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politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » The Milibands go to war against the Daily Mail – this could

SystemSystem Posts: 11,002
edited October 2013 in General

politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » The Milibands go to war against the Daily Mail – this could be a key moment

Of all the newspapers in the UK the Mail is the most influential politically. Its circulation remains more buoyant than the rest and it has the biggest online presence.

Read the full story here


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Comments

  • All publicity is good publicity.
  • I can't fathom out what the Mail are up to.

    I mean do they want reminding what they said about Hitler and The Blackshirts in the 30s?
  • OblitusSumMeOblitusSumMe Posts: 9,143
    Standing up for your Dad who was a war veteran has probably never done anyone any harm.
  • SlackbladderSlackbladder Posts: 9,704
    Ah, the days of Brown Love from Mr Dacre are well gone, aren't they.

    Let us not forget that the Mail is one of the biggest (if not the biggest) paper in terms of both print, and online.

    They've also never really been chummy with Cameron, so looks like that's changing in terms of their treatment of labour.
  • When I was 17 I said I wanted to see Scotland smashed.

    I was 17 during Euro 96.

    I compared Terry Venables to Edward Longshanks.
  • Standing up for your Dad who was a war veteran has probably never done anyone any harm.

    Good morning, Comrades!

    За Родину! За Сталина!

    http://www.great-victory1945.ru/za_rodinu_za_stalina.jpg
  • I wonder if the Mail will commission any polling on this?

    It may take push polling to a new level.

    Is Ed Miliband the son of a Marxist who hated The UK fit to be PM?

  • When I was 17 I said I wanted to see Scotland smashed.

    I was 17 during Euro 96.

    I compared Terry Venables to Edward Longshanks.

    I believe Edward wasn't averse to a bung..
  • It's a pity that it wasn't the Daily Express that ran this piece.

    We could have headlines like "Did Ed's father kill Diana and cause house prices to crash?"
  • PlatoPlato Posts: 15,724

    Ah, the days of Brown Love from Mr Dacre are well gone, aren't they.

    Let us not forget that the Mail is one of the biggest (if not the biggest) paper in terms of both print, and online.

    They've also never really been chummy with Cameron, so looks like that's changing in terms of their treatment of labour.

    That they've turned on EdM like this shows that his Socialism meme is worse than Cameron's greenery...
  • The Mail was only ever going to seek to destroy Miliband. Taking it on will not change that and may earn him some increased support among those whose votes he has a chance of getting. By going so nuclear so early the Mail may have overplayed its hand, but it will keep on dishing it out.
  • OblitusSumMeOblitusSumMe Posts: 9,143
    Given the juxtaposition that seant drew on the previous thread between the Mail's hatchet job on Ralph Miliband and the Guardian's dirty digging into the Cameron family financial affairs, it amuses me to link to this Guardian piece putting the famous Daily Mail "Hurrah for the Blackshirts" into historical context.
  • When I was 17 I said I wanted to see Scotland smashed.

    I was 17 during Euro 96.

    I compared Terry Venables to Edward Longshanks.

    I believe Edward wasn't averse to a bung..
    A red hot one somewhere where the sun doesn't shine?

  • PlatoPlato Posts: 15,724
    Chris Williamson @WilliamsonChris
    PMI shows UK manufacturers take on staff at fastest rate since May’11 as output growth surges => unemployment to fall pic.twitter.com/upJLVcaKaJ
  • If EdMs policies are shaped by his father, then we need to know about them. After all, we will be voting for a new government in two years, and he could conceivably be PM after that?

    Has he got something to hide?
  • Have the Mail produced any more evidence that Ed's dad hated Britain, beyond writing something nasty as a young man in his diary?

    That is no more evidence he hated Britain, as serving in the Navy for 3 years is for loving it.
  • The fact that both Davids, Miliband and Cameron have supported Ed tells you how bad the Mail has erred.
  • TheWatcherTheWatcher Posts: 5,262
    SouthamObserver said:

    » show previous quotes
    I imagine a nerve has been struck. The Mail has put together a hatchet job on his father, based around a lie, in order to attack him. The good news for Ed is that in doing this now the Mail's future attacks on him lose potency. There's no need to engage further. And the attack is so vile it will not be picked up and run with by others. So job done.

    The Mail will return to this, again and again.

    Miliband should have kept his mouth shut, and whined to Justine behind closed doors. Or his brother, if they remain on speaking terms. And it's hardly 'Statesman Like' to air this grievance in the open - it's not as if he isn't able to speak to the editor directly, unlike the average Joe.

    After last weeks threats to grab privately owned land, it would hardly be a surprise if he called for those newspapers he considers 'Enemies of the Public' to be seized by a Labour controlled State.

    Behold 'The Peoples Daily', of Kensington High Street. Dacre would be demoted to Lavatory Cleaner ,Class 1.

  • I wonder if the Mail will commission any polling on this?

    It may take push polling to a new level.

    Is Ed Miliband the son of a Marxist who hated The UK fit to be PM?

    But remember it will only matter on pb if the polling takes into account whether the 2010 LibDem voters agree that EdM's Marxist father will influence them to be more likely to support Labour. General Elections for the next thirty years are only about this slice of the electoral pie ...
  • SlackbladderSlackbladder Posts: 9,704

    Have the Mail produced any more evidence that Ed's dad hated Britain, beyond writing something nasty as a young man in his diary?

