
    edited July 2018
    MikeL said:

    Bernard Jenkin: "No sign of leadership challenge"

    Despite all the huffing and puffing, the Hard Brexiteers haven't got the numbers.

    All these talking heads don't know any more than any one else. Nobody knows how many letters Brady has but it's gotta be close to 48 now IMO.

    Also we don't know if there's going to be more resignations. If Fox decides he's had enough or Javid, that really will be game up.
  • Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    ydoethur said:

    Given some of the things the official Remain campaign said I'm not sure that would end quite the way you might hope...

    I hope it ends in truth and reconciliation. Whatever that means.

    People in jail? Fine.

    Parties irrevocably split? Great!

    The referendum opened the wounds. We can't heal on our current course.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 91,408
    MikeL said:

    Bernard Jenkin: "No sign of leadership challenge"

    Despite all the huffing and puffing, the Hard Brexiteers haven't got the numbers.

    Not good news for the Tories. The agitators on various sides have enough numbers to prevent any agreement and action, but not enough to defeat the other side.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,713
    edited July 2018
    kle4 said:

    HYUFD said:

    kle4 said:

    CD13 said:

    Mr kl4

    "I think we need a referendum on what type of leaving."

    What is defined a leaving? Surely making our own rules on trade agreements and control of borders is the bare minimum. Given that, we can happily discuss the minutiae.

    Any option which involves officially leaving the EU is leaving. I don't think something entirely BINO would work for the public, but clearly a range of options need to be presented.

    At the moment we're looking at accidental no deal, or things collapse and we even end up remaining. Some might consider a sub optimal brexit worse than remaining, some might consider no deal better than a sub optimal brexit, IDK, defining these things are another reason why going down such a route remains very problematic.

    But what we are currently doing is not working, and the Tories cannot pretend they can come together on this anymore.
    Nor can Labour
    Ah, but they can pretend a little longer, because they do not currently face the pressure of government. You seem to think that because they would likely face the same problems as the Tories that that means they won't be able to overtake them in the right circumstances.
    Anybody can become PM in 'the right circumstances' does not mean they will.

    Corbyn fudged Brexit would be little different from May fudged Brexit and would still face opposition from pro EEA Labour backbenchers and Labour MPs from working class Leave seats
  • MikeLMikeL Posts: 7,281
    Take a look at Betfair - TMay exit odds in Q3 2018 and year 2018 both now falling back.
  • MikeLMikeL Posts: 7,281
    Who will be new Foreign Sec?

    Needs to be 1) Senior, 2) Leaver.

    So Gove?
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 91,408
    HYUFD said:

    kle4 said:

    HYUFD said:

    kle4 said:

    CD13 said:

    Mr kl4

    "I think we need a referendum on what type of leaving."

    What is defined a leaving? Surely making our own rules on trade agreements and control of borders is the bare minimum. Given that, we can happily discuss the minutiae.

    Any option which involves officially leaving the EU is leaving. I don't think something entirely BINO would work for the public, but clearly a range of options need to be presented.

    At the moment we're looking at accidental no deal, or things collapse and we even end up remaining. Some might consider a sub optimal brexit worse than remaining, some might consider no deal better than a sub optimal brexit, IDK, defining these things are another reason why going down such a route remains very problematic.

    But what we are currently doing is not working, and the Tories cannot pretend they can come together on this anymore.
    Nor can Labour
    Ah, but they can pretend a little longer, because they do not currently face the pressure of government. You seem to think that because they would likely face the same problems as the Tories that that means they won't be able to overtake them in the right circumstances.
    Anybody can become PM in 'the right circumstances' does not mean they will.

    No, but the circumstances that would allow it are not very far off now. A Tory party at war with itself, as it patently is, is such a circumstance.

    And once more you focus on how a Corbyn fudge would not be that different. That was not the point. The point was about how the Tories could suffer at Labour's hands, not that Labour will be able to do any better.
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 35,776
    kle4 said:

    MikeL said:

    Bernard Jenkin: "No sign of leadership challenge"

    Despite all the huffing and puffing, the Hard Brexiteers haven't got the numbers.

    Not good news for the Tories. The agitators on various sides have enough numbers to prevent any agreement and action, but not enough to defeat the other side.
    I think a No Confidence vote would be best. Either back the PM or sack her. Endless sniping helps nobody.
  • logical_songlogical_song Posts: 9,669
    PClipp said:

    Jonathan said:

    Jonathan said:

    It would have been better if Ed Milliband had won

    Except that the EU problem wouldn't have gone away.

    It would have been better if the referendum had gone firmly the other way, or if Theresa May had got the decisive mandate she asked for, which would have given her the authority to do a deal and see off both the ultra-Brexiteers and the continuity Remainers with whom they are in an unholy alliance. And it would probably saved the Labour Party too.

