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politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » If the senior Tory quoted here is right TMay will be out this

SystemSystem Posts: 6,389
edited August 3 in General

imagepoliticalbetting.com » Blog Archive » If the senior Tory quoted here is right TMay will be out this autumn

A senior Tory MP tells me chances of May being ousted this autumn are “100%” such is the rage at her handling of Brexit. Is she tonight pleading with Macron to give her something — anything — otherwise he will be dealing with Johnson or Gove? https://t.co/4o6beG4Id4

Read the full story here


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Comments

  • JohnOJohnO Posts: 3,255
    A languid perfunctory first?
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 4,478
    TSE is slipping.
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 4,478
    That's an enormous 'If'.
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 15,557
    AndyJS said:

    MaxPB said:

    London really does have the best restaurants in the world. I've been to all of the major global cities and there really isn't anywhere else that can compete with London. It's the greatest city in the world.

    Which do you particularly recommend?
    Just Hawksmoor on Air Street. It's just steak, but reliably great. Having lived in other parts of the world I've come to appreciate reliable quality. I'm looking forward to Elizabeth Allen's new restaurant Shibui, Pidgin was amazing and her pop up was also great. @Benpointer also.
  • I can see it happening.

    She's managed to annoy the One Nation wing when she surrendered to Jacob Rees-Mogg over the amendments.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 22,139

    I can see it happening.

    She's managed to annoy the One Nation wing when she surrendered to Jacob Rees-Mogg over the amendments.

    The party conference should be historic. It could determine the fate of May and Brexit.
  • oxfordsimonoxfordsimon Posts: 4,322
    Haven't we had this sort of 'briefing' a number of times over the past few weeks?

    It is going to take a lot more than a tweet from a novelist to make me certain that a plan is in place.
  • Our Prime Minister forced to go and beg to the President of France, Brexit truly has humiliated this great nation.

    Brexiteers need to be sterilised.
  • MaxPB said:

    AndyJS said:

    MaxPB said:

    London really does have the best restaurants in the world. I've been to all of the major global cities and there really isn't anywhere else that can compete with London. It's the greatest city in the world.

    Which do you particularly recommend?
    Just Hawksmoor on Air Street. It's just steak, but reliably great. Having lived in other parts of the world I've come to appreciate reliable quality. I'm looking forward to Elizabeth Allen's new restaurant Shibui, Pidgin was amazing and her pop up was also great. @Benpointer also.
    Hawksmoor in Manchester is pretty fab.
  • Now, abed.
  • AnazinaAnazina Posts: 2,276
    edited August 3
    Ignore these ‘senior Tories’ - May is going nowhere.

    Looking down the last few threads makes depressing reading.

    The Brexitists will sacrifice Scotland, Northern Ireland, the London (and SE) economy to realise their Trumpian nationalist dream.

    It is often said, do not fear a strong opponent, fear an irrational one. The Brexitists are beyond irrational. They are ideologues, hell bent on their goal.
  • anothernickanothernick Posts: 1,504

    Our Prime Minister forced to go and beg to the President of France, Brexit truly has humiliated this great nation.

    Brexiteers need to be sterilised.

    And I fear there will be more humiliation to come before this is over.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 22,139
    I wonder if the next party leader out might actually be Arlene Foster. It's all kicking off in the DUP at the moment.
  • AnazinaAnazina Posts: 2,276
    William

    May is far preferable to the nationalists around her.
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 15,557

    Our Prime Minister forced to go and beg to the President of France, Brexit truly has humiliated this great nation.

    Brexiteers need to be sterilised.

    Remainers have humiliated this nation. She's begging because her strategy has been awful.
  • MaxPB said:

    Our Prime Minister forced to go and beg to the President of France, Brexit truly has humiliated this great nation.

    Brexiteers need to be sterilised.

    Remainers have humiliated this nation. She's begging because her strategy has been awful.
    Because she listened to Davis, Fox, and Johnson who said Brexit would be easy and be sorted out in an afternoon.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 46,151
    Anazina said:

    Ignore these ‘senior Tories’ - May is going nowhere.

    Looking down the last few threads makes depressing reading.

    The Brexitists will sacrifice Scotland, Northern Ireland, the London (and SE) economy to realise their Trumpian nationalist dream.

    It is often said, do not fear a strong opponent, fear an irrational one. The Brexitists are beyond irrational. They are ideologues, hell bent on their goal.

    Scotland saw fewer SNP MPs elected after Brexit than before, the DUP still won most seats in NI after Brexit, the SE voted Leave
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 15,557

    MaxPB said:

    Our Prime Minister forced to go and beg to the President of France, Brexit truly has humiliated this great nation.

    Brexiteers need to be sterilised.

    Remainers have humiliated this nation. She's begging because her strategy has been awful.
    Because she listened to Davis, Fox, and Johnson who said Brexit would be easy and be sorted out in an afternoon.
    It's become patently obvious that she didn't listen to Davis and has been listening to remainer Robbins. Unsurprisingly remainer Robbins has led the nation up the garden path.
  • "I’ll believe it when I see it. Tory MPs, surely, will only back a confidence move if they are confident their choice will succeed."


    Agree. I'm assuming that the harder Brexiteers won't be able to get the huge number of votes together that are needed to finish her off in a confidence vote, in which case why would they waste what leverage they have on a challenge? The rest of the party surely won't want an episode of internecine warfare breaking out just a few months before the departure date?

    The only way that May could plausibly be ejected in the Autumn is if all the factions could agree a position on Europe and a leader capable of selling it, so that they could crown a successor unopposed. Oh look, and here comes Lord Lucan riding Shergar.

    One would've thought a more appropriate time to get rid of May would be next Summer, after she's served her purpose as a lightning conductor for any immediate disruption that might or might not be caused by Brexit. Then the party can have a proper leadership contest, hopefully in a less febrile atmosphere.

    This time around they must pick the right man or woman to take on Corbyn. If the Far Left can be kept out of power for long enough then maybe the Labour moderates will finally relocate their spines and help to save us all from them?
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 27,593

    Our Prime Minister forced to go and beg to the President of France, Brexit truly has humiliated this great nation.

    Brexiteers need to be sterilised.

    Me? Are you kidding? Hey, I was with you all the time! That was beautiful! Did you see the way they fell into our trap? Ha ha!
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 19,763
    If Robbins is there, she is doubly stuffed.
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 4,478
    MaxPB said:

    Our Prime Minister forced to go and beg to the President of France, Brexit truly has humiliated this great nation.

    Brexiteers need to be sterilised.

    Remainers have humiliated this nation. She's begging because her strategy has been awful.
    Oh the irony! The current dismal state of the nation is the fault of Remainers - wow!
  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 5,710

    Now, abed.

    For we rise at daybreak!
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 33,687
    It's just so stupid - if her handling of it is so bad, and so unpopular with both her base and the country generally, there is no excuse in delaying. What are they waiting for, to see if she can actually secure agreement for her terrible deal? Why would they be a reason to wait, when it will be terrible anyway? It makes no sense to wait for her to get the deal agreed with, say, the EU, and then kick her out.

    Ousting her in the autumn, not now, is just so they ousters can avoid the very difficult task of attempting to get a better deal and so say it is all May's fault. I don't believe them.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 33,687

    Our Prime Minister forced to go and beg to the President of France, Brexit truly has humiliated this great nation.

    You never thought a deal, any deal, would involve having to go and try and persuade other european leaders? Give me a break.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 46,151
    May will survive the autumn and until a withdrawal agreement and transition period is done.

    The danger period for her will likely be after poor post Brexit local elections in May when we have likely only gone to BINO and before the transition period is due to end in December 2020 if as is likely there is no FTA agreed by then
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 33,687

    If Robbins is there, she is doubly stuffed.

    Rule of politics no. 125 - When people are consistently and bizarrely blaming advisers and officials, be wary.
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 15,557

    MaxPB said:

    Our Prime Minister forced to go and beg to the President of France, Brexit truly has humiliated this great nation.

    Brexiteers need to be sterilised.

    Remainers have humiliated this nation. She's begging because her strategy has been awful.
    Oh the irony! The current dismal state of the nation is the fault of Remainers - wow!
    Remainers currently hold number 10, number 11, the home office and the foreign office. The latter at least was a recent change, though I think we can all agree on Boris being useless. However, the point stands. Remainers have controlled all of the major branches of government and are now trying to shirk the responsibility of their poor strategy which had left the UK in the weakest possible position in terms of getting a proper brexit deal.
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 4,478
    MaxPB said:

    MaxPB said:

    Our Prime Minister forced to go and beg to the President of France, Brexit truly has humiliated this great nation.

    Brexiteers need to be sterilised.

