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politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » That John McDonnell feels that he has to post this says a lot

SystemSystem Posts: 6,389
edited August 2 in General

imagepoliticalbetting.com » Blog Archive » That John McDonnell feels that he has to post this says a lot about the state of Labour

#WeAreCorbyn I am proud to stand in absolute solidarity with my comrade and friend, Jeremy Corbyn, who has stood with me and so many others for decades in campaigns for peace, justice and against all forms of oppression and discrimination.

Read the full story here


Comments

  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 17,015
    1st. See my post on last thread
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 17,015
    Respectful of those who think the holocaust either didn't happen or was a minor blip in history.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 33,875
    Not that I am above repeating myself, clearly, but I repeat this kind of stuff creeps me out.
    kle4 said:

    This #WeAreCorbyn stuff I find really offputting, and would do if any other politician's name was in its place (#WeAreBoJo?). Even if the subject truly were a new and transformative style for and vision of politics, which Corbyn is not (he is very much about the past and fighting old battles), it just seems so odd to invest so much in that individual even more than his message, whatever it is.

    It blurs the cause with the man in a way which seems unwise, because you will undoubtedly find, when they prove to be human, to now be committed to someone pursuing things beyond what you thought the cause was, travelling down the road to inevitable hypocrisy.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 17,015
    kle4 said:

    Not that I am above repeating myself, clearly, but I repeat this kind of stuff creeps me out.

    kle4 said:

    This #WeAreCorbyn stuff I find really offputting, and would do if any other politician's name was in its place (#WeAreBoJo?). Even if the subject truly were a new and transformative style for and vision of politics, which Corbyn is not (he is very much about the past and fighting old battles), it just seems so odd to invest so much in that individual even more than his message, whatever it is.

    It blurs the cause with the man in a way which seems unwise, because you will undoubtedly find, when they prove to be human, to now be committed to someone pursuing things beyond what you thought the cause was, travelling down the road to inevitable hypocrisy.
    It is the stuff of the lunatic asylum.
  • Richard_NabaviRichard_Nabavi Posts: 19,328
    Well, yes, John: let's be fair, no one ever doubted that you stood in absolute solidarity with your comrade and friend in his support for IRA murderers, Hamas militants, South American communist terrorists, Cuban revolutionaries, Soviet totalitarians, and sundry holocaust deniers.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 4,761
    FPT:
    Foxy said:

    Sean_F said:

    surby said:



    So the Jewish Museum is basically censuring free speech.

    Controlling others' speech seems to be the very point of having an antisemitism code. One wonders where we would be if every historically wronged minority were so successful in leveraging their plight to protect themselves from criticism.
    Criticism of Israel should not involve Jews drinking blood, holocaust denial, or claiming that Hitler had a point.
    I quite agree, but there are legitimate questions to ask. Should Holocaust Remembrance Day be exclusively to remember the Jewish Holocaust in Europe? or should we also remember similar genocides such as the Rwandan, Yazedi, Armenien or Herero and Nama genocides too? to pick some 20th and 21st Century examples.

    If it is not reasonable to compare Israel's actions in the occupied territories to the Nazis, is it reasonable to compare them with the Italian Fascists? or Apartheid South Africa or European Colonialism? In an era of Godwin's law, is it reasonable to trivialise by being a grammar Nazi?


  • Scott_PScott_P Posts: 38,815

    It is the stuff of the lunatic asylum.

    125 Labour MPs could end it tomorrow.

    But they won't
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 33,875

    KKK leader weighs in:

    hps://twitter.com/hendopolis/status/1025128424090812417

    Well, I feel many mostly reasonable figures will find themselves praised by odious people from time to time, and indeed even be horrified that it is the case. But it is still never a good look. Especially if an argument can be made it is not just 'from time to time'.

    But honestly, I'm all Corbyn'd out, and Brexited out, for the summer.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 33,875
    Scott_P said:

    It is the stuff of the lunatic asylum.

    125 Labour MPs could end it tomorrow.

    But they won't
    They could do many things, should do many things, but how can they end him being Leader? He'd win any contest and clearly at the present time is not ready to pass over to an accolyte approved for the base but who has less baggage, so he would stay and fight it.
  • surbysurby Posts: 1,227
    Foxy said:

    FPT:

    Foxy said:

    Sean_F said:

    surby said:



    So the Jewish Museum is basically censuring free speech.

    Controlling others' speech seems to be the very point of having an antisemitism code. One wonders where we would be if every historically wronged minority were so successful in leveraging their plight to protect themselves from criticism.
    Criticism of Israel should not involve Jews drinking blood, holocaust denial, or claiming that Hitler had a point.
    I quite agree, but there are legitimate questions to ask. Should Holocaust Remembrance Day be exclusively to remember the Jewish Holocaust in Europe? or should we also remember similar genocides such as the Rwandan, Yazedi, Armenien or Herero and Nama genocides too? to pick some 20th and 21st Century examples.

    If it is not reasonable to compare Israel's actions in the occupied territories to the Nazis, is it reasonable to compare them with the Italian Fascists? or Apartheid South Africa or European Colonialism? In an era of Godwin's law, is it reasonable to trivialise by being a grammar Nazi?