    Voters voted for chaos, they are getting what they wanted.
    They were promised strong and stable. They got chaos. The Tories are the Southern Rail of political parties.
    They would have got Strong'n'Stable if they'd voted for it. They deliberately chose not to, so they have got Weak'n'Wobbly instead. That's what they wanted. It seemed disastrously daft to me, what with there being a tricky Brexit negotiation to do and all that, but there we go.
    They voted against a May Dictatorship.
    Parts of the 48% didn't like being called saboteurs and didn't fancy getting 'crushed'.
  • welshowlwelshowl Posts: 4,460
    Scott_P said:

    ydoethur said:

    Given some of the things the official Remain campaign said I'm not sure that would end quite the way you might hope...

    I hope it ends in truth and reconciliation. Whatever that means.

    People in jail? Fine.

    Parties irrevocably split? Great!

    The referendum opened the wounds. We can't heal on our current course.
    The yawning gap was always there, created by the utter refusal of anyone in power for thirty odd years to bother asking the people if they agreed with the drift to ever closer union.

    Stop kidding yourself all was sweetness and light till Cameron called the referendum. He was just the patsy who was holding the ticking parcel when the timer went off.
  • GIN1138GIN1138 Posts: 20,697
    MikeL said:

    Who will be new Foreign Sec?

    Needs to be 1) Senior, 2) Leaver.

    So Gove?

    Wasn't there a rumour once he doesn't like flying?
  • kjohnwkjohnw Posts: 1,456
    kle4 said:

    MikeL said:

    Bernard Jenkin: "No sign of leadership challenge"

    Despite all the huffing and puffing, the Hard Brexiteers haven't got the numbers.

    Not good news for the Tories. The agitators on various sides have enough numbers to prevent any agreement and action, but not enough to defeat the other side.
    they will be keeping their powder dry to see what TM concedes to Brussels , any more sellout and she's toast
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 49,961
    Sean_F said:

    kle4 said:

    MikeL said:

    Bernard Jenkin: "No sign of leadership challenge"

    Despite all the huffing and puffing, the Hard Brexiteers haven't got the numbers.

    Not good news for the Tories. The agitators on various sides have enough numbers to prevent any agreement and action, but not enough to defeat the other side.
    I think a No Confidence vote would be best. Either back the PM or sack her. Endless sniping helps nobody.
    Looks like Brexiteer powder is being kept dry until the EU responds. If they say "Yes, but....", then getting further concessions will be the battle ground.

    As I said earlier, sajid Javid is key to this. If he thinks he can get to be PM, he will use the pretext of the UK making further concessions as grounds to resign.....

  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 35,776
    welshowl said:

    Scott_P said:

    ydoethur said:

    Given some of the things the official Remain campaign said I'm not sure that would end quite the way you might hope...

    I hope it ends in truth and reconciliation. Whatever that means.

    People in jail? Fine.

    Parties irrevocably split? Great!

    The referendum opened the wounds. We can't heal on our current course.
    The yawning gap was always there, created by the utter refusal of anyone in power for thirty odd years to bother asking the people if they agreed with the drift to ever closer union.

    Stop kidding yourself all was sweetness and light till Cameron called the referendum. He was just the patsy who was holding the ticking parcel when the timer went off.
    It would be pointless to claim that people were content with our position in the EU, until Cameron called a referendum.

    But, there were other grievances. Many people were angered by the GFC, and subsequent wage stagnation; they disliked mass migration and the pace of social change, and both traditional Conservatives and traditional socialists had been shut out of power for a long time.

  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,713
    Full YouGov Tory members next Tory leader runoff poll figures now available.

    Taking each candidate in turn:

    Mogg

    Mogg 60

    Hunt 40


    Mogg 52

    Davidson 48


    Mogg 72

    Williamson 28

    Mogg 64

    Mordaunt 36

    Mogg 51
    Javid 49

    Mogg 55
    Gove 45

    Mogg 56
    Johnson 44


    https://d25d2506sfb94s.cloudfront.net/cumulus_uploads/document/sfiq16wfpm/ConservativeMemberResults_180709_w.pdf
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 75,842
    Chris Green has resigned.
  • rpjsrpjs Posts: 3,787
    edited July 2018
    GIN1138 said:

    MikeL said:

    Who will be new Foreign Sec?

    Needs to be 1) Senior, 2) Leaver.

    So Gove?

    Wasn't there a rumour once he doesn't like flying?
    Well there's this:
    image
  • AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 30,340
    Pulpstar said:

    Chris Green has resigned.

    A nation mourns.

