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politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » How supporters of the main parties view ethnic minorities

SystemSystem Posts: 11,682
edited October 2013 in General

politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » How supporters of the main parties view ethnic minorities

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  • Options
    PlatoPlato Posts: 15,724
    LOL

    Rob Harris @RobHarris
    Which was 1 of the most viewed websites in UK's Dept for Environment, Food & Rural Affairs (March-Sept)? CricInfo gov.uk/government/upl…

    https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/246104/RFI5781-Defra_most_accessed_websites.pdf
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    CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 59,670
    Where ever did anyone get the idea that supporters of a certain party might be, whisper it quietly, a touch racist?
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    So, is there any polling wherein we can test the fruitcake and loony components?
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    AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 30,340
    One day someone will draw a neat Venn diagram of the three UKIP wings.
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    kle4kle4 Posts: 91,745
    Well this topic won't get awkward. I do seem to fall into the LD bracket on questions like these. Although funnily enough, like the LDs, reside in an area that is almost entirely white. Perhaps an explanation?

    Have to admit as well, since the telegraph comments section has been linked, I have greatly enjoyed the last few SeanT columns. The 'literary criticism is rubbish' piece is a favourite.

    Stanley and Gardiner need to dile down the Obama hatred though - not anything wrong with them hating him of course, and there's so much written of the opposite view that a dissenting voice is needed, but they often stray into whiny baby territory in their tone and repetition. They make Dan Hodges seem nuanced.
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    kle4kle4 Posts: 91,745
    edited October 2013
    Plato said:

    LOL

    Rob Harris @RobHarris
    Which was 1 of the most viewed websites in UK's Dept for Environment, Food & Rural Affairs (March-Sept)? CricInfo gov.uk/government/upl…

    https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/246104/RFI5781-Defra_most_accessed_websites.pdf

    Ha! Unsurprising, but hilarious. No ebay I notice. Cricinfo you can just rin in the background and check every few minutes though, so it's not the same as browsing the BBC or whatever for hours in terms of distraction at work. So i've heard.

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    tim said:

    YouGov’s research finds that concern over a non-white Prime Minister is strongest among UKIP supporters with almost six in ten (59%) of the party’s backers being “uncomfortable” at the possibility. 45% state they are “very uncomfortable” with the idea.

    Perhaps it's Dave's colour that Kipper's really have a problem with?
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    rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 53,987
    Plato said:

    LOL

    Rob Harris @RobHarris
    Which was 1 of the most viewed websites in UK's Dept for Environment, Food & Rural Affairs (March-Sept)? CricInfo gov.uk/government/upl…

    https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/246104/RFI5781-Defra_most_accessed_websites.pdf

    Presumably because of auto-updating- so someone with the page open was auto-refreshing every minute. With this site, by contrast, you actually have to hit F5 or the funny circular arrow thing.
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    PlatoPlato Posts: 15,724
    Skip Licker has no mercy

    RT @IDS_MP: Admire your moral crusade @johnprescott how's the wife by the way, over the affair yet?
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    CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,205
    The one bit that's most interesting is how evenly balanced the Labour chart is.
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    taffystaffys Posts: 9,753
    The startling thing is that this question is not about immigrants. It includes people who, presumably, are bona fide British citizens (maybe even second or third generation).

    Th poll sort of confirms my suspicions that for some people stopping immigrants coming in would be just the start.
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    TGOHFTGOHF Posts: 21,633
    No graphs on the PM effnicity ?

    25% of LDs uncomfortable with an effnik PM.
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    fpt...

    Josias wrote:

    "....Okay, we can't have evidence, and can only infer from what little has come out so far.

    "So let's look at it another way. It is clear that the heart of the Labour party was broken for a good number of years, with both sides spreading poisonous briefings. Not about the opposition, but about their own colleagues. This was known about. Careers were ended.

    "Yet no-one had the moral courage to say: enough. No-one had the intellectual honesty to say that this is not what the Labour Party should be. Instead, they all pretended that nothing was going on, that everything was fine.

    "They are all culpable in their silence. As are the journalists who also knew full well what was going on: the ones who received the poisonous briefings."



    PtP replies:

    I don't have my copy of Rawnesley to hand, Josias, but I remember enough to be sure that it is simply not true that 'they all pretended that nothing was going on'.

    On a personal, one-to-one level, Jowell and Prescott, Clarke and Milburn, and others faced the issue head on. There was even one well documented meeting of the PLP at which the Party Leadership was told bluntly to sort it out. Some paid a price for their courage, as you indicated; others remained to fight another day.

    It's very easy for us to write bravely from the anonymous safety of our computers but when you're in the firing line, it does take quite a bit of courage to speak out; and then of course there are always those who genuinely believed they were acting in the Party's interest, if not the Country's, by taking the positions they did.

    I agree it would be helpful if we were better served by our Press in this regard, but I have long since given up expecting much from that quarter.


    PS Sorry about the somewhat awkward layout - having trouble with my Vanilla.
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    TGOHFTGOHF Posts: 21,633
    AveryLP Posts: 3,870
    Ignore Favourite
    3:33PM
    Is there a market on what rEd will whine about tomorrow?

    How expensive football tickets are ?
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    PlatoPlato Posts: 15,724
    edited October 2013
    Lord Skip Licker VC @Skip_Licker
    Can't imagine why @johnprescott is pissed at the Daily Mail. Can you? pic.twitter.com/AOcE49fZsj

    https://pbs.twimg.com/media/BVqel0QIQAAMIxX.png:large
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    CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758
    edited October 2013
    TGOHF said:

    No graphs on the PM effnicity ?

    25% of LDs uncomfortable with an effnik PM.

    He's Scottish isn't he? I mean, he must be, otherwise Alex Salmond wouldn't want to debate with him. Would be completely inappropriate for a non-Scot to get involved surely?
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    kle4kle4 Posts: 91,745
    edited October 2013
    Wait, so 50% of Con voters uncomfortable at numbers of Ethnic Minorities, but only 41% uncomfortable about an ethnic minority PM? And 38 dropping to 28 for Lab voters on the same point. So unlike LD voters, they get less not more uncomfortable at the prospect of the PM being from an ethnic minority as against standard discomfort at numbers of ethinic minorities? Curious. Would that suggest it really is about numbers coming in via immigration then?