    That is no more evidence he hated Britain, as serving in the Navy for 3 years is for loving it.

    Whether he hated 'Britain' or not might be in doubt, but he certainly hated many of it's institutions.
  • edmundintokyoedmundintokyo Posts: 17,136

    I can't fathom out what the Mail are up to.

    I mean do they want reminding what they said about Hitler and The Blackshirts in the 30s?

    We're talking about the Daily Mail, they won't care what we're saying about them.

    Meanwhile we're talking about Ed Miliband during the Conservative conference, which is great for Ed Miliband.

    I'm not saying Labour and the Mail cooked this up between them for their mutual benefit, but if they had done, this is what they'd be doing.
  • anothernickanothernick Posts: 3,545

    I can't fathom out what the Mail are up to.

    I mean do they want reminding what they said about Hitler and The Blackshirts in the 30s?

    Or what they said about MMR vaccine in the 1990s.

  • One of the reasons I warmed to Ed as a person, was in an interview he was asked why he was so bookish and nerdish.

    He said when he was at school his father was ill and his father wanted his sons to be academic successes, so he didn't want to stress his father or make his health worth by getting bad grades.
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 39,742
    edited October 2013

    When I was 17 I said I wanted to see Scotland smashed.

    I was 17 during Euro 96.

    I compared Terry Venables to Edward Longshanks.

    I believe Edward wasn't averse to a bung..
    A red hot one somewhere where the sun doesn't shine?

    That was Edward's wee laddie. I'd imagine Longshanks was more a giver than a receiver in the red hot poker stakes.

  • dr_spyndr_spyn Posts: 11,279
    Miliband Snr like Hobsbawn was clever man, but myopic when it came to consideration of the excesses of Soviet ideologies.

    Perhaps if more of the Left in the UK had suffered in the same way as those in Eastern Europe, Ukraine, Russia from the arbitrary arrests, the forced labour and Article 58 of The USSR's penal code they might understand why apologists for Stalinist socialism are fair game.
  • When I was 17 I said I wanted to see Scotland smashed.

    I was 17 during Euro 96.

    I compared Terry Venables to Edward Longshanks.

    I believe Edward wasn't averse to a bung..
    A red hot one somewhere where the sun doesn't shine?

    That was Edward's wee laddie. I'd imagine Longshanks was more a giver than a receiver in the red hot poker stakes.

    Yes it was.

    Bah I need a refresher on the Longshanks.

  • MarkSeniorMarkSenior Posts: 4,699
    I wonder if Daily Mail journalists and editors have an annual meeting on April 20th in a secret cellar to remember and celebrate the one they gave so much support to .
  • AnorakAnorak Posts: 6,621
    edited October 2013

    I can't fathom out what the Mail are up to.

    I mean do they want reminding what they said about Hitler and The Blackshirts in the 30s?

    Or what they said about MMR vaccine in the 1990s.

    If only they'd stopped in the '90s. Here's a random example from 2006. They didn't stop then.

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-388051/Scientists-fear-MMR-link-autism.html
  • TheWatcherTheWatcher Posts: 5,262

    If EdMs policies are shaped by his father, then we need to know about them. After all, we will be voting for a new government in two years, and he could conceivably be PM after that?

    Indeed.

    Cameron's parents, and the choices they made for their children have always been seen as 'fair game' by many.

    Why should it be any different for Miliband?

  • Ironic to wake up today at 630am and hear Ed Miliband protecting the legacy of his dad Ralph Miliband.

    Then we have the Ralph Miliband lecture at the LSE in Oct 2010 delivered on 25 May 2010 by Saif al-Islam Gaddafi ....10 months later on 6 March 2011, David Miliband finally was critical of the LSE's decision, but two days later gave a lecture at LSE on 8 March where he made reference to the school's early history of economic liberalism combined with social justice.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/London_School_of_Economics_Gaddafi_links

    Someone will now deny that Jack Jones TUC Head was not paid by the KGB for 45 years.
    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1218922/JACK-THE-TRAITOR-Special-investigation-reveals-Union-boss-sold-secrets-KGB-45-years.html

    In January 1977 a Gallup opinion poll found that 54% of people believed that Jones was the most powerful person in Britain, ahead of the Prime Minister.
  • PolruanPolruan Posts: 2,083

    Behold 'The Peoples Daily', of Kensington High Street. Dacre would be demoted to Lavatory Cleaner ,Class 1.

    That's a policy all sides should be able to rally around, regardless of ideology or affiliation.
  • SlackbladderSlackbladder Posts: 9,704

    Ironic to wake up today at 630am and hear Ed Miliband protecting the legacy of his dad Ralph Miliband.

    Then we have the Ralph Miliband lecture at the LSE in Oct 2010 delivered on 25 May 2010 by Saif al-Islam Gaddafi ....10 months later on 6 March 2011, David Miliband finally was critical of the LSE's decision, but two days later gave a lecture at LSE on 8 March where he made reference to the school's early history of economic liberalism combined with social justice.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/London_School_of_Economics_Gaddafi_links

    Someone will now deny that Jack Jones TUC Head was not paid by the KGB for 45 years.
    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1218922/JACK-THE-TRAITOR-Special-investigation-reveals-Union-boss-sold-secrets-KGB-45-years.html

    In January 1977 a Gallup opinion poll found that 54% of people believed that Jones was the most powerful person in Britain, ahead of the Prime Minister.