    You have been marked for fraternising with the enemy.
  • Scott_PScott_P Posts: 38,815
    kle4 said:

    They could do many things, should do many things, but how can they end him being Leader? He'd win any contest and clearly at the present time is not ready to pass over to an accolyte approved for the base but who has less baggage, so he would stay and fight it.

    Resign the whip.

    Labour would no longer be the opposition.

    Corbyn can be leader of anti-Semitic Labour for as long as he likes...
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 17,015
    Scott_P said:

    It is the stuff of the lunatic asylum.

    125 Labour MPs could end it tomorrow.

    But they won't
    Indeed. Cowards.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 33,875
    Scott_P said:

    kle4 said:

    They could do many things, should do many things, but how can they end him being Leader? He'd win any contest and clearly at the present time is not ready to pass over to an accolyte approved for the base but who has less baggage, so he would stay and fight it.

    Resign the whip.

    Labour would no longer be the opposition.

    Corbyn can be leader of anti-Semitic Labour for as long as he likes...
    Yes, but let's talk realistic options - they wouldn't split when he was thought to be leading them to a drubbing, and they certainly won't (en masse) when he is potentially leading them to victory, remarkable as that would be. Heck, most don't believe Corbyn himself is an anti-semite, but even those who do, and say so to his face like Hodge, aren't abandoning the party and therefore back him to be Prime Minister unless they have outright stated they will not back him for that.

    In a way this story cropping up every few months seems to give his critics the chance to demonstrate, to themselves, that they still are upholding the good name of the party and are taking him to task, and then they can go back to backing him again. (That might be analogous in tactics though not content to the Hard Brexiteers in the Tories, though it remains to be seen if that is the case or not; they might actually follow through)
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 17,015
    Pure Trump. Although at least a chance this is a bot account:


  • kle4kle4 Posts: 33,875
    How's John Woodcock's call for a new party coming along? For something so many are apparently keen on, it is taking it's sweet time.
  • Ishmael_ZIshmael_Z Posts: 5,914
    edited August 2

    In my local and now people talking about anti-Semitism. Comments are. Jews control the MSM and are frightened of socialist party getting in power. No one is taking notice of attacks on Corbyn . Right wing Labour seen as all pissing in same trough. Maj. want Tories out

    — jeff (@littlejeff5) August 1, 2018
    Has that worked?

    Here is someone reporting with satisfaction that the consensus in his local is that the Jews control the media. How does this differ from what Berlin in the early 30s must have been like?

    Edit - only sort of worked. Tweet from a thread linked to from here yesterday.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 4,761
    kle4 said:

    Scott_P said:

    kle4 said:

    They could do many things, should do many things, but how can they end him being Leader? He'd win any contest and clearly at the present time is not ready to pass over to an accolyte approved for the base but who has less baggage, so he would stay and fight it.

    Resign the whip.

    Labour would no longer be the opposition.

    Corbyn can be leader of anti-Semitic Labour for as long as he likes...
    Yes, but let's talk realistic options - they wouldn't split when he was thought to be leading them to a drubbing, and they certainly won't (en masse) when he is potentially leading them to victory, remarkable as that would be. Heck, most don't believe Corbyn himself is an anti-semite, but even those who do, and say so to his face like Hodge, aren't abandoning the party and therefore back him to be Prime Minister unless they have outright stated they will not back him for that.

    In a way this story cropping up every few months seems to give his critics the chance to demonstrate, to themselves, that they still are upholding the good name of the party and are taking him to task, and then they can go back to backing him again. (That might be analogous in tactics though not content to the Hard Brexiteers in the Tories, though it remains to be seen if that is the case or not; they might actually follow through)
    As well as being a real issue of anti semitism around the Corbyn faction, there is an element who find it useful as a stick to beat Corbyn with, and also to try to wound the NEC JC slate.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 30,271
    edited August 2
    I believe there is a typo there....its spelled Jew not few.

    In all seriousness, it is scary as hell. No matter what happens, nothing can dent their belief in Trump Corbyn.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 33,875
    edited August 2
    Foxy said:

    kle4 said:

    Scott_P said:

    kle4 said:

    They could do many things, should do many things, but how can they end him being Leader? He'd win any contest and clearly at the present time is not ready to pass over to an accolyte approved for the base but who has less baggage, so he would stay and fight it.

    Resign the whip.

    Labour would no longer be the opposition.

    Corbyn can be leader of anti-Semitic Labour for as long as he likes...
    Yes, but let's talk realistic options - they wouldn't split when he was thought to be leading them to a drubbing, and they certainly won't (en masse) when he is potentially leading them to victory, remarkable as that would be. Heck, most don't believe Corbyn himself is an anti-semite, but even those who do, and say so to his face like Hodge, aren't abandoning the party and therefore back him to be Prime Minister unless they have outright stated they will not back him for that.