    Remainers have humiliated this nation. She's begging because her strategy has been awful.
    Oh the irony! The current dismal state of the nation is the fault of Remainers - wow!
    Remainers currently hold number 10, number 11, the home office and the foreign office. The latter at least was a recent change, though I think we can all agree on Boris being useless. However, the point stands. Remainers have controlled all of the major branches of government and are now trying to shirk the responsibility of their poor strategy which had left the UK in the weakest possible position in terms of getting a proper brexit deal.
    If it weren't for Leavers we wouldn't be up this shitty creek without a paddle.
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 15,557

    MaxPB said:

    MaxPB said:

    Our Prime Minister forced to go and beg to the President of France, Brexit truly has humiliated this great nation.

    Brexiteers need to be sterilised.

    Remainers have humiliated this nation. She's begging because her strategy has been awful.
    Oh the irony! The current dismal state of the nation is the fault of Remainers - wow!
    Remainers currently hold number 10, number 11, the home office and the foreign office. The latter at least was a recent change, though I think we can all agree on Boris being useless. However, the point stands. Remainers have controlled all of the major branches of government and are now trying to shirk the responsibility of their poor strategy which had left the UK in the weakest possible position in terms of getting a proper brexit deal.
    If it weren't for Leavers we wouldn't be up this shitty creek without a paddle.
    You mean the 17m people who voted leave?
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 4,478
    MaxPB said:

    MaxPB said:

    MaxPB said:

    Our Prime Minister forced to go and beg to the President of France, Brexit truly has humiliated this great nation.

    Brexiteers need to be sterilised.

    Remainers have humiliated this nation. She's begging because her strategy has been awful.
    Oh the irony! The current dismal state of the nation is the fault of Remainers - wow!
    Remainers currently hold number 10, number 11, the home office and the foreign office. The latter at least was a recent change, though I think we can all agree on Boris being useless. However, the point stands. Remainers have controlled all of the major branches of government and are now trying to shirk the responsibility of their poor strategy which had left the UK in the weakest possible position in terms of getting a proper brexit deal.
    If it weren't for Leavers we wouldn't be up this shitty creek without a paddle.
    You mean the 17m people who voted leave?
    I do.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 46,151
    edited August 3

    Our Prime Minister forced to go and beg to the President of France, Brexit truly has humiliated this great nation.

    Brexiteers need to be sterilised.

    We were forced to beg to two Presidents of France, De Gaulle and Pompidou, to be admitted to the EEC in the first place, the former refused and the latter agreed
  • mattmatt Posts: 1,983
    Is Robert Harris’ view really to be trusted? Not because he’s a liar but I thought that he is closer to Labour and the extrapolation of one MPs opinion is pretty direct thinking (regardless of identity of MP).

    Does he have a book being released soon and want any publicity?
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 27,593

    MaxPB said:

    MaxPB said:

    MaxPB said:

    Our Prime Minister forced to go and beg to the President of France, Brexit truly has humiliated this great nation.

    Brexiteers need to be sterilised.

    Remainers have humiliated this nation. She's begging because her strategy has been awful.
    Oh the irony! The current dismal state of the nation is the fault of Remainers - wow!
    Remainers currently hold number 10, number 11, the home office and the foreign office. The latter at least was a recent change, though I think we can all agree on Boris being useless. However, the point stands. Remainers have controlled all of the major branches of government and are now trying to shirk the responsibility of their poor strategy which had left the UK in the weakest possible position in terms of getting a proper brexit deal.
    If it weren't for Leavers we wouldn't be up this shitty creek without a paddle.
    You mean the 17m people who voted leave?
    I do.
    "First you gave the Leavers their Referendum and then you let them go and win it!"
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 15,557

    MaxPB said:

    MaxPB said:

    MaxPB said:

    Our Prime Minister forced to go and beg to the President of France, Brexit truly has humiliated this great nation.

    Brexiteers need to be sterilised.

    Remainers have humiliated this nation. She's begging because her strategy has been awful.
    Oh the irony! The current dismal state of the nation is the fault of Remainers - wow!
    Remainers currently hold number 10, number 11, the home office and the foreign office. The latter at least was a recent change, though I think we can all agree on Boris being useless. However, the point stands. Remainers have controlled all of the major branches of government and are now trying to shirk the responsibility of their poor strategy which had left the UK in the weakest possible position in terms of getting a proper brexit deal.
    If it weren't for Leavers we wouldn't be up this shitty creek without a paddle.
    You mean the 17m people who voted leave?
    I do.
    So you're saying that politicians are accountable to the public?
  • FregglesFreggles Posts: 2,853
    MaxPB said:

    MaxPB said:

    MaxPB said:

    Our Prime Minister forced to go and beg to the President of France, Brexit truly has humiliated this great nation.

    Brexiteers need to be sterilised.

    Remainers have humiliated this nation. She's begging because her strategy has been awful.
    Oh the irony! The current dismal state of the nation is the fault of Remainers - wow!
    Remainers currently hold number 10, number 11, the home office and the foreign office. The latter at least was a recent change, though I think we can all agree on Boris being useless. However, the point stands. Remainers have controlled all of the major branches of government and are now trying to shirk the responsibility of their poor strategy which had left the UK in the weakest possible position in terms of getting a proper brexit deal.
    If it weren't for Leavers we wouldn't be up this shitty creek without a paddle.
    You mean the 17m people who voted leave?
    A plurality of whom then elected May.

    Womp womp.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 33,687
    edited August 3
    MaxPB said:

    Our Prime Minister forced to go and beg to the President of France, Brexit truly has humiliated this great nation.

    Brexiteers need to be sterilised.

    Remainers have humiliated this nation. She's begging because her strategy has been awful.
    That it may well have been, but when the alternatives either don't have the support of the party (or they'd have acted before now so they had time to implement their plans) or openly admitted they were unable to persuade the rest of even the Cabinet (as Boris did) I think it unreasonable to suggest remainers are solely to blame for the mess we have found ourselves in. The biggest failing, an inexcusable one, was that the Cabinet could not (and probably still cannot) agree even basic things despite years to try.

    But if people who do have an idea of what they want, and claim that what they want is so super popular in the party and in the country, and would be more successful to boot, and yet have not taken action to at least try to put it into action? Well, they have to share in it then. Because I don't believe for one second that enough MPs could not be gathered for a vote against May, I don't believe, given the nature of the opposition to her proposals and the supposed clarity of plans as an alternative, that those opposed to her plan could not have done a lot more a long time ago.

    So I can only conclude they didn't want to. Perhaps they thought they'd lose, that the MPs still don't back their plans enough. But if May's plans are as bad as they say, that is not an excuse for attempting not it.

    So either they are gutless, or it is a deliberate strategy seeking to avoid responsibility. Whinges about how remainers are in the Great Offices of State don't work either, since for quite some time plenty seemed perfectly happy with what they thought May was after - now, it might be said, fairly, that they have changed their mind now they see what is occurring, but the basic principle has therefore been conceded that being a former Remain supporter does not mean, as is suggested, that you will cock things up, therefore that we have cocked up is not automatically, and solely, because of them having been Remainers.
  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 5,710
    kle4 said:

    Our Prime Minister forced to go and beg to the President of France, Brexit truly has humiliated this great nation.

    You never thought a deal, any deal, would involve having to go and try and persuade other european leaders? Give me a break.
    Looking at the past two years, I think the process has been

    Step 1) we don't need to do a deal, they will come crawling to us
    Didn't work

    Step 2) we can sidestep the EU by appealing to the national leaders
    Didn't work

    Step 3,4,5,6,7,8) repeat step 2
    Didn't work

    Step 9) Let's negotiate with ourselves and pretend that's the deal
    Didn't work

    Step 10) Let's try step 2 again.
    Didn't work

    Step 11) threaten them with by pointing out how badly they will suffer
    Didn't work

    Step 12) tell them we won't blink
    Didn't work

    Step 13) sulk and say it's all their fault
    Didn't work

  • kle4 said:

    Our Prime Minister forced to go and beg to the President of France, Brexit truly has humiliated this great nation.

    You never thought a deal, any deal, would involve having to go and try and persuade other european leaders? Give me a break.
    Persuade yes, beg no.

    David Davis thought otherwise

  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 4,478

    MaxPB said:

    MaxPB said:

    MaxPB said:

    Our Prime Minister forced to go and beg to the President of France, Brexit truly has humiliated this great nation.

    Brexiteers need to be sterilised.