    Labours links with Soviet Russia are well known:
    http://www.spectator.co.uk/features/5530388/kinnock-and-the-kremlin/
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 39,742
    edited October 2013
    tim said:


    Many people who post on here hate the BBC, the NHS and Trade Unions, your point being?

    Could you back up your claim re Soviet Russia on the previous thread please.

    I presume Winnie was well up to speed on Holodomor, the Gulags, purges and show trials when he came up with this cringeworthy stuff in 1942?

    'It was an experience of great interest to me to meet Premier Stalin ... It is very fortunate for Russia in her agony to have this great rugged war chief at her head. He is a man of massive outstanding personality, suited to the sombre and stormy times in which his life has been cast; a man of inexhaustible courage and will-power and a man direct and even blunt in speech, which, having been brought up in the House of Commons, I do not mind at all, especially when I have something to say of my own. Above all, he is a man with that saving sense of humour which is of high importance to all men and all nations, but particularly to great men and great nations. Stalin also left upon me the impression of a deep, cool wisdom and a complete absence of illusions of any kind. I believe I made him feel that we were good and faithful comrades in this war – but that, after all, is a matter which deeds not words will prove.'
  • AnorakAnorak Posts: 6,621
    edited October 2013

    tim said:


    Many people who post on here hate the BBC, the NHS and Trade Unions, your point being?

    Could you back up your claim re Soviet Russia on the previous thread please.

    I presume Winnie was well up to speed on Holodomor, the Gulags, purges and show trials when he came up with this cringeworthy stuff in 1942?

    'It was an experience of great interest to me to meet Premier Stalin ... It is very fortunate for Russia in her agony to have this great rugged war chief at her head. He is a man of massive outstanding personality, suited to the sombre and stormy times in which his life has been cast; a man of inexhaustible courage and will-power and a man direct and even blunt in speech, which, having been brought up in the House of Commons, I do not mind at all, especially when I have something to say of my own. Above all, he is a man with that saving sense of humour which is of high importance to all men and all nations, but particularly to great men and great nations. Stalin also left upon me the impression of a deep, cool wisdom and a complete absence of illusions of any kind. I believe I made him feel that we were good and faithful comrades in this war – but that, after all, is a matter which deeds not words will prove.'
    Wartime. Enemy of enemy is my friend, etc, etc.

    Anyone who thinks that was his real view rather then propaganda is rather gullible, or is otherwise blinded by their prejudices.
  • What a silly response by Ed Miliband. Why on earth give the article so much publicity?

    In any case, he is the one who has repeatedly emphasised how much he was influenced by his father's political views. He can hardly complain if journalists write articles about how extreme those views were.
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 31,715

    Ironic to wake up today at 630am and hear Ed Miliband protecting the legacy of his dad Ralph Miliband.

    Then we have the Ralph Miliband lecture at the LSE in Oct 2010 delivered on 25 May 2010 by Saif al-Islam Gaddafi ....10 months later on 6 March 2011, David Miliband finally was critical of the LSE's decision, but two days later gave a lecture at LSE on 8 March where he made reference to the school's early history of economic liberalism combined with social justice.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/London_School_of_Economics_Gaddafi_links

    Someone will now deny that Jack Jones TUC Head was not paid by the KGB for 45 years.
    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1218922/JACK-THE-TRAITOR-Special-investigation-reveals-Union-boss-sold-secrets-KGB-45-years.html

    In January 1977 a Gallup opinion poll found that 54% of people believed that Jones was the most powerful person in Britain, ahead of the Prime Minister.

    You can hardly blame a dead man for the decisions of the trustees of his legacy, especially when those trustees may well not have been in post when he "chose" them!
  • dr_spyn said:

    Miliband Snr like Hobsbawn was clever man, but myopic when it came to consideration of the excesses of Soviet ideologies.

    Perhaps if more of the Left in the UK had suffered in the same way as those in Eastern Europe, Ukraine, Russia from the arbitrary arrests, the forced labour and Article 58 of The USSR's penal code they might understand why apologists for Stalinist socialism are fair game.

    Ralph Miliband rejected Soviet communism in the 1940s, when he became an adult, and was never a member of the Communist Party.

  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 39,742
    edited October 2013
    Anorak said:


    Wartime. Enemy of enemy is my friend, etc, etc.

    Anyone who thinks that was his real view rather then propaganda is rather gullible, or is otherwise blinded by their prejudices.

    Difficult to tell with such a weathervane, though one might think that level of arslikkan was excessive whatever the circumstances. Only 7 years before WC was bigging up Hitler; perhaps Adolf was the enemy of his enemy Josef at that point?
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 37,603
    It all seems a bit too much from the Mail. They should have just printed the excerpts and let their readers decide what kind of man Mili Snr was rather than overtly saying "Britain hater" and such.

    I don't think it will hurt Ed M too much tbh, to me this is the same as when The Sun attacked Gordon Brown's handwritten note to the widow of a soldier. All it will serve to do is elicit sympathy for Ed from undecideds.