    Astute wording in the question, as taffys notes. Makes arguing the above harder.
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    The graph is unsurprising. It's well known that openness or hostility to foreigners/outsiders is one of the most important foundations of political outlook, and detailed political attitudes surveys have shown that, in the UK, party supporters are arranged along that axis, from most to least open (or from least to most bigoted) in this order: LD > LAB > CON > UKIP. Indeed, Chris Lightfoot's seminal work prior to the 2005 general election identified this factor (which he dubbed the "Axis of UKIP" as by far the most important factor in determining political attitudes - the only other significant factor was the traditional left/right economic axis, but this was much less important.
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    CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 59,670
    Another interesting finding was the 'British' question:

    How do you describe your national identity?
    British/Other (English in England except Midlands/Wales; English/Welsh, Scottish in Scotland):

    Lon: 48/33
    RoS: 43/48
    Mid/W 38/59
    North: 48/45
    Scot: 40/51
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    The grouping of ethnic minorities together is rather crude. I'd be interested to see polling on attitudes towards different minority groups.
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    PlatoPlato Posts: 15,724
    I can't say this troubles me one iota but the EU?

    "Circumcision ruling: European bureaucrats are effectively banning Jewish boys" http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/brendanoneill2/100239551/circumcision-ruling-european-bureaucrats-are-effectively-banning-jewish-boys/
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    CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 59,670
    UKIP supporters have also moved to areas with fewer ethnic minority inhabitants:

    As far as you know, did the last Local Council Ward in which you lived have..? (net more ethnic minority background in previous ward):
    Con: +17
    Lab: +5
    LibD: -4
    UKIP: +43

    (Caveat: sample ±1/4 total poll)
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    Charles said:


    He's Scottish isn't he? I mean, he must be, otherwise Alex Salmond wouldn't want to debate with him. Would be completely inappropriate for a non-Scot to get involved surely?

    David William Donald Cameron's dad was born in Scotland, which seems good enough for Bettertogether's main funder. Dave would certainly qualify for our football team if he lost 3 stone and cultivated a junky pallor.
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    Charles said:


    He's Scottish isn't he? I mean, he must be, otherwise Alex Salmond wouldn't want to debate with him. Would be completely inappropriate for a non-Scot to get involved surely?

    David William Donald Cameron's dad was born in Scotland, which seems good enough for Bettertogether's main funder. Dave would certainly qualify for our football team if he lost 3 stone and cultivated a junky pallor.
    I wonder how many of Scotland's football team won't get to vote in the great decision ?

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    Mick_PorkMick_Pork Posts: 6,530
    edited October 2013
    FPT

    Maybe I'm wrong, but if I were to bet I'd say that it will still be around in 10 years time and doing OK, though no doubt as an entirely online operation.

    The thing they would all love is eventually getting online paying for print. Be in no doubt they all want print editions right now. It's print which gives them authority. That too will change in time no doubt but for some time to come it's part of what gives them real clout.

    It's curious because so many of them are so obsessed with avoiding full paywall. The reasoning is sound enough right now but it's convenience almost as much as anything else which stops paywall taking off hugely and I guarantee you that will change. People like buying on the internet they just aren't too keen on buying papers. Yet. When it becomes as easy as a one touch/click system that is secure and hassle free then the calculation changes quite a bit against 'we can get news for nothing elsewhere' to the advantage of an easily accessible news source people like that costs very little. Freemium works well too and has it's advantages.

    The BBC are also going to have to change. Not because they've been shooting themselves in the foot with comical regularity lately but because their marketplace too is evolving rapidly. Paying for Netflix or whatever is becoming so commonplace that the license fee is looking incredibly anachronistic. They either get their head out of their arse and add a great deal more value or think about slashing the fee and possibly having freemium type models on top of it.
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    AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 29,395
    O/T:

    "Black woman reveals she is granddaughter of notorious Schindler's List butcher Amon Goeth

    German-Nigerian author Jennifer Teege is granddaughter of Amon Goeth":


    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2438552/Jennifer-Teege-Black-woman-granddaughter-notorious-Schindlers-List-Nazi-butcher-Amon-Goeth.html
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    CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 59,670
    How comfortable would you feel with a babysitter from an ethnic minority (net comfortable):
    Con: +29
    Lab: +30
    LibD: +44
    UKIP: -10
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    R0bertsR0berts Posts: 391
    I've just read the last thread, and it's one of the funniest in ages.

    The likes of hardcore Tory trolls like Plato defending the Mail versus Miliband, pretending (to laughter all round) to be a "centrist" alienated by Miliband, is predictable but hilarious nonetheless.

    Less predictable were Richard Nabavi and other sensible Tories siding with the Mail. Though Avery LP's tone was amusing, defensive but sort of depressed, knowing full well the Mail had it wrong and Miliband has scored a hit.

    We didn't hear from David Herdson, perhaps the only sane Tory PB poster remaining on this, I'd be surprised if he sided with the Mail.

    fwiw I think Southam Observer, Mike Smithson, and the rest have called it absolutely right. Miliband will get hell from the Tory press anyway, so he might as well take his victories when he can. And he's scored a massive victory on this one.
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    R0bertsR0berts Posts: 391
    tim said:

    As ever with immigration/race/crime/health polling theres a huge difference between national and local

    Thinking about YOUR NEIGHBOURHOOD, how
    comfortable or uncomfortable do you feel about
    the number of people from ethnic minorities
    who live there?

    Comfortable/Uncomfortable


    UKIP 44/37




    Hehe. Wonder what it feels like to be "the only dark skinned person in the village".
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    R0berts said:

    I've just read the last thread, and it's one of the funniest in ages.

    The likes of hardcore Tory trolls like Plato defending the Mail versus Miliband, pretending (to laughter all round) to be a "centrist" alienated by Miliband, is predictable but hilarious nonetheless.

    Less predictable were Richard Nabavi and other sensible Tories siding with the Mail. Though Avery LP's tone was amusing, defensive but sort of depressed, knowing full well the Mail had it wrong and Miliband has scored a hit.

    We didn't hear from David Herdson, perhaps the only sane Tory PB poster remaining on this, I'd be surprised if he sided with the Mail.

    fwiw I think Southam Observer, Mike Smithson, and the rest have called it absolutely right. Miliband will get hell from the Tory press anyway, so he might as well take his victories when he can. And he's scored a massive victory on this one.

    In the New Labour glory days NewsCorp and the Mail were Labour. Miliband has recently alienated them but they're hardly " Tory press " .

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    WelshJonesWelshJones Posts: 66
    edited October 2013

    The graph is unsurprising. It's well known that openness or hostility to foreigners/outsiders is one of the most important foundations of political outlook, and detailed political attitudes surveys have shown that, in the UK, party supporters are arranged along that axis, from most to least open (or from least to most bigoted) in this order: LD > LAB > CON > UKIP. Indeed, Chris Lightfoot's seminal work prior to the 2005 general election identified this factor (which he dubbed the "Axis of UKIP" as by far the most important factor in determining political attitudes - the only other significant factor was the traditional left/right economic axis, but this was much less important.