    Remainers have humiliated this nation. She's begging because her strategy has been awful.
    Oh the irony! The current dismal state of the nation is the fault of Remainers - wow!
    Remainers currently hold number 10, number 11, the home office and the foreign office. The latter at least was a recent change, though I think we can all agree on Boris being useless. However, the point stands. Remainers have controlled all of the major branches of government and are now trying to shirk the responsibility of their poor strategy which had left the UK in the weakest possible position in terms of getting a proper brexit deal.
    If it weren't for Leavers we wouldn't be up this shitty creek without a paddle.
    You mean the 17m people who voted leave?
    I do.
    "First you gave the Leavers their Referendum and then you let them go and win it!"
    Agreed. But it's incontrovertable that if it weren't for Leavers and the Leave vote we wouldn't have a British PM begging help from the French president today.
  • AnorakAnorak Posts: 5,079
    HYUFD said:

    May will survive the autumn and until a withdrawal agreement and transition period is done.

    The danger period for her will likely be after poor post Brexit local elections in May when we have likely only gone to BINO and before the transition period is due to end in December 2020 if as is likely there is no FTA agreed by then

    But you told us all there would be an FTA!?

    YOU TOLD US ALL! THOUSANDS AND THOUSANDS AND THOUSANDS OF TIMES!!
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 22,139
    HYUFD said:

    Our Prime Minister forced to go and beg to the President of France, Brexit truly has humiliated this great nation.

    Brexiteers need to be sterilised.

    We were forced to beg to two Presidents of France, De Gaulle and Pompidou, to be admitted to the EEC in the first place, the former refused and the latter agreed
    Clement Attlee has a lot to answer for. We should have joined the ECSC in the first place.
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 4,478
    edited August 3

    kle4 said:

    Our Prime Minister forced to go and beg to the President of France, Brexit truly has humiliated this great nation.

    You never thought a deal, any deal, would involve having to go and try and persuade other european leaders? Give me a break.
    Persuade yes, beg no.

    David Davis thought otherwise

    Some tweets age spectacularly badly.
  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 5,710
    kle4 said:

    MaxPB said:

    Our Prime Minister forced to go and beg to the President of France, Brexit truly has humiliated this great nation.

    Brexiteers need to be sterilised.

    Remainers have humiliated this nation. She's begging because her strategy has been awful.
    That it may well have been, but when the alternatives either don't have the support of the party (or they'd have acted before now so they had time to implement their plans) or openly admitted they were unable to persuade the rest of even the Cabinet (as Boris did) I think it unreasonable to suggest remainers are solely to blame for the mess we have found ourselves in. The biggest failing, an inexcusable one, was that the Cabinet could not (and probably still cannot) agree even basic things despite years to try.

    But if people who do have an idea of what they want, and claim that what they want is so super popular in the party and in the country, and would be more successful to boot, and yet have not taken action to at least try to put it into action? Well, they have to share in it then. Because I don't believe for one second that enough MPs could not be gathered for a vote against May, I don't believe, given the nature of the opposition to her proposals and the supposed clarity of plans as an alternative, that those opposed to her plan could not have done a lot more a long time ago.

    So I can only conclude they didn't want to. Perhaps they thought they'd lose, that the MPs still don't back their plans enough. But if May's plans are as bad as they say, that is not an excuse for attempting it.

    So either they are gutless, or it is a deliberate strategy seeking to avoid responsibility.
    Could be both... :)
  • kle4 said:

    Our Prime Minister forced to go and beg to the President of France, Brexit truly has humiliated this great nation.

    You never thought a deal, any deal, would involve having to go and try and persuade other european leaders? Give me a break.
    Persuade yes, beg no.

    David Davis thought otherwise

    Some tweets age spectacularly badly.
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 4,478
    MaxPB said:

    MaxPB said:

    MaxPB said:

    MaxPB said:

    Our Prime Minister forced to go and beg to the President of France, Brexit truly has humiliated this great nation.

    Brexiteers need to be sterilised.

    Remainers have humiliated this nation. She's begging because her strategy has been awful.
    Oh the irony! The current dismal state of the nation is the fault of Remainers - wow!
    Remainers currently hold number 10, number 11, the home office and the foreign office. The latter at least was a recent change, though I think we can all agree on Boris being useless. However, the point stands. Remainers have controlled all of the major branches of government and are now trying to shirk the responsibility of their poor strategy which had left the UK in the weakest possible position in terms of getting a proper brexit deal.
    If it weren't for Leavers we wouldn't be up this shitty creek without a paddle.
    You mean the 17m people who voted leave?
    I do.
    So you're saying that politicians are accountable to the public?
    ?? I wasn't saying that, although I believe it to be true at a general level.

    Not really sure what point you are trying to make.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 33,687
    edited August 3

    kle4 said:

    Our Prime Minister forced to go and beg to the President of France, Brexit truly has humiliated this great nation.

    You never thought a deal, any deal, would involve having to go and try and persuade other european leaders? Give me a break.
    Persuade yes, beg no.

    David Davis thought otherwise

    Yes, well he thought it would be a lot easier than it was ever going to be, and I say that as someone who thought it would be hard, and still vastly underestimated how hard it would be. Persuade and beg are a matter of perspective. Yes, May's position is desperate (although frankly I am not convinced saving her position is a concern of hers anymore, since she surely knows as much as anyone she is done, this year or next, in any case), but I have no doubt any time Cameron, or Brown, or whoever, tried to get other EU heads to agree on something, it was labelled as begging by someone.

    Classing it as a humiliation that she is trying to negotiate with the man is unfounded. Are nations not able to try and persuade people, and clearly be the more keen to get agreement, without it being a humiliation?
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 10,857
    Is there supposed to be a "but"? Or any explanation for use of the conditional tense here?
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 15,557

    MaxPB said:

    MaxPB said:

    MaxPB said:

    MaxPB said:

    Our Prime Minister forced to go and beg to the President of France, Brexit truly has humiliated this great nation.

    Brexiteers need to be sterilised.

    Remainers have humiliated this nation. She's begging because her strategy has been awful.
    Oh the irony! The current dismal state of the nation is the fault of Remainers - wow!
    Remainers currently hold number 10, number 11, the home office and the foreign office. The latter at least was a recent change, though I think we can all agree on Boris being useless. However, the point stands. Remainers have controlled all of the major branches of government and are now trying to shirk the responsibility of their poor strategy which had left the UK in the weakest possible position in terms of getting a proper brexit deal.
    If it weren't for Leavers we wouldn't be up this shitty creek without a paddle.
    You mean the 17m people who voted leave?
    I do.
    So you're saying that politicians are accountable to the public?
    ?? I wasn't saying that, although I believe it to be true at a general level.

    Not really sure what point you are trying to make.
    The people voted to leave, the remainers in government are fucking it up and apparently it's the people's fault. At least in your world.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 10,857
    MaxPB said:

    MaxPB said:

    MaxPB said:

    MaxPB said:

    MaxPB said:

    Our Prime Minister forced to go and beg to the President of France, Brexit truly has humiliated this great nation.

    Brexiteers need to be sterilised.

    Remainers have humiliated this nation. She's begging because her strategy has been awful.
    Oh the irony! The current dismal state of the nation is the fault of Remainers - wow!
    Remainers currently hold number 10, number 11, the home office and the foreign office. The latter at least was a recent change, though I think we can all agree on Boris being useless. However, the point stands. Remainers have controlled all of the major branches of government and are now trying to shirk the responsibility of their poor strategy which had left the UK in the weakest possible position in terms of getting a proper brexit deal.
    If it weren't for Leavers we wouldn't be up this shitty creek without a paddle.
    You mean the 17m people who voted leave?
    I do.
    So you're saying that politicians are accountable to the public?
    ?? I wasn't saying that, although I believe it to be true at a general level.

    Not really sure what point you are trying to make.
    The people voted to leave, the remainers in government are fucking it up and apparently it's the people's fault. At least in your world.
    The bit missing from your post is the bit where some leading leaver came forward with a credible plan?
  • AnazinaAnazina Posts: 2,276
    HYUFD said:

    Anazina said:

    Ignore these ‘senior Tories’ - May is going nowhere.

    Looking down the last few threads makes depressing reading.

    The Brexitists will sacrifice Scotland, Northern Ireland, the London (and SE) economy to realise their Trumpian nationalist dream.

    It is often said, do not fear a strong opponent, fear an irrational one. The Brexitists are beyond irrational. They are ideologues, hell bent on their goal.

    Scotland saw fewer SNP MPs elected after Brexit than before, the DUP still won most seats in NI after Brexit, the SE voted Leave
    ‘HYUFD’ is an algorithm programmed by teenagers at Tory Central Office. Decent A-level standard coding, more work to do until it’s ready for market.
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 12,383
    matt said:

    Is Robert Harris’ view really to be trusted? Not because he’s a liar but I thought that he is closer to Labour and the extrapolation of one MPs opinion is pretty direct thinking (regardless of identity of MP).

    Does he have a book being released soon and want any publicity?

    Harris is anything but a Corbyn fan so I think sectarian motives can be more or less set aside.