    How can you fault a person for loving their father? It's a step too far IMO.
  • AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 30,340
    1) The Mail has newspapers to sell and clicks to bait. It won't mind if it gets them from publishing splenetic articles attacking Ed Miliband's father in hyperbolic terms or from Ed Miliband vehemently defending his father, or for that matter from further editorials and articles attacking Ed Miliband's father. It's all grist to the mill.

    2) Ed Miliband was right to respond, though the tone of his response wasn't great.

    3) I doubt Labour had been hoping for an endorsement from the Mail, but they might have hoped for its relative quiescence or a flirtation with UKIP. Both now seem unlikely.
  • Is Ed Miliband's line that only he should be allowed to do harm to members of his family? et tu, bruv?

    I note that in the comments below that Cameron has stood up for Miliband in regard to his dad, yet Miliband did not do that when the Guardian smeared Cameron's dad. Speaks volumes for Cameron's character.
  • What a silly response by Ed Miliband. Why on earth give the article so much publicity?

    In any case, he is the one who has repeatedly emphasised how much he was influenced by his father's political views. He can hardly complain if journalists write articles about how extreme those views were.

    Has Ed ever said he agreed with his father's views. Hasn't he, on numerous occasions, said he disagreed with them? Didn't his father say that he despaired of both his sons and their rejection of his beliefs? I think you'll find the answers to these questions are, in order, No, Yes, Yes. But people will believe what they want to believe.

  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 40,950
    if it was the aim to have PB.com spend all morning talking about the DM then it has been: mission accomplished.
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 37,603

    Is Ed Miliband's line that only he should be allowed to do harm to members of his family? et tu, bruv?

    I note that in the comments below that Cameron has stood up for Miliband in regard to his dad, yet Miliband did not do that when the Guardian smeared Cameron's dad. Speaks volumes for Cameron's character.

    It was probably Labour's spinners feeding the Guardian that story about Dave's tax dodging dad.
  • One of my great what ifs is what would have happened if Herr Hitler chose not to invade the CCCP.

    How would have World War II turned out?

    The carpet bombing of mainland Europe and then the atomic bombs dropped on German cities in
    1945?
  • anothernickanothernick Posts: 3,545
    MaxPB said:



    I don't think it will hurt Ed M too much tbh, to me this is the same as when The Sun attacked Gordon Brown's handwritten note to the widow of a soldier. All it will serve to do is elicit sympathy for Ed from undecideds.

    How can you fault a person for loving their father? It's a step too far IMO.

    Taking on the DM in such a direct way will make it harder for the Tories to portray EdM as weak and will also strike a chord with the 80% + of voters who consider journalists to be the least trustworthy people around (polling evidence which, strangely, does not get reported on very much).
  • old_labourold_labour Posts: 3,238
    I doubt Churchill would have supported Stalin if he had been arrested by a British court, now Maggie and Pinochet....
  • MaxPB said:



    I don't think it will hurt Ed M too much tbh, to me this is the same as when The Sun attacked Gordon Brown's handwritten note to the widow of a soldier. All it will serve to do is elicit sympathy for Ed from undecideds.

    How can you fault a person for loving their father? It's a step too far IMO.

    Taking on the DM in such a direct way will make it harder for the Tories to portray EdM as weak and will also strike a chord with the 80% + of voters who consider journalists to be the least trustworthy people around (polling evidence which, strangely, does not get reported on very much).

    Given the Mail was always going to be relentlessly hostile to Ed, there is no reason not to take them on. I imagine that among a certain portion of 2010 LDs this will do him a power of good. I certainly think better of him for not keeping quiet and hoping it will all blow over. With the Mail it never does.

  • dr_spyndr_spyn Posts: 11,279
    edited October 2013
    Miliband Snr one of Stalinism's useful idiots.

  • RichardNabaviRichardNabavi Posts: 3,413
    edited October 2013

    Has Ed ever said he agreed with his father's views. Hasn't he, on numerous occasions, said he disagreed with them? Didn't his father say that he despaired of both his sons and their rejection of his beliefs? I think you'll find the answers to these questions are, in order, No, Yes, Yes. But people will believe what they want to believe.

    I'm sure there were many interesting evenings where fine nuances of disagreement about dialectical materialism caused vigorous debate in the Miliband household, and the 'young and enthusiastic' Ed was indeed not totally convinced when his father took him to the annual Marxism events of the Socialist Workers Party*.

    But, as I said, it was Ed Miliband, not the Daily Mail, who brought up the subject of his father. What on earth did he expect - that journalists would murmur, "Ah, yes, Miliband Snr, a very wise man?"

    * See here, if you can stand the turgidity of the prose:

    http://www.isj.org.uk/?id=700
  • anothernickanothernick Posts: 3,545
    tim said:

    Anorak said:

    I can't fathom out what the Mail are up to.

    I mean do they want reminding what they said about Hitler and The Blackshirts in the 30s?

    Or what they said about MMR vaccine in the 1990s.

    If only they'd stopped in the '90s. Here's a random example from 2006. They didn't stop then.

