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politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » My 270/1 shot for the White House indicates that he might run

SystemSystem Posts: 11,018
edited July 2018 in General

imagepoliticalbetting.com » Blog Archive » My 270/1 shot for the White House indicates that he might run

Back in early April I reported that I’d backed Governor John Hickenlooper for the presidency at odds of 270/1 on Betfair.

Read the full story here


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    Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 60,983
    I haven't backed him at quite those odds, but think I got some at 81 or so. Just a few pounds, but still splendid if he gets it.
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    MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 50,114
    How will The Donald disaprage him? Loopy Looper?
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    rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 53,960

    I haven't backed him at quite those odds, but think I got some at 81 or so. Just a few pounds, but still splendid if he gets it.

    He also made his money the honest way: beer.

    Popular governor of a swing state. Good backstory.

    Against that, he's perhaps a little moderate for the Democrats this year. And he's hardly done any pussy grabbing as far as I'm aware, which counts against him.
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    Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 60,983
    Mr. 1000, they're making a new Bard's Tale. Comes out later this year (PC first then consoles). That game appreciated beer.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SrEFWv8aSQ8
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    rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 53,960

    How will The Donald disaprage him? Loopy Looper?

    He's a kind of laconic guy, a sort of polar opposite to Trump. I have no doubt that Trump will find someway to tag him as a crazy Lefty or somesuch. I think that, unlike with Hillary, where there was barely concealed fury below the surface, Hickenlooper will just give a slight smile and ignore it.

    Having seen the Democrats use the Primaries to elect a bunch of left wing nutjobs, I can't help wonder if Hickenlooper will struggle get traction with the Democratic base. But, I think he'd be a very good foil to Donald Trump.
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    rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 53,960

    Mr. 1000, they're making a new Bard's Tale. Comes out later this year (PC first then consoles). That game appreciated beer.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SrEFWv8aSQ8

    Ohhh... I last played a Bard's Tale about 25 years ago.

    Amazingly, the original Bard's Tale was the last good game made by Electronic Arts.
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    Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 60,983
    Mr. 1000, trying to remember if it was PS2 or on the original Playstation. Probably PS2. Never played any other version.

    To veer approximately on-topic, I wonder if there'll be a very large field for the blues next time, as there was the reds last time. That does seem helpful for outsiders.
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    ThomasNasheThomasNashe Posts: 4,971
    LOL! Obesity epidemic, being swamped by immigrants. 'No deal' Brexit has it all sorted.
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    AnneJGPAnneJGP Posts: 2,869
    @AlastairMeeks My condolences on your loss. A very moving tribute.

    Good evening, everyone.
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    rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 58,206
    edited July 2018
    The race can't come soon enough for me. The world needs rid of Trump before we are dealing with utter chaos and war on multiple fronts.
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    Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 60,983
    Good evening, Miss JGP.

    Mr. Borough, he could win again.
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    stodgestodge Posts: 12,850
    Late afternoon all :)

    Given OGH's record on this one should take note though as a trading option in itself it looks a pretty good price.

    If I were the Democratic Party, I would be looking at a candidate who could get independent and swing voters on side - the pro-Trump hardcore aren't going to shift so don't waste time and effort on them - go for the Independents and the swing voters.

    I suppose it's always possible the GOP will split and try to run its own candidate against Trump although I suppose the analogy with 1912 has Trump more Roosevelt than Taft but no analogy stands up to close inspection. Perhaps a better analogy would be the Dixiecrats - would Trumpians stand against a GOP candidate?

    The point at which parties become sensible is when they decide they want a leader the electorate will want not a leader the party wants. Both Blair and Cameron came to lead their parties simply because they could reach beyond the core.

    The Democrats need to consider an individual who can reach beyond the base but doesn't even have to reach too far - pick up Michigan, Florida, Wisconsin and Pennsylvania and it's all over.
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    rkrkrkrkrkrk Posts: 7,908
    Have also followed OGH in on Hickenlooper. Green for a grand for next President.
    It feels like happy families when the pb.com community are all backing similar longshots.
    I imagine the mood will be very cheery if Jeremy Hunt or Rory Stewart are the next Con leader.
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    Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 60,983
    Mr. rkrkrk, mine won't be if it's Stewart. I want a Hunt/Mordaunt final two.
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    rkrkrkrkrkrk Posts: 7,908
    FPT:

    I'm torn as to whether hard Brexit makes rejoining more or less likely. It's clear the short-term disruption will be more, which favours rejoining. But the distance of travel to rejoining will be considerable, and the EU is not an organization that swiftly admits members. It would need a consensus across UK political parties given the timescales involved.

    A softer Brexit means it's not as far to go, but on the other hand if it's soft enough - then what's the point in opening up a divisive debate? Norway has been happy enough with its lack of influence and semi-attached status for quite some time.
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    murali_smurali_s Posts: 3,040
    edited July 2018
    LOL!

    To be honest, should only be given to the certified morons that voted Leave!
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    rkrkrkrkrkrk Posts: 7,908

    Mr. rkrkrk, mine won't be if it's Stewart. I want a Hunt/Mordaunt final two.

    You've had plenty of opportunities and tips to go for Stewart. You'd only have yourself to blame! Mordaunt a minor win for me, but would be glad at least to get that horrendous looking red figure next to JRM out of the picture...
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    Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 60,983
    Pish, Mr. rkrkrk! Pish!
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    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,989
    Hickenlooper may run but he has little chance of getting the nomination with Democratic primary voters looking to pick a left liberal populist to take on Trump like Sanders or Warren after Hillary's defeat in 2016 on a centrist platform.

    Though if it does end up Trump v Sanders/Warren I could see Hickenlooper on a centrist third party ticket with Kasich (who could again challenge Trump in the GOP primaries) focused on moderates and independents. That is where his real value lies, not for the Democratic nomination
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    rkrkrkrkrkrk Posts: 7,908
    I'd add - I think Liz Truss at 139/1 to be next Tory leader might be value.
    She speaks to a certain fringe of the party, and might feel she has the votes to run.
    At those odds she only needs to have a go in the next contest to be well worth backing.
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    rpjsrpjs Posts: 3,787
    HYUFD said:

    Hickenlooper may run but he has little chance of getting the nomination with Democratic primary voters looking to pick a left liberal populist to take on Trump like Sanders or Warren after Hillary's defeat in 2016 on a centrist platform.

    Though if it does end up Trump v Sanders/Warren I could see Hickenlooper on a centrist third party ticket with Kasich (who could again challenge Trump in the GOP primaries) focused on moderates and independents. That is where his real value lies, not for the Democratic nomination

    I doubt there’d be a third-party ticket. Third parties never win nationally in the US. All they can do is nobble one or other of the two main parties.
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    Sean_FSean_F Posts: 35,836
    Ration books will be a luxury, only distributed to Conservative Party members.
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    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,989

    Mr. rkrkrk, mine won't be if it's Stewart. I want a Hunt/Mordaunt final two.

    Boris or Javid are highly likely to succeed May as Tory leader in my view but no harm having a small punt on a long shot
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    IanB2IanB2 Posts: 47,274
    rkrkrk said:

    I'd add - I think Liz Truss at 139/1 to be next Tory leader might be value.
    She speaks to a certain fringe of the party, and might feel she has the votes to run.
    At those odds she only needs to have a go in the next contest to be well worth backing.

    It's about time the SDP had a go?
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    ThomasNasheThomasNashe Posts: 4,971
    rkrkrk said:

    I'd add - I think Liz Truss at 139/1 to be next Tory leader might be value.
    She speaks to a certain fringe of the party, and might feel she has the votes to run.
    At those odds she only needs to have a go in the next contest to be well worth backing.

    Lunatic, I take it. She's almost as certifiable as JRM. I suppose that's a reflection of the state of the Tory Party now. It doesn't have just one lunatic fringe anymore. Conversely, the isolation of genuinely sensible figures like Ken Clarke also speaks volumes.
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    rkrkrkrkrkrk Posts: 7,908
    rcs1000 said:

    How will The Donald disaprage him? Loopy Looper?

    He's a kind of laconic guy, a sort of polar opposite to Trump. I have no doubt that Trump will find someway to tag him as a crazy Lefty or somesuch. I think that, unlike with Hillary, where there was barely concealed fury below the surface, Hickenlooper will just give a slight smile and ignore it.

    Having seen the Democrats use the Primaries to elect a bunch of left wing nutjobs, I can't help wonder if Hickenlooper will struggle get traction with the Democratic base. But, I think he'd be a very good foil to Donald Trump.
    I suspect Trump would go down the - he's not a very successful businessman, tiny business I could buy without even thinking etc. angle.

    I think the field for left candidates may be more crowded, whereas Bernie had a pretty much free run last time and still didn't make it.

    I suspect we will see more centrist candidates like Hickenlooper come out very strongly on issues like healthcare, perhaps with policies like Medicare for all, to pick up votes from the left.
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    rpjsrpjs Posts: 3,787
    edited July 2018
    rkrkrk said:

    FPT:

    I'm torn as to whether hard Brexit makes rejoining more or less likely. It's clear the short-term disruption will be more, which favours rejoining. But the distance of travel to rejoining will be considerable, and the EU is not an organization that swiftly admits members. It would need a consensus across UK political parties given the timescales involved.

    A softer Brexit means it's not as far to go, but on the other hand if it's soft enough - then what's the point in opening up a divisive debate? Norway has been happy enough with its lack of influence and semi-attached status for quite some time.

    The time it takes to admit new members is constrained by how fast they can enact the EU acquis into local law. An immediately rejoining UK would have all of that as we have transposed it all into UK law. The only two parts that would need to be added are Schengen and the Euro. The Euro requires ERM membership, which is not mandatory (Sweden’s method of staying out indefinitely) and Schengen requires the other Schengen states to approve the state of the applicant’s border and internal security (which is why Bulgaria, Croatia, Cyprus and Romania are still not in Schengen). It would be easy for the UK to fudge staying out of both in practice.

    And I think the EU would be delighted to have us rejoin after a car crash Brexit, pour encourager les autres.
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    ralphmalphralphmalph Posts: 2,201
    rkrkrk said:

    FPT:

    I'm torn as to whether hard Brexit makes rejoining more or less likely. It's clear the short-term disruption will be more, which favours rejoining. But the distance of travel to rejoining will be considerable, and the EU is not an organization that swiftly admits members. It would need a consensus across UK political parties given the timescales involved.

    A softer Brexit means it's not as far to go, but on the other hand if it's soft enough - then what's the point in opening up a divisive debate? Norway has been happy enough with its lack of influence and semi-attached status for quite some time.

    If you believe hard brexit will cause economic damage then it will also cause economic damage to other countries in the EU. The IMF say in order Ireland, Hol, Bel, France, Spain. Those countries are not going to even talk to the UK about re-joining until a new generation of politicians and civil servants have been installed.
    If we leave with hard brexit there is no chance of us rejoining for 15 years at least. This why the ERG are happy.
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    ThomasNasheThomasNashe Posts: 4,971

    rkrkrk said:

    FPT:

    I'm torn as to whether hard Brexit makes rejoining more or less likely. It's clear the short-term disruption will be more, which favours rejoining. But the distance of travel to rejoining will be considerable, and the EU is not an organization that swiftly admits members. It would need a consensus across UK political parties given the timescales involved.