    I find his books a bit hit or miss but I doubt very much that he needs piddly tweets to publicise them.
  • AnazinaAnazina Posts: 2,276

    kle4 said:

    Our Prime Minister forced to go and beg to the President of France, Brexit truly has humiliated this great nation.

    You never thought a deal, any deal, would involve having to go and try and persuade other european leaders? Give me a break.
    Persuade yes, beg no.

    David Davis thought otherwise

    Some tweets age spectacularly badly.
    Oh dear, what an absolute fucking show.
  • FregglesFreggles Posts: 2,853
    MaxPB said:

    MaxPB said:

    MaxPB said:

    MaxPB said:

    MaxPB said:

    Our Prime Minister forced to go and beg to the President of France, Brexit truly has humiliated this great nation.

    Brexiteers need to be sterilised.

    Remainers have humiliated this nation. She's begging because her strategy has been awful.
    Oh the irony! The current dismal state of the nation is the fault of Remainers - wow!
    Remainers currently hold number 10, number 11, the home office and the foreign office. The latter at least was a recent change, though I think we can all agree on Boris being useless. However, the point stands. Remainers have controlled all of the major branches of government and are now trying to shirk the responsibility of their poor strategy which had left the UK in the weakest possible position in terms of getting a proper brexit deal.
    If it weren't for Leavers we wouldn't be up this shitty creek without a paddle.
    You mean the 17m people who voted leave?
    I do.
    So you're saying that politicians are accountable to the public?
    ?? I wasn't saying that, although I believe it to be true at a general level.

    Not really sure what point you are trying to make.
    The people voted to leave, the remainers in government are fucking it up and apparently it's the people's fault. At least in your world.
    We should have a referendum on free money next. Make the whole country richer. Unless the haters in government can't implement it, of course.

  • anothernickanothernick Posts: 1,504
    kle4 said:

    kle4 said:

    Our Prime Minister forced to go and beg to the President of France, Brexit truly has humiliated this great nation.

    You never thought a deal, any deal, would involve having to go and try and persuade other european leaders? Give me a break.
    Persuade yes, beg no.

    David Davis thought otherwise

    Yes, well he thought it would be a lot easier than it was ever going to be, and I say that as someone who thought it would be hard, and still vastly underestimated how hard it would be. Persuade and beg are a matter of perspective. Yes, May's position is desperate (although frankly I am not convinced saving her position is a concern of hers anymore, since she surely knows as much as anyone she is done, this year or next, in any case), but I have no doubt any time Cameron, or Brown, or whoever, tried to get other EU heads to agree on something, it was labelled as begging by someone. Classing it as a humiliation that she is trying to negotiate with the man is unfounded.
    But she is not negotiating, she is in the position of a supplicant asking him to put pressure on those who are doing the negotiation.
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 4,478
    MaxPB said:

    MaxPB said:

    MaxPB said:

    MaxPB said:

    MaxPB said:

    Our Prime Minister forced to go and beg to the President of France, Brexit truly has humiliated this great nation.

    Brexiteers need to be sterilised.

    Remainers have humiliated this nation. She's begging because her strategy has been awful.
    Oh the irony! The current dismal state of the nation is the fault of Remainers - wow!
    Remainers currently hold number 10, number 11, the home office and the foreign office. The latter at least was a recent change, though I think we can all agree on Boris being useless. However, the point stands. Remainers have controlled all of the major branches of government and are now trying to shirk the responsibility of their poor strategy which had left the UK in the weakest possible position in terms of getting a proper brexit deal.
    If it weren't for Leavers we wouldn't be up this shitty creek without a paddle.
    You mean the 17m people who voted leave?
    I do.
    So you're saying that politicians are accountable to the public?
    ?? I wasn't saying that, although I believe it to be true at a general level.

    Not really sure what point you are trying to make.
    The people voted to leave, the remainers in government are fucking it up and apparently it's the people's fault. At least in your world.
    Sorry, remind me who was the Brexit Secretary until he flounced off realising it was all too difficult?
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 12,383
    edited August 3
    Anorak said:

    HYUFD said:

    May will survive the autumn and until a withdrawal agreement and transition period is done.

    The danger period for her will likely be after poor post Brexit local elections in May when we have likely only gone to BINO and before the transition period is due to end in December 2020 if as is likely there is no FTA agreed by then

    But you told us all there would be an FTA!?

    YOU TOLD US ALL! THOUSANDS AND THOUSANDS AND THOUSANDS OF TIMES!!
    Old H tells us every bit of his wisdom THOUSANDS AND THOUSANDS AND THOUSANDS OF TIMES.
  • FregglesFreggles Posts: 2,853
    Anorak said:

    HYUFD said:

    May will survive the autumn and until a withdrawal agreement and transition period is done.

    The danger period for her will likely be after poor post Brexit local elections in May when we have likely only gone to BINO and before the transition period is due to end in December 2020 if as is likely there is no FTA agreed by then

    But you told us all there would be an FTA!?

    YOU TOLD US ALL! THOUSANDS AND THOUSANDS AND THOUSANDS OF TIMES!!
    It's literally still on the Vote Leave website.

    No Deal is not The Will Of The People.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 33,687

    kle4 said:

    kle4 said:

    Our Prime Minister forced to go and beg to the President of France, Brexit truly has humiliated this great nation.

    You never thought a deal, any deal, would involve having to go and try and persuade other european leaders? Give me a break.
    Persuade yes, beg no.

    David Davis thought otherwise

    Yes, well he thought it would be a lot easier than it was ever going to be, and I say that as someone who thought it would be hard, and still vastly underestimated how hard it would be. Persuade and beg are a matter of perspective. Yes, May's position is desperate (although frankly I am not convinced saving her position is a concern of hers anymore, since she surely knows as much as anyone she is done, this year or next, in any case), but I have no doubt any time Cameron, or Brown, or whoever, tried to get other EU heads to agree on something, it was labelled as begging by someone. Classing it as a humiliation that she is trying to negotiate with the man is unfounded.
    But she is not negotiating, she is in the position of a supplicant asking him to put pressure on those who are doing the negotiation.
    I don't find that action humiliating. I find the lack of us having a coherent plan until a few weeks ago humiliating, but even if we had had one earlier we would have gone to Macron and Merkel and others and tried to get them to persuade the negotiators to ease up a bit. Indeed, it's been a part of the plan from the start, albeit pretty unsuccessfully. Talk of supplication and humiliation is just an emotional layering affecting the interpretation of the action.
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 15,557

    MaxPB said:

    MaxPB said:

    MaxPB said:

    MaxPB said:

    MaxPB said:

    Our Prime Minister forced to go and beg to the President of France, Brexit truly has humiliated this great nation.

    Brexiteers need to be sterilised.

    Remainers have humiliated this nation. She's begging because her strategy has been awful.
    Oh the irony! The current dismal state of the nation is the fault of Remainers - wow!
    Remainers currently hold number 10, number 11, the home office and the foreign office. The latter at least was a recent change, though I think we can all agree on Boris being useless. However, the point stands. Remainers have controlled all of the major branches of government and are now trying to shirk the responsibility of their poor strategy which had left the UK in the weakest possible position in terms of getting a proper brexit deal.
    If it weren't for Leavers we wouldn't be up this shitty creek without a paddle.
    You mean the 17m people who voted leave?
    I do.
    So you're saying that politicians are accountable to the public?
    ?? I wasn't saying that, although I believe it to be true at a general level.

    Not really sure what point you are trying to make.
    The people voted to leave, the remainers in government are fucking it up and apparently it's the people's fault. At least in your world.
    Sorry, remind me who was the Brexit Secretary until he flounced off realising it was all too difficult?
    Remind me, who was negotiating with the EU, Davis or remainer Robbins?
  • RobDRobD Posts: 33,964

    MaxPB said:

    MaxPB said:

    MaxPB said:

    MaxPB said:

    MaxPB said:

    Our Prime Minister forced to go and beg to the President of France, Brexit truly has humiliated this great nation.

    Brexiteers need to be sterilised.

    Remainers have humiliated this nation. She's begging because her strategy has been awful.
    Oh the irony! The current dismal state of the nation is the fault of Remainers - wow!
    Remainers currently hold number 10, number 11, the home office and the foreign office. The latter at least was a recent change, though I think we can all agree on Boris being useless. However, the point stands. Remainers have controlled all of the major branches of government and are now trying to shirk the responsibility of their poor strategy which had left the UK in the weakest possible position in terms of getting a proper brexit deal.
    If it weren't for Leavers we wouldn't be up this shitty creek without a paddle.
    You mean the 17m people who voted leave?
    I do.
    So you're saying that politicians are accountable to the public?
    ?? I wasn't saying that, although I believe it to be true at a general level.