    In a way this story cropping up every few months seems to give his critics the chance to demonstrate, to themselves, that they still are upholding the good name of the party and are taking him to task, and then they can go back to backing him again. (That might be analogous in tactics though not content to the Hard Brexiteers in the Tories, though it remains to be seen if that is the case or not; they might actually follow through)
    As well as being a real issue of anti semitism around the Corbyn faction, there is an element who find it useful as a stick to beat Corbyn with, and also to try to wound the NEC JC slate.
    That it is a real issue means the risk of some people using it to beat Corbyn with just because is far preferable to people dismissing the issue because they think the sun shines out of Corbyn's arse or because they are seeking to protect his position above all else. It's little different than an institution placing its own welfare above dealing with serious issues within it, because they do some good so it is better to not disrupt that even if true.

    Any party facing these issues should not be able to get away with it just because internal and external opponents will, of course, try to make even more of it. For Corbyn, I truly no longer know if he actually believes there is an issue, because those who defend him the loudest are the ones who insist there is not, and use things like #WeAreCorbyn to act like he is some kind of messiah (cue Life of Brian jokes).
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 46,236
    Back to Corbyn hating the Jews ?
    Sean Fear's pub thread was much better :)
    kle4 said:

    How's John Woodcock's call for a new party coming along? For something so many are apparently keen on, it is taking it's sweet time.

    Hah !
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 33,875
    edited August 2
    The thing is, it can. It might well be harder than it should be given potentially 12 years of someone else in government, austerity and the chance of a downturn at some point, and the divisiveness of Brexit, but it is clearly a possibility at the least.

    That it could, or should, be easier with someone else won't really make much impression when it appears he;s in with a shout despite all this.

    The Trump like nature of Corbyn's following is a fair comparison though I have to say. With May so disliked I don't know if, at present, there is such an equivalent on the other side, as whatever the following of BoJo and JRM or Farage, they are not leaders yet.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 17,015

    I believe there is a typo there....its spelled Jew not few.

    In all seriousness, it is scary as hell. No matter what happens, nothing can dent their belief in Trump Corbyn.
    Exactly. The insane cult around JC is just pure Trumpism, with a different policy angle. Same crap about the elite, the free press, voice of the people etc etc.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 30,271
    edited August 2
    John Oliver did a piece about sexual harassment last weekend. He made a decent point, those that claim they just don't know where the line is anymore are normally those that have issues / want to know exactly whats the maximum they can get away with.

    Those that claim well I just know anymore all this antisemitism stuff means I can't criticize Israel is the same. If you go around retweeting / posting on Facebook stuff about secret Jewish bankers running the world or comparing Israel to Nazi run Germany it is totally different kettle of fish to stating that Israel's response to stone throwing youths is often overly aggressive.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 46,450
    kle4 said:

    How's John Woodcock's call for a new party coming along? For something so many are apparently keen on, it is taking it's sweet time.

    When the next general election is Boris Tories v Corbyn Labour as now looks most likely will be the crunch decision time but I expect it will come to nothing.

    After the election may be a different matter
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 46,450
    Labour can win under Corbyn, the 2017 general election proved that, the problem is he would not only be an incompetent PM but a dangerous one too
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 27,620
    HYUFD said:

    Labour can win under Corbyn, the 2017 general election proved that, the problem is he would not only be an incompetent PM but a dangerous one too
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 46,450
    edited August 2

    HYUFD said:

    Labour can win under Corbyn, the 2017 general election proved that, the problem is he would not only be an incompetent PM but a dangerous one too
    I said CAN win not DID win but the 40% Corbyn got was the highest Labour voteshare since 2001 and the 262 seats he won was the highest number of Labour MPs since 2005.

    In fact only 4 post War Labour leaders have got a higher voteshare at a general election than Corbyn did in 2017, Attlee, Gaitskill, Wilson and Blair and 3 out of 4 became PM
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 17,015

    HYUFD said:

    Labour can win under Corbyn, the 2017 general election proved that, the problem is he would not only be an incompetent PM but a dangerous one too
    You are Owen Jones and I claim my five roubles.
  • FloaterFloater Posts: 6,046
    Scott_P said:

    kle4 said:

    They could do many things, should do many things, but how can they end him being Leader? He'd win any contest and clearly at the present time is not ready to pass over to an accolyte approved for the base but who has less baggage, so he would stay and fight it.

    Resign the whip.

    Labour would no longer be the opposition.

    Corbyn can be leader of anti-Semitic Labour for as long as he likes...
    They have neither the backbone nor the morals

  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 9,134
    HYUFD said:

    Labour can win under Corbyn, the 2017 general election proved that, the problem is he would not only be an incompetent PM but a dangerous one too
    Corbyn lost in 2017. It proved he can achieve a winning position and still lose.
  • FloaterFloater Posts: 6,046
    Seriously - what the fuck??

    A joke surely?

  • TheJezziahTheJezziah Posts: 1,592
    edited August 2
    I see the hashtag went well. I would like to share the devastation felt on PB by others that right wing papers can no longer mostly control the narrative.
  • TGOHFTGOHF Posts: 18,363
    Corbyn is toast,
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 17,015
    Floater said:

    Seriously - what the fuck??