    That puts the LDs to the left of (Blairite) Labour which accords well with my own experiences in SW England (1970-1990) and all that's come out of the Coalition. Boris' description of them as 'an albatross around are necks' was grossly unfair, though.

    They're a millstone.
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    R0berts said:

    I've just read the last thread, and it's one of the funniest in ages.

    The likes of hardcore Tory trolls like Plato defending the Mail versus Miliband, pretending (to laughter all round) to be a "centrist" alienated by Miliband, is predictable but hilarious nonetheless.

    Less predictable were Richard Nabavi and other sensible Tories siding with the Mail. Though Avery LP's tone was amusing, defensive but sort of depressed, knowing full well the Mail had it wrong and Miliband has scored a hit.

    We didn't hear from David Herdson, perhaps the only sane Tory PB poster remaining on this, I'd be surprised if he sided with the Mail.

    fwiw I think Southam Observer, Mike Smithson, and the rest have called it absolutely right. Miliband will get hell from the Tory press anyway, so he might as well take his victories when he can. And he's scored a massive victory on this one.

    Richard Nabavi says he didn't support The Mail, Robets, and since he has had a long and distinguished career as a PB poster, he should be taken at his word.

    He is also one of the few decent punters frequenting the Site, so I'd cut him more slack than most.

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    Another interesting finding was the 'British' question:

    How do you describe your national identity?
    British/Other (English in England except Midlands/Wales; English/Welsh, Scottish in Scotland):

    Lon: 48/33
    RoS: 43/48
    Mid/W 38/59
    North: 48/45
    Scot: 40/51

    'The Economist' highlighted how West-Midland "effnicks" identify with England and English back in May. Slightly different from a recent Al-Beeb "perspective" but....
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    I think Easterross is quite right, I don't think I've ever heard anyone in a pub or other social gathering discussing a conference speech, apart from fellow junkies. I also suspect that the introduction of fixed term Parliaments has switched non-junkies off, since "there isn't going to be an election for a while!"

    Conversely I wonder if, when the election actually comes, people will be more interested in it, unless we start getting bombarded with "political stuff" from Christmas 2014 until May 2015! I wonder, too, if much of the speculation is habit, since if the Coalition hadn't introduced fixed-term Parliaments we'd probably have had an election by now, and in event us PJ's, plus the political press would have had our antennae twitching every time Vince Cable coughed!

    Of course Scotland's an exception this cycle, given the referendum

    Good point about the introduction of fixed term Parliaments switching non-junkies off. It has changed the entire nature of the English political cycle and means that normal people (ie. nobody on PB) pay even less attention to politics that ever. And that was from an extremely low base.

    Combined with the plunging memberships of the Lib-Con-Labs this makes for fertile territory for other parties proposing substantive (and thus noteworthy) change.
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    taffystaffys Posts: 9,753
    And he's scored a massive victory on this one.

    And that will be the end of it. The Mail will probably say 'It's a fair cop. lets lay off ed, he's clearly far too smart and popular to trifle with'

    Job done!
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    WelshJonesWelshJones Posts: 66
    edited October 2013
    R0berts said:

    tim said:

    As ever with immigration/race/crime/health polling theres a huge difference between national and local

    Thinking about YOUR NEIGHBOURHOOD, how
    comfortable or uncomfortable do you feel about
    the number of people from ethnic minorities
    who live there?

    Comfortable/Uncomfortable


    UKIP 44/37




    Hehe. Wonder what it feels like to be "the only dark skinned person in the village".
    There's only one 'family of colour' in my own Mid Wales village.

    They run (between them) the shop (father); Post Office (mother) and fish-and-chip shop (sons). The rival kebab shop went out of business shortly after a (convenient?) fire closed it down for 6+ months, at a time when it was, so the story went, in deep financial do-do. All three outlets seem to be both popular and well frequented.
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    RogerRoger Posts: 18,891
    edited October 2013
    @PTP

    " Richard Nabavi says he didn't support The Mail, Robets, and since he has had a long and distinguished career as a PB poster, he should be taken at his word."

    I'd certainly take him at his word but he unequivocally supported the Mail position. No amount of obfuscation can disguise that fact. If he's changed his mind-which any sane person should-then he hasn't posted it on here.

    He and that fruitcake Plato.
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    malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 41,970

    Charles said:


    He's Scottish isn't he? I mean, he must be, otherwise Alex Salmond wouldn't want to debate with him. Would be completely inappropriate for a non-Scot to get involved surely?

    David William Donald Cameron's dad was born in Scotland, which seems good enough for Bettertogether's main funder. Dave would certainly qualify for our football team if he lost 3 stone and cultivated a junky pallor.
    I wonder how many of Scotland's football team won't get to vote in the great decision ?

    Any who are not eligible to vote based on the Scottish Electoral register , just like all other elections.
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    EasterrossEasterross Posts: 1,915
    Just been catching up with the last thread. Have come to the conclusion a handful of PBers have spent the entire day on PB judging by the number and frequency of their comments. How sad.

    As I said the other day, I feel very uncomfortable about the manner of the attack on the late Ralph Miliband but Ed is now running the risk of seeming over-sensitive, especially when compared with the Thatcher children who kept a dignified silence when others, including at least person Ed Miliband was happy to be photographed with, carried posters denigrating a deceased elderly lady and much worse.

    I just hope that no-one on the Labour front bench has any remaining skeletons in their cupboards because we can be sure the Daily Mail and the Mail on Sunday will now throw vast amounts of cash at unearthing such as may exist.

    As a Tory, I do find it very strange that the editor who constantly "lionised" Gordon Brown seems determined to go for Brown's former bag carrier and Secretary of State for Windmills.
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    JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 38,997
    PtP:

    "It's very easy for us to write bravely from the anonymous safety of our computers but when you're in the firing line, it does take quite a bit of courage to speak out; and then of course there are always those who genuinely believed they were acting in the Party's interest, if not the Country's, by taking the positions they did."

    Yes, it is very easy. Sadly, we all come across such situations in our lives from time to time, and have a difficult moral decision to make. But it shows that they either did not have the courage to speak out publicly, or the morality, to do so.

    In the end it damaged the party, through the infighting, the consequent lack of a credible successor to Brown, and through the embarrassment caused by McBride's smearing. But it is a bit rich for someone who had neither courage or morality to speak out then, to go on about the Mail's stupid antics.

    He should have felt the same way for his colleagues.