    His resignation letter refers to "independence", so that's a handy immediate tell that he's no loss to the government.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,713
    Javid


    Javid 55

    Johnson 45

    Javid 56

    Gove 44

    Javid 49

    Mogg 51

    Javid 68

    Hunt 32

    Javid 50

    Davidson 50

    Javid 77

    Williamson 23

    Javid 71

    Mordaunt 29


    https://d25d2506sfb94s.cloudfront.net/cumulus_uploads/document/sfiq16wfpm/ConservativeMemberResults_180709_w.pdf


  • StereotomyStereotomy Posts: 4,092

    Sean_F said:

    kle4 said:

    MikeL said:

    Bernard Jenkin: "No sign of leadership challenge"

    Despite all the huffing and puffing, the Hard Brexiteers haven't got the numbers.

    Not good news for the Tories. The agitators on various sides have enough numbers to prevent any agreement and action, but not enough to defeat the other side.
    I think a No Confidence vote would be best. Either back the PM or sack her. Endless sniping helps nobody.
    Looks like Brexiteer powder is being kept dry until the EU responds. If they say "Yes, but....", then getting further concessions will be the battle ground.

    As I said earlier, sajid Javid is key to this. If he thinks he can get to be PM, he will use the pretext of the UK making further concessions as grounds to resign.....

    Agree on both points. Though I could imagine some non-Leavers forcing an early vote in the expectation that May would win. Do the letters stay anonymous if a vote is triggered?
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,713
    Gove

    Gove 55

    Johnson 45

    Gove 44

    Javid 56

    Gove 45

    Mogg 55

    Gove 61

    Hunt 39

    Gove 46

    Davidson 54

    Gove 70

    Williamson 30

    Gove 66

    Mordaunt 34

    https://d25d2506sfb94s.cloudfront.net/cumulus_uploads/document/sfiq16wfpm/ConservativeMemberResults_180709_w.pdf
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 24,589
    welshowl said:

    Scott_P said:

    ydoethur said:

    Given some of the things the official Remain campaign said I'm not sure that would end quite the way you might hope...

    I hope it ends in truth and reconciliation. Whatever that means.

    People in jail? Fine.

    Parties irrevocably split? Great!

    The referendum opened the wounds. We can't heal on our current course.
    The yawning gap was always there, created by the utter refusal of anyone in power for thirty odd years to bother asking the people if they agreed with the drift to ever closer union.

    Stop kidding yourself all was sweetness and light till Cameron called the referendum. He was just the patsy who was holding the ticking parcel when the timer went off.
    No! The yawning gap was largely confined to the Conservative Party. True there were Leavers in Labour, but they preferred to vent their spleen on each other rather than the EU. Cameron, to mix metaphors, believed a once and for all referendum would lance that boil.It didn't, now the whole country is at each others throats. Camron set the timer and the ticking parcel went off in his face!
  • AnneJGPAnneJGP Posts: 2,869
    Scott_P said:

    OK, alternative plan.

    Public enquiry. (Judge led)

    Forensic examination of everyone who stood on a public platform and how accurate their statements were.

    Then another vote.

    How long is the public enquiry likely to last?

    Good evening, everyone.
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 35,776

    Sean_F said:

    kle4 said:

    MikeL said:

    Bernard Jenkin: "No sign of leadership challenge"

    Despite all the huffing and puffing, the Hard Brexiteers haven't got the numbers.

    Not good news for the Tories. The agitators on various sides have enough numbers to prevent any agreement and action, but not enough to defeat the other side.
    I think a No Confidence vote would be best. Either back the PM or sack her. Endless sniping helps nobody.
    Looks like Brexiteer powder is being kept dry until the EU responds. If they say "Yes, but....", then getting further concessions will be the battle ground.

    As I said earlier, sajid Javid is key to this. If he thinks he can get to be PM, he will use the pretext of the UK making further concessions as grounds to resign.....

    "if you have to shoot, shoot, don't talk."
  • ChameleonChameleon Posts: 3,886
    The really remarkable thing is how little support the LDs have gained, you couldn't design a better situations for them to prosper than this.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,713
    Johnson

    Johnson 45

    Gove 55

    Johnson 45

    Javid 55

    Johnson 44

    Mogg 56

    Johnson 46

    Davidson 54

    Johnson 67

    Williamson 33

    Johnson 59

    Mordaunt 41


    https://d25d2506sfb94s.cloudfront.net/cumulus_uploads/document/sfiq16wfpm/ConservativeMemberResults_180709_w.pdf
  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 23,559

    welshowl said:

    Scott_P said:

    ydoethur said:

    Given some of the things the official Remain campaign said I'm not sure that would end quite the way you might hope...

    I hope it ends in truth and reconciliation. Whatever that means.

    People in jail? Fine.

    Parties irrevocably split? Great!

    The referendum opened the wounds. We can't heal on our current course.
    The yawning gap was always there, created by the utter refusal of anyone in power for thirty odd years to bother asking the people if they agreed with the drift to ever closer union.