    A softer Brexit means it's not as far to go, but on the other hand if it's soft enough - then what's the point in opening up a divisive debate? Norway has been happy enough with its lack of influence and semi-attached status for quite some time.

    If you believe hard brexit will cause economic damage then it will also cause economic damage to other countries in the EU. The IMF say in order Ireland, Hol, Bel, France, Spain. Those countries are not going to even talk to the UK about re-joining until a new generation of politicians and civil servants have been installed.
    If we leave with hard brexit there is no chance of us rejoining for 15 years at least. This why the ERG are happy.
    They will catch a cold (quite a nasty one in Ireland's case). Meanwhile, we will get pneumonia.
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    rkrkrkrkrkrk Posts: 7,908

    rkrkrk said:

    I'd add - I think Liz Truss at 139/1 to be next Tory leader might be value.
    She speaks to a certain fringe of the party, and might feel she has the votes to run.
    At those odds she only needs to have a go in the next contest to be well worth backing.

    Lunatic, I take it. She's almost as certifiable as JRM. I suppose that's a reflection of the state of the Tory Party now. It doesn't have just one lunatic fringe anymore. Conversely, the isolation of genuinely sensible figures like Ken Clarke also speaks volumes.
    There's a section of the Conservative party that just wants to cut taxes and shrink the state as their first, second and third priorities. Liz Truss could feel she needs to enter the race to represent this wing.
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    justin124justin124 Posts: 11,527
    Alastair,
    I am very sorry to hear of that sad news. Your eulogy was truly inspiring and I am sure does him proud.Having lost both my parents, I can empathise with the deep void that bereavement brings to us. As a Spiritualist - and practising Medium - I have a different view of death to most people - and see it as a stage of development with the physical existence being replaced by a higher spiritual life in another dimension. That knowledge,however, does not take away the pain of losing a person's physical prescence.
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    Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 60,983
    Betting Post

    Germany: pre-race ramble:
    http://enormo-haddock.blogspot.com/2018/07/germany-pre-race-2018.html

    Backed Raikkonen each way for the win at 10. Mercedes have recently started a bit iffily. There have also been a few front end collisions. Raikkonen could benefit from either.

    Tempted by a few other things too, though.
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    rkrkrkrkrkrk Posts: 7,908
    rpjs said:

    rkrkrk said:

    FPT:

    I'm torn as to whether hard Brexit makes rejoining more or less likely. It's clear the short-term disruption will be more, which favours rejoining. But the distance of travel to rejoining will be considerable, and the EU is not an organization that swiftly admits members. It would need a consensus across UK political parties given the timescales involved.

    A softer Brexit means it's not as far to go, but on the other hand if it's soft enough - then what's the point in opening up a divisive debate? Norway has been happy enough with its lack of influence and semi-attached status for quite some time.

    The time it takes to admit new members is constrained by how fast they can enact the EU acquis into local law. An immediately rejoining UK would have all of that as we have transposed it all into UK law. The only two parts that would need to be added are Schengen and the Euro. The Euro requires ERM membership, which is not mandatory (Sweden’s method of staying out indefinitely) and Schengen requires the other Schengen states to approve the state of the applicant’s border and internal security (which is why Bulgaria, Croatia, Cyprus and Romania are still not in Schengen). It would be easy for the UK to fudge staying out of both in practice.

    And I think the EU would be delighted to have us rejoin after a car crash Brexit, pour encourager les autres.
    If we hard Brexit, we might use that newly won regulatory freedom to diverge.
    Reversing that divergence would presumably be more problematic than if we had had a soft Brexit and had kept things very much aligned.

    To be honest though I'm just speculating, I don't really have a clear sense of how easy rejoining would be. I think it would be wise if People's Vote group or similar groups started looking into this - at least as a backup option.
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    BromptonautBromptonaut Posts: 1,113
    edited July 2018
    It’s notable that the swivel-eyed Brexiteer loons on here don’t use the Remoaner jibe anymore.

    It can only be because they’re the ones doing all the moaning these days.

    Lemoaners seems to fit the bill.
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    John_MJohn_M Posts: 7,503
    edited July 2018

    rkrkrk said:

    FPT:

    I'm torn as to whether hard Brexit makes rejoining more or less likely. It's clear the short-term disruption will be more, which favours rejoining. But the distance of travel to rejoining will be considerable, and the EU is not an organization that swiftly admits members. It would need a consensus across UK political parties given the timescales involved.

    A softer Brexit means it's not as far to go, but on the other hand if it's soft enough - then what's the point in opening up a divisive debate? Norway has been happy enough with its lack of influence and semi-attached status for quite some time.

    If you believe hard brexit will cause economic damage then it will also cause economic damage to other countries in the EU. The IMF say in order Ireland, Hol, Bel, France, Spain. Those countries are not going to even talk to the UK about re-joining until a new generation of politicians and civil servants have been installed.
    If we leave with hard brexit there is no chance of us rejoining for 15 years at least. This why the ERG are happy.
    They will catch a cold (quite a nasty one in Ireland's case). Meanwhile, we will get pneumonia.
    The latest IMF report has the shortfall in growth under WTO in both UK & Ireland at 4% by 2030 , with Benelux & Malta next in line. If we get some kind of FTA, that's halved. If we end up as Norway the economic impacts are (in their words) 'negligible'.
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    another_richardanother_richard Posts: 25,076

    It’s notable that the swivel-eyed Brexiteer loons on here don’t use the Remoaner jibe anymore.

    It can only be because they’re the ones doing all the moaning these days.

    Lemoaners seems to fit the bill.

    I think this FPT was the best bit of swivel-eyed loon moaning recently:
    PClipp said:


    Perhaps those who survive the civil unrest, the breakdown of society, the collapse of the economy (short term, for the next 50 years) and who manage to get all their wealth abroad into safe off-shore havens? The rest of us, not.

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    rural_voterrural_voter Posts: 2,038

    rkrkrk said:

    I'd add - I think Liz Truss at 139/1 to be next Tory leader might be value.
    She speaks to a certain fringe of the party, and might feel she has the votes to run.
    At those odds she only needs to have a go in the next contest to be well worth backing.

    Lunatic, I take it. She's almost as certifiable as JRM. I suppose that's a reflection of the state of the Tory Party now. It doesn't have just one lunatic fringe anymore. Conversely, the isolation of genuinely sensible figures like Ken Clarke also speaks volumes.
    The Tory left is more marginal than it's been in my lifetime; I'm technically a pensioner. The move to the right seems to have carried on long after Thatcher left office.

    Truss appears insane but as you say it now seems a necessary qualification. Hammond has been sidelined, if not disowned, clearly for being too level-headed and competent. Stewart is probably doing a good job on prisons but never it seems says anything unrelated to his department, possibly because it might sound too sensible.
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    another_richardanother_richard Posts: 25,076
    edited July 2018
    John_M said:

    rkrkrk said:

    FPT:

    I'm torn as to whether hard Brexit makes rejoining more or less likely. It's clear the short-term disruption will be more, which favours rejoining. But the distance of travel to rejoining will be considerable, and the EU is not an organization that swiftly admits members. It would need a consensus across UK political parties given the timescales involved.

    A softer Brexit means it's not as far to go, but on the other hand if it's soft enough - then what's the point in opening up a divisive debate? Norway has been happy enough with its lack of influence and semi-attached status for quite some time.

    If you believe hard brexit will cause economic damage then it will also cause economic damage to other countries in the EU. The IMF say in order Ireland, Hol, Bel, France, Spain. Those countries are not going to even talk to the UK about re-joining until a new generation of politicians and civil servants have been installed.
    If we leave with hard brexit there is no chance of us rejoining for 15 years at least. This why the ERG are happy.
    They will catch a cold (quite a nasty one in Ireland's case). Meanwhile, we will get pneumonia.
    The latest IMF report has the shortfall in growth under WTO in both UK & Ireland at 4% by 2030 , with Benelux & Malta next in line. If we get some kind of FTA, that's halved. If we end up as Norway the economic impacts are (in their words) 'negligible'.
    By comparison the Treasury predicted in May 2016 that GDP would now be either 0.4% higher or 2.0% lower than it was then

    https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/524967/hm_treasury_analysis_the_immediate_economic_impact_of_leaving_the_eu_web.pdf see page 50

    In reality it will be 3.2% higher:

    https://www.ons.gov.uk/economy/grossdomesticproductgdp/timeseries/ihyq/qna
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    another_richardanother_richard Posts: 25,076
    Today's Tesco Strawberry score is a ten:

    Aberdeenshire
    Fife
    Nottinghamshire
    Staffordshire
    Norfolk
    Herefordshire
    Norfolk
    Surrey
    West Sussex
    Kent

    The highest score for about three weeks.
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    Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453

    Today's Tesco Strawberry score is a ten:

    Aberdeenshire
    Fife
    Nottinghamshire
    Staffordshire
    Norfolk
    Herefordshire
    Norfolk
    Surrey
    West Sussex
    Kent

    The highest score for about three weeks.

    From the Times today

    A shortage of fruit pickers and political dithering has led to an “appalling” amount of Scottish produce being left to rot, MPs have been told.

    Politicians travelled to Scottish fruit farms yesterday to investigate a looming crisis that could worsen if immigration rules are tightened after Brexit.

    MPs also visited West Jordanstone Farm in Alyth, where the Marshall family has already had to leave crops to rot due to a lack of staff to pick them.


    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/scotland/fruit-rots-on-farms-as-eu-workers-stay-away-and-mps-dither-wcqxwg5wl
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    rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 53,960
    It's funny how Brexit changes traditional loyalties. In the old days, Sinn Fein and the IRA were communists.

    Now they're lining up with big business and the EU.
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    CD13CD13 Posts: 6,351
    I see some of our Euro-loons have managed to end up retarded on the grief cycle following the referendum. You stayed too long on the denial phase, languished awhile on the anger phase, wallowed in the depression cycle but jibbed at the bargaining stage, Instead, you've returned to the anger phase.

    Try to snap out of it because it doesn't do much for your mental health. We're beginning to feel sorry for you now!
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    ralphmalphralphmalph Posts: 2,201
    Seeing as we seem to be back to the EU.

    https://www.pressreader.com/ireland/irish-independent/20180721/281509341971841

    Varadkar's bessie mates are soon to be subject to one of his rants. Merkel key ally says "Border to be hardest in Europe." "Not Germany's problem, Ireland can sort it out." Germany is not paying. Then the French waded in helpfully as well.