    As I said the other day, Miliband's created a large strategic problem for himself. The next time a Labour politician is seen doing anything like this, he will have to act promptly and decisively. Which are two things he's not proved too good at so far.
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    CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 59,670
    Trouble at t'mill:

    "Michael's eventual selection in Barnsley was no accident either, supported as it was by the Amicus “union machine”. We don’t remember him raising concerns over his union’s influence in politics at that time."

    http://centrallobby.politicshome.com/latestnews/article-detail/newsarticle/unite-stands-up-for-working-people/
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    taffystaffys Posts: 9,753
    Ed is now running the risk of seeming over-sensitive,

    The headline 'Who does ed Miliband think he is?' can't be far away - even if it's on the back of a weak story.
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    OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 31,990
    tim said:

    UKIP supporters have also moved to areas with fewer ethnic minority inhabitants:

    As far as you know, did the last Local Council Ward in which you lived have..? (net more ethnic minority background in previous ward):
    Con: +17
    Lab: +5
    LibD: -4
    UKIP: +43

    (Caveat: sample ±1/4 total poll)

    There must be a chunk of Kippers who claim they have moved to areas with fewer non white people and are still uncomfortable "in their local area" (as opposed to what they have read or heard about)


    I doubt there's any level of non white presence some of these people would be comfortable with.

    I'm slightly worried that there aren't more minorites round here! Even the health professionals are white.
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    Oliver_PBOliver_PB Posts: 397
    I thought Miliband and Labour were beginning to over-egg the pudding over the Mail before the Sunday Mail revelations. What were the Mail thinking? Bonkers.

    "The Land of Hope Is Tory" is such a groaner of a line.

    The US federal government shutdown is ridiculous. US governance is such a mess. You have House Republicans in gerrymandered seats completely unwilling to compromise. The GOP is controlled by the roughly 25% of America who are ideological "Tea Party" activists, regardless of electoral consequences for the Republicans or the nation as a whole.

    Obamacare has its problems, but I still think it will be popular in the long-term.
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    NextNext Posts: 826
    Many people may just associate "ethnic minority" with "immigrant" and are expressing an anti-immigration opinion, rather than a racist one.
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    Oliver_PBOliver_PB Posts: 397
    Next said:

    Many people may just associate "ethnic minority" with "immigrant" and are expressing an anti-immigration opinion, rather than a racist one.

    I think it's unfair to assume that UKIP and Conservative voters are thick.

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    CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758

    How comfortable would you feel with a babysitter from an ethnic minority (net comfortable):
    Con: +29
    Lab: +30
    LibD: +44
    UKIP: -10

    Presumably that's because you take care selecting the babysitter and it's personal characteristics vs. ethnicty that's important. It's a very different question to an abstract one about the PM or numbers (effectively it is a hyper-local version of the 'neighbourhood' question tim highlighted)
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    TGOHFTGOHF Posts: 21,633
    Did anyone ask SNP voters - they could have been at 100% if you include English as an effnik minority...
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    taffystaffys Posts: 9,753
    The US federal government shutdown is ridiculous.

    What interests me is why the more moderate repubs don't simply lie back, think of America and vote with the dems to break the deadlock.

    I read that they are worried about being replaced by tea partiers
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    TheWatcherTheWatcher Posts: 5,262
    This will be fun.

    ' I have an old documents file somewhere where at the time I kept details of these smear campaigns, who the victims were, and exactly how Campbell’s New Labour publicity machine put their slurs and lies into the public domain. I am going to look out that old file now, but it will take a few days to get the material together and in a fit state to print. I intend to publish it by the middle of next week.'

    http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/peteroborne/100239575/alastair-campbell-treated-politics-with-more-contempt-than-any-daily-mail-journalist/
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    PtP:

    "It's very easy for us to write bravely from the anonymous safety of our computers but when you're in the firing line, it does take quite a bit of courage to speak out; and then of course there are always those who genuinely believed they were acting in the Party's interest, if not the Country's, by taking the positions they did."

    Yes, it is very easy. Sadly, we all come across such situations in our lives from time to time, and have a difficult moral decision to make. But it shows that they either did not have the courage to speak out publicly, or the morality, to do so.

    In the end it damaged the party, through the infighting, the consequent lack of a credible successor to Brown, and through the embarrassment caused by McBride's smearing. But it is a bit rich for someone who had neither courage or morality to speak out then, to go on about the Mail's stupid antics.

    He should have felt the same way for his colleagues.

    As I said the other day, Miliband's created a large strategic problem for himself. The next time a Labour politician is seen doing anything like this, he will have to act promptly and decisively. Which are two things he's not proved too good at so far.

    As I indicated, Josias, many did speak out. I even named a few, but I doubt they were the only ones. And do we know for sure that Ed was supportive of the antics, and didn't make some attempt at least to rein them in? We will probably not know the answer to that for a long time, if ever, so an open verdict for the time being, I think.

    The Mail nonsense is neither here nor there. If somebody took a pop at my old man (God rest his soul) I'd take a pop back - in my customary quiet and understated way, of course!
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    dr_spyndr_spyn Posts: 11,288
    edited October 2013
    Being more royalist than the king, does tend to cause trouble.

    Nothing wrong about asking detailed questions about the MIlibands' political philosophies, but turning up at a Memorial service and asking questions about rumours that RM was an evil, swivel-eyed British hating Marxist, was not a great idea. Whoever sanctioned the journalists' move needs to revisit moral philosophy. If Ed wasn't keen on grasping the keys to 10 Downing St, the press wouldn't be bothered about his dear old Dad's illiberal political philosophy. It is to the Milibands' great credit that they didn't beat the journalists up. I'm sure many others would have tempted to eject them with an appropriate use of forceful language.

    Listening to that great moral crusader Alistair Campbell on R5 was more excrutiating than having root canal work, the stuff about inviting camera crews, via Twitter, to visit and examine Dacre's piles was very odd. Perhaps he needs a new course of treatment.
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    TGOHFTGOHF Posts: 21,633
    taffys said:



    And that will be the end of it. The Mail will probably say 'It's a fair cop. lets lay off ed, he's clearly far too smart and popular to trifle with'

    Job done!

    Indeed - that is nailed on - like a Labour majority.
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    CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 59,670
    Charles said:

    How comfortable would you feel with a babysitter from an ethnic minority (net comfortable):
    Con: +29
    Lab: +30
    LibD: +44
    UKIP: -10

    Presumably that's because you take care selecting the babysitter and it's personal characteristics vs. ethnicty that's important.
    Which would explain the similar ratings among the traditional parties - but not UKIP supporters.....