    Stop kidding yourself all was sweetness and light till Cameron called the referendum. He was just the patsy who was holding the ticking parcel when the timer went off.
    No! The yawning gap was largely confined to the Conservative Party. True there were Leavers in Labour, but they preferred to vent their spleen on each other rather than the EU. Cameron, to mix metaphors, believed a once and for all referendum would lance that boil.It didn't, now the whole country is at each others throats. Camron set the timer and the ticking parcel went off in his face!
    oh ffs look at a vote map

    whole areas of traditional labour support voted leave

    London was the only region of England that didn't, are you going to claim Wales is a Tory heartland
  • FregglesFreggles Posts: 3,486
    welshowl said:

    Scott_P said:

    ydoethur said:

    Given some of the things the official Remain campaign said I'm not sure that would end quite the way you might hope...

    I hope it ends in truth and reconciliation. Whatever that means.

    People in jail? Fine.

    Parties irrevocably split? Great!

    The referendum opened the wounds. We can't heal on our current course.
    The yawning gap was always there, created by the utter refusal of anyone in power for thirty odd years to bother asking the people if they agreed with the drift to ever closer union.

    Stop kidding yourself all was sweetness and light till Cameron called the referendum. He was just the patsy who was holding the ticking parcel when the timer went off.
    Er... Pretty sure the Tories elected a couple of eurosceptic leaders and got absolutely mullered.
    FIVE DAYS TO SAVE THE POUND!!!!!!!!

    And then there is UKIP's epic failure to ever win a single Westminster seat.

    So yes there has been a minority of malcontents for some tonne. But it was only when well known leaders like Boris started promising free owls that Leave managed to scrape together a majority coalition.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 24,589
    HYUFD said:

    Johnson

    Johnson 45

    Gove 55

    Johnson 45

    Javid 55

    Johnson 44

    Mogg 56

    Johnson 46

    Davidson 54

    Johnson 67

    Williamson 33

    Johnson 59

    Mordaunt 41


    https://d25d2506sfb94s.cloudfront.net/cumulus_uploads/document/sfiq16wfpm/ConservativeMemberResults_180709_w.pdf

    Johnson out of the running, that is some comfort anyway. BTW since when was Davidson in the HoC? Have I missed something?
  • dr_spyndr_spyn Posts: 11,279
    rpjs said:

    Is there some remote one we can send him to?
    "Sir! you have disappointed us!
    We had intended you to be
    The next Prime Minister but three:
    The stocks were sold; the Press was squared:
    The Middle Class was quite prepared.
    But as it is! . . . My language fails!
    Go out and govern New South Wales!"
    @rpjs You are Lord Lundy and I claim my £5.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 24,589

    welshowl said:

    Scott_P said:

    ydoethur said:

    Given some of the things the official Remain campaign said I'm not sure that would end quite the way you might hope...

    I hope it ends in truth and reconciliation. Whatever that means.

    People in jail? Fine.

    Parties irrevocably split? Great!

    The referendum opened the wounds. We can't heal on our current course.
    The yawning gap was always there, created by the utter refusal of anyone in power for thirty odd years to bother asking the people if they agreed with the drift to ever closer union.

    Stop kidding yourself all was sweetness and light till Cameron called the referendum. He was just the patsy who was holding the ticking parcel when the timer went off.
    No! The yawning gap was largely confined to the Conservative Party. True there were Leavers in Labour, but they preferred to vent their spleen on each other rather than the EU. Cameron, to mix metaphors, believed a once and for all referendum would lance that boil.It didn't, now the whole country is at each others throats. Camron set the timer and the ticking parcel went off in his face!
    oh ffs look at a vote map

    whole areas of traditional labour support voted leave

    London was the only region of England that didn't, are you going to claim Wales is a Tory heartland
    Until Cameron called the referendum nobody outside the Conservative Party gave two shits. It was only after the referendum was called that Labour heartland voters realised all their woes were the result of immigration and the EU- which was the point!
  • welshowlwelshowl Posts: 4,460

    welshowl said:

    Scott_P said:

    ydoethur said:

    Given some of the things the official Remain campaign said I'm not sure that would end quite the way you might hope...

    I hope it ends in truth and reconciliation. Whatever that means.

    People in jail? Fine.

    Parties irrevocably split? Great!

    The referendum opened the wounds. We can't heal on our current course.
    The yawning gap was always there, created by the utter refusal of anyone in power for thirty odd years to bother asking the people if they agreed with the drift to ever closer union.