    A joke surely?

    I doubt it. His crew think he is a saint, not matter what he does or says.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 17,015

    I see the hashtag went well. I would like to share the devastation felt on PB by others that right wing papers can no longer mostly control the narrative.



    Tell me the difference between the JC cult and Trump's mad supporters?
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 33,875
    Jonathan said:

    HYUFD said:

    Labour can win under Corbyn, the 2017 general election proved that, the problem is he would not only be an incompetent PM but a dangerous one too
    Corbyn lost in 2017. It proved he can achieve a winning position and still lose.
    It proved he can get his vote that high, at the least. There is no guarantee he will do so again, but if he can, the circumstances are right for the Tories not to get as high as they got last time, and he won't need to get higher to win.

    I see the hashtag went well. I would like to share the devastation felt on PB by others that right wing papers can no longer mostly control the narrative.

    I really don't think that is it. Glorification of a leader - to the point of denying there's a problem when even he has said there is a problem - to this degree is just creepy, and as noted would be just as bizarre if we get it with Boris, or JRM, or some other person.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 46,450
    edited August 2
    Jonathan said:

    HYUFD said:

    Labour can win under Corbyn, the 2017 general election proved that, the problem is he would not only be an incompetent PM but a dangerous one too
    Corbyn lost in 2017. It proved he can achieve a winning position and still lose.
    Only because the Tories got 42% by picking up most of the 2015 UKIP vote.

    Post Chequers Deal the Tories are now back to 2010 and 2015 levels at about 36/37% and UKIP are up to 5 to 8%. So if Corbyn holds that 40% he could win most seats and become PM without winning a single 2017 Tory voter over to Labour if 2017 Tory voters who have defected to UKIP do not return
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 33,875
    TGOHF said:

    Corbyn is toast,

    The most popular (breakfast) choice?

    https://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/273932/Here-s-a-toast-to-toast-our-favourite-breakfast

    (Granted, the story is from 2011)
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 9,134
    The trick is to increase your vote and minimise your opponents. Corbyn can’t do that.
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 27,620

    HYUFD said:

    Labour can win under Corbyn, the 2017 general election proved that, the problem is he would not only be an incompetent PM but a dangerous one too
    You are Owen Jones and I claim my five roubles.
    It was a joke, comrade :lol:
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 17,015
    Jonathan said:

    The trick is to increase your vote and minimise your opponents. Corbyn can’t do that.

    He's very good at increasing the vote in safe seats as has been outlined by PBer vote experts passim.
  • John_MJohn_M Posts: 7,162
    Jonathan said:

    The trick is to increase your vote and minimise your opponents. Corbyn can’t do that.

    May: *hold my beer*

    May is Corbyn's greatest boon - she's alienating her base.
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 27,620
    "For the many, not the Jew"...?
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 30,271

    Floater said:

    Seriously - what the fuck??

    A joke surely?

    I doubt it. His crew think he is a saint, not matter what he does or says.
    He's not the messiah, he's a very naughty boy....
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 33,875
    Jonathan said:

    The trick is to increase your vote and minimise your opponents. Corbyn can’t do that.

    He may not need to. It won't be easy if he cannot do it, but increasing his vote might be enough.
  • TheJezziahTheJezziah Posts: 1,592
    edited August 2
    kle4 said:

    Jonathan said:

    HYUFD said:

    Labour can win under Corbyn, the 2017 general election proved that, the problem is he would not only be an incompetent PM but a dangerous one too
    Corbyn lost in 2017. It proved he can achieve a winning position and still lose.
    It proved he can get his vote that high, at the least. There is no guarantee he will do so again, but if he can, the circumstances are right for the Tories not to get as high as they got last time, and he won't need to get higher to win.

    I see the hashtag went well. I would like to share the devastation felt on PB by others that right wing papers can no longer mostly control the narrative.

    I really don't think that is it. Glorification of a leader - to the point of denying there's a problem when even he has said there is a problem - to this degree is just creepy, and as noted would be just as bizarre if we get it with Boris, or JRM, or some other person.
    The only way the left has a chance is to rally behind the the Labour party, it isn't as if the Sun, the Mail, the Telegraph or the majority of the British press is going to do it. In fact quite the opposite.

    Also I'm pretty sure polling showed that the majority of members do think there is a problem but it has been weaponised. I suspect that some of those who say there isn't a problem either think that it is a very small percentage or not increased from previously, which would both be accurate.
  • david_herdsondavid_herdson Posts: 14,590
    This is going to end up eating itself. That level of devotional adoration is unhealthy and does not mix well with the real world.
  • TheJezziahTheJezziah Posts: 1,592

    I see the hashtag went well. I would like to share the devastation felt on PB by others that right wing papers can no longer mostly control the narrative.



    Tell me the difference between the JC cult and Trump's mad supporters?
    Tell me the difference between anyone calling out the bias they see?

    From the BBC to others, there are usually complaints on here that the latest left wing smear isn't being given enough attention.

    Also I don't think it's exactly contentious to point out the right wing lean of our press, their power is dying though so it isn't exactly the issue it used to be.