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-388051/Scientists-fear-MMR-link-autism.html

    Paul Dacre HATES children without measles.
    Paul Dacre HATES. Period.
  • dr_spyndr_spyn Posts: 11,279
    At least Ed M hasn't said see you in court to The Mail over this...
  • dr_spyndr_spyn Posts: 11,279
    Dad, Dad, David's dissing my dialectic again.
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 37,603
    dr_spyn said:

    At least Ed M hasn't said see you in court to The Mail over this...

    You can't libel the dead.
  • GIN1138GIN1138 Posts: 20,695
    I doubt it will make much difference either way TBH.
  • FluffyThoughtsFluffyThoughts Posts: 2,420
    edited October 2013
    Another day, another example that correlation =/= causation. People who have served for the Crown and then fought against.
    • George Washington
    • Michael Collins
    • Ezer Weizman
    So service does not equate to loyalty. I am sure that others can add to the list....

    On a semantic point: Miliband Pere made an attack on "the English". Miliband Minor ays "he loved the British". Sounds a bit "Jack Straw"-like to me....
  • OllyTOllyT Posts: 4,911
    As someone elsewhere has mentioned Ed should also have pointed out that whilst his father was fleeing germany, the Daily Mail was singing Hitlers praises, bemoaning the influx of ‘bogus’ german jewsih refugees and producing headlines such as ‘hurrah for the blackshirts’.
  • PolruanPolruan Posts: 2,083

    Is Ed Miliband's line that only he should be allowed to do harm to members of his family? et tu, bruv?

    I note that in the comments below that Cameron has stood up for Miliband in regard to his dad, yet Miliband did not do that when the Guardian smeared Cameron's dad. Speaks volumes for Cameron's character.

    The Guardian didn't smear Cameron's dad, it published what was (AFAIK) an accurate story of his financial arrangements from which readers might or might not draw negative conclusions. The Mail writing an article about Ralph Miliband's views isn't a smear either; the tone of it, the extrapolations from a 17-year-old's EJ Thribbisms to "OMG Ed's Dad Hated UK!!!!" is. One article was an open personal attack, the other wasn't.
  • TheWatcherTheWatcher Posts: 5,262



    On a semantic point: Miliband Pere made an attack on "the English". Miliband Minor ays "he loved the British". Sounds a bit "Jack Straw"-like to me....

    Very telling. I'm sure it was a simple error.

  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 23,559
    Damian McBride's mate complains about dirty tricks in the press, ho hum he was happy enough to support them when it suited.

    The spat will simply reinforce everyone's prejudices and change little. DM haters will rant about the press and Miliband haters will say Red Ed. Something for all political anoraks.

    On the other hand I do wonder to what extent this will be the start of Miliband reaping what he sowed at Leveson. Will the other rags join in ?
  • Has Ed ever said he agreed with his father's views. Hasn't he, on numerous occasions, said he disagreed with them? Didn't his father say that he despaired of both his sons and their rejection of his beliefs? I think you'll find the answers to these questions are, in order, No, Yes, Yes. But people will believe what they want to believe.

    I'm sure there were many interesting evenings where fine nuances of disagreement about dialectical materialism caused vigorous debate in the Miliband household, and the 'young and enthusiastic' Ed was indeed not totally convinced when his father took him to the annual Marxism events of the Socialist Workers Party*.

    But, as I said, it was Ed Miliband, not the Daily Mail, who brought up the subject of his father. What on earth did he expect - that journalists would murmur, "Ah, yes, Miliband Snr, a very wise man?"

    * See here, if you can stand the turgidity of the prose:

    http://www.isj.org.uk/?id=700

    All politicians talk about their families. A balanced report - such as the ones you profess to be so keen on when criticising coverage of Tories - would have noted Ed's explicit rejection of his father's beliefs, as well as his father's sadness at that rejection. It would also have noted Ralph's rejection of Stalinism and of violent revolution. But as we both know, the Mail was not interested in providing a balanced overview. It wanted to get Ed. That was always going to happen. At least Ed has stood up for himself. Good on him.

  • old_labourold_labour Posts: 3,238
    edited October 2013
  • Boris about to deliver his speech now.
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 60,933
    Bah. Nishikori won. Melzer was a set up and serving for the match but lost the second set and rather collapsed 6-2 in the third. Rather disappointed, to be honest. However, it was a 3.9 shot, and they won't all come off.
  • FinancierFinancier Posts: 3,916
    EdM's big mistake was to threaten Nationalisation of Land - so it is not surprising that the source of the conception of this political doctrine is examined. When he has nationalised that, what next is on his agenda for nationalisation? Is he wanting to turn the clock back to the late 1940s? These are all valid questions.

    His other mistake was to promise price regulation of energy - an international commodity that is traded daily and is subject to supply and demand. The UK can only control UK energy prices when it is self-sufficient in energy - which it is not. Not only does the UK have insufficient gas storage facilities, but it has to import even more of its energy as N Sea production declines. Of course fracking would help, but the Greens who are quite happy to use hydrocarbons to get to their protest sites, do not want economic energy sources for the UK.
  • Bah. Nishikori won. Melzer was a set up and serving for the match but lost the second set and rather collapsed 6-2 in the third. Rather disappointed, to be honest. However, it was a 3.9 shot, and they won't all come off.