    Stop kidding yourself all was sweetness and light till Cameron called the referendum. He was just the patsy who was holding the ticking parcel when the timer went off.
    No! The yawning gap was largely confined to the Conservative Party. True there were Leavers in Labour, but they preferred to vent their spleen on each other rather than the EU. Cameron, to mix metaphors, believed a once and for all referendum would lance that boil.It didn't, now the whole country is at each others throats. Camron set the timer and the ticking parcel went off in his face!
    Maastricht built the clock, Blair’s lack of transition controls wound it up, and the shocking reneging on a vote on Lisbon with Brown signing vetos away under cover of darkness, set it going. it was well ticking by the time Cameron picked it up and tried to tinker with it by shaking it a bit around European capitals.

    People had no effective means of really voting till June 2016 hence the shock to the system when the vote went the “wrong” way.
  • FregglesFreggles Posts: 3,486

    welshowl said:

    Scott_P said:

    ydoethur said:

    Given some of the things the official Remain campaign said I'm not sure that would end quite the way you might hope...

    I hope it ends in truth and reconciliation. Whatever that means.

    People in jail? Fine.

    Parties irrevocably split? Great!

    The referendum opened the wounds. We can't heal on our current course.
    The yawning gap was always there, created by the utter refusal of anyone in power for thirty odd years to bother asking the people if they agreed with the drift to ever closer union.

    Stop kidding yourself all was sweetness and light till Cameron called the referendum. He was just the patsy who was holding the ticking parcel when the timer went off.
    No! The yawning gap was largely confined to the Conservative Party. True there were Leavers in Labour, but they preferred to vent their spleen on each other rather than the EU. Cameron, to mix metaphors, believed a once and for all referendum would lance that boil.It didn't, now the whole country is at each others throats. Camron set the timer and the ticking parcel went off in his face!
    oh ffs look at a vote map

    whole areas of traditional labour support voted leave

    London was the only region of England that didn't, are you going to claim Wales is a Tory heartland
    Not this again.

    Most Labour voters voted Remain. What everyone else in their constituency did makes no difference.
  • FloaterFloater Posts: 14,195
    Jonathan said:

    This is what a Tory govt looks like kids. That's why we didn't have one for 13 years.

    gosh - coz Labour were so much better

    Both utter shite
  • glwglw Posts: 9,535
    Scott_P said:
    I have a hunch, but taking legal advice from the future I won't be spelling it out.
  • FloaterFloater Posts: 14,195
    Jonathan said:

    It would have been better if Ed Milliband had won

    Nope
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 49,614
    Well, that was poor timing on my behalf to go to dinner about a minute before Boris resigned. Hope people got the 10/1 that Paddy were advertising on the last thread.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 76,274
    glw said:

    Scott_P said:
    I have a hunch, but taking legal advice from the future I won't be spelling it out.
    Could do an ICO...Blockchain brexit...
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 60,004
    Sarah Wollaston and Crispin Blunt on Sky both affirm TM received widescale backing at the 1922 meeting and there will not be a VONC
  • StereotomyStereotomy Posts: 4,092
    Chameleon said:

    The really remarkable thing is how little support the LDs have gained, you couldn't design a better situations for them to prosper than this.

    I think I could. It would involve not having betrayed a headline commitment which was hugely important to many of their voters, not having undercut their function as a tactical vote by making it clear they'd swallow whatever the largest party wanted to feed them for a turn in government, not having a leader who seems incapable of getting any press coverage at all, and not being economic centrists in an era of increased polarisation.
  • FloaterFloater Posts: 14,195
    Listening to Sky news they will not accept that plan anyway.

    Woman seems to suggest we should have another vote and stay
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 24,589
    welshowl said:

    welshowl said:

    Scott_P said:

    ydoethur said:

    Given some of the things the official Remain campaign said I'm not sure that would end quite the way you might hope...

    I hope it ends in truth and reconciliation. Whatever that means.

    People in jail? Fine.

    Parties irrevocably split? Great!

    The referendum opened the wounds. We can't heal on our current course.
    The yawning gap was always there, created by the utter refusal of anyone in power for thirty odd years to bother asking the people if they agreed with the drift to ever closer union.

    Stop kidding yourself all was sweetness and light till Cameron called the referendum. He was just the patsy who was holding the ticking parcel when the timer went off.
    No! The yawning gap was largely confined to the Conservative Party. True there were Leavers in Labour, but they preferred to vent their spleen on each other rather than the EU. Cameron, to mix metaphors, believed a once and for all referendum would lance that boil.It didn't, now the whole country is at each others throats. Camron set the timer and the ticking parcel went off in his face!
    Maastricht built the clock, Blair’s lack of transition controls wound it up, and the shocking reneging on a vote on Lisbon with Brown signing vetos away under cover of darkness, set it going. it was well ticking by the time Cameron picked it up and tried to tinker with it by shaking it a bit around European capitals.