    So what is the analysis. Pressure being put on Ireland to support a new EU proposal or sage advice from your friends because no deal is looking the best bet at the moment?
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    rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 53,960

    John_M said:

    rkrkrk said:

    FPT:

    I'm torn as to whether hard Brexit makes rejoining more or less likely. It's clear the short-term disruption will be more, which favours rejoining. But the distance of travel to rejoining will be considerable, and the EU is not an organization that swiftly admits members. It would need a consensus across UK political parties given the timescales involved.

    A softer Brexit means it's not as far to go, but on the other hand if it's soft enough - then what's the point in opening up a divisive debate? Norway has been happy enough with its lack of influence and semi-attached status for quite some time.

    If you believe hard brexit will cause economic damage then it will also cause economic damage to other countries in the EU. The IMF say in order Ireland, Hol, Bel, France, Spain. Those countries are not going to even talk to the UK about re-joining until a new generation of politicians and civil servants have been installed.
    If we leave with hard brexit there is no chance of us rejoining for 15 years at least. This why the ERG are happy.
    They will catch a cold (quite a nasty one in Ireland's case). Meanwhile, we will get pneumonia.
    The latest IMF report has the shortfall in growth under WTO in both UK & Ireland at 4% by 2030 , with Benelux & Malta next in line. If we get some kind of FTA, that's halved. If we end up as Norway the economic impacts are (in their words) 'negligible'.
    By comparison the Treasury predicted in May 2016 that GDP would now be either 0.4% higher or 2.0% lower than it was then

    https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/524967/hm_treasury_analysis_the_immediate_economic_impact_of_leaving_the_eu_web.pdf see page 50

    In reality it will be 3.2% higher:

    https://www.ons.gov.uk/economy/grossdomesticproductgdp/timeseries/ihyq/qna
    To be fair, they got the delta between the UK and the Eurozone broadly right. What's happened is that - somewhat surprisingly - the Eurozone has quietly accelerated. Total imports were up 2.8% in the first half of 2018, with imports from the UK up 3.4%.
  • Options
    rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 53,960
    rkrkrk said:

    rpjs said:

    rkrkrk said:

    FPT:

    I'm torn as to whether hard Brexit makes rejoining more or less likely. It's clear the short-term disruption will be more, which favours rejoining. But the distance of travel to rejoining will be considerable, and the EU is not an organization that swiftly admits members. It would need a consensus across UK political parties given the timescales involved.

    A softer Brexit means it's not as far to go, but on the other hand if it's soft enough - then what's the point in opening up a divisive debate? Norway has been happy enough with its lack of influence and semi-attached status for quite some time.

    The time it takes to admit new members is constrained by how fast they can enact the EU acquis into local law. An immediately rejoining UK would have all of that as we have transposed it all into UK law. The only two parts that would need to be added are Schengen and the Euro. The Euro requires ERM membership, which is not mandatory (Sweden’s method of staying out indefinitely) and Schengen requires the other Schengen states to approve the state of the applicant’s border and internal security (which is why Bulgaria, Croatia, Cyprus and Romania are still not in Schengen). It would be easy for the UK to fudge staying out of both in practice.

    And I think the EU would be delighted to have us rejoin after a car crash Brexit, pour encourager les autres.
    If we hard Brexit, we might use that newly won regulatory freedom to diverge.
    Reversing that divergence would presumably be more problematic than if we had had a soft Brexit and had kept things very much aligned.

    To be honest though I'm just speculating, I don't really have a clear sense of how easy rejoining would be. I think it would be wise if People's Vote group or similar groups started looking into this - at least as a backup option.
    I can see divergence in terms of workplace regulation, but in terms of product specifications, I just don't buy it. Take electronics, pretty much every piece of consumer electronics in the world is CE, FCC, and UL certified. Are we really expecting to create our own standard that's different from those? The same is true of autos, and most industrial goods. Irrespective of whether there is a "shared rulebook" or not, we will effectively track EU regulation, because virtually nothing is manufactured just for local consumption.
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    another_richardanother_richard Posts: 25,076
    Scott_P said:

    Today's Tesco Strawberry score is a ten:

    Aberdeenshire
    Fife
    Nottinghamshire
    Staffordshire
    Norfolk
    Herefordshire
    Norfolk
    Surrey
    West Sussex
    Kent

    The highest score for about three weeks.

    From the Times today

    A shortage of fruit pickers and political dithering has led to an “appalling” amount of Scottish produce being left to rot, MPs have been told.

    Politicians travelled to Scottish fruit farms yesterday to investigate a looming crisis that could worsen if immigration rules are tightened after Brexit.

    MPs also visited West Jordanstone Farm in Alyth, where the Marshall family has already had to leave crops to rot due to a lack of staff to pick them.


    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/scotland/fruit-rots-on-farms-as-eu-workers-stay-away-and-mps-dither-wcqxwg5wl
    So why don't they recruit more workers ?
  • Options
    rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 53,960

    Scott_P said:

    Today's Tesco Strawberry score is a ten:

    Aberdeenshire
    Fife
    Nottinghamshire
    Staffordshire
    Norfolk
    Herefordshire
    Norfolk
    Surrey
    West Sussex
    Kent

    The highest score for about three weeks.

    From the Times today

    A shortage of fruit pickers and political dithering has led to an “appalling” amount of Scottish produce being left to rot, MPs have been told.

    Politicians travelled to Scottish fruit farms yesterday to investigate a looming crisis that could worsen if immigration rules are tightened after Brexit.

    MPs also visited West Jordanstone Farm in Alyth, where the Marshall family has already had to leave crops to rot due to a lack of staff to pick them.


    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/scotland/fruit-rots-on-farms-as-eu-workers-stay-away-and-mps-dither-wcqxwg5wl
    So why don't they recruit more workers ?
    I want to know why the politicians weren't helping.
  • Options
    ydoethurydoethur Posts: 67,191
    Checks PB threads.

    Sees 'Lemoaner' and 'Euro-loon' are being flung round.

    Sighs sadly and wonders what the mods are doing, given all their awful threats in the past over such terms.

    Yawns loudly.

    Goes back to the cricket.
  • Options
    GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 20,847
    rcs1000 said:

    John_M said:

    rkrkrk said:

    FPT:

    I'm torn as to whether hard Brexit makes rejoining more or less likely. It's clear the short-term disruption will be more, which favours rejoining. But the distance of travel to rejoining will be considerable, and the EU is not an organization that swiftly admits members. It would need a consensus across UK political parties given the timescales involved.

    A softer Brexit means it's not as far to go, but on the other hand if it's soft enough - then what's the point in opening up a divisive debate? Norway has been happy enough with its lack of influence and semi-attached status for quite some time.

    If you believe hard brexit will cause economic damage then it will also cause economic damage to other countries in the EU. The IMF say in order Ireland, Hol, Bel, France, Spain. Those countries are not going to even talk to the UK about re-joining until a new generation of politicians and civil servants have been installed.
    If we leave with hard brexit there is no chance of us rejoining for 15 years at least. This why the ERG are happy.
    They will catch a cold (quite a nasty one in Ireland's case). Meanwhile, we will get pneumonia.
    The latest IMF report has the shortfall in growth under WTO in both UK & Ireland at 4% by 2030 , with Benelux & Malta next in line. If we get some kind of FTA, that's halved. If we end up as Norway the economic impacts are (in their words) 'negligible'.
    By comparison the Treasury predicted in May 2016 that GDP would now be either 0.4% higher or 2.0% lower than it was then

    https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/524967/hm_treasury_analysis_the_immediate_economic_impact_of_leaving_the_eu_web.pdf see page 50

    In reality it will be 3.2% higher:

    https://www.ons.gov.uk/economy/grossdomesticproductgdp/timeseries/ihyq/qna
    To be fair, they got the delta between the UK and the Eurozone broadly right. What's happened is that - somewhat surprisingly - the Eurozone has quietly accelerated. Total imports were up 2.8% in the first half of 2018, with imports from the UK up 3.4%.
    Facts are not welcome here! This is a Brexit town, for Brexit people.
  • Options
    another_richardanother_richard Posts: 25,076
    edited July 2018

    Scott_P said:

    Today's Tesco Strawberry score is a ten:

    Aberdeenshire
    Fife
    Nottinghamshire
    Staffordshire
    Norfolk
    Herefordshire
    Norfolk
    Surrey
    West Sussex
    Kent

    The highest score for about three weeks.

    From the Times today

    A shortage of fruit pickers and political dithering has led to an “appalling” amount of Scottish produce being left to rot, MPs have been told.

    Politicians travelled to Scottish fruit farms yesterday to investigate a looming crisis that could worsen if immigration rules are tightened after Brexit.

    MPs also visited West Jordanstone Farm in Alyth, where the Marshall family has already had to leave crops to rot due to a lack of staff to pick them.


    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/scotland/fruit-rots-on-farms-as-eu-workers-stay-away-and-mps-dither-wcqxwg5wl
    So why don't they recruit more workers ?
    And anyone who has ever picked their own strawberries, gone blackberrying, seen an apple tree or anything similar will know that vast amounts of fruit and veg are never picked because they are already rotten.

    Is 'no strawberry left behind' now some Scottish farming obsession ?
  • Options
    another_richardanother_richard Posts: 25,076

    rcs1000 said:

    John_M said:

    rkrkrk said:

    FPT:

    I'm torn as to whether hard Brexit makes rejoining more or less likely. It's clear the short-term disruption will be more, which favours rejoining. But the distance of travel to rejoining will be considerable, and the EU is not an organization that swiftly admits members. It would need a consensus across UK political parties given the timescales involved.

    A softer Brexit means it's not as far to go, but on the other hand if it's soft enough - then what's the point in opening up a divisive debate? Norway has been happy enough with its lack of influence and semi-attached status for quite some time.

    If you believe hard brexit will cause economic damage then it will also cause economic damage to other countries in the EU. The IMF say in order Ireland, Hol, Bel, France, Spain. Those countries are not going to even talk to the UK about re-joining until a new generation of politicians and civil servants have been installed.
    If we leave with hard brexit there is no chance of us rejoining for 15 years at least. This why the ERG are happy.
    They will catch a cold (quite a nasty one in Ireland's case). Meanwhile, we will get pneumonia.
    The latest IMF report has the shortfall in growth under WTO in both UK & Ireland at 4% by 2030 , with Benelux & Malta next in line. If we get some kind of FTA, that's halved. If we end up as Norway the economic impacts are (in their words) 'negligible'.
    By comparison the Treasury predicted in May 2016 that GDP would now be either 0.4% higher or 2.0% lower than it was then

    https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/524967/hm_treasury_analysis_the_immediate_economic_impact_of_leaving_the_eu_web.pdf see page 50

    In reality it will be 3.2% higher:

    https://www.ons.gov.uk/economy/grossdomesticproductgdp/timeseries/ihyq/qna
    To be fair, they got the delta between the UK and the Eurozone broadly right. What's happened is that - somewhat surprisingly - the Eurozone has quietly accelerated. Total imports were up 2.8% in the first half of 2018, with imports from the UK up 3.4%.
    Facts are not welcome here! This is a Brexit town, for Brexit people.
    The fact is that the UK economy has done far better than the Treasury said it would after a Leave vote.
  • Options
    GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 20,847
    edited July 2018

    rcs1000 said:

    John_M said:

    rkrkrk said:

    FPT:

    I'm torn as to whether hard Brexit makes rejoining more or less likely. It's clear the short-term disruption will be more, which favours rejoining. But the distance of travel to rejoining will be considerable, and the EU is not an organization that swiftly admits members. It would need a consensus across UK political parties given the timescales involved.