    Huzzah, I backed Nishikori.
  • PlatoPlato Posts: 15,724
    Dearie me

    Iain @Iain_33
    Labour frontbencher Kevin Brennan attacking Dave for being "out of touch" for having home made bread
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 60,933
    Mr. Eagles, I know, you posted so at the time.

    It felt (after seeing the result) like a 50/50 shot, so 3.9 (got up to 4.6 at one point) was well worth a shot, even though it didn't come off this time.
  • SeanT said:

    The fact that both Davids, Miliband and Cameron have supported Ed tells you how bad the Mail has erred.

    No, this is exactly what the Tories want. They can look statesmanlike and magnanimous - reaching out to protect little Ed - while the Mail goes on, its is inimitable way, pointing out some awkward facts - and they are facts, however polemically expressed - about Ed's Marxist, English-hating dad. Just as Ed himself has come out as a socialist.

    And oh, btw, for all those banging on about the Mail supporting the Nazis. What's this? -

    http://www.annaraccoon.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/11/daily-mirror-give-the-blackshirts-a-helping-hand.jpg

    The Daily Mirror, running a think piece by its owner, advising Brits to join the Blackshirts.

    The Daily Mirror. lol.
    Yeah, that Viscount Rothermere was also the owner of the Daily Mail.

    A hint, the Rothermere family still own one of those papers. It ain't the mirror.
  • NeilNeil Posts: 7,983
    Financier said:

    When he has nationalised that, what next is on his agenda for nationalisation? Is he wanting to turn the clock back to the late 1940s? These are all valid questions.

    I bet you a million pounds the answer is no.
  • FinancierFinancier Posts: 3,916
    edited October 2013
    Plato said:

    Dearie me

    Iain @Iain_33
    Labour frontbencher Kevin Brennan attacking Dave for being "out of touch" for having home made bread

    It is far more economic and healthier to eat home-made bread - no additives for shelf-life. My experience is it does not stay long enough in the bread bin to justify shelf-life requirements..
  • Mr. Eagles, I know, you posted so at the time.

    It felt (after seeing the result) like a 50/50 shot, so 3.9 (got up to 4.6 at one point) was well worth a shot, even though it didn't come off this time.

    These things happen.

    We can't all be Caesars and win all the time, we're all mere Hannibals, and win as many as we lose.
  • PlatoPlato Posts: 15,724
    SeanT said:

    The fact that both Davids, Miliband and Cameron have supported Ed tells you how bad the Mail has erred.

    No, this is exactly what the Tories want. They can look statesmanlike and magnanimous - reaching out to protect little Ed - while the Mail goes on, its is inimitable way, pointing out some awkward facts - and they are facts, however polemically expressed - about Ed's Marxist, English-hating dad. Just as Ed himself has come out as a socialist.

    And oh, btw, for all those banging on about the Mail supporting the Nazis. What's this? -

    http://www.annaraccoon.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/11/daily-mirror-give-the-blackshirts-a-helping-hand.jpg

    The Daily Mirror, running a think piece by its owner, advising Brits to join the Blackshirts.

    The Daily Mirror. lol.
    Ms Raccoon is a remarkable lady - I knew her a little - she lives in France now and is very protective of her anonimity.
  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 23,559
    tim said:

    Damian McBride's mate complains about dirty tricks in the press, ho hum he was happy enough to support them when it suited.

    The spat will simply reinforce everyone's prejudices and change little. DM haters will rant about the press and Miliband haters will say Red Ed. Something for all political anoraks.

    On the other hand I do wonder to what extent this will be the start of Miliband reaping what he sowed at Leveson. Will the other rags join in ?

    Not set Dacre has calculated this too well if the Leveson business is big motivation

    @itvnews: Nick Clegg backs Ed Miliband in Mail row
    http://t.co/iOcDgXsnGg
    Oh really tim, the New Lab boys just lapped it up to Murdoch and the press when it suited them. They stood back and egged on Andrew Mitchell getting sacked, said nothing when Osborne's wife was being lined up for smears, briefed journalists against their own colleagues. These are their rules they're only moaning when it's turned against them
  • tim said:

    The paper that supported the Nazis, Ed's choice of enemies hasn't done him too much harm so far.

    The Daily Mirror? Have they turned on Ed as well?

  • SlackbladderSlackbladder Posts: 9,704
    Plato said:

    Dearie me

    Iain @Iain_33
    Labour frontbencher Kevin Brennan attacking Dave for being "out of touch" for having home made bread

    I'm sure that no labour politician has ever, ever owned a bread maker, or ever watched the 'Great British Bake Off'.
  • FinancierFinancier Posts: 3,916
    Neil said:

    Financier said:

    When he has nationalised that, what next is on his agenda for nationalisation? Is he wanting to turn the clock back to the late 1940s? These are all valid questions.

    I bet you a million pounds the answer is no.
    Have you got a million pounds to put up front to support that bet?
  • A balanced report - such as the ones you profess to be so keen on when criticising coverage of Tories - would have noted Ed's explicit rejection of his father's beliefs, as well as his father's sadness at that rejection. It would also have noted Ralph's rejection of Stalinism and of violent revolution.

    Have you actually read the article?