  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 17,015

    This is going to end up eating itself. That level of devotional adoration is unhealthy and does not mix well with the real world.
    seems to be no doubt in their minds that anyone else might not think their way.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 33,875

    kle4 said:

    Jonathan said:

    HYUFD said:

    Labour can win under Corbyn, the 2017 general election proved that, the problem is he would not only be an incompetent PM but a dangerous one too
    Corbyn lost in 2017. It proved he can achieve a winning position and still lose.
    It proved he can get his vote that high, at the least. There is no guarantee he will do so again, but if he can, the circumstances are right for the Tories not to get as high as they got last time, and he won't need to get higher to win.

    I see the hashtag went well. I would like to share the devastation felt on PB by others that right wing papers can no longer mostly control the narrative.

    I really don't think that is it. Glorification of a leader - to the point of denying there's a problem when even he has said there is a problem - to this degree is just creepy, and as noted would be just as bizarre if we get it with Boris, or JRM, or some other person.

    Also I'm pretty sure polling showed that the majority of members do think there is a problem but it has been weaponised. I suspect that some of those who say there isn't a problem either thing that it is a small amount or not increased from previously, which would both be accurate.
    If someone says that there is no problem we should take them at their word - why should we assume they mean other than that which they say? And they are the most vociferous defenders of the leader.

    I don't really feel the pull of tribalism, for better and for worse (for there is a good reason we have political tribes to offer semi coherent visions for our country), but I understand and respect it. #WeAreTheLeader stuff goes well beyond such tribalism, focusing on a particular person, and when manifested in a very Trump like fashion one can say it is effective, but I would argue it is still a bad thing.
  • The_ApocalypseThe_Apocalypse Posts: 7,507
    Stephen Bush still thinks Corbyn can win (well, more than that - he thinks it’s likely):
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 4,761

    Jonathan said:

    The trick is to increase your vote and minimise your opponents. Corbyn can’t do that.

    He's very good at increasing the vote in safe seats as has been outlined by PBer vote experts passim.
    Safe seats like Canterbury?

    Indeed some of the biggest swings were in Shire England. Vote share for Labour went up 20% in both Harborough and Huntington.
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 9,134

    This is going to end up eating itself. That level of devotional adoration is unhealthy and does not mix well with the real world.
    End of days. You’ll be doing it to the Mogg soon enough.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 33,875

    Stephen Bush still thinks Corbyn can win (well, more than that - he thinks it’s likely):

    So do I. It's why the rest won't act against him again - the knowledge he could be PM, and the open divisions of the Tories, mean they will pull together in the face of the weakness of their adversaries, no matter how ill a taste in the mouth some of them might get from saying 'I want Jeremy Corbyn to be PM'.

    They'll still do it.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 4,761

    This is going to end up eating itself. That level of devotional adoration is unhealthy and does not mix well with the real world.
    It will not last with Jezza in government, but it may well last until he gets there.
    Jonathan said:

    The trick is to increase your vote and minimise your opponents. Corbyn can’t do that.

    But Brexit can.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 33,875
    Foxy said:

    This is going to end up eating itself. That level of devotional adoration is unhealthy and does not mix well with the real world.
    It will not last with Jezza in government, but it may well last until he gets there.
    Jonathan said:

    The trick is to increase your vote and minimise your opponents. Corbyn can’t do that.

    But Brexit can.
    Nailed it in 2 short sentences. Totally agree.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 17,015

    I see the hashtag went well. I would like to share the devastation felt on PB by others that right wing papers can no longer mostly control the narrative.



    Tell me the difference between the JC cult and Trump's mad supporters?
    Tell me the difference between anyone calling out the bias they see?

    From the BBC to others, there are usually complaints on here that the latest left wing smear isn't being given enough attention.

    Also I don't think it's exactly contentious to point out the right wing lean of our press, their power is dying though so it isn't exactly the issue it used to be.

    Bollx. A journalist on a leading newspaper who actually wrote FAKE NEWS would be in court.

    To most people, FAKE NEWS means making stuff up and lies.

    Yeh, newspapers have agendas and prioritise one quote over another. That is not lying or making stuff up.

    Honestly, the day we give up on the free press is the day we might as well put ourselves in a time machine and set the dial to Germany 1930s.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 19,818

    Pure Trump. Although at least a chance this is a bot account:


    How long before that banner gets recycled by cutting out the middle: SICK OF JEREMY CORBYN....? One more election loss? Two? Hard no-deal Brexit?
  • MikeSmithsonMikeSmithson Posts: 4,687

    Stephen Bush still thinks Corbyn can win (well, more than that - he thinks it’s likely):

    I don't think you can make projections with such certainty at this stage. Corbyn has been weakened by the AS row which isn't going away.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 17,015

    Stephen Bush still thinks Corbyn can win (well, more than that - he thinks it’s likely):

    I don't think you can make projections with such certainty at this stage. Corbyn has been weakened by the AS row which isn't going away.
    It is certainly heading towards the number of days at which Campbell said there is a problem.
  • TheJezziahTheJezziah Posts: 1,592
    kle4 said:

    kle4 said:

    Jonathan said:

    HYUFD said:

    Labour can win under Corbyn, the 2017 general election proved that, the problem is he would not only be an incompetent PM but a dangerous one too
    Corbyn lost in 2017. It proved he can achieve a winning position and still lose.
    It proved he can get his vote that high, at the least. There is no guarantee he will do so again, but if he can, the circumstances are right for the Tories not to get as high as they got last time, and he won't need to get higher to win.