  • Options
    OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 31,990
    Charles said:

    How comfortable would you feel with a babysitter from an ethnic minority (net comfortable):
    Con: +29
    Lab: +30
    LibD: +44
    UKIP: -10

    Presumably that's because you take care selecting the babysitter and it's personal characteristics vs. ethnicty that's important. It's a very different question to an abstract one about the PM or numbers (effectively it is a hyper-local version of the 'neighbourhood' question tim highlighted)
    I didn't think most Kippers were of an age to need babysitters! Dog walkers maybe!

  • Options
    Mick_PorkMick_Pork Posts: 6,530
    edited October 2013
    tim said:

    PoliticsHome ‏@politicshome
    Tory MP and DCMS chair John Whittingdale says latest Mail row is "a very clear breach of the existing press complaints commission code".

    err

    Jon Snow ‏@jonsnowC4 If you needed proof of the Press Complaints Commission's utter irelevance: Paul Dacre is Chair of its 'Editors’ Code of Practice Committee'.

    Rather obvious why the Telegraph had to step in and try to cool everything down on little Ed's dad, isn't it? Won't be the last time someone does either until Dacre calms down.
  • Options
    PlatoPlato Posts: 15,724

    How comfortable would you feel with a babysitter from an ethnic minority (net comfortable):
    Con: +29
    Lab: +30
    LibD: +44
    UKIP: -10

    Golly.
  • Options
    AnneJGPAnneJGP Posts: 2,869
    Plato said:

    I can't say this troubles me one iota but the EU?

    "Circumcision ruling: European bureaucrats are effectively banning Jewish boys" http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/brendanoneill2/100239551/circumcision-ruling-european-bureaucrats-are-effectively-banning-jewish-boys/

    Plato, thanks for posting this. I hadn't heard of the EU proposition on this, but more immediately significant, I think, is the fact that the article you link to doesn't even mention FGM. If my understanding is correct, that males recover rapidly yet females are in pain for life, then I would have supposed that FGM would be the prior concern. Perhaps it is.
  • Options
    MikeKMikeK Posts: 9,053
    Plato said:

    How comfortable would you feel with a babysitter from an ethnic minority (net comfortable):
    Con: +29
    Lab: +30
    LibD: +44
    UKIP: -10

    Golly.
    What a load of bollocks!
    It's one of those smear UKIP days on PB. Time you lot grew up.
  • Options
    Mick_PorkMick_Pork Posts: 6,530

    This will be fun.

    ' I have an old documents file somewhere where at the time I kept details of these smear campaigns, who the victims were, and exactly how Campbell’s New Labour publicity machine put their slurs and lies into the public domain. I am going to look out that old file now, but it will take a few days to get the material together and in a fit state to print. I intend to publish it by the middle of next week.'

    http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/peteroborne/100239575/alastair-campbell-treated-politics-with-more-contempt-than-any-daily-mail-journalist/

    Sort of begs the question why Oborne didn't hand it over to Leveson when cross examination of some of those involved could well have borne some fruit. No matter, the sooner Campbell gives it a rest the better.
  • Options
    NeilNeil Posts: 7,983
    MikeK said:


    What a load of bollocks!
    It's one of those smear UKIP days on PB. Time you lot grew up.

    You think UKIP supporters' views are so extreme that to even refer to them is tantamount to smearing the party? I suppose they are.
  • Options
    JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 38,997

    PtP:

    "It's very easy for us to write bravely from the anonymous safety of our computers but when you're in the firing line, it does take quite a bit of courage to speak out; and then of course there are always those who genuinely believed they were acting in the Party's interest, if not the Country's, by taking the positions they did."

    Yes, it is very easy. Sadly, we all come across such situations in our lives from time to time, and have a difficult moral decision to make. But it shows that they either did not have the courage to speak out publicly, or the morality, to do so.

    In the end it damaged the party, through the infighting, the consequent lack of a credible successor to Brown, and through the embarrassment caused by McBride's smearing. But it is a bit rich for someone who had neither courage or morality to speak out then, to go on about the Mail's stupid antics.

    He should have felt the same way for his colleagues.

    As I said the other day, Miliband's created a large strategic problem for himself. The next time a Labour politician is seen doing anything like this, he will have to act promptly and decisively. Which are two things he's not proved too good at so far.

    As I indicated, Josias, many did speak out. I even named a few, but I doubt they were the only ones. And do we know for sure that Ed was supportive of the antics, and didn't make some attempt at least to rein them in? We will probably not know the answer to that for a long time, if ever, so an open verdict for the time being, I think.

    The Mail nonsense is neither here nor there. If somebody took a pop at my old man (God rest his soul) I'd take a pop back - in my customary quiet and understated way, of course!
    As I said, publicly speak out. It's easy for people to say, "Oh yes, I did all I could" after the event, in books and the suchlike. But the fact is they let the poison fester.

    AFAICR, the only person to go effectively on the record at around that time was Darling. No-one else had the courage or morality to tell the world what we now know was going on.

    I doubt we're going to agree on this.
  • Options
    CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 59,670
    tim said:

    Charles said:

    How comfortable would you feel with a babysitter from an ethnic minority (net comfortable):
    Con: +29
    Lab: +30
    LibD: +44
    UKIP: -10

    Presumably that's because you take care selecting the babysitter and it's personal characteristics vs. ethnicty that's important. It's a very different question to an abstract one about the PM or numbers (effectively it is a hyper-local version of the 'neighbourhood' question tim highlighted)
    It's probably more distorted by the age issue too, more over 60's said don't know for obvious reasons, and the core Kipper demographic is the xenophobic pensioner railing against the 21st century.
    Its not just age:

    Babysitter ethnic minority (net comfortable)
    18-24: +40
    25-39: +26
    40-59: +26
    60+: +15

    There's still a 25 point swing between the 60+ group & UKIP.......

  • Options
    OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 31,990
    MikeK said:

    Plato said:

    How comfortable would you feel with a babysitter from an ethnic minority (net comfortable):
    Con: +29
    Lab: +30
    LibD: +44
    UKIP: -10

    Golly.
    What a load of bollocks!
    It's one of those smear UKIP days on PB. Time you lot grew up.
    You think this is smearing????????
  • Options
    CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 59,670
    MikeK said:

    Plato said:

    How comfortable would you feel with a babysitter from an ethnic minority (net comfortable):
    Con: +29
    Lab: +30
    LibD: +44
    UKIP: -10

    Golly.
    What a load of bollocks!
    It's one of those smear UKIP days on PB. Time you lot grew up.
    Post evidence from the poll.......

  • Options
    Imagine if Max Mosley were leader of the Tory party and he repeatedly praised the teachings and insights of his late father. There would be justified outrage and press criticism.
    Ed Miliband finds himself in a similar situation but his moral blindness is so great that he regards himself and his family as victims.