    Though they were friends, he never agreed with his fellow Marxist Eric Hobsbawm over the latter's refusal to condemn Stalinism's 30 million dead, or the brutal Soviet invasion of Hungary in 1956,

    Of course it's not intended to be a 'balanced' account, any more than an article by George Monbiot or Polly Toynbee is. It's a polemic - this is the Mail, after all, the alter ego of the Guardian.
  • PolruanPolruan Posts: 2,083
    Neil said:

    Financier said:

    When he has nationalised that, what next is on his agenda for nationalisation? Is he wanting to turn the clock back to the late 1940s? These are all valid questions.

    I bet you a million pounds the answer is no.
    Not a bad bet... if you lost, presumably the million pounds would be confiscated in any case.
  • NeilNeil Posts: 7,983
    Financier said:

    Neil said:

    Financier said:

    When he has nationalised that, what next is on his agenda for nationalisation? Is he wanting to turn the clock back to the late 1940s? These are all valid questions.

    I bet you a million pounds the answer is no.
    Have you got a million pounds to put up front to support that bet?
    Oh, Financier, you get me every time.
  • OblitusSumMeOblitusSumMe Posts: 9,143
    Plato said:

    Dearie me

    Iain @Iain_33
    Labour frontbencher Kevin Brennan attacking Dave for being "out of touch" for having home made bread

    I'm a Socialist and I bake my own bread. Sometimes.
  • I like The Daily Mail, it's not too rough on the arse
  • NeilNeil Posts: 7,983
    Polruan said:

    Neil said:

    Financier said:

    When he has nationalised that, what next is on his agenda for nationalisation? Is he wanting to turn the clock back to the late 1940s? These are all valid questions.

    I bet you a million pounds the answer is no.
    Not a bad bet... if you lost, presumably the million pounds would be confiscated in any case.
    The only risk is that the stakes are too low for Financier to bother with.
  • glwglw Posts: 9,535
    Plato said:

    Dearie me

    Iain @Iain_33
    Labour frontbencher Kevin Brennan attacking Dave for being "out of touch" for having home made bread

    Baking makes you out of touch? Is there some kind of "stupid political attacks" competition taking place today?
  • Mick_PorkMick_Pork Posts: 6,530
    edited October 2013
    "and it has the biggest online presence. "

    The Mail's not behind a paywall. Yet.

    Rothermere is definitely looking at it though and he'll start with a 'freemium' trial period before going full paywall.
  • stodgestodge Posts: 12,741
    Morning all :)

    I suspect we have all got ssomething in our past or in our own associations that we'd rather wasn't in the public domain. Cameron took enormous flak for what he did or didn't do at University and now Ed Miliband is facing the same vilification which is a curious desire of the Mail and some other papers to denigrate those who aspire to political office.

    As to the other nonsense spouted by some on here about Labour "returning to Michael Foot 70s socialism", I'd have thought that one 1983 Labour Manifesto pledge would be heartily endorsed as it is to my knowledge the last time either of the two main parties committed to withdrawal from the EU (or EEC as it then was). I've not heard Ed Milinband offer to give up the nuclear deterrent or withdraw from NATO so it's clearly not a re-hash of 1983.

    What Miliband has done is cease genuflecting at the altar of business and it's no surprise to see those who think that some aspects of privatisation (the practice, not the theory) have not served the consumer well find themselves in agreement with him.
  • RichardNabaviRichardNabavi Posts: 3,413
    edited October 2013
    Looking at the wider picture, Mike is right that the Mail is not going to give up on these sorts of attacks. Lots of other papers will also now start attacking him much more than they have done up to now, from City AM to the Telegraph, the Sun and the Times, albeit more on policy grounds than the Mail's attacks.

    And so they should: Ed Miliband has, deliberately or accidentally, said some very worrying things. He can't have his cake and eat it. If he wants to portray himself as a moderate, why is he positioning himself on the far left? He quite clearly said a few days ago that he was 'bringing back socialism'. Fair enough, and certainly his speech at the Labour conference confirms that, so why on earth should he complain if the media believe him and accuse him of wanting to bring back socialism?
  • PlatoPlato Posts: 15,724
    edited October 2013
    SeanT said:

    If we can rise above the tedious fray, my guess is that if a paper has been around long enough, and considers itself national and important enough to take positions - then if you dig deep, you will find it has expressed any number of dubious opinions, in the past.

    There's probably some Times article in 1927 saying Mussolini ain't so bad.

    It's all pretty meaningless.

    Quite. I just find it amusing that what the Mail said in 193X is dredged up as proof of anything by desperate Lefties. The Mirror had a frontpage claiming UK troops were peeing literally on Iraqi POWs and that's just a mistake...
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 41,670
    Financier said:

    Neil said:

    Financier said:

    When he has nationalised that, what next is on his agenda for nationalisation? Is he wanting to turn the clock back to the late 1940s? These are all valid questions.

    I bet you a million pounds the answer is no.
    Have you got a million pounds to put up front to support that bet?
    Go on Neil call his bluff, most likely he has little more than a fiver to cover it in any case
  • FinancierFinancier Posts: 3,916
    Neil said:

    Polruan said:

    Neil said:

    Financier said:

    When he has nationalised that, what next is on his agenda for nationalisation? Is he wanting to turn the clock back to the late 1940s? These are all valid questions.