    Not really sure what point you are trying to make.
    The people voted to leave, the remainers in government are fucking it up and apparently it's the people's fault. At least in your world.
    Sorry, remind me who was the Brexit Secretary until he flounced off realising it was all too difficult?
    Didn't he flounce off because May and Robbins were doing everything without him?
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 33,687
    RobD said:

    MaxPB said:

    MaxPB said:

    MaxPB said:

    MaxPB said:

    MaxPB said:

    Our Prime Minister forced to go and beg to the President of France, Brexit truly has humiliated this great nation.

    Brexiteers need to be sterilised.

    Remainers have humiliated this nation. She's begging because her strategy has been awful.
    Oh the irony! The current dismal state of the nation is the fault of Remainers - wow!
    Remainers currently hold number 10, number 11, the home office and the foreign office. The latter at least was a recent change, though I think we can all agree on Boris being useless. However, the point stands. Remainers have controlled all of the major branches of government and are now trying to shirk the responsibility of their poor strategy which had left the UK in the weakest possible position in terms of getting a proper brexit deal.
    If it weren't for Leavers we wouldn't be up this shitty creek without a paddle.
    You mean the 17m people who voted leave?
    I do.
    So you're saying that politicians are accountable to the public?
    ?? I wasn't saying that, although I believe it to be true at a general level.

    Not really sure what point you are trying to make.
    The people voted to leave, the remainers in government are fucking it up and apparently it's the people's fault. At least in your world.
    Sorry, remind me who was the Brexit Secretary until he flounced off realising it was all too difficult?
    Didn't he flounce off because May and Robbins were doing everything without him?
    Took his sweet time then - why did it take him so long to notice?

    It's a justifiable reason for resignation, I just cannot square it with not attempting a change in leadership right now. Well, that's not quite true. I can square it with those who are no deal supporters. But anyone who claims to want a deal and waits even a minute longer, a minute they could be spending pursuing the right kind of deal the right way, nope, not buying it.
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 15,557
    IanB2 said:

    MaxPB said:

    MaxPB said:

    MaxPB said:

    MaxPB said:

    MaxPB said:

    Our Prime Minister forced to go and beg to the President of France, Brexit truly has humiliated this great nation.

    Brexiteers need to be sterilised.

    Remainers have humiliated this nation. She's begging because her strategy has been awful.
    Oh the irony! The current dismal state of the nation is the fault of Remainers - wow!
    Remainers currently hold number 10, number 11, the home office and the foreign office. The latter at least was a recent change, though I think we can all agree on Boris being useless. However, the point stands. Remainers have controlled all of the major branches of government and are now trying to shirk the responsibility of their poor strategy which had left the UK in the weakest possible position in terms of getting a proper brexit deal.
    If it weren't for Leavers we wouldn't be up this shitty creek without a paddle.
    You mean the 17m people who voted leave?
    I do.
    So you're saying that politicians are accountable to the public?
    ?? I wasn't saying that, although I believe it to be true at a general level.

    Not really sure what point you are trying to make.
    The people voted to leave, the remainers in government are fucking it up and apparently it's the people's fault. At least in your world.
    The bit missing from your post is the bit where some leading leaver came forward with a credible plan?
    When have the leavers been in power to so so. Remainers control all the major arms of the government. Boris is, and has always been, a joke. May drummed Gove out of government and he's now in charge of some minor department, Davis was sidelined by remainer Robbins from day one and Fox is there because he is an old drinking buddy of the remainer PM.
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 4,478
    Freggles said:

    Anorak said:

    HYUFD said:

    May will survive the autumn and until a withdrawal agreement and transition period is done.

    The danger period for her will likely be after poor post Brexit local elections in May when we have likely only gone to BINO and before the transition period is due to end in December 2020 if as is likely there is no FTA agreed by then

    But you told us all there would be an FTA!?

    YOU TOLD US ALL! THOUSANDS AND THOUSANDS AND THOUSANDS OF TIMES!!
    It's literally still on the Vote Leave website.

    No Deal is not The Will Of The People.
    So it is:
    "WHAT WILL HAPPEN TO TRADE AND JOBS WHEN WE VOTE LEAVE?

    We will negotiate a new UK-EU deal based on free trade and friendly cooperation. We will carry on trading with Europe but we will also be able to negotiate trade agreements with other countries. This will help our economy grow and create more jobs.

    Some claim we will not get a trade deal but there is a European free trade zone from Iceland to the Russian border and we will be part of it. The idea that Britain will be the only country in Europe not to be part of this zone is silly. "
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 46,151
    Anorak said:

    HYUFD said:

    May will survive the autumn and until a withdrawal agreement and transition period is done.

    The danger period for her will likely be after poor post Brexit local elections in May when we have likely only gone to BINO and before the transition period is due to end in December 2020 if as is likely there is no FTA agreed by then

    But you told us all there would be an FTA!?

    YOU TOLD US ALL! THOUSANDS AND THOUSANDS AND THOUSANDS OF TIMES!!
    Canada has a FTA, Japan has a FTA so of course we will get one eventually but not by the end of the transition period and the Tories cannot go into the next general election in a BINO transition period still or Corbyn will win due to Tory defections to UKIP
  • RobDRobD Posts: 33,964
    kle4 said:

    RobD said:

    MaxPB said:

    MaxPB said:

    MaxPB said:

    MaxPB said:

    MaxPB said:

    Our Prime Minister forced to go and beg to the President of France, Brexit truly has humiliated this great nation.

    Brexiteers need to be sterilised.

    Remainers have humiliated this nation. She's begging because her strategy has been awful.
    Oh the irony! The current dismal state of the nation is the fault of Remainers - wow!
    Remainers currently hold number 10, number 11, the home office and the foreign office. The latter at least was a recent change, though I think we can all agree on Boris being useless. However, the point stands. Remainers have controlled all of the major branches of government and are now trying to shirk the responsibility of their poor strategy which had left the UK in the weakest possible position in terms of getting a proper brexit deal.
    If it weren't for Leavers we wouldn't be up this shitty creek without a paddle.
    You mean the 17m people who voted leave?
    I do.
    So you're saying that politicians are accountable to the public?
    ?? I wasn't saying that, although I believe it to be true at a general level.

    Not really sure what point you are trying to make.
    The people voted to leave, the remainers in government are fucking it up and apparently it's the people's fault. At least in your world.
    Sorry, remind me who was the Brexit Secretary until he flounced off realising it was all too difficult?
    Didn't he flounce off because May and Robbins were doing everything without him?
    Took his sweet time then - why did it take him so long to notice?

    It's a justifiable reason for resignation, I just cannot square it with not attempting a change in leadership right now. Well, that's not quite true. I can square it with those who are no deal supporters. But anyone who claims to want a deal and waits even a minute longer, a minute they could be spending pursuing the right kind of deal the right way, nope, not buying it.
    Because May kept putting off the crunch vote where the Cabinet had to decide what direction to go in.
  • OllyTOllyT Posts: 1,728
    MaxPB said:

    MaxPB said:

    MaxPB said:

    MaxPB said:

    MaxPB said:

    Our Prime Minister forced to go and beg to the President of France, Brexit truly has humiliated this great nation.

    Brexiteers need to be sterilised.

    Remainers have humiliated this nation. She's begging because her strategy has been awful.
    Oh the irony! The current dismal state of the nation is the fault of Remainers - wow!
    Remainers currently hold number 10, number 11, the home office and the foreign office. The latter at least was a recent change, though I think we can all agree on Boris being useless. However, the point stands. Remainers have controlled all of the major branches of government and are now trying to shirk the responsibility of their poor strategy which had left the UK in the weakest possible position in terms of getting a proper brexit deal.
    If it weren't for Leavers we wouldn't be up this shitty creek without a paddle.
    You mean the 17m people who voted leave?
    I do.
    So you're saying that politicians are accountable to the public?
    ?? I wasn't saying that, although I believe it to be true at a general level.

    Not really sure what point you are trying to make.
    The people voted to leave, the remainers in government are fucking it up and apparently it's the people's fault. At least in your world.
    I genuinely do not understand how a supposedly intelligent person can actually believe that. Thing is, I doubt you do but are too invested in Brexit to ever admit it was always going to be a dog's breakfast.
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 4,478
    HYUFD said:

    Anorak said:

    HYUFD said:

    May will survive the autumn and until a withdrawal agreement and transition period is done.

    The danger period for her will likely be after poor post Brexit local elections in May when we have likely only gone to BINO and before the transition period is due to end in December 2020 if as is likely there is no FTA agreed by then

    But you told us all there would be an FTA!?