    I see the hashtag went well. I would like to share the devastation felt on PB by others that right wing papers can no longer mostly control the narrative.

    I really don't think that is it. Glorification of a leader - to the point of denying there's a problem when even he has said there is a problem - to this degree is just creepy, and as noted would be just as bizarre if we get it with Boris, or JRM, or some other person.

    Also I'm pretty sure polling showed that the majority of members do think there is a problem but it has been weaponised. I suspect that some of those who say there isn't a problem either thing that it is a small amount or not increased from previously, which would both be accurate.
    If someone says that there is no problem we should take them at their word - why should we assume they mean other than that which they say? And they are the most vociferous defenders of the leader.

    I don't really feel the pull of tribalism, for better and for worse (for there is a good reason we have political tribes to offer semi coherent visions for our country), but I understand and respect it. #WeAreTheLeader stuff goes well beyond such tribalism, focusing on a particular person, and when manifested in a very Trump like fashion one can say it is effective, but I would argue it is still a bad thing.
    I am taking them at their word, but you have to make assumptions at what they took the phrase no problem to mean. It seems unlikely that any of them meant literally no racists but you can construct an argument a single racist incident is a problem. What do you think they mean by no problem?

    I can see the argument but for the left, so not just Labour, to have an option has involved rallying around Corbyn. Given that he has been attacked quite harshly by the majority of the press and those in his own party as well as the opposition culminating in the 2016 leadership contest. Corbyn is in some ways a representative of left wing views as much as an individual, which might still be a bad thing in some ways but it has positives as well.
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 31,108
    Talking of Fake News.....looks like the SNP prefers Wings over Somerset to the BBC.....officially.....

  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 17,015

    Pure Trump. Although at least a chance this is a bot account:


    How long before that banner gets recycled by cutting out the middle: SICK OF JEREMY CORBYN....? One more election loss? Two? Hard no-deal Brexit?
    the woman in photo looks happy to be carrying a banner saying the media lies.

    can she provide an actual instance?

    and no the editorial comment pages dont count because they are 'comment' and not actual reporting...
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 17,015

    Talking of Fake News.....looks like the SNP prefers Wings over Somerset to the BBC.....officially.....

    erm. Salmond and RT?
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 46,236
    When do the Labour NEC results come out ?
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 31,108

    Talking of Fake News.....looks like the SNP prefers Wings over Somerset to the BBC.....officially.....

    erm. Salmond and RT?
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 17,015
    Pulpstar said:

    When do the Labour NEC results come out ?

    as soon as seamus has counted them all :lol:
  • TheJezziahTheJezziah Posts: 1,592

    I see the hashtag went well. I would like to share the devastation felt on PB by others that right wing papers can no longer mostly control the narrative.



    Tell me the difference between the JC cult and Trump's mad supporters?
    Tell me the difference between anyone calling out the bias they see?

    From the BBC to others, there are usually complaints on here that the latest left wing smear isn't being given enough attention.

    Also I don't think it's exactly contentious to point out the right wing lean of our press, their power is dying though so it isn't exactly the issue it used to be.

    Bollx. A journalist on a leading newspaper who actually wrote FAKE NEWS would be in court.

    To most people, FAKE NEWS means making stuff up and lies.

    Yeh, newspapers have agendas and prioritise one quote over another. That is not lying or making stuff up.

    Honestly, the day we give up on the free press is the day we might as well put ourselves in a time machine and set the dial to Germany 1930s.
    Trump goes for it far more than others and to an unhealthy level but everyone calls out the bias they perceive, right and left in the UK aren't somehow above each other.

    Right wing newspapers spin as much as lefty journalists do, anyone with half a brain can spin a good story without lying. It was one of the reasons I was somewhat disappointed in Ben Bradley around the time of the Czech spy saga. I expect obvious lies to be pushed but I also expect my opponents to be intelligent enough to push them without actually lying themselves, just plant the seed and let others make the assumption.

    Unfortunately Ben seems to be someone who believes what he reads rather than pushes the story for political benefit. Which is easier to beat but a worry when it comes to him actually governing in any way...

    I'm not calling for an end to the free press, my happiness is based on the balancing of the political scales that have been weighed down by our right wing newspapers.
  • Stephen Bush still thinks Corbyn can win (well, more than that - he thinks it’s likely):


    "The most important thing to know about the row engulfing the Labour Party is that it doesn’t matter. I take no particular joy in writing that; it ought to be disqualifying that a political party is incapable of taking decisive action to root out racists from its ranks.

    "It’s just that even a cursory glance at the history of democratic politics will tell you that majorities seldom, if ever, vote in the interests of minorities."