    People had no effective means of really voting till June 2016 hence the shock to the system when the vote went the “wrong” way.
    ...and who were Majors 'Bastards'. They were the same people hoodwinking us in 2016. They banged the drum for twenty years and no one really listened until the referendum, which Cameron called on the basis that he expected to win. Yes the immediate invitation to accession state immigrants became a major issue, and that seen as an achilles heel to the Remain campaign, and man was it exploited by the Brexiteers!
  • GIN1138GIN1138 Posts: 20,697

    Sarah Wollaston and Crispin Blunt on Sky both affirm TM received widescale backing at the 1922 meeting and there will not be a VONC

    As though they would say anything else at this point.

    They don't know how many letters Brady had anymore than me or you do.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 49,961
    80-odd Tory MPs at an ERG meeting at the same time as the 1922 meeting - Channel 4
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 20,901

    Sarah Wollaston and Crispin Blunt on Sky both affirm TM received widescale backing at the 1922 meeting and there will not be a VONC

    How can they know that? You need 48 anonymous letters from 300.
  • FloaterFloater Posts: 14,195
    Jonathan said:

    Jonathan said:

    It would have been better if Ed Milliband had won

    Except that the EU problem wouldn't have gone away.

    It would have been better if the referendum had gone firmly the other way, or if Theresa May had got the decisive mandate she asked for, which would have given her the authority to do a deal and see off both the ultra-Brexiteers and the continuity Remainers with whom they are in an unholy alliance. And it would probably saved the Labour Party too.

    Voters voted for chaos, they are getting what they wanted.
    They were promised strong and stable. They got chaos. The Tories are the Southern Rail of political parties.
    Oh come on your tribe is just as shit and riven with dissent
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 66,768
    I was confused there for a while because I was sure Chris Green had retired many years ago. Then I realised it was an obscure PPS and not the former manager of Virgin Rail.
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 60,004
    Jonathan said:

    Sarah Wollaston and Crispin Blunt on Sky both affirm TM received widescale backing at the 1922 meeting and there will not be a VONC

    How can they know that? You need 48 anonymous letters from 300.
    They said even if there was 48 they would not get many more. They were clear TM would win a VNOC easily and they were at the meeting
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 37,603
    Jonathan said:

    Sarah Wollaston and Crispin Blunt on Sky both affirm TM received widescale backing at the 1922 meeting and there will not be a VONC

    How can they know that? You need 48 anonymous letters from 300.
    Indeed. The 1922 shows of loyalty are just that, a public show. Behind closed doors right now there are plots brewing and knives being sharpened. If Theresa survives to the end of the week I'd be surprised.
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 37,603

    Jonathan said:

    Sarah Wollaston and Crispin Blunt on Sky both affirm TM received widescale backing at the 1922 meeting and there will not be a VONC

    How can they know that? You need 48 anonymous letters from 300.
    They said even if there was 48 they would not get many more. They were clear TM would win a VNOC easily and they were at the meeting
    As if people intending to vote against her would share it with her most extreme loyalists. It's a completely anonymous vote. If anything they will back her in public and stick the knife in once the cameras are off.
  • tottenhamWCtottenhamWC Posts: 352
    Think the following plan would be interesting:
    The PM to say that she has insufficient support to agree a Brexit deal within the Tory party and get this through parliament.
    Given this, she has no option but to reach out to the broader House of Commons and talk to other parties (as she is already effectively doing).
    When she fails to do this (as it is unlikely to succeed); she then says:
    - Despite our best efforts, we have simply been unable to agree a deal with the EU
    - Given this, we are faced with two fundamental - and clear - choices: (i) leaving the EU on a no deal basis (but we will leave) or (ii) going back to the position from before the referendum; and we seek to reverse article 50. To be decided by a final referendum.....
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 20,901

    Jonathan said:

    Sarah Wollaston and Crispin Blunt on Sky both affirm TM received widescale backing at the 1922 meeting and there will not be a VONC

    How can they know that? You need 48 anonymous letters from 300.
    They said even if there was 48 they would not get many more. They were clear TM would win a VNOC easily and they were at the meeting
    They always say that, Thatcher had full support right up until she didn’t. In a secret ballot the world can look very different.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 49,614

    HYUFD said:

    Johnson

    Johnson 45

    Gove 55

    Johnson 45

    Javid 55

    Johnson 44

    Mogg 56

    Johnson 46

    Davidson 54

    Johnson 67

    Williamson 33

    Johnson 59

    Mordaunt 41


    https://d25d2506sfb94s.cloudfront.net/cumulus_uploads/document/sfiq16wfpm/ConservativeMemberResults_180709_w.pdf

    Johnson out of the running, that is some comfort anyway. BTW since when was Davidson in the HoC? Have I missed something?
    Keep laying Ruth Davidson on Betfair, she’s not eligible to stand as she isn’t an MP.
  • welshowlwelshowl Posts: 4,460

    welshowl said:

    welshowl said:

    Scott_P said:

    ydoethur said:

    Given some of the things the official Remain campaign said I'm not sure that would end quite the way you might hope...