    A softer Brexit means it's not as far to go, but on the other hand if it's soft enough - then what's the point in opening up a divisive debate? Norway has been happy enough with its lack of influence and semi-attached status for quite some time.

    If you believe hard brexit will cause economic damage then it will also cause economic damage to other countries in the EU. The IMF say in order Ireland, Hol, Bel, France, Spain. Those countries are not going to even talk to the UK about re-joining until a new generation of politicians and civil servants have been installed.
    If we leave with hard brexit there is no chance of us rejoining for 15 years at least. This why the ERG are happy.
    They will catch a cold (quite a nasty one in Ireland's case). Meanwhile, we will get pneumonia.
    The latest IMF report has the shortfall in growth under WTO in both UK & Ireland at 4% by 2030 , with Benelux & Malta next in line. If we get some kind of FTA, that's halved. If we end up as Norway the economic impacts are (in their words) 'negligible'.

    https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/524967/hm_treasury_analysis_the_immediate_economic_impact_of_leaving_the_eu_web.pdf see page 50

    In reality it will be 3.2% higher:

    https://www.ons.gov.uk/economy/grossdomesticproductgdp/timeseries/ihyq/qna
    To be fair, they got the delta between the UK and the Eurozone broadly right. What's happened is that - somewhat surprisingly - the Eurozone has quietly accelerated. Total imports were up 2.8% in the first half of 2018, with imports from the UK up 3.4%.
    Facts are not welcome here! This is a Brexit town, for Brexit people.
    The fact is that the UK economy has done far better than the Treasury said it would after a Leave vote.
    Yes, I can imagine Tubbs saying that.

    In reality, growth is subdued because of Brexit.
    Even the headbangers admit growth is repressed, albeit some suspect a Treasury plot.

    We are last in Europe, having been prior to 2016 near first.

    You have to carry responsibility for that.
  • Options
    another_richardanother_richard Posts: 25,076

    rcs1000 said:

    John_M said:


    If you believe hard brexit will cause economic damage then it will also cause economic damage to other countries in the EU. The IMF say in order Ireland, Hol, Bel, France, Spain. Those countries are not going to even talk to the UK about re-joining until a new generation of politicians and civil servants have been installed.
    If we leave with hard brexit there is no chance of us rejoining for 15 years at least. This why the ERG are happy.

    They will catch a cold (quite a nasty one in Ireland's case). Meanwhile, we will get pneumonia.
    The latest IMF report has the shortfall in growth under WTO in both UK & Ireland at 4% by 2030 , with Benelux & Malta next in line. If we get some kind of FTA, that's halved. If we end up as Norway the economic impacts are (in their words) 'negligible'.

    https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/524967/hm_treasury_analysis_the_immediate_economic_impact_of_leaving_the_eu_web.pdf see page 50

    In reality it will be 3.2% higher:

    https://www.ons.gov.uk/economy/grossdomesticproductgdp/timeseries/ihyq/qna
    To be fair, they got the delta between the UK and the Eurozone broadly right. What's happened is that - somewhat surprisingly - the Eurozone has quietly accelerated. Total imports were up 2.8% in the first half of 2018, with imports from the UK up 3.4%.
    Facts are not welcome here! This is a Brexit town, for Brexit people.
    The fact is that the UK economy has done far better than the Treasury said it would after a Leave vote.
    Yes, I can imagine Tubbs saying that.

    In reality, growth is subdued because of Brexit.
    Even the headbangers admit growth is repressed, albeit some suspect a Treasury plot.

    We are last in Europe, having been prior to 2016 near first.

    You have to carry responsibility for that.
    I'm quite happy for growth in consumption and imports and house prices to be subdued.

    Rebalancing the economy into something sustainable is far more important than an extra 0.1% on nominal GDP.

    Or do you think that the UK could continue to have a £100bn annual current account deficit on a permanent basis ?
  • Options
    RobDRobD Posts: 58,962
    edited July 2018



    Yes, I can imagine Tubbs saying that.

    In reality, growth is subdued because of Brexit.
    Even the headbangers admit growth is repressed, albeit some suspect a Treasury plot.

    We are last in Europe, having been prior to 2016 near first.

    You have to carry responsibility for that.

    Subdued growth is quite a way away from 'immediate and profound economic shock'.
  • Options
    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,989
    rkrkrk said:

    rcs1000 said:

    How will The Donald disaprage him? Loopy Looper?

    He's a kind of laconic guy, a sort of polar opposite to Trump. I have no doubt that Trump will find someway to tag him as a crazy Lefty or somesuch. I think that, unlike with Hillary, where there was barely concealed fury below the surface, Hickenlooper will just give a slight smile and ignore it.

    Having seen the Democrats use the Primaries to elect a bunch of left wing nutjobs, I can't help wonder if Hickenlooper will struggle get traction with the Democratic base. But, I think he'd be a very good foil to Donald Trump.
    I suspect Trump would go down the - he's not a very successful businessman, tiny business I could buy without even thinking etc. angle.

    I think the field for left candidates may be more crowded, whereas Bernie had a pretty much free run last time and still didn't make it.

    I suspect we will see more centrist candidates like Hickenlooper come out very strongly on issues like healthcare, perhaps with policies like Medicare for all, to pick up votes from the left.
    Sanders came from nowhere to almost beat the most overwhelming favourite in Democratic history Hillary Clinton. With a few more votes in Iowa next time he would have done that.

    Warren and Sanders combined already comfortably top the Democratic primary polls even if Biden is nominally ahead
  • Options
    RobDRobD Posts: 58,962
    ydoethur said:

    Checks PB threads.

    Sees 'Lemoaner' and 'Euro-loon' are being flung round.

    Sighs sadly and wonders what the mods are doing, given all their awful threats in the past over such terms.

    Yawns loudly.

    Goes back to the cricket.

    :o

    You've clearly forgotten the first rule of PB Moderation.
  • Options
    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,989

    rkrkrk said:

    I'd add - I think Liz Truss at 139/1 to be next Tory leader might be value.
    She speaks to a certain fringe of the party, and might feel she has the votes to run.
    At those odds she only needs to have a go in the next contest to be well worth backing.

    Lunatic, I take it. She's almost as certifiable as JRM. I suppose that's a reflection of the state of the Tory Party now. It doesn't have just one lunatic fringe anymore. Conversely, the isolation of genuinely sensible figures like Ken Clarke also speaks volumes.
    This when the Labour Party is led by a hard Left socialist with a Maoist as Shadow Chancellor and Diane Abbott as Shadow Home Secretary?
  • Options
    GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 20,847
    RobD said:



    Yes, I can imagine Tubbs saying that.

    In reality, growth is subdued because of Brexit.
    Even the headbangers admit growth is repressed, albeit some suspect a Treasury plot.

    We are last in Europe, having been prior to 2016 near first.

    You have to carry responsibility for that.

    Subdued growth is quite a way away from 'immediate and profound economic shock'.
    Subdued growth + fall in pound + more QE + fall in credit rating.

    Sure, it’s not apocalypse now, but it’s not the nirvana the masturbatory PB Brexiters think either.

    Even Brexit economist loon Peter “shut down the North” Minford admits Brexit economy has not necessarily proceeded according to our advantage.
  • Options
    GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 20,847

    rcs1000 said:

    John_M said:


    If you believe hard brexit will cause economic damage then it will also cause economic damage to other countries in the EU. The IMF say in order Ireland, Hol, Bel, France, Spain. Those countries are not going to even talk to the UK about re-joining until a new generation of politicians and civil servants have been installed.
    If we leave with hard brexit there is no chance of us rejoining for 15 years at least. This why the ERG are happy.

    They will catch a cold (quite a nasty one in Ireland's case). Meanwhile, we will get pneumonia.
    The latest IMF report has the shortfall in growth under WTO in both UK & Ireland at 4% by 2030 , with Benelux & Malta next in line. If we get some kind of FTA, that's halved. If we end up as Norway the economic impacts are (in their words) 'negligible'.

    https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/524967/hm_treasury_analysis_the_immediate_economic_impact_of_leaving_the_eu_web.pdf see page 50

    In reality it will be 3.2% higher:

    https://www.ons.gov.uk/economy/grossdomesticproductgdp/timeseries/ihyq/qna
    To be fair, they got the delta between the UK and the Eurozone broadly right. What's happened is that - somewhat surprisingly - the Eurozone has quietly accelerated. Total imports were up 2.8% in the first half of 2018, with imports from the UK up 3.4%.
    Facts are not welcome here! This is a Brexit town, for Brexit people.
    The fact is that the UK economy has done far better than the Treasury said it would after a Leave vote.
    Yes, I can imagine Tubbs saying that.

    In reality, growth is subdued because of Brexit.
    Even the headbangers admit growth is repressed, albeit some suspect a Treasury plot.

    We are last in Europe, having been prior to 2016 near first.

    You have to carry responsibility for that.
    I'm quite happy for growth in consumption and imports and house prices to be subdued.

    Rebalancing the economy into something sustainable is far more important than an extra 0.1% on nominal GDP.

    Or do you think that the UK could continue to have a £100bn annual current account deficit on a permanent basis ?
    Straw man bollocks alert.
    Stick to counting strawberries, unless Tesco have banned you already for being some kind of pest.
  • Options
    another_richardanother_richard Posts: 25,076

    rcs1000 said:

    John_M said:


    If you believe hard brexit will cause economic damage then it will also cause economic damage to other countries in the EU. The IMF say in order Ireland, Hol, Bel, France, Spain. Those countries are not going to even talk to the UK about re-joining until a new generation of politicians and civil servants have been installed.
    If we leave with hard brexit there is no chance of us rejoining for 15 years at least. This why the ERG are happy.

    They will catch a cold (quite a nasty one in Ireland's case). Meanwhile, we will get pneumonia.
    The latest IMF report has the shortfall in growth under WTO in both UK & Ireland at 4% by 2030 , with Benelux & Malta next in line. If we get some kind of FTA, that's halved. If we end up as Norway the economic impacts are (in their words) 'negligible'.

    https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/524967/hm_treasury_analysis_the_immediate_economic_impact_of_leaving_the_eu_web.pdf see page 50

    In reality it will be 3.2% higher:

    https://www.ons.gov.uk/economy/grossdomesticproductgdp/timeseries/ihyq/qna
    To be fair, they got the delta between the UK and the Eurozone broadly right. What's happened is that - somewhat surprisingly - the Eurozone has quietly accelerated. Total imports were up 2.8% in the first half of 2018, with imports from the UK up 3.4%.
    Facts are not welcome here! This is a Brexit town, for Brexit people.
    The fact is that the UK economy has done far better than the Treasury said it would after a Leave vote.
    Yes, I can imagine Tubbs saying that.