    Exactly. The vast bulk of the electorate votes in line with three impulses:

    1. Laziness - most voters are robots whose sum total interest in governance consists of making an X with a stubby pencil twice per decade, and will pick the same party at every general election, out of habit and so as to avoid the necessity to think
    2. Greed - most of the others will back a side based on a calculation of who will give them the most money. If more people are interested in stoking house price inflation than putting up the value of benefits then they will favour Tory over Labour, and vice versa
    3. Boredom - most of the remaining voters not deciding in line with criteria 1 or 2 will swap sides every two or three elections because they want a change; whether this change is for the better or worse is not an issue that particularly troubles them

    The proportion of the populace that thinks about the issues seriously and takes the time to make complex value judgements, or that backs one side over the others out of genuine ideological conviction, is probably no more than 5%. Or am I being too cynical?

    If I'm not then, if Corbyn can simply hold on for long enough (and who's going to dislodge him?), he'll become Prime Minister - but the same logic would apply to anybody. The British electorate would happily put Satan into 10 Downing Street if he gained control of one of the two major parties and was permitted sufficient time to wait for circumstances to move in his favour.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 46,450
    edited August 2
    President Emerson Mnangagwa of Zanu PF has been re elected with 50.8% to Nelson Chamisa of the MDC's 44.3% the Zimbabwe Electoral Commission has just announced


    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-africa-45053412
  • TheJezziahTheJezziah Posts: 1,592

    kle4 said:

    kle4 said:

    Jonathan said:

    HYUFD said:

    Labour can win under Corbyn, the 2017 general election proved that, the problem is he would not only be an incompetent PM but a dangerous one too
    Corbyn lost in 2017. It proved he can achieve a winning position and still lose.
    It proved he can get his vote that high, at the least. There is no guarantee he will do so again, but if he can, the circumstances are right for the Tories not to get as high as they got last time, and he won't need to get higher to win.

    I see the hashtag went well. I would like to share the devastation felt on PB by others that right wing papers can no longer mostly control the narrative.

    I really don't think that is it. Glorification of a leader - to the point of denying there's a problem when even he has said there is a problem - to this degree is just creepy, and as noted would be just as bizarre if we get it with Boris, or JRM, or some other person.

    Also I'm pretty sure polling showed that the majority of members do think there is a problem but it has been weaponised. I suspect that some of those who say there isn't a problem either thing that it is a small amount or not increased from previously, which would both be accurate.
    If someone says that there is no problem we should take them at their word - why should we assume they mean other than that which they say? And they are the most vociferous defenders of the leader.

    I don't really feel the pull of tribalism, for better and for worse (for there is a good reason we have political tribes to offer semi coherent visions for our country), but I understand and respect it. #WeAreTheLeader stuff goes well beyond such tribalism, focusing on a particular person, and when manifested in a very Trump like fashion one can say it is effective, but I would argue it is still a bad thing.
    I am taking them at their word, but you have to make assumptions at what they took the phrase no problem to mean. It seems unlikely that any of them meant literally no racists but you can construct an argument a single racist incident is a problem. What do you think they mean by no problem?

    Should be 'It seems unlikely that all of them meant literally no racists.
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 31,108

    Pulpstar said:

    When do the Labour NEC results come out ?

    as soon as seamus has counted them all :lol:
    Are you sure he hasn't counted them already....
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 46,236
    HYUFD said:

    President Emerson Mnangagwa of Zanu PF has been re elected with 50.8% to Nelson Chamisa of the MDC's 44.3% the Zimbabwe Electoral Commission has just announced


    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-africa-45053412

    Opposition won Harare interestingly, with Zanu dominating rural areas.
  • NemtynakhtNemtynakht Posts: 833
    I felt that I had to respond to Sean F’s previous article in support of Pubcos as I work for one and having worked across a number of sectors previously I think there are a number of inaccuracies in what Sean says.

    Whilst it is certainly the case that running a pub is very hard work I have seen many success stories of licensees working with Pubcos and making money for both parties. Whilst the beer tie may sound unfair on the face of it, the business model is much more akin to a franchise than the freehold market. A Pubco makes money from both rent and tied alcohol sales, therefore it is in the interest of the Pubco that the business is a success as it receives more income. All costs are available and shared prior to the signing of an agreement by the publican including administrative costs common to commercial leases.

    The valuation of pub businesses is undertaken by the RICS in guidelines that they set. The large decline in the values of leases has come about from the introduction of the Pubs Code as pub companies have tried to avoid the risks associated with new publicans rights. These rights mean that investment into pubs that previously could be undertaken and secured with a long lease, is now more risky and Pubcos have looked to managed house (running the pubs with managers) as a less risky option.

    Over the years I have seen financial support given to lots of publicans, but at the end of the day running a small business is risky. The company I work for tries hard to avoid business failures as it costs us significant amount of money, time and effort for every failure. They can happen for lots of reasons such a change in personal circumstance (illness, marital breakdown), fraud as well as poor business operation. In most of these instances organisations such as CAMRA will blame the Pubco and we have to respect confidentiality and not respond. We also invest significantly to reopen pubs and CAMRA will often fail to acknowledge this

    So in summary I think the company I work for is ethical and does its best to support its own interests by supporting pub businesses to make the most money possible through the tie.