    YOU TOLD US ALL! THOUSANDS AND THOUSANDS AND THOUSANDS OF TIMES!!
    Canada has a FTA, Japan has a FTA so of course we will get one eventually but not by the end of the transition period and the Tories cannot go into the next general election in a BINO transition period still or Corbyn will win due to Tory defections to UKIP
    You're sounding more like Corporal Jones every day "Don't panic Mr Mainwaring!"
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 33,687
    MaxPB said:

    IanB2 said:

    MaxPB said:

    MaxPB said:

    MaxPB said:

    MaxPB said:

    MaxPB said:

    Our Prime Minister forced to go and beg to the President of France, Brexit truly has humiliated this great nation.

    Brexiteers need to be sterilised.

    Remainers have humiliated this nation. She's begging because her strategy has been awful.
    Oh the irony! The current dismal state of the nation is the fault of Remainers - wow!
    Remainers currently hold number 10, number 11, the home office and the foreign office. The latter at least was a recent change, though I think we can all agree on Boris being useless. However, the point stands. Remainers have controlled all of the major branches of government and are now trying to shirk the responsibility of their poor strategy which had left the UK in the weakest possible position in terms of getting a proper brexit deal.
    If it weren't for Leavers we wouldn't be up this shitty creek without a paddle.
    You mean the 17m people who voted leave?
    I do.
    So you're saying that politicians are accountable to the public?
    ?? I wasn't saying that, although I believe it to be true at a general level.

    Not really sure what point you are trying to make.
    The people voted to leave, the remainers in government are fucking it up and apparently it's the people's fault. At least in your world.
    The bit missing from your post is the bit where some leading leaver came forward with a credible plan?
    Davis was sidelined by remainer Robbins from day one .
    And yet he stuck it out for years, and only at Chequers did he realize the Rubicon had been crossed? And he is still not actually trying to change the government's direction, but at best is waiting for May to fail on her own or leave it too late to try something else? This is another of those political defences which relies on the person involved being an idiot.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 46,151
    edited August 3

    HYUFD said:

    Our Prime Minister forced to go and beg to the President of France, Brexit truly has humiliated this great nation.

    Brexiteers need to be sterilised.

    We were forced to beg to two Presidents of France, De Gaulle and Pompidou, to be admitted to the EEC in the first place, the former refused and the latter agreed
    Clement Attlee has a lot to answer for. We should have joined the ECSC in the first place.
    No, Ted Heath has a lot to answer for, we should have stayed in EFTA after the De Gaulle rebuff.

    De Gaulle knew us better than we did ourselves and that if we did join the EEC we would do nothing but complain and hold back the Federalist core as it proved while also keeping our links with the US and Commonwealth
  • Richard_NabaviRichard_Nabavi Posts: 19,268
    I'm struggling to see what the complaint is about Theresa May's charm offensive to EU leaders. As Remainy journalists and others are keen to point out ad nauseam, the EU27 are united and Michel Barnier is simply working to the brief he's been given. That is right, and it follows that, if that brief is preventing progress being made - and it is - then there's no point arguing with Barnier about it. We need to try to persuade the 27 organ grinders to get their monkey to play a slightly different tune.

    Now, it might not work, although it has to be admitted that Theresa May actually has quite a good record on this kind of thing (think her patient negotiations with France over controls in Calais, or with Jordan over Abu Hamza). But it's the sensible thing to try, non? So why* are people bitching?

    * This is a rhetorical question.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 46,151
    edited August 3

    HYUFD said:

    Anorak said:

    HYUFD said:

    May will survive the autumn and until a withdrawal agreement and transition period is done.

    The danger period for her will likely be after poor post Brexit local elections in May when we have likely only gone to BINO and before the transition period is due to end in December 2020 if as is likely there is no FTA agreed by then

    But you told us all there would be an FTA!?

    YOU TOLD US ALL! THOUSANDS AND THOUSANDS AND THOUSANDS OF TIMES!!
    Canada has a FTA, Japan has a FTA so of course we will get one eventually but not by the end of the transition period and the Tories cannot go into the next general election in a BINO transition period still or Corbyn will win due to Tory defections to UKIP
    You're sounding more like Corporal Jones every day "Don't panic Mr Mainwaring!"
    It is diehard Remainers doing the panicking
  • FregglesFreggles Posts: 2,853
    Pro Tip for Leavers:


    Next time if you don't want a Remainer as PM, don't nominate an Andrea Leadsom :lol:

    If you wanted a Leaver PM you should have elected one - GE 2017 will of the people must be respected.
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 4,478
    MaxPB said:

    IanB2 said:

    MaxPB said:

    MaxPB said:

    MaxPB said:

    MaxPB said:

    MaxPB said:

    Our Prime Minister forced to go and beg to the President of France, Brexit truly has humiliated this great nation.

    Brexiteers need to be sterilised.

    Remainers have humiliated this nation. She's begging because her strategy has been awful.
    Oh the irony! The current dismal state of the nation is the fault of Remainers - wow!
    Remainers currently hold number 10, number 11, the home office and the foreign office. The latter at least was a recent change, though I think we can all agree on Boris being useless. However, the point stands. Remainers have controlled all of the major branches of government and are now trying to shirk the responsibility of their poor strategy which had left the UK in the weakest possible position in terms of getting a proper brexit deal.
    If it weren't for Leavers we wouldn't be up this shitty creek without a paddle.
    You mean the 17m people who voted leave?
    I do.
    So you're saying that politicians are accountable to the public?
    ?? I wasn't saying that, although I believe it to be true at a general level.

    Not really sure what point you are trying to make.
    The people voted to leave, the remainers in government are fucking it up and apparently it's the people's fault. At least in your world.
    The bit missing from your post is the bit where some leading leaver came forward with a credible plan?
    When have the leavers been in power to so so. Remainers control all the major arms of the government. Boris is, and has always been, a joke. May drummed Gove out of government and he's now in charge of some minor department, Davis was sidelined by remainer Robbins from day one and Fox is there because he is an old drinking buddy of the remainer PM.
    Jeez just have a read of your post. "Remainers control all the major arms of the government." ...except for the three areas most closely associated with Brexit. But those Leavers don't really count because they were not much cop.

    One day you will have to admit (if only to yourself) that Brexit was a huge fecking mistake from start to finish.
  • AnorakAnorak Posts: 5,079
    MaxPB said:

    IanB2 said:

    The bit missing from your post is the bit where some leading leaver came forward with a credible plan?

    When have the leavers been in power to so so. Remainers control all the major arms of the government. Boris is, and has always been, a joke. May drummed Gove out of government and he's now in charge of some minor department, Davis was sidelined by remainer Robbins from day one and Fox is there because he is an old drinking buddy of the remainer PM.
    That is a truly spectacular post.

    All the leavers are either incompetent or cronies or politically inept but we were meant to follow their dream to the Brexit Land of Milk and Honey and Free Trade and No Foreign People and Proper Bananas.
  • FF43FF43 Posts: 7,326
    Theresa May is the best the Conservatives have got.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 33,687
    RobD said:



    Because May kept putting off the crunch vote where the Cabinet had to decide what direction to go in.

    And they let her do it. As we've just heard, Davis was apparently sidelined from day one. Indeed, it was a running joke on here about how many times it was leaked that he was thinking of resigning. In his letter he detailed longstanding concerns.

    So that explanation does not absolve them in my eyes. Either they don't really want a deal (and if they don't and never did, and are happy to say so, fine), or they are sniping without acting. Even if we accept they could not have quit before Chequers as the direction was not set, it is set now, and is apparently terrible and unpopular, so why not try something rather than wait for the EU to toss it out? What if, against the odds, May were to get them to back down? If they believe in a better deal, they should act. If they believe in no deal, they can just vote it down later, sure.

    It says something that May's plan never looked realistic, is clearly doomed, and I still think she is at least trying to get something done about it all, and not just lining herself up for a future leadership contest (albeit because she knows she won't be fighting another one).
  • rpjsrpjs Posts: 1,073
    Freggles said:

    MaxPB said:

    MaxPB said:

    MaxPB said:

    MaxPB said:

    MaxPB said:

    Our Prime Minister forced to go and beg to the President of France, Brexit truly has humiliated this great nation.

    Brexiteers need to be sterilised.

    Remainers have humiliated this nation. She's begging because her strategy has been awful.
    Oh the irony! The current dismal state of the nation is the fault of Remainers - wow!
    Remainers currently hold number 10, number 11, the home office and the foreign office. The latter at least was a recent change, though I think we can all agree on Boris being useless. However, the point stands. Remainers have controlled all of the major branches of government and are now trying to shirk the responsibility of their poor strategy which had left the UK in the weakest possible position in terms of getting a proper brexit deal.
    If it weren't for Leavers we wouldn't be up this shitty creek without a paddle.
    You mean the 17m people who voted leave?
    I do.
    So you're saying that politicians are accountable to the public?
    ?? I wasn't saying that, although I believe it to be true at a general level.