    In reality, growth is subdued because of Brexit.
    Even the headbangers admit growth is repressed, albeit some suspect a Treasury plot.

    We are last in Europe, having been prior to 2016 near first.

    You have to carry responsibility for that.
    I'm quite happy for growth in consumption and imports and house prices to be subdued.

    Rebalancing the economy into something sustainable is far more important than an extra 0.1% on nominal GDP.

    Or do you think that the UK could continue to have a £100bn annual current account deficit on a permanent basis ?
    Straw man bollocks alert.
    Stick to counting strawberries, unless Tesco have banned you already for being some kind of pest.
    Facts are not welcome here! This is a Remainer town, for Remainer people.

    :wink:
  • Options
    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,989
    edited July 2018
    rpjs said:

    rkrkrk said:

    FPT:

    I'm torn as to whether hard Brexit makes rejoining more or less likely. It's clear the short-term disruption will be more, which favours rejoining. But the distance of travel to rejoining will be considerable, and the EU is not an organization that swiftly admits members. It would need a consensus across UK political parties given the timescales involved.

    A softer Brexit means it's not as far to go, but on the other hand if it's soft enough - then what's the point in opening up a divisive debate? Norway has been happy enough with its lack of influence and semi-attached status for quite some time.

    The time it takes to admit new members is constrained by how fast they can enact the EU acquis into local law. An immediately rejoining UK would have all of that as we have transposed it all into UK law. The only two parts that would need to be added are Schengen and the Euro. The Euro requires ERM membership, which is not mandatory (Sweden’s method of staying out indefinitely) and Schengen requires the other Schengen states to approve the state of the applicant’s border and internal security (which is why Bulgaria, Croatia, Cyprus and Romania are still not in Schengen). It would be easy for the UK to fudge staying out of both in practice.

    And I think the EU would be delighted to have us rejoin after a car crash Brexit, pour encourager les autres.
    Most likely we would join the single market once immigration has been brought down, I cannot see us supporting rejoining the full EU again or the EU being willing to put up with our demands for opt outs and vetoes which soon enough would continue exactly as before
  • Options
    RobDRobD Posts: 58,962
    edited July 2018

    RobD said:



    Yes, I can imagine Tubbs saying that.

    In reality, growth is subdued because of Brexit.
    Even the headbangers admit growth is repressed, albeit some suspect a Treasury plot.

    We are last in Europe, having been prior to 2016 near first.

    You have to carry responsibility for that.

    Subdued growth is quite a way away from 'immediate and profound economic shock'.
    Subdued growth + fall in pound + more QE + fall in credit rating.

    Sure, it’s not apocalypse now, but it’s not the nirvana the masturbatory PB Brexiters think either.

    Even Brexit economist loon Peter “shut down the North” Minford admits Brexit economy has not necessarily proceeded according to our advantage.
    Nor is it the doom predicted by the Treasury.
  • Options
    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,989
    rpjs said:

    HYUFD said:

    Hickenlooper may run but he has little chance of getting the nomination with Democratic primary voters looking to pick a left liberal populist to take on Trump like Sanders or Warren after Hillary's defeat in 2016 on a centrist platform.

    Though if it does end up Trump v Sanders/Warren I could see Hickenlooper on a centrist third party ticket with Kasich (who could again challenge Trump in the GOP primaries) focused on moderates and independents. That is where his real value lies, not for the Democratic nomination

    I doubt there’d be a third-party ticket. Third parties never win nationally in the US. All they can do is nobble one or other of the two main parties.
    A Trump v Sanders ticket would be the most polarised since Nixon v McGovern or Johnson v Goldwater, in fact even more so as Nixon and Johnson at least made some nods to the centrist establishment unlike Trump or Sanders. If ever there was a condition for a centrist candidate it would be that.

    Don't forget either Perot got 19% as a third party candidate in 1992
  • Options
    GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 20,847
    RobD said:

    RobD said:



    Yes, I can imagine Tubbs saying that.

    In reality, growth is subdued because of Brexit.
    Even the headbangers admit growth is repressed, albeit some suspect a Treasury plot.

    We are last in Europe, having been prior to 2016 near first.

    You have to carry responsibility for that.

    Subdued growth is quite a way away from 'immediate and profound economic shock'.
    Subdued growth + fall in pound + more QE + fall in credit rating.

    Sure, it’s not apocalypse now, but it’s not the nirvana the masturbatory PB Brexiters think either.

    Even Brexit economist loon Peter “shut down the North” Minford admits Brexit economy has not necessarily proceeded according to our advantage.
    Nor is it the doom predicted by the Treasury.
    Read my post again. Doom has been mitigated and to some extent postponed.
  • Options
    FoxyFoxy Posts: 44,599
    edited July 2018
    I too am tidily green on Hickenlooper. The weird name factor made me do it. Also Governors tend to do well as candidates.

    I am also on Kasich as a potential primary challenger to Trump, and also Evan McMullin, who was quite successful as 3rd party candidate in Utah, but also may Primary Trump. Both have hinted at running. McMullins twitter is worth following, he has a CIA background and really loathes Trump.
  • Options
    another_richardanother_richard Posts: 25,076
    Can anyone guess which region of the UK has the highest unemployment rate ?

    https://www.ons.gov.uk/employmentandlabourmarket/peopleinwork/employmentandemployeetypes/bulletins/regionallabourmarket/july2018#summary-of-latest-regional-labour-market-statistics

    So why when London housing is such a scarce and expensive resource is taxpayers money being used to pay people to stay there to do nothing when people who would add value in finance, tech, culture etc cannot afford to live there ?
  • Options
    GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 20,847

    rcs1000 said:

    John_M said:


    If you believe hard brexit will cause economic damage then it will also cause economic damage to other countries in the EU. The IMF say in order Ireland, Hol, Bel, France, Spain. Those countries are not going to even talk to the UK about re-joining until a new generation of politicians and civil servants have been installed.
    If we leave with hard brexit there is no chance of us rejoining for 15 years at least. This why the ERG are happy.

    They will catch a cold (quite a nasty one in Ireland's case). Meanwhile, we will get pneumonia.
    The latest IMF report has the shortfall in growth under WTO in both UK & Ireland at 4% by 2030 , with Benelux & Malta next in line. If we get some kind of FTA, that's halved. If we end up as Norway the economic impacts are (in their words) 'negligible'.

    https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/524967/hm_treasury_analysis_the_immediate_economic_impact_of_leaving_the_eu_web.pdf see page 50

    In reality it will be 3.2% higher:

    https://www.ons.gov.uk/economy/grossdomesticproductgdp/timeseries/ihyq/qna
    To be fair, they got the delta between the UK and the Eurozone broadly right. What's happened is that - somewhat surprisingly - the Eurozone has quietly accelerated. Total imports were up 2.8% in the first half of 2018, with imports from the UK up 3.4%.
    Facts are not welcome here! This is a Brexit town, for Brexit people.
    The fact is that the UK economy has done far better than the Treasury said it would after a Leave vote.
    Yes, I can imagine Tubbs saying that.

    In reality, growth is subdued because of Brexit.
    Even the headbangers admit growth is repressed, albeit some suspect a Treasury plot.

    We are last in Europe, having been prior to 2016 near first.

    You have to carry responsibility for that.
    I'm quite happy for growth in consumption and imports and house
    Straw man bollocks alert.
    Stick to counting strawberries, unless Tesco have banned you already for being some kind of pest.
    Facts are not welcome here! This is a Remainer town, for Remainer people.

    :wink:
    You didn’t present any facts. Sorry.
    Does anyone actually doubt that Tubbs et al would have voted Brexit?
  • Options
    PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 75,923
    How did we pick fruit before mass EU immigration ?
  • Options
    Sean_FSean_F Posts: 35,836
    rcs1000 said:

    It's funny how Brexit changes traditional loyalties. In the old days, Sinn Fein and the IRA were communists.

    Now they're lining up with big business and the EU.

    And they were very anti-EU till recently.

    As ever, my enemy's enemy is my friend.
  • Options
    FoxyFoxy Posts: 44,599
    Pulpstar said:

    How did we pick fruit before mass EU immigration ?

    We grew far less of it.

    The expansion of the British soft fruit industry is a fairly recent phenomenon, and includes a lot more polytunnel produce to extend the season.
  • Options
    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,989

    Can anyone guess which region of the UK has the highest unemployment rate ?

    https://www.ons.gov.uk/employmentandlabourmarket/peopleinwork/employmentandemployeetypes/bulletins/regionallabourmarket/july2018#summary-of-latest-regional-labour-market-statistics

    So why when London housing is such a scarce and expensive resource is taxpayers money being used to pay people to stay there to do nothing when people who would add value in finance, tech, culture etc cannot afford to live there ?

    I am sure people in finance and tech could afford to live there, the average salary in the City and for the likes of Google, Apple and Facebook is close to £100 000 a year.

    People in culture and other areas of the economy maybe not
  • Options
    FenmanFenman Posts: 1,047

    RobD said:



    Yes, I can imagine Tubbs saying that.

    In reality, growth is subdued because of Brexit.
    Even the headbangers admit growth is repressed, albeit some suspect a Treasury plot.

    We are last in Europe, having been prior to 2016 near first.

    You have to carry responsibility for that.

    Subdued growth is quite a way away from 'immediate and profound economic shock'.
    Subdued growth + fall in pound + more QE + fall in credit rating.

    Sure, it’s not apocalypse now, but it’s not the nirvana the masturbatory PB Brexiters think either.

    Even Brexit economist loon Peter “shut down the North” Minford admits Brexit economy has not necessarily proceeded according to our advantage.
    Not too worried about a hard brexit so long as the Germans send us curry wurst in the food parcels
  • Options
    CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,203

    Seeing as we seem to be back to the EU.

    https://www.pressreader.com/ireland/irish-independent/20180721/281509341971841

    Varadkar's bessie mates are soon to be subject to one of his rants. Merkel key ally says "Border to be hardest in Europe." "Not Germany's problem, Ireland can sort it out." Germany is not paying. Then the French waded in helpfully as well.

    So what is the analysis. Pressure being put on Ireland to support a new EU proposal or sage advice from your friends because no deal is looking the best bet at the moment?

    Reads to me as if they’re pointing out the realities: a hard border means that Ireland has the responsibilities to maintain the SM’s integrity. They don’t appear to have Ireland’s back.

    But note they also say that Britain will be in a less favourable position than Russia vis a vis trade with the EU.

    Now this may all be legally correct. And it may very largely be the result of Britain’s inept and arrogant handling of Brexit.

    But the EU really ought to ask itself whether it makes sense to humiliate a former member, the world’s 5th (for now) largest economy, member of the Security Council etc. Humiliating countries, however much they may be at fault, does not usually end well. Nor does it reflect well on the EU. And while they may not care now, they may find that this could lead to unforeseen and unpleasant consequences in future.