    It's hypocrisy and EdM shouldn't get away with it.
  • Options
    Plato said:

    How comfortable would you feel with a babysitter from an ethnic minority (net comfortable):
    Con: +29
    Lab: +30
    LibD: +44
    UKIP: -10

    Golly.
    I'm surprised the word Golly hasn't been banned yet, what with the connections to marmalade.
  • Options
    RobDRobD Posts: 58,967
    edited October 2013
    (very) O/T, but I thought some of the PB history buffs would enjoy this.

    An awesome animation showing the territorial changes of WW2 in the European theatre on a daily basis. All made in MS paint!

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WOVEy1tC7nk
  • Options
    On the baby sitting topic, I wonder how many Indians would feel comfortable with an 'ethnic minority' baby sitter who wasn't Indian.
  • Options
    PlatoPlato Posts: 15,724

    Plato said:

    How comfortable would you feel with a babysitter from an ethnic minority (net comfortable):
    Con: +29
    Lab: +30
    LibD: +44
    UKIP: -10

    Golly.
    I'm surprised the word Golly hasn't been banned yet, what with the connections to marmalade.
    It's only because Seville oranges are an EU staple export = they have an exemption as a regional branded food :^ )
  • Options
    TGOHFTGOHF Posts: 21,633

    Imagine if Max Mosley were leader of the Tory party and he repeatedly praised the teachings and insights of his late father. There would be justified outrage and press criticism.
    Ed Miliband finds himself in a similar situation but his moral blindness is so great that he regards himself and his family as victims.

    It's hypocrisy and EdM shouldn't get away with it.

    By focussing on the behaviour of the journos - Ed has conceded that it Marxism isn't something to be proud of.
  • Options
    maaarshmaaarsh Posts: 3,391
    Safe to say this question is subject to a significant 'spiral of silence' given the unanimity of this thread that there's only one acceptable answer. I would assume UKIP supporters are less likely to feel this social pressure given their voting preference is largely a **** *** to the mainstream anyway.
  • Options
    TGOHFTGOHF Posts: 21,633
    If Ralph Miliband was "fighting Nazi's" then I guess Ben Ainslie was invading New Zealand.

    By next week tim will have him awarded the VC for sinking the Bismark using a spanner.



  • Options
    PlatoPlato Posts: 15,724
    Cameron Brown
    @CameronBrownUK
    BBC News - UK housebuilding activity expanding at a near 10-year high, survey shows bbc.in/1fIHbM9 #forhardworkingpeople
  • Options
    dr_spyndr_spyn Posts: 11,288
    British apologists for Marxism were largely untouched by the excesses of Marxist rulers in Central and Eastern Europe.
  • Options
    PlatoPlato Posts: 15,724
    !!!!!

    Charles Johnson @Green_Footballs
    Wow. Here's Wikileaks accusing a Guardian writer of being "anti-Russian." twitter.com/wikileaks/stat…
  • Options
    MarkSeniorMarkSenior Posts: 4,699
    TGOHF said:

    If Ralph Miliband was "fighting Nazi's" then I guess Ben Ainslie was invading New Zealand.

    By next week tim will have him awarded the VC for sinking the Bismark using a spanner.



    Mr Peter Dacre was fighting no one except trying to get off with London show girls .
  • Options
    FluffyThoughtsFluffyThoughts Posts: 2,420
    edited October 2013
    tim said:



    Its a poll.
    Kipper voters responded.

    There is no grassy knoll.

    Wee-Timmy

    Unweighted. YouGov questioned 215 UKIP supporters. As such it is a sub-sample and - as OGH has pointed out many-a-time - it should not be taking seriously on a political betting site!

    Oh....

  • Options
    PlatoPlato Posts: 15,724
    RT @faisalislam: Labour still holds the record for lowest housing starts though, it should be said, before we get too much crowing....

    We?
  • Options
    Sean_FSean_F Posts: 35,845
    maaarsh said:

    Safe to say this question is subject to a significant 'spiral of silence' given the unanimity of this thread that there's only one acceptable answer. I would assume UKIP supporters are less likely to feel this social pressure given their voting preference is largely a **** *** to the mainstream anyway.

    It seems to me that the only sensible answer to most of the questions is "it depends" which isn't available. I'm comfortable with someone like Nirj Deva or Syed Kamall in a position of authority. I'm not at all comfortable with the idea of someone like Lee Jasper or Kamlesh Bahl being in a position of authority.



  • Options
    TGOHFTGOHF Posts: 21,633
    tim said:

    TGOHF said:

    If Ralph Miliband was "fighting Nazi's" then I guess Ben Ainslie was invading New Zealand.

    By next week tim will have him awarded the VC for sinking the Bismark using a spanner.



    I think you've made a fool of yourself enough over this issue, don't you?


    Did he shoot down Himmler's plane over Scotland ?
  • Options
    NeilNeil Posts: 7,983
    o/t Paddy Power have lots of markets on tomorrow's referendum in Ireland to abolish the Senate. Unfortunately I cant really point to any significant value in any of them.

    http://www.paddypower.com/bet/politics/other-politics/irish-politics?ev_oc_grp_ids=1195154
  • Options
    Sean_FSean_F Posts: 35,845

    Imagine if Max Mosley were leader of the Tory party and he repeatedly praised the teachings and insights of his late father. There would be justified outrage and press criticism.
    Ed Miliband finds himself in a similar situation but his moral blindness is so great that he regards himself and his family as victims.

    It's hypocrisy and EdM shouldn't get away with it.

    Milliband is not responsible for anything his father might have said or done.
  • Options
    TGOHFTGOHF Posts: 21,633

    TGOHF said:

    If Ralph Miliband was "fighting Nazi's" then I guess Ben Ainslie was invading New Zealand.

    By next week tim will have him awarded the VC for sinking the Bismark using a spanner.



    Mr Peter Dacre was fighting no one except trying to get off with London show girls .
    Dacre is an utter socket - the man that stood foursquare before the Uk's worst PM ever - Gordon Brown. He should be arrested for treason.
  • Options
    JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 38,997

    TGOHF said:

    If Ralph Miliband was "fighting Nazi's" then I guess Ben Ainslie was invading New Zealand.

    By next week tim will have him awarded the VC for sinking the Bismark using a spanner.

    Mr Peter Dacre was fighting no one except trying to get off with London show girls .
    Can we please get away from this rather dangerous and nasty assumption that anyone not fighting on the front line was in some way cowardly.

    I don't know what, if anything, Mr Dacre was doing for the war effort whilst at home. But the assumption that just because you were not on the front line, you were not helping, is fairly sick. Tell that to the land girls, the CO's who acted as bomb disposal officers, the Bevin Boys, and so on.