    Not really sure what point you are trying to make.
    The people voted to leave, the remainers in government are fucking it up and apparently it's the people's fault. At least in your world.
    We should have a referendum on free money next. Make the whole country richer. Unless the haters in government can't implement it, of course.

    Precisely. I don't understand why PB Tories aren't celebrating that the electorate is being taught a lesson that just because they voted for something, it doesn't mean it's a good idea or even possible.

    Or does that rule only apply to lefties promising "magic money trees" and "free owls"?
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 4,478
    FF43 said:

    Theresa May is the best the Conservatives have got.

    That is both true and shocking.
  • rpjsrpjs Posts: 1,073
    edited August 3
    kle4 said:

    RobD said:



    Because May kept putting off the crunch vote where the Cabinet had to decide what direction to go in.

    And they let her do it. As we've just heard, Davis was apparently sidelined from day one. Indeed, it was a running joke on here about how many times it was leaked that he was thinking of resigning. In his letter he detailed longstanding concerns.
    It might have helped if he'd spent more than four hours in actual negotiations with the EU, what with him being Her Majesty's Principal Secretary of State for Exiting the European Union and all. What the actual F was he doing all that time he was Brexit Secretary?
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 15,557

    Jeez just have a read of your post. "Remainers control all the major arms of the government." ...except for the three areas most closely associated with Brexit. But those Leavers don't really count because they were not much cop.

    One day you will have to admit (if only to yourself) that Brexit was a huge fecking mistake from start to finish.

    Yet the PM overruled the one that matters and put remainer Robbins in charge. Now she's made it official at least.

    We may disagree in brexit, however, it's fair to say that remainers are in charge of the government. You control the four major power centres, you've sidelined the leavers that matter and presented a deal that no one really wants, not remainers, not the EU and definitely not leavers. Remainers are altogether useless, the big shame is that the leavers in our party have less spine than the remainers have use.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 33,687
    FF43 said:

    Theresa May is the best the Conservatives have got.

    What a terribly depressing thought. Depends on what you mean. I don't think she has much chance of getting a deal, she has clearly failed to sell any potential deal even if she does get one, and the party might collapse in on itself in that situation. But on the other hand having a chance, even small, might buy the Tories time to recover themselves for a GE in a few years, under new leadership, so she both is and isn't the best chance they have got.


    One day you will have to admit (if only to yourself) that Brexit was a huge fecking mistake from start to finish.

    Well, maybe from the middle to the finish, I don't think anything is inevitably bad, only inevitably difficult.
    HYUFD said:



    It is diehard Remainers doing the panicking

    In fairness I am also panicking.

    Good night all. For Tories who want rid of May, there is no benefit to dragging it out. Don't be the Labour moderates, whining and leaking without having the strength to act, even if you would lose.
  • AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 23,219
    Betting on all of the main party leaders being removed within 12 months might be value.
  • FregglesFreggles Posts: 2,853
    rpjs said:

    kle4 said:

    RobD said:



    Because May kept putting off the crunch vote where the Cabinet had to decide what direction to go in.

    And they let her do it. As we've just heard, Davis was apparently sidelined from day one. Indeed, it was a running joke on here about how many times it was leaked that he was thinking of resigning. In his letter he detailed longstanding concerns.
    It might have helped if he'd spent more than four hours in actual negotiations with the EU, what with him being Her Majesty's Principal Secretary of State for Exiting the European Union and all. What the actual F was he doing all that time he was Brexit Secretary?
    Rewriting and deleting his resignation statement over and over?

    Learning what a free trade agreement is?
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 27,593
    FF43 said:

    Theresa May is the best the Conservatives have got.

    You seem to be forgetting TSE :)
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 46,151
    rpjs said:

    Freggles said:

    MaxPB said:

    MaxPB said:

    MaxPB said:

    MaxPB said:

    MaxPB said:

    Our Prime Minister forced to go and beg to the President of France, Brexit truly has humiliated this great nation.

    Brexiteers need to be sterilised.

    Remainers have humiliated this nation. She's begging because her strategy has been awful.
    Oh the irony! The current dismal state of the nation is the fault of Remainers - wow!
    Remainers currently hold number 10, number 11, the home office and the foreign office. The latter at least was a recent change, though I think we can all agree on Boris being useless. However, the point stands. Remainers have controlled all of the major branches of government and are now trying to shirk the responsibility of their poor strategy which had left the UK in the weakest possible position in terms of getting a proper brexit deal.
    If it weren't for Leavers we wouldn't be up this shitty creek without a paddle.
    You mean the 17m people who voted leave?
    I do.
    So you're saying that politicians are accountable to the public?
    ?? I wasn't saying that, although I believe it to be true at a general level.

    Not really sure what point you are trying to make.
    The people voted to leave, the remainers in government are fucking it up and apparently it's the people's fault. At least in your world.
    We should have a referendum on free money next. Make the whole country richer. Unless the haters in government can't implement it, of course.

    Precisely. I don't understand why PB Tories aren't celebrating that the electorate is being taught a lesson that just because they voted for something, it doesn't mean it's a good idea or even possible.

    Or does that rule only apply to lefties promising "magic money trees" and "free owls"?
    We have not even left the EU yet, let alone the single market and customs union and ended free movement.

    It is diehard Remainers forecasting the apocalypse from next March not Leave voters
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 4,715
    MaxPB said:

    Jeez just have a read of your post. "Remainers control all the major arms of the government." ...except for the three areas most closely associated with Brexit. But those Leavers don't really count because they were not much cop.

    One day you will have to admit (if only to yourself) that Brexit was a huge fecking mistake from start to finish.

    Yet the PM overruled the one that matters and put remainer Robbins in charge. Now she's made it official at least.

    We may disagree in brexit, however, it's fair to say that remainers are in charge of the government. You control the four major power centres, you've sidelined the leavers that matter and presented a deal that no one really wants, not remainers, not the EU and definitely not leavers. Remainers are altogether useless, the big shame is that the leavers in our party have less spine than the remainers have use.
    Ah, the stab in the back excuse!

    The Revolution only failed because we were too slow to purge the wreckers and kulaks.

    Now, where did I hear that before...
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 15,557
    rpjs said:

    kle4 said:

    RobD said:



    Because May kept putting off the crunch vote where the Cabinet had to decide what direction to go in.

    And they let her do it. As we've just heard, Davis was apparently sidelined from day one. Indeed, it was a running joke on here about how many times it was leaked that he was thinking of resigning. In his letter he detailed longstanding concerns.
    It might have helped if he'd spent more than four hours in actual negotiations with the EU, what with him being Her Majesty's Principal Secretary of State for Exiting the European Union and all. What the actual F was he doing all that time he was Brexit Secretary?
    Why bother when the PM was telling EU negotiators to listen to remainer Robbins? Davis is a dick and he should have either reigned the minute he was undercut or not taken the job under those conditions, it doesn't change the fact that the remainer PM has put a completely unaccountable remainer civil servant in charge and he's complete fucked it up.
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 27,593
    rpjs said:

    Freggles said:

    MaxPB said:

    MaxPB said:

    MaxPB said:

    MaxPB said:

    MaxPB said:

    Our Prime Minister forced to go and beg to the President of France, Brexit truly has humiliated this great nation.

    Brexiteers need to be sterilised.

    Remainers have humiliated this nation. She's begging because her strategy has been awful.
    Oh the irony! The current dismal state of the nation is the fault of Remainers - wow!
    Remainers currently hold number 10, number 11, the home office and the foreign office. The latter at least was a recent change, though I think we can all agree on Boris being useless. However, the point stands. Remainers have controlled all of the major branches of government and are now trying to shirk the responsibility of their poor strategy which had left the UK in the weakest possible position in terms of getting a proper brexit deal.
    If it weren't for Leavers we wouldn't be up this shitty creek without a paddle.
    You mean the 17m people who voted leave?
    I do.
    So you're saying that politicians are accountable to the public?
    ?? I wasn't saying that, although I believe it to be true at a general level.

    Not really sure what point you are trying to make.
    The people voted to leave, the remainers in government are fucking it up and apparently it's the people's fault. At least in your world.
    We should have a referendum on free money next. Make the whole country richer. Unless the haters in government can't implement it, of course.

    Precisely. I don't understand why PB Tories aren't celebrating that the electorate is being taught a lesson that just because they voted for something, it doesn't mean it's a good idea or even possible.

    Or does that rule only apply to lefties promising "magic money trees" and "free owls"?
    I feel no sympathy. I repeat, I feel no sympathy! The German people chose their fate. That may surprise some people. Don't fool yourself. We didn't force the German people. They gave us a mandate, and now their little throats are being cut!
    - Joseph Goebbels, as portrayed in "Downfall" (2004)
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 4,478
    MaxPB said:

    Jeez just have a read of your post. "Remainers control all the major arms of the government." ...except for the three areas most closely associated with Brexit. But those Leavers don't really count because they were not much cop.