    Britain is not going to disappear. Just as we would be well advised to adopt a more grown up approach to our relationship with the EU, so would the EU be well advised to do the same vis-a-vi Britain.
  • Options
    AlistairAlistair Posts: 23,670
    If I'm the Dems I'm looking for a white middle aged man as my Presidential nominee.

    Someone so boring they make John Kerry look lie a crazy maverick.

    I think general sexism had a serious effect on Hilary's chances - a couple of voting day vox pops had a serious impact on me with a female voter saying there is no way a woman should be president as they are too emotional. If Hilary Clinton is considered 'emotional' then, well, I don't know.
  • Options
    John_MJohn_M Posts: 7,503
    edited July 2018
    Pulpstar said:

    How did we pick fruit before mass EU immigration ?

    We had SAWS or a variant of it going back to when Adam was a lad.

    Strangely, given a choice, Johnny Foreigner doesn't seem to want to come and do menial work for minimum wage while being charged for accommodation to boot.
  • Options
    another_richardanother_richard Posts: 25,076
    Pulpstar said:

    How did we pick fruit before mass EU immigration ?

    Was there a lot less fruit being produced ?

    The number of agricultural workers has massively increased during the last 15 years according to the ONS.
  • Options
    Sean_FSean_F Posts: 35,836
    John_M said:

    Pulpstar said:

    How did we pick fruit before mass EU immigration ?

    We had SAWS or a variant of it. Strangely, given a choice, Johnny Foreigner doesn't seem to want to come and do menial for minimum wage while being charged for accommodation to boot.
    Nail hit on head. Jonny Foreigner can earn better money than that.
  • Options
    ralphmalphralphmalph Posts: 2,201
    Cyclefree said:

    Seeing as we seem to be back to the EU.

    https://www.pressreader.com/ireland/irish-independent/20180721/281509341971841

    Varadkar's bessie mates are soon to be subject to one of his rants. Merkel key ally says "Border to be hardest in Europe." "Not Germany's problem, Ireland can sort it out." Germany is not paying. Then the French waded in helpfully as well.

    So what is the analysis. Pressure being put on Ireland to support a new EU proposal or sage advice from your friends because no deal is looking the best bet at the moment?

    Reads to me as if they’re pointing out the realities: a hard border means that Ireland has the responsibilities to maintain the SM’s integrity. They don’t appear to have Ireland’s back.

    But note they also say that Britain will be in a less favourable position than Russia vis a vis trade with the EU.

    Now this may all be legally correct. And it may very largely be the result of Britain’s inept and arrogant handling of Brexit.

    But the EU really ought to ask itself whether it makes sense to humiliate a former member, the world’s 5th (for now) largest economy, member of the Security Council etc. Humiliating countries, however much they may be at fault, does not usually end well. Nor does it reflect well on the EU. And while they may not care now, they may find that this could lead to unforeseen and unpleasant consequences in future.

    Britain is not going to disappear. Just as we would be well advised to adopt a more grown up approach to our relationship with the EU, so would the EU be well advised to do the same vis-a-vi Britain.
    My first thought was that the EU was putting pressure on Ireland to moderate their position.
    To Mr Varadkar hard border means no tariffs or customs at all including electronic manifests, his position could only be satisfied by the UK staying in the EU completely. EEA+CU does not satisfy. The EU are in possession of a report that the high tech border is feasible over time. So I read it as pressure being applied so that no physical infrastructure at the border, but electronic customs docs and points of checking well away from the border should be acceptable. i.e not the hardest border in Ireland.
  • Options
    surbysurby Posts: 1,227
    Cyclefree said:

    Seeing as we seem to be back to the EU.

    https://www.pressreader.com/ireland/irish-independent/20180721/281509341971841

    Varadkar's bessie mates are soon to be subject to one of his rants. Merkel key ally says "Border to be hardest in Europe." "Not Germany's problem, Ireland can sort it out." Germany is not paying. Then the French waded in helpfully as well.

    So what is the analysis. Pressure being put on Ireland to support a new EU proposal or sage advice from your friends because no deal is looking the best bet at the moment?

    Reads to me as if they’re pointing out the realities: a hard border means that Ireland has the responsibilities to maintain the SM’s integrity. They don’t appear to have Ireland’s back.

    But note they also say that Britain will be in a less favourable position than Russia vis a vis trade with the EU.

    Now this may all be legally correct. And it may very largely be the result of Britain’s inept and arrogant handling of Brexit.

    But the EU really ought to ask itself whether it makes sense to humiliate a former member, the world’s 5th (for now) largest economy, member of the Security Council etc. Humiliating countries, however much they may be at fault, does not usually end well. Nor does it reflect well on the EU. And while they may not care now, they may find that this could lead to unforeseen and unpleasant consequences in future.

    Britain is not going to disappear. Just as we would be well advised to adopt a more grown up approach to our relationship with the EU, so would the EU be well advised to do the same vis-a-vi Britain.
    Right from the word go we have taken a very adversarial attitude. Using phrases like, "the EU is trying to punish us". This was just after Art.50 was triggered.

    The only logical sense coming out of this is: we are leaving and it is their duty to make it easy . Oh, by the way, can we cherry pick what we want even if that breaks the four freedoms because - wait a minute - we are so ******* important.
  • Options
    surbysurby Posts: 1,227
    Fenman said:

    RobD said:



    Yes, I can imagine Tubbs saying that.

    In reality, growth is subdued because of Brexit.
    Even the headbangers admit growth is repressed, albeit some suspect a Treasury plot.

    We are last in Europe, having been prior to 2016 near first.

    You have to carry responsibility for that.

    Subdued growth is quite a way away from 'immediate and profound economic shock'.
    Subdued growth + fall in pound + more QE + fall in credit rating.

    Sure, it’s not apocalypse now, but it’s not the nirvana the masturbatory PB Brexiters think either.

    Even Brexit economist loon Peter “shut down the North” Minford admits Brexit economy has not necessarily proceeded according to our advantage.
    Not too worried about a hard brexit so long as the Germans send us curry wurst in the food parcels
    Lets get it straight - It is a TORY BREXIT. Thye made the bed, they should lie on it.
  • Options
    another_richardanother_richard Posts: 25,076
    John_M said:

    Pulpstar said:

    How did we pick fruit before mass EU immigration ?

    We had SAWS or a variant of it going back to when Adam was a lad.

    Strangely, given a choice, Johnny Foreigner doesn't seem to want to come and do menial work for minimum wage while being charged for accommodation to boot.
    We're constantly told that the fruit pickers are skilled workers yet any suggestion that they be paid more than minimum wage gets ignored.

    By comparison the semi-skilled production workers at my employer get paid several pounds per hour above minimum wage for what seems to be rather easier work.

    If my employer tried to pay production workers at minimum wage there would be 100% vacancies and 0% output.

    I wonder if he'd get stories in the media and visits from politicians.
  • Options
    CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,203
    surby said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Seeing as we seem to be back to the EU.

    https://www.pressreader.com/ireland/irish-independent/20180721/281509341971841

    Varadkar's bessie mates are soon to be subject to one of his rants. Merkel key ally says "Border to be hardest in Europe." "Not Germany's problem, Ireland can sort it out." Germany is not paying. Then the French waded in helpfully as well.

    So what is the analysis. Pressure being put on Ireland to support a new EU proposal or sage advice from your friends because no deal is looking the best bet at the moment?

    Reads to me as if they’re pointing out the realities: a hard border means that Ireland has the responsibilities to maintain the SM’s integrity. They don’t appear to have Ireland’s back.

    But note they also say that Britain will be in a less favourable position than Russia vis a vis trade with the EU.

    Now this may all be legally correct. And it may very largely be the result of Britain’s inept and arrogant handling of Brexit.

    But the EU really ought to ask itself whether it makes sense to humiliate a former member, the world’s 5th (for now) largest economy, member of the Security Council etc. Humiliating countries, however much they may be at fault, does not usually end well. Nor does it reflect well on the EU. And while they may not care now, they may find that this could lead to unforeseen and unpleasant consequences in future.

    Britain is not going to disappear. Just as we would be well advised to adopt a more grown up approach to our relationship with the EU, so would the EU be well advised to do the same vis-a-vi Britain.
    Right from the word go we have taken a very adversarial attitude. Using phrases like, "the EU is trying to punish us". This was just after Art.50 was triggered.

    The only logical sense coming out of this is: we are leaving and it is their duty to make it easy . Oh, by the way, can we cherry pick what we want even if that breaks the four freedoms because - wait a minute - we are so ******* important.
    I agree we have been inept and arrogant. But they do have a duty to consider the future relationship under Article 50.

    My point is not whether their attitude is right or understandable. It may be both. But whether it is wise.

  • Options
    ralphmalphralphmalph Posts: 2,201

    Pulpstar said:

    How did we pick fruit before mass EU immigration ?

    Was there a lot less fruit being produced ?

    The number of agricultural workers has massively increased during the last 15 years according to the ONS.
    One reason is the increase in the growing season. Strawbs (your fav) used to have a 6 week season, now it is 9 months. Thanet Earth and Waitrose salad farms now harvest 12 months of the year.
    There has been a move from temporary labour to full time. People used to move farms dependent on what was in season, now they want the jobs that are 12 months of the year.
  • Options
    rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 53,960
    Cyclefree said:

    surby said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Seeing as we seem to be back to the EU.

    https://www.pressreader.com/ireland/irish-independent/20180721/281509341971841

    Varadkar's bessie mates are soon to be subject to one of his rants. Merkel key ally says "Border to be hardest in Europe." "Not Germany's problem, Ireland can sort it out." Germany is not paying. Then the French waded in helpfully as well.

    So what is the analysis. Pressure being put on Ireland to support a new EU proposal or sage advice from your friends because no deal is looking the best bet at the moment?

    Reads to me as if they’re pointing out the realities: a hard border means that Ireland has the responsibilities to maintain the SM’s integrity. They don’t appear to have Ireland’s back.

    But note they also say that Britain will be in a less favourable position than Russia vis a vis trade with the EU.

    Now this may all be legally correct. And it may very largely be the result of Britain’s inept and arrogant handling of Brexit.

    But the EU really ought to ask itself whether it makes sense to humiliate a former member, the world’s 5th (for now) largest economy, member of the Security Council etc. Humiliating countries, however much they may be at fault, does not usually end well. Nor does it reflect well on the EU. And while they may not care now, they may find that this could lead to unforeseen and unpleasant consequences in future.

    Britain is not going to disappear. Just as we would be well advised to adopt a more grown up approach to our relationship with the EU, so would the EU be well advised to do the same vis-a-vi Britain.
    Right from the word go we have taken a very adversarial attitude. Using phrases like, "the EU is trying to punish us". This was just after Art.50 was triggered.