    Every soldier, sailor and airman fighting probably had two or three men and women at home working to support him.
  • Options
    R0bertsR0berts Posts: 391

    R0berts said:

    I've just read the last thread, and it's one of the funniest in ages.

    The likes of hardcore Tory trolls like Plato defending the Mail versus Miliband, pretending (to laughter all round) to be a "centrist" alienated by Miliband, is predictable but hilarious nonetheless.

    Less predictable were Richard Nabavi and other sensible Tories siding with the Mail. Though Avery LP's tone was amusing, defensive but sort of depressed, knowing full well the Mail had it wrong and Miliband has scored a hit.

    We didn't hear from David Herdson, perhaps the only sane Tory PB poster remaining on this, I'd be surprised if he sided with the Mail.

    fwiw I think Southam Observer, Mike Smithson, and the rest have called it absolutely right. Miliband will get hell from the Tory press anyway, so he might as well take his victories when he can. And he's scored a massive victory on this one.

    Richard Nabavi says he didn't support The Mail, Robets, and since he has had a long and distinguished career as a PB poster, he should be taken at his word.

    He is also one of the few decent punters frequenting the Site, so I'd cut him more slack than most.

    Ach, well, pah. Betting wise, I know as a long time reader that Richard N is one of the best posters for me, along with Tim and Mike Smithson himself*

    Politics wise, Richard's record makes it even more surprising to see him side with the Mail (which he certainly did). I can only assume a bunker mentality is setting in in Toryland.


    *I'm a casual punter, you see, I like the "66/1 Ed Miliband will fall off stage after falling over a trombone and be replaced as leader by Teresa May" type bets. Even though Tim's Buzzword Bingo tips were rubbish. Other punters, like your good self and Antifrank and some others, clearly know your onions, but get a bit hardcore for me, arbing your value overrounds left right and centre...
  • Options
    malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 41,970
    TGOHF said:

    Did anyone ask SNP voters - they could have been at 100% if you include English as an effnik minority...

    Believe it was 81% said Scottish
  • Options
    john_zimsjohn_zims Posts: 3,399
    @Tim

    'As ever with immigration/race/crime/health polling theres a huge difference between national and local

    Thinking about YOUR NEIGHBOURHOOD, how
    comfortable or uncomfortable do you feel about
    the number of people from ethnic minorities
    who live there?

    Interesting to have local figures for 91% white Liverpool?
  • Options
    JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 38,997
    RobD said:

    (very) O/T, but I thought some of the PB history buffs would enjoy this.

    An awesome animation showing the territorial changes of WW2 in the European theatre on a daily basis. All made in MS paint!

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WOVEy1tC7nk

    That's brilliant. What's impressive isn't so much the animation, but pulling together the information. I've considered doing similar for Britain's (and other country's) empires (based on something Sunil said on here) and the American Civil War.

    I'm currently working in my spare time on a browser-based depiction of the development of London's railways, using SVG to depict the lines and the stations. The Central Line's pretty much done, as is the Northern and Metropolitan, all the way out past Aylesbury. There's a long way to go, and so much researching to be done ...
  • Options
    Sean_FSean_F Posts: 35,845

    tim said:

    Charles said:

    How comfortable would you feel with a babysitter from an ethnic minority (net comfortable):
    Con: +29
    Lab: +30
    LibD: +44
    UKIP: -10

    Presumably that's because you take care selecting the babysitter and it's personal characteristics vs. ethnicty that's important. It's a very different question to an abstract one about the PM or numbers (effectively it is a hyper-local version of the 'neighbourhood' question tim highlighted)
    It's probably more distorted by the age issue too, more over 60's said don't know for obvious reasons, and the core Kipper demographic is the xenophobic pensioner railing against the 21st century.
    Its not just age:

    Babysitter ethnic minority (net comfortable)
    18-24: +40
    25-39: +26
    40-59: +26
    60+: +15

    There's still a 25 point swing between the 60+ group & UKIP.......

    Although looking at the figures in detail, it appears that only 32% of UKIP supporters are uncomfortable with a babysitter from an ethnic minority.. 47% are either comfortable, or don't care either way.

  • Options
    TheWatcherTheWatcher Posts: 5,262

    TGOHF said:

    If Ralph Miliband was "fighting Nazi's" then I guess Ben Ainslie was invading New Zealand.

    By next week tim will have him awarded the VC for sinking the Bismark using a spanner.

    Mr Peter Dacre was fighting no one except trying to get off with London show girls .
    Can we please get away from this rather dangerous and nasty assumption that anyone not fighting on the front line was in some way cowardly.

    I don't know what, if anything, Mr Dacre was doing for the war effort whilst at home. But the assumption that just because you were not on the front line, you were not helping, is fairly sick. Tell that to the land girls, the CO's who acted as bomb disposal officers, the Bevin Boys, and so on.

    Every soldier, sailor and airman fighting probably had two or three men and women at home working to support him.
    Funny, the limited self awareness of all those up in arms over the 'treatment' afforded old man Miliband by The Daily Mail, who are now slagging off Dacre's father.

  • Options
    Sean_FSean_F Posts: 35,845

    UKIP supporters have also moved to areas with fewer ethnic minority inhabitants:

    As far as you know, did the last Local Council Ward in which you lived have..? (net more ethnic minority background in previous ward):
    Con: +17
    Lab: +5
    LibD: -4
    UKIP: +43

    (Caveat: sample ±1/4 total poll)

    Where ever did anyone get the idea that supporters of a certain party might be, whisper it quietly, a touch racist?

    Hard to say. After all, of people who voted Conservative and Labour in 2010, a plurality are uncomfortable with the current size of the ethnic minority population.
  • Options
    john_zimsjohn_zims Posts: 3,399
    @CarlottaVance

    'UKIP supporters have also moved to areas with fewer ethnic minority inhabitants:'

    UKIP surge in Liverpool?
  • Options
    R0berts said:

    R0berts said:

    I've just read the last thread, and it's one of the funniest in ages.

    The likes of hardcore Tory trolls like Plato defending the Mail versus Miliband, pretending (to laughter all round) to be a "centrist" alienated by Miliband, is predictable but hilarious nonetheless.

    Less predictable were Richard Nabavi and other sensible Tories siding with the Mail. Though Avery LP's tone was amusing, defensive but sort of depressed, knowing full well the Mail had it wrong and Miliband has scored a hit.

    We didn't hear from David Herdson, perhaps the only sane Tory PB poster remaining on this, I'd be surprised if he sided with the Mail.

    fwiw I think Southam Observer, Mike Smithson, and the rest have called it absolutely right. Miliband will get hell from the Tory press anyway, so he might as well take his victories when he can. And he's scored a massive victory on this one.