    I hope it ends in truth and reconciliation. Whatever that means.

    People in jail? Fine.

    Parties irrevocably split? Great!

    The referendum opened the wounds. We can't heal on our current course.
    The yawning gap was always there, created by the utter refusal of anyone in power for thirty odd years to bother asking the people if they agreed with the drift to ever closer union.

    Stop kidding yourself all was sweetness and light till Cameron called the referendum. He was just the patsy who was holding the ticking parcel when the timer went off.
    No! The yawning gap was largely confined to the Conservative Party. True there were Leavers in Labour, but they preferred to vent their spleen on each other rather than the EU. Cameron, to mix metaphors, believed a once and for all referendum would lance that boil.It didn't, now the whole country is at each others throats. Camron set the timer and the ticking parcel went off in his face!
    Maastricht built the clock, Blair’s lack of transition controls wound it up, and the shocking reneging on a vote on Lisbon with Brown signing vetos away under cover of darkness, set it going. it was well ticking by the time Cameron picked it up and tried to tinker with it by shaking it a bit around European capitals.

    People had no effective means of really voting till June 2016 hence the shock to the system when the vote went the “wrong” way.
    ...and who were Majors 'Bastards'. They were the same people hoodwinking us in 2016. They banged the drum for twenty years and no one really listened until the referendum, which Cameron called on the basis that he expected to win. Yes the immediate invitation to accession state immigrants became a major issue, and that seen as an achilles heel to the Remain campaign, and man was it exploited by the Brexiteers!
    Well of course it was. Because it’s a symptom of having given away too much control over the years.
  • JohnOJohnO Posts: 4,211
    MaxPB said:

    Jonathan said:

    Sarah Wollaston and Crispin Blunt on Sky both affirm TM received widescale backing at the 1922 meeting and there will not be a VONC

    How can they know that? You need 48 anonymous letters from 300.
    Indeed. The 1922 shows of loyalty are just that, a public show. Behind closed doors right now there are plots brewing and knives being sharpened. If Theresa survives to the end of the week I'd be surprised.
    Fancy a wee wager on that?
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 60,004
    MaxPB said:

    Jonathan said:

    Sarah Wollaston and Crispin Blunt on Sky both affirm TM received widescale backing at the 1922 meeting and there will not be a VONC

    How can they know that? You need 48 anonymous letters from 300.
    Indeed. The 1922 shows of loyalty are just that, a public show. Behind closed doors right now there are plots brewing and knives being sharpened. If Theresa survives to the end of the week I'd be surprised.
    You mean she will get 158 MPs to vote her down in a VONC. There is no evidence that she has that number of MPs against her and if necessary, bring on the vote
  • TomsToms Posts: 2,478
    "My grandma kept the house immaculate, with display cabinets filled with charming if not particularly valuable china..."

    I'm surprised you didn't use the term "Delft rack".
    Personal comment: my terrace house escaped the ravages,especially popular in the 1960s, of ripping out fireplaces, walls, and other original fixtures: it still has its fitted Delft rack.

    "Leavers have been very clear about what they don’t want and completely befuddled about what they might actually want..."

    Another personal comment:
    Many of the brexitiers I have known "wanted their country back".
    But I can't see that they ever lost it.
    Now they're b***ering it up
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 76,274
    If there is one thing the Tory parliamentary party is good at, it is organising a coup.
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 37,603
    JohnO said:

    MaxPB said:

    Jonathan said:

    Sarah Wollaston and Crispin Blunt on Sky both affirm TM received widescale backing at the 1922 meeting and there will not be a VONC

    How can they know that? You need 48 anonymous letters from 300.
    Indeed. The 1922 shows of loyalty are just that, a public show. Behind closed doors right now there are plots brewing and knives being sharpened. If Theresa survives to the end of the week I'd be surprised.
    Fancy a wee wager on that?
    I want to wait until the EU response to the white paper, but I'll take you up on that afterwards.
  • GIN1138GIN1138 Posts: 20,697
    edited July 2018

    Think the following plan would be interesting:
    The PM to say that she has insufficient support to agree a Brexit deal within the Tory party and get this through parliament.
    Given this, she has no option but to reach out to the broader House of Commons and talk to other parties (as she is already effectively doing).
    When she fails to do this (as it is unlikely to succeed); she then says:
    - Despite our best efforts, we have simply been unable to agree a deal with the EU
    - Given this, we are faced with two fundamental - and clear - choices: (i) leaving the EU on a no deal basis (but we will leave) or (ii) going back to the position from before the referendum; and we seek to reverse article 50. To be decided by a final referendum.....