    The only logical sense coming out of this is: we are leaving and it is their duty to make it easy . Oh, by the way, can we cherry pick what we want even if that breaks the four freedoms because - wait a minute - we are so ******* important.
    I agree we have been inept and arrogant. But they do have a duty to consider the future relationship under Article 50.

    My point is not whether their attitude is right or understandable. It may be both. But whether it is wise.

    Anybody who doesn't realise that we are both to blame for this mess is a fanatic.
  • Options
    another_richardanother_richard Posts: 25,076

    Pulpstar said:

    How did we pick fruit before mass EU immigration ?

    Was there a lot less fruit being produced ?

    The number of agricultural workers has massively increased during the last 15 years according to the ONS.
    One reason is the increase in the growing season. Strawbs (your fav) used to have a 6 week season, now it is 9 months. Thanet Earth and Waitrose salad farms now harvest 12 months of the year.
    There has been a move from temporary labour to full time. People used to move farms dependent on what was in season, now they want the jobs that are 12 months of the year.
    Which helps explain why productivity in the agricultural sector has fallen.

    A cereal farmer will have high productivity but the new soft fruit peasantry less so.
  • Options
    JonathanJonathan Posts: 20,901
    rcs1000 said:

    Cyclefree said:

    surby said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Seeing as we seem to be back to the EU.

    https://www.pressreader.com/ireland/irish-independent/20180721/281509341971841

    Varadkar's bessie mates are soon to be subject to one of his rants. Merkel key ally says "Border to be hardest in Europe." "Not Germany's problem, Ireland can sort it out." Germany is not paying. Then the French waded in helpfully as well.

    So what is the analysis. Pressure being put on Ireland to support a new EU proposal or sage advice from your friends because no deal is looking the best bet at the moment?

    Reads to me as if they’re pointing out the realities: a hard border means that Ireland has the responsibilities to maintain the SM’s integrity. They don’t appear to have Ireland’s back.

    But note they also say that Britain will be in a less favourable position than Russia vis a vis trade with the EU.

    Now this may all be legally correct. And it may very largely be the result of Britain’s inept and arrogant handling of Brexit.

    But the EU really ought to ask itself whether it makes sense to humiliate a former member, the world’s 5th (for now) largest economy, member of the Security Council etc. Humiliating countries, however much they may be at fault, does not usually end well. Nor does it reflect well on the EU. And while they may not care now, they may find that this could lead to unforeseen and unpleasant consequences in future.

    Britain is not going to disappear. Just as we would be well advised to adopt a more grown up approach to our relationship with the EU, so would the EU be well advised to do the same vis-a-vi Britain.
    Right from the word go we have taken a very adversarial attitude. Using phrases like, "the EU is trying to punish us". This was just after Art.50 was triggered.

    The only logical sense coming out of this is: we are leaving and it is their duty to make it easy . Oh, by the way, can we cherry pick what we want even if that breaks the four freedoms because - wait a minute - we are so ******* important.
    I agree we have been inept and arrogant. But they do have a duty to consider the future relationship under Article 50.

    My point is not whether their attitude is right or understandable. It may be both. But whether it is wise.

    Anybody who doesn't realise that we are both to blame for this mess is a fanatic.
    The people who focus on blame are the fanatics. They need to make way for people who can dig us out of it.
  • Options
    another_richardanother_richard Posts: 25,076
    HYUFD said:

    Can anyone guess which region of the UK has the highest unemployment rate ?

    https://www.ons.gov.uk/employmentandlabourmarket/peopleinwork/employmentandemployeetypes/bulletins/regionallabourmarket/july2018#summary-of-latest-regional-labour-market-statistics

    So why when London housing is such a scarce and expensive resource is taxpayers money being used to pay people to stay there to do nothing when people who would add value in finance, tech, culture etc cannot afford to live there ?

    I am sure people in finance and tech could afford to live there, the average salary in the City and for the likes of Google, Apple and Facebook is close to £100 000 a year.

    People in culture and other areas of the economy maybe not
    I suspect there might be a few London finance and tech workers wondering where their £100k job is.
  • Options
    rkrkrkrkrkrk Posts: 7,908
    edited July 2018
    rcs1000 said:

    rkrkrk said:

    rpjs said:

    rkrkrk said:

    FPT:

    I'm torn as to whether hard Brexit makes rejoining more or less likely. It's clear the short-term disruption will be more, which favours rejoining. But the distance of travel to rejoining will be considerable, and the EU is not an organization that swiftly admits members. It would need a consensus across UK political parties given the timescales involved.

    A softer Brexit means it's not as far to go, but on the other hand if it's soft enough - then what's the point in opening up a divisive debate? Norway has been happy enough with its lack of influence and semi-attached status for quite some time.

    The time it takes to admit new members is constrained by how fast they can enact the EU acquis into local law. An immediately rejoining UK would have all of that as we have transposed it all into UK law. The only two parts that would need to be added are Schengen and the Euro. The Euro requires ERM membership, which is not mandatory (Sweden’s method of staying out indefinitely) and Schengen requires the other Schengen states to approve the state of the applicant’s border and internal security (which is why Bulgaria, Croatia, Cyprus and Romania are still not in Schengen). It would be easy for the UK to fudge staying out of both in practice.

    And I think the EU would be delighted to have us rejoin after a car crash Brexit, pour encourager les autres.
    If we hard Brexit, we might use that newly won regulatory freedom to diverge.
    Reversing that divergence would presumably be more problematic than if we had had a soft Brexit and had kept things very much aligned.

    To be honest though I'm just speculating, I don't really have a clear sense of how easy rejoining would be. I think it would be wise if People's Vote group or similar groups started looking into this - at least as a backup option.
    I can see divergence in terms of workplace regulation, but in terms of product specifications, I just don't buy it. Take electronics, pretty much every piece of consumer electronics in the world is CE, FCC, and UL certified. Are we really expecting to create our own standard that's different from those? The same is true of autos, and most industrial goods. Irrespective of whether there is a "shared rulebook" or not, we will effectively track EU regulation, because virtually nothing is manufactured just for local consumption.
    I expect changes on environmental regulation. In some areas we might raise standards, and then would have to lower them to get back to the EU? Boris will want to change his lorry standards doubtless. On say fisheries I could imagine it might be very problematic to rejoin the CFP, perhaps having overfished just before re entry. I would be happier if serious think tanks were considering this...
  • Options
    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,989
    edited July 2018
    surby said:

    Fenman said:

    RobD said:



    Yes, I can imagine Tubbs saying that.

    In reality, growth is subdued because of Brexit.
    Even the headbangers admit growth is repressed, albeit some suspect a Treasury plot.

    We are last in Europe, having been prior to 2016 near first.

    You have to carry responsibility for that.

    Subdued growth is quite a way away from 'immediate and profound economic shock'.
    Subdued growth + fall in pound + more QE + fall in credit rating.

    Sure, it’s not apocalypse now, but it’s not the nirvana the masturbatory PB Brexiters think either.

    Even Brexit economist loon Peter “shut down the North” Minford admits Brexit economy has not necessarily proceeded according to our advantage.
    Not too worried about a hard brexit so long as the Germans send us curry wurst in the food parcels
    Lets get it straight - It is a TORY BREXIT. Thye made the bed, they should lie on it.
    No. This is a Brexit of the British people. It was the British people who voted Leave when the Tory leader backed and campaigned for Remain and Corbyn did sod all for Remain in terms of campaigning. It is May who has put forward a Chequers Deal compromise to the EU at the cost of losing Tory Leavers to UKIP and putting Corbyn ahead in the polls. Indeed Corbyn's Brexit plan is virtually identical to May's.

    It is the LDs and the likes of Umunna and Soubry or on the other side UKIP and the likes of Boris, Mogg and Field who offer alternatives to the current Tory government's Brexit, Corbyn Labour absolutely does not in virtually any respect bar staying in 'a' customs union but not 'the' customs union
  • Options
    surbysurby Posts: 1,227
    HYUFD said:

    surby said:

    Fenman said:

    RobD said:



    Yes, I can imagine Tubbs saying that.

    In reality, growth is subdued because of Brexit.
    Even the headbangers admit growth is repressed, albeit some suspect a Treasury plot.

    We are last in Europe, having been prior to 2016 near first.

    You have to carry responsibility for that.

    Subdued growth is quite a way away from 'immediate and profound economic shock'.
    Subdued growth + fall in pound + more QE + fall in credit rating.

    Sure, it’s not apocalypse now, but it’s not the nirvana the masturbatory PB Brexiters think either.

    Even Brexit economist loon Peter “shut down the North” Minford admits Brexit economy has not necessarily proceeded according to our advantage.
    Not too worried about a hard brexit so long as the Germans send us curry wurst in the food parcels
    Lets get it straight - It is a TORY BREXIT. Thye made the bed, they should lie on it.
    No. This is a Brexit of the British people. It was the British people who voted Leave when the Tory leader backed and campaigned for Remain and Corbyn did sod all for Remain in terms of campaigning. It is May who has put forward a Chequers Deal compromise to the EU at the cost of losing Tory Leavers to UKIP and putting Corbyn ahead in the polls. Indeed Corbyn's Brexit plan is virtually identical to May's.

    It is the LDs and the likes of Umunna and Soubry or on the other side UKIP and the likes of Boris, Mogg and Field who offer alternatives to the current Tory government's Brexit, Corbyn Labour absolutely does not in virtually any respect bar staying in 'a' customs union but not 'the' customs union
    Frankly, Labour is following - for now - the great policy of Historical Inactivity. Perfect !
  • Options
    grabcocquegrabcocque Posts: 4,234
    edited July 2018
    HYUFD said:


    It is the LDs and the likes of Umunna and Soubry or on the other side UKIP and the likes of Boris, Mogg and Field who offer alternatives to the current Tory government's Brexit, Corbyn Labour absolutely does not in virtually any respect bar staying in 'a' customs union but not 'the' customs union

    What we're witnessing is the immovable object meeting the irresistible force.

    The immovable object is Politicians' desire to want to tell people what they want to hear.

    The irresistible force is the contradictory, irreconcilable and outright impossible instructions politicians believe the UK electorate has given them.

    Something is going to have to give, I wish I knew what.
  • Options
    JonathanJonathan Posts: 20,901
    HYUFD said:

    surby said:

    Fenman said:

    RobD said:



    Yes, I can imagine Tubbs saying that.

    In reality, growth is subdued because of Brexit.
    Even the headbangers admit growth is repressed, albeit some suspect a Treasury plot.

    We are last in Europe, having been prior to 2016 near first.

    You have to carry responsibility for that.

    Subdued growth is quite a way away from 'immediate and profound economic shock'.
    Subdued growth + fall in pound + more QE + fall in credit rating.

    Sure, it’s not apocalypse now, but it’s not the nirvana the masturbatory PB Brexiters think either.