    Richard Nabavi says he didn't support The Mail, Robets, and since he has had a long and distinguished career as a PB poster, he should be taken at his word.

    He is also one of the few decent punters frequenting the Site, so I'd cut him more slack than most.

    Ach, well, pah. Betting wise, I know as a long time reader that Richard N is one of the best posters for me, along with Tim and Mike Smithson himself*

    Politics wise, Richard's record makes it even more surprising to see him side with the Mail (which he certainly did). I can only assume a bunker mentality is setting in in Toryland.


    *I'm a casual punter, you see, I like the "66/1 Ed Miliband will fall off stage after falling over a trombone and be replaced as leader by Teresa May" type bets. Even though Tim's Buzzword Bingo tips were rubbish. Other punters, like your good self and Antifrank and some others, clearly know your onions, but get a bit hardcore for me, arbing your value overrounds left right and centre...

    Well, since you have been so kind and generous, I can tell you that I've heard a word for Glastonberry (3/1) in the 7.10 pm at Wolverhampton:

    Caveat emptor, as always.
  • Options

    TGOHF said:

    If Ralph Miliband was "fighting Nazi's" then I guess Ben Ainslie was invading New Zealand.

    By next week tim will have him awarded the VC for sinking the Bismark using a spanner.

    Mr Peter Dacre was fighting no one except trying to get off with London show girls .
    Can we please get away from this rather dangerous and nasty assumption that anyone not fighting on the front line was in some way cowardly.

    I don't know what, if anything, Mr Dacre was doing for the war effort whilst at home. But the assumption that just because you were not on the front line, you were not helping, is fairly sick. Tell that to the land girls, the CO's who acted as bomb disposal officers, the Bevin Boys, and so on.

    Every soldier, sailor and airman fighting probably had two or three men and women at home working to support him.
    Funny, the limited self awareness of all those up in arms over the 'treatment' afforded old man Miliband by The Daily Mail, who are now slagging off Dacre's father.

    Are you surprised, from the supporters of the 'do as I say, not as I do' party?
  • Options
    david_herdsondavid_herdson Posts: 17,419
    Sean_F said:

    Imagine if Max Mosley were leader of the Tory party and he repeatedly praised the teachings and insights of his late father. There would be justified outrage and press criticism.
    Ed Miliband finds himself in a similar situation but his moral blindness is so great that he regards himself and his family as victims.

    It's hypocrisy and EdM shouldn't get away with it.

    Milliband is not responsible for anything his father might have said or done.
    No, but he is responsible for what he says about his father.
  • Options
    AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 29,395
    edited October 2013
    AnneJGP said:

    Plato said:

    I can't say this troubles me one iota but the EU?

    "Circumcision ruling: European bureaucrats are effectively banning Jewish boys" http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/brendanoneill2/100239551/circumcision-ruling-european-bureaucrats-are-effectively-banning-jewish-boys/

    Plato, thanks for posting this. I hadn't heard of the EU proposition on this, but more immediately significant, I think, is the fact that the article you link to doesn't even mention FGM. If my understanding is correct, that males recover rapidly yet females are in pain for life, then I would have supposed that FGM would be the prior concern. Perhaps it is.
    Try telling that to boys/men who ended up having their penis amputated or died as a result, for example David Reimer:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Reimer
  • Options
    TykejohnnoTykejohnno Posts: 7,362
    R0berts said:

    R0berts said:

    I've just read the last thread, and it's one of the funniest in ages.

    The likes of hardcore Tory trolls like Plato defending the Mail versus Miliband, pretending (to laughter all round) to be a "centrist" alienated by Miliband, is predictable but hilarious nonetheless.

    Less predictable were Richard Nabavi and other sensible Tories siding with the Mail. Though Avery LP's tone was amusing, defensive but sort of depressed, knowing full well the Mail had it wrong and Miliband has scored a hit.

    We didn't hear from David Herdson, perhaps the only sane Tory PB poster remaining on this, I'd be surprised if he sided with the Mail.

    fwiw I think Southam Observer, Mike Smithson, and the rest have called it absolutely right. Miliband will get hell from the Tory press anyway, so he might as well take his victories when he can. And he's scored a massive victory on this one.

    Richard Nabavi says he didn't support The Mail, Robets, and since he has had a long and distinguished career as a PB poster, he should be taken at his word.

    He is also one of the few decent punters frequenting the Site, so I'd cut him more slack than most.

    Ach, well, pah. Betting wise, I know as a long time reader that Richard N is one of the best posters for me, along with Tim and Mike Smithson himself*

    Politics wise, Richard's record makes it even more surprising to see him side with the Mail (which he certainly did). I can only assume a bunker mentality is setting in in Toryland.


    *I'm a casual punter, you see, I like the "66/1 Ed Miliband will fall off stage after falling over a trombone and be replaced as leader by Teresa May" type bets. Even though Tim's Buzzword Bingo tips were rubbish. Other punters, like your good self and Antifrank and some others, clearly know your onions, but get a bit hardcore for me, arbing your value overrounds left right and centre...
    Posting about posters who should be taken for they word,are you the same poster Bob(we the blues)Roberts ?
  • Options
    Sean_FSean_F Posts: 35,845

    TGOHF said:

    If Ralph Miliband was "fighting Nazi's" then I guess Ben Ainslie was invading New Zealand.

    By next week tim will have him awarded the VC for sinking the Bismark using a spanner.

    Mr Peter Dacre was fighting no one except trying to get off with London show girls .
    Can we please get away from this rather dangerous and nasty assumption that anyone not fighting on the front line was in some way cowardly.

    I don't know what, if anything, Mr Dacre was doing for the war effort whilst at home. But the assumption that just because you were not on the front line, you were not helping, is fairly sick. Tell that to the land girls, the CO's who acted as bomb disposal officers, the Bevin Boys, and so on.

    Every soldier, sailor and airman fighting probably had two or three men and women at home working to support him.
    My grandfather had a horrendous time as a police constable, during the Blitz. Strangely, and unfairly to himself, he felt a lot of guilt at not having joined the army.

  • Options
    NeilNeil Posts: 7,983

    Sean_F said:

    Imagine if Max Mosley were leader of the Tory party and he repeatedly praised the teachings and insights of his late father. There would be justified outrage and press criticism.
    Ed Miliband finds himself in a similar situation but his moral blindness is so great that he regards himself and his family as victims.

    It's hypocrisy and EdM shouldn't get away with it.

    Milliband is not responsible for anything his father might have said or done.
    No, but he is responsible for what he says about his father.
    And we all saw that picture of him actually hugging his father. Disgusting.
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