    There is no majority within the Commons to get a second referendum through.

    Then they'd be all sorts of wrangling for weeks and weeks over the wording. Probably at least one legal challenge and so on...

    March 2019 would be long gone by the time everything was ironed out.

    Oh and welcome to PB.
  • dr_spyndr_spyn Posts: 11,279
  • JohnOJohnO Posts: 4,211
    Jonathan said:

    Jonathan said:

    Sarah Wollaston and Crispin Blunt on Sky both affirm TM received widescale backing at the 1922 meeting and there will not be a VONC

    How can they know that? You need 48 anonymous letters from 300.
    They said even if there was 48 they would not get many more. They were clear TM would win a VNOC easily and they were at the meeting
    They always say that, Thatcher had full support right up until she didn’t. In a secret ballot the world can look very different.
    No, the year before she was given a warning by the better than expected challenge from the Stalking Donkey, aka as Sir Anthony Meyer.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 66,768
    Floater said:

    Jonathan said:

    Jonathan said:

    It would have been better if Ed Milliband had won

    Except that the EU problem wouldn't have gone away.

    It would have been better if the referendum had gone firmly the other way, or if Theresa May had got the decisive mandate she asked for, which would have given her the authority to do a deal and see off both the ultra-Brexiteers and the continuity Remainers with whom they are in an unholy alliance. And it would probably saved the Labour Party too.

    Voters voted for chaos, they are getting what they wanted.
    They were promised strong and stable. They got chaos. The Tories are the Southern Rail of political parties.
    Oh come on your tribe is just as shit and riven with dissent
    Tories - Northern Rail. Always clapped out, struggling on, no sign of joining the real world, ignored by all those smug southern types who know better

    Labour - Govia. Promising millions of things but never delivering because (a) they can't afford it and (b) even if they could, they're just basically a bunch of incompetent shits.

    Liberal Democrats - First Great Western. Huge geographical reach but only stop in a few places, most of them a long way from anywhere useful. Were once popular in the West Country and Wales.

    SNP - Chiltern Trains. Setting advanced standards, but only in a small area. Attempts to break out are either unsuccessful or disastrous.

    Greens - the Wrekin Giant. Everyone praises them but because there are only a handful of them and they don't leave at convenient moments nobody uses them.

    UKIP - the Oxford, Worcester and Wolverhampton. Big in parts a long time ago, now forgotten.

    BNP - the Somerset and Dorset. Small bunch of weirdos who don't have a clue that the big boys point and laugh at, but keep going as useful idiots.
  • brendan16brendan16 Posts: 2,315

    Think the following plan would be interesting:
    The PM to say that she has insufficient support to agree a Brexit deal within the Tory party and get this through parliament.
    Given this, she has no option but to reach out to the broader House of Commons and talk to other parties (as she is already effectively doing).
    When she fails to do this (as it is unlikely to succeed); she then says:
    - Despite our best efforts, we have simply been unable to agree a deal with the EU
    - Given this, we are faced with two fundamental - and clear - choices: (i) leaving the EU on a no deal basis (but we will leave) or (ii) going back to the position from before the referendum; and we seek to reverse article 50. To be decided by a final referendum.....

    Or give us a PM - of whatever party - who has the capacity, commitment and ability to agree a deal and drive it through?

    Can we guarantee withdrawing article 50 means the status quo? It has to be agreed by the other 27 - why wouldn't they hold out for something like ending the rebate or forcing us to join Schengen?

    And when does this vote get held - parliament would need to agree it first. Will she have the votes for it anyway?
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 61,585
    edited July 2018
    A resignation in defence of the principle of maintaining self-referential definitions.... novel.


    (edit) Grayling’s PPS ... of course.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 91,408
    William must be pleased - Boris saying the Brexit dream is dying is only a short step to saying it is dead.
  • maaarshmaaarsh Posts: 3,391
    Conor Burns gone too
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 75,842

    80-odd Tory MPs at an ERG meeting at the same time as the 1922 meeting - Channel 4

    Well no wonder the 1922 went so well if 80 odd of the most likely plotters were elsewhere.
  • anothernickanothernick Posts: 3,547

    Jonathan said:

    Sarah Wollaston and Crispin Blunt on Sky both affirm TM received widescale backing at the 1922 meeting and there will not be a VONC

    How can they know that? You need 48 anonymous letters from 300.
    They said even if there was 48 they would not get many more. They were clear TM would win a VNOC easily and they were at the meeting
    And what would her pitch be?

    Vote for me and I'll see you through to 2022 and beyond? No one would take that seriously.

    Vote for me and I'll cobble something together over the next nine months and then we'll go through all this again?

    Hmmmmmmm
This discussion has been closed.