    Even Brexit economist loon Peter “shut down the North” Minford admits Brexit economy has not necessarily proceeded according to our advantage.
    Not too worried about a hard brexit so long as the Germans send us curry wurst in the food parcels
    Lets get it straight - It is a TORY BREXIT. Thye made the bed, they should lie on it.
    No. This is a Brexit of the British people. It was the British people who voted Leave when the Tory leader backed and campaigned for Remain and Corbyn did sod all for Remain in terms of campaigning. It is May who has put forward a Chequers Deal compromise to the EU at the cost of losing Tory Leavers to UKIP and putting Corbyn ahead in the polls. Indeed Corbyn's Brexit plan is virtually identical to May's.

    It is the LDs and the likes of Umunna and Soubry or on the other side UKIP and the likes of Boris, Mogg and Field who offer alternatives to the current Tory government's Brexit, Corbyn Labour absolutely does not in virtually any respect bar staying in 'a' customs union but not 'the' customs union
    Nope, this version of Brexit is brought to us by the Conservatives. They would be the first to take any credit if it's going well. They also have to take responsibility when things are more tricky. The price of power.
  • Options
    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,989
    edited July 2018
    Alistair said:

    If I'm the Dems I'm looking for a white middle aged man as my Presidential nominee.

    Someone so boring they make John Kerry look lie a crazy maverick.

    I think general sexism had a serious effect on Hilary's chances - a couple of voting day vox pops had a serious impact on me with a female voter saying there is no way a woman should be president as they are too emotional. If Hilary Clinton is considered 'emotional' then, well, I don't know.

    Charisma beats boring and Trump beats boring. The Democrats will not win with another establishment corporate dull centrist like Hillary nor with a coastal identity obsessed elitist. They either need a charismatic moderate who can connect with the rustbelt like Biden or a charismatic left populist like Sanders who can do the same. A charismatic youngster like Joe Kennedy would also have a shot but this is likely an election too early for him.
  • Options
    OchEyeOchEye Posts: 1,469

    Scott_P said:

    Today's Tesco Strawberry score is a ten:

    Aberdeenshire
    Fife
    Nottinghamshire
    Staffordshire
    Norfolk
    Herefordshire
    Norfolk
    Surrey
    West Sussex
    Kent

    The highest score for about three weeks.

    From the Times today

    A shortage of fruit pickers and political dithering has led to an “appalling” amount of Scottish produce being left to rot, MPs have been told.

    Politicians travelled to Scottish fruit farms yesterday to investigate a looming crisis that could worsen if immigration rules are tightened after Brexit.

    MPs also visited West Jordanstone Farm in Alyth, where the Marshall family has already had to leave crops to rot due to a lack of staff to pick them.


    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/scotland/fruit-rots-on-farms-as-eu-workers-stay-away-and-mps-dither-wcqxwg5wl
    So why don't they recruit more workers ?
    Where from? Do you actually know the work involved? Do you know that most fruit farms pay a minimum of £9 an hour? Do you know that the maximum that the Fruit Farmers association says that they pay a maximum of £550/week (admittedly after several seasons experience of picking) and they still can't get enough people? A journalist tried it out recently, and got paid £9 for a days work and was told not to come back. And the farms are under contract to the supermarkets and they are told what the price will be for grade a fruit (nothing else is acceptable, and is returned) and the farms have to work out their costs on that basis.
  • Options
    Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826
    OchEye said:

    Scott_P said:

    Today's Tesco Strawberry score is a ten:

    Aberdeenshire
    Fife
    Nottinghamshire
    Staffordshire
    Norfolk
    Herefordshire
    Norfolk
    Surrey
    West Sussex
    Kent

    The highest score for about three weeks.

    From the Times today

    A shortage of fruit pickers and political dithering has led to an “appalling” amount of Scottish produce being left to rot, MPs have been told.

    Politicians travelled to Scottish fruit farms yesterday to investigate a looming crisis that could worsen if immigration rules are tightened after Brexit.

    MPs also visited West Jordanstone Farm in Alyth, where the Marshall family has already had to leave crops to rot due to a lack of staff to pick them.


    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/scotland/fruit-rots-on-farms-as-eu-workers-stay-away-and-mps-dither-wcqxwg5wl
    So why don't they recruit more workers ?
    Where from? Do you actually know the work involved? Do you know that most fruit farms pay a minimum of £9 an hour? Do you know that the maximum that the Fruit Farmers association says that they pay a maximum of £550/week (admittedly after several seasons experience of picking) and they still can't get enough people? A journalist tried it out recently, and got paid £9 for a days work and was told not to come back. And the farms are under contract to the supermarkets and they are told what the price will be for grade a fruit (nothing else is acceptable, and is returned) and the farms have to work out their costs on that basis.
    They paid someone £9 for a days work and they're wondering why they can't recruit?
    They're telling people who are willing to work not to come back and they're wondering why they can't recruit?

    Screw them then. Why should we care?
  • Options
    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,989
    surby said:

    HYUFD said:

    surby said:

    Fenman said:

    RobD said:



    Yes, I can imagine Tubbs saying that.

    In reality, growth is subdued because of Brexit.
    Even the headbangers admit growth is repressed, albeit some suspect a Treasury plot.

    We are last in Europe, having been prior to 2016 near first.

    You have to carry responsibility for that.

    Subdued growth is quite a way away from 'immediate and profound economic shock'.
    Subdued growth + fall in pound + more QE + fall in credit rating.

    Sure, it’s not apocalypse now, but it’s not the nirvana the masturbatory PB Brexiters think either.

    Even Brexit economist loon Peter “shut down the North” Minford admits Brexit economy has not necessarily proceeded according to our advantage.
    Not too worried about a hard brexit so long as the Germans send us curry wurst in the food parcels
    Lets get it straight - It is a TORY BREXIT. Thye made the bed, they should lie on it.
    No. This is a Brexit of the British people. It was the British people who voted Leave when the Tory leader backed and campaigned for Remain and Corbyn did sod all for Remain in terms of campaigning. It is May who has put forward a Chequers Deal compromise to the EU at the cost of losing Tory Leavers to UKIP and putting Corbyn ahead in the polls. Indeed Corbyn's Brexit plan is virtually identical to May's.

    It is the LDs and the likes of Umunna and Soubry or on the other side UKIP and the likes of Boris, Mogg and Field who offer alternatives to the current Tory government's Brexit, Corbyn Labour absolutely does not in virtually any respect bar staying in 'a' customs union but not 'the' customs union
    Frankly, Labour is following - for now - the great policy of Historical Inactivity. Perfect !
    Nope as the Tories will dump May in a year or two if she gets a transition but no FTA, earlier if not for Boris or Javid, then go for a harder Brexit to win back UKIP voters then back to 42% which beats Corbyn's 40%. Perfect
  • Options
    MattWMattW Posts: 18,505
    edited July 2018
    surby said:


    Right from the word go we have taken a very adversarial attitude. Using phrases like, "the EU is trying to punish us". This was just after Art.50 was triggered.

    Accurate statement, and that is arguably a key element of the EU mindset still. EU leaders said it was a political necessity for them.

    eg Francois Hollande, French President, Oct 2016, 6 months before Art. 50 was triggered:

    "“There must be a threat, there must be a risk, there must be a price, otherwise we will be in negotiations that will not end well and, inevitably, will have economic and human consequences,” the French president said."
    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/oct/07/uk-must-pay-price-for-brexit-says-francois-hollande

    .. pour encourager les autres:

    "Hollande said firmness was absolutely necessary otherwise “the principles of the European Union will be questioned” and “other countries or other parties will be minded to leave the European Union in order to have the supposed benefits and no downsides or rules”."

    Similar statements were made by other leaders.

    And the M Barnier included a demand to be able to punish unilaterally in the EU submission this spring.
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-43062112

    He had to withdraw it and apologise.

    (Hope I have my blockquotes correct).


  • Options
    Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826
    surby said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Seeing as we seem to be back to the EU.

    https://www.pressreader.com/ireland/irish-independent/20180721/281509341971841

    Varadkar's bessie mates are soon to be subject to one of his rants. Merkel key ally says "Border to be hardest in Europe." "Not Germany's problem, Ireland can sort it out." Germany is not paying. Then the French waded in helpfully as well.

    So what is the analysis. Pressure being put on Ireland to support a new EU proposal or sage advice from your friends because no deal is looking the best bet at the moment?

    Reads to me as if they’re pointing out the realities: a hard border means that Ireland has the responsibilities to maintain the SM’s integrity. They don’t appear to have Ireland’s back.

    But note they also say that Britain will be in a less favourable position than Russia vis a vis trade with the EU.

    Now this may all be legally correct. And it may very largely be the result of Britain’s inept and arrogant handling of Brexit.

    But the EU really ought to ask itself whether it makes sense to humiliate a former member, the world’s 5th (for now) largest economy, member of the Security Council etc. Humiliating countries, however much they may be at fault, does not usually end well. Nor does it reflect well on the EU. And while they may not care now, they may find that this could lead to unforeseen and unpleasant consequences in future.

    Britain is not going to disappear. Just as we would be well advised to adopt a more grown up approach to our relationship with the EU, so would the EU be well advised to do the same vis-a-vi Britain.
    Right from the word go we have taken a very adversarial attitude. Using phrases like, "the EU is trying to punish us". This was just after Art.50 was triggered.

    The only logical sense coming out of this is: we are leaving and it is their duty to make it easy . Oh, by the way, can we cherry pick what we want even if that breaks the four freedoms because - wait a minute - we are so ******* important.
    You're finally getting it. Yes we are.
  • Options
    surbysurby Posts: 1,227
    edited July 2018
    OchEye said:

    Scott_P said:

    Today's Tesco Strawberry score is a ten:

    Aberdeenshire
    Fife
    Nottinghamshire
    Staffordshire
    Norfolk
    Herefordshire
    Norfolk
    Surrey
    West Sussex
    Kent

    The highest score for about three weeks.

    From the Times today

    A shortage of fruit pickers and political dithering has led to an “appalling” amount of Scottish produce being left to rot, MPs have been told.

    Politicians travelled to Scottish fruit farms yesterday to investigate a looming crisis that could worsen if immigration rules are tightened after Brexit.

    MPs also visited West Jordanstone Farm in Alyth, where the Marshall family has already had to leave crops to rot due to a lack of staff to pick them.


    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/scotland/fruit-rots-on-farms-as-eu-workers-stay-away-and-mps-dither-wcqxwg5wl
    So why don't they recruit more workers ?
    Where from? Do you actually know the work involved? Do you know that most fruit farms pay a minimum of £9 an hour? Do you know that the maximum that the Fruit Farmers association says that they pay a maximum of £550/week (admittedly after several seasons experience of picking) and they still can't get enough people? A journalist tried it out recently, and got paid £9 for a days work and was told not to come back. And the farms are under contract to the supermarkets and they are told what the price will be for grade a fruit (nothing else is acceptable, and is returned) and the farms have to work out their costs on that basis.
    Wait until we are free after Independence. Then we can import cheap fruits from anywhere and sod our farmers.
    In fact, solving the immigrant labour problem is to bankrupt the farmers first ! Also, gets ridof the subsidy problem.
This discussion has been closed.