    Pubs do matter as they are often have key social functions in the community, and they also collect vast sums of taxation. A large part of every pint you drink in a pub will be sent to the taxman for beer duty and VAT. Support your local pub whether it is tied or not.

    Lastly the government has already introduced a statutory code to govern the practices of the industry. It would be a good idea to see if that works.
  • brendan16brendan16 Posts: 1,304
    HYUFD said:

    President Emerson Mnangagwa of Zanu PF has been re elected with 50.8% to Nelson Chamisa of the MDC's 44.3% the Zimbabwe Electoral Commission has just announced


    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-africa-45053412

    Just enough to win outright and avoid a second round. The Zimbabwe electoral commission must have been busy over the last few days making the numbers add up.
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 2,601
    edited August 2

    I see the hashtag went well. I would like to share the devastation felt on PB by others that right wing papers can no longer mostly control the narrative.



    Tell me the difference between the JC cult and Trump's mad supporters?
    Tell me the difference between anyone calling out the bias they see?

    From the BBC to others, there are usually complaints on here that the latest left wing smear isn't being given enough attention.

    Also I don't think it's exactly contentious to point out the right wing lean of our press, their power is dying though so it isn't exactly the issue it used to be.

    Bollx. A journalist on a leading newspaper who actually wrote FAKE NEWS would be in court.

    To most people, FAKE NEWS means making stuff up and lies.

    Yeh, newspapers have agendas and prioritise one quote over another. That is not lying or making stuff up.

    Honestly, the day we give up on the free press is the day we might as well put ourselves in a time machine and set the dial to Germany 1930s.
    Hillsborough?
  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 5,746

    Bollx. A journalist on a leading newspaper who actually wrote FAKE NEWS would be in court..

    Um. no they wouldn't.

    Say for example the Daily Shit decided to run a front-page story that rottenborough wore red with green every day, never phoned his mother, and stuck Meissen figurines up your bottom. And then it decided to do this every day for a year. Sooner or later your life would be a living hell of people calling you a mother-hating fashionless china-fiddler to your face. You complain, but they ignore you. After some pressure they put a correction in a small para on an inside page. Meanwhile they continue...

    At this point you have lost your job and your reputation. You scrape up some money for a libel lawyer but they have more money than you and can remain solvent for longer than you can remain sane. You eventually go insane.

    I agree that a free press is necessary for a free society. But don't kid yourself that it's a guarantor of it either.



  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 31,108
    edited August 3

    I felt that I had to respond to Sean F’s previous article in support of Pubcos as I work for one and having worked across a number of sectors previously I think there are a number of inaccuracies in what Sean says.

    Thanks for your perspective. I suppose Sean F usually only sees one side of the story - and no doubt there are a range pf PubCos out there from the responsible to the rapacious. Having seen it from the inside - would you run a pub?
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 31,108
    viewcode said:

    Bollx. A journalist on a leading newspaper who actually wrote FAKE NEWS would be in court..

    Say for example the Daily Shit decided to run a front-page story....After some pressure they put a correction in a small para on an inside page
    Any particular Orwell Prize winning journalist in mind?

  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 31,108
    The European Medicines Agency (EMA) is to scale back operations further as it copes with higher than expected staff losses, triggered by the watchdog’s forced relocation from London to Amsterdam because of Brexit.

    “Overall, EMA expects a staff loss of about 30 percent, with a high degree of uncertainty regarding mid-term staff retention,”

    Brexit will also require a significant redistribution of supervisory work, following the loss of UK experts from the regulatory system.


    https://www.reuters.com/article/uk-britain-eu-pharmaceuticals-ema/eu-drugs-agency-sees-30-percent-staff-losses-more-cuts-in-brexit-move-idUSKBN1KM53C
  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 5,746

    viewcode said:

    Bollx. A journalist on a leading newspaper who actually wrote FAKE NEWS would be in court..

    Say for example the Daily Shit decided to run a front-page story....After some pressure they put a correction in a small para on an inside page
    Any particular Orwell Prize winning journalist in mind?

    You may think that: I couldn't possibly comment... :)
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 21,568
    Corbyn has odd friends; I mean, I can understand how the IRA and Venezuelan dictators might view him favourably; but now it turns out the leader of the KKK likes him because of his views on Jews.

    Rarely has a mainstream politician captured such a broad swathe of important people! And now he has a bunch of bots supporting him on Twitter! Where Twitter goes, so goes the country, nay, the world!

    Truly he is the Messiah!
  • SquareRootSquareRoot Posts: 5,755
    DO you mean this believer in peace, the John McDonnell who wants to have an insurrection in the UK.


    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-4874194/Corbyn-s-deputy-John-McDonnell-wants-violent-uprising.html
  • old_labourold_labour Posts: 2,950
    The 80th anniversary of the Munich agreement will be upon us soon.
This discussion has been closed.