    One day you will have to admit (if only to yourself) that Brexit was a huge fecking mistake from start to finish.

    Yet the PM overruled the one that matters and put remainer Robbins in charge. Now she's made it official at least.

    We may disagree in brexit, however, it's fair to say that remainers are in charge of the government. You control the four major power centres, you've sidelined the leavers that matter and presented a deal that no one really wants, not remainers, not the EU and definitely not leavers. Remainers are altogether useless, the big shame is that the leavers in our party have less spine than the remainers have use.
    The saddest thing is that this has all been so predictable - project Leave's promise evaporating at the first contact with reality; Leavers then thrashing around for ways to blame anyone but themselves.
  • rpjsrpjs Posts: 1,073
    edited August 3
    MaxPB said:

    rpjs said:

    kle4 said:

    RobD said:



    Because May kept putting off the crunch vote where the Cabinet had to decide what direction to go in.

    And they let her do it. As we've just heard, Davis was apparently sidelined from day one. Indeed, it was a running joke on here about how many times it was leaked that he was thinking of resigning. In his letter he detailed longstanding concerns.
    It might have helped if he'd spent more than four hours in actual negotiations with the EU, what with him being Her Majesty's Principal Secretary of State for Exiting the European Union and all. What the actual F was he doing all that time he was Brexit Secretary?
    Why bother when the PM was telling EU negotiators to listen to remainer Robbins? Davis is a dick and he should have either reigned the minute he was undercut or not taken the job under those conditions, it doesn't change the fact that the remainer PM has put a completely unaccountable remainer civil servant in charge and he's complete fucked it up.
    It will be interesting to find out when the archives are opened and the histories written whether May put Robbins in charge to undermine Davis or because Davis turned out to be useless. We may suppose one way or the other according to our Brexit persuasions, but we probably won't really know the truth for years.
  • tysontyson Posts: 4,445
    Foxy said:

    MaxPB said:

    Jeez just have a read of your post. "Remainers control all the major arms of the government." ...except for the three areas most closely associated with Brexit. But those Leavers don't really count because they were not much cop.

    One day you will have to admit (if only to yourself) that Brexit was a huge fecking mistake from start to finish.

    Yet the PM overruled the one that matters and put remainer Robbins in charge. Now she's made it official at least.

    We may disagree in brexit, however, it's fair to say that remainers are in charge of the government. You control the four major power centres, you've sidelined the leavers that matter and presented a deal that no one really wants, not remainers, not the EU and definitely not leavers. Remainers are altogether useless, the big shame is that the leavers in our party have less spine than the remainers have use.
    Ah, the stab in the back excuse!

    The Revolution only failed because we were too slow to purge the wreckers and kulaks.

    Now, where did I hear that before...
    Great post Fox. And observant.

    Ideology is I think a form of mental illness, along the lines of obsession, or compulsion.
  • rpjsrpjs Posts: 1,073

    rpjs said:

    Freggles said:

    MaxPB said:

    MaxPB said:

    MaxPB said:

    MaxPB said:

    MaxPB said:

    Our Prime Minister forced to go and beg to the President of France, Brexit truly has humiliated this great nation.

    Brexiteers need to be sterilised.

    Remainers have humiliated this nation. She's begging because her strategy has been awful.
    Oh the irony! The current dismal state of the nation is the fault of Remainers - wow!
    Remainers currently hold number 10, number 11, the home office and the foreign office. The latter at least was a recent change, though I think we can all agree on Boris being useless. However, the point stands. Remainers have controlled all of the major branches of government and are now trying to shirk the responsibility of their poor strategy which had left the UK in the weakest possible position in terms of getting a proper brexit deal.
    If it weren't for Leavers we wouldn't be up this shitty creek without a paddle.
    You mean the 17m people who voted leave?
    I do.
    So you're saying that politicians are accountable to the public?
    ?? I wasn't saying that, although I believe it to be true at a general level.

    Not really sure what point you are trying to make.
    The people voted to leave, the remainers in government are fucking it up and apparently it's the people's fault. At least in your world.
    We should have a referendum on free money next. Make the whole country richer. Unless the haters in government can't implement it, of course.

    Precisely. I don't understand why PB Tories aren't celebrating that the electorate is being taught a lesson that just because they voted for something, it doesn't mean it's a good idea or even possible.

    Or does that rule only apply to lefties promising "magic money trees" and "free owls"?
    I feel no sympathy. I repeat, I feel no sympathy! The German people chose their fate. That may surprise some people. Don't fool yourself. We didn't force the German people. They gave us a mandate, and now their little throats are being cut!
    - Joseph Goebbels, as portrayed in "Downfall" (2004)
    I'm sure the shade of Goebbels must have been very impressed by how Leave managed to win.
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 15,557

    MaxPB said:

    Jeez just have a read of your post. "Remainers control all the major arms of the government." ...except for the three areas most closely associated with Brexit. But those Leavers don't really count because they were not much cop.

    One day you will have to admit (if only to yourself) that Brexit was a huge fecking mistake from start to finish.

    Yet the PM overruled the one that matters and put remainer Robbins in charge. Now she's made it official at least.

    We may disagree in brexit, however, it's fair to say that remainers are in charge of the government. You control the four major power centres, you've sidelined the leavers that matter and presented a deal that no one really wants, not remainers, not the EU and definitely not leavers. Remainers are altogether useless, the big shame is that the leavers in our party have less spine than the remainers have use.
    The saddest thing is that this has all been so predictable - project Leave's promise evaporating at the first contact with reality; Leavers then thrashing around for ways to blame anyone but themselves.
    Who else is there to blame for the abject state of the negotiations than the remainers in government? Your lot are in charge and they have fucked it up from day one. May, Hammond, Rudd and Robbins are all remainers, they all want to keep us in the EU at any cost and are happy to whatever it takes to make it happen. They would all sell their own grandmothers to the EU to keep us in if that's what Barnier demanded.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 19,763

    MaxPB said:

    Our Prime Minister forced to go and beg to the President of France, Brexit truly has humiliated this great nation.

    Brexiteers need to be sterilised.

    Remainers have humiliated this nation. She's begging because her strategy has been awful.
    Oh the irony! The current dismal state of the nation is the fault of Remainers - wow!
    You don't staff the abattoir with vegetarians and expect to have steak for dinner.
  • GIN1138GIN1138 Posts: 11,904
    I think May goes late September or October. Have thought that since she got to recess.
  • GIN1138GIN1138 Posts: 11,904

    MaxPB said:

    Our Prime Minister forced to go and beg to the President of France, Brexit truly has humiliated this great nation.

    Brexiteers need to be sterilised.

    Remainers have humiliated this nation. She's begging because her strategy has been awful.
    Oh the irony! The current dismal state of the nation is the fault of Remainers - wow!
    You don't staff the abattoir with vegetarians and expect to have steak for dinner.
    :D
  • *** BREXIT REMINDER ***

    1. Cameron legislated for the vote and the vast majority of MPs backed the legislation, even though neither he nor most of them thought leaving the EU was a good idea. The original sin is actually that of the Remainer-in-Chief himself, Cameron, who put what he perceived to be the good of the Tory Party above the good of the country when he put the referendum pledge into his election manifesto - and much good it did him.
    2. The Remainers then somehow contrived to lose the referendum, despite having the backing of the Government, most Conservatives, virtually the whole of the remainder of the political establishment of the United Kingdom save for the DUP and Ukip, sundry European figures (and Barack Obama) in guest roles, and the bulk of influential people in virtually every other field of endeavour in Britain that you can name. Not least because their campaign was so dismal and funereal and bloody awful, and basically not a patch on what Boris Johnson and half-a-dozen of his mates could scribble on the back of an old envelope in about 20 minutes.
    3. Having thus enabled and facilitated the victory of the Leavers - which would never have happened if the Remainers hadn't made it so - a cabinet was formed to deal with the process that was full of people from both sides of the argument, and led by a Remainer. It is she who has been attempting to deal with the fallout from Cameron's terminally incompetent, career-ending political miscalculation.
    4. Oh, and regarding red buses, warnings of the collapse of Western civilization, etc: Leave lied. So did Remain. Everyone bloody lied through their teeth.

    The fingerprints of Remain and Leave backers are all over this entire process from beginning to end. They brought forward the referendum and they've been trying desperately to agree a direction after it. You could say that they're all in this together.

    Given these circumstances it seems more than a little futile to go round and round in endless circles arguing about whose fault all of this is. Joint liability is shared by everyone involved.*


    *except the SNP
This discussion has been closed.