    I bet you a million pounds the answer is no.
    Not a bad bet... if you lost, presumably the million pounds would be confiscated in any case.
    The only risk is that the stakes are too low for Financier to bother with.
    Neil, presume you have not played poker with people who may get a bit upset when you are "called" and having a losing hand are unable to support your bets due to insufficient resources - cash. Best to stick with Tim's £50 at evens.

    Actually I agree with your thought, but am not sure how far along the Nationalisation route EdM would go, having got one under his belt - so-to-speak. If something works once it is very tempting to follow the same path and McLuskey would be right behind him.


  • PlatoPlato Posts: 15,724

    snip

    And so they should: Ed Miliband has, deliberately or accidentally, said some very worrying things. He can't have his cake and eat it. If he wants to portray himself as a moderate, why is he positioning himself on the far left? He quite clearly said a few days ago that he was 'bringing back socialism'. Fair enough, and certainly his speech at the Labour conference confirms that, so why on earth should he complain if the media believe him and accuse him of wanting to bring back socialism?

    I'm rarely scared by a political speech - but EdM did it for me. And judging by comments from previous Tony Tories in the Times = I'm not alone. Whatever EdM was trying to do re strategy - he's alienated us if we weren't already running the other way.

    Ben Brogan summed it up well here

    "For nearly 20 years, up until that speech in Brighton on Tuesday, Labour had held no fear for the Tories. True, a generation of Conservatives grew to dread the pain of being thrashed in a general election by Tony Blair’s New Labour. The habit of defeat forced many to their knees and left them in a permanent cringe of embarrassment at being a conservative. But for most Tories, let’s admit it, life under Labour came to be no better or worse than if they had been in charge. Compared to the days of mass nationalisations, 98 per cent marginal tax rates, mounds of rubbish in the streets and an imminent sell-out to the Soviets, the prospect of a Labour government ceased to be frightening after 1994. When, in the course of the 1997 campaign, John Major put a pair of demon eyes on Mr Blair’s image, no one believed it.

    And once they weren’t frightened of him, they ceased to worry about losing either. Instead, conservatives could indulge their internal ideological arguments and – in the case of some MPs – enjoy the easy life of Opposition, with its inconsequence and decent possibilities for outside earnings. Labour plucked the goose so gently that the well-off never noticed enough to worry. I remember one Tory frontbencher assuring me before the 2005 election that the problem with victory was that it would mean hard work. Lucky for him, Michael Howard didn’t come close.

    Mr Miliband’s lunge to the Left should change all that... > http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/benedictbrogan/100238827/cameron-is-betting-that-britain-is-still-a-country-of-grown-ups/
  • OblitusSumMeOblitusSumMe Posts: 9,143
    stodge said:

    Morning all :)

    I suspect we have all got ssomething in our past or in our own associations that we'd rather wasn't in the public domain.

    I baked a Pumpkin Pie for Thanksgiving one year, but don't tell my reflexively anti-American lefty mates...
  • Well done to Boris for referencing Emperor Diocletian
  • SimonStClareSimonStClare Posts: 7,976
    Whether you believe the Daily Mail is wrong or right in its attack, it is merely aping other newspapers that have for a while now believed it fair game to attack politicians via there kith and kin. And not just the Media of course, as McBride ably demonstrated last week and regularly demonstrated by a few on PB.Com

    However noble Miliband thought he was being in his reply, he should have just bitten his lip and let the story wither away. It was a dumb move to respond to the Mails goading, with the obvious result.

    “The question is whether this will damage EdM or will help him” – Hard to say, but it would have been better not to have been in this position in the first place.
  • I wonder if Daily Mail journalists and editors have an annual meeting on April 20th in a secret cellar to remember and celebrate the one they gave so much support to .

    Brown?

  • Peter_the_PunterPeter_the_Punter Posts: 13,224
    edited October 2013
    Heard the today programme earlier and the interview with Cameron.

    They gave him a pretty tough time and he didn't always handle it too well, but his response to the Miliband/Mail question at the end was first class. He calmly responded that if anybody publicly attacked his dead dad, his natural instinct would be to spring sharply to his defence. He then called for the exercise of better judgement in the public discussion of such matters and left it at that.

    He's at his best when his shows his human and humane side.
  • taffystaffys Posts: 9,753
    I seem to recall reading that Time Magazine chose Hitler as their 'man of the year' in 1938.

    The Mail's article is pretty nonsensical rubbish, but does Miliband replying reveal a bit of a thin skin?
  • anotherDaveanotherDave Posts: 6,746
    Mick_Pork said:

    "and it has the biggest online presence. "

    The Mail's not behind a paywall. Yet.

    Rothermere is definitely looking at it though and he'll start with a 'freemium' trial period before going full paywall.

    The Mail is profitable. Their online model is working. The Guardian is more likely to try a paywall.

  • Mick_PorkMick_Pork Posts: 6,530
    *sigh*

    Who gives a shit what Dacre is foaming at the mouth about from day to day?

    Dacre panicked and tried the absurd Nazi smearing on Clegg himself at the height of the election campaign and it didn't make a blind bit of difference, save that everyone laughed at the Mail for a while. Cameron is only PM right now because Clegg and the lib dems allow it so a tiny bit of a spin failure from planet Dacre and that was when circulations were higher.
This discussion has been closed.